Author Topic: Sabbath, Sunday, and Legalism  (Read 28105 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Hobie

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1964
  • Manna: 17
Re: Sabbath, Sunday, and Legalism
« Reply #35 on: Fri Nov 02, 2012 - 19:18:52 »
The following internet site contains a book concerning the very numerous Sunday laws throughout history.

http://www.archive.org/stream/sundaylegislat00lewi#page/n3/mode/2up

In light of the fact, that Sunday keepers have repeatedly throughout history appealed to the civil authorities to enforce their day of worship upon all, how is it that those who keep the fourth commandment by faith in the word of God, are the ones always accused of being legalistic?

We appeal to all to obey all the commandments of God by faith in His holy word, which admonishes us to do so from one end of the bible to the other.  We appeal to personal conviction and reason alone for this act of faith, and never to civil legislation which Sunday keepers habitually appeal to, and yet we are the ones accused of legalism.  This makes no sense at all.  How can appealing to others to believe and obey the word of God by faith in that word be considered legalism, while appealing to others to keep a day holy which the scriptures never even address as such, and then making laws to force everyone to do so, be considered faith?

While it is certainly possible to keep the seventh day Sabbath for the wrong reason, i.e. legalistically, it is just as certainly possible to keep the commandment by faith in the word of God, and out of love for the author of the same.  The same can not be said though about Sunday observance.  There is no command concerning it in the word of God, nor is it even addressed at all as a day of worship in the same.  Thus it is impossible to keep it by faith in the word of God, or out of love and respect for the authority of His word.  The writer contends that this is exactly why Sunday keepers have appealed to civil legislation to enforce their day upon all throughout history.  That is, because there is no command or authority from God and His scriptures to do so.  Thus the establishment of Sunday as a sacred day by civil law is in fact verily the establishment of legalism.

Yet it is those of us who keep the seventh day by faith alone in the word of God, that are continually accused of being the legalistic.  How unfortunate that child or reverse psychology is so successful among professing adults.

17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. Romans 10:17 (KJV)

If what you believe and preach is not to be found in the word of God, then it is not by faith.  If it is not by faith, then it is of works.  The latter alone is not acceptable to God.  The only works that are acceptable to God, are those performed by faith.  This is of course because they demonstrate ones willing submission to God, and therefore their faith and trust in His word, and trustworthy authority.

31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law. Romans 3:31 (KJV)

True faith does not make void the law of God, but rather establishes the same.
The following internet site contains a book concerning the very numerous Sunday laws throughout history.

http://www.archive.org/stream/sundaylegislat00lewi#page/n3/mode/2up

In light of the fact, that Sunday keepers have repeatedly throughout history appealed to the civil authorities to enforce their day of worship upon all, how is it that those who keep the fourth commandment by faith in the word of God, are the ones always accused of being legalistic?

We appeal to all to obey all the commandments of God by faith in His holy word, which admonishes us to do so from one end of the bible to the other.  We appeal to personal conviction and reason alone for this act of faith, and never to civil legislation which Sunday keepers habitually appeal to, and yet we are the ones accused of legalism.  This makes no sense at all.  How can appealing to others to believe and obey the word of God by faith in that word be considered legalism, while appealing to others to keep a day holy which the scriptures never even address as such, and then making laws to force everyone to do so, be considered faith?

While it is certainly possible to keep the seventh day Sabbath for the wrong reason, i.e. legalistically, it is just as certainly possible to keep the commandment by faith in the word of God, and out of love for the author of the same.  The same can not be said though about Sunday observance.  There is no command concerning it in the word of God, nor is it even addressed at all as a day of worship in the same.  Thus it is impossible to keep it by faith in the word of God, or out of love and respect for the authority of His word.  The writer contends that this is exactly why Sunday keepers have appealed to civil legislation to enforce their day upon all throughout history.  That is, because there is no command or authority from God and His scriptures to do so.  Thus the establishment of Sunday as a sacred day by civil law is in fact verily the establishment of legalism.

Yet it is those of us who keep the seventh day by faith alone in the word of God, that are continually accused of being the legalistic.  How unfortunate that child or reverse psychology is so successful among professing adults.

17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. Romans 10:17 (KJV)

If what you believe and preach is not to be found in the word of God, then it is not by faith.  If it is not by faith, then it is of works.  The latter alone is not acceptable to God.  The only works that are acceptable to God, are those performed by faith.  This is of course because they demonstrate ones willing submission to God, and therefore their faith and trust in His word, and trustworthy authority.

