Author Topic: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.  (Read 7939 times)

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Offline Michael2012

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Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
« Reply #280 on: Fri Jan 17, 2020 - 03:18:50 »
Quote from: Michael
If you say that what I've written in my quoted post there is true, then you agree that what is said in verse 16 which has to do with eating, drinking, of holy days, new moons and even sabbath days, being a shadow of Christ, are not bad or evil.

If such things foreshadows Christ and are not bad or evil, but are good, why do you say they refer to traditions of men and rudiments of the world? Can these traditions of men and rudiments of the world you refer to, be said to be a shadow of things to come, the body of which is of Christ?
You are confused.

Paul is speaking of two things in Col. 2.

One is a warning about religious men and their Philosophy and traditions of men we are to beware of.

The other is the Good, Just and Spiritual Commandments of God which include His Holy Feasts and Sabbaths and creation laws such as clean and unclean animals.

 On the religious doctrines and traditions of men, Paul is rebuking them. But in the observances of God's Commandments, he is telling them to "Let no man judge them" in the voluntary humility in submitting to these ways of the Christ.

Traditions of men are shadows of nothing and are evil, according to God, especially if following them leads to transgression of God Commandments (Sin), the Christ's Feasts are shadows of His Salvation plan which begins with Passover.

The Jews, who were teaching for doctrines the commandments of men, placed restrictions and burdens on the people, through their own laws, that were against them, contrary to them.

21 (Touch not; taste not; handle not;

Jesus addressed some of these in the Scriptures. Like making it a sin against God to eat a piece of bread without first having washed the hands a certain way, or they made it a sin to take a walk in fellowship on His Holy Sabbath and pick an apple or ear of corn to eat.

These are traditions of men. While Passover and Feast of Unleavened bread, and HIS Sabbaths and Feasts are of the God of the Bible.

I know that in Col.2, Paul gives warning, saying "Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ."

But our issue here is what Paul said in verse 16-17. Clearly you agreed that the things mentioned in verse 16, including the Sabbath days, foreshadows Christ and are not bad or evil, but are good. They aren't the "spoiled traditions and commandments of men", but are the commandments, statutes, ordinances, with regards dietary (meat and drink) observances, festival (holyday and new moons) observances, and sabbath day observances, written in the Law, in the book of the law.

SO MY POINT REMAINS, THAT THE SABBATHS SPOKEN OF IN VERSE 16 REFER TO THOSE WHICH WERE WRITTEN IN THE BOOK OF THE LAW AND ARE GOD GIVEN COMMANDMENTS THROUGH MOSES AND ARE NOT COMMANDMENTS OF MEN. 

Let me proceed to show you. Now, of this, Paul said "Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:" In other words, Paul tells them to not allow no one to criticize their action on the ground that it is not in harmony with the precepts of the Law concerning those things mentioned. For at best these things were but the shadow, the substance of which is the Christ. One must realize that these things mentioned in verse 16 are but shadows, while the very substance these things foreshadows, that is, Christ, had already come, whom the Christian already have with them. By that, the Christian really are under no judgment with respect to food, of an holyday, of the new moons, or of the sabbath days. And why would they be judged when Christ, the very substance of what those things foreshadows, is with them? These things are fulfilled in Christ and so in those in whom Christ dwells. As Paul said in verse 10, that the Christian is complete in Christ. That even the Gentile Christian, who is not of the circumcision, Paul said, are circumcised in Christ.

Sad to say, there are those who actually believe that some person, religious system, or discipline can add something to their spiritual experience. But they already have everything they ever will need in the person and work of Jesus Christ.

IF YOU UNDERSTAND WHAT IT MEANS TO BE COMPLETE IN CHRIST AND BELIEVES THAT THE CHRISTIAN IS COMPLETE IN CHRIST, YOU WILL UNDERSTAND THAT IN CHRIST, THE CHRISTIAN FULFILLED AND FULFILLS THE LAW. Also, you will realize that the things spoken in verse 16, including the sabbath days, were but shadows pointing to Christ that leads one to Christ and so are of no concern to the Christian now, now that he already is in Christ and is complete in Him. Such things may well be of service or concern for the onlooker (unbeliever, unconverted), but no longer for the Christian. 

20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,

Now, concerning the following:

21 (Touch not; taste not; handle not;

22 Which all are to perish with the using;) after the commandments and doctrines of men?

23 Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body: not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh.


In these verses, Paul expanded on the error he already alluded to in verse 8, namely: asceticism. The ascetic practices ("rudiments of the world") he referred to seem to have been connected to, or were extensions of, Mosaic Law, concerning the things he mentioned in verse 16. Now while a Christian, especially the Jew, is dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, it is still possible for him to put oneself under these things, and again live like unbelievers in the world. And it seems that at the time of Paul, there were such Jewish Christians who not only live like so, but even go to teach others, especially the Gentile Christians, to do the same. So, Paul told them that such was an error and shall not be like so. So he argues in verses 20-23.

These false teachers then who seem to force the Colossians to live by the world system, by placing various ascetic requirements on them. The things spoken of in verse 21 refer to such requirements, which in verse 22, Paul points out the inadequacy of these ordinances/laws saying of such "all are to perish with the using; after the commandments and doctrines of men."

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Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
« Reply #280 on: Fri Jan 17, 2020 - 03:18:50 »

Offline Michael2012

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Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
« Reply #281 on: Fri Jan 17, 2020 - 03:22:18 »

Offline RB

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Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
« Reply #282 on: Fri Jan 17, 2020 - 03:55:28 »
Yes, There is God the Father who  sent God the Son to create the heavens and the earth, and all that dwells therein. This Christ, whose Spirit moved the Prophets, who met Abraham, gave His Life, risked His Immortality, in service of God the Father. This "Word of God" which became Flesh was killed and raised from the dead a spiritual Body. It is this Christ that led the Children of Israel out of Egypt. It is this Christ that sit's on the right hand of His Father.
If anyone truly desires to know a true heretic then all you have to do is to test them concerning the doctrine of the Sonship of Jesus Christ~it is hard for them to hide that they are a bonafide scriptural heretic! I highlighted in red three serious heresies that he just posted.

Jesus Christ in his complex nature WAS GOD PERIOD! He was NOT sent to create the worlds, In his Divinity, he spoke the worlds into existence, NO ONE sent him to do this! AS the Son OF God, he was sent into the world, but he in his Divinity as ONE with God, was NOT sent to do anything.

The Word of God was NOT KILLED, Jesus the Son of Man died at the hands of wicked men.

God DID NOT risk His Immortality! That's blasphemy from an ignorant person of spiritual truths!

GB, Come here and debate me on this subject: http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/seventh-day-adventist-forum-(sda)/michael-the-archangel-one-who-is-god/  this is the third time that I have asked you to do so. It was you that said to winsome:
Quote from: GB on: Yesterday at 17:04:20
Because you are promoting certain religious traditions, you don't like to discuss them. That is a very common mindset for religious men as the Pharisees showed. But letting all the Light in is good for you, especially if it exposes darkness (falsehoods, deception)
You know GB, those are words of a biblical hypocrite~saying something against another person when you are just as guilty if not more so than those you are speaking to!

Let me go and answer the post to me from the man whose belly is full of the east wind!
Quote
Job 15:2,3~"Should a wise man utter vain knowledge, and fill his belly with the east wind? Should he reason with unprofitable talk? or with speeches wherewith he can do no good?"

« Last Edit: Fri Jan 17, 2020 - 04:03:16 by RB »

Offline RB

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Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
« Reply #283 on: Fri Jan 17, 2020 - 04:12:55 »
IF YOU UNDERSTAND WHAT IT MEANS TO BE COMPLETE IN CHRIST AND BELIEVES THAT THE CHRISTIAN IS COMPLETE IN CHRIST, YOU WILL UNDERSTAND THAT IN CHRIST, THE CHRISTIAN FULFILLED AND FULFILLS THE LAW. Also, you will realize that the things spoken in verse 16, including the sabbath days, were but shadows pointing to Christ that leads one to Christ and so are of no concern to the Christian now, now that he already is in Christ and is complete in Him. Such things may well be of service or concern for the onlooker (unbeliever, unconverted), but no longer for the Christian.
+1

Offline RB

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Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
« Reply #284 on: Fri Jan 17, 2020 - 04:42:02 »
I don't worship the day Red, I Honor the creator of it. I am simply posting scriptures which define the "Sabbath of the Lord". You are promoting the "sabbath of the Pope". You are angry because the scriptures don't support your Sabbath, but they do support the "Sabbath of the Lord".
The only way anyone can honor God is to honor his Son.
Quote from: Jesus Christ
John 5:23~"That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him."
It shall be very clear when we are finished posting to you that you REFUSE to honor the Son of God, thereby you do not honor God regardless of what you say otherwise. The Pharisees thought that they honored God when they blatantly rejected much of the scriptures concerning Jesus Christ, God's holy Son~and so do you.
Quote from: GB Reply #276 on: Yesterday at 10:29:14
Teaching to the world that Paul called the Commandments of God "Beggarly Elements", that is "Vain deceit" Red.
I have  a few times over given the true biblical sense of what it means that the WORKS OF THE LAW are beggarly elements, and I will not continuously do so~the commandments THEMSELVES are not weak and beggarly, but MAN'S wicked flesh is the problem in that there is NO possibility of inheriting eternal life THROUGH KEEPING THEM, for NO ONE CAN, one person did so, or could do so, and his name is JESUS CHRIST, who came and saved his people from their sins, being unable to do so of themselves! Enough said on this point for the umpteen time!
Quote from: GB Reply #276 on: Yesterday at 10:29:14
I am well versed in the Scriptures, it's the catholic doctrines you promote that I have trouble with.
You thinking so does not mean that you are. As far as my doctrine being Catholic, that's just one of the many logical fallacies that you use, because you have nothing more to say than to add that, as though that gives your position some credibility, which it adds not one thing to your doctrine, if anything, it takes from it.  Others can judge for themselves.
Quote from: GB Reply #276 on: Yesterday at 10:29:14
Yes Red, in all 4 gospels those disciples and followers of the Christ kept HIS Sabbath Holy even after HIS death. Of course they did. It is the "Sabbath of the Lord".
Coming back and picking up right at this point~I do not want to make this post too long, and neither do I want to rush through the next verse lines of your post. .......Later, RB

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Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
« Reply #284 on: Fri Jan 17, 2020 - 04:42:02 »



Offline Michael2012

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Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
« Reply #285 on: Fri Jan 17, 2020 - 04:54:18 »
To all who are concerned about the law on the sabbath, I have this question to ask.

Do righteousness come by the law, that you are so into the matter of the law on the Sabbath?

Offline winsome

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Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
« Reply #286 on: Fri Jan 17, 2020 - 05:27:10 »
To all who are concerned about the law on the sabbath, I have this question to ask.

Do righteousness come by the law, that you are so into the matter of the law on the Sabbath?
A good question to which I doubt you get a straight answer.

GB says "I'm living under the new Covenant. I don't take turtle doves to some Levite for the atonement of my sins. I don't have to find some Levite Priest to hear the Word of God."
But he believes he has to keep the Old Law sabbath!

Offline winsome

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Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
« Reply #287 on: Fri Jan 17, 2020 - 06:30:39 »
 As your post was so long I am going to respond in several posts.
 
 You seem to think that many words make an argument, but most of them are just padding and not relevant (or just insults).
 
 You say:
 

 You place a lot of trust in the religions of the land and their preachers.

and
 
I'm speaking to what the scriptures teach. What one religious man says or another religious group says, is of little consequence given all the warnings about religious men.

You are speaking of what you personally interpret scriptures to teach. 
Are you infallible?
Are you one of the best theologians of the last 2,000 years?
Are you one of the best apologists of the last 2,000 years?
 
I acknowledge that I am not. I acknowledge the skills, the knowledge, the understanding of the early church fathers; apologists and theologians such as Ignatius of Antioch, Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, Athansius, Augustine.

Irenaeus was only 2 generations from the apostle John 
Ignatius of Antioch was a contemporary of some of the apostles. Indeed Theodoret of Cyrus (5th century) says he was appointed to the see of Antioch by St. Peter himself. He and his friend Polycarp were reputed to be disciples of the apostles John.
To think you can sit down with a Bible and deduce all your beliefs from that by your own intellect is foolishness (and arrogant) in the extreme. You are effectively claiming to be infallible. No wonder you come up with strange ideas.
 
 What you are totally failing to do is to distinguish between God's moral laws,, applicable to all people over all time, and other types of laws given to certain peoples for a limited time.
 
 You also seem to be failing to understand Covenants and their applicability to the way God interacts with man.
 
 

Offline winsome

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Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
« Reply #288 on: Fri Jan 17, 2020 - 06:48:51 »

The Old (Mosaic) Covenant, along with it's laws and statutes was no more.
"In speaking of a new covenant he treats the first as obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away." (Heb 8:13)

What became obsolete was the Levitical Priesthood ….

What became obsolete was the Old (Mosaic) Covenant. That is what scripture actually says. It doesn't say that all that became obsolete was the Levitical Priesthood. What became obsolete was the whole Covenant with not just the levitical priesthood but it's Law.

Paul warns about going back to that Covenant in his letter to the Galatians.
For all who rely on works of the law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed be every one who does not abide by all things written in the book of the law, and do them.” Gal 3:10
and
You are separated from Christ, you who are trying to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace. (Gal 5:4)

If you go back to the (Old Covenant) Law. You are no longer "in Christ"; you are no longer in the New Covenant.

