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Christian Interests => Organized Religion and Religious Movements Discussions => Seventh Day Adventist Forum => Topic started by: Hobie on Wed May 22, 2013 - 05:38:47

Title: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
Post by: Hobie on Wed May 22, 2013 - 05:38:47
Nowhere in the scriptures do you find one word which sanctions Sunday worship, you can search in the Old as well as the New Testament there is nothing. The word Sunday itself is not found in the Bible, you only see the number of the days so that it is clear what day is which. In the New Testament the first day of the week is mentioned eight times. In none of the eight instances is the first day said to be a day of worship, never is it said to be the Christian substitute for Sabbath, and neither do the texts suggest that the first day of the week should be regarded as a memorial of Christ's resurrection. Lets look in this study by Kenneth Strand, 'The Sabbath in Scripture and History'  at each of the eight New Testament passages that mention the first day of the week.

Matthew 28:1, "After the sabbath, as the first day of the week was dawning, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary went to see the tomb. And suddenly there was a great earthquake...." Jesus was crucified on Friday. He rested in the tomb over the Sabbath and rose early on Sunday morning. The verse indicates that the women disciples returned to the tomb at the very first opportunity after the death and burial of Jesus. Because the Sabbath came so soon after His burial, they could not approach the tomb again until after sundown on Sabbath evening.(The Sabbath began at sundown on the sixth day and ended at sundown on the seventh day; compare Lev. 23:32; Neh. 13:19; Mark 1:21, 32) Early Sunday morning was the most convenient time for them to visit the tomb.

Mark 16:1, 2, "When the sabbath was over, Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James, and Salome bought spices, so that they might go and anoint him. And very early on the first day of the week, when the sun had risen, they went to the tomb."Mark records the same events as Matthew with the additional information that the women visited the tomb early on the Sunday morning for the express purpose of anointing Jesus' body with spices.

Mark 16:9, "Now after he rose early on the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, from whom he had cast out seven demons."This verse simply records that, after His resurrection early on the Sunday morning, Jesus appeared to Mary Magdalene.

Luke 23:54 * 24:1, "It [the day of Jesus' death and burial] was the day of Preparation, and the sabbath was beginning. The women who had come with him from Galilee followed, and they saw the tomb and how his body was laid. Then they returned, and prepared spices and ointments. On the sabbath they rested according to the commandment. But on the first day of the week, at early dawn, they came to the tomb, taking the spices that they had prepared." The Sabbath came a few hours after Jesus' death on the cross. The women disciples "rested the sabbath day according to the commandment" (Luke 23:56, KJV). Then very early in the morning of the first day they visited the tomb to anoint the body of Jesus. The fact that they observed the Sabbath rest is sufficient indication that Jesus had never attempted to change the day or to suggest that after His death the first day would replace the Sabbath. Writing years after the event, Luke gave not the slightest hint that, even though the women disciples of Jesus observed the Sabbath, such a practice was no longer expected of Christians. He simply recorded that the Sabbath day "according to the commandment," which Jesus' followers were careful to observe, was the day after the crucifixion day (Friday), and before the resurrection day (Sunday).

John 20:1, "Early on the first day of the week, while it was still dark, Mary Magdalene came to the tomb and saw that the stone had been removed from the tomb."Mary Magdalene visited the tomb early the first day of the week. Nothing is said of Sunday as a day of worship or rest.

John 20:19, "When it was evening on that day, the first day of the week, and the doors of the house where the disciples had met were locked for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood among them and said,'Peace be with you.'" On the evening of the first day of the week the disciples were assembled behind locked doors "for fear of the Jews." Jesus appeared to them at that time. The passage does not say that henceforth Sunday was to be the day for worship. Since it was the evening of the first day of the week that Jesus appeared to the disciples, it was after sundown. According to Jewish reckoning this was actually the beginning of the second day (Monday; compare Gen. 1:5, 8). A week later when Thomas happened to be present, Jesus met with the disciples again (verse 26). But, writing years later, John records nothing regarding Sunday as a day of Christian worship. John's narrative gives no warrant for regarding Sunday as a substitute for the Sabbath or as a day to be distinguished by Christians above any other day of the week. And there is no indication in the passage that Sunday should ever be observed as a memorial of Christ's resurrection.

Acts 20:7, "On the first day of the week, when we met to break bread, Paul was holding a discussion with them; since he intended to leave the next day, he continued speaking until midnight."Since the meeting was held at night on the first day of the week, it may have been Saturday night.

According to Jewish reckoning, the Sabbath ended and the first day of the week began at sundown of the seventh day. If it were Sunday evening, the event gives no suggestion that Sunday should be observed as a day of worship. The following verses record that Paul preached a sermon on Thursday. The next day after the meeting recorded in Acts 20:7 (Monday), Paul and his party set sail for Mitylene (Acts 20:13, 14). The following day (Tuesday) they arrived opposite Chios (verse 15). The next day (Wednesday) they passed Samos (verse 15), and the day after that (Thursday) they arrived at Miletus (verse 15). The elders of the church of Ephesus met Paul at Miletus, and he preached to them (Acts 20:16-36). Because a Christian service was held on Thursday, do we conclude that Thursday is a day for regular Christian worship replacing the observance of the seventh-day Sabbath? A religious service on Sunday, Thursday, or any other day certainly did not make that day a replacement for the seventh-day Sabbath or a day of regular Christian worship and rest. There is no special significance in the disciples breaking bread at this first-day meeting, for they broke bread "daily" (Acts 2:46). We are not told that it was a Lord's Supper celebration, nor are we told that henceforth Sunday should be the day for this service to be conducted. To read Sunday sacredness or Sunday observance into Acts 20:7 is to do violence to the text.

1 Corinthians 16:1, 2, "Now concerning the collection for the saints: you should follow the directions I gave the churches of Galatia. On the first day of every week, each of you is to put aside and save whatever extra you earn, so that collections need not be taken when I come. And when I arrive, I will send any whom you approve with letters to take your gift to Jerusalem."These verses may be literally translated from the Greek as follows: "And concerning the collection for the saints, as I instructed the churches of Galatia, so also you do. On the first day of the week let each of you place (or 'lay') by himself, storing up whatever he might be prospered, so that when I come there might be no collections." (Italics supplied.) The phrase "by himself" (par' heauto), followed by the participle "storing up" or "saving" (thesaupizon), rules out the possibility that this is a reference to an offering taken up in a worship service. The Christian believer was to check his accounts on Sunday and put by at home the money that he wished to give to Paul for the support of the church. When Paul arrived, then the offerings of each individual would be collected.

None of these eight New Testament references to the first day of the week (Sunday), provides any evidence that Jesus or His disciples changed the day of worship from the seventh to the first day. Nor is the first day of the week represented as a time to memorialize the resurrection of Christ. Whatever  significance was given to Sunday in the later history of the church, it had no basis in the teaching or practice of Jesus and His apostles and is not sanctioned in Scripture. Jesus instructed His disciples to observe the Sabbath after His death and Jesus and the apostles kept the seventh-day Sabbath and instructed others to do likewise, so it wasn't changed by them. The record of the book of Acts establishes that the apostles consistently kept the Sabbath day as a time for worship and fellowship. So the origin of the change to Sunday worship is from another source.. it never was sanctioned in any way in scripture.
Title: Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
Post by: DaveW on Wed May 22, 2013 - 06:05:44
While what you say is true; there is also not one word forbidding using the first day of the week as a day of worship (or the 3rd or the 5th for that matter)

So unless you are using a seventh day version of the Church of Christ's CENI hermenutic where scriptural silence = scriptural prohibition; I would submit that trying convince and strong arm the Sunday folk into believing they are sinning is wrong.

As to the Acts 20 passage, what was being celebrated there was Havdalah. (separation) It marks the change from Sabbath to the work week. It was a popular gathering in the first century Messianic Jewish congregations.
Title: Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
Post by: winsome on Wed May 22, 2013 - 07:42:54
Jesus instructed His disciples to observe the Sabbath after His death

The record of the book of Acts establishes that the apostles consistently kept the Sabbath day as a time for worship and fellowship.

Please  provide evidence for these two statements.


Paul himself did not tell anyone to keep the Sabbath. It seemed to be a matter of indifference to him:

"Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day—things which are a mere shadow of what is to come, but the substance belongs to Christ." (Col 2:17-19).

Note that he says “Therefore let no one pass judgment on you”

He also says:
"For one person considers one day more important than another, while another person considers all days alike. Let everyone be fully persuaded in his own mind. Whoever observes the day observes it to the Lord" (Rom. 14:5–6).

Note also his final comment "Whoever observes the day [whichever he chooses] observes it to the Lord". It is not about a Jewish Law but about Jesus.
Title: Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
Post by: MeMyself on Wed May 22, 2013 - 08:13:42
While what you say is true; there is also not one word forbidding using the first day of the week as a day of worship (or the 3rd or the 5th for that matter)

So unless you are using a seventh day version of the Church of Christ's CENI hermenutic where scriptural silence = scriptural prohibition; I would submit that trying convince and strong arm the Sunday folk into believing they are sinning is wrong.

As to the Acts 20 passage, what was being celebrated there was Havdalah. (separation) It marks the change from Sabbath to the work week. It was a popular gathering in the first century Messianic Jewish congregations.

 ::smile::

Title: Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
Post by: winsome on Wed May 22, 2013 - 10:47:16
While what you say is true; there is also not one word forbidding using the first day of the week as a day of worship (or the 3rd or the 5th for that matter)

So unless you are using a seventh day version of the Church of Christ's CENI hermenutic where scriptural silence = scriptural prohibition; I would submit that trying convince and strong arm the Sunday folk into believing they are sinning is wrong.


Also I think there is nothing in scripture commanding worship on the Sabbath (at least in the Pentateuch).

There is a lot about rest and two mentions that it is the sign of the Covenant, but nothing that I can find about worshipping on the Sabbbath.
Title: Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
Post by: DaveW on Wed May 22, 2013 - 12:07:14
Quote
Also I think there is nothing in scripture commanding worship on the Sabbath (at least in the Pentateuch).

Actually there is.  Where the Sabbath is commanded along with the other Holy days, the text requires a SACRED ASSEMBLY.  Lev 23.3 That implies a worship assembly.  There are other passages where it delineates the sacrifices on the sabbath - a specific act of worship. Num 28:9-10
Title: Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
Post by: Jaime on Wed May 22, 2013 - 12:32:56

As to the Acts 20 passage, what was being celebrated there was Havdalah. (separation) It marks the change from Sabbath to the work week. It was a popular gathering in the first century Messianic Jewish congregations.

I agree, and definitely NOT a proof text of Sunday worship as I was taught in the cofc, and most of here was taught in whatever church we attend.
Title: Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
Post by: DaveW on Thu May 23, 2013 - 10:59:35
As to the Acts 20 passage, what was being celebrated there was Havdalah. (separation) It marks the change from Sabbath to the work week. It was a popular gathering in the first century Messianic Jewish congregations.
I agree, and definitely NOT a proof text of Sunday worship as I was taught in the cofc, and most of here was taught in whatever church we attend.

So I wonder why they never took the "preached until midnight" as an "approved example?"
Title: Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
Post by: Amo on Fri May 24, 2013 - 10:14:08
Quote
While what you say is true; there is also not one word forbidding using the first day of the week as a day of worship (or the 3rd or the 5th for that matter)

So unless you are using a seventh day version of the Church of Christ's CENI hermenutic where scriptural silence = scriptural prohibition; I would submit that trying convince and strong arm the Sunday folk into believing they are sinning is wrong.

As to the Acts 20 passage, what was being celebrated there was Havdalah. (separation) It marks the change from Sabbath to the work week. It was a popular gathering in the first century Messianic Jewish congregations.

The following definitions are from the Merriam-Webster Dictionary -

Main Entry:con£vince
Pronunciation:k*n-*vin(t)s
Function:transitive verb
Inflected Form:con£vinced ; con£vinc£ing
Etymology:Latin convincere to refute, convict, prove, from com- + vincere to conquer — more at  VICTOR
Date:1530

1 obsolete    a : to overcome by argument  b : OVERPOWER, OVERCOME
2 obsolete   : DEMONSTRATE, PROVE
3 : to bring (as by argument) to belief, consent, or a course of action  : PERSUADE  *convinced himself that she was all right — William Faulkner*  *something I could never convince him to read — John Lahr*
  –con£vinc£er noun 

Main Entry:1strong*arm
Pronunciation:*str**-**rm
Function:adjective
Date:1897

 : having or using undue force


Main Entry:2strong*arm
Function:transitive verb
Date:1903

1 a : to use force on  : ASSAULT  b : BULLY, INTIMIDATE
2 : to rob by force

Convincing and strong-arming are two totally different things. All true Christian Sabbath keepers should certainly try to convince others of this biblical truth. This of course will include showing the difference between the Divine authority behind the seventh day Sabbath, and the human traditional only authority behind Sunday sacredness.

On the other hand, they would be wrong to try and strong-arm the issue. This methodology is, has, and will continue to be used by Sunday observers not Sabbath observers. Sunday keepers have continually used man made laws to force their day of worship upon all, this is strong-arming. Sabbath keepers call for action based upon faith in God's word. Sunday keepers end up calling for action through man made laws, because they have not the word of God to back them up. Thus they nullify the commandment of God, in order to establish the tradition of man. Our Lord and Savior addressed this issue while here as one of us.

1 Then came together unto him the Pharisees, and certain of the scribes, which came from Jerusalem. 2 And when they saw some of his disciples eat bread with defiled, that is to say, with unwashen, hands, they found fault. 3 For the Pharisees, and all the Jews, except they wash their hands oft, eat not, holding the tradition of the elders. 4 And when they come from the market, except they wash, they eat not. And many other things there be, which they have received to hold, as the washing of cups, and pots, brasen vessels, and of tables. 5 Then the Pharisees and scribes asked him, Why walk not thy disciples according to the tradition of the elders, but eat bread with unwashen hands? 6 He answered and said unto them, Well hath Esaias prophesied of you hypocrites, as it is written, This people honoureth me with their lips, but their heart is far from me. 7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men. 8 For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do. 9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition. 10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death: 11 But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free. 12 And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother; 13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye. Mark 7:1-13 (KJV)

Paul addresses the same.

8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. 9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. 10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power: Col 2:8-10 (KJV)

Tell me Dave, is disobeying one of the commandments of God, especially one you are aware of, sin or not? Or do you suggest that only Jews can sin? What does the following scripture mean to you? Who was John addressing, do you suggest it was just the Jews?

4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. 5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin. 1 John 3:4-5 (KJV)

Title: Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
Post by: DaveW on Fri May 24, 2013 - 11:45:21
I keep a Saturday Sabbath, but as a gentile I am not specifically required to do so. (except I am in the Jewish community via the Messianic movement and the "same Torah" applies to me)

Saturday sabbath is ONLY biblically required for Jews.  Other than those who live amongst the Jews, you cannot find one verse that says otherwise.
Title: Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
Post by: Lively Stone on Fri May 24, 2013 - 13:55:03
I keep a Saturday Sabbath, but as a gentile I am not specifically required to do so. (except I am in the Jewish community via the Messianic movement and the "same Torah" applies to me)

Saturday sabbath is ONLY biblically required for Jews.  Other than those who live amongst the Jews, you cannot find one verse that says otherwise.

I don't believe that a Saturday Sabbath is even biblically required of Christian Jews, of which I know several.
Title: Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
Post by: Amo on Sat May 25, 2013 - 17:51:50
Quote
I keep a Saturday Sabbath, but as a gentile I am not specifically required to do so. (except I am in the Jewish community via the Messianic movement and the "same Torah" applies to me)

Saturday sabbath is ONLY biblically required for Jews.  Other than those who live amongst the Jews, you cannot find one verse that says otherwise.

Apart from Jesus Christ, there would be no such thing as a Jew. He created the world and all things in it, after which He established and sanctified the seventh day Sabbath by the power of His own word. All of this long before there ever was a Jew.

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. ............................................ .
14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. John 1:1-3&14(KJV)

15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: 16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: 17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. 18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. Col 1:15-18 (KJV)

1 Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them. 2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made. 3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made. Gen 2:1-3 (KJV)

It was Christ Himself that created the world and established the seventh day Sabbath 2000 years before there ever was a Jew. He called Abraham out from his own people. Abraham’s child of promise was a type of Christ.

6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: 7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. 8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed. 9 For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sara shall have a son. Romans 9:6-9 (KJV)

16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ. Gal 3:16 (KJV)

The miracle child Isaac was only a type of the real miracle child Jesus Christ born of God and man to save the world. Both Israel and Christianity, which is the new covenant spiritual Israel, were and are built upon the same, that is Christ Himself. These things are of the Spirit, not the flesh. All true Jews and Christians are of the Spirit, not the flesh. They are one in Christ. Those of a false gospel promote and maintain the divisions of the flesh between Jew and Gentile during the new covenant era.

57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham? 58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. 59 Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by. John 8:57-59 (KJV)

The Jews were going to stone Christ because they knew He applied the name of God who spoke to Moses from the burning bush to Himself.

30 And when forty years were expired, there appeared to him in the wilderness of mount Sina an angel of the Lord in a flame of fire in a bush. 31 When Moses saw it, he wondered at the sight: and as he drew near to behold it, the voice of the Lord came unto him, 32 Saying, I am the God of thy fathers, the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. Then Moses trembled, and durst not behold. 33 Then said the Lord to him, Put off thy shoes from thy feet: for the place where thou standest is holy ground. Acts 7:30-33 (KJV)

The angel of the Lord in the burning bush told Moses that He was the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. That angel was Christ pre incarnate, who appeared to many during the old covenant as the angel of the Lord(Gen 22:11-19, Gen 31:11-13, Exod 3:2-4, Exod 23:20-22, Jdg. 2:1-5, 6:11-24, 13:20-23, Josh 5:13-15, Zec. 3). It was He who lead Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses, and the Children of Israel. Not that the Father was not there also, for where the Father, Son, or Holy Spirit is, they are also, for they are one.

And the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed. 3 And Moses said, I will now turn aside, and see this great sight, why the bush is not burnt. 4 And when the Lord saw that he turned aside to see, God called unto him out of the midst of the bush, and said, Moses, Moses. Ex 3:2-4 (KJV)

The angel of the Lord and God in the above are one and the same, both speaking to Moses out of the midst of the bush.

14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you. 15 And God said moreover unto Moses, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, The Lord God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath sent me unto you: this is my name for ever, and this is my memorial unto all generations. Ex 3:14-15 (KJV)

Again, this is the name which Christ applied to Himself, for He was and is the God of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses, the children of  Israel, and all the sons and daughters of Abraham by faith.

26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise. Gal 3:26-29 (KJV)

Christ is, was, and will be the God of them all, as He is one with the Father and the Spirit. The false gospel you promote maintains the wall of division between them, based upon the flesh, which wall Christ came to abolish. So also does the false gospel of the supposed Gentile “Christians” which back up your false claims, by maintaining the same division. Why do you and those who support your maintenance of this division want to maintain that which Christ came to abolish?