31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law. Romans 3:31 (KJV)

True faith does not make void the law of God, but rather establishes the same.
Amo, if its alright I would like to share this on some of the other sites I am on with your permission.

Offline DaveW

  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 16650
  • Manna: 199
  • Gender: Male
  • carrying Torah scroll
Re: Sabbath, Sunday, and Legalism
« Reply #36 on: Sun Nov 04, 2012 - 09:51:40 »
Hobie, before you go quoting Amo on some other site, why not wait for his answer to my post on the previous page.  If he cannot, then perhaps he is not that good a source:

The bible does not say anywhere that the Sabbath is specifically for the Jews.

Exo 31:16  Therefore the children of Israel [i.e. the Jews] shall keep the Sabbath, to observe the Sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant.
Exo 31:17  It is a sign between me and the children of Israel forever; for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed.'"

I contend that the Sabbath remains but not for gentiles.  HE has yet to respond to a simple couple of verses.

Offline Gerhard Ebersöhn

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1560
  • Manna: 13
Re: Sabbath, Sunday, and Legalism
« Reply #37 on: Thu Nov 15, 2012 - 04:26:47 »
Quote from: LivelyStone


That was before the Messiah. Jesus is the Sabbath and we rest in Him, free from keeping any particular day as separate. If anyone desires to keep the Sabbath, they are free to, but no one is commanded to.


You _quote_, "Jesus is the Sabbath ", and THEN, try say 'we rest ON Him'

Don't be ridiculous, is all I'm saying especially not when you have no Scripture to back up your silliness.



Offline Gerhard Ebersöhn

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1560
  • Manna: 13
Re: Sabbath, Sunday, and Legalism
« Reply #38 on: Thu Nov 15, 2012 - 04:36:07 »
Quote from: Amo on February 13, 2012, 05:36:03 PM
The bible does not say anywhere that the Sabbath is specifically for the Jews.

Exo 31:16  Therefore the children of Israel [i.e. the Jews] shall keep the Sabbath, to observe the Sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant.
Exo 31:17  It is a sign between me and the children of Israel forever; for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed.'"


GE:

"Israel" is NOT, " the Jews". That is 'your Bible'. I do not accept 'your Bible', but reject it with all due disrespect.


Offline Gerhard Ebersöhn

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1560
  • Manna: 13
Re: Sabbath, Sunday, and Legalism
« Reply #39 on: Thu Nov 15, 2012 - 04:44:38 »
Dave W:

>>I contend that the Sabbath remains but not for gentiles.<<

GE:

Sure: "not for gentiles". "THEREFORE ... BECAUSE JESUS HAD GIVEN THEM REST ... for The People of God, remains valid keeping of the Sabbath Day, _He_ having entered [upon it] into his own Rest as God into his [did] ... God _THUS_ concerning the Seventh Day having spoken: And God the day The Seventh Day, from all his works, rested."


Christian Forums and Message Board

Re: Sabbath, Sunday, and Legalism
« Reply #39 on: Thu Nov 15, 2012 - 04:44:38 »



Offline DaveW

  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 16650
  • Manna: 199
  • Gender: Male
  • carrying Torah scroll
Re: Sabbath, Sunday, and Legalism
« Reply #40 on: Thu Nov 15, 2012 - 06:43:44 »
'Gentiles' is not defined as "people of God." It is defined as Non Israelites (in modern vernacular non-Jews).   

The 'people of God' consists of the physical descendants of Jacob, those who have joined the Israelites in proselytization and New Covenant believing Gentiles.

Acts 15 clearly exempts the New Covenant believing Gentiles from Torah observance, including the Sabbath.

Offline chosenone

  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 30932
  • Manna: 538
  • Gender: Female
Re: Sabbath, Sunday, and Legalism
« Reply #41 on: Thu Nov 15, 2012 - 07:17:53 »

Lively Stone

  • Guest
Re: Sabbath, Sunday, and Legalism
« Reply #42 on: Thu Nov 15, 2012 - 09:28:34 »
Quote from: LivelyStone


That was before the Messiah. Jesus is the Sabbath and we rest in Him, free from keeping any particular day as separate. If anyone desires to keep the Sabbath, they are free to, but no one is commanded to.


