Author Topic: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.  (Read 7427 times)

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Offline winsome

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Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
« Reply #210 on: Sat Jan 11, 2020 - 10:38:47 »

 
Did God Sanctify the Cinema, or the Thursday? I agree that each day was unique. God only rested, Blessed and Sanctified the 7th day, at least according to Him.
God sanctified the 7th day of creation week. Scripture does not say that he blessed and sanctified every 7th day.
Can you show me where scripture says that God sanctified every 7th day?


I'm simply trying to find out where you got this teaching that God's Sanctification and Blessing only lasted one day. I have searched the scriptures and can find nothing to support this doctrine of yours, and you provide nothing but your own words.
Gen.2:2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.

3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

God sanctified the 7th day of creation week. Scripture does not say that he blessed and sanctified every 7th day.
The 7th day of creation week lasted one day.
Is the 7th day of creation week still happening? 
No! It was a past event that God sanctified. 
Scripture says God sanctified it. Not God sanctified them.


Ex. 16:22 And it came to pass, that on the sixth day they gathered twice as much bread, two omers for one man: and all the rulers of the congregation came and told Moses.
23 And he said unto them, This is that which the LORD hath said, To morrow is the rest of the holy sabbath unto the LORD: bake that which ye will bake to day, and seethe that ye will seethe; and that which remaineth over lay up for you to be kept until the morning.

Where do you get the religious doctrine that God's Holy Sabbath wasn't Holy until Israel forgot the God of Joseph?

You keep inserting straw men arguments.
I never said that Israel forgot the God of Jacob.
They did not forget to keep a holy sabbath because there was no holy sabbath to remember. 

Where before Ex 16:23 did God tell anyone to keep a 7th day sabbath?
Why was the Sabbath Rest Holy? Isn't it because God Blessed it, and Sanctified it?
It became a holy sabbath when God made it a holy sabbath for Israel.

Do you have any other example of a Sanctification of God that lasted only one day? Or in your religion, is this the only time God's Sanctification only lasted one day?
John 10:36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?

Was this another example of God's Sanctification only lasting one day?

If we can become holy we can become unholy.
You may be right, I just need more than your own words. Something from God's Word, just one scripture that I can see where God's Blessings and Sanctifications only lasted one day. Just one.
I just need one scripture that says that God commanded anyone to keep a 7th Day sabbath before he gave it to Israel in Ex 16:23. Just one.
Give me one example of anyone keeping a 7th day sabbath before Ex 16:23

#194;
One pathetic comment. Is that it?

I didn't falsely accuse you of anything. You are preaching that when God Blessed and Sanctified His Holy 7th Day, it only lasted one day. I'm trying to find where in scriptures you find this doctrine.
One day is one day.
One day only lasts one day by definition.

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Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
« Reply #210 on: Sat Jan 11, 2020 - 10:38:47 »

Offline Michael2012

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Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
« Reply #211 on: Sat Jan 11, 2020 - 11:00:49 »
GB, can you kindly point to all the scriptures where the commandments, statutes, ordinances, judgments of God can be found, that you consider the law of God (besides the Sabbath day) that He gave for all men to keep, so the board can consider and examine them?

I'm sure you would claim to know them and keep them. 

Offline Michael2012

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Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
« Reply #212 on: Sat Jan 11, 2020 - 11:24:25 »
Quote from: GB
Did the Jews have an advantage? Yes, much in every way, because God did give HIS Laws to them.

If your statement is true, can you tell us how that is an advantage and much in every way?

Offline Michael2012

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Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
« Reply #213 on: Sat Jan 11, 2020 - 11:31:40 »
16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:

17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

Religious traditions of men are shadows of nothing.

Regarding that passage in Colossians 2, clearly those mentioned in verse 16 which has to do with eating, drinking, of holy days, new moons and even sabbath days are said in verse 17 to be a shadow of things to come, the body of which is of Christ. If a shadow is of the body of Christ, I am sure there is no debate that it cannot be spoken of as something bad or evil.

Offline Michael2012

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Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
« Reply #214 on: Sat Jan 11, 2020 - 11:37:42 »
Quote from: GB
Rom. 2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:

29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

With regards that scriptures you quoted in one of your post, let me ask you this question:

To whom did God made a covenant with during the time of Moses? Was it with the outward Jews or the inward Jews?

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Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
« Reply #214 on: Sat Jan 11, 2020 - 11:37:42 »



Offline Michael2012

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Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
« Reply #215 on: Sat Jan 11, 2020 - 11:42:47 »
Quote from: GB
I am striving to enter the narrow gate.

If you are striving to enter the narrow gate, that means you know where the narrow gate is. Tell us where is the narrow gate that you strive to enter?

Offline Michael2012

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Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
« Reply #216 on: Sat Jan 11, 2020 - 11:58:14 »
Quote from: GB
Rom. 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

You quoted the scriptures above in one of your post. I have some questions for you.

Are you under the law or not?

If you are under the law, would you say you will be judged by the law?

If you are under the law, would you say you are bound by the law?

If you are under the law, if you keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, would you say you are guilty of all?

If you are not under the law, would you say you are free from the law and are not bound by it?

If you are not under the law, how is it that you are not under it?
« Last Edit: Sat Jan 11, 2020 - 12:08:03 by Michael2012 »

Offline Michael2012

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Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
« Reply #217 on: Sat Jan 11, 2020 - 12:03:21 »
Quote from: GB
I have sin in me no doubt. I am a sinner. And Jesus created His Laws and Sabbaths for me. He created his Sabbath "FOR ME".

You said this in one of your post.

James said "whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all."

Do you believe that? I know you'd say you do.

If you believe that, and you admit you are a sinner and have sin no doubt, then if you lie, aren't you then also guilty of all, including the 4th of the 10 commandments?

Offline GB

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Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
« Reply #218 on: Sat Jan 11, 2020 - 13:42:06 »
 author=winsome link=topic=74624.msg1055154448#msg1055154448 date=1578760727]
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God sanctified the 7th day of creation week. Scripture does not say that he blessed and sanctified every 7th day.
Can you show me where scripture says that God sanctified every 7th day?

There is only one 7th day of the week and God Blessed and sanctified it.  It doesn't imply, suggest or otherwise say that this blessing or Sanctification only lasted for one day. You are making that part up.

Ex. 16:23 And he said unto them, This is that which the LORD hath said, To morrow is the rest of the holy sabbath unto the LORD:

Still Blessed and Still Sanctified.

Ex. 20:8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:

10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:

11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

Still Blessed and Still Sanctified. This is saying the Lord, that means the Christ, Blessed and Hallowed the "SABBATH DAY" in creation. There is only One God, and He Blessed and Sanctified HIS "Sabbath" Day, defined as the 7th day of the week. Your preaching that there is only one "Sabbath" that was Blessed is foolishness.

There is no mention, suggestion, implication or teaching here that God created only one "Sabbath" day. There is a "SABBATH" day in every week. Six days of every week are work days, the 7th is the Sabbath of the Lord from Creation, as it is written.

Heb. 4:9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God. 10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his. 11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.

Still Blessed, still Sanctified. And religious men are still preaching against it.


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God sanctified the 7th day of creation week. Scripture does not say that he blessed and sanctified every 7th day.

Scriptures teach He Blessed His Holy Sabbath, defined as the 7th day of the week. There is a "SABBATH" every week, as it is written.

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The 7th day of creation week lasted one day.

There is a 7th day every week as God created. The 7th Day is Blessed and Sanctified. I'm pretty sure God knew there would be more than one 7th day.

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Is the 7th day of creation week still happening? 

There is a 7th Day in every week, and it was designed by God to be that way. Your preaching that He only Hallowed the very first Sabbath is a doctrine of men, not God.  HE said He Sanctified and Blessed the 7th day. I have no reason to believe HE lied to me. Moses said He Blessed the "Sabbath" Day in creation. I have no reason to doubt the Spirit of Christ which was on him.

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No! It was a past event that God sanctified. 
Scripture says God sanctified it. Not God sanctified them.

There is only one 7th day per week. Why would God Sanctify "them" if there is only one day a week that He Blessed? Each week, at creation, starts with the first day, and ends with the 7th. God said He Blessed the 7th day. He didn't say He Blessed only the first 7th day, or the last 7th day. HE said He blessed the 7th day. There is only one 7th day of the week.


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You keep inserting straw men arguments.
I never said that Israel forgot the God of Jacob.
They did not forget to keep a holy sabbath because there was no holy sabbath to remember.
 

That is your religion, but that is not what God told Moses to tell the Children of Abraham.

Ex. 20:11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

This is exactly the same thing this same Lord said in Genesis.

Gen. 2:3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

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Where before Ex 16:23 did God tell anyone to keep a 7th day sabbath? It became a holy sabbath when God made it a holy sabbath for Israel.

It was the Sabbath Rest of the Lord at creation, at least according to God's Word.

Gen. 26:5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

Did God spell out HIS Laws for us that Abraham followed before Exodus? No, but Abraham did have God's Laws and Commandments. At least according to the God of the Bible.

Gen. 7:1 And the LORD said unto Noah, Come thou and all thy house into the ark; for thee have I seen righteous before me in this generation.

2 Of every clean beast thou shalt take to thee by sevens, the male and his female: and of beasts that are not clean by two, the male and his female.

5 And Noah did according unto all that the LORD commanded him.

Did God spell out His creation of clean, and unclean animals before Leviticus? No, but Noah knew them.

Show me one scripture where God told us before Leviticus His definition of Clean animals, and unclean animals. Just one. You can't because it doesn't exist. Yet Gods Creation of clean and unclean did exist. He just didn't define it until Leviticus.

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If we can become holy we can become unholy.I just need one scripture that says that God commanded anyone to keep a 7th Day sabbath before he gave it to Israel in Ex 16:23. Just one.

So when  did the Holy, Blessed and Sanctified 7th day become unsanctified, unblessed, and unholy? Show me just one scripture.