11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; 12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: 13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. 14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; 15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; 16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: 17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh. 18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father. 19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; 20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; 21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: 22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit. Eph 2:11-22 (KJV)

Is it not because you will not submit to the gospel of Jesus Christ in it’s entirety, but wish to maintain a division between yourselves, which is really a division between yourselves and Christ because you will not fully submit to His teachings and purpose? It was Christ who lead the children of Israel through the wilderness and established their nation.

20 Behold, I send an Angel before thee, to keep thee in the way, and to bring thee into the place which I have prepared. 21 Beware of him, and obey his voice, provoke him not; for he will not pardon your transgressions: for my name is in him. 22 But if thou shalt indeed obey his voice, and do all that I speak; then I will be an enemy unto thine enemies, and an adversary unto thine adversaries. 23 For mine Angel shall go before thee, and bring thee in unto the Amorites, and the Hittites, and the Perizzites, and the Canaanites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites: and I will cut them off. 24 Thou shalt not bow down to their gods, nor serve them, nor do after their works: but thou shalt utterly overthrow them, and quite break down their images. 25 And ye shall serve the Lord your God, and he shall bless thy bread, and thy water; and I will take sickness away from the midst of thee. Ex 23:20-25 (KJV)

The Angel above was Christ Himself. God’s name was in Him, and one who obeyed His voice, did that which God spoke. Paul testifies to this fact also, that it was Christ that lead the children of Israel through the wilderness.

1 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; 2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; 3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat; 4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ. 5 But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness. 1 Cor 10:1-5 (KJV)

Every sacrifice made by faith during the old covenant before, during, and after the establishment of the Jewish nation, from that of Abel to the last ones of the Jewish temple, was a type of Christ and Him crucified for the salvation of all humanity. Apart from Him Israel had, and has no reason to exist. No purpose. He was the center of their entire nation. Those Jews who rejected Jesus Christ as their Messiah, and still do today, are none of His. They are not God’s people anymore.

42 Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes? 43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof. 44 And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder. 45 And when the chief priests and Pharisees had heard his parables, they perceived that he spake of them. Matt 21:41-45 (KJV)

Those Jews who rejected Christ, had the kingdom of God taken away from them. They began the division which has espoused a false gospel. True Israel accepted Christ as the predicted Messiah, and were joined by all among the Gentiles who would do the same. They formed the true “Christian” church which is really spiritual Israel. They are converted Jews who have accepted the Messiah of the Jewish nation, who had no other or greater purpose than to bring forth the same for the salvation of all humanity. The Israel of the new covenant is a spiritual nation, not a literal one. In Christ all divisions of the flesh are broken down, but by those who promote a false gospel and thus maintain such divisions.

21 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father. 22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews. 23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. 24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth. John 4:21-24 (KJV)

The new covenant nation of Israel is a spiritual nation, not a literal one. It is composed of those who follow the one who gave Israel it’s entire reason for existence, that is the Lamb of God, where ever He goes. Those Jews who have rejected Him are none of His or His Fathers. They maintain the division which Christ Himself came to abolish.

Those “Christian” Gentiles who will not submit to His teachings and authority above all other, do not follow the Lamb where ever He goes either. They support the division created by the Jews who rejected their Messiah, by maintaining that the Jews who have rejected Christ are still God’s chosen. Thus they also maintain the division by teaching that the law of God and the Sabbath commandment are only for the Jews, against the teachings of Christ Himself. They support each other in a false gospel, neither submitting to the authority of Christ who is God, and the only reason they even exist.

By contrast, true spiritual Jews who are true Christian followers of Christ, accept Christ as the Messiah, and the authority of His teachings as the one who created and sustains all things. God’s true nation being composed of Jews and Gentiles who no longer support the divisions of humanity, which are themselves caused by the division of humanity from God. Which very things Christ came to abolish.

1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads. 2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps: 3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth. 4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb. 5 And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God. 6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people, 7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters. 8 And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication. 9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, 10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: 11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name. 12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus. Rev 14:1-12 (KJV)

Who are those who follow “the Lamb whithersoever he goeth”? Are they not the saints as the above scriptures testify? Who are the saints? Are they not those who “keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus” as the above scriptures testify? Of course they are, the scriptures do not lie. If what you believe contradicts them, then you believe a lie. Is not Christ all in all? Is He not the beginning and the end, the Alpha and Omega? Is there or will there be anything or anyone apart from Him in the end? No there will not. Why therefore will you reject His teachings in favor of those of another?

7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen. 8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty. Rev 1:7-8 (KJV)

11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea. Rev 1:11 (KJV)

5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful. 6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely. 7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. 8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death. Rev 21:5-8 (KJV)

12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. 13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. 14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. 15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie. 16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star. Rev 22:12-16 (KJV)

Who is the dragon or devil mad at in this world? Is it not those who keep the commandments of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ? Yes it is.

15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood. 16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth. 17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. Rev 12:15-17 (KJV)

Why will you argue with scripture Dave? Why will you tell those who follow Jesus Christ that they do not have to keep the commandments of God, against the testimony of Jesus Christ Himself? Do you not understand that the fourth commandment is included in every admonition of scripture to keep the commandments of God?

1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: 2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world. 3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. 4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him. 6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked. 1 John 2:1-6 (KJV)

Why do you argue with the living testimony of Jesus Christ Himself, who kept all the commandments of God? You know that I can share a lot more New Testament scripture admonishing all to keep the commandments of God, so why will you argue with the same? Did Christ keep the Sabbath or not? Of course he did. Should we walk as He walked as the above scriptures admonish or not?

You contend that no one but the Jews are ever admonished to keep the seventh day in scripture, though you know the Sabbath was instituted 2000 years before there even was a Jew. I’m quite sure I have shared with you in the past that scripture also points out that the seventh day Sabbath will be kept in heaven. This is not to mention the fact that it was the rejection of Christ Himself and His followers by the majority of the Jews, that lead to the adoption of the name Christian for Jesus’ followers. For Christ Himself was not only a Jew, but in fact the creator and sustainer of the Jewish nation. It was the apostate Jew’s rejection of Him, which caused the split which lead to another name being applied to those Jews and others which accepted Christ as the Messiah. If they had not done so, all followers of Christ today would be converted Jews, seeing that Christ was a Jew, and the Messiah of the Jews. Jews themselves caused the split, and the false gospel resulting from the same. One gospel for Jews, and another for Gentiles. Yet the scriptures themselves testify that the seventh day Sabbath was not just of the Jews, but all humanity, and especially those converted during the new covenant.

1 Thus saith the Lord, Keep ye judgment, and do justice: for my salvation is near to come, and my righteousness to be revealed. 2 Blessed is the man that doeth this, and the son of man that layeth hold on it; that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and keepeth his hand from doing any evil. 3 Neither let the son of the stranger, that hath joined himself to the Lord, speak, saying, The Lord hath utterly separated me from his people: neither let the eunuch say, Behold, I am a dry tree. 4 For thus saith the Lord unto the eunuchs that keep my sabbaths, and choose the things that please me, and take hold of my covenant; 5 Even unto them will I give in mine house and within my walls a place and a name better than of sons and of daughters: I will give them an everlasting name, that shall not be cut off. 6 Also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to the Lord, to serve him, and to love the name of the Lord, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant; 7 Even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted upon mine altar; for mine house shall be called an house of prayer for all people. 8 The Lord GOD which gathereth the outcasts of Israel saith, Yet will I gather others to him, beside those that are gathered unto him. Isaiah 56:1-8 (KJV)

Will you deny that the above is referring to and definitely includes the Gentiles that join themselves to the Lord through Christ His Son? No other book of the old testament speaks so much about the salvation of the Gentiles, and the above reference is obviously concerning their observance of God’s seventh day Sabbath when they have joined themselves to Him. Why will you continue to argue with the truth, telling those Gentiles who have joined themselves to God through our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, that they need not keep the commandments of God. This lie was never taught by our Lord and Savior or any of His Apostles.

10 And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious. 11 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea. 12 And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth. Isaiah 11:10-12 (KJV)

1 Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles. 2 He shall not cry, nor lift up, nor cause his voice to be heard in the street. 3 A bruised reed shall he not break, and the smoking flax shall he not quench: he shall bring forth judgment unto truth. 4 He shall not fail nor be discouraged, till he have set judgment in the earth: and the isles shall wait for his law. 5 Thus saith God the Lord, he that created the heavens, and stretched them out; he that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it; he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein: 6 I the Lord have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles; 7 To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house. 8 I am the Lord: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images. 9 Behold, the former things are come to pass, and new things do I declare: before they spring forth I tell you of them. Isaiah 42:1-9 (KJV)

6 And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth. 7 Thus saith the Lord, the Redeemer of Israel, and his Holy One, to him whom man despiseth, to him whom the nation abhorreth, to a servant of rulers, Kings shall see and arise, princes also shall worship, because of the Lord that is faithful, and the Holy One of Israel, and he shall choose thee. 8 Thus saith the Lord, In an acceptable time have I heard thee, and in a day of salvation have I helped thee: and I will preserve thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, to establish the earth, to cause to inherit the desolate heritages; 9 That thou mayest say to the prisoners, Go forth; to them that are in darkness, Shew yourselves. Isaiah 49:6-9 (KJV)

22 Thus saith the Lord GOD, Behold, I will lift up mine hand to the Gentiles, and set up my standard to the people: and they shall bring thy sons in their arms, and thy daughters shall be carried upon their shoulders. 23 And kings shall be thy nursing fathers, and their queens thy nursing mothers: they shall bow down to thee with their face toward the earth, and lick up the dust of thy feet; and thou shalt know that I am the Lord: for they shall not be ashamed that wait for me. Isaiah 49:22-23 (KJV)

1 Arise, shine; for thy light is come, and the glory of the Lord is risen upon thee. 2 For, behold, the darkness shall cover the earth, and gross darkness the people: but the Lord shall arise upon thee, and his glory shall be seen upon thee. 3 And the Gentiles shall come to thy light, and kings to the brightness of thy rising. 4 Lift up thine eyes round about, and see: all they gather themselves together, they come to thee: thy sons shall come from far, and thy daughters shall be nursed at thy side. 5 Then thou shalt see, and flow together, and thine heart shall fear, and be enlarged; because the abundance of the sea shall be converted unto thee, the forces of the Gentiles shall come unto thee. Isaiah 60:1-5 (KJV)

1 For Zion's sake will I not hold my peace, and for Jerusalem's sake I will not rest, until the righteousness thereof go forth as brightness, and the salvation thereof as a lamp that burneth. 2 And the Gentiles shall see thy righteousness, and all kings thy glory: and thou shalt be called by a new name, which the mouth of the Lord shall name. Isaiah 62:1-2 (KJV)

19 And I will set a sign among them, and I will send those that escape of them unto the nations, to Tarshish, Pul, and Lud, that draw the bow, to Tubal, and Javan, to the isles afar off, that have not heard my fame, neither have seen my glory; and they shall declare my glory among the Gentiles. 20 And they shall bring all your brethren for an offering unto the Lord out of all nations upon horses, and in chariots, and in litters, and upon mules, and upon swift beasts, to my holy mountain Jerusalem, saith the Lord, as the children of Israel bring an offering in a clean vessel into the house of the Lord. 21 And I will also take of them for priests and for Levites, saith the Lord. 22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the Lord, so shall your seed and your name remain. 23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the Lord. 24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh. Isaiah 66:19-24 (KJV)

Why do you discourage the Gentiles who have joined themselves to the Lord through His Son Jesus Christ, from keeping His Sabbaths? They have been admonished to keep His commandments here and now, and will do so also in heaven, including the fourth commandment.

15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep. 16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd. 17 Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again. 18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father. John 10:15-18 (KJV)

There is one fold, and one shepherd Jesus Christ, not two. Not one gospel and one shepherd for the Jews, and another gospel and shepherd for the Gentiles. Those who preach such, preach a false gospel. Those who hear Christ’s voice, and follow are His true flock.

25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me. 26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. 27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: 28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. 29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. 30 I and my Father are one. 31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him. 32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me? 33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God. John 10:25-33 (KJV)

Christ and the Father are one. Those who hear Christ’s voice and follow Him, they are the true fold. Christ never taught that any of the commandments could be done away with. As already pointed out, He taught the exact opposite.

15 If ye love me, keep my commandments. 16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; 17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. 18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you. 19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also. 20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you. 21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him. John 14:15-21 (KJV)

1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman. 2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit. 3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you. 4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. 5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. 6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. 7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you. 8 Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples. 9 As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love. 10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love. John 15:1-10 (KJV)

How say you brother, that Christ taught any that they could be of another fold, and need not keep the commandments of God, as Christ kept them also? From where do you derive such authority above and in contradiction to the words spoken by Jesus Christ? Show us where the scriptures teach that any can ignore any one of the commandments of God with impunity, and I will show you where you have twisted the scriptures to your own ends.

17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. 19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven. Matt 5:17-20 (KJV)
Title: Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
Post by: current occupant on Sun May 26, 2013 - 10:04:34
Nowhere in the scriptures do you find one word which sanctions Sunday worship, you can search in the Old as well as the New Testament there is nothing. The word Sunday itself is not found in the Bible, you only see the number of the days so that it is clear what day is which. In the New Testament the first day of the week is mentioned eight times. In none of the eight instances is the first day said to be a day of worship, never is it said to be the Christian substitute for Sabbath, and neither do the texts suggest that the first day of the week should be regarded as a memorial of Christ's resurrection. Lets look in this study by Kenneth Strand, 'The Sabbath in Scripture and History'  at each of the eight New Testament passages that mention the first day of the week.

snip.................snip.......


None of these eight New Testament references to the first day of the week (Sunday), provides any evidence that Jesus or His disciples changed the day of worship from the seventh to the first day. Nor is the first day of the week represented as a time to memorialize the resurrection of Christ. Whatever  significance was given to Sunday in the later history of the church, it had no basis in the teaching or practice of Jesus and His apostles and is not sanctioned in Scripture. Jesus instructed His disciples to observe the Sabbath after His death and Jesus and the apostles kept the seventh-day Sabbath and instructed others to do likewise, so it wasn't changed by them. The record of the book of Acts establishes that the apostles consistently kept the Sabbath day as a time for worship and fellowship. So the origin of the change to Sunday worship is from another source.. it never was sanctioned in any way in scripture.

There is not one word in the Bible that sanctions Saturday worship either. 

To assume either requires the person to make a leap of logic and believe that the pagan Julian calendar is also Gods calendar and to disbelieve the instruction of Scripture that we are not to judge others based of food, drink or observance of certain days
Title: Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
Post by: DaveW on Sun May 26, 2013 - 21:32:57
There is not one word in the Bible that sanctions Saturday worship either. 

To assume either requires the person to make a leap of logic and believe that the pagan Julian calendar is also Gods calendar

Actually a "sacred assembly" and certain unique animal sacrifices were required on the sabbath. (first few verses of Lev 23 and parts of Parshah Pinchas. (Numbers 25:10-30:1)

And you forget the Julian calendar originally had a 8 day week, not a 7 day week as we have.

Quote
and to disbelieve the instruction of Scripture that we are not to judge others based of food, drink or observance of certain days
Written to put to rest the dispute between Jews keeping a Saturday sabbath  and dietary regulations as commanded and Gentile believers who did not have to.
Title: Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
Post by: Hobie on Sat Oct 07, 2017 - 05:55:28
While what you say is true; there is also not one word forbidding using the first day of the week as a day of worship (or the 3rd or the 5th for that matter)

So unless you are using a seventh day version of the Church of Christ's CENI hermenutic where scriptural silence = scriptural prohibition; I would submit that trying convince and strong arm the Sunday folk into believing they are sinning is wrong.

As to the Acts 20 passage, what was being celebrated there was Havdalah. (separation) It marks the change from Sabbath to the work week. It was a popular gathering in the first century Messianic Jewish congregations.
The children of Israel turned to other worship, was it forbidden...

Exodus 32:8

They have turned aside quickly out of the way which I commanded them: they have made them a molten calf, and have worshipped it, and have sacrificed thereunto, and said, These be thy gods, O Israel, which have brought thee up out of the land of Egypt.

Yet, to worship other gods such as the Molten Calf of Egypt, or the Sun gods etc... was a abomination, and this is were the worship of pagan day of the sun is from...
Title: Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
Post by: KiwiChristian on Sat Oct 07, 2017 - 12:57:01
What day of the week did the apostles meet to break bread, etc.?
Title: Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
Post by: Amo on Sat Oct 07, 2017 - 18:07:47
What day of the week did the apostles meet to break bread, etc.?

Every day.

Acts 2:40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation. 41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls. 42 And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers. 43 And fear came upon every soul: and many wonders and signs were done by the apostles. 44 And all that believed were together, and had all things common; 45 And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need. 46 And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart, 47 Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.
Title: Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
Post by: KiwiChristian on Sat Oct 07, 2017 - 21:38:59
Every day.

Acts 2:40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation. 41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls. 42 And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers. 43 And fear came upon every soul: and many wonders and signs were done by the apostles. 44 And all that believed were together, and had all things common; 45 And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need. 46 And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart, 47 Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.

Nope. I see daily TEMPLE, not daily breaking of bread.

Maybe i should of been more specific.

Acts 20:7 proves weekly communion on Sunday (1st Day)

1 Corinthians 16:1-2 proves weekly church collection on Sunday (1st Day)

Ps 118:22-26 actually prophecies the first day of the week! This messianic prophecy is about the new day God would make when Jesus rose from the dead: Sunday!

The first day of the week is a weekly memorial of Jesus' Resurrection While the Lord's Supper is a memorial of the Lord's death, the first day of the week is the weekly memorial of Christ's resurrection! We are told, not to remember Christ's birth on Dec 25, but his death every Sunday via Communion. We are told, not to remember Christ's resurrection once a year at "Easter", but every Sunday, a the anniversary of his resurrection!

The Pentecost of Acts 2:1 fell on a Sunday (1st day)

Sunday is the weekly memorial of the new creation and our deliverance from sin. Athanasius wrote in 345 AD "The Sabbath was the end of the first creation, the Lord's day was the beginning of the second, in which he renewed and restored the old in the same way as he prescribed that they should formerly observe the Sabbath as a memorial of the end of the first things, so we honor the Lord's day as being the memorial of the new creation" (Athanasius, On Sabbath and Circumcision 3).

History proves Christians always met on 1st Day and not the Sabbath, right back to the apostolic age. (33 AD) What is even more powerful is that early Christians called the first day, the Lord's Day because it was the day Jesus rose from the dead!

Now, if anyone CHANGED it, please PROVE it. WHO and WHEN?
Title: Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
Post by: RB on Sun Oct 08, 2017 - 04:01:00
We are Gentile Christians under the New Testament following Jesus Christ according to the epistles of His apostles. Moses is nothing in comparison to Him. See Hebrews three~ The Law is nothing in comparison to grace. See Galatians three~Ceremonial works are nothing in comparison to faith. See Philippians three~The Jewish Sabbath is nothing in comparison to the Lord's Day. See Revelation one.