You _quote_, "Jesus is the Sabbath ", and THEN, try say 'we rest ON Him'

Don't be ridiculous, is all I'm saying especially not when you have no Scripture to back up your silliness.

Nothing I say in earnest according to the word is ridiculous.

You find rest in Jesus Christ. Jesus said you would:

Matthew 11:29
Take my yoke upon you. Let me teach you, because I am humble and gentle at heart, and you will find rest for your souls.

That rest is all it implies in terms of fruitfulness and dominion, reigning, ruling, producing that which is worthwhile and satisfying in life. That is the secret of life. This is why Jesus said, "If you try to hang on to your life, you will lose it. But if you give up your life for my sake, you will save it." (Matthew 16:25; Mark 8:35; Luke 9:24).

Jesus has offered us His rest. He has fulfilled, completed the law concerning the Sabbath. Now, have you received His rest?


Offline Gerhard Ebersöhn

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1560
  • Manna: 13
Re: Sabbath, Sunday, and Legalism
« Reply #43 on: Thu Nov 15, 2012 - 14:10:13 »
Quote from: TN.Frank
The Sabbath was also brought into being BEFORE any Sin had entered into the World.
Genesis 1
the evening [late] and the morning [early] the First Day :5b
the evening [late] and the morning [early] the Second Day :8b
the evening [late] and the morning [early] the Third Day :13b
the evening [late] and the morning [early] the Fourth Day :19b
the evening [late] and the morning [early] the the Fifth Day :23b
the evening [late] and the morning [early] the Sixth Day :31b
the cool of the day … the Seventh Day …

“In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made him … male and female created them and blessed them … in the day they were created 5:1,2 … God saw everything that He had made, and behold, it was very good 1:31 … And the LORD GOD took man and put him into the garden of Eden … 2:15 … And they heard the VOICE of the LORD GOD [Jesus Christ, Saviour] walking in the garden in the cool OF THE DAY …” 3:8 IMMEDIATELY AFTER they had sinned the very past “DAY that  God created man”.

“God on the Seventh Day ENDED his work which He had made IN THAT God on the Seventh Day from ALL his work which God created, RESTED …” in Jesus Christ, through Jesus Christ, by Jesus Christ and FOR, Jesus Christ in HAVING WORKED SALVATION THAT VERY “SABBATH DAY” that God RESTED, Genesis 2 to Genesis 3 its last verse!

Offline Gerhard Ebersöhn

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1560
  • Manna: 13
Re: Sabbath, Sunday, and Legalism
« Reply #44 on: Thu Nov 15, 2012 - 14:52:52 »
Quote from: TN.Frank
Nothing I say in earnest according to the word is ridiculous.[/size][/size]
 You find rest in Jesus Christ. Jesus said you would:


  Matthew 11:29
 Take my yoke upon you. Let me teach you, because I am humble and gentle at heart, and you will find rest for your souls.
 
 That rest is all it implies in terms of fruitfulness and dominion, reigning, ruling, producing that which is worthwhile and satisfying in life. That is the secret of life. This is why Jesus said, "If you try to hang on to your life, you will lose it. But if you give up your life for my sake, you will save it." (Matthew 16:25; Mark 8:35; Luke 9:24).
 
 Jesus has offered us His rest. He has fulfilled, completed the law concerning the Sabbath. Now, have you received His rest?


Now … forget about ‘me’. It’s not about me or you or us trying to hang on to our life. We’re not talking about that right here or now. Don’t change the subject. The subject is whether or not Jesus gave a NEW LAW IN HIMSELF that includes or excludes “SABBATHS’ FEAST OF CHRIST”, ASSEMBLING TOGETHER OF CHRISTIAN BELIEVERS. In other words, stop preaching now. How can you preach if you do not preach the SCRIPTURES truthfully? But make void the Word of Jesus Christ whom “God gave to be Head over all things [the Sabbath Day included] to the CHURCH WHICH IS HIS BODY”, SO THAT “THEREFORE – Jesus having had given them Rest – KEEPING OF THE SABBATH DAY REMAINS FOR THE PEOPLE OF GOD.”


« Last Edit: Thu Nov 15, 2012 - 14:58:30 by Gerhard Ebersöhn »

Offline Gerhard Ebersöhn

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1560
  • Manna: 13
Re: Sabbath, Sunday, and Legalism
« Reply #45 on: Thu Nov 15, 2012 - 15:11:36 »
'Gentiles' is not defined as "people of God." It is defined as Non Israelites (in modern vernacular non-Jews).   