Gen. 12:17 And the LORD plagued Pharaoh and his house with great plagues because of Sarai Abram's wife.

18 And Pharaoh called Abram, and said, What is this that thou hast done unto me? why didst thou not tell me that she was thy wife?

19 Why saidst thou, She is my sister? so I might have taken her to me to wife: now therefore behold thy wife, take her, and go thy way.

Show me just one scripture where God showed Pharaoh His Law regarding Adultery? Just one. Show me one scriptures where God showed Noah His creation of clean and unclean animals. Just one.

Gen. 20:4 But Abimelech had not come near her: and he said, Lord, wilt thou slay also a righteous nation?

5 Said he not unto me, She is my sister? and she, even she herself said, He is my brother: in the integrity of my heart and innocency of my hands have I done this.

6 And God said unto him in a dream, Yea, I know that thou didst this in the integrity of thy heart; for I also withheld thee from sinning against me: therefore suffered I thee not to touch her.

Show me just one scriptures where God showed Abimelech the sin of adultery and the wages for that sin?

Gen. 22:8 And Abraham said, My son, God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering: so they went both of them together.

Show me just one scripture where God told Abraham about the "Lamb of God".

And yet these Laws of God, Adultery, the difference between clean, and unclean animals, even Passover, was known to these men.

Mainstream Preachers are always boasting about "you keep one, you must keep them all". Where is your scriptural evidence that God's Laws included adultery, but not killing, not stealing, not lying, not loving your neighbor as thyself. You have none, nothing. Just religious traditions of man.

So for me, when the God of the Bible says " Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws," I already know what those Laws are because God defined these laws for me in Exodus and Leviticus.

And when God tells Noah to load clean and unclean animals, I know what they are because God defined this part of His Law in Leviticus.

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Give me one example of anyone keeping a 7th day sabbath before Ex 16:23

Just because God waited until Exodus and Leviticus to spell out His Laws, His Commandments, and His Statutes,  to us, doesn't mean they weren't there. If a man believes in the God of the Bible, they were there.

Ex. 16:27 And it came to pass, that there went out some of the people on the seventh day for to gather, and they found none.

28 And the LORD said unto Moses, How long refuse ye to keep my commandments and my laws?

How can this be? Can you show me one Scripture where God details what HIS Laws and Commandments are before Ex. 16? And yet God says they broke them all.

Except the Levitical Priesthood which, according to Paul, was "ADDED" till the Seed should Come.

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One pathetic comment. Is that it?

I don't think the Christ's New Covenant is pathetic. I think religious men who preach a different new covenant that what He gave us is pathetic. I didn't want to use my own words, rather, I sent you to the Christ's Words for HIS Definition of HIS New Covenant. It seems you aren't interested.
 
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One day is one day.
One day only lasts one day by definition.

He didn't say "ONE" day. That is you adding scriptures to support your religious traditions. He said He Blessed and Sanctified the 7th day. There is a 7th day in every week.

Heb. 4:9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.

10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.

11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.

There is nothing more to discuss really. You are not going to discuss the questions I posed, or the scriptures I reference. You are here to promote your religion which preaches God's Sanctification and Blessings only lasted one day in creation.

I am going by "Every Word of God" here, as Jesus instructed, and the evidence points to God creating His Sabbath in creation, and blessing and Sanctifying it. The teaching that the blessing and sanctification expired on the morning of next 1st day can not be supported by even one Scripture.

I don't believe God blessed and Sanctified the 7th day, just to erase the blessing and Sanctification the very next day. And you have nothing but your own words in your attempt to convince folks otherwise.



Offline GB

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Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
« Reply #219 on: Sat Jan 11, 2020 - 14:14:44 »
GB, can you kindly point to all the scriptures where the commandments, statutes, ordinances, judgments of God can be found, that you consider the law of God (besides the Sabbath day) that He gave for all men to keep, so the board can consider and examine them?

I'm sure you would claim to know them and keep them.

 If you don't know what God's Laws are, you shouldn't be preaching as if you do.

Offline GB

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Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
« Reply #220 on: Sat Jan 11, 2020 - 14:29:32 »
If your statement is true, can you tell us how that is an advantage and much in every way?

Because there is a God and He has Oracles.

3 For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?

4 God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.

In other words, God's Oracles are true, and religious men who preach against them, add to them or take away from them are liars. Today, because of the Christ's New Covenant, we all have the "Oracles of God" as He promised.

In these oracles there are commandments that "many" just don't believe in. Like the Command to Keep the Sabbath of the Lord Holy, and don't work on it. (Servile)

Heb. 4:4 For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works.

5 And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest.

6 Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief:

These are those who despised and Polluted His Holy Sabbath Day.

9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.

10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.

11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.

It is a big advantage for us to have in all our homes, the oracles of God. We don't have to depend on religious men for our "instruction in righteousness", for doctrines, or correction. We have every thing we need to be "wise unto Salvation".

This is a huge advantage over those who must rely on religious men for their knowledge.



Offline GB

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Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
« Reply #221 on: Sat Jan 11, 2020 - 14:39:29 »
Regarding that passage in Colossians 2, clearly those mentioned in verse 16 which has to do with eating, drinking, of holy days, new moons and even sabbath days are said in verse 17 to be a shadow of things to come, the body of which is of Christ. If a shadow is of the body of Christ, I am sure there is no debate that it cannot be spoken of as something bad or evil.

True, but religious men and religious traditions of men have been bad and evil through out the Bible. They think they are holy and just, but they are not. This is the very purpose of Col. 2. Paul is warning about being spoiled (made rotten) by the philosophy of men pushing traditions of men and rudiments of the world, and not of the Christ.

For instance, the Sabbaths and Commandments of the Bible are of the Christ. The Sunday Sabbath in the religions of the land, is a tradition of men. Paul is telling the true believers to know the difference, and not to let anyone convince them, or judge them for their voluntary humility towards the Holy Christ's Word's over the traditions of men, which will "parish with the using".





Offline GB

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Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
« Reply #222 on: Sat Jan 11, 2020 - 14:53:12 »
With regards that scriptures you quoted in one of your post, let me ask you this question:

To whom did God made a covenant with during the time of Moses? Was it with the outward Jews or the inward Jews?

He made the Covenant with the home born, which also included the stranger that chose to sojourn with them.

This Covenant was to promote folks to "circumcised the foreskins of their heart". This Covenant that the Christ made with them, a covenant Abraham didn't have, consisted of Priestly Services designed to do two things, which was to lead them to their Christ.

#1. Administer God's Laws.

#2. Provide sacrificial "works" through a specific Levitical Priesthood for the atonement of sins. This "Covenant" was to be in force until "After those says", or as Paul describes "till the Seed should Come".

After that, Christ Himself will write His Laws on our hearts, no more Levite Priests to take "Moses Seat".

And He also promised "After those days" that He, Himself, will atone for our sins. No more Levite Priests to perform "works of the Law" for the atonement of sins.

All of this designed to create a new Man, and a Jew (God's Chosen People) from within.




Offline GB

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Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
« Reply #223 on: Sat Jan 11, 2020 - 15:01:28 »
If you are striving to enter the narrow gate, that means you know where the narrow gate is. Tell us where is the narrow gate that you strive to enter?

I'll let the Christ answer this for you.

Duet. 30:9 And the LORD thy God will make thee plenteous in every work of thine hand, in the fruit of thy body, and in the fruit of thy cattle, and in the fruit of thy land, for good: for the LORD will again rejoice over thee for good, as he rejoiced over thy fathers:

10 If thou shalt hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to keep his commandments and his statutes which are written in this book of the law, and if thou turn unto the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul.

11 For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not hidden from thee, neither is it far off.

12 It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?

13 Neither is it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?

14 But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it.

15 See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil;

16 In that I command thee this day to love the LORD thy God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commandments and his statutes and his judgments, that thou mayest live and multiply: and the LORD thy God shall bless thee in the land whither thou goest to possess it.

As you can surely see, not many folks will "Strive to enter" this Path. But Jesus walked it. He is the actual Author of this Path, and we are told to "Walk even as He Walked".

We have everything we need, including volumes of examples of folks, both who "strived to enter" and those who created their own Path.

Heb. 12:1 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,

2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

3 For consider him that endured such contradiction of sinners against himself, lest ye be wearied and faint in your minds.

4 Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.





Offline GB

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Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
« Reply #224 on: Sat Jan 11, 2020 - 15:25:05 »
 author=Michael2012 link=topic=74624.msg1055154468#msg1055154468 date=1578765494]
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You quoted the scriptures above in one of your post. I have some questions for you.

Are you under the law or not?

According to the context in which Paul used it, I hope I am Spiritually alive, not dead according to the Letter. (The wages of sin is death) If I am Spiritually dead, then I am under the Law.

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If you are under the law, would you say you will be judged by the law?

If I am still dead, I have already been judged by the Law. But if I am alive because of God's Grace, I can become a new man, and "Strive to enter" another path. One that respects God and Honors God with my body.

1 Cor. 6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? 20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.


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If you are under the law, would you say you are bound by the law?

If I am dead, which is what it means to be "Under the Law", then I am free from sin. The dead can not praise God. But if I am alive by God's Grace, then I am not my own. I am purchased with HIS Blood. My old self crucified with Him. Now I am a "servant" of the Christ of the Bible, running the race that is set before me, striving against sin, and striving to enter the Narrow Path. I am bound to the one whom I serve, as it is written.

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If you are under the law, if you keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, would you say you are guilty of all?

I am hopeful for the promises of the Christ in His Word.

1 John 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.

4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.

6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.


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If you are not under the law, would you say you are free from the law and are not bound by it?


If I was dead because I rejected His Laws, and by His Grace, He paid the penalty for my transgressions, why would I transgress God's Laws again and place Jesus to an open shame? I am not free from His instruction, I am freed from the death transgression of His Laws caused me.

Rom. 6:12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.

13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.

14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid. (That means NO! Michael)

16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?