The Sabbath was a special day to Israel only. This point is very important but ignored or rejected by Sabbatarians. The Sabbath was never for Gentiles or Christians. It was only and specifically His special sign to Israel as His covenant nation under the O.T. (See Exodus 31:12-18; Deuteronomy 5:15; Nehemiah 9:13-14; Ezekiel 20:12,20).

These verses are very plain. Read them! Believe them! Obey them! Gentile Christians under the N.T. have no obligation to keep Israel's O.T. Sabbath laws. God never charged anyone else at any other time to keep the seventh day for any reason. No one observed the Sabbath before Moses came down from Mt. Sinai.

Christians follow and glorify the Lord Jesus Christ~not Moses, not Israel, not the Law, not the Jewish Sabbath. Exalting these pitiful substitutes that passed away long ago rejects and dishonors Jesus Christ. It makes no difference if you accept this or not, but one DOES reject Christ for the weak and beggarly elements of Moses' law.

Sunday, the Lord's Day, is a special weekly privilege to rest IN Christ and to glorify Jesus Christ on the day He ordained for worship. Christians always take N.T. ordinances and tradition over O.T. ceremonial or national laws.

Seventh-Day Adventists and their imitators glorify Saturday. They exalt Moses and the O.T. over Jesus and Paul and the N.T. They choose shadows over reality … law over grace … carnal ordinances over spiritual … bondage over liberty. They exalt a calendar day over the finished work of Christ. They reject the Lord's spiritual fulfillment and abolition of the Sabbath for a worldly yoke of bondage. It makes no difference if they believe what I'm saying or not, but it is STILL the truth.

Paul's greatest burden was fighting such Jewish legalists. False teachers followed him, creeping into churches and corrupting Gentile believers with O.T. superstition about circumcision, dietary laws, and the Sabbath. Most of Galatians and Hebrews, and much of Romans, Ephesians, Philippians, and Colossians, were written to oppose them. These heretics chose Moses and meats over Jesus and His gospel. Pitiful indeed and their children STILL DO THE SAME.

Rejecting celebration of the resurrected Lord Jesus Christ and His day for the beggarly bondage of the Jewish Sabbath is heresy and superstition. Christians never assembled as Christians on Saturday after resurrection morning. The Lord of the Sabbath had abolished it at His resurrection, after nailing that carnal and worldly ordinance to His cross, when He became the reality and fulfillment of its shadow.

It was a new day …. literally, the first day of the week … spiritually, the gospel Day called Today … covenantally, the New Testament of the Lord Jesus Christ.

The issue is simple. What is the N.T. day for religious worship? Is it Saturday, a carnal ordinance Moses brought down from Mt. Sinai and imposed on Israel until Jesus and His apostles? Or is it Sunday, the day on which Jesus Christ appeared to His assembled apostles and blessed them, who all kept that day from then on?

Four simple, conclusive passages~Colosians  2:16-17; Galatians 4:9-11; Ist Corinthians 16:1-2; Acts 20:6-7~are more than enough for noble readers (Acts 17:11), but most likely not if one is blinded by their precious works of adding to the word of God!

We ask those who love the Jesus Christ, for them to come over into the New Testament and join us Gentile Christians following the Lord Jesus Christ according to the authoritative epistles of His apostles. Leave Moses, Mt. Sinai, and the ancient nation of Israel where they belong~under the Old Testament. We sincerely wish you would consider the glory of Christ OVER Moses' short-lived glory! See 2nd Corinthians 3
Title: Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
Post by: 4WD on Sun Oct 08, 2017 - 06:04:38
In truth, there is nothing in the NT about gathering together on any given day to worship.  We read that they met together to break bread, for fellowship, for teaching, and for putting aside money offerings.  Worship is not something reserved for a special day of the week or a special time that day.  I think that it is a modern, or maybe not so modern, misunderstanding to think that Sunday is a day of "worship".  Every day should be a day of worship. Sunday should be a day for Christians to come together to learn, to teach, to encourage others, to be encouraged. Even in the OT, the Sabbath was not set aside as a day of worship, but rather as a day of rest.
Title: Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
Post by: RB on Sun Oct 08, 2017 - 06:48:58
In truth, there is nothing in the NT about gathering together on any given day to worship.  We read that they met together to break bread, for fellowship, for teaching, and for putting aside money offerings.  Worship is not something reserved for a special day of the week or a special time that day.  I think that it is a modern, or maybe not so modern, misunderstanding to think that Sunday is a day of "worship".  Every day should be a day of worship. Sunday should be a day for Christians to come together to learn, to teach, to encourage others, to be encouraged. Even in the OT, the Sabbath was not set aside as a day of worship, but rather as a day of rest.
Agreed
Title: Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
Post by: Amo on Sun Oct 08, 2017 - 09:47:12
We are Gentile Christians under the New Testament following Jesus Christ according to the epistles of His apostles. Moses is nothing in comparison to Him. See Hebrews three~ The Law is nothing in comparison to grace. See Galatians three~Ceremonial works are nothing in comparison to faith. See Philippians three~The Jewish Sabbath is nothing in comparison to the Lord's Day. See Revelation one.

The Sabbath was a special day to Israel only. This point is very important but ignored or rejected by Sabbatarians. The Sabbath was never for Gentiles or Christians. It was only and specifically His special sign to Israel as His covenant nation under the O.T. (See Exodus 31:12-18; Deuteronomy 5:15; Nehemiah 9:13-14; Ezekiel 20:12,20).

These verses are very plain. Read them! Believe them! Obey them! Gentile Christians under the N.T. have no obligation to keep Israel's O.T. Sabbath laws. God never charged anyone else at any other time to keep the seventh day for any reason. No one observed the Sabbath before Moses came down from Mt. Sinai.

Christians follow and glorify the Lord Jesus Christ~not Moses, not Israel, not the Law, not the Jewish Sabbath. Exalting these pitiful substitutes that passed away long ago rejects and dishonors Jesus Christ. It makes no difference if you accept this or not, but one DOES reject Christ for the weak and beggarly elements of Moses' law.

Sunday, the Lord's Day, is a special weekly privilege to rest IN Christ and to glorify Jesus Christ on the day He ordained for worship. Christians always take N.T. ordinances and tradition over O.T. ceremonial or national laws.

Seventh-Day Adventists and their imitators glorify Saturday. They exalt Moses and the O.T. over Jesus and Paul and the N.T. They choose shadows over reality … law over grace … carnal ordinances over spiritual … bondage over liberty. They exalt a calendar day over the finished work of Christ. They reject the Lord's spiritual fulfillment and abolition of the Sabbath for a worldly yoke of bondage. It makes no difference if they believe what I'm saying or not, but it is STILL the truth.

Paul's greatest burden was fighting such Jewish legalists. False teachers followed him, creeping into churches and corrupting Gentile believers with O.T. superstition about circumcision, dietary laws, and the Sabbath. Most of Galatians and Hebrews, and much of Romans, Ephesians, Philippians, and Colossians, were written to oppose them. These heretics chose Moses and meats over Jesus and His gospel. Pitiful indeed and their children STILL DO THE SAME.

Rejecting celebration of the resurrected Lord Jesus Christ and His day for the beggarly bondage of the Jewish Sabbath is heresy and superstition. Christians never assembled as Christians on Saturday after resurrection morning. The Lord of the Sabbath had abolished it at His resurrection, after nailing that carnal and worldly ordinance to His cross, when He became the reality and fulfillment of its shadow.

It was a new day …. literally, the first day of the week … spiritually, the gospel Day called Today … covenantally, the New Testament of the Lord Jesus Christ.

The issue is simple. What is the N.T. day for religious worship? Is it Saturday, a carnal ordinance Moses brought down from Mt. Sinai and imposed on Israel until Jesus and His apostles? Or is it Sunday, the day on which Jesus Christ appeared to His assembled apostles and blessed them, who all kept that day from then on?

Four simple, conclusive passages~Colosians  2:16-17; Galatians 4:9-11; Ist Corinthians 16:1-2; Acts 20:6-7~are more than enough for noble readers (Acts 17:11), but most likely not if one is blinded by their precious works of adding to the word of God!

We ask those who love the Jesus Christ, for them to come over into the New Testament and join us Gentile Christians following the Lord Jesus Christ according to the authoritative epistles of His apostles. Leave Moses, Mt. Sinai, and the ancient nation of Israel where they belong~under the Old Testament. We sincerely wish you would consider the glory of Christ OVER Moses' short-lived glory! See 2nd Corinthians 3

Thank you for so clearly and concisely declaring your position. One of us is a liar, and will not walk through the gates into heaven exactly for what we teach and preach concerning this subject. May God judge righteously between us, as He always does.

Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Rev 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.


You believe the commandments above are some changed version of Christ's commandments, I believe they are the ten commandments of God, which are Christ's commandments who is God. May Christ judge between us righteously as He always does when we stand before the throne of God.

You believe I am a legalist pushing salvation through works because I believe the saved should keep the commandments of God. I believe you are part of the dragons host whom he sends to defy and eventually persecute those who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. May the Father and Son judge between us righteously as they always do on that great day.

I hope you won't mind observing the seventh day Sabbath again in heaven, if it turns out you were right, since the scriptures declare we will do so when there.

Isa 66:22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the Lord, so shall your seed and your name remain. 23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the Lord. 24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

Title: Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
Post by: Amo on Sun Oct 08, 2017 - 10:00:23
Nope. I see daily TEMPLE, not daily breaking of bread.

Maybe i should of been more specific.

Acts 20:7 proves weekly communion on Sunday (1st Day)

1 Corinthians 16:1-2 proves weekly church collection on Sunday (1st Day)

Ps 118:22-26 actually prophecies the first day of the week! This messianic prophecy is about the new day God would make when Jesus rose from the dead: Sunday!

The first day of the week is a weekly memorial of Jesus' Resurrection While the Lord's Supper is a memorial of the Lord's death, the first day of the week is the weekly memorial of Christ's resurrection! We are told, not to remember Christ's birth on Dec 25, but his death every Sunday via Communion. We are told, not to remember Christ's resurrection once a year at "Easter", but every Sunday, a the anniversary of his resurrection!

The Pentecost of Acts 2:1 fell on a Sunday (1st day)

Sunday is the weekly memorial of the new creation and our deliverance from sin. Athanasius wrote in 345 AD "The Sabbath was the end of the first creation, the Lord's day was the beginning of the second, in which he renewed and restored the old in the same way as he prescribed that they should formerly observe the Sabbath as a memorial of the end of the first things, so we honor the Lord's day as being the memorial of the new creation" (Athanasius, On Sabbath and Circumcision 3).

History proves Christians always met on 1st Day and not the Sabbath, right back to the apostolic age. (33 AD) What is even more powerful is that early Christians called the first day, the Lord's Day because it was the day Jesus rose from the dead!

Now, if anyone CHANGED it, please PROVE it. WHO and WHEN?

We can of course all choose to see what we wish to see. Denying history that doesn't support what we want to believe, does not make it go away anywhere but in our own heads. The threads on this SDA board are filled with historical information and quotes which completely contradict your above claim, you simply choose to ignore them and deny their existence. You also claim that completely inconclusive statements about the first day of the week, which say nothing about a change in the day of worship or a new one being established, prove that this is so. You do this while you ignore the fact that Christ and the apostles absolutely did not only keep the sabbath, but taught and defended its proper observance. You ignore all accounts of the same and deny they mean anything, but turn vague statements about the first day of the week into absolute proof that Sunday is a scripturally established new day of worship which replaces the seventh day Sabbath of the fourth commandment of God. Making the following words of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ of none effect.

Mt 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. 19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Please do tell us, what Jesus meant by the above, if in fact He knew and intended to change the fourth commandment of God in his death and resurrection.
Title: Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
Post by: Amo on Sun Oct 08, 2017 - 10:07:20
In truth, there is nothing in the NT about gathering together on any given day to worship.  We read that they met together to break bread, for fellowship, for teaching, and for putting aside money offerings.  Worship is not something reserved for a special day of the week or a special time that day.  I think that it is a modern, or maybe not so modern, misunderstanding to think that Sunday is a day of "worship".  Every day should be a day of worship. Sunday should be a day for Christians to come together to learn, to teach, to encourage others, to be encouraged. Even in the OT, the Sabbath was not set aside as a day of worship, but rather as a day of rest.

The entire day was in commemoration of God's creation of heaven and earth. Acknowledgment of who He is and who we are in relation to Him. But you don't believe the creation account recorded in the bible do you? Why therefore would you believe in keeping a commandment which itself commemorates that which never really happened? Of course you do not. Do you believe everything established by the word of God during the old covenant is now negated if it is not reestablished in the new covenant? Is this a biblical teaching and the reasoning behind your belief that the fourth commandment no longer applies to God's people? I mean of course, apart from the fact that you do not believe the creation account which the Sabbath itself commemorates.
Title: Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
Post by: Texas Conservative on Sun Oct 08, 2017 - 16:26:11
Thank you for so clearly and concisely declaring your position. One of us is a liar, and will not walk through the gates into heaven exactly for what we teach and preach concerning this subject. May God judge righteously between us, as He always does.

Salvation is in Christ, not a day of worship.  You are in error.
Title: Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
Post by: 4WD on Sun Oct 08, 2017 - 18:43:25
But you don't believe the creation account recorded in the bible do you?
Of course I do.  I just don't believe your account of the meaning.
Title: Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
Post by: KiwiChristian on Sun Oct 08, 2017 - 19:13:24
We can of course all choose to see what we wish to see. Denying history that doesn't support what we want to believe, does not make it go away anywhere but in our own heads. The threads on this SDA board are filled with historical information and quotes which completely contradict your above claim, you simply choose to ignore them and deny their existence. You also claim that completely inconclusive statements about the first day of the week, which say nothing about a change in the day of worship or a new one being established, prove that this is so. You do this while you ignore the fact that Christ and the apostles absolutely did not only keep the sabbath, but taught and defended its proper observance. You ignore all accounts of the same and deny they mean anything, but turn vague statements about the first day of the week into absolute proof that Sunday is a scripturally established new day of worship which replaces the seventh day Sabbath of the fourth commandment of God. Making the following words of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ of none effect.

Mt 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. 19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Please do tell us, what Jesus meant by the above, if in fact He knew and intended to change the fourth commandment of God in his death and resurrection.

No, i will answer you when you have addressed the scriptures and points i raised.
Title: Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
Post by: KiwiChristian on Sun Oct 08, 2017 - 19:24:19
You do this while you ignore the fact that Christ and the apostles absolutely did not only keep the sabbath, but taught and defended its proper observance.

You ignore the fact that Jesus HEALED and did GOOD on the sabbath, thereby NOT keeping it!

BTW: Do YOU turn on a light in your house on saturdays? Do you travel on saturdays? Do you CARRY anything on the sabbath? Do you COOK anything on saturdays? Do you tie your shoelaces on saturdays?

Jesus and the apostles DID go to the temple on the sabbath. I completely agree and this is Biblical.

WHY did they go?

Because THAT'S WHERE THE PEOPLE WERE THAT THEY WERE TRYING TO REACH!

If you want to help alcoholics, you don't go to a juice bar to find them.

The sabbath was the OLD covenant for the JEWS.

I praise the Lord i am not under law but am now under GRACE.

Title: Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
Post by: Jaime on Sun Oct 08, 2017 - 19:31:25
Jesus didn’t break the Sabbath, he properly interpretted what the Jewish leadership had perverted. Re-interpretting the Law was what Jesus was doing in the Sermon on the Mount. “You have heard it said......., but I say to you.........

Now the Jews certainly accused him of breaking the Sabbath. BUT of course he is GOD. He would know what the proper intent was. Plus as we all know, he was teaching them that it was not just the letter of the law, but the spirit of the law. It's not that we shouldn't murder, we should not even harbor anger in our hearts. It's not that just not committing adultery was the line, we should not have lust in our hearts.
Title: Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
Post by: RB on Mon Oct 09, 2017 - 05:38:13
Thank you for so clearly and concisely declaring your position. One of us is a liar,
Well, I would not call you a liar, but without question a confused believer.
Quote from: Amo
One of us is a liar, and will not walk through the gates into heaven exactly for what we teach and preach concerning this subject.
Amo, of course, we both know that heaven has no gates, for the Lamb is the protector of his people who in that world to come there will be NO FEAR of any enemy without, for there will be none.

More than that, Amo, inheriting the new earth is NOT depending on our understanding, or good works, but Jesus' perfect knowledge and obedience, and thank God that this is so, for if it depended on our works and understanding, then NONE would enter into life.
Quote from: Amo
May God judge righteously between us, as He always does.
Sir, I was judged IN CHRIST, and will NOT be judged to see if I enter into life based on my own obedience! Now, that being said, this does not give a believer a right to continue in sin that grace may abound, and neither do we teach that just because we understand the Jewish Sabbath is NOT for us, but for them, yet we DO understand the SIGN of it, that it pointed to OUR REST IN CHRIST that we cease from our OWN WORKS, which you have not yet learned.
Quote from: Amo
Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Rev 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

You believe the commandments above are some changed version of Christ's commandments, I believe they are the ten commandments of God, which are Christ's commandments who is God. May Christ judge between us righteously as He always does when we stand before the throne of God.
Again, a believer's "overall life" is known by living godly, which is an evidence that they HAVE eternal life abiding within them. No, we do not believe God's commandments are changed, yet in the New Testament no where are NT Christians commanded to keep the Jewish Sabbath, no where and neither do we see it practiced by the apostles~time will not allow us to consider this in depth at the moment, but will if you desire to do so.
Quote from: Amo
You believe I am a legalist pushing salvation through works.
You are guilty of both.
Quote from: Amo
because I believe the saved should keep the commandments of God
We DO NOT teach that we have the liberty to live as we please. But, do exalt God's commandments a rule for our life to live by, YET, knowing in our hearts that we fall so short every second that we live in the flesh. We fully understand Romans seven, and the grief of spirit that holy Paul experienced DAILY......which you do not.
Quote from: Amo
I believe you are part of the dragons host whom he sends to defy and eventually persecute those who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
I'm sure you do Amo~that's what pride does for those who think they can keep God's commandments and be rewarded for doing so! Pride also blinds men like you, for you refuse to hear what the law DOES SAY and which Paul enlarged upon in Galatians three, where he said this:
Quote from: Moses and Paul
Galatians 3:10-13~"For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them. But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith. And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them. Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:"
Sir, ONCE a man thinks that he will enter into life by keeping God's commandments, then he should UNDERSTAND which you do not, that one's works MUST BE PERFECT in thought, word, and deed, FROM conception to his death, or else he is cursed of God~now, have you done this? if not, then what is your hope of inheriting eternal life? Let me answer this for you....I cannot go ONE day without sinning, impossible for me to do so, so I by faith LOOK to Jesus Christ and trust HIS perfect obedience for my right to life. Does it grieve me to sin? Indeed it does, yet, I trust God through Jesus Christ to deliver me from this BODY OF SIN that I live IN....and he has promised to do so, by giving to me the earnest of the Spirit to live victorious over sin, but not free from sin's presence.
Quote from: Amo
I hope you won't mind observing the seventh day Sabbath again in heaven, if it turns out you were right, since the scriptures declare we will do so when there.