The 'people of God' consists of the physical descendants of Jacob, those who have joined the Israelites in proselytization and New Covenant believing Gentiles.

Acts 15 clearly exempts the New Covenant believing Gentiles from Torah observance, including the Sabbath.

Which words in Acts 15 clearly exempts the New Covenant believing Gentiles from Torah observance, including the Sabbath?

Place them here ... let's see them ...




HRoberson

  • Guest
Re: Sabbath, Sunday, and Legalism
« Reply #46 on: Thu Nov 15, 2012 - 15:20:26 »
The results of the Jerusalem Council.
« Last Edit: Thu Nov 15, 2012 - 15:37:55 by HRoberson »

Offline Gerhard Ebersöhn

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1560
  • Manna: 13
Re: Sabbath, Sunday, and Legalism
« Reply #47 on: Thu Nov 15, 2012 - 15:23:12 »
No!

You couldn't find it ... don't shove your methods over to me to clean up the mess you made.

YOU CANNOT QUOTE THE WORDS. THEY ARE NOT THERE.



HRoberson

  • Guest
Re: Sabbath, Sunday, and Legalism
« Reply #48 on: Thu Nov 15, 2012 - 15:26:35 »
I feel no compulsion to quote it to you. You can go read it for yourself.

Offline Gerhard Ebersöhn

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1560
  • Manna: 13
Re: Sabbath, Sunday, and Legalism
« Reply #49 on: Thu Nov 15, 2012 - 15:30:02 »
Comment deleted.
« Last Edit: Thu Nov 15, 2012 - 19:07:52 by larry2 »

Offline MeMyself

  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 15980
  • Manna: 382
  • Gender: Female
Re: Sabbath, Sunday, and Legalism
« Reply #50 on: Thu Nov 15, 2012 - 15:35:41 »
« Last Edit: Thu Nov 15, 2012 - 19:08:45 by larry2 »

Offline Gerhard Ebersöhn

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1560
  • Manna: 13
Re: Sabbath, Sunday, and Legalism
« Reply #51 on: Thu Nov 15, 2012 - 15:40:49 »
'MeMyself', "yuck" for 'MeMyself'.

HRoberson

  • Guest
Re: Sabbath, Sunday, and Legalism
« Reply #52 on: Thu Nov 15, 2012 - 15:43:44 »
My, you get a little testy when we won't play your game, don't you?


If you don't like the Jerusalem Council letter, perhaps you might refer to Peter's sheet. You can look that up for yourself too.


And if that isn't clear enough for you, you might take a stroll through Romans.


Have a nice day.

Offline MeMyself

  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 15980
  • Manna: 382
  • Gender: Female
Re: Sabbath, Sunday, and Legalism
« Reply #53 on: Thu Nov 15, 2012 - 16:06:56 »
'MeMyself', "yuck" for 'MeMyself'.

rudeness is not a fruit of the spirit.  There is no need to be rude to make a point...if you have one that can stand on its own, that is.   ::pondering::
 
 ::eatingpopcorn:

Lively Stone

  • Guest
Re: Sabbath, Sunday, and Legalism
« Reply #54 on: Thu Nov 15, 2012 - 17:42:41 »
Quote from: Lively Stone
Nothing I say in earnest according to the word is ridiculous.
You find rest in Jesus Christ. Jesus said you would:

  Matthew 11:29
 Take my yoke upon you. Let me teach you, because I am humble and gentle at heart, and you will find rest for your souls.
 
 That rest is all it implies in terms of fruitfulness and dominion, reigning, ruling, producing that which is worthwhile and satisfying in life. That is the secret of life. This is why Jesus said, "If you try to hang on to your life, you will lose it. But if you give up your life for my sake, you will save it." (Matthew 16:25; Mark 8:35; Luke 9:24).
 
 Jesus has offered us His rest. He has fulfilled, completed the law concerning the Sabbath. Now, have you received His rest?


Now … forget about ‘me’. It’s not about me or you or us trying to hang on to our life. We’re not talking about that right here or now. Don’t change the subject. The subject is whether or not Jesus gave a NEW LAW IN HIMSELF that includes or excludes “SABBATHS’ FEAST OF CHRIST”, ASSEMBLING TOGETHER OF CHRISTIAN BELIEVERS. In other words, stop preaching now. How can you preach if you do not preach the SCRIPTURES truthfully? But make void the Word of Jesus Christ whom “God gave to be Head over all things [the Sabbath Day included] to the CHURCH WHICH IS HIS BODY”, SO THAT “THEREFORE – Jesus having had given them Rest – KEEPING OF THE SABBATH DAY REMAINS FOR THE PEOPLE OF GOD.”

