author=Michael2012 link=topic=74624.msg1055154587#msg1055154587 date=1578912938]
According to the context in which Paul used it, I hope I am Spiritually alive, not dead according to the Letter. (The wages of sin is death) If I am Spiritually dead, then I am under the Law.
You hope? Why, do you have doubts whether you are spiritually alive or dead?
Rom. 8:24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
25 But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.
I know Eve was convinced she was all set as do you and "many" who come in Christ's Name. But Eve was deceived. This is an example written for my admonition, used for doctrine, correction, and instruction in righteousness. You are convinced Jesus isn't the "Repairer of the Breech". Just because you are convinced of something, doesn't make it truth.
And since you are hoping to be spiritually alive, you indirectly are saying that you are hoping to NOT be under the law. At least you correctly hope to be not under the Law. But let me tell you this, that perhaps, it will erase your doubts. Scriptures says that those who are in Christ, the believer that is, are NOT under the Law, but are under grace.
Scriptures say a lot of things. Like "Not everyone who calls Me Lord, Lord, shall enter the Kingdom of heaven". So just because you are convinced Jesus is your Lord, doesn't make it so.
Matt. 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you
: depart from me, ye that work iniquity
If I am still dead, I have already been judged by the Law. But if I am alive because of God's Grace, I can become a new man, and "Strive to enter" another path. One that respects God and Honors God with my body.
1 Cor. 6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? 20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.
In other words, you agree that one who is under the Law is judged by the Law. SO, we agree on that.
No, you are cleaver in your little gotcha games and all, and I am bored so I'll play your games for the exercise for a little longer, but you are mis-representing my belief here. If I am already spiritually dead, the law has already judged me. It is not still judging me because the dead are not judged any longer. "For he that is dead is freed from sin." The Law only judges those who are alive.
16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
You said "If I am still dead, I have already been judged by the Law. But if I am alive because of God's Grace, I can become a new man, and "Strive to enter" another path." I understand and so take that when you say "dead" there in your statement, you refer to being dead in sin. Thus, before you were made alive because of God's grace, you were dead (in sin) first. And one who says they are alive because of God's grace, only means that they were saved from death or being dead. And saved from death as he already is by God's grace, by God's grace also he is made alive and continue to live. Let me share to you the following scriptures:
John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
Now, he who was dead and now was made alive, is a new man.
Maybe? "If I continue in His Goodness", otherwise I shall be cut off.
Maybe? "if I depart from iniquity", otherwise Jesus doesn't even know me.
Maybe? "if" I keep His Commandments.
I can "Put on the New Man", I can "Strive to enter a certain gate", I can "put on the Armor of God", I can look for the "Escapes" God gives me in every temptation. "I can not let disobedience to God reign in my mortal body", I can "resist the devil".
These are all things a man who is alive can do to overcome in this life. A dead man can do none of these things.
Not because he can of himself become a new man, but that because God had created him anew in righteousness and true holiness ~ he is born again. He is God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that he should walk in them.
Jesus doesn't "deny Himself for us". Jesus doesn't "continue in His Goodness" for us. Jesus doesn't "put on the New Man" for us. Jesus doesn't "Depart from iniquity" for us. He raises us up a "New Man", who can made new choices, and who can "serve righteousness" instead of serve sin. Jesus doesn't "serve Righteousness for us" He doesn't "Walk in the good works foreordained by God that we should walk in them" for us.
Matt. 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them
, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
Jesus doesn't "Do them" for us.
Yes, "many" who come in Christ's Name preach just that. That we are raised from the dead and are not obligated to do anything. Jesus does it all for us. But this is one of the many religions Jesus and His Prophets and Disciples warned to stay away from.
If I am dead, which is what it means to be "Under the Law", then I am free from sin. The dead can not praise God. But if I am alive by God's Grace, then I am not my own. I am purchased with HIS Blood. My old self crucified with Him. Now I am a "servant" of the Christ of the Bible, running the race that is set before me, striving against sin, and striving to enter the Narrow Path. I am bound to the one whom I serve, as it is written.
You said "If I am dead, which is what it means to be "Under the Law", then I am free from sin." So if you are alive, what that means to you is that you are "NOT under the Law". Right? And so also, by what you say there, if you are "NOT under the law" then you are NOT free from sin. "NOT free" to me denotes slavery, being bound, confined as in the case of a prisoner. Won't you like to review and reconsider what you are saying there?
I am bound. I am a servant to whom I obey. You aren't. In your religion you are "Free from God's Laws". But according to the Scriptures, all of them, we are free from the wages of sin, not the definition of sin.
I am not ashamed of the Scriptures Michael. I'm fine with being a New Man, and this time a servant to righteousness, instead of a servant to transgression of God's Laws.
I suspect that there is something needed to be clarified in all of that. What do you mean by "dead" in your statement? Are you referring to being dead in sin as that spoken in Ephesians 2:1 or are you referring to being dead to sin as that spoken in Romans 6:2?