Isa 66:22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the Lord, so shall your seed and your name remain. 23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the Lord. 24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.
I can enjoy this NOW under the NT through Jesus Christ and the perfect rest he gives to those who cease from their own works and LOOK to Jesus Christ alone for my right to, life in the world to come.

Forgive me for rushing this and forgive the errors herein, for I'm in a hurry as always, but more so at the moment.
Title: Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
Post by: Amo on Fri Oct 13, 2017 - 11:06:50
Well, I would not call you a liar, but without question a confused believer. Amo, of course, we both know that heaven has no gates, for the Lamb is the protector of his people who in that world to come there will be NO FEAR of any enemy without, for there will be none.

More than that, Amo, inheriting the new earth is NOT depending on our understanding, or good works, but Jesus' perfect knowledge and obedience, and thank God that this is so, for if it depended on our works and understanding, then NONE would enter into life. Sir, I was judged IN CHRIST, and will NOT be judged to see if I enter into life based on my own obedience! Now, that being said, this does not give a believer a right to continue in sin that grace may abound, and neither do we teach that just because we understand the Jewish Sabbath is NOT for us, but for them, yet we DO understand the SIGN of it, that it pointed to OUR REST IN CHRIST that we cease from our OWN WORKS, which you have not yet learned. Again, a believer's "overall life" is known by living godly, which is an evidence that they HAVE eternal life abiding within them. No, we do not believe God's commandments are changed, yet in the New Testament no where are NT Christians commanded to keep the Jewish Sabbath, no where and neither do we see it practiced by the apostles~time will not allow us to consider this in depth at the moment, but will if you desire to do so. You are guilty of both.We DO NOT teach that we have the liberty to live as we please. But, do exalt God's commandments a rule for our life to live by, YET, knowing in our hearts that we fall so short every second that we live in the flesh. We fully understand Romans seven, and the grief of spirit that holy Paul experienced DAILY......which you do not. I'm sure you do Amo~that's what pride does for those who think they can keep God's commandments and be rewarded for doing so! Pride also blinds men like you, for you refuse to hear what the law DOES SAY and which Paul enlarged upon in Galatians three, where he said this: Sir, ONCE a man thinks that he will enter into life by keeping God's commandments, then he should UNDERSTAND which you do not, that one's works MUST BE PERFECT in thought, word, and deed, FROM conception to his death, or else he is cursed of God~now, have you done this? if not, then what is your hope of inheriting eternal life? Let me answer this for you....I cannot go ONE day without sinning, impossible for me to do so, so I by faith LOOK to Jesus Christ and trust HIS perfect obedience for my right to life. Does it grieve me to sin? Indeed it does, yet, I trust God through Jesus Christ to deliver me from this BODY OF SIN that I live IN....and he has promised to do so, by giving to me the earnest of the Spirit to live victorious over sin, but not free from sin's presence. I can enjoy this NOW under the NT through Jesus Christ and the perfect rest he gives to those who cease from their own works and LOOK to Jesus Christ alone for my right to, life in the world to come.

Forgive me for rushing this and forgive the errors herein, for I'm in a hurry as always, but more so at the moment.

You have been, are being, and will continue to be judged by God until He determines judgment is over. You completely miss the real point. You think I believe the lost are lost because they broke the commandments of God, not so, we have all broken the commandments of God. The lost are lost because they reject the truth. Sinners can be forgiven for this or that act of sin, but those who reject the truth, reject the Holy Spirit of God and are beyond salvation regardless of claiming Christ as their Savior or not. No one will be lost because they sinned, for all have sinned. All who are lost will be so, because they rejected the truth. This is the underlying principle of sin that destroys, not this or that sinful act. Those who reject the authority of God's ten commandments will not be lost simply because they messed up and broke them, but rather because they rejected the truth of their authenticity and authority. This whole mess began when our parents chose to believe a lie, and for the lost it will all end because they chose to do the same.

2 These 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. 8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: 9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

It is the rejection of truth that is the sinners undoing. Unrighteousness is a result of the same. Those who reject the authenticity and authority of God's ten commandments have first and foremost rejected the truth of God's word attested to and promulgated by the Holy Spirit of God in and through His Son and our Savior Jesus Christ, and the holy men of God selected by Him unto the same. They testify of the authenticity and authority of the ten commandments, you and many others deny the same while claiming salvation in Christ who Himself has told you that His commands would not and could not change until all be fulfilled.

Mt 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

All who reject the truth, reject Jesus Christ as well, regardless of what they claim. Those who believe they can escape judgment in Christ while denying and rejecting the truth, are deceived. They will be lost. All who preach salvation by works will be lost, so to will all who have denied the truth of God's word while professing faith in Christ. It is not possible to have true faith in Christ while rejecting His testimony. All such faith will be weighed in the balances and revealed as dross.

Rev 21:6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely. 7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. 8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

The unbelieving and all liars will be lost. Rejection of truth, and belief in lies, are the foundation of all sin which produces death.

Mt 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. 19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

My Lord and Savior Jesus Christ is the truth, the way, and the life. All who contradict His testimony are unbelieving liars. They are none of His regardless of what they may profess. Rejection of truth is the fundamental and greatest unforgivable sin. I say Jesus and the scriptures teach us to keep all the commandments of God, you say I am a liar for that. You say the scriptures teach we no longer need to keep the commandments of God, or at least one of them, I say you are a liar for that. One of us is a lair, God will and is even now judging between us concerning this matter among others no doubt. You are not freed from the judgment of God simply because you profess Christ as your Savior. God's judgment begins at His own house. If God judges it to be so, you may be freed from the condemnation of God, not His judgment. All of God's ways are judgment, no one escapes His judgement, only His condemnation if they truly be in Christ Jesus our Lord and Savior.

1 Pe 4:17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God? 18 And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear? 19 Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator.

Title: Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
Post by: 4WD on Fri Oct 13, 2017 - 12:40:34
You have been, are being, and will continue to be judged by God until He determines judgment is over. You completely miss the real point. You think I believe the lost are lost because they broke the commandments of God, not so, we have all broken the commandments of God. The lost are lost because they reject the truth. Sinners can be forgiven for this or that act of sin, but those who reject the truth, reject the Holy Spirit of God and are beyond salvation regardless of claiming Christ as their Savior or not. No one will be lost because they sinned, for all have sinned. All who are lost will be so, because they rejected the truth. This is the underlying principle of sin that destroys, not this or that sinful act. Those who reject the authority of God's ten commandments will not be lost simply because they messed up and broke them, but rather because they rejected the truth of their authenticity and authority. This whole mess began when our parents chose to believe a lie, and for the lost it will all end because they chose to do the same.
The lost are lost because THEY sinned AND because they reject the redemption available through Jesus Christ.  It has nothing to do directly with our parents' sins or their parents' sin or with Adam's sin.
Title: Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
Post by: Amo on Fri Oct 13, 2017 - 14:06:46
The lost are lost because THEY sinned AND because they reject the redemption available through Jesus Christ.  It has nothing to do directly with our parents' sins or their parents' sin or with Adam's sin.

It has everything to do with their sin of believing a lie. Of course you don't believe the creation and or fall account anyway, so no surprise you have problems with the real cause of our situation. However you have chosen to define it for yourself. How does an evolutionist define the fall, and sin? What is your account of the story, since you do not believe scripture says, simply as it says.
Title: Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
Post by: 4WD on Fri Oct 13, 2017 - 18:12:22
How does an evolutionist define the fall, and sin?
First I will ask you what "fall" are you referring to.  Once you have identified that and given the biblical basis for that identification, then we can proceed.  Second, I would just note as I have said many, many times in the past, I do not advocate for evolution, biological evolution at least.  I have also said many, many times that I have no doubts that God could have used the evolutionary process in His plan for creation.  If He did, I have no problems with that.  Third, the question of "the fall" is totally unrelated to the question of biological evolution so your apparent connection is curious at best and scripturally ignorant at worst.
Title: Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
Post by: KiwiChristian on Sat Oct 14, 2017 - 01:31:04
Keeping the Saturday Sabbath was the sign of the Mosaic Covenant between God and Jews only (Exodus 31:13,14,16,17).

i) "Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying, Verily my sabbaths ye shall keep: for it is a sign between ME and YOU throughout your generations." Exodus
31:13.

ii) "Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant." Exodus 31:16.

iii) "It is a sign between ME and the children of Israel forever: for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed." Exodus 31:17.

Also God reiterates this command in Ezekiel 20:12,20.

iv) "Moreover also I gave them my sabbaths, to be a sign between me and them."Ezekiel 20:12.

v) "And hallow my sabbaths; and they shall be a sign between me and you." Ezekiel 20:20.

Notice that God says on four occasions that sabbath-keeping is a sign between God and Israel, and that the Sabbath is to be kept throughout their generations, forever.

"Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth ... the giving of the law..." Romans 9:4.
Title: Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
Post by: Amo on Sat Oct 14, 2017 - 07:18:18
First I will ask you what "fall" are you referring to.  Once you have identified that and given the biblical basis for that identification, then we can proceed.  Second, I would just note as I have said many, many times in the past, I do not advocate for evolution, biological evolution at least.  I have also said many, many times that I have no doubts that God could have used the evolutionary process in His plan for creation.  If He did, I have no problems with that.  Third, the question of "the fall" is totally unrelated to the question of biological evolution so your apparent connection is curious at best and scripturally ignorant at worst.

If you don't know what is meant by the fall of humanity recorded in scripture shortly after the creation account, and the problems with that account if evolution is in fact true, then I am not the one who is scripturally ignorant. Even if I was ignorant, there is a big difference between simply not knowing, and choosing not to believe or know. The account of creation and the fall are given in scripture, some do not know because they have never read or heard the account, others do not know because they reject this testimony of scripture. One is simply ignorance, the other is chosen ignorance. The latter reject the word of God as a true or accurate account, and choose either their own wisdom or that of another over the same.

This is in fact exactly what happened at the fall of humanity. God told Adam and Eve one thing, Satan told them another, and they chose to believe Satan over God. All of humanity have been dying ever since, as a result of the same. Evolution of course requires countless deaths as part of its natural progression and development. Creation and evolution are two very different stories. One is given by God, the other is given by fallen humanity, no doubt under the heavy influence and guidance of the evil one himself. It is his purpose to counteract the creator at all times, and take as much of humanity as possible down with himself in the end. Make no mistake about it, the enemy of all souls has a vested interest in supporting the theory of evolution. It suits his purposes very well.

Title: Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
Post by: 4WD on Sat Oct 14, 2017 - 07:44:26
The problem here, Amo, is that so much of that is absolutely false.  The Bible does speak of Adam's fall.  It does not speak of humanity's fall being the result of Adam's fall.  That is perhaps one of the most disgusting and disastrous false doctrines that is proclaimed.  In fact the Bible doesn't ever really speak about humanity's fall.  It does speak about your fall, my fall and nearly every other fall.  But your fall  was charged to you, not Adam.  My fall was charged to me, not Adam.  Everyone's fall was/is charged to them.
Title: Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
Post by: Amo on Sat Oct 14, 2017 - 08:46:13
Keeping the Saturday Sabbath was the sign of the Mosaic Covenant between God and Jews only (Exodus 31:13,14,16,17).

i) "Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying, Verily my sabbaths ye shall keep: for it is a sign between ME and YOU throughout your generations." Exodus
31:13.

ii) "Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant." Exodus 31:16.

iii) "It is a sign between ME and the children of Israel forever: for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed." Exodus 31:17.

Also God reiterates this command in Ezekiel 20:12,20.

iv) "Moreover also I gave them my sabbaths, to be a sign between me and them."Ezekiel 20:12.

v) "And hallow my sabbaths; and they shall be a sign between me and you." Ezekiel 20:20.

Notice that God says on four occasions that sabbath-keeping is a sign between God and Israel, and that the Sabbath is to be kept throughout their generations, forever.

"Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth ... the giving of the law..." Romans 9:4.

I've been through all of these points over and over again on these boards. Of course the Sabbath was given to Israel, they were the chosen people of God during the old covenant established by God with Israel. The Sabbath is God's Sabbath. He instituted it at creation 2000 years before there ever was an Israel. Jesus stated, the Sabbath was made for man, not the Jews. This is of course true, since it was established at creation long before there ever was a Jew.

A blessing was pronounced upon all who would keep the Sabbath even during this old covenant with the Jews, which obviously means that God did not intend it for only the Jews, but for all who accepted His authority regarding the same.

Isa 56:1 Thus saith the Lord, Keep ye judgment, and do justice: for my salvation is near to come, and my righteousness to be revealed. 2 Blessed is the man that doeth this, and the son of man that layeth hold on it; that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and keepeth his hand from doing any evil. 3 Neither let the son of the stranger, that hath joined himself to the Lord, speak, saying, The Lord hath utterly separated me from his people: neither let the eunuch say, Behold, I am a dry tree. 4 For thus saith the Lord unto the eunuchs that keep my sabbaths, and choose the things that please me, and take hold of my covenant; 5 Even unto them will I give in mine house and within my walls a place and a name better than of sons and of daughters: I will give them an everlasting name, that shall not be cut off. 6 Also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to the Lord, to serve him, and to love the name of the Lord, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant; 7 Even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted upon mine altar; for mine house shall be called an house of prayer for all people. 8 The Lord God, which gathereth the outcasts of Israel saith, Yet will I gather others to him, beside those that are gathered unto him.

The above prophecy includes the gentiles who would be brought into Israel by our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, as Isaiah prophesied. This would of course be the gentiles brought in during the establishment if the new covenant Church, which is in fact the new covenant Israel of God. Those who are truly in Christ, have been grafted into the vine, not established as separate from it. The true Israel of God consists of all who are in Christ, they have become one in Him. The counterfeit Israel of God, and counterfeit Church of Christ maintain the wall of separation between Jew and Gentile which Christ came to break down. Thus do you reject the fourth commandment of God as unto Israel alone, no doubt you still consider the Jews who reject Christ to this day as the chosen of God also. Please do correct me if I am wrong on that last point.

Jesus kept the Sabbath and taught its proper observance, never hinting that it would be changed or done away with. To the contrary, our Lord and Savior emphatically stated that the commandments of God would not change at all until all be fulfilled. The New Testament says nowhere that such a change had taken place or was going to. To the contrary, all are admonished to keep the ten commandments of God up to the last book and chapter of the bible.

Isaiah prophecies that the Sabbath will be kept by all the nations of the saved in the new heaven and new earth.

Isa 66:18 For I know their works and their thoughts: it shall come, that I will gather all nations and tongues; and they shall come, and see my glory. 19 And I will set a sign among them, and I will send those that escape of them unto the nations, to Tarshish, Pul, and Lud, that draw the bow, to Tubal, and Javan, to the isles afar off, that have not heard my fame, neither have seen my glory; and they shall declare my glory among the Gentiles. 20 And they shall bring all your brethren for an offering unto the Lord out of all nations upon horses, and in chariots, and in litters, and upon mules, and upon swift beasts, to my holy mountain Jerusalem, saith the Lord, as the children of Israel bring an offering in a clean vessel into the house of the Lord. 21 And I will also take of them for priests and for Levites, saith the Lord. 22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the Lord, so shall your seed and your name remain. 23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the Lord. 24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

Isaiah again ties Sabbath observance to the bringing in of the gentiles which began with the gospel of Jesus Christ and will end at His second coming. After which time all will still come and worship God on His holy Sabbath. You choose to ignore all of this, and then present scripture stating that the Sabbath was given to Israel as proof that no one else need keep it anymore. This is what you choose, not what the whole of scripture presents. I tell you the truth though, you did not choose this of your own accord, God Himself has chosen the deception which those who refuse to listen to Him will believe. Isaiah prophesied the same in the same chapter I just quoted from, which points out that the converted Gentiles will keep the Sabbath of God. This prophecy is exactly about all who have professed Christ, but refuse God's word concerning His Sabbath. He has chosen the final delusion of all who trifle with His words.

Isaiah66 Thus saith the Lord, The heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool: where is the house that ye build unto me? and where is the place of my rest? 2 For all those things hath mine hand made, and all those things have been, saith the Lord: but to this man will I look, even to him that is poor and of a contrite spirit, and trembleth at my word. 3 He that killeth an ox is as if he slew a man; he that sacrificeth a lamb, as if he cut off a dog's neck; he that offereth an oblation, as if he offered swine's blood; he that burneth incense, as if he blessed an idol. Yea, they have chosen their own ways, and their soul delighteth in their abominations. 4 I also will choose their delusions, and will bring their fears upon them; because when I called, none did answer; when I spake, they did not hear: but they did evil before mine eyes, and chose that in which I delighted not.

Those who refuse the Lord's Sabbath and reject His fourth commandment, have chosen their own ways. The word of the Lord has spoken, but they will not hear. The Lord Himself has chosen the abomination of Sunday sacredness as the  greatest and final deception of those who will not hear and submit to His word. Fear and tremble now before the word of God and submit to it's rightful authority, turn from your own understanding and submit to the word of God. If we will tremble now before the word of God, we will not have to tremble in fear of the judgment of God when He returns. God has chosen the delusion. Before it is all over, the choice will be a simple one. Choose the day which God's authority has established for all of humanity, or choose the day which man's authority has already repeatedly tried to establish and will again in the future on a global level. Choose to submit to and worship God, or choose to submit to and worship humanity, or more simply yourself. That is all.

Mt 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

The word of God is filled with testimony regarding God's Sabbath. It says nowhere ever, that His Sabbath will be done away with. It was established at creation before there ever was a Jew. Non Jews were admonished to keep it during the old covenant and promised a blessing if they did. It's observance was prophetically spoken of in connection with the coming in of the Gentiles during the establishment of the new covenant, and also in the new heaven and the new earth. Jesus observed it, and taught it's proper observance which the Jews had desecrated and burdened. He taught that His law would not ever change until all be fulfilled. The scriptures admonish all to keep the commandments of God up to the last book and chapter of the bible. finally, the book of Revelation twice points out that the true followers of Christ who are the saints, keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. God has both spoken, and chosen the delusion of those who will not listen to His words.
Title: Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
Post by: Amo on Sat Oct 14, 2017 - 09:07:55
The problem here, Amo, is that so much of that is absolutely false.  The Bible does speak of Adam's fall.  It does not speak of humanity's fall being the result of Adam's fall.  That is perhaps one of the most disgusting and disastrous false doctrines that is proclaimed.  In fact the Bible doesn't ever really speak about humanity's fall.  It does speak about your fall, my fall and nearly every other fall.  But your fall  was charged to you, not Adam.  My fall was charged to me, not Adam.  Everyone's fall was/is charged to them.

Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Jms 1:13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: 14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. 15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

1 For 15:18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished. 19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable. 20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. 21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. 24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

We are all sinners and die, due to the fall of humanity in their original parents Adam and Eve. Sin and death entered the world through them, righteousness and life entered the world again through Jesus Christ our Lord and Savior. Yes, evolution causes serious problems with this biblical scenario. No doubt this contributes to your problem with the same. Correct me if I am wrong. The implications and ramifications of evolution instead of creation go far deeper than just the creation issue.
Title: Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
Post by: 4WD on Sat Oct 14, 2017 - 09:58:04
God cried out to the Hebrews to stop with the very teaching that you are promoting
Eze 18:1  The word of the LORD came to me:
Eze 18:2  "What do you mean by repeating this proverb concerning the land of Israel, 'The fathers have eaten sour grapes, and the children's teeth are set on edge'?
Eze 18:3  As I live, declares the Lord GOD, this proverb shall no more be used by you in Israel.
Eze 18:4  Behold, all souls are mine; the soul of the father as well as the soul of the son is mine: the soul who sins shall die.

Eze 18:20  The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father, nor the father suffer for the iniquity of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.


You would do well to read and study the whole 18th chapter, for it declares the we are not charged with any others sins; but only our own.  That means that we are not charged with Adam's sin either.

And so many, you included, never quite get the jist of Romans 5:12 or the whole passage 5:12-21.  For there Paul shows clearly that whatever might have been attributed to Adam for the whole of mankind was negated and completely set aside by what Jesus did for the whole of mankind:

Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that because all have sinned:

So here again, why did death pass upon all men?  Quite simply BECAUSE all men have sinned.
Title: Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
Post by: Amo on Sat Oct 14, 2017 - 13:46:29
God cried out to the Hebrews to stop with the very teaching that you are promoting
Eze 18:1  The word of the LORD came to me:
Eze 18:2  "What do you mean by repeating this proverb concerning the land of Israel, 'The fathers have eaten sour grapes, and the children's teeth are set on edge'?
Eze 18:3  As I live, declares the Lord GOD, this proverb shall no more be used by you in Israel.
Eze 18:4  Behold, all souls are mine; the soul of the father as well as the soul of the son is mine: the soul who sins shall die.

Eze 18:20  The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father, nor the father suffer for the iniquity of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.


You would do well to read and study the whole 18th chapter, for it declares the we are not charged with any others sins; but only our own.  That means that we are not charged with Adam's sin either.

And so many, you included, never quite get the jist of Romans 5:12 or the whole passage 5:12-21.  For there Paul shows clearly that whatever might have been attributed to Adam for the whole of mankind was negated and completely set aside by what Jesus did for the whole of mankind:

Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that because all have sinned:

So here again, why did death pass upon all men?  Quite simply BECAUSE all men have sinned.

You should start another thread, this is quite off topic. What you speak above is no revelation. All die the first death caused by the sin of our first parents. None will die the second death because of Adam and Eve's or anyone else's sin, but only for their own. This only because they reject the salvation from sin offered by Jesus Christ. While the acts of Adam and Jesus affected all of humanity, all will choose for themselves what that effect will ultimately be. Adam's sin brought death upon all of humanity, but for the sacrifice of Christ all would remain condemned to death. Christ's sacrifice brought life and righteousness to all of humanity, but is not applied to the unbeliever, and even believers still die the first death as a result of Adam and Eve's sin. Death did not enter the world because all men have sinned, it entered the world through one man who sinned, and all of his offspring inherited his sinful nature. Christ did not come to save humanity, each of which were dying from their own sins, but humanity condemned to death by inheriting a sinful nature from their parents.

Our sinful nature will die one way or another. Either by choice now in Christ Jesus, or in the lake of fire at the second death because we rejected Christ Jesus' offer of reconciliation. Paul clearly states the case.

Rom 6:6 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? 2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? 3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? 4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. 5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: 6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. 7 For he that is dead is freed from sin. 8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him: 9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him. 10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God. 11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord. 12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof. 13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.

"The soul that sins shall die", either here and now by faith in Christ, or later in the lake of fire at the second death. Again though, this is somewhat off topic for this thread. Please do start another thread if you wish to continue this line of thought, or make it more relevant to the topic at hand.
Title: Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
Post by: 4WD on Sun Oct 15, 2017 - 06:42:22
You should start another thread, this is quite off topic. What you speak above is no revelation. All die the first death caused by the sin of our first parents.
Absolutely wrong.  Not even Adam and Eve died physically because they sinned; rather they died physically because God kicked them out of the garden and they no longer had access to the tree of Life (Gen 3:22). They died spiritually the very instant that they disobeyed God just as he told them.  And that is the same with you and me.
Title: Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
Post by: 4WD on Sun Oct 15, 2017 - 07:05:35

 Death did not enter the world because all men have sinned, it entered the world through one man who sinned, and all of his offspring inherited his sinful nature. Christ did not come to save humanity, each of which were dying from their own sins, but humanity condemned to death by inheriting a sinful nature from their parents.
The death that entered the world through one man was not physical death but rather spiritual death. And spiritual death spread to all men because all men sinned. Mankind is not condemned because he has a sinful nature.  He is condemned because he has sinned.  That sinful nature does not cease to exist when we have been redeemed; when we are saved.  It is still there.  And that "sinful nature" was in fact an integral part of creation; if not, then Adam would not have sinned. The "sinful nature" is simply human nature.  It is nothing more than the tendency of man to choose not to obey.  In fact that phrase "sinful nature" is not even found in the Bible except as contrivances in biased translations such as the NIV or the NIrV.
Title: Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
Post by: Amo on Sun Oct 15, 2017 - 11:22:47
Absolutely wrong.  Not even Adam and Eve died physically because they sinned; rather they died physically because God kicked them out of the garden and they no longer had access to the tree of Life (Gen 3:22). They died spiritually the very instant that they disobeyed God just as he told them.  And that is the same with you and me.

Yea, they died because they and all the rest of humanity after them were cut off from the tree of life because of sin. God will not sustain sin, therefore we die. God could sustain sin, but he will not. Adam and Eve and all after them died physical death because of sin. The sin of disobeying God. God told them they would die if they ate from a certain tree, they did eat from that tree, and death has been in the world ever since. This is hard for you as an evolutionist I know, nevertheless, this is what scripture plainly states.

Gen 2:16 And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: 17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Gen 3:2 And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden: 3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.

Nothing about spiritual death, you have added this yourself. The only reason they didn't die as soon as they ate, was because God still sustained them intending to implement the plan of salvation. Nevertheless, he removed them from the tree of life so they could no longer live forever apart from Christ. I understand you must argue against this as an evolutionist. Your precious theory requires an awful lot of physical death, along with an awful lot of extra biblical explanation since the scriptures never address anything like it. Therefore you must demand scripture refers to spiritual death, not physical death, though both are certainly implied. One leads to the other. I am not bound by the parameters of your chosen precious theory of evolution.
Title: Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
Post by: Amo on Sun Oct 15, 2017 - 11:53:19
The death that entered the world through one man was not physical death but rather spiritual death. And spiritual death spread to all men because all men sinned. Mankind is not condemned because he has a sinful nature.  He is condemned because he has sinned.  That sinful nature does not cease to exist when we have been redeemed; when we are saved.  It is still there.  And that "sinful nature" was in fact an integral part of creation; if not, then Adam would not have sinned. The "sinful nature" is simply human nature.  It is nothing more than the tendency of man to choose not to obey.  In fact that phrase "sinful nature" is not even found in the Bible except as contrivances in biased translations such as the NIV or the NIrV.

Again, I am not bound by the parameters of your chosen precious theory. Which theory guides many of your other conclusions which must line up with the same for it to remain true. God did not create sinners, He created perfect being with the ability to choose. Once humanity chose to listen to the evil one over God, they were helpless before the enemy of all souls. Save for God's intervention, all humanity would be slaves to sin and its author Satan. Even with God's intervention He already had to destroy the world once and everyone in it, before there was no one left to be saved. Of course you don't believe this, your chosen precious theory does not allow for it. Humanity was not created needing God's salvation from sin, this is a condition brought about by sin which requires the same, because humanity is not the same as it was before it sinned. We now have a sinful nature. Christ did not come to save Adam before the fall because he did not need saving at that time, now we all need salvation because sin entered the world through our first parents and death along with it. Sin produces death. This is the testimony of scripture which you must deny, because you deny the creation and flood account as well. If not for other reasons as well, as many others do who deny the truth.

Her 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; 15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage. 16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham. 17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people. 18 For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.

He did not come as Adam before the fall to save us, because Adam before the fall needed no saving. He came as the seed of Abraham, with the nature of humanity after the fall, whatever you want to call that since you don't seem to like fallen or sinful nature. This of course again, is necessary to you because of the extra biblical influence of your chosen precious theory which pretty much necessitates a whole lot of death to work. This most certainly was not God's original plan as stated in scripture though, which is obvious to all who hold the scriptures above all other authorities. You will argue against this as you must, if you will maintain your chosen precious theory. You will never properly understand the gospel of Jesus Christ while rejecting the creation account for the deceptive sophistries of the evolutionary theory.

Rev 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. 13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. 14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. 15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

You reject the creation account, and the fourth commandment of God. According to the above testimony, this will not go well for you. Do you not want access to the tree of life again?

Exo 20:8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: 10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: 11 For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.
Title: Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
Post by: 4WD on Sun Oct 15, 2017 - 12:50:55
Her 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
You really think that passage is talking about physical death??  Pity !!
Title: Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
Post by: Amo on Sun Oct 15, 2017 - 17:50:12
You really think that passage is talking about physical death??  Pity !!

He took our nature, and He died physical as well as spiritual death in order to save humanity from both. Both were rendered unto death by sin, therefore our Savior condemned sin in the flesh, that the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled by those who walk according to the Spirit and not the flesh.

Rom 8:8 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: 4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. 8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
Title: Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
Post by: RB on Mon Oct 16, 2017 - 05:24:32
He took our nature, and He died physical as well as spiritual death in order to save humanity from both. Both were rendered unto death by sin, therefore our Savior condemned sin in the flesh, that the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled by those who walk according to the Spirit and not the flesh.
Prove what I highlighted in red that you said. What scriptures are you thinking of that allows you to say that Jesus died a spiritual death?
Quote from: Paul
2nd Corinthians 5:21~"For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him."
Spiritual death is the result of sin. Jesus' perfect obedience is what he offered to God for our sins, and that resulted in his death physically, but nowhere does it hints that he died spiritually, for if he had done so, that would have disqualified him being a Lamb WITHOUT spot or blemish. The JUST for the unjust, etc.  Maybe I'm missing something, help me out. If so, then I will humbly thank you for showing me a truth I'm not seeing. I say this is all sincerity~God is my witness.

So, in WHAT manner/sense did Jesus died spiritually? Scriptures, please.

It seems that this thread is heading in another direction, start another thread for your answer. Thanks, RB. 
Title: Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
Post by: Amo on Fri Oct 20, 2017 - 10:33:13
Prove what I highlighted in red that you said. What scriptures are you thinking of that allows you to say that Jesus died a spiritual death? Spiritual death is the result of sin. Jesus' perfect obedience is what he offered to God for our sins, and that resulted in his death physically, but nowhere does it hints that he died spiritually, for if he had done so, that would have disqualified him being a Lamb WITHOUT spot or blemish. The JUST for the unjust, etc.  Maybe I'm missing something, help me out. If so, then I will humbly thank you for showing me a truth I'm not seeing. I say this is all sincerity~God is my witness.

So, in WHAT manner/sense did Jesus died spiritually? Scriptures, please.

It seems that this thread is heading in another direction, start another thread for your answer. Thanks, RB.

I suppose it depends upon what one believes spiritual death is.

Gal 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would. 18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law. 19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, 20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, 21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, 23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. 24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. 25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

Do you believe Jesus walked in the spirit? Do you believe He became fully man, and therefore needed to walk in the spirit as we also need to walk in the spirit? Those who walk in the spirit crucify the flesh as their Lord and Savior Jesus Christ did all His life long until it lead Him directly to the cross where He continued and finalized His spiritual death with His literal death. This I say in relation to His fully human nature, not His divine nature. He emptied Himself of the latter when He came to work out our salvation for us, as one of us. He did what we could not do, that we might be able to do the same through the power of the Holy Spirit unleashed to all who believe when He conquered sin in the flesh.

You are correct when you say spiritual death is a result of sin, and Jesus came to save us from that death, which leads to literal death. Jesus came to die the death which we could not, that we might also live the life which we could not in our fallen condition. That death was and is first and foremost spiritual, not physical. Fallen humanity lives for the flesh, that is for themselves above God and others. This is the nature they inherited from the fallen one who also lived for himself above God and others by exalting Himself to the rightful and only place of God, which is first in everything. When we chose to follow the father of lies over God, we became like him, living unto ourselves. Changing this requires a spiritual death in Christ who came to save us from this fallen condition, that we might once again put God in His proper place, first in everything, by obedience to Him. This as apposed to the disobedience of those who live for self first just as the father of lies. Jesus conquered sin in the flesh by leading the way and walking in the spirit all His life long in our fallen flesh. This, that we might follow Him and do the same. It's all about bringing all of creation back to the perfect order of God first in all things. It can be no other way, for He is first in all things, not because He tries to or needs to be, but simply because He is. He is, and there is no other apart from Him.

1 Cor 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. 24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. 28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
Title: Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
Post by: Hobie on Sat Jun 15, 2019 - 15:51:36
Please  provide evidence for these two statements.


Paul himself did not tell anyone to keep the Sabbath. It seemed to be a matter of indifference to him:

"Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day—things which are a mere shadow of what is to come, but the substance belongs to Christ." (Col 2:17-19).

Note that he says “Therefore let no one pass judgment on you”

He also says:
"For one person considers one day more important than another, while another person considers all days alike. Let everyone be fully persuaded in his own mind. Whoever observes the day observes it to the Lord" (Rom. 14:5–6).

Note also his final comment "Whoever observes the day [whichever he chooses] observes it to the Lord". It is not about a Jewish Law but about Jesus.
So did Paul keep the Sabbath, that tells you right there
Title: Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
Post by: current occupant2 on Sat Jun 15, 2019 - 17:33:28
Neither is Saturday worship sanctioned in scripture. 

Please provide from the bible alone, your proof that saturday is the 7th day of the week.  - or that sunday is the 1st day of the week.    - or that friday is the 6th day of the week. 
Title: Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
Post by: piecrust on Sat Jun 15, 2019 - 19:34:53
Do people who worship on Saturday worship that day?  What about people who worship on Sunday?  Hopefully they worship the Lord!

Hopefully too they worship privately EVERY day.

You're right Sunday worship is not sanctioned.  However the Israelites were called to worship ON the first day of the week...Pentecost for example.



Title: Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
Post by: Amo on Sat Jun 15, 2019 - 19:56:48
Of course, the Jews who have been keeping the seventh day for four thousand years now, lost the seventh day, and Christians who have been keeping the first day for at least 1700 years now lost the first day. Is this correct?
Title: Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
Post by: current occupant2 on Sat Jun 15, 2019 - 21:44:18
Of course, the Jews who have been keeping the seventh day for four thousand years now, lost the seventh day, and Christians who have been keeping the first day for at least 1700 years now lost the first day. Is this correct?


Yes, the Jews have changed their calendar in many ways.  You should study those changes. 

Title: Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
Post by: Cathlodox on Sun Dec 29, 2019 - 12:10:35
All "Moral" or "Natural" Commandments in the Law of Moses are indeed binding on Christians...
...Man is commanded by nature to honor God (god's) & dedicate some type to worship.
...Man was never commanded by nature or set aside a specific time to do this.

Thus, the 3rd Commandment is moral as far as every culture has set aside time to honor it's Deities...
...The Sabbath Commandment required knowledge of it to be communicated supernaturally.
....Like the Day of Atonement, New Moons, Passover, etc. AT SPECIFIC TIMES.

This makes the TIMING ceremonial and subject to change.

The other thing that appears to have been missed by those who adhere to Ellen White's interpretation is that all the examples given of the Apostles going to the Temple or Synagogue are NOT examples of Christian Assembly or Worship. These are only examples of Christians spreading the Gospel where Jew's gathered in mass.


Saint Paul was explicit that Christians were to "ASSEMBLE THEMSELVES TOGETHER".

Hebrews 10, 20
By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh; And having an high priest over the house of God; Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water. Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised;) And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works: Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching. For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

It is unlawful in Judaism to have "a collection" on the Sabbath...
...It's was the same way back then - at the time of the Apostles.
...Scripture is CLEAR that Christians assembled themselves together.

ON THE 1st DAY OF THE WEEK.

1st Corinthians 16, 1 - 3
That's the day the Christians assembled themselves together. Notice also that this isn't a request - it's an Apostolic COMMAND.

Furthermore Scripture is explicit that the assembly above WAS specifically Christian Worship.

1st Corinthians 11, 17
Now in this that I declare unto you I praise you not, that ye come together not for the better, but for the worse.
18 For first of all, when ye come together in the church, I hear that there be divisions among you; and I partly believe it.
19 For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you.
20 When ye come together therefore into one place, this is not to eat the Lord's supper.
21 For in eating every one taketh before other his own supper: and one is hungry, and another is drunken.
22 What? have ye not houses to eat and to drink in? or despise ye the church of God, and shame them that have not? what shall I say to you? shall I praise you in this? I praise you not.
23 For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, that the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread:
24 And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me.
25 After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, this cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me.
26 For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come.

27 Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.
28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup.
29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.

The above would NOT have been done in a Synagogue OR on the Sabbath for the simple fact practicing Jews didn't take up a collection on the Sabbath, period.

Christians meeting on Sunday is of Apostolic origin and claiming otherwise is simply an old anti-Trinitarian teaching.




Title: Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
Post by: Hobie on Mon Dec 30, 2019 - 09:43:17
All "Moral" or "Natural" Commandments in the Law of Moses are indeed binding on Christians...
...Man is commanded by nature to honor God (god's) & dedicate some type to worship.
...Man was never commanded by nature or set aside a specific time to do this.

Thus, the 3rd Commandment is moral as far as every culture has set aside time to honor it's Deities...
...The Sabbath Commandment required knowledge of it to be communicated supernaturally.
....Like the Day of Atonement, New Moons, Passover, etc. AT SPECIFIC TIMES.

This makes the TIMING ceremonial and subject to change.

The other thing that appears to have been missed by those who adhere to Ellen White's interpretation is that all the examples given of the Apostles going to the Temple or Synagogue are NOT examples of Christian Assembly or Worship. These are only examples of Christians spreading the Gospel where Jew's gathered in mass.


Saint Paul was explicit that Christians were to "ASSEMBLE THEMSELVES TOGETHER".

Hebrews 10, 20
By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh; And having an high priest over the house of God; Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water. Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised;) And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works: Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching. For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

It is unlawful in Judaism to have "a collection" on the Sabbath...
...It's was the same way back then - at the time of the Apostles.
...Scripture is CLEAR that Christians assembled themselves together.