Scripture?

Offline Gerhard Ebersöhn

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1560
  • Manna: 13
Re: Sabbath, Sunday, and Legalism
« Reply #55 on: Fri Nov 16, 2012 - 00:15:31 »
Quote from: LivelyStone


Scripture?





You cannot distinguish them?  You don't recognize them?

Then you do not know the Scriptures.

And make more obvious the obvious, that you are the one with NO Scripture(s) for grounds or back-up or refuge.

Sorry indeed.





Lively Stone

  • Guest
Re: Sabbath, Sunday, and Legalism
« Reply #56 on: Fri Nov 16, 2012 - 00:36:07 »
Quote from: LivelyStone


Scripture?





You cannot distinguish them?  You don't recognize them?

Then you do not know the Scriptures.

And make more obvious the obvious, that you are the one with NO Scripture(s) for grounds or back-up or refuge.

Sorry indeed.

I know scripture, and I use scripture to support myself. You need to provide quoted passages and their references, as asked, instead of blustering about.

larry2

  • Guest
Re: Sabbath, Sunday, and Legalism
« Reply #57 on: Fri Nov 16, 2012 - 02:42:24 »
We all need to settle down and at least act like Christians so that the world can distinguish us apart from them. Since this is a Christian forum, if you've something to say in making a point, scripture would be an asset in letting the rest of know what the point is. Thanks.
 ::smile::

Offline chosenone

  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 30932
  • Manna: 538
  • Gender: Female
Re: Sabbath, Sunday, and Legalism
« Reply #58 on: Fri Nov 16, 2012 - 02:59:09 »
Hey hey I have a scriptue Larry. Many here ignore it and condemn others anyway ::shrug:: but still its worth another try.
col 3v16
"Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath"
.
  NO ONE means NO ONE is to judge others as to whether they keep one day as special or not. Cant be clearer can it.  ::disco::
« Last Edit: Fri Nov 16, 2012 - 07:21:34 by chosenone »

larry2

  • Guest
Re: Sabbath, Sunday, and Legalism
« Reply #59 on: Fri Nov 16, 2012 - 03:11:25 »
Quote from: Chosenone
Hey hey I have a scriptue Larry. Many here ignore it and condemn others anyway  but still its worth another try.
col 3v16
Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath.
  NO ONE means NO ONE is to judge others as to whether they keep one day as special or not. Cant be clearer can it.
 
That was good dear sister; I know where you're coming from and I don't have to wonder which scripture you want me to guess at.

How about Romans 14:3  Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth: for God hath received him.

Romans 14:6  He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.

Offline DaveW

  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 16650
  • Manna: 199
  • Gender: Male
  • carrying Torah scroll
Re: Sabbath, Sunday, and Legalism
« Reply #60 on: Fri Nov 16, 2012 - 06:12:22 »
Quote from: DaveW
Acts 15 clearly exempts the New Covenant believing Gentiles from Torah observance, including the Sabbath.
Which words in Acts 15 clearly exempts the New Covenant believing Gentiles from Torah observance, including the Sabbath?

Place them here ... let's see them ...

You got it:

Acts 15 (NASB)
13 After they had stopped speaking, James answered, saying, "Brethren, listen to me.
14 Simon has related how God first concerned Himself about taking from among the Gentiles a people for His name.
15 With this the words of the Prophets agree, just as it is written,
16 'AFTER THESE THINGS I will return,
AND I WILL REBUILD THE TABERNACLE OF DAVID WHICH HAS FALLEN,
AND I WILL REBUILD ITS RUINS,
AND I WILL RESTORE IT,
17 SO THAT THE REST OF MANKIND MAY SEEK THE LORD,
AND ALL THE GENTILES WHO ARE CALLED BY MY NAME,'
18 SAYS THE LORD, WHO MAKES THESE THINGS KNOWN FROM LONG AGO.
19 Therefore it is my judgment that we do not trouble those who are turning to God from among the Gentiles,
20 but that we write to them that they abstain from things contaminated by idols and from fornication and from what is strangled and from blood.
21 For Moses from ancient generations has in every city those who preach him, since he is read in the synagogues every Sabbath."
22 Then it seemed good to the apostles and the elders, with the whole church, to choose men from among them to send to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas-Judas called Barsabbas, and Silas, leading men among the brethren,
23 and they sent this letter by them, "The apostles and the brethren who are elders, to the brethren in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia who are from the Gentiles, greetings.
24 "Since we have heard that some of our number to whom we gave no instruction have disturbed you with their words, unsettling your souls,
25it seemed good to us, having become of one mind, to select men to send to you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul,
26 men who have risked their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.
27"Therefore we have sent Judas and Silas, who themselves will also report the same things by word of mouth.
28 "For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to lay upon you no greater burden than these essentials:
29 that you abstain from things sacrificed to idols and from blood and from things strangled and from fornication; if you keep yourselves free from such things, you will do well. Farewell."

Those 4 laws were the ONLY things absolutely required of Gentile believers.  Note the "no greater burden than these essentials" phrase.

Yes the sabbath is mentioned but it is somewhat of a veiled suggestion for gentiles to go to the synagogues to hear Moses and understand the Mosaic covenant. (as it is foundational to the New Covenant) but it comes no where near a command.

Offline chosenone

  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 30932
  • Manna: 538
  • Gender: Female
Re: Sabbath, Sunday, and Legalism
« Reply #61 on: Fri Nov 16, 2012 - 07:22:49 »
Quote from: Chosenone
Hey hey I have a scriptue Larry. Many here ignore it and condemn others anyway  but still its worth another try.
col 3v16
Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath.
  NO ONE means NO ONE is to judge others as to whether they keep one day as special or not. Cant be clearer can it.
 
That was good dear sister; I know where you're coming from and I don't have to wonder which scripture you want me to guess at.

How about Romans 14:3  Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth: for God hath received him.

Romans 14:6  He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.
 
yes let everything that we do, be done for Gods glory. ::smile::

Offline Gerhard Ebersöhn

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1560
  • Manna: 13
Re: Sabbath, Sunday, and Legalism
« Reply #62 on: Fri Nov 16, 2012 - 10:40:51 »
... what you call the words of Acts 15 and what they are, are different things altogether ... Is English, English, or no?

And this you call "words in Acts 15” that “clearly exempts the New Covenant believing Gentiles from ... observance … [of] the Sabbath?"

Is "Sabbath" perhaps " things contaminated by idols and fornication” or  is Sabbath observance equivalence of “things strangled” or “blood"?

If one must believe DaveW, yes! "If you keep yourselves free from such things, you will not keep the Sabbath", is what DaveW says. DaveW says  if you keep the Sabbath [or just believe the Seventh Day Sabbath] it means you yourselves partake in strangling things to death and in the eating of it; that in fact you practice fornication!

God, your Sabbath is muder by strangling and fornication; DaveW says so!  DaveW says that is what your earliest Church practiced until the Jerusalem Council decided against such things for Christians and chose Sunday, because "Acts 15 clearly exempts the New Covenant believing Gentiles from ... observance", of "... the Sabbath"!

God from now on I will never again believe or observe your Sabbath Day, because DaveW has given me understanding of true Christian values.

And DaveW and his conscience lived happily ever after.



 

Offline Gerhard Ebersöhn

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1560
  • Manna: 13
Re: Sabbath, Sunday, and Legalism
« Reply #63 on: Fri Nov 16, 2012 - 11:02:28 »
Quote from: DaveW
Those 4 laws were the ONLY things absolutely required of Gentile believers.  Note the "no greater burden than these essentials" phrase.

Nothing of the sort was ever “required of Gentile believers”; ANY Christian was FORBIDDEN SUCH PAGAN AND IDOLATROUS PRACTICES!  "… no greater burden than these NECESSARY FORBIDDEN things for ANY Christian, FORBIDDEN are idol sacrifices; FORBIDDEN is idolatrous blood; FORBIDDEN is (idolatrous ritual) fornication.” 

Even the ‘rendering’ you use, is rape of the Written Word!

Even your counting is as false as any of the forbidden atrocities, you including God’s Holy Sabbath’s observance a fourth atrocity among the other three!