Offline Michael2012

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Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
« Reply #289 on: Fri Jan 17, 2020 - 06:55:50 »
Quote from: Michael
Quote from: GB
According to the context in which Paul used it, I hope I am Spiritually alive, not dead according to the Letter. (The wages of sin is death) If I am Spiritually dead, then I am under the Law.
You hope? Why, do you have doubts whether you are spiritually alive or dead?

Rom. 8:24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?

25 But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.

I know Eve was convinced she was all set as do you and "many" who come in Christ's Name. But Eve was deceived. This is an example written for my admonition, used for doctrine, correction, and instruction in righteousness. You are convinced Jesus isn't the "Repairer of the Breech". Just because you are convinced of something, doesn't make it truth.

Obviously, you misunderstood what Paul is saying in the passage you quoted. Let me just tell you this, faith has no room for doubt. It's either you have faith that you were quickened with Christ or not.

The rest of what you said there have nothing at all to do with the issue in the question.

Quote from: GB
Quote from: Michael
And since you are hoping to be spiritually alive, you indirectly are saying that you are hoping to NOT be under the law. At least you correctly hope to be not under the Law. But let me tell you this, that perhaps, it will erase your doubts. Scriptures says that those who are in Christ, the believer that is, are NOT under the Law, but are under grace.
Scriptures say a lot of things. Like "Not everyone who calls Me Lord, Lord, shall enter the Kingdom of heaven". So just because you are convinced Jesus is your Lord, doesn't make it so.

Matt. 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

You said "So just because you are convinced Jesus is your Lord, doesn't make it so." I am convinced that Jesus is Lord and is the Lord, and I accepted that with all my heart. He is my judge, for He knows my heart and knows everything in fact.

Now, are you implying by what you say there in your post, that just because I am convinced that scriptures say that those who are in Christ, the believer that is, are NOT under the Law, but are under grace, that doesn't make it so? It seems to be then, if that is what you are saying, that you don't believe what scriptures say, that those who are in Christ, are NOT under the Law, but are under grace. Well, so be it with you.

Quote from: GB
Quote from: Michael
Quote from: GB
If I am still dead, I have already been judged by the Law. But if I am alive because of God's Grace, I can become a new man, and "Strive to enter" another path. One that respects God and Honors God with my body.

1 Cor. 6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? 20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.

In other words, you agree that one who is under the Law is judged by the Law. SO, we agree on that.

No, you are cleaver in your little gotcha games and all, and I am bored so I'll play your games for the exercise for a little longer, but you are mis-representing my belief here. If I am already spiritually dead, the law has already judged me. It is not still judging me because the dead are not judged any longer. "For he that is dead is freed from sin." The Law only judges those who are alive.

16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

You err again I have to say. If you are already "spiritually dead", it is correct to say that the law had already judged you. However, an "spiritually dead" person is not freed from sin, but actually lives in sin and is a slave of sin. Those who are freed from sin (no longer slaves of sin) are only those who are in Christ, having been quickened with Him.   

Quote from: GB
Quote from: Michael
You said "If I am still dead, I have already been judged by the Law. But if I am alive because of God's Grace, I can become a new man, and "Strive to enter" another path." I understand and so take that when you say "dead" there in your statement, you refer to being dead in sin. Thus, before you were made alive because of God's grace, you were dead (in sin) first. And one who says they are alive because of God's grace, only means that they were saved from death or being dead. And saved from death as he already is by God's grace, by God's grace also he is made alive and  continue to live. Let me share to you the following scriptures:

John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

Now, he who was dead and now was made alive, is a new man.
Maybe? "If I continue in His Goodness", otherwise I shall be cut off.

Maybe? "if I depart from iniquity", otherwise Jesus doesn't even know me.

Maybe? "if" I keep His Commandments.

I can "Put on the New Man", I can "Strive to enter a certain gate", I can "put on the Armor of God", I can look for the "Escapes" God gives me in every temptation. "I can not let disobedience to God reign in my mortal body", I can "resist the devil".

These are all things a man who is alive can do to overcome in this life. A dead man can do none of these things.

By that, you just exposed yourself to be without spiritual understanding of scriptures. I am not in any way glad to say that to you. But I just have to.

Your continuance in goodness, departing from iniquity, keeping His commandments, putting on the new man, and all the things you said you can do and ought to do, may well seem to you as coming from you and to your credit. And by that you are deceived into believing that lie. All those things are really what the new man is that God created in those who are saved. All those things therefore should manifest in one who claims to be a new man. They are not as though, by them, you make yourself a new man and yourself have overcome by so, in this life. Oh God, have mercy!
 
Quote from: GB
Quote from: Michael
Not because he can of himself become a new man, but that because God had created him anew in righteousness and true holiness ~ he is born again. He is God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that he should walk in them.

Jesus doesn't "deny Himself for us". Jesus doesn't "continue in His Goodness" for us. Jesus doesn't "put on the New Man" for us. Jesus doesn't "Depart from iniquity" for us. He raises us up a "New Man", who can made new choices, and who can "serve righteousness" instead of serve sin. Jesus doesn't "serve Righteousness for us" He doesn't "Walk in the good works foreordained by God that we should walk in them"  for us.

Matt. 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:

Jesus doesn't "Do them" for us.

Yes, "many" who come in Christ's Name preach just that. That we are raised from the dead and are not obligated to do anything. Jesus does it all for us. But this is one of the many religions Jesus and His Prophets and Disciples warned to stay away from.

Of course it is not Jesus who will repent, but the man. It isn't Jesus who will repent unto God and faith towards the Christ. It isn't Jesus who will do all that, but the man. That's just an obvious fact. But consider this confession of a new man, the apostle Paul, "I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me". This tells a lot about the new man. So that, all such instructions to not sin, are but reminders of who we are, that is a new man, a new creation in Christ, and not the means to be a new man nor to be in Christ.

You said "He raises us up a "New Man", who can made new choices, and who can "serve righteousness" instead of serve sin." This statement of yours implies that you are saying that the old man cannot make new choices, cannot serve righteousness. Do you believe that? An explanation from you is in order here.   
 
Quote from: GB
Quote from: Michael
Quote from: GB
If I am dead, which is what it means to be "Under the Law", then I am free from sin. The dead can not praise God. But if I am alive by God's Grace, then I am not my own. I am purchased with HIS Blood. My old self crucified with Him. Now I am a "servant" of the Christ of the Bible, running the race that is set before me, striving against sin, and striving to enter the Narrow Path. I am bound to the one whom I serve, as it is written.

You said "If I am dead, which is what it means to be "Under the Law", then I am free from sin." So if you are alive, what that means to you is that you are "NOT under the Law". Right? And so also, by what you say there, if you are "NOT under the law" then you are NOT free from sin. "NOT free" to me denotes slavery, being bound, confined as in the case of a prisoner. Won't you like to review and reconsider what you are saying there?
I am bound. I am a servant to whom I obey. You aren't. In your religion you are "Free from God's Laws". But according to the Scriptures, all of them, we are free from the wages of sin, not the definition of sin.

I am not ashamed of the Scriptures Michael. I'm fine with being a New Man, and this time a servant to righteousness, instead of a servant to transgression of God's Laws.

So, it's clear, you admit, profess, believe, and teach that you are not free from God's laws.

Romans 7:2 For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband. 3 So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man. 4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

I pray that you have understanding of the truth that Paul was pointing out here in the passage above. If you need for me to shed light on that, just say so.

Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

If you are in Christ, there is no more condemnation to you. Why? Simply because you are free from the law which imputes sin upon the offender and which condemns those who are under it or bound by it.

If you say you are not free from the Law, then you put yourself under its condemnation.
 
Galatians 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage. 2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing. 3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.

GB, what "liberty" wherewith Christ had made the Christians free?

Quote from: GB
Quote from: Michael
I suspect that there is something needed to be clarified in all of that. What do you mean by "dead" in your statement? Are you referring to being dead in sin as that spoken in Ephesians 2:1 or are you referring to being dead to sin as that spoken in Romans 6:2?
Eph. 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

These are people who are snared by the religions of the land. "Children of Disobedience". So when I see a person who is furthering a religion which rejects God's commandments, I know these folks are not alive, but dead. Because if they were alive, they would be "walking" in the "good works" God before ordained that they should walk in them, not preach to the world that there are "free" from them.

Romans 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?

2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

Same definition as Eph. 2.


So, there is the problem with your understanding, for the "dead in" trespasses and sins (Eph.2:1) is not the same with the "dead to" sin (Rom.6:2).

How can you not see that and tell the difference?

The dead in sin refers to the old man and the dead to sin refers to the new man. I suggest you consider studying those passages.

Quote from: GB
Quote from: Michael
Also, by implication, you are saying that one who serves the law (servant of the Law, so to speak) is bound by the law.
It depends on what Law you are talking about here. If you are talking about the Levitical Priesthood the Jews were pushing, with it's "works of the Law" for justification of sins, that God "ADDED" to His existing Law "Till the Seed should come", then no, I don't serve that "ADDED" Law. I serve the Christ who promised of a Covenant "after those days" when HE would atone for my sins with His own Blood. I am justified by Faith, not by the Levitical Priesthood sacrificial "works of the Law"  That Law was changed and Jesus is now my High Priest.

But if you are talking about the definition of sin, the two greatest Commandments and all that defines them (Law and Prophets) then I am absolutely bound by them. Aren't you?

 I mean "Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

I never referred to the Law to refer to only the Levitical priesthood GB. So, I am not referring to it nor I refer to the definition of sin. By law, I refer to the laws God gave to Israel through Moses, which were part of the old covenant. 

Quote from: GB
Quote from: Michael
I'd like to mention, and so be aware, at this point that the law we speak of here is the law of God which He gave to Israel when He took them out of Egypt. I get the impression by your answers so far, that you are not bound by the law because you said you are now a servant of Christ, so not a servant of the law.
How can I be a servant of the Christ, and not "DO" what He instructs? I can say I'm a servant of Christ. I can have a I heart Jesus bumper sticker on my car, a WWJD bracelet on my wrist. But if I "practice disobedience to God's Laws" He doesn't even know me. At least this is what the Christ of the Bible teaches.

There is a difference between being bound by the law and being a servant of Christ. There is also a difference between being a servant of the law and being a servant of Christ. The problem I think with your religion is that you make no distinction between the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, and God, even while scriptures does. For you have impressed on this board that the Christ is the one who spoke from heaven above, what is written in the Old Testament scriptures.

Now if you are servant to the law/commandments of God, that means you are bound by the law and are to obey all that the law says. Else what? Tell us.

If you are a servant of Christ, that means you are bound by Christ and are to obey all that he says. Else what? Tell us.

Quote from: GB
Quote from: Michael
So again you evade the issue question, that is, "If you are under the law, if you keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, would you say you are guilty of all?". Not one of the scriptures you quoted answers the question GB. The very simple question evidently is too hard for you to answer. It amazes me indeed. Let me help you have courage by sharing this scriptures:

James 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

There you go. The only thing left for you to do is believe and accept that. So when one speaks a lie, he is said to be guilty of breaking all, that is, he is also then guilty of breaking the 4th commandment, don't you agree? Some see that as unjust and unfair. How about you? Do you see it the same way? Now, you know fully well that any one who breaks even a single commandment of God is a sinner. Now, what scriptures say regarding this is:

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

I don't evade your question Michael. I answered it perfectly. Here, let me answer it again, this time so even a child can understand the reason for my hope.

I am hopeful of the promises of the Christ.

1 John 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not.

This is the goal of the New Man. We are children learning obedience to the Father. The first thing we are told, "don't disobey the Father".

But if we slip, if we don't see the escape from the temptation, if we drop the shield of the Armor of God, if we mess up like children do, have faith.

And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

So if I break one, I break them all. That is why we are to "Strive against sin". Transgressing God's Laws is very, very bad. We are told "don't do it". But if we do, if we fall down, get back up and run the race that is set before us.

3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.

This is how we know God writes His Commandments on our hearts, if we keep them.

4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

Paul warns of these religious men, who come in His Name, as does Jesus. If they aren't honoring and "laboring" to walk in the "good works" God before Ordained that we should walk in them, the are still dead in their sins.

5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.

It is in this obedience that we are humbled, that we learn, that we are strengthened. God's Love, His Commandments, are perfected in us when we walk in them, not when we reject them.

6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

We are on a journey, that is Paul was and I am.

Paul, a former Pharisee, explains my heart better than I can.

Phil. 3:8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,

His religion, his friends, his own religious traditions. I don't think you really know what humiliation Paul suffered when the Christ showed him that the religion he and his family and fathers had followed for centuries, with teaching for doctrines the Commandments of men, were not from God, but from the devil. He was so zealous, so convinced he was a good Child of Abraham. But he was deceived. That's a tough pill for any religious man to swallow.

9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

Paul used to take a turtle dove to the Levite Priest, according to the "ADDED" Law given by Moses on Mt. Sinai, to cleanse him of his sins and make him righteous. And his religious brethren after the flesh, were still relying on the "priesthood "Works of the Law" for cleansing their unrighteousness. But he learned that no man is justified by "works of the law", and that his brethren, after the flesh, were not obeying God, but their own religious traditions.