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If you are not under the law, how is it that you are not under it?

If I am not dead, it is because Jesus shed His Blood for me. But He didn't shed His Blood so I could reject His Laws again. At least according to the Christ of the Bible.



Offline GB

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Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
« Reply #225 on: Sat Jan 11, 2020 - 15:32:24 »
You said this in one of your post.

James said "whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all."

Do you believe that? I know you'd say you do.

If you believe that, and you admit you are a sinner and have sin no doubt, then if you lie, aren't you then also guilty of all, including the 4th of the 10 commandments?

You are not my judge. You talk in circles in my opinion. You bounce all over the place most the time, in my opinion. You make the claim that I don't answer your questions "Properly" as an excuse to keep moving the bar, going to the next and the next and the next.

I'm sure you are leading to something here, I'm sure I'll find out soon enough. You say the Christ of the Bible isn't the "Restorer of Paths to walk in", yet you won't even show the basic curtsey of telling me, who in your religion is?

You just move to the next, to the next to the next. I don't know why I keep falling for your games here.



Offline Amo

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Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
« Reply #226 on: Sat Jan 11, 2020 - 15:35:03 »
I say you are wrongly dividing the word of God again. God who is spirit, spoke the ten commandments with His own mouth, and wrote them with His own hand twice. Are you suggesting that God's law is not of the spirit but only of the letter? I say this is because you wrongly divide the scriptures and the writings of Paul as well, and then apply a meaning to said scriptures that make the word of God and even Paul contradict itself. This is why I believe you wrongly divide the word of God. Your application causes to many contradictions in the word of God itself. God is spirit, nothing proceeding from Him or His mouth is simply by the letter or carnal in any way shape or form. His law does condemn to death as it is meant to do, to convict the heart and drive the sinner to the foot of the cross for forgiveness and salvation. It is also the standard of righteousness which our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ lived out in our flesh. Which He stated that He did not come to change but fulfill, that such might be fulfilled within our lives as well. All of this is scriptural and without contradiction.

Proclaiming that the law is abolished because it is not of the spirit or carnal, is not scriptural, but contradicts scripture. This is why I reject your gospel as false, and an example of wrongly dividing the word of God.

Psa 19:7 The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple. 8 The statutes of the LORD are right, rejoicing the heart: the commandment of the LORD is pure, enlightening the eyes.

Rom 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet. 8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead. 9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. 10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death. 11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me. 12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good. 13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful. 14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: 4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. 8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.


The law is perfect, good, holy and spiritual. It helps convert the soul. This is the testimony of the scriptures and Paul. It is the carnal mind that is not subject to the law, not the spiritual mind. The law which proceeded out of the mouth of God who is spirit, has never needed to change and will not change. The sinner who is carnal has always needed to change and must change. This is the testimony of scripture. Gospels which contradict this testimony calling the law non spiritual or simply of the letter and needing to be changed, are false gospels which do not rightly divide the word of God but rather make it contradict itself.


If you believe you are the one rightly dividing the word of God, you are mistaken and is deceived.

You see, what Paul says in 2 Cor. 3 concerning the two ministrations is very clear. He speaks in verse 7 of a ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, a ministration of the spirit in verse 8, a ministration of condemnation and a ministration of righteousness in verse 9. And I guess you don't want to tell us what Paul refers to by those.

You say "Proclaiming that the law is abolished because it is not of the spirit or carnal, is not scriptural, but contradicts scripture.". That's right. That is why I did not say such. So if you reject that, that's good. I too reject that. I wonder who said that to you.

There is no issue and debate on whether the laws of God, His statutes and commandments are holy, and just, and good, and that the law is spiritual. For indeed they are. And yes, the Law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul. There is no issue and debate on that.

But then, that does not take away nor change what scriptures had testified of as to the purpose of God in giving it to them. It does not change the truth that the law was made for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, for whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine. It does not change the truth that God made a covenant with Israel, whose mediator was Moses, and wherein the written Law was given to them, to being their obligation to keep and to live by them. Paul later told us why such a written Law, the law, was given in covenant to them. That is, it was given and added because of their transgressions (sin). And this is understood well in that, as Paul had said of the law, that by the law is the knowledge of sin. Paul expressed this more clearly when he said "I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, “You shall not covet.” Remember also, sin is not imputed when there is no law. With the giving of the written law then, there is then a written code which serves, among others, to be what may well be considered as a legal instrument whereby offense is defined, and judged, such as that it imputes sin or offense upon the guilty. So we can see by that, that the law brings about wrath, condemnation, and death. This is what can be understood in what Paul is telling us about the law, that he refers to it as "the letter", "written and engraven in stone", "the ministration of condemnation", "the ministration of death".   

But the good news is, there is now a better and more glorious covenant, the "new covenant", whose mediator is Jesus Christ. In contrast to the former covenant, the "old covenant", where what was given is the law, in this covenant, what is given is the Holy Spirit. In this new covenant, is the ministration of righteousness and the ministration of the spirit, and the ministration of life, as the Spirit gives life.

A perfect example of the false gospel according to those who twist the words of Paul unto the same. In this false gospel, God's law brings about death, not sin. Sin is and would be just fine, if it weren't for God's law. Which is of course the whole point of God's law. Sin is not just fine, it produces death, thus the law of God, to make sin exceedingly sinful. The spiritual, just, holy, good, and pure law of God is not the cause of death. It is the standard which points out the real cause of death, which is sin.

Rom 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet. 8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead. 9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. 10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death. 11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me. 12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good. 13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful. 14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

The true gospel identifies sin as the killer, the false gospel identifies God's law as the killer. The true gospel calls for the abandonment of sin, the false gospel calls for the abandonment of God's law which even Paul says was ordained to life. It convicts of sin and leads the sinner to Jesus Christ who alone can save their lives, it is thereby ordained to life. Sin is the harbinger of death, not the law. The law was given to more emphatically point this truth out. To convict the sinner of guilt, lead them to their only savior from this guilt, and lift up the standard which all the saved should seek to uphold. The false gospel seeks instead to remove the standard which convicts of sin, points to Christ alone for salvation from sin, and maintains said standard as apart form sin. Which standard was perfectly fulfilled in the life and death of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

Deu 4:1  Now therefore hearken, O Israel, unto the statutes and unto the judgments, which I teach you, for to do them, that ye may live, and go in and possess the land which the LORD God of your fathers giveth you. 2 Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you. 3 Your eyes have seen what the LORD did because of Baalpeor: for all the men that followed Baalpeor, the LORD thy God hath destroyed them from among you. 4 But ye that did cleave unto the LORD your God are alive every one of you this day. 5 Behold, I have taught you statutes and judgments, even as the LORD my God commanded me, that ye should do so in the land whither ye go to possess it. 6 Keep therefore and do them; for this is your wisdom and your understanding in the sight of the nations, which shall hear all these statutes, and say, Surely this great nation is a wise and understanding people. 7 For what nation is there so great, who hath God so nigh unto them, as the LORD our God is in all things that we call upon him for? 8 And what nation is there so great, that hath statutes and judgments so righteous as all this law, which I set before you this day? 9 Only take heed to thyself, and keep thy soul diligently, lest thou forget the things which thine eyes have seen, and lest they depart from thy heart all the days of thy life: but teach them thy sons, and thy sons' sons; 10 Specially the day that thou stoodest before the LORD thy God in Horeb, when the LORD said unto me, Gather me the people together, and I will make them hear my words, that they may learn to fear me all the days that they shall live upon the earth, and that they may teach their children. 11 And ye came near and stood under the mountain; and the mountain burned with fire unto the midst of heaven, with darkness, clouds, and thick darkness. 12 And the LORD spake unto you out of the midst of the fire: ye heard the voice of the words, but saw no similitude; only ye heard a voice. 13 And he declared unto you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform, even ten commandments; and he wrote them upon two tables of stone. 14 And the LORD commanded me at that time to teach you statutes and judgments, that ye might do them in the land whither ye go over to possess it.

Moses told Israel that God's commandments were unto life, to be a witness to the surrounding nations of God's righteousness, justice, and mercy. According to todays false gospel though, Paul corrected this apparent error on the part of Moses, and rightly called God's covenant and law the covenant or laws of death. One obscure statement from Paul nullifies all other biblical testimony to the contrary. So be it.

Deu 5:28 And the LORD heard the voice of your words, when ye spake unto me; and the LORD said unto me, I have heard the voice of the words of this people, which they have spoken unto thee: they have well said all that they have spoken. 29 O that there were such an heart in them, that they would fear me, and keep all my commandments always, that it might be well with them, and with their children for ever! 30 Go say to them, Get you into your tents again. 31 But as for thee, stand thou here by me, and I will speak unto thee all the commandments, and the statutes, and the judgments, which thou shalt teach them, that they may do them in the land which I give them to possess it. 32 Ye shall observe to do therefore as the LORD your God hath commanded you: ye shall not turn aside to the right hand or to the left. 33 Ye shall walk in all the ways which the LORD your God hath commanded you, that ye may live, and that it may be well with you, and that ye may prolong your days in the land which ye shall possess.

It just doesn't sound like a covenant of death to me.