Are you not ashamed of yourself, DaveW?!
« Last Edit: Fri Nov 16, 2012 - 11:07:19 by Gerhard Ebersöhn »

Offline DaveW

  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 16650
  • Manna: 199
  • Gender: Male
  • carrying Torah scroll
Re: Sabbath, Sunday, and Legalism
« Reply #64 on: Fri Nov 16, 2012 - 11:03:39 »
GE - you are taking one of the pivotal moments in early church history of great doctrinal import and are turning it into theater of the absurd.

Did you not understand the text?  Out of all 613 Torah commands, the only ones Gentiles are REQUIRED to keep are those 4:

No idols
No illicit sex
No blood
No eating strangled meat

It is just that simple.

If you think these verses are saying something else, please enlighten us.

You do realize that I keep a Saturday sabbath, right?  (sundown friday to sundown saturday)
« Last Edit: Fri Nov 16, 2012 - 11:08:25 by DaveW »

Offline Gerhard Ebersöhn

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1560
  • Manna: 13
Re: Sabbath, Sunday, and Legalism
« Reply #65 on: Fri Nov 16, 2012 - 11:19:38 »
“613 Torah commands” ‘understood’ in “the text”, “Acts 15”?!
Speak of the “theater of the absurd”!

Offline Gerhard Ebersöhn

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1560
  • Manna: 13
Re: Sabbath, Sunday, and Legalism
« Reply #66 on: Fri Nov 16, 2012 - 11:22:23 »
I do not care which day you or anyone else in the world "keep a Saturday sabbath, right?  (sundown friday to sundown saturday)" OR NOT!

What is WRITTEN is all that interests me.



Online Jaime

  • (Pronounced Hi-Me, not Ja-Me)
  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 38253
  • Manna: 796
  • Gender: Male
  • I AM A DEPLORABLE
Re: Sabbath, Sunday, and Legalism
« Reply #67 on: Fri Nov 16, 2012 - 11:24:12 »
Dave, In verse 21 of Acts Chapter 15, there is a phrase injected there after the 4 requirements were listed:
"For Moses from generations of old hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath."

It appears the 4 requirements given were a compromise for initial conversion, BUT the unstated implication seems to be that since Moses (the Law) is preached in the synagogues in every city, these folks will naturally absorb the rest.  Why make their lives miserable now. Let's make these 4 the initial filter.

That may not be the case, but it is a curious insertion in my opinion. Would like to hear other thoughts about it.
 

Offline Gerhard Ebersöhn

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1560
  • Manna: 13
Re: Sabbath, Sunday, and Legalism
« Reply #68 on: Fri Nov 16, 2012 - 11:46:54 »
I don't find anything curious in or about the whole of Acts 15.

The Sabbath's observance is the taken for granted in all of 'apostolic Christianity'. It's like The Body's breathing.

Send this letter and have it read in the whole world before every Congregation ... the Sabbath's Going-to Church all over the earth [then known] affords the opportunity.

We, the apostles do not even have any prescription for you our brethren, on the issue of circumcision - the original reason we have had this council.

All we want to make clear to our new Gentile brothers is to stay away from their former ways!

Galatians 4 addresses the very same tendency among the rookies; they were getting homesick. They were steeped in the ways of their forefathers.

This was the problem with Christianity from the word go. IT HAS BEEN THE SAME PROBLEM TO THIS DAY:

PAGAN IDOLATRY! On the hidden individual side, fornication; on the open congregational side, Sun and Sunday worship.

Behind every other ailment of the Church lie these, too horrible to be mentioned so crudely, SINS!





 












Offline DaveW

  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 16650
  • Manna: 199
  • Gender: Male
  • carrying Torah scroll
Re: Sabbath, Sunday, and Legalism
« Reply #69 on: Fri Nov 16, 2012 - 11:46:59 »
“613 Torah commands” ‘understood’ in “the text”, “Acts 15”?!
Speak of the “theater of the absurd”!

James at this point had 2 hats he was wearing - he was the senior elder of the Jerusalem congregation (the Catholics call him "bishop of Jerusalem")  plus he was a highly noted Torah scholar that taught in the schools of the Pharisees. (probably Shammai's school)

So he would have been VERY FAMILIAR with the 613 Torah commands. (3 of which deal specifically with the Sabbath)  There are 248 positive (thou shalt ...) and 365 negative (thou shalt not ...)

Of course they can be broken down other ways including by subject matter. For a basic list of positive and negative: http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Judaism/613_mitzvot.html

History my good man!  It is important!