10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;

11 If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.

Paul also lived in hope, as I do.

12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.

Paul stumbled as well. He knew he wasn't yet perfected, but he continued to strive to this end.

13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,

14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.

15 Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.

So there is a detailed answer, using much the same scriptures you ignored, only this time I explained so even a child can understand.

I will address the rest  on another post

Not much difference with your previous answer. This time only in more words.

The simple question is "If you are under the law, if you keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, would you say you are guilty of all?"

With the long post you made, there is only this one statement that tells us your answer, that is, "So if I break one, I break them all."

So, it's clear, you believe that. And so, when you tell a lie, you are guilty of breaking all, that is, you are also consider yourself then to being guilty of breaking the 4th commandment, the Sabbath. That is just my point in asking the question. That is why, I find no real need to comment on the rest of your post. For I was not asking about other things such as the goal of the New Man nor about such as you've discussed there in your post.

Offline winsome

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Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
« Reply #290 on: Fri Jan 17, 2020 - 08:13:02 »


Fact 1. Scripture does not say God blessed every 7th day
Fact, God's Laws, Commandments and Statutes existed before Ex. 16. 

That is irrelevant to the point I made: 
Fact:  Scripture does not say God blessed every 7th day.
Fact 2. Scripture does not record God telling anyone to keep a 7th day sabbath until Ex 16:23-30
Fact, just because God didn't define His Laws in Genesis, doesn't mean they didn't exist.
But you have no evidence to show that God told anyone to keep a 7th day sabbath until Ex 16:23-30


Fact 3. Scripture does not record anyone keeping a 7th day sabbath until Ex 16:23-30
Fact, Scripture does not record anyone Loving God with all their heart before Exodus, Scripture does not define clean and unclean animals before Leviticus, and Scripture does not define adultery before Exodus, yet all these Laws existed and were known unto men, before Exodus. 
But you have no evidence to show that anyone keept a 7th day sabbath until Ex 16:23-30

Offline RB

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Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
« Reply #291 on: Fri Jan 17, 2020 - 08:21:11 »
Yes Red, in all 4 gospels those disciples and followers of the Christ kept HIS Sabbath Holy even after HIS death. Of course they did. It is the "Sabbath of the Lord".
Yes to what? Not to the degree that you desire others to believe. They came together into one place on the first day of the week. Do you desire proof? Of course, you do not want it, for you are pushing the Jewish Sabbath as they of the Jewish nation kept it per many examples in the gospels, and as they were commanded to do so. But the apostles and followers of Jesus Christ assembled on the first day of the week in commemoration of Jesus' Resurrection . Proof:
Quote from: The HOLY GHOST
John 20:19-23~"Then the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you. And when he had so said, he shewed unto them his hands and his side. Then were the disciples glad, when they saw the Lord. Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you. And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost: Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained."
Here we have only that they assembled~and Christ appeared to them. But there is more that will help us to see the importance of the first day of the week~
Quote from: The HOLY GHOST
John 20:26~"And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you."
Jesus waited eight days more before to appeared again to them, since that was the space of time that they ALL came together again INTO ONE PLACE~which would have been the next FIRST DAY OF THE WEEK, NOT on the Jewish Sabbath, but on what came to be called by the holy apostles as the Lord's day! You and your Jewish Sabbath day that you desire to call the Lord's Sabbath day for NT believers is a lie. But, what does biblical proof mean to people like you? not very much.

I have much more to say, but I have a meeting to attend....later.

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Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
« Reply #292 on: Fri Jan 17, 2020 - 08:22:23 »
 author=Michael2012 link=topic=74624.msg1055154753#msg1055154753 date=1579252730]
Quote
You are confused.

Paul is speaking of two things in Col. 2.

One is a warning about religious men and their Philosophy and traditions of men we are to beware of.

The other is the Good, Just and Spiritual Commandments of God which include His Holy Feasts and Sabbaths and creation laws such as clean and unclean animals.

 On the religious doctrines and traditions of men, Paul is rebuking them. But in the observances of God's Commandments, he is telling them to "Let no man judge them" in the voluntary humility in submitting to these ways of the Christ.

Traditions of men are shadows of nothing and are evil, according to God, especially if following them leads to transgression of God Commandments (Sin), the Christ's Feasts are shadows of His Salvation plan which begins with Passover.

The Jews, who were teaching for doctrines the commandments of men, placed restrictions and burdens on the people, through their own laws, that were against them, contrary to them.

21 (Touch not; taste not; handle not;

Jesus addressed some of these in the Scriptures. Like making it a sin against God to eat a piece of bread without first having washed the hands a certain way, or they made it a sin to take a walk in fellowship on His Holy Sabbath and pick an apple or ear of corn to eat.

These are traditions of men. While Passover and Feast of Unleavened bread, and HIS Sabbaths and Feasts are of the God of the Bible.


I know that in Col.2, Paul gives warning, saying "Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ."

But our issue here is what Paul said in verse 16-17. Clearly you agreed that the things mentioned in verse 16, including the Sabbath days, foreshadows Christ and are not bad or evil, but are good. They aren't the "spoiled traditions and commandments of men", but are the commandments, statutes, ordinances, with regards dietary (meat and drink) observances, festival (holyday and new moons) observances, and sabbath day observances, written in the Law, in the book of the law.

SO MY POINT REMAINS, THAT THE SABBATHS SPOKEN OF IN VERSE 16 REFER TO THOSE WHICH WERE WRITTEN IN THE BOOK OF THE LAW AND ARE GOD GIVEN COMMANDMENTS THROUGH MOSES AND ARE NOT COMMANDMENTS OF MEN. 

Let me proceed to show you. Now, of this, Paul said "Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:" In other words, Paul tells them to not allow no one to criticize their action on the ground that it is not in harmony with the precepts of the Law concerning those things mentioned. For at best these things were but the shadow, the substance of which is the Christ. One must realize that these things mentioned in verse 16 are but shadows, while the very substance these things foreshadows, that is, Christ, had already come, whom the Christian already have with them.

You are missing some key points here. You are assuming the Catholic doctrine that God's Laws didn't exist until He gave them to Moses, is true. The reality is God's Laws have always existed, except for the Law "ADDED" because of transgression "till the Seed should come", that is, the Levitical Priesthood.

You were doing pretty good until this part, "Had already come". The Scriptures teach "are shadows of things to come".

Religious man has created their own way, their own high days, their own image of God created in the likeness of some long haired men's hair shampoo model. Paul is telling the truly repentant not to let these men, through Philosophy, spoil them.

A good example of this Philosophy would be like a person saying "I keep every day Holy", every day is a Sabbath." This sounds good, just as the fruit looked good to Eve. But it projects a false message. Did God tell us to only serve Him 1 day a week? But this man is more Holy than God by declaring HIS Commandment is not worthy of his respect, while the doctrines and commandments of men are.

Is God so dense, so unsophisticated, so off base that He didn't know what He was doing when He created these "Shadows", so religious men must correct Him as did also the Pharisees to His Sabbath?

I would ask the question, "why not just submit to the Christ, and walk as He did"?



Quote
By that, the Christian really are under no judgment with respect to food, of an holyday, of the new moons, or of the sabbath days. And why would they be judged when Christ, the very substance of what those things foreshadows, is with them?

So then the religious traditions of man, not God, are those Paul said to beware of. And we know God's Commandments which include Sabbaths and Laws are not traditions of men, but of the Christ.

So it is a religious tradition of man to reject God's Sabbaths and Laws. So those who Love Him and follow Him, who have denied themselves and repented from following the traditions of religious men, these are true "Christians" Yes?

You are twisting this verse as well Michael. It doesn't say men are under no judgment in respect of an Holy Day. It says "Let no MAN Judge you in respect of the Laws and Commandments of God. "Let no man beguile you" of your reward in your voluntary humility".


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These things are fulfilled in Christ and so in those in whom Christ dwells. As Paul said in verse 10, that the Christian is complete in Christ. That even the Gentile Christian, who is not of the circumcision, Paul said, are circumcised in Christ.

Not all these things have been fulfilled in Christ. The eternal Sabbath rest for God's people, the 2nd coming, the great throne judgment, these are all "Shadows of things (still) to come". This is why the Christ commanded HIS People, even the Stranger, to keep from polluting them.

Quote
Sad to say, there are those who actually believe that some person, religious system, or discipline can add something to their spiritual experience. But they already have everything they ever will need in the person and work of Jesus Christ.

Yes, if they trust His instructions enough to follow them. If they are a "doer" of HIS Word, and not a hearer only. That is why Paul encouraged the truly repentant not to let religious men judge them, or beguile them of their devotion to Him. They were surrounded by religious men who transgressed God's Commandments by their own religious traditions. He warned not to be influenced by their religious traditions "taste not, touch not". Which all perish as do all the religious traditions of men. But the Word's of the God of the Bible, last forever.

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IF YOU UNDERSTAND WHAT IT MEANS TO BE COMPLETE IN CHRIST AND BELIEVES THAT THE CHRISTIAN IS COMPLETE IN CHRIST, YOU WILL UNDERSTAND THAT IN CHRIST, THE CHRISTIAN FULFILLED AND FULFILLS THE LAW.

Breaking His Law, rejecting HIS Law, denying His Law, re-writing His Law, is not fulfilling His Law. The true Christian doesn't do any of these things. But we are warned of "MANY" who come in Christ's Name that do, through Philosophy. Don't forget what Jesus Himself said;

 Matt. 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. (Lawlessness)

Quote
Also, you will realize that the things spoken in verse 16, including the sabbath days, were but shadows pointing to Christ that leads one to Christ and so are of no concern to the Christian now, now that he already is in Christ and is complete in Him. Such things may well be of service or concern for the onlooker (unbeliever, unconverted), but no longer for the Christian.


That is the Catholic religion, religious traditions of men. The Priesthood "works of the Laws" of atonement was to lead men to Christ, "Till the Seed should come". Like it did for Zechariahs, and Simeon. Even Abraham knew about the Passover Lamb.

Also, what you just said is basically the same argument the Serpent made to Eve. Both the argument of the serpent and yours would result in men rejecting God's Commandments, through the Philosophy of religious voices.

The Bible teaches a true Christian no such thing. If fact, it teaches the opposite.

Rom. 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

Paul warned the truly repentant in Col. 2 of this very same thing, not to be tricked by religious men into turning again to the religious doctrines and traditions of men they denied when they repented.

Yet, this is exactly what you are saying. That Honoring God through Honoring the Sabbaths of God led you to Christ, now you don't have to Honor Him in it any more in it.

I know this is what is taught in the religions of the land, but it is a "vain deceit".


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20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,

Now, concerning the following:

21 (Touch not; taste not; handle not;

22 Which all are to perish with the using;) after the commandments and doctrines of men?

23 Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body: not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh.

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In these verses, Paul expanded on the error he already alluded to in verse 8, namely: asceticism. The ascetic practices ("rudiments of the world") he referred to seem to have been connected to, or were extensions of, Mosaic Law, concerning the things he mentioned in verse 16.

Hogwash. these men were dead to the rudiments of the world, not God's Commandments. God gave Laws to Abraham, and to Moses. They are God's Laws, not "rudiments of the world". You are making the same mistake the Pharisees did.

Rom. 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

You are forgetting that the Pharisees were teaching for doctrines the Commandments of Men, not God. They had their own Sabbaths, their own High Days and images of God in the likeness of men, just as the religions of the land have today.

Paul isn't talking about God's Commandments here, he is speaking to the traditions of men "touch no, taste not" burdens that religious men had placed on the people. Like Lent.


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Now while a Christian, especially the Jew, is dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, it is still possible for him to put oneself under these things, and again live like unbelievers in the world.

People who deny themselves and strive to walk "even as He walked" are not unbelievers. In your religion, yes, in the Pharisees religion, yes. But not according to the Gospel.

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And it seems that at the time of Paul, there were such Jewish Christians who not only live like so, but even go to teach others, especially the Gentile Christians, to do the same. So, Paul told them that such was an error and shall not be like so. So he argues in verses 20-23.


Again, your preaching that Paul taught folks to reject God's Laws is a false teaching. Paul taught folks the same as Jesus and the same as the Prophets. "(For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified."

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These false teachers then who seem to force the Colossians to live by the world system, by placing various ascetic requirements on them. The things spoken of in verse 21 refer to such requirements, which in verse 22, Paul points out the inadequacy of these ordinances/laws saying of such "all are to perish with the using; after the commandments and doctrines of men."

It is sad that you have succumbed to the "other religious voices" out there. That you equate God's Commandments with pagan rituals and rudiments of the world. That you imply that Jesus spent His life walking a Path that Paul teaches against.

But the truth is, before repentance, we all are deceived in believing the "other voice", just as Eve was.

But you have His Word's right in your home now. There will be no excuse when He comes back.

Matt. 13:41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;

42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.