Deu 30:1 And it shall come to pass, when all these things are come upon thee, the blessing and the curse, which I have set before thee, and thou shalt call them to mind among all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath driven thee, 2 And shalt return unto the LORD thy God, and shalt obey his voice according to all that I command thee this day, thou and thy children, with all thine heart, and with all thy soul; 3 That then the LORD thy God will turn thy captivity, and have compassion upon thee, and will return and gather thee from all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath scattered thee. 4 If any of thine be driven out unto the outmost parts of heaven, from thence will the LORD thy God gather thee, and from thence will he fetch thee: 5 And the LORD thy God will bring thee into the land which thy fathers possessed, and thou shalt possess it; and he will do thee good, and multiply thee above thy fathers. 6 And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live. 7 And the LORD thy God will put all these curses upon thine enemies, and on them that hate thee, which persecuted thee. 8 And thou shalt return and obey the voice of the LORD, and do all his commandments which I command thee this day. 9 And the LORD thy God will make thee plenteous in every work of thine hand, in the fruit of thy body, and in the fruit of thy cattle, and in the fruit of thy land, for good: for the LORD will again rejoice over thee for good, as he rejoiced over thy fathers: 10 If thou shalt hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to keep his commandments and his statutes which are written in this book of the law, and if thou turn unto the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul. 11 For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not hidden from thee, neither is it far off. 12 It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it? 13 Neither is it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it? 14 But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it. 15 See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil; 16 In that I command thee this day to love the LORD thy God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commandments and his statutes and his judgments, that thou mayest live and multiply: and the LORD thy God shall bless thee in the land whither thou goest to possess it. 17 But if thine heart turn away, so that thou wilt not hear, but shalt be drawn away, and worship other gods, and serve them; 18 I denounce unto you this day, that ye shall surely perish, and that ye shall not prolong your days upon the land, whither thou passest over Jordan to go to possess it. 19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live: 20 That thou mayest love the LORD thy God, and that thou mayest obey his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto him: for he is thy life, and the length of thy days: that thou mayest dwell in the land which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.

So strange, all this talk by God about obeying His laws and statutes and the better and abundant life that He will give to those who do such. How have "Christians" of today turned such into a covenant of death? Why is that which even Paul said was ordained unto life, turned into a covenant of death by so many "Christians" today? Are they not wrongly dividing the word of God?

Eze 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die. 5 But if a man be just, and do that which is lawful and right, 6 And hath not eaten upon the mountains, neither hath lifted up his eyes to the idols of the house of Israel, neither hath defiled his neighbour's wife, neither hath come near to a menstruous woman, 7 And hath not oppressed any, but hath restored to the debtor his pledge, hath spoiled none by violence, hath given his bread to the hungry, and hath covered the naked with a garment; 8 He that hath not given forth upon usury, neither hath taken any increase, that hath withdrawn his hand from iniquity, hath executed true judgment between man and man, 9 Hath walked in my statutes, and hath kept my judgments, to deal truly; he is just, he shall surely live, saith the Lord GOD.

Why does God's word keep promising life to those who would obey His laws which "Christians" today call the covenant or ministry of death?

Eze 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him. 21 But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die. 22 All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live. 23 Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord GOD: and not that he should return from his ways, and live? 24 But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die. 25 Yet ye say, The way of the Lord is not equal. Hear now, O house of Israel; Is not my way equal? are not your ways unequal? 26 When a righteous man turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die. 27 Again, when the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive. 28 Because he considereth, and turneth away from all his transgressions that he hath committed, he shall surely live, he shall not die. 29 Yet saith the house of Israel, The way of the Lord is not equal. O house of Israel, are not my ways equal? are not your ways unequal? 30 Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, saith the Lord GOD. Repent, and turn yourselves from all your transgressions; so iniquity shall not be your ruin. 31 Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel? 32 For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye.

Sin causes death, not God's law. God's law was and is ordained unto life. Its purpose is to lead the sinner to Christ and uplift the standard which all in Christ should seek to uphold within their lives, as their Lord and Savior Jesus Christ did on their behalf as one of us. That which many "Christians" of today proclaim to be the covenant or ministry of death according to their misapplication of the words of Paul, scripture testifies to be unto life many times over. They preach a gospel of abolishing the law which was ordained unto life, instead of abolishing sin which produces death.

Jas 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. 15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

Sin brings forth death, not God's law. The law was added that sin might become exceeding sinful, to the effect that God's own would turn away from such unto the Holy and Blameless Lamb of God who died for their sins, Jesus Christ. Our sins caused His death, not the law of God. Turn from the former, and embrace the latter as the new standard of your life as lived out and exemplified in the life and death of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. Praise His Holy name.










Offline winsome

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Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
« Reply #227 on: Sat Jan 11, 2020 - 15:38:47 »
author=winsome link=topic=74624.msg1055154448#msg1055154448 date=1578760727]
There is only one 7th day of the week and God Blessed and sanctified it.  It doesn't imply, suggest or otherwise say that this blessing or Sanctification only lasted for one day. You are making that part up.

Ex. 16:23 And he said unto them, This is that which the LORD hath said, To morrow is the rest of the holy sabbath unto the LORD:

Still Blessed and Still Sanctified.

Ex. 20:8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:

10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:

11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

Still Blessed and Still Sanctified. This is saying the Lord, that means the Christ, Blessed and Hallowed the "SABBATH DAY" in creation. There is only One God, and He Blessed and Sanctified HIS "Sabbath" Day, defined as the 7th day of the week. Your preaching that there is only one "Sabbath" that was Blessed is foolishness.

There is no mention, suggestion, implication or teaching here that God created only one "Sabbath" day. There is a "SABBATH" day in every week. Six days of every week are work days, the 7th is the Sabbath of the Lord from Creation, as it is written.

Heb. 4:9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God. 10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his. 11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.

Still Blessed, still Sanctified. And religious men are still preaching against it.


Scriptures teach He Blessed His Holy Sabbath, defined as the 7th day of the week. There is a "SABBATH" every week, as it is written.

There is a 7th day every week as God created. The 7th Day is Blessed and Sanctified. I'm pretty sure God knew there would be more than one 7th day.

There is a 7th Day in every week, and it was designed by God to be that way. Your preaching that He only Hallowed the very first Sabbath is a doctrine of men, not God.  HE said He Sanctified and Blessed the 7th day. I have no reason to believe HE lied to me. Moses said He Blessed the "Sabbath" Day in creation. I have no reason to doubt the Spirit of Christ which was on him.

There is only one 7th day per week. Why would God Sanctify "them" if there is only one day a week that He Blessed? Each week, at creation, starts with the first day, and ends with the 7th. God said He Blessed the 7th day. He didn't say He Blessed only the first 7th day, or the last 7th day. HE said He blessed the 7th day. There is only one 7th day of the week.

 

That is your religion, but that is not what God told Moses to tell the Children of Abraham.

Ex. 20:11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

This is exactly the same thing this same Lord said in Genesis.

Gen. 2:3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

It was the Sabbath Rest of the Lord at creation, at least according to God's Word.

Gen. 26:5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

Did God spell out HIS Laws for us that Abraham followed before Exodus? No, but Abraham did have God's Laws and Commandments. At least according to the God of the Bible.

Gen. 7:1 And the LORD said unto Noah, Come thou and all thy house into the ark; for thee have I seen righteous before me in this generation.

2 Of every clean beast thou shalt take to thee by sevens, the male and his female: and of beasts that are not clean by two, the male and his female.

5 And Noah did according unto all that the LORD commanded him.

Did God spell out His creation of clean, and unclean animals before Leviticus? No, but Noah knew them.

Show me one scripture where God told us before Leviticus His definition of Clean animals, and unclean animals. Just one. You can't because it doesn't exist. Yet Gods Creation of clean and unclean did exist. He just didn't define it until Leviticus.

So when  did the Holy, Blessed and Sanctified 7th day become unsanctified, unblessed, and unholy? Show me just one scripture.

Gen. 12:17 And the LORD plagued Pharaoh and his house with great plagues because of Sarai Abram's wife.

18 And Pharaoh called Abram, and said, What is this that thou hast done unto me? why didst thou not tell me that she was thy wife?

19 Why saidst thou, She is my sister? so I might have taken her to me to wife: now therefore behold thy wife, take her, and go thy way.

Show me just one scripture where God showed Pharaoh His Law regarding Adultery? Just one. Show me one scriptures where God showed Noah His creation of clean and unclean animals. Just one.

Gen. 20:4 But Abimelech had not come near her: and he said, Lord, wilt thou slay also a righteous nation?

5 Said he not unto me, She is my sister? and she, even she herself said, He is my brother: in the integrity of my heart and innocency of my hands have I done this.

6 And God said unto him in a dream, Yea, I know that thou didst this in the integrity of thy heart; for I also withheld thee from sinning against me: therefore suffered I thee not to touch her.

Show me just one scriptures where God showed Abimelech the sin of adultery and the wages for that sin?

Gen. 22:8 And Abraham said, My son, God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering: so they went both of them together.

Show me just one scripture where God told Abraham about the "Lamb of God".

And yet these Laws of God, Adultery, the difference between clean, and unclean animals, even Passover, was known to these men.

Mainstream Preachers are always boasting about "you keep one, you must keep them all". Where is your scriptural evidence that God's Laws included adultery, but not killing, not stealing, not lying, not loving your neighbor as thyself. You have none, nothing. Just religious traditions of man.

So for me, when the God of the Bible says " Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws," I already know what those Laws are because God defined these laws for me in Exodus and Leviticus.

And when God tells Noah to load clean and unclean animals, I know what they are because God defined this part of His Law in Leviticus.

Just because God waited until Exodus and Leviticus to spell out His Laws, His Commandments, and His Statutes,  to us, doesn't mean they weren't there. If a man believes in the God of the Bible, they were there.

Ex. 16:27 And it came to pass, that there went out some of the people on the seventh day for to gather, and they found none.

28 And the LORD said unto Moses, How long refuse ye to keep my commandments and my laws?

How can this be? Can you show me one Scripture where God details what HIS Laws and Commandments are before Ex. 16? And yet God says they broke them all.

Except the Levitical Priesthood which, according to Paul, was "ADDED" till the Seed should Come.

I don't think the Christ's New Covenant is pathetic. I think religious men who preach a different new covenant that what He gave us is pathetic. I didn't want to use my own words, rather, I sent you to the Christ's Words for HIS Definition of HIS New Covenant. It seems you aren't interested.
 
He didn't say "ONE" day. That is you adding scriptures to support your religious traditions. He said He Blessed and Sanctified the 7th day. There is a 7th day in every week.

Heb. 4:9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.

10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.

11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.