ON THE 1st DAY OF THE WEEK.

1st Corinthians 16, 1 - 3
That's the day the Christians assembled themselves together. Notice also that this isn't a request - it's an Apostolic COMMAND.

Furthermore Scripture is explicit that the assembly above WAS specifically Christian Worship.

1st Corinthians 11, 17
Now in this that I declare unto you I praise you not, that ye come together not for the better, but for the worse.
18 For first of all, when ye come together in the church, I hear that there be divisions among you; and I partly believe it.
19 For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you.
20 When ye come together therefore into one place, this is not to eat the Lord's supper.
21 For in eating every one taketh before other his own supper: and one is hungry, and another is drunken.
22 What? have ye not houses to eat and to drink in? or despise ye the church of God, and shame them that have not? what shall I say to you? shall I praise you in this? I praise you not.
23 For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, that the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread:
24 And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me.
25 After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, this cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me.
26 For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come.

27 Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.
28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup.
29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.

The above would NOT have been done in a Synagogue OR on the Sabbath for the simple fact practicing Jews didn't take up a collection on the Sabbath, period.

Christians meeting on Sunday is of Apostolic origin and claiming otherwise is simply an old anti-Trinitarian teaching.
How so, its in the Ten Commandments.
Title: Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
Post by: Jaime on Mon Dec 30, 2019 - 11:01:09
Why is the THIRD commandment mentioned as the Sabbath commandment? It was the fourth.

Apparently the Carholic list of ten commandments is different than the scriptural list. Does this seem prudent?

 https://www.preparingforeternity.com/biblevscat.htm (https://www.preparingforeternity.com/biblevscat.htm)

Does anyone know the reason for the elaborate change?
Title: Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
Post by: Cathlodox on Mon Dec 30, 2019 - 22:04:09
Hobbie,

The Command to set aside time for God is without doubt part of the Moral or Natural Law...
...This is observed in any culture throughout all of recorded history.
...The specific TIMING of observance is absolutely ceremonial.

Here is how it went down:

"Then said the Lord unto Moses, Behold, I will rain bread from heaven for you; and the people shall go out and gather a certain rate every day, that I may prove them, whether they will walk in my law, or no." Exodus 16,4

Them / They = The Children of Israel and it's at the point of Exodus 16,4 that we 1st find out that God is going to test "the Children of Israel" to see if "THEY" will do what God tells THEM to do.

The Children of Israel didn't know about the Sabbath prior to being informed of it.

Exodus 10,26
Our cattle also shall go with us; there shall not an hoof be left behind; for thereof must we take to serve the Lord our God; and we know not with what we must serve the Lord, until we come thither

So, they didn't know how or in what way they were to worship.

As for the point made about the Catholic Church "renaming" or rearranging the Commandments I'm afraid they were here 1st - by a long shot. If someone wants to following the Talmudic numbering of the 10 Commandments I have no problem with that. Luther numbered the Commandments like the CC did after his separation from the CC.

Title: Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
Post by: Jaime on Tue Dec 31, 2019 - 06:17:08
The question is WHY were the 10 commandments renumbered and shuffled? The warning of Daniel 7:25 comes to mind about someone coming and wanting to change set times and laws.

One thing about the Exodus adventure, God not only got the Israelites out of Egypt, he had to get Egypt out of THEM after 400 years.
Title: Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
Post by: Cathlodox on Tue Dec 31, 2019 - 07:40:36
What do you mean shuffled and renumbered?

Generally, if you trace SDA theology back to it's roots it's discovered that ultimately they claim "Jesus" was who changed times and laws. I'm not being sarcastic here in the least. Traditional or Historic SDA's don't believe Jesus was God (Like the Father is God) therefore the Trinity is false and given that Jesus didn't have the Authority to fulfill the Sabbath day.

The SDA Pioneers called this quandary 'The Sabbath God Vs. The Sunday God'.

The SDA Pioneers were speaking of "THE FATHER" and the concept was that the Sabbath God was a flesh, bone & functional organ hominid God while the Sunday God was a false 'spirit god' that lacked a body of flesh with intestines. The SDA's would publish articles in the Church papers alerting the reader to know the difference between the Sabbath God and the Sunday God and the critical importance of KNOWING Father God was a flesh God.

http://documents.adventistarchives.org/Periodicals/RH/RH18540307-V05-07.pdf





Title: Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
Post by: Jaime on Tue Dec 31, 2019 - 08:12:45
Shuffled and renumbered as in the link I provided. Surely you see that happened, why? Compare the Catechism list to the scriptural list. Shuffled and renumbered, yes. Again WHY?

By the way I am not SDA. I worship on Sunday. I belong to a congregation of the Church of Christ. I DO have nagging questions about my tribe’s explanation of Sunday. I think it is imperative to understand the history of this.

It was my understanding that SDAs believe that Sunday worship is the mark of the beast, and the Papacy is the Beast that changed times and laws.
Title: Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
Post by: beam on Tue Dec 31, 2019 - 08:57:17
Quote
By the way I am not SDA. I worship on Sunday. I belong to a congregation of the Church of Christ. I DO have nagging questions about my tribe’s explanation of Sunday. I think it is imperative to understand the history of this.
Many Sunday churches claim that Sunday is the Sabbath.  Because most people do not read and study scripture those churches get by with a complete falsehood.   The new covenant has nothing to say about the "keeping" of days.   The early church did choose Sunday as the day of corporate worship.  There is absolutely nothing wrong with that choice.  What is wrong is the fact that they defend it as THE day because of some references from the New Testament like giving donations on the first day of the week, meeting on the first day and Jesus resurrection.  Those verses are a far cry from a demand to worship on that day each week.   Tithing is another example of the church's way to fill the coffers.  There is nothing in the new covenant about tithing and there are not many Christians that would fall under the old covenant tithing laws anyway.  Only those who raised crops and or livestock were required to pay the tax.   Jesus and the disciples would not have been tithe payers under the old covenant law.  Study scripture instead of taking anyone's word.
Title: Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
Post by: Jaime on Tue Dec 31, 2019 - 09:48:39
In my view Jesus raised the Bar on giving when he said give as you have been prospered. Same as he raised the bar on do not kill. He said do not even harbor anger in your heart. It’s a whole lot easier to just not kill. Jesus RAISED the bar, he didn’t eliminate the bar.
Title: Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
Post by: winsome on Tue Dec 31, 2019 - 14:44:26
Shuffled and renumbered as in the link I provided. Surely you see that happened, why? Compare the Catechism list to the scriptural list. Shuffled and renumbered, yes. Again WHY?

The Ten Commandments were not shuffled and renumbered.
If you look at the list in Deuteronony (and Exodus is similar), there are actually 12 commandments.
Deuteronomy 5:7-21
1. You shall have no other gods before me. 
2. You shall not make for yourself a graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is on the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth;
3. you shall not bow down to them or serve them; ……
4 You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain:……..
5. Observe the sabbath day, to keep it holy, as the LORD your God commanded you. ...
6. Honor your father and your mother, ……
7. You shall not kill.
8. Neither shall you commit adultery.
9. Neither shall you steal.
10. Neither shall you bear false witness against your neighbor.
11. Neither shall you covet your neighbor's wife;
12. you shall not desire your neighbor's house, his field, or his manservant, or his maidservant, his ox, or his ass, or anything that is your neighbors.

In order to get to ten some of the commandments have to be conflated into one.
Catholics, Jews and Lutherans conflate 1,2 &3, presumably because they all concern the same topic. Most Protestants (except Lutherans) & Orthodox conflate 2&3, and 11&12 (as do Jews)
 Jews make up 10 because they treat the preceding verse “I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage” as the first “saying” or “declaration”
 (see - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ten_Commandments (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ten_Commandments)).

The Catholic list was (I think) derived from Deuteronomy.All lists have all the same commands in them except Christians do not include Ex 20:2 or Dt 5:6 as the Jews do.

P.S. The link you gave is a typical protestant distortion of the truth.
 
Title: Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
Post by: winsome on Tue Dec 31, 2019 - 14:50:17

How so, its in the Ten Commandments.
So what? The Ten Commandments was Covenant Law (legal code) for the Jews (the Mosaic Covenant) and as such Christians are not subject to it.
Title: Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
Post by: beam on Tue Dec 31, 2019 - 17:00:22
In my view Jesus raised the Bar on giving when he said give as you have been prospered.
Maybe you should check scripture before either paraphrasing or quoting something that is not true.


Quote
Same as he raised the bar on do not kill. He said do not even harbor anger in your heart. It’s a whole lot easier to just not kill. Jesus RAISED the bar, he didn’t eliminate the bar.
Matt9:21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.   Yep, Jesus did raise the bar.  Do you think Jesus is asking each of us to do the same.  He did say to the young man:  if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.    There is no commandment in the 10 commandments that indicated that Israelites had to give.   Now, nobody is under the 10 commandments or the laws dictated to Moses by God.
Title: Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
Post by: Jaime on Tue Dec 31, 2019 - 17:15:29
I’m sorry, it was Paul in 1Corinthians 16:2 that said that. HE raised the bar.

Giving 10% would be much easier than deciding to what extent I had been prospered. I consider 10% to be a guideline and as I have been prospered as WAY more of a challenge to our conscience. It’s like comparing avoiding murder vs harboring anger in my heart. I can avoid murder all day every day, but not so much with harboring anger.

I would have assumed a picky person like you would have cited the 1 Corinthian verse to dispell my untruth, inadvertant as it was.

Jesus was indeed about raising the bar. He did the same thing with the act of adultry and lust in the heart. It’s WAY harder to not have lust in one’s heart than it is to not commit the act of adultry. He properly filled full the Spirit of the law to the shell or letter of the law, that which the pharisees had emptied.
Title: Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
Post by: beam on Wed Jan 01, 2020 - 07:45:00
I’m sorry, it was Paul in 1Corinthians 16:2 that said that. HE raised the bar.

Giving 10% would be much easier than deciding to what extent I had been prospered. I consider 10% to be a guideline and as I have been prospered as WAY more of a challenge to our conscience. It’s like comparing avoiding murder vs harboring anger in my heart. I can avoid murder all day every day, but not so much with harboring anger.

I would have assumed a picky person like you would have cited the 1 Corinthian verse to dispell my untruth, inadvertant as it was.
Assumed???  Why would you assume?  I did think of Paul's admonition on how to support the spreading of the Gospel.  So, now, in your eyes, I am "picky" because I cited an error from Jamie.  I would be thanking you for setting me straight when I error, but no I am just being "picky".

Quote
Jesus was indeed about raising the bar. He did the same thing with the act of adultry and lust in the heart. It’s WAY harder to not have lust in one’s heart than it is to not commit the act of adultry. He properly filled full the Spirit of the law to the shell or letter of the law, that which the pharisees had emptied.
If Jesus had meant He "filled full the law" He would have said that was what He did.  What He said was He came to fulfil the prophecies about Him and fulfil the law period.  Changing the meaning of what Jesus said certainly is not in anyone's best interest.   Paul confirmed that Jesus brought the old covenant law to an end when he wrote Gal 3:19 Why, then, was the law given at all? It was added because of transgressions until the Seed to whom the promise referred had come.
And then there is another clinching verse found in Eph2:14 For he himself is our peace, who has made the two groups one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, 15 by setting aside in his flesh the law with its commands and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new humanity out of the two, thus making peace,

I pray this helps.
Title: Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
Post by: Jaime on Wed Jan 01, 2020 - 07:54:50
Filling full the law with the Spirit is exactly what Jesus did in the entirety of Mathew chapter 5, the sermon on the mount. Filling full the law IS fulfilling the Law that the pharisee had emptied. He did not come to abolish the Law. I pray this helps as well.

I probably took your tone  to be too judgmental. I apologize for saying you were picky. At the time it just seemed a little snarky to me. It probably wasn’t your intention. I really thought you would have brought up 1 Cor 16:2 as Paul’s statement to correct me if correcting me was your aim. But there I go assuming again!

For us as Christians, we are free from the law of sin and death.

By the way fill full and fullfill mean exactly the same thing in Hebrew or Aramaic.
Title: Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
Post by: Cathlodox on Wed Jan 01, 2020 - 10:00:21
Quote from: winsome
So what? The Ten Commandments was Covenant Law (legal code) for the Jews (the Mosaic Covenant) and as such Christians are not subject to it.

Christians are under the Law of Christ according to Scripture...
...Which is ALL the moral or natural law found in the law of Moses.
...With additional commands added in.

What Christians are in no way obligated to observe are the "ceremonial aspects" of the Law of Moses or ceremonial or ritualistic laws that predated Moses.

In the first 70 years of the Christian Church there was much liberty granted to Christians who came from a Jewish background - these Christians continued to frequent the Synagogue and Temple AND even participate in Jewish religious practices - these Jews were green lighted by the Church to do this PROVIDED that they DIDN'T teach that those practices, as found in the law of Moses, were essential to Salvation.

The weekly (sabbaths), the Monthly (new moons) and yearly (solemnities such as the Passover, Day of Atonement, etc) are identified as "Shadows"  along with animal sacrifices & circumcision.

As Saint Paul explicitly said:

"We have an altar, whereof they have no right to eat which serve the tabernacle."

The whole context of the Book of Hebrews is against the Judaizers (the Party of the circumcision) who maintained that to be saved a Christian must be circumcised, observe the Jewish Sabbath, eat kosher, etc, etc, etc. The Book of Hebrews is clear that if a person thinks observing ANY of that stuff saves them they are not even entitled to take Christian communion.
Title: Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
Post by: winsome on Wed Jan 01, 2020 - 10:20:03
Christians are under the Law of Christ according to Scripture...
...Which is ALL the moral or natural law found in the law of Moses.
...With additional commands added in.

What Christians are in no way obligated to observe are the "ceremonial aspects" of the Law of Moses or ceremonial or ritualistic laws that predated Moses.

In the first 70 years of the Christian Church there was much liberty granted to Christians who came from a Jewish background - these Christians continued to frequent the Synagogue and Temple AND even participate in Jewish religious practices - these Jews were green lighted by the Church to do this PROVIDED that they DIDN'T teach that those practices, as found in the law of Moses, were essential to Salvation.

The weekly (sabbaths), the Monthly (new moons) and yearly (solemnities such as the Passover, Day of Atonement, etc) are identified as "Shadows"  along with animal sacrifices & circumcision.

As Saint Paul explicitly said:

"We have an altar, whereof they have no right to eat which serve the tabernacle."

The whole context of the Book of Hebrews is against the Judaizers (the Party of the circumcision) who maintained that to be saved a Christian must be circumcised, observe the Jewish Sabbath, eat kosher, etc, etc, etc. The Book of Hebrews is clear that if a person thinks observing ANY of that stuff saves them they are not even entitled to take Christian communion.
Hi Cathlodox,
Not sure if you are disagreeing with me or not.
However I entirely agree with the points you are making above and in reply #54.

Title: Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
Post by: Texas Conservative on Wed Jan 01, 2020 - 10:45:42
What do you mean shuffled and renumbered?

Generally, if you trace SDA theology back to it's roots it's discovered that ultimately they claim "Jesus" was who changed times and laws. I'm not being sarcastic here in the least. Traditional or Historic SDA's don't believe Jesus was God (Like the Father is God) therefore the Trinity is false and given that Jesus didn't have the Authority to fulfill the Sabbath day.

The SDA Pioneers called this quandary 'The Sabbath God Vs. The Sunday God'.

The SDA Pioneers were speaking of "THE FATHER" and the concept was that the Sabbath God was a flesh, bone & functional organ hominid God while the Sunday God was a false 'spirit god' that lacked a body of flesh with intestines. The SDA's would publish articles in the Church papers alerting the reader to know the difference between the Sabbath God and the Sunday God and the critical importance of KNOWING Father God was a flesh God.

[url]http://documents.adventistarchives.org/Periodicals/RH/RH18540307-V05-07.pdf[/url]


All one needs to know is that the SDA church was built on the sands of Millerism.  Jesus did not return in 1844, and to make the lack of return make sense, they then taught that Jesus entered the Holy Sanctuary in 1844, which is a blasphemy of the death, burial and resurrection of Christ.

I won't say there are no Christians who are SDA's, but if there are it is in spite of the SDA church, not because of it.
Title: Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
Post by: seekingHiswisdom on Wed Jan 01, 2020 - 11:01:05
Nowhere in the scriptures do you find one word which sanctions Sunday worship, you can search in the Old as well as the New Testament there is nothing.

 
Very simple,

Do as the Catholics do. They have a daily mass and many people attend daily. End result.... they are certain to worship on a day that you claim God approves of. ::tippinghat::

Quote
   Matthew 28:1, "After the sabbath, as the first day of the week was dawning, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary went to see the tomb. And suddenly there was a great earthquake...." Jesus was crucified on Friday.

Mark 16:9, "Now after he rose early on the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, from whom he had cast out seven demons."This verse simply records that, after His resurrection early on the Sunday morning, Jesus appeared to Mary Magdalene.   

Jesus' Resurrection....

Webster defines resurection as:

Definition of resurrection

1acapitalized : the rising of Christ from the dead
boften capitalized : the rising again to life of all the human dead before the final judgment
c: the state of one risen from the dead

FACT: Jesus rose after the Jewish Sabbath.

Why do you think that is? I submit because not only was it the first day of the week, it was because HE, and only HE offered a new beginning. A new beginning for those who would be following him in action and faith.

A new way. A new everything.

It is only proper that worship of Him would be separate from any other  Jewish and or Pagan worships.

It separates us. It separates the wheat from the chaff if you would.

He offered us a new beginning. A new life. An everlasting life into eternity.

How WRONG it would be to try and blend that into any other religious days or practices.

Jesus said

Revelation 1:8 King James Version (KJV)
8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

repeated:

Revelation 22:13
“I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.”

He began on the first day of the week.

He waited until the Passover Sabbath was ended and the weekly Sabbath was ended.

It is only proper for us to worship him on the day he began.... NOT after a week had gone by until Fri. sundown.

Quote
           Jesus was crucified on Friday.   

NO HE WAS NOT!

This has been discussed in other threads. Do a search.
Title: Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
Post by: Cathlodox on Wed Jan 01, 2020 - 22:34:06
Hi Winsome,

My position pertaining to the ceremonial aspects within the law of Moses is that the Jewish Sabbath, along with the rest of it was fulfilled by Christ. I believe that Scripture is very clear that an "Apostolic Order" was given that Christians were to "assemble themselves together" and that failing to do this was a "sin". The only day given in Scripture that Christians "broke bread & took a collection was on the 1st day of the week.

All the examples given in Scripture where the Synagogues or Temple were visited is identified in Scripture as presenting the Gospel to unbelievers. Granted that THAT took place many times on the Sabbath however when Christians assembled "themselves" together in Devotion of the Eucharist, preaching & the prayers.

Acts 2, 42
And they devoted themselves to the apostles’ teaching and fellowship, to the breaking of bread and the prayers.