 

Offline winsome

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Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
« Reply #293 on: Fri Jan 17, 2020 - 08:24:04 »
Paul himself declares he is no longer under the Law.
To the Jews I became as a Jew, in order to win Jews; to those under the law I became as one under the law--though not being myself under the law--that I might win those under the law. To those outside the law [Gentiles] I became as one outside the law--not being without law toward God but under the law of Christ--that I might win those outside the law. (1Cor 9:20-21)

He also makes here a clear distinction between those under the Law (the Jews) and those not under the Law (the Gentiles)

Galatians 3:
Before faith came, we [Jews] were held in custody under law, confined for the faith that was to be revealed. Consequently, the law was our disciplinarian for Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a disciplinarian. (Gal 3:23-25).
We (Jews) are not under the Law

Paul describes the Jews and Gentiles as separated but then he says:
But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near in the blood of Christ. For he is our peace, who has made us both one, and has broken down the dividing wall of hostility, by abolishing in his flesh the law of commandments and ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, (Eph 2:13-15)
The Law has been abolished.

Col 2 says much the same:
And you, who were dead in trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses, having cancelled the bond which stood against us with its legal demands; this he set aside, nailing it to the cross. (Col 2:14)


The Book of Hebrews makes this replacement of the Old Covenant by the New very clear.
On the one hand, a former commandment is annulled because of its weakness and uselessness, for the law brought nothing to perfection; on the other hand, a better hope is introduced, through which we draw near to God. (Heb 7:18-19)

When there is a change of priesthood, there is necessarily a change of law as well. (Heb 7:12)

For if that first covenant had been faultless, no place would have been sought for a second one. But he finds fault with them and says: “Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will conclude a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah. (Heb 8:7-8)
 
When he speaks of a “new” covenant, he declares the first one obsolete. And what has become obsolete and has grown old is close to disappearing (Heb 8:13)

He takes away the first to establish the second
(Heb 10:9)

Online GB

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Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
« Reply #294 on: Fri Jan 17, 2020 - 08:28:40 »
 author=RB link=topic=74624.msg1055154759#msg1055154759 date=1579257722]
Quote
The only way anyone can honor God is to honor his Son.

The Son was the God that created His Sabbath and told me to keep it Holy, before becoming a man.






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Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
« Reply #295 on: Fri Jan 17, 2020 - 08:32:13 »
A good question to which I doubt you get a straight answer.

GB says "I'm living under the new Covenant. I don't take turtle doves to some Levite for the atonement of my sins. I don't have to find some Levite Priest to hear the Word of God."
But he believes he has to keep the Old Law sabbath!

It's because I believe in the New Covenant the Christ created, I don't believe in the New Covenant the Catholic religion created.






Offline winsome

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Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
« Reply #296 on: Fri Jan 17, 2020 - 08:36:53 »
It's because I believe in the New Covenant the Christ created, I don't believe in the New Covenant the Catholic religion created.
You appear to believe in what you create in your own mind.

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Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
« Reply #297 on: Fri Jan 17, 2020 - 08:46:09 »
To all who are concerned about the law on the sabbath, I have this question to ask.

Do righteousness come by the law, that you are so into the matter of the law on the Sabbath?

Before the "SEED" came, there was a Law added to God's Commandments called the "Levitical Priesthood". In it, before a man could become righteous, his sins must first be atoned for. God Gave one of the tribes of Israel called Levi, an exclusive Priesthood which addressed the matter of "atonement".

In it, if a man transgressed a Commandment of God, that man was to take a turtle dove or other animal to the Levite, who would then perform sacrificial "works" according to this Priesthood Law, for the atonement of this man's sins. According to the Law, there was no other way.

Paul, before his conversion, still followed these "works of the Law" for atonement of sins because the Mainstream religion of that time, which he was zealous for, didn't believe Jesus was the "Seed".

They didn't believe Jer. 31 was talking about Jesus, so they were still trying to be justified by the "LAW of Works" as Paul calls it.

satan, as we are warned of, has disguised itself as "ministers of righteousness" and through religious voices convinced people that the "works of the law" Paul speaks of are the 2 greatest commandments of God and all that hang on them.

But if a person follows the instructions of the Messiah Himself, he can overcome this deception.

 "Man shall live by Every Word that Proceeds from the mouth of God".



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Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
« Reply #298 on: Fri Jan 17, 2020 - 08:58:25 »
What became obsolete was the Levitical Priesthood ….

What became obsolete was the Old (Mosaic) Covenant. That is what scripture actually says. It doesn't say that all that became obsolete was the Levitical Priesthood. What became obsolete was the whole Covenant with not just the levitical priesthood but it's Law.

Paul warns about going back to that Covenant in his letter to the Galatians.
For all who rely on works of the law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed be every one who does not abide by all things written in the book of the law, and do them.” Gal 3:10
and
You are separated from Christ, you who are trying to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace. (Gal 5:4)

If you go back to the (Old Covenant) Law. You are no longer "in Christ"; you are no longer in the New Covenant.

As I have said and you will not even attempt to discuss. The New Covenant you and the Pope preach, is not the same New Covenant that the Christ promised and His Disciples followed.

The Bible says the Priesthood Changed, not the definition of sin. Paul was fighting a religion which still performed the "old" Priesthood "works of the Law" for atonement of sins. These Pharisees were trying to get the new converts to come to them for justification as the Priesthood Law dictated. They didn't believe the "SEED" had come.

For them, righteousness came by the atonement "law of works" as Paul called it. You have been duped by the Catholic religion, or one of here many, many daughters, into believing the New Covenant destroyed God's Commandments, when what it really did was create a New Priesthood, a Priesthood where death was not required any longer for the atonement of sins. The administration of death became obsolete, replaced with a new and better ministry. One where the Christ Himself writs His Laws on the hearts of the truly repentant. Where the Christ Himself atones for our sins.

It's in your own Bible.



Online GB

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Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
« Reply #299 on: Fri Jan 17, 2020 - 09:00:03 »
You appear to believe in what you create in your own mind.

Actually it's written in your own Bible. Read it for yourself.

Offline Michael2012

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Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
« Reply #300 on: Fri Jan 17, 2020 - 09:07:10 »
Quote from: Michael
I hope that at this point you now see the wisdom of God in His salvation and His grace in Christ. For scriptures says that there is no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus.

And scriptures also say that not everyone who says they are in Christ Jesus, are in Christ Jesus.

That is for God to judge, not you nor anyone for that matter. The point being is that, to them which are in Christ, there is no condemnation.

Are you in Christ? If so, thank God for His grace and blessing, that there is now no condemnation to you. And if you understand what that means, you understand that you have passed from death into life. So be not afraid but rejoice in the Lord. Nor should you be consumed by anything that seems to imply that there is still a possibility of condemnation or passing from life to death, such as this concerning the Sabbath and Sunday worship. 

Quote from: GB
Quote from: Michael
Only in Christ are we not only saved, but even, securely saved.
"IF" you do as He says, otherwise you are not "securely saved".

You have reason to be afraid and worried GB, but not I. For in your belief, your salvation rest in your obedience, which scriptures have evidently shown that only Jesus, among all men that have ever lived and all those living in those times, have not failed in obedience to God. Don't tell me that ever since you believed in Christ, that you haven't failed. I am quite sure you have failed so many times more than have not, from that day you believed.

But concerning the Christian, scriptures said, and that without the "IF", that he shall not come into condemnation, and is passed from death unto life. And again, that is not to say that the Christian can just deliberately sin and free to sin. No!

Quote from: GB
Quote from: Michael
For even the believer, the Christians, who are still in their sinful flesh (the body of this death, as Paul speaks of it), do still fall into sin.

Falling in disobedience to God's Laws, and rejecting God's Laws are two completely different things.

Yes they are different in a sense. But both are sin, nonetheless.

Quote from: GB
Quote from: Michael
But this problem had been taken cared of by Jesus Christ Himself, so that scriptures says there is no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus. That is not to suggest that we are free to deliberately sin. Of course not. Paul speaks a lot about this in Romans 6.

What is "deliberate" sin? Is that an action where a person looks at a Commandment of God, but then rejects it outright?

"Deliberate" means intentional, voluntary, willful. To deliberately sin means to intentionally, voluntarily, and willfully sin. This denotes that one is convinced in His heart that what he is about to do is sin, and intentionally, voluntarily, and willfully do it.

As to your second question, in general, I'd say it is sin to reject God's commandment. If you are referring to a Christian, if he is convinced in his heart and mind that a commandment of God pertains to him to obey, and then intentionally, voluntarily, and willfully breaks it, then he deliberately sin. Otherwise, it would not be a deliberate sin, though still is sin. 

Quote from: GB
Quote from: Michael
Quote from: GB
If I was dead because I rejected His Laws, and by His Grace, He paid the penalty for my transgressions, why would I transgress God's Laws again and place Jesus to an open shame? I am not free from His instruction, I am freed from the death transgression of His Laws caused me.

Rom. 6:12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.

13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.

14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid. (That means NO! Michael)

16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

In other words, your answer is NO, that you are not free from the law.

The answer to your question was just given by Paul. He is the one who is preaching when we become alive, we have the same choice we had before. Who are we to yield our self to obey? The first time we chose "another voice. shall we make the same choice after Jesus paid the price for our first mistake? God forbid.

It isn't me who is telling you we are not free from God's Definition of Sin, His definition of Good, and His definition of righteousness. It is Paul. And I believe him even if you don't.

If I am dead, I am free from His law. But if I'm alive by HIS Grace, I am not free from His Law. Well, in the religions of the land I am free from His law. But Paul, when he was made alive, "served the Law of God in his mind".

GB, please don't act as if what you say is what in fact what Paul says.

Your statement always start with "If I am" which tells me that you aren't even sure of who you are. That tells me further that you don't know what you are talking about. Tell us first then and plainly, are you dead and free from the law, or are you alive and am not free (that is, bounded by) from the law?

Quote from: GB
Quote from: GB
If you are not free from the law, then you know what that means, don't you? But concerning the Christian, according to Paul, he had been freed from the law.
No, that is a deception of the ancient religious traditions of the land. Paul never teaches that were are free from God's Commandments. We are free from death, free from sin. But we are not free from God's Instructions. Paul teaches just the opposite.

16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

If I am not dead, it is because Jesus shed His Blood for me. But He didn't shed His Blood so I could reject His Laws again. At least according to the Christ of the Bible.

No, that isn't a deception of the ancient religious traditions of the land GB. It is the following scriptures. You obviously just don't see it, if not, refuse to see it.

Romans 7:2 For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband. 3 So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man. 4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

I pray that you have understanding of the truth that Paul was pointing out here in the passage above. If you need for me to shed light on that, just say so.

Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

If you are in Christ, there is no more condemnation to you. Why? Simply because you are free from the law which imputes sin upon the offender and which condemns unto death to those who are under it or bound by it.

If you say you are not free from the Law, then you put yourself under its condemnation.
 
Galatians 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage. 2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing. 3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.

GB, what "liberty" wherewith Christ had made the Christians free?

Quote from: GB
Quote from: Michael
Again you really did not answer the question, but evaded it. It's a bad habit and cheap tactic of yours, I know.

GB, him who is not under the law, is not bound by the law. Now, those who are in Christ had been freed from the law and so not bound by it. They are no longer under the law, but are now under grace. Paul repeatedly said that in Romans 6. And again, that is not to suggest that we can deliberately sin. God forbid!
   

You are furthering ancient religious traditions of men, not what Paul teaches in Romans 6.

Rom. 6:18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

He doesn't say you free from God's Commandments, you made that part up.

Rom. 6:22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.

He doesn't say free from God's Instructions, Laws, Commandments at all. You are making that part up.

No GB, I am not furthering any ancient traditions of men. In fact I don't even study any of that. I study only scriptures.

And what I say there in my post that Paul repeatedly said in Romans 6, is not about having been freed from the law, but the truth that the Christians are no longer under the law, but are now under grace. So, did I made up what you say I did.

Quote from: GB
Quote from: Michael
Now, those who are in Christ had been freed from the law and so not bound by it.
This is a deception Michael. And ancient religious doctrine of the religions of the land. Paul does not even imply this teaching in Rom. 6, or anywhere else.

It's not a deception GB, nor is it an ancient religious doctrine of the religions of the land. Rather it is the truth written in scriptures.

Refer to the segment above where I've given the reference scriptures that speak of this truth.

Offline winsome

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Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
« Reply #301 on: Fri Jan 17, 2020 - 09:18:03 »
As I have said and you will not even attempt to discuss. The New Covenant you and the Pope preach, is not the same New Covenant that the Christ promised and His Disciples followed.
Totally wrong and your claiming it doesn't make it true.
The Bible says the Priesthood Changed, not the definition of sin. Paul was fighting a religion which still performed the "old" Priesthood "works of the Law" for atonement of sins. These Pharisees were trying to get the new converts to come to them for justification as the Priesthood Law dictated. They didn't believe the "SEED" had come.

For them, righteousness came by the atonement "law of works" as Paul called it. You have been duped by the Catholic religion, or one of here many, many daughters, into believing the New Covenant destroyed God's Commandments, when what it really did was create a New Priesthood, a Priesthood where death was not required any longer for the atonement of sins. The administration of death became obsolete, replaced with a new and better ministry. One where the Christ Himself writs His Laws on the hearts of the truly repentant. Where the Christ Himself atones for our sins.

It's in your own Bible.
When the priesthood changed there was a change in the law.Perhaps it's not in your Bible.
When there is a change of priesthood, there is necessarily a change of law as well. (Heb 7:12).

I've said nothing about a change in the definition of sin.
That's another of your strawmen arguments.