There is nothing more to discuss really. You are not going to discuss the questions I posed, or the scriptures I reference. You are here to promote your religion which preaches God's Sanctification and Blessings only lasted one day in creation.

I am going by "Every Word of God" here, as Jesus instructed, and the evidence points to God creating His Sabbath in creation, and blessing and Sanctifying it. The teaching that the blessing and sanctification expired on the morning of next 1st day can not be supported by even one Scripture.

I don't believe God blessed and Sanctified the 7th day, just to erase the blessing and Sanctification the very next day. And you have nothing but your own words in your attempt to convince folks otherwise.
A summary
Gen 1 and the beginning of 2 describes God's creation of the world in 7 days.This is was unique event.
 
Each of the first 6 days God creates something new that scripture does not record God creating on any other day or since that day. Each day was unique in time.
 
On the 7th day scripture records God rested from the work he had been doing on the first 6 days.
Scripture does not record God resting on any other day. It too was unique in time.
 
But GB believes it was a repeatable event but  cannot provide a single line of scripture that says God rested on any other day.
 
Nowhere in scripture does God command a human to rest every 7th day before he gave that command to the Israelites in the desert (Ex 16:23 onwards).
But GB believes God did, but  cannot provide a single line of scripture that says God gave that command before Ex 16:23.
 
 
Nowhere in scripture does it record a human resting on the 7th day before the Israelites in the desert (Ex 16:23 onwards).
But GB believes some humans did, but  cannot provide a single line of scripture that says any human rested on the 7th day before the Israelites in the desert (Ex 16:23 onwards).
 
 

Offline Jaime

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Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
« Reply #228 on: Sat Jan 11, 2020 - 15:45:08 »
When God gives his appointed times, he includes the Sabbath along with Passover, and all the other feasts. There is no idea there that God was counting only a single of those as an appointed time rather than repeated weekly or annually.

Winsome, I have to say this is the most bizarre argument against Sabbath observance I have ever heard. Maybe I  have existed in the dark on this subject.

Another thing that indicates it was more than a one occatioml thing is the whole way God directed the gathering of the manna in the wilderness on each and every weekly Sabbath..
« Last Edit: Sat Jan 11, 2020 - 16:37:51 by Jaime »

Offline Amo

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Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
« Reply #229 on: Sat Jan 11, 2020 - 16:05:50 »
A summary
Gen 1 and the beginning of 2 describes God's creation of the world in 7 days.This is was unique event.
 
Each of the first 6 days God creates something new that scripture does not record God creating on any other day or since that day. Each day was unique in time.
 
On the 7th day scripture records God rested from the work he had been doing on the first 6 days.
Scripture does not record God resting on any other day. It too was unique in time.
 
But GB believes it was a repeatable event but  cannot provide a single line of scripture that says God rested on any other day.
 
Nowhere in scripture does God command a human to rest every 7th day before he gave that command to the Israelites in the desert (Ex 16:23 onwards).
But GB believes God did, but  cannot provide a single line of scripture that says God gave that command before Ex 16:23.
 
 
Nowhere in scripture does it record a human resting on the 7th day before the Israelites in the desert (Ex 16:23 onwards).
But GB believes some humans did, but  cannot provide a single line of scripture that says any human rested on the 7th day before the Israelites in the desert (Ex 16:23 onwards).

You presume no one did. Others rightly so, presume that the God who just created our entire world by the command of His voice, was listened to by that creation when He blessed and sanctified the seventh day immediately after finishing His creation. We know there were laws, statutes, and commandments of God before those given to Israel because the scriptures testify that Abraham kept them. You simply choose to believe that the Sabbath commandment was apparently not among them, even though the commandment given to Israel said remember God's Sabbath. Who should remember something that never existed in the first place?

Gen 26:1 And there was a famine in the land, beside the first famine that was in the days of Abraham. And Isaac went unto Abimelech king of the Philistines unto Gerar. 2 And the LORD appeared unto him, and said, Go not down into Egypt; dwell in the land which I shall tell thee of: 3 Sojourn in this land, and I will be with thee, and will bless thee; for unto thee, and unto thy seed, I will give all these countries, and I will perform the oath which I sware unto Abraham thy father; 4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; 5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

At least those of us who acknowledge and keep God's seventh day sabbath and advise others to observe it by faith, have scripture references and commands concerning the same. Sunday keepers have and do repeatedly force their chosen day of worship upon all through civil legislation with no mention of Sunday sacredness anywhere in scripture at all. If they know that God intended a day of worship for His chosen nation during the old covenant, and are even so convinced that He wants one now during this new covenant that they make and pass civil laws in relation to them, why do or would they think He didn't want one then? What sense does that make? Especially when He declared a blessed and sanctified day at the very beginning of the time in question. Let's not forget Isaiah's prophecy of sabbath observance in the new heaven and new earth as well. Seventh day sabbath keepers and promoters are not the inconsistent ones here.



Offline GB

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Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
« Reply #230 on: Sat Jan 11, 2020 - 17:38:56 »
Quote
author=Michael2012 link=topic=74624.msg1055154424#msg1055154424 date=1578738542]

Dishonesty is of the devil not of God. Every child of God knows that.

God says;

Ex. 20:8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.

9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:

10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:

11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

And again:

Is. 58:13 If thou turn away thy foot from the sabbath, from doing thy pleasure on my holy day; and call the sabbath a delight, the holy of the LORD, honourable; and shalt honour him, not doing thine own ways, nor finding thine own pleasure, nor speaking thine own words:

14 Then shalt thou delight thyself in the LORD; and I will cause thee to ride upon the high places of the earth, and feed thee with the heritage of Jacob thy father: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it.

I've heard people use this as their justification for not accepting God's instruction regarding His Sabbath for years.

Quote
Yes. I delight and take great pleasure in the Lord not only in the seventh day of the week, but every day, calling everyday a delight and honorable, and striving to honor every day that the Lord has made, by not going my own way and not doing as I please, but going in the way of the Lord and doing His will.

I'm sorry Michael, even God worked 6 days a week. I'm not buying your story that you don't have "servile" work you do, or personal pleasure 7 days a week. And there is no law against that.

You are claiming to honor God in a manner of your own choosing. Your way sounds good to you, just as the fruit of the tree looked good to Eve.

But it's your way, not the Christ's. You have no Sabbath while claiming every day is your sabbath. We are commanded to work six days and dedicate the 7th to God.

Maybe it doesn't matter, but I'm not a liar for pointing it out.




 








Online RB

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Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
« Reply #231 on: Sun Jan 12, 2020 - 04:32:18 »
While it is true there is nowhere in the Bible where the Holy Sabbath of the Lord, was changed from the 7th to the 1st day, as you preach. It is also not true that the 7th Day is the only day of worship.
I'm finished I believe in dealing with this subject for reasons given above. If you desire to go here: http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/theology/re-did-the-apostle-paul-err-on-occasion/105/ and address my last two posts Replies #132 and 138 to restrats then feel free to do so and we may speak more on this subject but in all sincerity, these two threads are at a dead-end, and see little or no profit in continuing them.
Quote from: GB Reply #209 on: Yesterday at 10:07:22
While it is true there is nowhere in the Bible where the Holy Sabbath of the Lord, was changed from the 7th to the 1st day, as you preach. 
I did not say that~The Sabbaths as the Jews knew it and practice has been changed! Read my two posts here:http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/theology/re-did-the-apostle-paul-err-on-occasion/105/ and refute it if you believe you can with scriptures in the NT, especially so in the churches epistles. A point that I have yet to go into and maybe will at some point is the Lord's day as mentioned by John~what DAY is that in John's practice and understanding post the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ~ do you believe? Again I believe the scripture is clear that the Sabbath day is for us under the NT is any day FOLLOWING SIX DAYS OF WORKING and that would be different for policemen, hospitals employees, etc., etc. The Jewish Sabbath was ALWAYS ON THE SAME DAY since it was a commandment that everyone had to REST on what we know is Saturday~ everyone from the children of Israel, all servants, and all beasts, there were only acts of mercy allowed, since the sabbath was made FOR MAN, not man for the Sabbath! Of course, we know that the Pharisees ONLY allowed mercy for themselves and not for man~if the their ox fell into the ditch they would help him out, yet if man was hungry, NO MERCY FOR THEM were allowed......unless it was for them where no one would have seen them doing whatever they desired to do for themselves!
Quote from: GB Reply #209 on: Yesterday at 10:07:22
The Holy 7th day Sabbath is basically a fast from the wicked world we live in. A foreshadow of the time when our "work" to over come, even as He overcame, is over. A shadow of the time when we will no longer need to "Put on" His Armor to resist the devil, when we will no longer need "escapes" from temptation.
Give scriptures to support what you are saying.  The sabbath was MADE FOR MAN, to refresh his body, mind, and soul! Both physical and mentally. It would even benefit NON-BELIEVERS if practiced according to the word of God. It even benefits the GROUND OF THE EARTH if a farmer rotated his crops every seven years and rested a certain portion of his land every seventh year~ the first year AFTER the rest year would produce MUCH MORE CROPS then if he had NOT rested his ground every seventh year. Need proof?
Quote from: Moses
Leviticus 25:4~"But in the seventh year shall be a sabbath of rest unto the land, a sabbath for the LORD: thou shalt neither sow thy field nor prune thy vineyard."
I even practice this with the planting of flowers in certain spots, I ALLOW the earth to rest once every seven years, or else the results will be less than desired without question.  Now it is true that when we practice resting the seventh day following six working days, our minds are much more refresh in worshipping God through reading, praying, and mediations of the holy scriptures. Indeed the sabbath was made FOR MAN, not man for the sabbath.
Quote from: GB Reply #209 on: Yesterday at 10:07:22
Yes, there are religious voices, men who come in Christ's Name, men who use God's Word, just as the serpent did, to convince men to reject the Path foreordained by God that we should walk in them.