I've heard SDA's claim that when Scripture uses the phrase "breaking bread" it simply means participating in a common meal - this is absurd. Unless one would find it reasonable that the Apostles had a "devotion" to eating common meals this very odd interpretation belongs in the trash can.


Acts 20,7
And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech until midnight.


1 Corinthians 16, 1
Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I have given order to the churches of Galatia, even so do ye. Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come.

If Christians expected to see Paul "on the 1st day of the week" its logical to conclude that was then they [Christians] were Massing. It's when they were assembling themselves together as Christians. In any event Jews DON'T take a collection on the Sabbath.

1 Corinthians 10, 16
The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ? For we being many are one bread, and one body: for we are all partakers of that one bread.


1 Corinthians 11, 20
When ye come together therefore into one place, this is not to eat the Lord's supper. For in eating every one taketh before other his own supper: and one is hungry, and another is drunken. What? have ye not houses to eat and to drink in? or despise ye the church of God, and shame them that have not? what shall I say to you? shall I praise you in this? I praise you not. For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, that the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread: And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me. After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, this cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me. For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come. Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord. But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup. For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.


NOT assembling as Christians, according to Scripture, is a sin...
...And if the day the Apostolic Church assembled was on Sunday.
....It stands to reason this Apostolic Tradition is Biblical.

Hebrews 10,23
Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised;) And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works: Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching. For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries

Hopefully this clarifies my position and hopefully we are in agreement :)  ::smile::

Title: Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
Post by: beam on Thu Jan 02, 2020 - 09:19:08
While it is true from scripture that the first day of the week was referred to several times there is nothing in the New Testament indicating that it held any special value like was the Sabbath given only to Israel, the one that ended at Calvary.  Christians have the free will to worship where and when prompted by the Holy Spirit.  No church has the right to dictate when and where.  The last paragraph of the above post is all Christians have relating to gathering together.  We should  "Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is;".  I take it as a command and join in with believers most every week.
Title: Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
Post by: Cathlodox on Thu Jan 02, 2020 - 09:36:25
Quote from: beam
While it is true from scripture that the first day of the week was referred to several times there is nothing in the New Testament indicating that it held any special value like was the Sabbath given only to Israel, the one that ended at Calvary.  Christians have the free will to worship where and when prompted by the Holy Spirit.  No church has the right to dictate when and where.  The last paragraph of the above post is all Christians have relating to gathering together.  We should  "Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is;".  I take it as a command and join in with believers most every week.

1 Corinthians 16,1
Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I have given order to the churches of Galatia, even so do ye. Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come.

Title: Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
Post by: beam on Thu Jan 02, 2020 - 10:15:33
1 Corinthians 16,1
Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I have given order to the churches of Galatia, even so do ye. Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come.
Study the verse.  It says nothing about gathering as a collective body on Sunday and giving contributions.  What it is saying is for the believers to account for the past week's income and store the contribution from those funds they would at some point be giving.
Title: Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
Post by: Cathlodox on Thu Jan 02, 2020 - 10:38:25
Quote from: beam
Study the verse.  It says nothing about gathering as a collective body on Sunday and giving contributions.  What it is saying is for the believers to account for the past week's income and store the contribution from those funds they would at some point be giving.

If when they (the Christians in that area) were all assembled together on the 1st day of the week AND that was the day Paul expected to see them AND take the collection its established that the early Church was meeting, for worship, on Sunday - exactly as were the Churches in Galatia.
Title: Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
Post by: 4WD on Thu Jan 02, 2020 - 10:56:48
If when they (the Christians in that area) were all assembled together on the 1st day of the week AND that was the day Paul expected to see them AND take the collection its established that the early Church was meeting, for worship, on Sunday - exactly as were the Churches in Galatia.
There is not a single verse in the whole of the NT that calls people to gather together to worship.  They were called together for fellowship, for study, for encouraging one another, for a number of things, none of which were worship.
Title: Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
Post by: Cathlodox on Thu Jan 02, 2020 - 11:17:45
Quote from: 4WD
There is not a single verse in the whole of the NT that calls people to gather together to worship.  They were called together for fellowship, for study, for encouraging one another, for a number of things, none of which were worship

Acts 20, 7
And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech until midnight.


1 Corinthians 10, 15
I speak as to wise men; judge ye what I say. The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ? For we being many are one bread, and one body: for we are all partakers of that one bread.

1 Corinthians 11, 20
When ye come together therefore into one place, this is not to eat the Lord's supper. For in eating every one taketh before other his own supper: and one is hungry, and another is drunken. What? have ye not houses to eat and to drink in? or despise ye the church of God, and shame them that have not? what shall I say to you? shall I praise you in this? I praise you not.

That sounds like Church to me and it sounds like Church on the 1st day of the week.

Title: Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
Post by: beam on Thu Jan 02, 2020 - 11:30:00
If when they (the Christians in that area) were all assembled together on the 1st day of the week AND that was the day Paul expected to see them AND take the collection its established that the early Church was meeting, for worship, on Sunday - exactly as were the Churches in Galatia.
The fact is that nowhere is there a command or directive to meet on any day of the week.  You have proven nothing to counter that fact.

I am not opposed to meeting on any day.  Sunday is the day most worship on and is fine with me.  I assemble with believers most every Sunday.  I do not consider it to be the Sabbath and if I want to buy or sell on that day I do.  I could care less who and when it all started or who sanctioned it to be the Christian Sabbath.  To me it is a convenient day to assemble.  What I am opposed to is anyone telling me I have to worship on a certain day of face the consequences.
Title: Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
Post by: 4WD on Thu Jan 02, 2020 - 11:48:22
Acts 20, 7
And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech until midnight.


1 Corinthians 10, 15
I speak as to wise men; judge ye what I say. The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ? For we being many are one bread, and one body: for we are all partakers of that one bread.

1 Corinthians 11, 20
When ye come together therefore into one place, this is not to eat the Lord's supper. For in eating every one taketh before other his own supper: and one is hungry, and another is drunken. What? have ye not houses to eat and to drink in? or despise ye the church of God, and shame them that have not? what shall I say to you? shall I praise you in this? I praise you not.

That sounds like Church to me and it sounds like Church on the 1st day of the week.
And not one of those speaks about worshiping; rather you insert your own definition and meaning of worship into those passages.  I personally believe that some of the waning "Christianity" today is due to the fact that worship has come to be defined as the gathering together on Sunday morning.  That is for a lot of things as presented in the passages you posted, but it is not for worship.  Worship is a whole 'nother thing.
Title: Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
Post by: winsome on Thu Jan 02, 2020 - 12:02:16
Hi Winsome,

My position pertaining to the ceremonial aspects within the law of Moses is that the Jewish Sabbath, along with the rest of it was fulfilled by Christ. I believe that Scripture is very clear that an "Apostolic Order" was given that Christians were to "assemble themselves together" and that failing to do this was a "sin". The only day given in Scripture that Christians "broke bread & took a collection was on the 1st day of the week.

All the examples given in Scripture where the Synagogues or Temple were visited is identified in Scripture as presenting the Gospel to unbelievers. Granted that THAT took place many times on the Sabbath however when Christians assembled "themselves" together in Devotion of the Eucharist, preaching & the prayers.

Acts 2, 42
And they devoted themselves to the apostles’ teaching and fellowship, to the breaking of bread and the prayers.

I've heard SDA's claim that when Scripture uses the phrase "breaking bread" it simply means participating in a common meal - this is absurd. Unless one would find it reasonable that the Apostles had a "devotion" to eating common meals this very odd interpretation belongs in the trash can.


Acts 20,7
And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech until midnight.


1 Corinthians 16, 1
Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I have given order to the churches of Galatia, even so do ye. Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come.

If Christians expected to see Paul "on the 1st day of the week" its logical to conclude that was then they [Christians] were Massing. It's when they were assembling themselves together as Christians. In any event Jews DON'T take a collection on the Sabbath.

1 Corinthians 10, 16
The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ? For we being many are one bread, and one body: for we are all partakers of that one bread.


1 Corinthians 11, 20
When ye come together therefore into one place, this is not to eat the Lord's supper. For in eating every one taketh before other his own supper: and one is hungry, and another is drunken. What? have ye not houses to eat and to drink in? or despise ye the church of God, and shame them that have not? what shall I say to you? shall I praise you in this? I praise you not. For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, that the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread: And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me. After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, this cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me. For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come. Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord. But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup. For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.


NOT assembling as Christians, according to Scripture, is a sin...
...And if the day the Apostolic Church assembled was on Sunday.
....It stands to reason this Apostolic Tradition is Biblical.

Hebrews 10,23
Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised;) And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works: Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching. For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries

Hopefully this clarifies my position and hopefully we are in agreement :)  ::smile::
Hi Cathlodox,
I don't disagree with any of that.

I usually approach SDAs and their Sabbath keeping by pointing out that the Old Law (of the Mosaic Covenant) has been abolished/abrogated/ended and that includes the Ten Commandments as Covenant law. The moral commands that are codified in the Ten Commandments are still applicable because they reflect the Natural Moral Law which exists for all people for all time - which I think you were referring to in reply #54. That approach also covers the making of images but I have no quarrel with your approach.

The Catechism of The Council of Trent puts it well: But, lest the people, aware of the abrogation of the Mosaic Law, may imagine that the precepts of the Decalogue are no longer obligatory, it should be taught that when God gave the Law to Moses, He did not so much establish a new code, as render more luminous that divine light by which the depraved morals and long-continued perversity of man had at that time almost obscured. It is most certain that we are not bound to obey the Commandments because they were delivered by Moses, but because they are implanted in the hearts of all, and have been explained and confirmed by Christ our Lord. 
(my emboldening)
 
Title: Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
Post by: Cathlodox on Fri Jan 03, 2020 - 06:14:34
Winsome,

AWESOME!!!!
Title: Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
Post by: Amo on Fri Jan 03, 2020 - 09:25:30
The Ten Commandments were not shuffled and renumbered.
If you look at the list in Deuteronony (and Exodus is similar), there are actually 12 commandments.
Deuteronomy 5:7-21
1. You shall have no other gods before me. 
2. You shall not make for yourself a graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is on the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth;
3. you shall not bow down to them or serve them; ……
4 You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain:……..
5. Observe the sabbath day, to keep it holy, as the LORD your God commanded you. ...
6. Honor your father and your mother, ……
7. You shall not kill.
8. Neither shall you commit adultery.
9. Neither shall you steal.
10. Neither shall you bear false witness against your neighbor.
11. Neither shall you covet your neighbor's wife;
12. you shall not desire your neighbor's house, his field, or his manservant, or his maidservant, his ox, or his ass, or anything that is your neighbors.

In order to get to ten some of the commandments have to be conflated into one.
Catholics, Jews and Lutherans conflate 1,2 &3, presumably because they all concern the same topic. Most Protestants (except Lutherans) & Orthodox conflate 2&3, and 11&12 (as do Jews)
 Jews make up 10 because they treat the preceding verse “I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage” as the first “saying” or “declaration”
 (see - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ten_Commandments (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ten_Commandments)).

The Catholic list was (I think) derived from Deuteronomy.All lists have all the same commands in them except Christians do not include Ex 20:2 or Dt 5:6 as the Jews do.

P.S. The link you gave is a typical protestant distortion of the truth.

Exo 34:28  And he was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights; he did neither eat bread, nor drink water. And he wrote upon the tables the words of the covenant, the ten commandments.

Deu 4:13  And he declared unto you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform, even ten commandments; and he wrote them upon two tables of stone.

Deu 10:4  And he wrote on the tables, according to the first writing, the ten commandments, which the LORD spake unto you in the mount out of the midst of the fire in the day of the assembly: and the LORD gave them unto me.

Some people actually believe the testimony of scripture above human speculation and or tradition.
Title: Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
Post by: Amo on Fri Jan 03, 2020 - 09:30:46
All "Moral" or "Natural" Commandments in the Law of Moses are indeed binding on Christians...
...Man is commanded by nature to honor God (god's) & dedicate some type to worship.
...Man was never commanded by nature or set aside a specific time to do this.

Thus, the 3rd Commandment is moral as far as every culture has set aside time to honor it's Deities...
...The Sabbath Commandment required knowledge of it to be communicated supernaturally.
....Like the Day of Atonement, New Moons, Passover, etc. AT SPECIFIC TIMES.

This makes the TIMING ceremonial and subject to change.

The other thing that appears to have been missed by those who adhere to Ellen White's interpretation is that all the examples given of the Apostles going to the Temple or Synagogue are NOT examples of Christian Assembly or Worship. These are only examples of Christians spreading the Gospel where Jew's gathered in mass.


Saint Paul was explicit that Christians were to "ASSEMBLE THEMSELVES TOGETHER".

Hebrews 10, 20
By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh; And having an high priest over the house of God; Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water. Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised;) And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works: Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching. For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

It is unlawful in Judaism to have "a collection" on the Sabbath...
...It's was the same way back then - at the time of the Apostles.
...Scripture is CLEAR that Christians assembled themselves together.

ON THE 1st DAY OF THE WEEK.

1st Corinthians 16, 1 - 3
That's the day the Christians assembled themselves together. Notice also that this isn't a request - it's an Apostolic COMMAND.

Furthermore Scripture is explicit that the assembly above WAS specifically Christian Worship.

1st Corinthians 11, 17
Now in this that I declare unto you I praise you not, that ye come together not for the better, but for the worse.
18 For first of all, when ye come together in the church, I hear that there be divisions among you; and I partly believe it.
19 For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you.
20 When ye come together therefore into one place, this is not to eat the Lord's supper.
21 For in eating every one taketh before other his own supper: and one is hungry, and another is drunken.
22 What? have ye not houses to eat and to drink in? or despise ye the church of God, and shame them that have not? what shall I say to you? shall I praise you in this? I praise you not.
23 For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, that the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread:
24 And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me.
25 After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, this cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me.
26 For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come.

27 Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.
28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup.
29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.

The above would NOT have been done in a Synagogue OR on the Sabbath for the simple fact practicing Jews didn't take up a collection on the Sabbath, period.

Christians meeting on Sunday is of Apostolic origin and claiming otherwise is simply an old anti-Trinitarian teaching.

Quite a bit of extra biblical crap.
Title: Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
Post by: Amo on Fri Jan 03, 2020 - 09:35:28
Hobbie,

The Command to set aside time for God is without doubt part of the Moral or Natural Law...
...This is observed in any culture throughout all of recorded history.
...The specific TIMING of observance is absolutely ceremonial.

Here is how it went down:

"Then said the Lord unto Moses, Behold, I will rain bread from heaven for you; and the people shall go out and gather a certain rate every day, that I may prove them, whether they will walk in my law, or no." Exodus 16,4

Them / They = The Children of Israel and it's at the point of Exodus 16,4 that we 1st find out that God is going to test "the Children of Israel" to see if "THEY" will do what God tells THEM to do.

The Children of Israel didn't know about the Sabbath prior to being informed of it.

Exodus 10,26
Our cattle also shall go with us; there shall not an hoof be left behind; for thereof must we take to serve the Lord our God; and we know not with what we must serve the Lord, until we come thither

So, they didn't know how or in what way they were to worship.

As for the point made about the Catholic Church "renaming" or rearranging the Commandments I'm afraid they were here 1st - by a long shot. If someone wants to following the Talmudic numbering of the 10 Commandments I have no problem with that. Luther numbered the Commandments like the CC did after his separation from the CC.

Sunday is the ceremonial sabbath of human tradition. The seventh day is the Sabbath of God, as identified many times over in scripture. You have chosen and propagate lies. So be it.
Title: Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
Post by: Amo on Fri Jan 03, 2020 - 09:38:43
Hobbie,

The Command to set aside time for God is without doubt part of the Moral or Natural Law...
...This is observed in any culture throughout all of recorded history.
...The specific TIMING of observance is absolutely ceremonial.

Here is how it went down:

"Then said the Lord unto Moses, Behold, I will rain bread from heaven for you; and the people shall go out and gather a certain rate every day, that I may prove them, whether they will walk in my law, or no." Exodus 16,4

Them / They = The Children of Israel and it's at the point of Exodus 16,4 that we 1st find out that God is going to test "the Children of Israel" to see if "THEY" will do what God tells THEM to do.

The Children of Israel didn't know about the Sabbath prior to being informed of it.

Exodus 10,26
Our cattle also shall go with us; there shall not an hoof be left behind; for thereof must we take to serve the Lord our God; and we know not with what we must serve the Lord, until we come thither

So, they didn't know how or in what way they were to worship.

As for the point made about the Catholic Church "renaming" or rearranging the Commandments I'm afraid they were here 1st - by a long shot. If someone wants to following the Talmudic numbering of the 10 Commandments I have no problem with that. Luther numbered the Commandments like the CC did after his separation from the CC.

Natural law, natural law, natural law. Show us your natural law from scripture, we're not papists.
Title: Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
Post by: Amo on Fri Jan 03, 2020 - 09:40:21
What do you mean shuffled and renumbered?

Generally, if you trace SDA theology back to it's roots it's discovered that ultimately they claim "Jesus" was who changed times and laws. I'm not being sarcastic here in the least. Traditional or Historic SDA's don't believe Jesus was God (Like the Father is God) therefore the Trinity is false and given that Jesus didn't have the Authority to fulfill the Sabbath day.

The SDA Pioneers called this quandary 'The Sabbath God Vs. The Sunday God'.

The SDA Pioneers were speaking of "THE FATHER" and the concept was that the Sabbath God was a flesh, bone & functional organ hominid God while the Sunday God was a false 'spirit god' that lacked a body of flesh with intestines. The SDA's would publish articles in the Church papers alerting the reader to know the difference between the Sabbath God and the Sunday God and the critical importance of KNOWING Father God was a flesh God.

[url]http://documents.adventistarchives.org/Periodicals/RH/RH18540307-V05-07.pdf[/url]


More twisted info and lies no doubt.
Title: Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
Post by: Michael2012 on Fri Jan 03, 2020 - 10:15:55
2 And the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed. 3 And Moses said, I will now turn aside, and see this great sight, why the bush is not burnt. 4 And when the Lord saw that he turned aside to see, God called unto him out of the midst of the bush, and said, Moses, Moses. Ex 3:2-4 (KJV)

The angel of the Lord and God in the above are one and the same, both speaking to Moses out of the midst of the bush.

Not really.

Angel of the Lord, it says. That in itself makes some distinction between the angel and the Lord. To deny that is a dishonest reading of scriptures.

Now concerning the Sabbath day worship issue, I'd like you to consider what the scriptures tells us in Colossians 2 about Christians:

8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:

11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:

12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.

16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:


Why then judge others in respect of the Sabbath?
Title: Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
Post by: Jaime on Fri Jan 03, 2020 - 10:57:06
How was the 10 commandments “AGAINST” them? Certainly the 613 man written laws were against them, but the 10 commandments?

The sabbath certainly wasn’t against man, since the sabbath was made FOR man.
Title: Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
Post by: winsome on Fri Jan 03, 2020 - 11:58:13
Exo 34:28  And he was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights; he did neither eat bread, nor drink water. And he wrote upon the tables the words of the covenant, the ten commandments.

