author=Michael2012 link=topic=74624.msg1055154753#msg1055154753 date=1579252730]
You are confused.
Paul is speaking of two things in Col. 2.
One is a warning about religious men and their Philosophy and traditions of men we are to beware of.
The other is the Good, Just and Spiritual Commandments of God which include His Holy Feasts and Sabbaths and creation laws such as clean and unclean animals.
On the religious doctrines and traditions of men, Paul is rebuking them. But in the observances of God's Commandments, he is telling them to "Let no man judge them" in the voluntary humility in submitting to these ways of the Christ.
Traditions of men are shadows of nothing and are evil, according to God, especially if following them leads to transgression of God Commandments (Sin), the Christ's Feasts are shadows of His Salvation plan which begins with Passover.
The Jews, who were teaching for doctrines the commandments of men, placed restrictions and burdens on the people, through their own laws, that were against them, contrary to them.
21 (Touch not; taste not; handle not;
Jesus addressed some of these in the Scriptures. Like making it a sin against God to eat a piece of bread without first having washed the hands a certain way, or they made it a sin to take a walk in fellowship on His Holy Sabbath and pick an apple or ear of corn to eat.
These are traditions of men. While Passover and Feast of Unleavened bread, and HIS Sabbaths and Feasts are of the God of the Bible.
I know that in Col.2, Paul gives warning, saying "Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ."
But our issue here is what Paul said in verse 16-17. Clearly you agreed that the things mentioned in verse 16, including the Sabbath days, foreshadows Christ and are not bad or evil, but are good. They aren't the "spoiled traditions and commandments of men", but are the commandments, statutes, ordinances, with regards dietary (meat and drink) observances, festival (holyday and new moons) observances, and sabbath day observances, written in the Law, in the book of the law.
SO MY POINT REMAINS, THAT THE SABBATHS SPOKEN OF IN VERSE 16 REFER TO THOSE WHICH WERE WRITTEN IN THE BOOK OF THE LAW AND ARE GOD GIVEN COMMANDMENTS THROUGH MOSES AND ARE NOT COMMANDMENTS OF MEN.
Let me proceed to show you. Now, of this, Paul said "Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:" In other words, Paul tells them to not allow no one to criticize their action on the ground that it is not in harmony with the precepts of the Law concerning those things mentioned. For at best these things were but the shadow, the substance of which is the Christ. One must realize that these things mentioned in verse 16 are but shadows, while the very substance these things foreshadows, that is, Christ, had already come, whom the Christian already have with them.
You are missing some key points here. You are assuming the Catholic doctrine that God's Laws didn't exist until He gave them to Moses, is true. The reality is God's Laws have always existed, except for the Law "ADDED" because of transgression "till the Seed should come", that is, the Levitical Priesthood.
You were doing pretty good until this part, "Had already come". The Scriptures teach "are shadows of things to come".
Religious man has created their own way, their own high days, their own image of God created in the likeness of some long haired men's hair shampoo model. Paul is telling the truly repentant not to let these men, through Philosophy, spoil them.
A good example of this Philosophy would be like a person saying "I keep every day Holy", every day is a Sabbath." This sounds good, just as the fruit looked good to Eve. But it projects a false message. Did God tell us to only serve Him 1 day a week? But this man is more Holy than God by declaring HIS Commandment is not worthy of his respect, while the doctrines and commandments of men are.
Is God so dense, so unsophisticated, so off base that He didn't know what He was doing when He created these "Shadows", so religious men must correct Him as did also the Pharisees to His Sabbath?
I would ask the question, "why not just submit to the Christ, and walk as He did"?
By that, the Christian really are under no judgment with respect to food, of an holyday, of the new moons, or of the sabbath days. And why would they be judged when Christ, the very substance of what those things foreshadows, is with them?
So then the religious traditions of man, not God, are those Paul said to beware of. And we know God's Commandments which include Sabbaths and Laws are not traditions of men, but of the Christ.
So it is a religious tradition of man to reject God's Sabbaths and Laws. So those who Love Him and follow Him, who have denied themselves and repented from following the traditions of religious men, these are true "Christians" Yes?
You are twisting this verse as well Michael. It doesn't say men are under no judgment in respect of an Holy Day. It says "Let no MAN Judge you in respect of the Laws and Commandments of God. "Let no man
beguile you" of your reward in your voluntary humility".
These things are fulfilled in Christ and so in those in whom Christ dwells. As Paul said in verse 10, that the Christian is complete in Christ. That even the Gentile Christian, who is not of the circumcision, Paul said, are circumcised in Christ.
Not all these things have been fulfilled in Christ. The eternal Sabbath rest for God's people, the 2nd coming, the great throne judgment, these are all "Shadows of things (still) to come". This is why the Christ commanded HIS People, even the Stranger, to keep from polluting them.