And most folks will go in thereat. But for those who believe "Every Word of God", there is another path in which He tells us to "Strive to enter".
We all believe that, but this is not the subject under consideration.  Stay with the subject under consideration and stay away from your many ad hominem fallacies. If you want to discuss Matthew 7:21-23 then start another thread and do so.

Offline winsome

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Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
« Reply #232 on: Sun Jan 12, 2020 - 06:47:33 »
You presume no one did. Others rightly so, presume that the God who just created our entire world by the command of His voice, was listened to by that creation when He blessed and sanctified the seventh day immediately after finishing His creation. We know there were laws, statutes, and commandments of God before those given to Israel because the scriptures testify that Abraham kept them. You simply choose to believe that the Sabbath commandment was apparently not among them, even though the commandment given to Israel said remember God's Sabbath. Who should remember something that never existed in the first place?

Gen 26:1 And there was a famine in the land, beside the first famine that was in the days of Abraham. And Isaac went unto Abimelech king of the Philistines unto Gerar. 2 And the LORD appeared unto him, and said, Go not down into Egypt; dwell in the land which I shall tell thee of: 3 Sojourn in this land, and I will be with thee, and will bless thee; for unto thee, and unto thy seed, I will give all these countries, and I will perform the oath which I sware unto Abraham thy father; 4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; 5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

At least those of us who acknowledge and keep God's seventh day sabbath and advise others to observe it by faith, have scripture references and commands concerning the same. Sunday keepers have and do repeatedly force their chosen day of worship upon all through civil legislation with no mention of Sunday sacredness anywhere in scripture at all. If they know that God intended a day of worship for His chosen nation during the old covenant, and are even so convinced that He wants one now during this new covenant that they make and pass civil laws in relation to them, why do or would they think He didn't want one then? What sense does that make? Especially when He declared a blessed and sanctified day at the very beginning of the time in question. Let's not forget Isaiah's prophecy of sabbath observance in the new heaven and new earth as well. Seventh day sabbath keepers and promoters are not the inconsistent ones here.
Once again a lot of words but not a single scripture to show where God commanded a human to rest every 7th day before he gave that command to the Israelites in the desert (Ex 16:23 onwards). 

And  not a single scripture to show that a human rested on the 7th day before the Israelites in the desert (Ex 16:23 onwards).   

You may believe that God instuted a 7th day sabbath before Ex 16:23 but it is not supported by scripture.

Offline winsome

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Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
« Reply #233 on: Sun Jan 12, 2020 - 08:43:14 »
. You simply choose to believe that the Sabbath commandment was apparently not among them, even though the commandment given to Israel said remember God's Sabbath. Who should remember something that never existed in the first place?
The Sabbath did exist before God said to remember the sabbath in Ex 20:8. 
He taught them about the sabbath in Ex 16:23-30.
They didn't understand it clearly showing they knew npthing about it before then.

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Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
« Reply #234 on: Sun Jan 12, 2020 - 09:38:38 »
 author=RB link=topic=74624.msg1055154534#msg1055154534 date=1578825138]


Quote
I did not say that
~

Yes, you did Red, I've posted your statement several times. Don't hide yourself from your own flesh Red.

Quote
The Sabbaths as the Jews knew it and practice has been changed!

The Sabbath, as the Jews knew it, had been corrupted by them for centuries. This is a Biblical Fact. The Sabbath they promoted,  is/was not the Lord's Sabbath. Zechariahs knew and partook of the Lord's Sabbath, Simeon did, Jesus did, but the Pharisees and religious leadership of the Jews did not.

The Christ Never Changed His Own perfect Sabbath. Religious men have been changing and polluting it since He first gave His Sabbath to Israel. Jesus, that Isaiah describes as, "The restorer of paths to walk in", exposed the Jews and the way they had despised and corrupted God's Commandments, including His Sabbaths. He reminds them, I am the Lord of the Sabbath, in other words, the Sabbath is Mine, I know what it means. 


Quote
The Jewish Sabbath was ALWAYS ON THE SAME DAY since it was a commandment that everyone had to REST on what we know is Saturday~ everyone from the children of Israel, all servants, and all beasts, there were only acts of mercy allowed, since the sabbath was made FOR MAN, not man for the Sabbath!

Why do you insist on preaching that God's Holy Sabbath is a Jewish Sabbath? God is not a Jew. The Christ Himself said the Biblical Sabbath was HIS. HIS Feasts, His Oracles that He gave to Abraham's Children. HIS Sabbath was made for man, not just Jews. His Sabbath that HE created is the 7th day of the week, according to the Holy scriptures. The Jews despised God's Sabbaths, and greatly polluted them. Why do you insist in naming HIS Sabbath after those who defiled it, polluted it, despised it, and killed Him for preaching it?

Quote
Of course, we know that the Pharisees ONLY allowed mercy for themselves and not for man~if the their ox fell into the ditch they would help him out, yet if man was hungry, NO MERCY FOR THEM were allowed......unless it was for them where no one would have seen them doing whatever they desired to do for themselves!

It wasn't just mercy that the Mainstream Preachers of Jesus time omitted from their religion.


Quote
Give scriptures to support what you are saying.  The sabbath was MADE FOR MAN, to refresh his body, mind, and soul! Both physical and mentally. It would even benefit NON-BELIEVERS if practiced according to the word of God. It even benefits the GROUND OF THE EARTH if a farmer rotated his crops every seven years and rested a certain portion of his land every seventh year~ the first year AFTER the rest year would produce MUCH MORE CROPS then if he had NOT rested his ground every seventh year. Need proof?

The Sabbath isn't about corn or dirt. It's about self understanding. Self honestly. It's about Honoring the Christ that created it, that purchased us with His Blood. It's about Spiritual renewal of the mind. It's about keeping in mind the rest that awaits for His servants who "Endure till the end".

Here are the scriptures you asked for.

IS. 58:5 Is it such a fast that I have chosen? a day for a man to afflict his soul? is it to bow down his head as a bulrush, and to spread sackcloth and ashes under him? wilt thou call this a fast, and an acceptable day to the LORD?

6 Is not this the fast that I have chosen? to loose the bands of wickedness, to undo the heavy burdens, and to let the oppressed  go free, and that ye break every yoke? (Deception)

7 Is it not to deal thy bread to the hungry, and that thou bring the poor that are cast out to thy house? when thou seest the naked, that thou cover him; and that thou hide not thyself from thine own flesh?

Is. 58:12 And they that shall be of thee shall build the old waste places: thou shalt raise up the foundations of many generations; and thou shalt be called, The repairer of the breach, The restorer of paths to dwell in.

13 If thou turn away thy foot from the sabbath, from doing thy pleasure on my holy day; (Not the Jews as you falsely preach) and call the sabbath a delight, the holy of the LORD, honourable; and shalt honour him, not doing thine own ways, nor finding thine own pleasure, nor speaking thine own words:

14 Then shalt thou delight thyself in the LORD; and I will cause thee to ride upon the high places of the earth, and feed thee with the heritage of Jacob thy father: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it.

We are to serve the Lord, and Love Him every day, including the 1st day of the week. But there is only ONE Day of the week that HE Blessed, and HE Sanctified and HE Hallowed.

It's not for raising plants, it doesn't do those who don't believe in the Christ any Spiritual good. It's not for changing, polluting, defiling, despising, ignoring, or preaching against by religious men.

EZ. 20:19 I am the LORD your God; walk in my statutes, and keep my judgments, and do them;

20 And hallow my sabbaths; and they shall be a sign between me and you, that ye may know that I am the LORD your God.

At least according to the Christ of the Bible.



Offline Amo

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Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
« Reply #235 on: Sun Jan 12, 2020 - 09:57:24 »
Once again a lot of words but not a single scripture to show where God commanded a human to rest every 7th day before he gave that command to the Israelites in the desert (Ex 16:23 onwards). 

And  not a single scripture to show that a human rested on the 7th day before the Israelites in the desert (Ex 16:23 onwards).   

You may believe that God instuted a 7th day sabbath before Ex 16:23 but it is not supported by scripture.

You may of course keep telling yourself whatever you wish. The truth is plain to see for all those rejecting error. Those trying desperately to escape the truth even went as far as changing God's commandments to pretend there was no seventh day Sabbath from the beginning. Nevertheless the fourth commandment itself proves the opposite. God declared it to be so at the end of creation.

Gen 2:1 Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them. 2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made. 3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

Then He pointed the nation He chose and formed back to creation to remember the sabbath day He had established at that time.

Exo 20:8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: 10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: 11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

God tells all in His fourth commandment when and where He established His sabbath. This is the plain and simple light of scripture, but those who prefer darkness do always follow the example of the father of lies and attempt to cloud and confuse the same.

Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

The light bearer and Lord of the sabbath said -

Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. 19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God. The Word of God testifies that He blessed and sanctified the seventh day at creation, that He reminded the nation He chose and established to keep His sabbath forever, that all who will keep His sabbath will be blessed for doing so, that the sabbath would be kept by the gentiles He would bring into His fold in the future, that the seventh day sabbath would be kept in the new heaven and new earth. When Jesus came to us as one of us He taught the sabbath's proper observance, told us that none of His commandments would ever change before heaven and earth passed, and even spoke of His followers keeping His sabbath after He was gone. All of this do the children of darkness reject as deception, that they may follow their own course in exalting the man of sin and the times, laws, and day he has exalted. So be it. 

Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) 16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: 17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: 18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. 19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! 20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: 21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened. 23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. 24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. 25 Behold, I have told you before. 26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not. 27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.

Offline Amo

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Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
« Reply #236 on: Sun Jan 12, 2020 - 10:01:57 »
The Sabbath did exist before God said to remember the sabbath in Ex 20:8. 
He taught them about the sabbath in Ex 16:23-30.
They didn't understand it clearly showing they knew npthing about it before then.

They didn't know anything about it. It had been forgotten and lost over time. This does not take away from the fact, that the sabbath was established at creation. Therefore any reference to remembering it, would include going back to the beginning where the fourth commandment points out that it was established. You simply deny this because you have chosen deception and darkness over truth. So be it.