"works of the law" are not just sacrificing turtle doves. That is your invention.For Paul "works of the law" are keeping the Old Covenant commands and statutes.
For all who rely on works of the law are under a curse; for it is written, "Cursed be every one who does not abide by all things written in the book of the law, and do them." Gal 3:10
Did you read that - all things written in the book of the law?
Q: What was written in the book of the law?
A: God's command and statutes.

"...if you obey the voice of the Lord your God, to keep his commandments and his statutes which are written in this book of the law.." (Dt 30:10)

 
 



Offline winsome

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Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
« Reply #302 on: Fri Jan 17, 2020 - 09:21:14 »
Actually it's written in your own Bible. Read it for yourself.
Your inventions aren't written in any Bible - except perhaps the one in your head.

Offline Michael2012

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Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
« Reply #303 on: Fri Jan 17, 2020 - 12:53:53 »
Quote from: Michael
I know that in Col.2, Paul gives warning, saying "Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ."

But our issue here is what Paul said in verse 16-17. Clearly you agreed that the things mentioned in verse 16, including the Sabbath days, foreshadows Christ and are not bad or evil, but are good. They aren't the "spoiled traditions and commandments of men", but are the commandments, statutes, ordinances, with regards dietary (meat and drink) observances, festival (holyday and new moons) observances, and sabbath day observances, written in the Law, in the book of the law.

SO MY POINT REMAINS, THAT THE SABBATHS SPOKEN OF IN VERSE 16 REFER TO THOSE WHICH WERE WRITTEN IN THE BOOK OF THE LAW AND ARE GOD GIVEN COMMANDMENTS THROUGH MOSES AND ARE NOT COMMANDMENTS OF MEN.

Let me proceed to show you. Now, of this, Paul said "Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:" In other words, Paul tells them to not allow no one to criticize their action on the ground that it is not in harmony with the precepts of the Law concerning those things mentioned. For at best these things were but the shadow, the substance of which is the Christ. One must realize that these things mentioned in verse 16 are but shadows, while the very substance these things foreshadows, that is, Christ, had already come, whom the Christian already have with them.

You are missing some key points here. You are assuming the Catholic doctrine that God's Laws didn't exist until He gave them to Moses, is true. The reality is God's Laws have always existed, except for the Law "ADDED" because of transgression "till the Seed should come", that is, the Levitical Priesthood.

You were doing pretty good until this part, "Had already come". The Scriptures teach "are shadows of things to come".

Religious man has created their own way, their own high days, their own image of God created in the likeness of some long haired men's hair shampoo model. Paul is telling the truly repentant not to let these men, through Philosophy, spoil them.

A good example of this Philosophy would be like a person saying "I keep every day Holy", every day is a Sabbath." This sounds good, just as the fruit looked good to Eve. But it projects a false message. Did God tell us to only serve Him 1 day a week? But this man is more Holy than God by declaring HIS Commandment is not worthy of his respect, while the doctrines and commandments of men are.

Is God so dense, so unsophisticated, so off base that He didn't know what He was doing when He created these "Shadows", so religious men must correct Him as did also the Pharisees to His Sabbath?

I would ask the question, "why not just submit to the Christ, and walk as He did"?

I am not assuming any Catholic doctrine GB. Can't you get rid of this bad habit GB and just stick to what I said and what the issue is? This will avoid deviation from the topic issue and avoid useless talk that are clearly out of issue. 

Let me address the part that somehow touches the issue, and I quote "You were doing pretty good until this part, "Had already come". The Scriptures teach "are shadows of things to come"."

I'm quite sure you are referring to my statement that says "One must realize that these things mentioned in verse 16 are but shadows, while the very substance these things foreshadows, that is, Christ, had already come, whom the Christian already have with them." Does not verse 17 say concerning those mentioned in verse 16, " Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ."? Clearly, such as are that foreshadows Christ. If you don't believe that, tell us, in your take of this verse, what are "to come" do those mentioned in verse 16 foreshadows?

Now this you have not refuted: SO MY POINT REMAINS, THAT THE SABBATHS SPOKEN OF IN VERSE 16 REFER TO THOSE WHICH WERE WRITTEN IN THE BOOK OF THE LAW AND ARE GOD GIVEN COMMANDMENTS THROUGH MOSES AND ARE NOT COMMANDMENTS OF MEN. Does that mean you agree?

Quote from: GB
Quote from: Michael
By that, the Christian really are under no judgment with respect to food, of an holyday, of the new moons, or of the sabbath days. And why would they be judged when Christ, the very substance of what those things foreshadows, is with them?

So then the religious traditions of man, not God, are those Paul said to beware of. And we know God's Commandments which include Sabbaths and Laws are not traditions of men, but of the Christ.

It is the legalistic false teachers, whose legalism seems to have involved asceticism, those Paul describes as those who spoil Christians through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, are those which Paul said to beware of.

Quote from: GB
So it is a religious tradition of man to reject God's Sabbaths and Laws. So those who Love Him and follow Him, who have denied themselves and repented from following the traditions of religious men, these are true "Christians" Yes?

I never said nor implied that it is a religious tradition of man to reject God's Sabbaths and Laws.

I said nor implied nothing with regards your second statement.

Quote from: GB
You are twisting this verse as well Michael. It doesn't say men are under no judgment in respect of an Holy Day. It says "Let no MAN Judge you in respect of the Laws and Commandments of God. "Let no man beguile you" of your reward in your voluntary humility".

That right, the verse says "Let no MAN Judge you in respect of the Laws and Commandments of God." I never said it says differently. What I said is what it obviously implies.

Quote from: GB
Quote from: Michael
These things are fulfilled in Christ and so in those in whom Christ dwells. As Paul said in verse 10, that the Christian is complete in Christ. That even the Gentile Christian, who is not of the circumcision, Paul said, are circumcised in Christ.

Not all these things have been fulfilled in Christ. The eternal Sabbath rest for God's people, the 2nd coming, the great throne judgment, these are all "Shadows of things (still) to come". This is why the Christ commanded HIS People, even the Stranger, to keep from polluting them.

If you don't believe that these things have been fulfilled in Christ, so be it with you.

Regarding your second statement, where can we read in scriptures that the eternal Sabbath rest for God's people, the 2nd coming, the great throne judgment, are all "Shadows of things (still) to come"?
 
Quote from: GB
Quote from: Michael
Sad to say, there are those who actually believe that some person, religious system, or discipline can add something to their spiritual experience. But they already have everything they ever will need in the person and work of Jesus Christ.

Yes, if they trust His instructions enough to follow them. If they are a "doer" of HIS Word, and not a hearer only. That is why Paul encouraged the truly repentant not to let religious men judge them, or beguile them of their devotion to Him. They were surrounded by religious men who transgressed God's Commandments by their own religious traditions. He warned not to be influenced by their religious traditions "taste not, touch not". Which all perish as do all the religious traditions of men. But the Word's of the God of the Bible, last forever.

No GB. Being complete in Christ means to be sufficient in Christ, lacking nothing.  Paul speaks of this in Col. 2:9-10 ~ "9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. 10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:" Read on to verses 11-15 as to who did what and what work was done. Hint, it is Christ who worked it all that the Christians were said to be complete in Him.   

Quote from: GB
Quote from: Michael
IF YOU UNDERSTAND WHAT IT MEANS TO BE COMPLETE IN CHRIST AND BELIEVES THAT THE CHRISTIAN IS COMPLETE IN CHRIST, YOU WILL UNDERSTAND THAT IN CHRIST, THE CHRISTIAN FULFILLED AND FULFILLS THE LAW.

Breaking His Law, rejecting HIS Law, denying His Law, re-writing His Law, is not fulfilling His Law. The true Christian doesn't do any of these things. But we are warned of "MANY" who come in Christ's Name that do, through Philosophy. Don't forget what Jesus Himself said;

 Matt. 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. (Lawlessness)

IF YOU UNDERSTAND WHAT IT MEANS TO BE COMPLETE IN CHRIST AND BELIEVES THAT THE CHRISTIAN IS COMPLETE IN CHRIST, YOU WILL UNDERSTAND THAT IN CHRIST, THE CHRISTIAN FULFILLED AND FULFILLS THE LAW.
 
Apparently, you don't understand.

The passage you quoted speaks of false prophets and does not speak of true Christians. You are misapplying the passage GB. For no true Christian wills to break His Law, nor rejects HIS Law, nor deny His Law, nor re-write His Law.

Quote from: GB
Quote from: Michael
Also, you will realize that the things spoken in verse 16, including the sabbath days, were but shadows pointing to Christ that leads one to Christ and so are of no concern to the Christian now, now that he already is in Christ and is complete in Him. Such things may well be of service or concern for the onlooker (unbeliever, unconverted), but no longer for the Christian.

That is the Catholic religion, religious traditions of men. The Priesthood "works of the Laws" of atonement was to lead men to Christ, "Till the Seed should come". Like it did for Zechariahs, and Simeon. Even Abraham knew about the Passover Lamb.

Also, what you just said is basically the same argument the Serpent made to Eve. Both the argument of the serpent and yours would result in men rejecting God's Commandments, through the Philosophy of religious voices.

What I said is in no way the same argument the serpent made to Eve. One just have to read Genesis and see for himself what the argument of the serpent made to Eve. My argument is not to have men reject God's commandments. Rather, it is to help the Christians to realize that they are complete in Christ and what that means.

Quote from: GB
The Bible teaches a true Christian no such thing. If fact, it teaches the opposite.

Rom. 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

Apparently you deny what the Bible teaches in Col. 2:16-17, that the laws on food, laws with respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days, are a shadow of things to come, the body of which is of Christ. Well...

Apparently too, you not only deny what the Bible teaches in Col. 2:10, that the Christians are complete in Christ, but also do not understand what that means. Well...

Apparently too, you don't understand the passage you quoted and so misapply it.

Quote from: GB
Paul warned the truly repentant in Col. 2 of this very same thing, not to be tricked by religious men into turning again to the religious doctrines and traditions of men they denied when they repented.

What Paul warns about in Col. 2 is not the same thing as that he is talking about in Romans 11. You are grossly mistaken GB. Do you want me to tell you the difference?

Quote from: GB
Yet, this is exactly what you are saying. That Honoring God through Honoring the Sabbaths of God led you to Christ, now you don't have to Honor Him in it any more in it.

I know this is what is taught in the religions of the land, but it is a "vain deceit".

I am not at all saying what you say I am saying there GB. That is a fabricated lie of yours, if not a product of your reading and comprehension problem.

Quote from: GB
Quote from: Michael
20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,

21 (Touch not; taste not; handle not;

22 Which all are to perish with the using;) after the commandments and doctrines of men?

23 Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body: not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh.


In these verses, Paul expanded on the error he already alluded to in verse 8, namely: asceticism. The ascetic practices ("rudiments of the world") he referred to seem to have been connected to, or were extensions of, Mosaic Law, concerning the things he mentioned in verse 16.

Hogwash. these men were dead to the rudiments of the world, not God's Commandments. God gave Laws to Abraham, and to Moses. They are God's Laws, not "rudiments of the world". You are making the same mistake the Pharisees did.

Who do you refer to in saying "these men"?

Also, please read again what I said. I wonder why you said what you said there.

Quote from: GB
Rom. 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

You are forgetting that the Pharisees were teaching for doctrines the Commandments of Men, not God. They had their own Sabbaths, their own High Days and images of God in the likeness of men, just as the religions of the land have today.

I am not forgetting that the Pharisees were teaching for doctrines the Commandments of Men, GB. Where did you get that impression? By the way, who are the "they" in your second statement? With the construction of your paragraph, it points to the Pharisees. And if that is the case, can you point me to the scriptures where it says that they have their own sabbaths and images of God in the likeness of men?

Quote from: GB
Paul isn't talking about God's Commandments here, he is speaking to the traditions of men "touch no, taste not" burdens that religious men had placed on the people. Like Lent.

Yes, Paul isn't talking about God's Commandments in verses 21-23, but speaks of the commandments and doctrines of men.
 
Quote from: GB
Quote from: Michael
Now while a Christian, especially the Jew, is dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, it is still possible for him to put oneself under these things, and again live like unbelievers in the world.

People who deny themselves and strive to walk "even as He walked" are not unbelievers. In your religion, yes, in the Pharisees religion, yes. But not according to the Gospel.

Unbelievers are those who don't believe that Jesus is Christ the Lord. Even if they deny themselves and strive to walk as Jesus walked, but don't believe that Jesus is Christ the Lord, they are still unbelievers.

Again you falsely accuse that in my religion, people who deny themselves and strive to walk "even as He walked" are unbelievers. You have consistently shown this board that you are a consistent liar. And for what purpose?   

Quote from: GB
Quote from: Michael
And it seems that at the time of Paul, there were such Jewish Christians who not only live like so, but even go to teach others, especially the Gentile Christians, to do the same. So, Paul told them that such was an error and shall not be like so. So he argues in verses 20-23.

Again, your preaching that Paul taught folks to reject God's Laws is a false teaching. Paul taught folks the same as Jesus and the same as the Prophets. "(For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified."

Again you lie or it is your reading and comprehension problem kicking. For I never preached that Paul taught folks to reject God's Laws.

To comment on your quoting "For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.", it only exposes your lack of understanding, if not a reading and comprehension problem, of that passage.