Sad to say, there are those who actually believe that some person, religious system, or discipline can add something to their spiritual experience. But they already have everything they ever will need in the person and work of Jesus Christ.
Yes, if they trust His instructions enough to follow them. If they are a "doer" of HIS Word, and not a hearer only. That is why Paul encouraged the truly repentant not to let religious men judge them, or beguile them of their devotion to Him. They were surrounded by religious men who transgressed God's Commandments by their own religious traditions. He warned not to be influenced by their religious traditions "taste not, touch not". Which all perish as do all the religious traditions of men. But the Word's of the God of the Bible, last forever.
IF YOU UNDERSTAND WHAT IT MEANS TO BE COMPLETE IN CHRIST AND BELIEVES THAT THE CHRISTIAN IS COMPLETE IN CHRIST, YOU WILL UNDERSTAND THAT IN CHRIST, THE CHRISTIAN FULFILLED AND FULFILLS THE LAW.
Breaking His Law, rejecting HIS Law, denying His Law, re-writing His Law, is not fulfilling His Law. The true Christian doesn't do any of these things. But we are warned of "MANY" who come in Christ's Name that do, through Philosophy. Don't forget what Jesus Himself said;
Matt. 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord
, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven
; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name
? and in thy name
have cast out devils? and in thy name
done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess
unto them, I never knew you
: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Also, you will realize that the things spoken in verse 16, including the sabbath days, were but shadows pointing to Christ that leads one to Christ and so are of no concern to the Christian now, now that he already is in Christ and is complete in Him. Such things may well be of service or concern for the onlooker (unbeliever, unconverted), but no longer for the Christian.
That is the Catholic religion, religious traditions of men. The Priesthood "works of the Laws" of atonement was to lead men to Christ, "Till the Seed should come". Like it did for Zechariahs, and Simeon. Even Abraham knew about the Passover Lamb.
Also, what you just said is basically the same argument the Serpent made to Eve. Both the argument of the serpent and yours would result in men rejecting God's Commandments, through the Philosophy of religious voices.
The Bible teaches a true Christian no such thing. If fact, it teaches the opposite.
Rom. 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness
: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off
Paul warned the truly repentant in Col. 2 of this very same thing, not to be tricked by religious men into turning again to the religious doctrines and traditions of men they denied when they repented.
Yet, this is exactly what you are saying. That Honoring God through Honoring the Sabbaths of God led you to Christ, now you don't have to Honor Him in it any more in it.
I know this is what is taught in the religions of the land, but it is a "vain deceit".
20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,
Now, concerning the following:
21 (Touch not; taste not; handle not;
22 Which all are to perish with the using;) after the commandments and doctrines of men?
23 Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body: not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh.
In these verses, Paul expanded on the error he already alluded to in verse 8, namely: asceticism. The ascetic practices ("rudiments of the world") he referred to seem to have been connected to, or were extensions of, Mosaic Law, concerning the things he mentioned in verse 16.
Hogwash. these men were dead to the rudiments of the world, not God's Commandments. God gave Laws to Abraham, and to Moses. They are God's Laws, not "rudiments of the world". You are making the same mistake the Pharisees did.
Rom. 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God
, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
You are forgetting that the Pharisees were teaching for doctrines the Commandments of Men, not God. They had their own Sabbaths, their own High Days and images of God in the likeness of men, just as the religions of the land have today.
Paul isn't talking about God's Commandments here, he is speaking to the traditions of men "touch no, taste not" burdens that religious men had placed on the people. Like Lent.
Now while a Christian, especially the Jew, is dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, it is still possible for him to put oneself under these things, and again live like unbelievers in the world.
People who deny themselves and strive to walk "even as He walked" are not unbelievers. In your religion, yes, in the Pharisees religion, yes. But not according to the Gospel.
And it seems that at the time of Paul, there were such Jewish Christians who not only live like so, but even go to teach others, especially the Gentile Christians, to do the same. So, Paul told them that such was an error and shall not be like so. So he argues in verses 20-23.
Again, your preaching that Paul taught folks to reject God's Laws is a false teaching. Paul taught folks the same as Jesus and the same as the Prophets. "(For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified."
These false teachers then who seem to force the Colossians to live by the world system, by placing various ascetic requirements on them. The things spoken of in verse 21 refer to such requirements, which in verse 22, Paul points out the inadequacy of these ordinances/laws saying of such "all are to perish with the using; after the commandments and doctrines of men."
It is sad that you have succumbed to the "other religious voices" out there. That you equate God's Commandments with pagan rituals and rudiments of the world. That you imply that Jesus spent His life walking a Path that Paul teaches against.
But the truth is, before repentance, we all are deceived in believing the "other voice", just as Eve was.
But you have His Word's right in your home now. There will be no excuse when He comes back.
Matt. 13:41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.