Offline winsome

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Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
« Reply #237 on: Sun Jan 12, 2020 - 10:56:00 »
You may of course keep telling yourself whatever you wish. The truth is plain to see for all those rejecting error. Those trying desperately to escape the truth even went as far as changing God's commandments to pretend there was no seventh day Sabbath from the beginning. Nevertheless the fourth commandment itself proves the opposite. God declared it to be so at the end of creation.

Gen 2:1 Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them. 2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made. 3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.
No he didn't declare it was a sabbath. 
Do you see the word Sabbath in there?Answer - no.
You just read it where it isn't.
Does it say God blessed and sanctified every 7th day? 
No, it doesn't It says God blessed and sanctifies that day. It was the final day of creation week.It says he sanctified it not them.

Does he tell anyone to keep every 7th day as a sabbath? 
No he doesn't!
Then He pointed the nation He chose and formed back to creation to remember the sabbath day He had established at that time.

Exo 20:8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: 10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: 11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

God tells all in His fourth commandment when and where He established His sabbath. This is the plain and simple light of scripture, but those who prefer darkness do always follow the example of the father of lies and attempt to cloud and confuse the same.
he established the sabbath in Ex 16:23-30. Read it.They didn't understand, so when he gaveve them the Covenant laws he had to  tell them to remember it,


Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

The light bearer and Lord of the sabbath said -

Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. 19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God. The Word of God testifies that He blessed and sanctified the seventh day at creation, that He reminded the nation He chose and established to keep His sabbath forever, that all who will keep His sabbath will be blessed for doing so, that the sabbath would be kept by the gentiles He would bring into His fold in the future, that the seventh day sabbath would be kept in the new heaven and new earth. When Jesus came to us as one of us He taught the sabbath's proper observance, told us that none of His commandments would ever change before heaven and earth passed, and even spoke of His followers keeping His sabbath after He was gone. All of this do the children of darkness reject as deception, that they may follow their own course in exalting the man of sin and the times, laws, and day he has exalted. So be it. 

Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) 16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: 17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: 18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. 19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! 20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: 21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened. 23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. 24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. 25 Behold, I have told you before. 26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not. 27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
That says nothing about the establishment of the sabbath.

You say "The Word of God testifies that He blessed and sanctified the seventh day at creation".
No it doesn't testify that.
God sanctified the 7th day OF creation not every 7th day AT creation.
It was a specific day he sanctified, just as it was a specific day he created birds and fishes, and a specific day he created animals

Offline winsome

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Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
« Reply #238 on: Sun Jan 12, 2020 - 11:03:03 »
They didn't know anything about it. It had been forgotten and lost over time.
Pure speculation.
You provide no evidence for that supposition.
This does not take away from the fact, that the sabbath was established at creation.
That is not a fact. It's your opinion.

Therefore any reference to remembering it, would include going back to the beginning where the fourth commandment points out that it was established.
Since your "fact" was untrue your supposition about remembering has no basis.

You simply deny this because you have chosen deception and darkness over truth. So be it.
No, I go by scripture and the fact is that you cannot provide a single scripture that says God gave the sabbath command before Ex 16:23. 
The fact is that you cannot provide a single scripture that records a human resting on the 7th day before the Israelites in the desert (Ex 16:23 onwards).

Online RB

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Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
« Reply #239 on: Sun Jan 12, 2020 - 13:06:51 »
Yes, you did Red, I've posted your statement several times. Don't hide yourself from your own flesh Red.
Not sure why I'm even posting to you and sinning against my conscience and the Lord, for it is nothing more than casting pearls before a swine. But since you are again lying and showing your deceitful spirit~it's hard to allow you to deceive others (if that is possible by your irrational and vain repetitious posts) and sit quietly without speaking out~ YET, knowing that it will go nowhere!  

So, prove that you are not lying by posting my several statements that you said I have said. You said that I said
Quote from: GB Reply #209 on: Yesterday at 10:07:22
While it is true there is nowhere in the Bible where the Holy Sabbath of the Lord, was changed from the 7th to the 1st day, as you preach.
Never said that! You have a lying spirit that's from the Devil himself! This should concern you, but it does not.
Quote from: GB the father of ad hominem fallacies
The Sabbath, as the Jews knew it, had been corrupted by them for centuries. This is a Biblical Fact. The Sabbath they promoted,  is/was not the Lord's Sabbath. Zechariahs knew and partook of the Lord's Sabbath, Simeon did, Jesus did, but the Pharisees and religious leadership of the Jews did not.
No one denys this~No one has said otherwise!
Quote from: GB Reply #234 on: Today at 09:38:38
Why do you insist on preaching that God's Holy Sabbath is a Jewish Sabbath?
Very simple, the sabbath from Moses until Christ was given to them ALONE in the manner in which it was given!
Quote from: Moses
Exdous 31:16~Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant.'
Not only the weekly sabbath but other sabbath days, one which included the LAND, (given already above) animals, etc.  The sabbaths AS GIVEN TO ISRAEL did NOT include you and me, or any other person living post-Christ and his resurrection! Even though as I said above there is WISDOM in allowing the land to rest AFTER six years of laboring! Yet, it is NOT a commandment to do so for us!
Quote from: GB Reply #234 on: Today at 09:38:38
The Sabbath isn't about corn or dirt. It's about self understanding. Self honestly. It's about Honoring the Christ that created it, that purchased us with His Blood. It's about Spiritual renewal of the mind. It's about keeping in mind the rest that awaits for His servants who "Endure till the end".
GB, I asked you above to prove your statement when you said basically the same thing as you did here: and you came back with five scriptures from Isaiah 58 that you had no spiritual understanding what the prophet was truly saying.

I'm coming back with a verse by verse commentary on Isaiah's words, something that I have never seen you even attempted to do, and the reason why is that you have no spiritual light in you, pure and simple. 
« Last Edit: Sun Jan 12, 2020 - 13:14:00 by RB »

Offline winsome

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Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
« Reply #240 on: Sun Jan 12, 2020 - 14:19:17 »
@Amo, @GB

Moses is normally credited with composing the first 5 books of the Bible, but for all of Genesis he was not alive.

Please tell me regarding the stories in Genesis - creation/fall, Tower of Babel/ Noah etc - did:
a) Moses write down what had been passed down through the generations from Adam and Eve?
or 
b) Make it all up?

Offline beam

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Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
« Reply #241 on: Sun Jan 12, 2020 - 21:42:39 »
author=beam link=topic=74624.msg1055154415#msg1055154415 date=1578708528]

For 25 years I studied the Bible apart from any mainstream religious influence, at least as much as is possible in our world today. What I found is that what the Scriptures teach, and what religious men teach are two different things
.
Very admiral of you. 

Quote
Which confirmed all the Prophesies, including warnings from Jesus Himself, which warn of religious men teaching differently than what God teaches. And also aligns with all the examples of religious men through out the Bible who teach differently than what God teaches.

So given that God is not a liar, at least not in my mind, there are "many" religious men who teach differently than God.

This is a Biblical, Spiritual, truth that can not be denied if one relies on the Holy Scriptures for doctrine.
So, because you have studied for 25 years I am to take your word for telling me I am wrong for everything???  Come on brother/sister, telling me I am following the teachings of men, but then not explaining how I have done this is, at best,  very shallow.

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You have provided a perfect example of a man who has been influenced by "other Voices" of religious men that teach falsehoods. God did not command Israel to obey 613 laws. This number was made up by religious men to make God look like an unjust God who burdens His People with countless, burdensome laws. This is done to convince people to reject God's Laws, just as the "other religious voice" convinced Eve. It is a lie, a falsehood which you promote, but can not back up.
The Jews to whom the 613 laws of the Sinai covenant was given to are the ones that have counted them and claim there were 613.  You were quick to tell me I am promoting a lie yet you didn't correct me with the truth.  I suppose you took the time to count all of them, so why not instead of intimidation just tell me what is  the truth.

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The Mainstream Preachers of Christ's time did the same thing. They also taught lies about God and His Laws to convince folks to follow the religious tradition of man, which transgressed the Commandments of God.
You really need to know I am not buying anything you have written.  Where is the meat!!!  How about some facts instead of just blowing in the wind?

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There is no 613 laws commanded by God for Israel to follow. It is an insidious lie that you will not even try to defend, if you actually really ever looked at the website that promotes this myth.
Hogwash!  I have gone over each one trying to find one I needed to post.  www.jewfaq.org

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The sad thing is that because of Pride, even when religious men look at this myth and see that they were deceived, the humiliation of admitting their error is just too much to bear for most.
The real sad thein is your coming on here and not adding anything to the debate except hot air.

Quote
My hope for you is that you will look into this myth and be corrected. Then maybe we can have an intellectually honest discussion about scriptures. Until then, this conversation is a vanity.
Look friend I am near 85 years old and I am not about to waste my time adding up the defunct laws of the old covenant.  If you are not willing to give us the "real" facts then so be it.  It is not a matter of salvation anyway.  In fact, I think it was petty of you to bring it up in the first place, especially leaving us without what you say you have learned.


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What I pitch is what the Scriptures say, all of them, not just a few that can be wrested to promote some religious tradition of men.
So far all you have "pitched" is hot air

Quote
See, you are doing it again. You are promoting falsehood you heard from some religious man somewhere.
All you have done is criticize.  Where is the meat???

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Joshua 2:9 And she said unto the men, I know that the LORD hath given you the land, and that your terror is fallen upon us, and that all the inhabitants of the land faint because of you.

10 For we have heard how the LORD dried up the water of the Red sea for you, when ye came out of Egypt; and what ye did unto the two kings of the Amorites, that were on the other side Jordan, Sihon and Og, whom ye utterly destroyed.

The whole city of Jericho knew of the God of Abraham and His Chosen People. They could all have become Rehab's if they chose and God would have accepted them just as HIS Laws that He gave Israel promised.