Quote from: GB
Quote from: Michael
These false teachers then who seem to force the Colossians to live by the world system, by placing various ascetic requirements on them. The things spoken of in verse 21 refer to such requirements, which in verse 22, Paul points out the inadequacy of these ordinances/laws saying of such "all are to perish with the using; after the commandments and doctrines of men."

It is sad that you have succumbed to the "other religious voices" out there. That you equate God's Commandments with pagan rituals and rudiments of the world. That you imply that Jesus spent His life walking a Path that Paul teaches against.

What is sad is that you lie consistently. For I have not succumbed to the "other religious voices" out there. I only succumbed to God's voice. And I don't equate God's Commandments with pagan rituals and rudiments of the world. That is just another lie of yours. And I don't imply that Jesus spent His life walking a Path that Paul teaches against. Nothing is new. Nothing but fabricated lies of GB or products of a reading and comprehension problem. Or perhaps an evidence of blindness and of being under deception.

Quote from: GB
But the truth is, before repentance, we all are deceived in believing the "other voice", just as Eve was.

But you have His Word's right in your home now. There will be no excuse when He comes back.

Matt. 13:41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;

42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

I think that is meant and pointed at you.

Offline Michael2012

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Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
« Reply #304 on: Fri Jan 17, 2020 - 13:01:02 »
Quote from: Michael
To all who are concerned about the law on the sabbath, I have this question to ask.

Do righteousness come by the law, that you are so into the matter of the law on the Sabbath?

Before the "SEED" came, there was a Law added to God's Commandments called the "Levitical Priesthood". In it, before a man could become righteous, his sins must first be atoned for. God Gave one of the tribes of Israel called Levi, an exclusive Priesthood which addressed the matter of "atonement".

In it, if a man transgressed a Commandment of God, that man was to take a turtle dove or other animal to the Levite, who would then perform sacrificial "works" according to this Priesthood Law, for the atonement of this man's sins. According to the Law, there was no other way.

Paul, before his conversion, still followed these "works of the Law" for atonement of sins because the Mainstream religion of that time, which he was zealous for, didn't believe Jesus was the "Seed".

They didn't believe Jer. 31 was talking about Jesus, so they were still trying to be justified by the "LAW of Works" as Paul calls it.

satan, as we are warned of, has disguised itself as "ministers of righteousness" and through religious voices convinced people that the "works of the law" Paul speaks of are the 2 greatest commandments of God and all that hang on them.

But if a person follows the instructions of the Messiah Himself, he can overcome this deception.

 "Man shall live by Every Word that Proceeds from the mouth of God".

So, what is your simple answer to the simple question "Do righteousness come by the law, that you are so into the matter of the law on the Sabbath?"

Offline Michael2012

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Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
« Reply #305 on: Fri Jan 17, 2020 - 13:09:25 »
For GB.

Do you believe that the former (old) covenant whose mediator was Moses was replaced by the new covenant whose mediator is Christ? A simple answer will do.

Can you tell us what the old covenant is all about or what is included in that covenant?


Offline RB

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Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
« Reply #306 on: Fri Jan 17, 2020 - 15:20:34 »
The Son was the God that created His Sabbath and told me to keep it Holy, before becoming a man.
That's the key to the proper understanding concerning the Jewish Sabbath day, per Moses and the  Lord's day per the apostles and Jesus himself appearing to them on the FIRST day of the week!

The Lord willing, in the morning, on the "seventh day" of the week, the "old" Jewish Sabbath day, I will finish the post that I started to you.
« Last Edit: Fri Jan 17, 2020 - 15:23:40 by RB »

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Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
« Reply #307 on: Fri Jan 17, 2020 - 18:37:09 »
author=winsome link=topic=74624.msg1055154781#msg1055154781 date=1579274283]
Quote
Totally wrong and your claiming it doesn't make it true.When the priesthood changed there was a change in the law.Perhaps it's not in your Bible.
When there is a change of priesthood, there is necessarily a change of law as well. (Heb 7:12).

Yes, and what you refuse to accept, it seems, is that the Author of Hebrews spells the aforementioned "change" out.

Heb. 7:12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.

13 For he of whom these things are spoken (Jesus) pertaineth to another tribe, (Judah) of which no man gave attendance at the altar.

14 For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Judah; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood.

According to the Priesthood Covenant, Added to God's Commandments on Mt. Sinai, "Till the Seed should come" only a Levite could partake in the Priesthood. It was unlawful for a member of any other tribe to partake of the Priesthood. This is a Biblical Fact. And the Author of Hebrews knew the Promise of the Christ in the New Covenant to take over the exclusive duties of the Priesthood, but before this was possible, it was, of necessity, necessary to change the Law in order to lift the requirement of the Law, that only a Levite could become a Priest.

It's right there in the scriptures you omitted in your reply. It says what changed in the New Covenant, why is changed, and what was changed.

The popular religious tradition of the land, that preaches the entire Law structure of God became obsolete is a deception. An ancient religious tradition of men. The Bible doesn't teach this, religious man does.

Now instead of just ignoring these scriptures as you do the others I have posted, please consider them this time. The Priesthood Law was changed by necessity to allow someone other than a Levite to become the High Priest.

How can you not see this in Heb. 7?


Quote
I've said nothing about a change in the definition of sin.
That's another of your strawmen arguments.

Transgression of God's Law is the definition of sin. You preach that God's Law became obsolete. But the Bible teaches it is the Priesthood with it's sacrificial "works of the Law" which became obsolete.

Quote
"works of the law" are not just sacrificing turtle doves. That is your invention. For Paul "works of the law" are keeping the Old Covenant commands and statutes.

In the Catholic religion, yes, but this is not what Paul taught.

When a man sin's in the Old Covenant, Moses doesn't tell them God said to "Thou shall not kill" and your sins are justified. Moses didn't tell the man who sinned, "Love thy neighbor as thyself" and your sins are justified. Moses taught that when a man transgresses God's Commandments, he is to take an offering to the Levite Priest who is required by Law to perform exclusive "works" specifically designed to cleanse or atone for the sin, in order for the man to be justified.

You aren't taught this but if you actually read the scriptures for yourself you will see that this is true.

The Jews didn't believe Jesus was the Lamb of God. Another Biblical fact you seem to ignore. As a result they continued performing these "works of the Law" to atone for men who transgress God's Commandments. Paul explains that no flesh is justified of sin by these "works of the Law" given by Moses for the justification of sins. That is the Old Covenant. Jesus is our High Priest now. When a man sins, they go to Him in repentance and Faith. The "works of the Law" Moses "ADDED" to God's Commandments for the atonement of sin has become obsolete.

But we are still to become obedient children.

Rom. 2:13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

As Paul teaches.

Rom. 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, (dead) but under grace. (Alive)

15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid. (That means No)

16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?


Polluting, ignoring, or teaching against God's Sabbath is a sin to day just as it was when the Mainstream Preachers of Christ's time polluted and taught against God's Holy Sabbath.

The definition of sin has not changed. The Priesthood which deals with how God's definition of sin is administered, and how transgression of God's definition of sin is atoned for, is what the Bible says has changed. It's righjt there in the Promises of the Christ of the Bible.

Quote
For all who rely on works of the law are under a curse; for it is written, "Cursed be every one who does not abide by all things written in the book of the law, and do them." Gal 3:10

Yes, as the scriptures clearly teach. God's definition of sin has not changed. Only the manner in which it is administered (No more Levite Priests to deliver God's Laws, Jesus is our High Priest now) and no more Priesthood "works of the Law" for the atonement of sins. (The Christ atones for them Himself as His Promise of the New Covenant defines.)

Just as He promised in Jer. 31.

If I am relying on the Sacrificial "works of the Law" for atonement of sins, then I am cursed because these "works" did not take away sin. Therefore I am obligated to keep the whole Law without fail, because these "works of the Law" didn't cleanse me. But I have already sinned, as has all men. So then I am truly cursed because I will die in my sins if I believe it is these "works" which cleanses me.

Quote
Did you read that - all things written in the book of the law?
Q: What was written in the book of the law?
A: God's command and statutes.

Yes, we are supposed to follow the instructions of God as we are His now, purchased with the Blood of the Christ. Men who live contrary to God's Laws are cursed. As Jesus said.

Matt. 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. (Lawlessness)


Quote
"...if you obey the voice of the Lord your God, to keep his commandments and his statutes which are written in this book of the law.." (Dt 30:10)

Yes, This is the Christ's Words, the Word of God which became Flesh. Not the Pope, or Benny Hinn. These are the Words that last forever, that Jesus said are Spirit and life.

Duet 30:19 I (The Christ) call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

20 That thou mayest love the LORD thy God, and that thou mayest obey his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto him: for he is thy life, and the length of thy days: that thou mayest dwell in the land which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.

He promised the end of the Priesthood He gave on Mt. Sinai. He spelled out exactly what HIS New Covenant is, and Hebrews confirms it.

You have just been deceived by the "Many" who come in Christ's Name. You have been convinced to believe in a different Covenant, one that religious man created, not the Christ.

Be a Nichodemus, not a Pharisee. "Come out of her" before God places His judgment on her.

Today if you hear His voice, harden not your heart.


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Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
« Reply #308 on: Fri Jan 17, 2020 - 18:46:53 »
If anyone truly desires to know a true heretic then all you have to do is to test them concerning the doctrine of the Sonship of Jesus Christ~it is hard for them to hide that they are a bonafide scriptural heretic! I highlighted in red three serious heresies that he just posted.

Jesus Christ in his complex nature WAS GOD PERIOD! He was NOT sent to create the worlds, In his Divinity, he spoke the worlds into existence, NO ONE sent him to do this! AS the Son OF God, he was sent into the world, but he in his Divinity as ONE with God, was NOT sent to do anything.

The Word of God was NOT KILLED, Jesus the Son of Man died at the hands of wicked men.

God DID NOT risk His Immortality! That's blasphemy from an ignorant person of spiritual truths!

GB, Come here and debate me on this subject: http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/seventh-day-adventist-forum-(sda)/michael-the-archangel-one-who-is-god/  this is the third time that I have asked you to do so. It was you that said to winsome: You know GB, those are words of a biblical hypocrite~saying something against another person when you are just as guilty if not more so than those you are speaking to!

Let me go and answer the post to me from the man whose belly is full of the east wind!


You will no more acknowledge what God's Word exposes in you than the Mainstream Preachers in Jesus' time acknowledged what the Word of God exposed in them.

This is just more deflection and miss-direction to keep from addressing your own preaching which is contrary to scriptures.

Paul never called God's Commandments "Beggarly Elements" as you preach, and Jesus never gave us a New Lord's day in Matt. 12 as you preach. But admitting your doctrines of men is something neither you, not the white washed walls of Jesus time will ever do.

And that's OK. It's enough that you are shown your error. I can do no more that this.




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Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
« Reply #309 on: Fri Jan 17, 2020 - 19:49:37 »
 author=Michael2012 link=topic=74624.msg1055154768#msg1055154768 date=1579265750]


Quote
Your continuance in goodness, departing from iniquity, keeping His commandments, putting on the new man, and all the things you said you can do and ought to do, may well seem to you as coming from you and to your credit.

These are the instructions of the Christ of the Bible, these are the lifestyle choices Jesus, the Jesus of the Bible, in His Word said to make. You sneak around and deceive by implying that I said these things when what I did was post His Word's. These are the things Jesus said the truly repentant "ought to do". I am not ashamed because I believe them.


 
Quote
Jesus doesn't "deny Himself for us". Jesus doesn't "continue in His Goodness" for us. Jesus doesn't "put on the New Man" for us. Jesus doesn't "Depart from iniquity" for us. He raises us up a "New Man", who can made new choices, and who can "serve righteousness" instead of serve sin. Jesus doesn't "serve Righteousness for us" He doesn't "Walk in the good works foreordained by God that we should walk in them"  for us.

Matt. 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:

Jesus doesn't "Do them" for us.

Yes, "many" who come in Christ's Name preach just that. That we are raised from the dead and are not obligated to do anything. Jesus does it all for us. But this is one of the many religions Jesus and His Prophets and Disciples warned to stay away from.

Of course it is not Jesus who will repent, but the man. It isn't Jesus who will repent unto God and faith towards the Christ. It isn't Jesus who will do all that, but the man. That's just an obvious fact. But consider this confession of a new man, the apostle Paul, "I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me".

Yes, the truly repentant denies Himself, the religion he was born into, his opinion of right and wrong, holy and unholy, clean and unclean, and walks instead, even as Jesus walks. Knowing that the religious men of the world will ridicule them, and insult them, just as they did Jesus for becoming obedient unto His Father, and My Father unto death.

Quote
This tells a lot about the new man. So that, all such instructions to not sin, are but reminders of who we are, that is a new man, a new creation in Christ, and not the means to be a new man nor to be in Christ.

You said "He raises us up a "New Man", who can made new choices, and who can "serve righteousness" instead of serve sin." This statement of yours implies that you are saying that the old man cannot make new choices, cannot serve righteousness. Do you believe that? An explanation from you is in order here.   

The dead can not make choices. The old man is crucified, dead. Dead man can not serve righteousness.


Quote

You said "If I am dead, which is what it means to be "Under the Law", then I am free from sin." So if you are alive, what that means to you is that you are "NOT under the Law". Right? And so also, by what you say there, if you are "NOT under the law" then you are NOT free from sin. "NOT free" to me denotes slavery, being bound, confined as in the case of a prisoner. Won't you like to review and reconsider what you are saying there?
I am bound. I am a servant to whom I obey. You aren't. In your religion you are "Free from God's Laws". But according to the Scriptures, all of them, we are free from the wages of sin, not the definition of sin.