Eph. 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
2 Wherein in time past
ye walked according to the course of this world
, according to the prince of the power of the air
, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience
These are people who are snared by the religions of the land. "Children of Disobedience". So when I see a person who is furthering a religion which rejects God's commandments, I know these folks are not alive, but dead. Because if they were alive, they would be "walking" in the "good works" God before ordained that they should walk in them, not preach to the world that there are "free" from them.
Romans 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin
, that grace may abound?
2 God forbid
. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein
Same definition as Eph. 2.
Also, by implication, you are saying that one who serves the law (servant of the Law, so to speak) is bound by the law.
It depends on what Law you are talking about here. If you are talking about the Levitical Priesthood the Jews were pushing, with it's "works of the Law" for justification of sins, that God "ADDED" to His existing Law "Till the Seed should come", then no, I don't serve that "ADDED" Law. I serve the Christ who promised of a Covenant "after those days" when HE would atone for my sins with His own Blood. I am justified by Faith, not by the Levitical Priesthood sacrificial "works of the Law" That Law was changed and Jesus is now my High Priest.
But if you are talking about the definition of sin, the two greatest Commandments and all that defines them (Law and Prophets) then I am absolutely bound by them. Aren't you?
I mean "Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience
I'd like to mention, and so be aware, at this point that the law we speak of here is the law of God which He gave to Israel when He took them out of Egypt. I get the impression by your answers so far, that you are not bound by the law because you said you are now a servant of Christ, so not a servant of the law.
How can I be a servant of the Christ, and not "DO" what He instructs? I can say I'm a servant of Christ. I can have a I heart Jesus bumper sticker on my car, a WWJD bracelet on my wrist. But if I "practice disobedience to God's Laws" He doesn't even know me. At least this is what the Christ of the Bible teaches.
So again you evade the issue question, that is, "If you are under the law, if you keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, would you say you are guilty of all?". Not one of the scriptures you quoted answers the question GB. The very simple question evidently is too hard for you to answer. It amazes me indeed. Let me help you have courage by sharing this scriptures:
James 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
There you go. The only thing left for you to do is believe and accept that. So when one speaks a lie, he is said to be guilty of breaking all, that is, he is also then guilty of breaking the 4th commandment, don't you agree? Some see that as unjust and unfair. How about you? Do you see it the same way? Now, you know fully well that any one who breaks even a single commandment of God is a sinner. Now, what scriptures say regarding this is:
Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
I don't evade your question Michael. I answered it perfectly. Here, let me answer it again, this time so even a child can understand the reason for my hope.
I am hopeful of the promises of the Christ.
1 John 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not
This is the goal of the New Man. We are children learning obedience to the Father. The first thing we are told, "don't disobey the Father".
But if we slip, if we don't see the escape from the temptation, if we drop the shield of the Armor of God, if we mess up like children do, have faith. And if any man sin
, we have an advocate with the Father
, Jesus Christ the righteous:
2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only
, but also for the sins of the whole world
So if I break one, I break them all. That is why we are to "Strive against sin". Transgressing God's Laws is very, very bad. We are told "don't do it". But if we do, if we fall down, get back up and run the race that is set before us.
3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments
This is how we know God writes His Commandments on our hearts, if we keep them.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments
, is a liar
, and the truth is not in him.
Paul warns of these religious men, who come in His Name, as does Jesus. If they aren't honoring and "laboring" to walk in the "good works" God before Ordained that we should walk in them, the are still dead in their sins.
5 But whoso keepeth his word
, in him verily is the love of God perfected
: hereby know we that we are in him.
It is in this obedience that we are humbled, that we learn, that we are strengthened. God's Love, His Commandments, are perfected in us when we walk in them, not when we reject them.
6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk
, even as he walked
We are on a journey, that is Paul was and I am.
Paul, a former Pharisee, explains my heart better than I can.
Phil. 3:8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things
, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,
His religion, his friends, his own religious traditions. I don't think you really know what humiliation Paul suffered when the Christ showed him that the religion he and his family and fathers had followed for centuries, with teaching for doctrines the Commandments of men, were not from God, but from the devil. He was so zealous, so convinced he was a good Child of Abraham. But he was deceived. That's a tough pill for any religious man to swallow.
9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law
, but that which is through the faith of Christ
, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
Paul used to take a turtle dove to the Levite Priest, according to the "ADDED" Law given by Moses on Mt. Sinai, to cleanse him of his sins and make him righteous. And his religious brethren after the flesh, were still relying on the "priesthood "Works of the Law" for cleansing their unrighteousness. But he learned that no man is justified by "works of the law", and that his brethren, after the flesh, were not obeying God, but their own religious traditions.
10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;
11 If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.
Paul also lived in hope, as I do.
12 Not as though I had already attained
, either were already perfect
: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.
Paul stumbled as well. He knew he wasn't yet perfected, but he continued to strive to this end.
13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended
: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind
, and reaching forth unto those things which are before
14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling
of God in Christ Jesus.
15 Let us therefore, as many as be perfect
, be thus minded
: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.
So there is a detailed answer, using much the same scriptures you ignored, only this time I explained so even a child can understand.
I will address the rest on another post