Did the Jews have an advantage? Yes, much in every way, because God did give HIS Laws to them. But with many God was not well pleased, because they rebelled against Him. They didn't follow God's Laws, but rejected them and "taught for doctrines the Commandments of men". But had they listened to God and taught the truth, there would have been a lot more Rehabs.

Is. 56:6 Also the sons of the stranger, (Non- Jews)that join themselves to the LORD, to serve him, and to love the name of the LORD, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant;

7 Even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted upon mine altar; for mine house shall be called an house of prayer for all people.

But Israel refused to teach God's Way.

Ez. 36:20 And when they entered unto the heathen, whither they went, they profaned my holy name, when they said to them, These are the people of the LORD, and are gone forth out of his land.

21 But I had pity for mine holy name, which the house of Israel had profaned among the heathen, whither they went.

Paul confirms.

Rom. 2:23 Thou that makest thy boast of the law, through breaking the law dishonourest thou God?

24 For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles through you, as it is written.

It wasn't God's Law that separated the rest of the world from Him, it was the corrupt Preachers of the first covenant God made with Israel, charged with the Priesthood duties of administering God's Laws and providing for atonement of sins.
::frown::

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Yes, and we can even go straight to the Creator of the New Covenant and hear the Christ Himself define it for us.
Jesus didn't come on the scene until His Birth.  It was the Word.   The Word was made flesh.  I hope that helps.

Quote
Jer. 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel;

OK Beam, here it is. You can read it for yourself without any "Priest" as a middle man. Just you, and the Word of God which became flesh.

 After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, (Just as He said, just you and the Word's of the Christ) and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more. (No Levitical Priesthood "works of the Law" needed, just you and the Christ.
Ah ha! pretty sneaky.  Why did you leave out the best part.  You think others do not know scripture?  32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord: Now why would you do a thing like that?
 

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There, you are doing it again. Preaching things about God's Word that are untrue. You just read HIM defining HIS New Covenant.

Ha! I read your sneaky version.  Again, why would you want to such a thing?

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Where does He say this anywhere in His Inspired Holy Scriptures?
Didn't you write that you have been studying scripture for 25 years and you have yet to realize that christians are under the new and better covenant?

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He doesn't Beam.
Wrong, wrong and more wrong.  The Sabbath was given on tablets of stone at Mt. Sinai.  Paul, the ambassador of Jesus wrote in 2Cor 3:6-11 KJV that the 10 were done away.  No, not Mose face as you so like to think.  If you have any grasp of the English language you know when you read it that it was the 10 commandments.

 
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Religious man does, but God's Word doesn't. Read for yourself.

Paul never did any such thing. Here is what Paul said.

Col. 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

The Sabbaths of the Lord are HIS Sabbaths, created for man. They are not a creation of man, or a tradition of Man. It's in your own Bible.

16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:

17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

Religious traditions of men are shadows of nothing.

Again, like your 613 laws myth, you are listening to "other religious voices" like Eve did. I implore you to "come out of her" and look into the scriptures your own self.
I will say one thing, you sure can twist scripture to fit your preconceived purpose.
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This verse doesn't say God destroyed His Laws that He promised to write on the hearts of His People. The "Glory of Moses" was done away with, "Moses Seat", the manner in which God's Law is administered. No more death to atone for sins. You are being tricked by religious men if you think this verse wipes out the New Covenant the Christ promised.
That is what you would like for it to say.  As I said above one must have a grasp of the English language to properly understand that it was the 10 he was referring.  Verse 7 says: 7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious.  It was not Mose face that was glorious.   Verse 8 says:8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious? 
  More glorious that Mose head?  You have to be kidding comparing Moses head with the Holy Spirit.  It doesn't fit now does it?  Verse 9 we read:  9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.  Where does Moses head fit into that equation?  Verse 10 says: 10 For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth.
All Moses head did was to reflect the glory of the 10 commandments.  And then comes the clincher: 11
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For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.
  "Is" in the sentence present tense, "was" in the sentence is past tense.   Paul is telling us that the 10 commandments as Israel's guid has been replaced with the Holy Spirit as our guide.  25 years of study ahd you still do not have it all right.
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That is another myth you have learned from religious man. And have been convinced to promote it.
Did someone else help you to be hoodwinked or did you do it by yourself?


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Is 58:13 If thou turn away thy foot from the sabbath, from doing thy pleasure on my holy day; and call the sabbath a delight, the holy of the LORD, honourable; and shalt honour him, not doing thine own ways, nor finding thine own pleasure, nor speaking thine own words:

It was only Holy for Israel because it was Holy to God.
Yes it WAS.  Jesus was born a man under the laws of the Sinai covenant.  Of course He honored those laws he was under.  A better covenant was on the horizon.






Online RB

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Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
« Reply #242 on: Mon Jan 13, 2020 - 04:01:21 »
GB, seems like others have you pretty well figured you out!
Quote from: GB  beam on: Yesterday at 21:42:39
You really need to know I am not buying anything you have written.  Where is the meat!!!  How about some facts instead of just blowing in the wind?
Quote from: GB  beam on: Yesterday at 21:42:39
The real sad is your coming on here and not adding anything to the debate except hot air
Quote from: GB  beam on: Yesterday at 21:42:39
All you have done is criticize.  Where is the meat???
Quote from: GB  beam on: Yesterday at 21:42:39
Jesus didn't come on the scene until His Birth.  It was the Word.   The Word was made flesh.  I hope that helps.
Mr. Beam, he does not believe that Jesus was BOTH God and man~I have asked him to come here and debate me on this all-important doctrine, yet he refuses to do so. http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/seventh-day-adventist-forum-(sda)/michael-the-archangel-one-who-is-god/ I desire to expose him for who he truly is: antichrist spirit!
Quote from: THE HOLY GHOST
2nd John 9-11~"Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son. If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed: For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds."
Mr. Beam pointed out:
Quote from: GB  beam on: Yesterday at 21:42:39
Ah ha! pretty sneaky.  Why did you leave out the best part.  You think others do not know scripture?  32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord: Now why would you do a thing like that?
Becuase he is deceived and laboring to deceive others! He truly does not believe in the NEW COVENANT because he is a SON OF ISMAEL. We know what the scriptures said to do with such people! Galatians 4 They will NOT be heirs with the children of God's PROMISES and His holy OATH!
Quote from: GB  beam on: Yesterday at 21:42:39
Didn't you write that you have been studying scripture for 25 years and you have yet to realize that christians are under the new and better covenant?
Because they are children of the BONDWOMAN!
Quote from: GB  beam on: Yesterday at 21:42:39
Yes it WAS.  Jesus was born a man under the laws of the Sinai covenant.  Of course He honored those laws he was under.  A better covenant was on the horizon.
God had ALWAYS worked under the New Covenant toward his people from Abel on, yet the FULL revelation of the New Covenant became known at the death of its Testator and all of its heirs~CHILDREN OF FREE GRACE, not of the works of the first covenant, but children of two immutable acts of God...His promise of FREE GRACE based upon his holy oath! A Sure anchor for our hope of eternal life! All of God's children shouted AMEN and AMEN!

« Last Edit: Mon Jan 13, 2020 - 04:05:23 by RB »

Offline Michael2012

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Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
« Reply #243 on: Mon Jan 13, 2020 - 04:10:56 »
Quote from: Michael
Quote from: GB
Did the Jews have an advantage? Yes, much in every way, because God did give HIS Laws to them.
If your statement is true, can you tell us how that is an advantage and much in every way?
Because there is a God and He has Oracles.

3 For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?

4 God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.

In other words, God's Oracles are true, and religious men who preach against them, add to them or take away from them are liars. Today, because of the Christ's New Covenant, we all have the "Oracles of God" as He promised.

In these oracles there are commandments that "many" just don't believe in. Like the Command to Keep the Sabbath of the Lord Holy, and don't work on it. (Servile)

Heb. 4:4 For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works.

5 And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest.

6 Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief:

These are those who despised and Polluted His Holy Sabbath Day.

9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.

10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.

11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.

It is a big advantage for us to have in all our homes, the oracles of God. We don't have to depend on religious men for our "instruction in righteousness", for doctrines, or correction. We have every thing we need to be "wise unto Salvation".

This is a huge advantage over those who must rely on religious men for their knowledge.

Apparently, what you say there is not quite what your statements "Did the Jews have an advantage? Yes, much in every way, because God did give HIS Laws to them." say. For you say at first "HIS Laws" and here you say "oracles".

This is what we have in scriptures in relation to your statements:

Romans 3: 1 What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?

2 Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.


While it is true that God gave them His laws, it is different from the committing the Oracles of God. The oracles of God not only are about His law but a lot more such as prophecies and promises.

You said "We have every thing we need to be "wise unto Salvation".

What is it you refer to "every thing" which you say we need to be wise unto salvation?

Offline Michael2012

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Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
« Reply #244 on: Mon Jan 13, 2020 - 04:12:36 »
Quote from: Michael
GB, can you kindly point to all the scriptures where the commandments, statutes, ordinances, judgments of God can be found, that you consider the law of God (besides the Sabbath day) that He gave for all men to keep, so the board can consider and examine them?

I'm sure you would claim to know them and keep them.
If you don't know what God's Laws are, you shouldn't be preaching as if you do.

Well, I thought I can see some kindness. Well....

I requested this for the purpose stated in my post, not because I don't know what God's laws are. But what I don't know is what you consider the law of God. If you want yourself to be understood, you owe anyone here, when asked, to tell them what they ask of you that would clarify what you mean to say. For example you speak of Sabbath. If one ask you for the definition of Sabbath or what Sabbath means to you for clarification so that he would understand what you are saying by it, should you not tell them, or should you rather ridicule their asking? You speak of God's law. If one ask you what you consider to be the law of God that He gave for all men to keep, for clarification, so the board can consider and examine them, should you not tell them, or should you rather ridicule their asking? Well that says a lot about you ....