I am not ashamed of the Scriptures Michael. I'm fine with being a New Man, and this time a servant to righteousness, instead of a servant to transgression of God's Laws.

So, it's clear, you admit, profess, believe, and teach that you are not free from God's laws.

Yes, I am free from the deception taught by the religious men of the land we were born into. I am free from the burden of spiritual death and blindness, I am free from the wages of sin. Freed from these things by the Blood of the Christ. I am no longer my own. I no longer have the right to reject God's instructions as I did before. I am free from the one thing that kept me from serving the Lord's Christ, and that is the death my past choices brought me.

Now I am alive and free to serve Righteousness, as defined by the Christ's Father, and my Father. You don't understand any of this because in your religion, it isn't the sin that is the problem, it is God's Law that is the problem. It is God's Law that Jesus freed you from in your religion. Now you are free from God's Law, you can make whatever choice you want. You can have images of God in the likeness of men, you can work 7 days a week or not, whatever you want. You can reject whatever Commandment of God that doesn't suit you and you are still guaranteed eternal life.

Like the Pharisees before you, the warnings of the Bible are not for you, they are always for others. As a result, there is no real discussion about what the Christ says about His Sabbath, or what He says His New Covenant is, because you are convinced you are already good to go. Your preacher has convinced you that you have nothing to fear, that you are at peace, peace. Just like you said, you are not saved by hope, you are convinced you are already there. Already resurrected.

So you and I are on two completely different paths, just as the Pharisees and Paul were on two completely different paths.

So I am finished here. This chasing your tail will never end unless I end it. You will, of course, want the last word and I will let you have it.


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Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
« Reply #310 on: Fri Jan 17, 2020 - 20:10:18 »
Yes to what? Not to the degree that you desire others to believe. They came together into one place on the first day of the week. Do you desire proof? Of course, you do not want it, for you are pushing the Jewish Sabbath as they of the Jewish nation kept it per many examples in the gospels, and as they were commanded to do so. But the apostles and followers of Jesus Christ assembled on the first day of the week in commemoration of Jesus' Resurrection . Proof: Here we have only that they assembled~and Christ appeared to them. But there is more that will help us to see the importance of the first day of the week~Jesus waited eight days more before to appeared again to them, since that was the space of time that they ALL came together again INTO ONE PLACE~which would have been the next FIRST DAY OF THE WEEK, NOT on the Jewish Sabbath, but on what came to be called by the holy apostles as the Lord's day! You and your Jewish Sabbath day that you desire to call the Lord's Sabbath day for NT believers is a lie. But, what does biblical proof mean to people like you? not very much.

I have much more to say, but I have a meeting to attend....later.


John 20:1 The first day of the week cometh Mary Magdalene early, when it was yet dark, unto the sepulchre, and seeth the stone taken away from the sepulchre.

2 Then she runneth, and cometh to Simon Peter, and to the other disciple, whom Jesus loved, and saith unto them, They have taken away the Lord out of the sepulchre, and we know not where they have laid him.

So on this day, the Disciples had just Honored the Christ by following His Holy Sabbath. Then when it was over, Mary went to the Grave, early Sunday morning, while it was yet dark, and Jesus was already gone.

Even you must accept this Biblical Truth.

19 Then the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.


Lol, this is the "SAME DAY" after they Honored God's Holy Sabbath, then, after the Sabbath they went to the Grave to anoint Jesus with Spices and He was already gone.

This is why I am so eager to expose you Red. Because of this kind of purposeful deception. Trying to make it look like they we gathered on a New religious day, when the scriptures clearly show it was the day after God's Sabbath that They All Honored.

So you preach the lie that Paul calls God's Commandments "Beggarly Elements", and now you use the day after Jesus rose from the dead to promote your Catholic Sabbath.

And after 8 days from Sunday evening is Monday evening. So which is the New Lord's Day Red? Sunday, or Monday.

But this is OK. The more you preach, the more those seeking truth can see your hypocrisy.





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Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
« Reply #311 on: Fri Jan 17, 2020 - 20:47:52 »
 author=Michael2012 link=topic=74624.msg1055154792#msg1055154792 date=1579288165]
For GB.

Quote
Do you believe that the former (old) covenant whose mediator was Moses was replaced by the new covenant whose mediator is Christ? A simple answer will do.

Yes.

Quote
Can you tell us what the old covenant is all about or what is included in that covenant?

I will not tell you, I will let the Word's of the Christ who created it, that I believe in, tell you. As I have already done several times.

Jer. 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel;

OK Michael, here it is. This is not the Pope or Jimmy Swaggart teaching here. This is the Christ, the Word of God which became flesh, that is telling you what HIS New Covenant is.

After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Here is what the God of Abraham says about His Laws. Not that He removes them, changes them, replaces them, amends them as you preach. Not that He "Frees us from them" or delivers us from them as you preach to the world. But that He writes them on the minds of His People.

But if you were really seeking you might ask, "well how was God's Laws administered before "After those days"?" And the answer is His Laws were administered by Levite Priest's, who sit in Moses seat, who had the exclusive duty of administering God's Laws, "till the Seed should come". As it is written;

Heb. 7:If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?

This is why Paul told those truly repentant not to let religious men judge them in respect to His Sabbaths, because these are written on the minds of those the Blood of Christ purchased.

34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

But if you were really seeking you might ask, "well how was sin forgiven before "After those days"?"

And the answer is God gave Moses a Priesthood Covenant, made up of only Levites, in which a man that sinned was to bring an animal to for a sin offering. And this Levite Priest would perform specific sacrificial "works of the law" for the atonement of this man's sins. This Law was "ADDED" to God's Commandments and Laws "Till the seed should come".

So here it is Michael. This is a description of the old covenant God gave to Israel on Mt. Sinai, and the New Covenant this same God promised "after those days".

It wasn't the Law that defined sin that was changed, it was the Priesthood Law that was "ADDED" to it on Mt. Sinai that became obsolete.

And Hebrews confirms it.

Heb. 7:12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.

And what was the LAW that was changed?

13 For he of whom these things are spoken pertaineth to another tribe, of which no man gave attendance at the altar.

14 For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Judah; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood.

The "ADDED" Priesthood, added because of transgression of God's Commandments, Added 430 years after Abraham obeyed God's Laws, Statutes, and Commandments, is what changed.

In it only a Levite could become a High Priest. It was forbidden for anyone else other than a Levite to perform any Priesthood duties. So before Jesus could become our high Priest, there was, of necessity, also a change in the Law to allow someone from "another tribe" to partake of God's Priesthood.

It's right in your own Bible Michael.











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Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
« Reply #312 on: Fri Jan 17, 2020 - 21:26:28 »
As your post was so long I am going to respond in several posts.
 
 You seem to think that many words make an argument, but most of them are just padding and not relevant (or just insults).
 
 You say:
   
and
 
You are speaking of what you personally interpret scriptures to teach. 
Are you infallible?
Are you one of the best theologians of the last 2,000 years?
Are you one of the best apologists of the last 2,000 years?
 
I acknowledge that I am not. I acknowledge the skills, the knowledge, the understanding of the early church fathers; apologists and theologians such as Ignatius of Antioch, Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, Athansius, Augustine.

Irenaeus was only 2 generations from the apostle John 
Ignatius of Antioch was a contemporary of some of the apostles. Indeed Theodoret of Cyrus (5th century) says he was appointed to the see of Antioch by St. Peter himself. He and his friend Polycarp were reputed to be disciples of the apostles John.
To think you can sit down with a Bible and deduce all your beliefs from that by your own intellect is foolishness (and arrogant) in the extreme. You are effectively claiming to be infallible. No wonder you come up with strange ideas.
 
 What you are totally failing to do is to distinguish between God's moral laws,, applicable to all people over all time, and other types of laws given to certain peoples for a limited time.
 
 You also seem to be failing to understand Covenants and their applicability to the way God interacts with man.
 

I understand how much faith you place in those great religious minds you picked from the literally hundreds to pick from. It is not me who dedicated so many Word's to warn of religious men. Paul was taught by one of the most famous theologian of his time, Gamaliel.

And while he was polluting God's Sabbath and killing God's people, he was also convinced as you, that he was following the truth. Only to learn by revelation of Jesus Christ that he was actually serving satan.

We are to live by Every Word of God. At least this is what the Jesus of the Bible teaches. And that would include His Warnings as well

Matt. 24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.

5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I (Jesus) am Christ; and shall deceive many.

In this warning Jesus could have warned about anyone. Jews, Islam, Atheists, drug dealers, etc., but He didn't. Of all the dangers in this world, He chose to warn about "Christians" deceiving folks.

To deceive means to tell folks lies about something.

Like the New Covenant is the removal of God's Commandments, or that Jesus died Friday night and was raised before sunup on Sunday morning. Or that the Jews were trying to earn salvation by honoring God's Laws, or that God created laws which condemned men born with a certain DNA, or that Paul called God's Commandments "Beggarly Elements", or that Jesus was a handsome long haired man, I mean the list goes on and on.

Just because Jesus has freed me from these deceptions doesn't mean I am infallible. WE are surrounded by powers of the air, religious influences of man who teach for doctrines the commandments of men.

I am sharing some insight with you. Not what I learned from some ancient theologian like Gamaliel or those who you trust, or any other religious man. But from study and I post scriptures and make my case. You have not engaged in any form of discussion about scriptures. You just reject anything that I believe which is contrary to the preachers you have chosen to trust.

That's OK. I just wanted the discussion, I just asked questions about mainstream doctrines that don't align with scriptures, in my view.

If you don't want to discuss them, and choose instead to reference your favorite religious men, that is your choice. For me, I am confident Paul knew what he was talking about.

2 Tim. 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

And the Christ Himself.

Matt. 7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:

25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.

26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:

27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.

Rom. 2:13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

I refuse to ignore scriptures just because they bring popular religious doctrines into question.











Offline Michael2012

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Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
« Reply #313 on: Sat Jan 18, 2020 - 01:28:17 »
Totally wrong and your claiming it doesn't make it true.When the priesthood changed there was a change in the law.Perhaps it's not in your Bible.
When there is a change of priesthood, there is necessarily a change of law as well. (Heb 7:12).
Yes, and what you refuse to accept, it seems, is that the Author of Hebrews spells the aforementioned "change" out.

Heb. 7:12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.

13 For he of whom these things are spoken (Jesus) pertaineth to another tribe, (Judah) of which no man gave attendance at the altar.

14 For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Judah; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood.

According to the Priesthood Covenant, Added to God's Commandments on Mt. Sinai, "Till the Seed should come" only a Levite could partake in the Priesthood. It was unlawful for a member of any other tribe to partake of the Priesthood. This is a Biblical Fact. And the Author of Hebrews knew the Promise of the Christ in the New Covenant to take over the exclusive duties of the Priesthood, but before this was possible, it was, of necessity, necessary to change the Law in order to lift the requirement of the Law, that only a Levite could become a Priest.

It's right there in the scriptures you omitted in your reply. It says what changed in the New Covenant, why is changed, and what was changed.

Priesthood Covenant? This is a first of this, I have to say. Is there such a thing as Priesthood Covenant between the Levites and God spoken in Scriptures? Or is this just one of your imagination and invention, a doctrine of man, of GB?

GB, please show this board that a Priesthood Covenant do exist between Levites and God and where you get to read it in scriptures.

Quote from: GB
The popular religious tradition of the land, that preaches the entire Law structure of God became obsolete is a deception. An ancient religious tradition of men. The Bible doesn't teach this, religious man does.

Now instead of just ignoring these scriptures as you do the others I have posted, please consider them this time. The Priesthood Law was changed by necessity to allow someone other than a Levite to become the High Priest.

How can you not see this in Heb. 7?

Yes, verse 12 says the priesthood was changed, but also speaks of a necessary change of the law. The difference is that, you take the law there as referring only to the Levitical priesthood, when it refers to the covenant laws, which Israel received from God through Moses. Consider the following passages in the same chapter of Hebrews:

11 If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?

Tell us, what does the writer of Hebrews refer to by "law"? What law do the people received under the Levitical priesthood?

Quote from: GB
Transgression of God's Law is the definition of sin. You preach that God's Law became obsolete. But the Bible teaches it is the Priesthood with it's sacrificial "works of the Law" which became obsolete.

And the Bible also teaches that the covenant between God and Israel whose mediator was Moses was replaced by a new covenant, so that the former covenant was no longer. What do you say constitutes the former covenant? And what do you say constitutes the new covenant which replaced the former covenant?

Quote from: GB
When a man sin's in the Old Covenant, Moses doesn't tell them God said to "Thou shall not kill" and your sins are justified. Moses didn't tell the man who sinned, "Love thy neighbor as thyself" and your sins are justified. Moses taught that when a man transgresses God's Commandments, he is to take an offering to the Levite Priest who is required by Law to perform exclusive "works" specifically designed to cleanse or atone for the sin, in order for the man to be justified.

I have already exposed the error of your teaching elsewhere regarding this GB. But let me expose that again here by asking you the simple questions yet again.

How do you define atonement? How do you define justification? Are they the same to you?

Show us scriptures which says that the Levitical priesthood is for the justification of the sinner.

You say "When a man sins in the Old covenant...". May I ask, what commandments do you refer to that those in covenant with God, when they violate such, is said to have sinned? Does he also sin when he offer an animal sacrifice short of what is required of him to bring, such as one with blemish?

If you say that only the Levitical priesthood was changed, do you say that the judgments and curses included in the old covenant still stands and effective to you? Do your church stone to death an adulteress in your new covenant? Do your church punish by death anyone who take the name of the Lord in vain or commit blasphemy against God?

Quote from: GB
The Jews didn't believe Jesus was the Lamb of God. Another Biblical fact you seem to ignore. As a result they continued performing these "works of the Law" to atone for men who transgress God's Commandments. Paul explains that no flesh is justified of sin by these "works of the Law" given by Moses for the justification of sins. That is the Old Covenant. Jesus is our High Priest now. When a man sins, they go to Him in repentance and Faith. The "works of the Law" Moses "ADDED" to God's Commandments for the atonement of sin has become obsolete.

What the Jews did not believe of Jesus is that he is the promised Messiah. They, in all probability, did not even have knowledge that the promised Messiah is the "Lamb of God". But yes, they continue to be under the Mosaic covenant and rely on the Levitical priesthood for atonement of sin.

Quote from: GB
But we are still to become obedient children.

Rom. 2:13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

As Paul teaches.

Rom. 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, (dead) but under grace. (Alive)

15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid. (That means No)

16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

Of course, every child of God, God wants to be obedient to Him. There is no argument against that.

Again, you refer to Romans 2:13, and have not until now learned its proper meaning and so misapply. You ought to study again Romans 2. Hint: try to find out if Paul is talking about Christians or about unconverted Gentiles and unconverted Jews.

The passage mentioned "law". What do you say does "law" refer to there? Do you have it refer to the priesthood regulations or what?

Quote from: GB
Polluting, ignoring, or teaching against God's Sabbath is a sin to day just as it was when the Mainstream Preachers of Christ's time polluted and taught against God's Holy Sabbath.

The definition of sin has not changed. The Priesthood which deals with how God's definition of sin is administered, and how transgression of God's definition of sin is atoned for, is what the Bible says has changed. It's righjt there in the Promises of the Christ of the Bible.

You seem to be afraid of saying God's law and prefer to say God's definition of sin instead. Well, there is obviously something fishy about that, I can sense.

You say, "The Priesthood which deals with how God's definition of sin is administered, and how transgression of God's definition of sin is atoned for". This tells me that the law referred to in Heb.7:11 refers to (according to your statement) "God's definition of sin and the laws pertaining to atonement". Is that right GB? Deny or affirm? Error exposed again, right GB? But I have to say, that in your quoted statement here, you got that right, for the inspired writer of Hebrews 7 does not refer to "law" as only referring to the Levitical priesthood as you want us to believe on the other hand, but refers to all of God's commandments, statutes, regulations, ordinances, (all of which I suppose you refer to as God's definition of sin), and judgments, curses, which are in the Book of the Law.

Quote from: GB
Yes, as the scriptures clearly teach. God's definition of sin has not changed. Only the manner in which it is administered (No more Levite Priests to deliver God's Laws, Jesus is our High Priest now) and no more Priesthood "works of the Law" for the atonement of sins. (The Christ atones for them Himself as His Promise of the New Covenant defines.)

Just as He promised in Jer. 31.

If I am relying on the Sacrificial "works of the Law" for atonement of sins, then I am cursed because these "works" did not take away sin. Therefore I am obligated to keep the whole Law without fail, because these "works of the Law" didn't cleanse me. But I have already sinned, as has all men. So then I am truly cursed because I will die in my sins if I believe it is these "works" which cleanses me.

Let me ask you GB, when the Jews, in OT times sinned, and repented and have done according to the law, what was required of them for the atonement of their sins, were their sins forgiven or not?

How about, if one committed murder during the OT times, but have repented and have done according to the law, what was required of them for the atonement of their sins, were their sins forgiven or not? Or are they to be judged and condemned to death according to the Mosaic law?

You said "So then I am truly cursed because I will die in my sins if I believe it is these "works" which cleanses me." Are you suggesting then that even those Jews in OT times who repented and went to do according to the law for atonement of their sins, are still cursed?

Quote from: GB
Yes, we are supposed to follow the instructions of God as we are His now, purchased with the Blood of the Christ. Men who live contrary to God's Laws are cursed. As Jesus said.

Matt. 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. (Lawlessness)

I have already pointed out to you the error in this. You are misapplying the passage, taking it out of context. Jesus is not talking about Christians (obviously), nor about just anybody here, but specifically about false prophets. Why you keep such error with you and keep misapplying and teaching it, really is shocking.

Quote from: GB
Yes, This is the Christ's Words, the Word of God which became Flesh. Not the Pope, or Benny Hinn. These are the Words that last forever, that Jesus said are Spirit and life.

Duet 30:19 I (The Christ) call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

20 That thou mayest love the LORD thy God, and that thou mayest obey his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto him: for he is thy life, and the length of thy days: that thou mayest dwell in the land which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.

No GB. To be accurate and without changing scriptures, those are the words of "YHVH" or "YHWH" God. 

Offline Michael2012

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Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
« Reply #314 on: Sat Jan 18, 2020 - 04:37:11 »
Your continuance in goodness, departing from iniquity, keeping His commandments, putting on the new man, and all the things you said you can do and ought to do, may well seem to you as coming from you and to your credit.

These are the instructions of the Christ of the Bible, these are the lifestyle choices Jesus, the Jesus of the Bible, in His Word said to make. You sneak around and deceive by implying that I said these things when what I did was post His Word's. These are the things Jesus said the truly repentant "ought to do". I am not ashamed because I believe them.

Those are coming from you GB and not from Christ, and I quote:

Quote from: GB
Maybe? "If I continue in His Goodness", otherwise I shall be cut off.

Maybe? "if I depart from iniquity", otherwise Jesus doesn't even know me.

Maybe? "if" I keep His Commandments.

I can "Put on the New Man", I can "Strive to enter a certain gate", I can "put on the Armor of God", I can look for the "Escapes" God gives me in every temptation. "I can not let disobedience to God reign in my mortal body", I can "resist the devil".

These are all things a man who is alive can do to overcome in this life. A dead man can do none of these things.


So, you maintain here that somehow that it is you who make yourself to being a new man and it is you who shall keep yourself saved. Should I, regarding that, say Praise God or Praise GB?

Quote from: GB
Quote from: Michael
Of course it is not Jesus who will repent, but the man. It isn't Jesus who will repent unto God and faith towards the Christ. It isn't Jesus who will do all that, but the man. That's just an obvious fact. But consider this confession of a new man, the apostle Paul, "I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me".

Yes, the truly repentant denies Himself, the religion he was born into, his opinion of right and wrong, holy and unholy, clean and unclean, and walks instead, even as Jesus walks. Knowing that the religious men of the world will ridicule them, and insult them, just as they did Jesus for becoming obedient unto His Father, and My Father unto death.

So, do you know what Paul meant when he said "I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me"? If Christ liveth in you, and not you liveth in you though you live, is there anything you lack in you or are you complete in Him? Does not all the fulness of the Godhead dwelleth in Christ who liveth in you? If you walk as Jesus walked, does that make Christ liveth in you? Or you walk as Jesus walked because He liveth in you? If you walk as Jesus walked, does that make you a new man? Or you walk as Jesus walked because you were created by God a new man?     

Quote from: GB
Quote from: Michael
This tells a lot about the new man. So that, all such instructions to not sin, are but reminders of who we are, that is a new man, a new creation in Christ, and not the means to be a new man nor to be in Christ.

You said "He raises us up a "New Man", who can made new choices, and who can "serve righteousness" instead of serve sin." This statement of yours implies that you are saying that the old man cannot make new choices, cannot serve righteousness. Do you believe that? An explanation from you is in order here.

The dead can not make choices. The old man is crucified, dead. Dead man can not serve righteousness.

How about those who were not crucified, the unbelievers? Are they of the old man or of the new man? Of course they are of the old man. Can they not make new choices? Can they not serve righteousness?   

Quote from: GB
Quote from: Michael
So, it's clear, you admit, profess, believe, and teach that you are not free from God's laws.

Yes, I am free from the deception taught by the religious men of the land we were born into. I am free from the burden of spiritual death and blindness, I am free from the wages of sin. Freed from these things by the Blood of the Christ. I am no longer my own. I no longer have the right to reject God's instructions as I did before. I am free from the one thing that kept me from serving the Lord's Christ, and that is the death my past choices brought me.

So are you here claiming that you cannot be deceived by the religious men of the land you were born into? That you can't be burdened of spiritual death and blindness, can't be punished by death as wages of sin? That you lost the right to reject God's instructions? Well that tells a lot about your faith.

And behind all that, you are not denying that you admit, profess, believe, and teach that you are not free from God's laws. Let me cite some of God's laws. Tell us if you are not free of such:

1. All ten commandments found in Exod. 20
2. He who strikes his father or his mother shall surely be put to death.
3. He who is eight days old among you shall be circumcised, every male child in your generations, he who is born in your house or bought with money from any foreigner who is not your descendant.
4. The uncircumcised male child, who is not circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin, that person shall be cut off from his people
5. If a man entices a virgin who is not betrothed, and lies with her, he shall surely pay the bride-price for her to be his wife.
6. You shall not permit a sorceress to live.
7. You shall neither mistreat a stranger nor oppress him, for you were strangers in the land of Egypt.
8. If you lend money to any of My people who are poor among you, you shall not be like a moneylender to him; you shall not charge him interest.
9. You shall not delay to offer the first of your ripe produce and your juices. The firstborn of your sons you shall give to Me.
10. Three times you shall keep a feast to Me in the year: You shall keep the Feast of Unleavened Bread (you shall eat unleavened bread seven days, as I commanded you, at the time appointed in the month of Abib, for in it you came out of Egypt; none shall appear before Me empty)
11. “Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one! You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your strength. “And these words which I command you today shall be in your heart. You shall teach them diligently to your children, and shall talk of them when you sit in your house, when you walk by the way, when you lie down, and when you rise up. You shall bind them as a sign on your hand, and they shall be as frontlets between your eyes. You shall write them on the doorposts of your house and on your gates.
12. “When your son asks you in time to come, saying, ‘What is the meaning of the testimonies, the statutes, and the judgments which the Lord our God has commanded you?’ then you shall say to your son: ‘We were slaves of Pharaoh in Egypt, and the Lord brought us out of Egypt with a mighty hand; and the Lord showed signs and wonders before our eyes, great and severe, against Egypt, Pharaoh, and all his household. Then He brought us out from there, that He might bring us in, to give us the land of which He swore to our fathers. And the Lord commanded us to [g]observe all these statutes, to fear the Lord our God, for our good always, that He might preserve us alive, as it is this day. Then it will be righteousness for us, if we are careful to observe all these commandments before the Lord our God, as He has commanded us.’

There many others, but maybe for some other time. So, let those be for now.

Quote from: GB
Now I am alive and free to serve Righteousness, as defined by the Christ's Father, and my Father. You don't understand any of this because in your religion, it isn't the sin that is the problem, it is God's Law that is the problem. It is God's Law that Jesus freed you from in your religion. Now you are free from God's Law, you can make whatever choice you want. You can have images of God in the likeness of men, you can work 7 days a week or not, whatever you want. You can reject whatever Commandment of God that doesn't suit you and you are still guaranteed eternal life.

The law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. And I stand fast in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made me free, and I have been called unto liberty, and instructed to not use my liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve others. As free, but not using my liberty for a cover-up of evil, but as the servants of God. You don't understand any of this because in your religion, you are not free from the law (wherewith Israel are under covenant with God to observe and keep ALL and EVERY commandments, statutes, ordinances, regulations, and live by them, with the judgments and the curses that goes with it, altogether considered), except for the Levitical priesthood.   

Quote from: GB
Like the Pharisees before you, the warnings of the Bible are not for you, they are always for others. As a result, there is no real discussion about what the Christ says about His Sabbath, or what He says His New Covenant is, because you are convinced you are already good to go. Your preacher has convinced you that you have nothing to fear, that you are at peace, peace. Just like you said, you are not saved by hope, you are convinced you are already there. Already resurrected.

No other than the Holy Spirit, convict me of sin, of righteousness and of judgment. And no other preacher than the Holy Spirit, convinced me that I have nothing to fear and that I have peace and is at peace with God in Christ.

As usual, you put words into my mouth, and make it appear that I meant what you said I said. I never said I was already resurrected (bodily). That's just clearly GB's natural language, lies.

Scriptures have it clear in the following passages:

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.


Quote from: GB
So you and I are on two completely different paths, just as the Pharisees and Paul were on two completely different paths.

So I am finished here. This chasing your tail will never end unless I end it. You will, of course, want the last word and I will let you have it.

Of course you are finished, for your false teaching and doctrines had been exposed. Not only here and now, but even before and then. You just pretend not to be and just keep on repeating preaching the same refuted and exposed lies, with all the false accusations, lying, straw men, ad hominem, and what have you, that goes with it.

Me, I follow this scriptural principle and attitude, towards them who oppose:

2 Timothy 2:24 And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient,

25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;

26 And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.


 

     
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