Deu 4:13  And he declared unto you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform, even ten commandments; and he wrote them upon two tables of stone.

Deu 10:4  And he wrote on the tables, according to the first writing, the ten commandments, which the LORD spake unto you in the mount out of the midst of the fire in the day of the assembly: and the LORD gave them unto me.

Some people actually believe the testimony of scripture above human speculation and or tradition.
Where in scripture are the individual commandments numbered?
Title: Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
Post by: winsome on Fri Jan 03, 2020 - 12:07:27
Sunday is the ceremonial sabbath of human tradition. The seventh day is the Sabbath of God, as identified many times over in scripture. You have chosen and propagate lies. So be it.
Wrong again  Amo.
Sunday is not the sabbath, ceremonial or otherwise. It was given the the Jews as part of the Mosaic Covenant as a sign of that Covenant.
Christians are in a different Covenant and the day to assemble and worship together is not prescribed. But the early Christians chose to assemble and worship together on Sunday as Cathlodox has amply demonstrated.
Title: Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
Post by: winsome on Fri Jan 03, 2020 - 12:13:08
Quite a bit of extra biblical crap.
Really?
All that scripture is extra biblical?
Doesn't your Bible have 1 Corinthians and Hebrews?
Title: Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
Post by: winsome on Fri Jan 03, 2020 - 12:26:35
Natural law, natural law, natural law. Show us your natural law from scripture, we're not papists.
When Gentiles who have not the law do by nature what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. They show that what the law requires is written on their hearts (Rom 2:14-15)
Title: Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
Post by: Cathlodox on Fri Jan 03, 2020 - 21:12:51
Quote from: Winsome
When Gentiles who have not the law do by nature what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. They show that what the law requires is written on their hearts (Rom 2:14-15)

+ 1

That is explicit that there were moral and ceremonial aspects in "the law".

Well done Winsome!
Title: Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
Post by: beam on Fri Jan 03, 2020 - 21:50:46
How was the 10 commandments “AGAINST” them?
Hi Jamie, I think I have the answer to your question or comment.  Paul writes in 2Cor3 the following:
7 Now if the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone, came with glory, so that the Israelites could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of its glory, transitory though it was,

Paul here is referring to the 10 commandments as the ministry that brought death.  That has to mean that the 10 commandments were against them.   They brought death because not one Israelite was able to keep them.  Even Moses broke them and wasn't allowed to enter Canaan.  All the commandments could do is condemn man.  They could not save anyone.

Quote
The sabbath certainly wasn’t against man, since the sabbath was made FOR man.
Have you ever tried to really keep the Sabbath according to scripture?  Are you able to keep your thoughts on Holy things and turn your foot from doing your own pleasure on the Holy day?  Well, do you think the Israelites were any different than you?   I became a very legalistic SDA after I was baptized.  Every week after Sabbath I critiqued myself and the results were very disappointing.  I always failed to live up to the Biblical standard.  My conversations with other SDAs were like any other day.  My thoughts ran rapid just as they did any other day.  Yes, the Sabbath was against me.  I couldn't do it so why even try.


If you will read the remaining words of Paul in that paragraph 2Cor 3:8-11 you will see that Christians have a new Guide that took the place of the 10 commandments given only to Israel.  The Holy Spirit, Paul writes, is more glorious that the commands written with the finger of God.  He is our guide.  Notice all that is written about the 10 commandments is in past tense.

Quote
Certainly the 613 man written laws were against them, but the 10 commandments?
First of all the 613 laws contained in the book of the law included the 10 commandments.  God dictated the 603 laws to Moses and they contained the laws of love to God and to our fellow man.   Any law that God gives man and he fails to keep is against him.   The 603 were not any different than the 10.  God gave them all to Israel as the laws of the covenant.
Title: Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
Post by: Jaime on Fri Jan 03, 2020 - 22:07:51
After reading some of Jesus’s writings where he refined some of the definitions or filled up the letter with the spirit of the Law, he said if yoir donkey is in a ditch on the sabbath, is it not right to get him out. Also, he said is it not right to do good on the Sabbath, seemingly to imply that it’s a judgement call a lot of times and not a hard and fast rule to trip us up.

God indicated to the israelites several times that if they obeyed him, he would bless them. Deut 11: 26-28. I don’t believe he ever expected PERFECT obedience. If he did, it seems rather unfair for him to expect perfection, with them incapable of perfection. It isn’t reasonable to say God expected perfect obedience when man is incapable of that. The verse in Deut 11 indicates that God would have indeed blessed their obedience. Whatever that would look like. He did as always expect an effort which a lot of times they simply gave up or didn’t try.
Title: Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
Post by: Michael2012 on Sat Jan 04, 2020 - 05:39:29
Quote from: Michael
Now concerning the Sabbath day worship issue, I'd like you to consider what the scriptures tells us in Colossians 2 about Christians:

8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:

11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:

12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.

16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:

Jaime commented:

How was the 10 commandments “AGAINST” them? Certainly the 613 man written laws were against them, but the 10 commandments?

The sabbath certainly wasn’t against man, since the sabbath was made FOR man.

2 Cor.3 :6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:

8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?

9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.

10 For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth.


In the above quoted passage, one could see two ministration spoken of. In verse 6, we can identify them as one of the letter and the other of the spirit. If you'll accept, Paul takes reference to the ministry of the Law (Law of Moses, of the letter), and to the ministry of the Spirit (of the spirit).

Now, the ten commandments are included and embodied in the Law of Moses. As such they are of the ministry of the Law. Paul speaks of this ministry of the Law as being of the letter and that which killeth (v.6). So that in verse 7, Paul calls it the ministration of death. He also calls it the ministration of condemnation. Now, don't you see it and agree then that the Law given to Israel through Moses, which were written and engraven in stones, is AGAINST them (Israel), which brought them condemnation and death? As Paul explicitly declared concerning the ministry of the Law, that is, "the letter killeth".

Needless to say, concerning the Sabbath commandment, being one among the ten commandments, it too then is against them. 
Title: Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
Post by: Michael2012 on Sat Jan 04, 2020 - 06:16:05
After reading some of Jesus’s writings where he refined some of the definitions or filled up the letter with the spirit of the Law, he said if yoir donkey is in a ditch on the sabbath, is it not right to get him out. Also, he said is it not right to do good on the Sabbath, seemingly to imply that it’s a judgement call a lot of times and not a hard and fast rule to trip us up.

God indicated to the israelites several times that if they obeyed him, he would bless them. Deut 11: 26-28. I don’t believe he ever expected PERFECT obedience. If he did, it seems rather unfair for him to expect perfection, with them incapable of perfection. It isn’t reasonable to say God expected perfect obedience when man is incapable of that. The verse in Deut 11 indicates that God would have indeed blessed their obedience. Whatever that would look like. He did as always expect an effort which a lot of times they simply gave up or didn’t try.

After reading scriptures, I came to the knowledge that the former covenant that God made with Israel, when He took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, was replaced with a new covenant. Paul, in 2 Cor.3, speaks of the former covenant as a ministration of condemnation and death, and speaks of the new covenant as the ministration of righteousness and life. The former is said to be of the letter that killeth and the new is said to be of the spirit and gives life.

You said "I don’t believe he ever expected PERFECT obedience" and reason to argue that "If he did, it seems rather unfair for him to expect perfection, with them incapable of perfection." Well that may well be what one will think if one looks at the man in the likeness of what had become of the first Adam. On the other hand, I see the Word (John 1:1, 14), who had become like one of us in the person of Jesus, the second Adam.

You see, the Law was given because of transgressions. In other words, if not of transgressions, the Law would not had been given. For Paul, in his first letter to Timothy, said this about the Law:

9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,

10 For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;


Now with regards your other statement where you said "The verse in Deut 11 indicates that God would have indeed blessed their obedience.". In my take, it presents the principle/law, that obedience brings about blessing and disobedience brings about curse. 
Title: Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
Post by: beam on Sat Jan 04, 2020 - 06:34:55
Exactly Michael.  If only those who still believe Christians are under the laws of the Sinai covenant would read what that covenant was all about they would see it in a different light.  God, in EX19:5-6, speaking directly to Moses told Moses what the covenant was all about.   5 Now if you obey me fully and keep my covenant, then out of all nations you will be my treasured possession. Although the whole earth is mine, 6 you[a (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=ex19&version=NIVUK#fen-NIVUK-2033a)] will be for me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.” These are the words you are to speak to the Israelites.’   Not one word that God spoke in verses 5 and 6 said that the covenant would save one Israelite.  Salvation came to the Israelites just as it did for Abraham.  The covenant was not about salvation.


And yet we have the leader of the SDA church, Ellen White, telling us that we will be lost if we do not observe the Sabbath.  Old covenant Sabbath keeping had nothing to do with salvation.  How did it morph into being a salvational issue?  It all happened by a group of people that didn't understand scripture.  Today, no matter how much scripture we present to the otherwise, blinders are so perfectly fitted on Adventists they keep most of them from seeing the truth.
Title: Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
Post by: Jaime on Sat Jan 04, 2020 - 07:08:05
I’m not arguing salvation. I am arguing why would God expect perfect obedience from beings incapable of perfect obedience? Scripture said he will bless them if they obey and curse them if they don’t. (Except for the small issue that they CAN’T). Again, not at all talking about salvation. The Law was never about salvation. At the very best, their sins were only temporarily atoned for until the next annual sacrifice on the day of Atonement. Of course we all agree Christ’s sacrifice was once and for for all.

By the way, blinders also fit many that aren’t SDA. If not the pages of this entire forum would be empty or at least in full agreement. Hardly any topic falls in that category.
Title: Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
Post by: beam on Sat Jan 04, 2020 - 07:08:29
After reading some of Jesus’s writings where he refined some of the definitions or filled up the letter with the spirit of the Law, he said if yoir donkey is in a ditch on the sabbath, is it not right to get him out. Also, he said is it not right to do good on the Sabbath, seemingly to imply that it’s a judgement call a lot of times and not a hard and fast rule to trip us up.

God indicated to the israelites several times that if they obeyed him, he would bless them. Deut 11: 26-28. I don’t believe he ever expected PERFECT obedience. If he did, it seems rather unfair for him to expect perfection, with them incapable of perfection. It isn’t reasonable to say God expected perfect obedience when man is incapable of that. The verse in Deut 11 indicates that God would have indeed blessed their obedience. Whatever that would look like. He did as always expect an effort which a lot of times they simply gave up or didn’t try.
Hi Jamie, Jesus didn't live under the new covenant of Grace, He lived under the laws of the Sinai covenant as did all the Jews He came to teach and save.  His words to them had to be in sink with the laws they lived under.  When we understand that we then can understand what happened after Calvary.  Jesus, at His death, fulfilled the new covenant prophecy of Jeremiah 31.  He ratified the new covenant with His own blood.  He appointed Paul to be His ambassador to explain the new way of life and and eternal life.  Paul preached that the works of the Law could not save one soul and that Christians are not under the laws of the Sinai covenant.  Gal 3 is one of the best chapters to learn this fact.

The plan of salvation was formulated before the foundation of the Earth.  God knew man would fail and Jesus had to come, take on our sins, die and overcome the grave so that all men might also have eternal life.   Why He used man the way it happened is beyond our pay grade.  Why He set up a nation that failed the laws He gave them, but furnished the lineage of the One who became our Savior will be one of the questions I will like for Jesus to answer.  It was and is the way of the Plan of Salvation.  I accept it on faith.
Title: Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
Post by: 4WD on Sat Jan 04, 2020 - 07:33:30
Why He used man the way it happened is beyond our pay grade.  Why He set up a nation that failed the laws He gave them, but furnished the lineage of the One who became our Savior will be one of the questions I will like for Jesus to answer. 
It is not beyond our pay grade at all.  It is not at all unknown.  Paul described all of that quite nicely in his writings, most specifically in Romans 9-11.
Title: Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
Post by: Jaime on Sat Jan 04, 2020 - 07:43:21
Again Beam, I wasn’t and haven’t been talking about salvation. I am talking about COULD the Jews have obeyed in order to be blessed by God and not cursed? I say YES or God was a liar in making the promise to them. Would it have to be perfect obedience? Obviously NOT if they are incapable of that.
Title: Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
Post by: beam on Sat Jan 04, 2020 - 08:34:57
It is not beyond our pay grade at all.  It is not at all unknown.  Paul described all of that quite nicely in his writings, most specifically in Romans 9-11.
Thanks, I will look into those chapters.
Title: Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
Post by: Jaime on Sat Jan 04, 2020 - 08:54:30
Without those chapters, pretty much nothing about the Jews makes any sense. And for some reason some of the most ignored verses in the NT.
Title: Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
Post by: beam on Sat Jan 04, 2020 - 09:03:33
Again Beam, I wasn’t and haven’t been talking about salvation. I am talking about COULD the Jews have obeyed in order to be blessed by God and not cursed? I say YES or God was a liar in making the promise to them. Would it have to be perfect obedience? Obviously NOT if they are incapable of that.
Apparently not Jamie.  If they could have God would not have given Jeremiah a prophecy about a new and better covenant and all the prophecies about Jesus coming to give them another chance that are found in the Old Testament.  God's curse was always temporary if He really did curse them.  The Israelites liked to put the blame on others, but they brought their troubles on themselves.  God allowed bad things to happen and if that was a curse on them...?  After they built the golden calf God was going to destroy all of them.  Moses pleaded with Him not to and He relented.  Had God destroyed the Israelites there at Sinai would Jesus have come through some other lineage?  Is that a question that Paul answered in Romans 9-11?  I understand you are not talking about salvation, but did their failure keep all the laws keep them from being saved?
Title: Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
Post by: Michael2012 on Sat Jan 04, 2020 - 09:12:46
Exactly Michael.  If only those who still believe Christians are under the laws of the Sinai covenant would read what that covenant was all about they would see it in a different light.  God, in EX19:5-6, speaking directly to Moses told Moses what the covenant was all about.   5 Now if you obey me fully and keep my covenant, then out of all nations you will be my treasured possession. Although the whole earth is mine, 6 you[a (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=ex19&version=NIVUK#fen-NIVUK-2033a)] will be for me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.” These are the words you are to speak to the Israelites.’   Not one word that God spoke in verses 5 and 6 said that the covenant would save one Israelite.  Salvation came to the Israelites just as it did for Abraham.  The covenant was not about salvation.


And yet we have the leader of the SDA church, Ellen White, telling us that we will be lost if we do not observe the Sabbath.  Old covenant Sabbath keeping had nothing to do with salvation.  How did it morph into being a salvational issue?  It all happened by a group of people that didn't understand scripture.  Today, no matter how much scripture we present to the otherwise, blinders are so perfectly fitted on Adventists they keep most of them from seeing the truth.

I don't quite get it, if there are Christians who believe to still be under the laws of the Sinai covenant. Perhaps they were taught wrongly and had been deceived, or had not been reading the scriptures. For it is made clear in the scriptures that the Sinai covenant, that is, the covenant God made with Israel when He took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, was replaced by a new covenant, whose mediator is Jesus Christ. Paul had spoken of these two covenants, the former being that which that killeth and the new being that which gives life. The Christian would have no reason to deny this as it is clear in scriptures. I am inclined to believe that no sane man would choose to be under that which brings him condemnation and death over that which gives life, more so, teach and try to convince people that they should believe that Christians are still under the Law or the Sinai covenant, unless they are deceived or brain washed.

Of course it is not difficult at all to discern that the teaching that the Christian will be lost if he/she do not observe the Sabbath, is a false teaching. It is false in that it simply isn't found in scriptures. I am inclined to conclude that those who believes this teaching that you say of Ms. Ellen White have such concern of the Sabbath keeping as essential to their being saved. This leads me to think that should they not observe it as they thought how it should be observed, they will lose their salvation. I wonder if they had the same concern with the rest of God's commandments.

And saying that their salvation will be lost by that, it is implied that they had at the start attained to salvation. And I'd guess that in the start, they attained salvation through the only way it could be attained, that is through faith, repenting unto God and towards faith in Jesus Christ. I'm thinking, if this were the case, how is it that they believe that they can lose it by not keeping or not observing the Sabbath? For if at all it is lost and is lost by that, how can they attain to it again? And if by not observing the Sabbath they lose salvation, that would mean that they will likewise lose it by not observing any other commandment of God. That's really a most sad and most miserable situation, no different from the Jews, who had fallen from grace, by choosing to be under the Law. Now, if they are like the Jews in that sense, and we read in scriptures that the Jews are called to repentance unto God and towards faith in Jesus Christ for salvation, should we not then tell them to repent unto God and towards faith Jesus Christ or remind them from whence they begun, that is, in the Spirit?
Title: Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
Post by: Jaime on Sat Jan 04, 2020 - 09:23:28
I am not a Sabbatarian, but if one is taught like the SDAs that the Papacy is the beast and Sunday worship is the mark of the beast and Sabbath worship is the mark or seal of God, it’s not hard to see how they think.
Title: Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
Post by: Michael2012 on Sat Jan 04, 2020 - 09:32:36
Again Beam, I wasn’t and haven’t been talking about salvation. I am talking about COULD the Jews have obeyed in order to be blessed by God and not cursed? I say YES or God was a liar in making the promise to them. Would it have to be perfect obedience? Obviously NOT if they are incapable of that.

As for me, and as I said Jaime, in my take, it presents the principle/law, that obedience brings about blessing and disobedience brings about curse.

But to your satisfaction (I hope), let me point out what is said in the scriptures which refutes your belief regarding that.

Deut.11: 26 Behold, I set before you this day a blessing and a curse;

27 A blessing, if ye obey the commandments of the Lord your God, which I command you this day:

28 And a curse, if ye will not obey the commandments of the Lord your God, but turn aside out of the way which I command you this day, to go after other gods, which ye have not known.


Verse 27 says "if you obey the commandments". Would that not suggest all commandments and not some? If you go to verse 8, this is clear, for it says " Therefore shall ye keep all the commandments which I command you this day, that ye may be strong, and go in and possess the land, whither ye go to possess it;"

Would it have to be perfect obedience? The answer is clear Jaime. YES.
Title: Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
Post by: Jaime on Sat Jan 04, 2020 - 11:23:31
Would the directive be from God to a people incapable of compliance? Apparently so. Odd wouldn’t you say! I say God would know their hearts as he does today. Wouldn’t have to be absolute perfect obedience. Why would he require perfect obedience from beings incapable of perfect obedience? God’s graciousness was present in the OT as well. God is unchanging.
Title: Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
Post by: Amo on Sat Jan 04, 2020 - 11:46:51
Not really.

Angel of the Lord, it says. That in itself makes some distinction between the angel and the Lord. To deny that is a dishonest reading of scriptures.

Now concerning the Sabbath day worship issue, I'd like you to consider what the scriptures tells us in Colossians 2 about Christians:

8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:

11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:

12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.

16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:


Why then judge others in respect of the Sabbath?

So, are you saying there was an angel and the Lord in the midst of the bush? The scripture does not say that either. Perhaps the purpose of the scripture was to point out that the angel of the Lord is the Lord, which seems to be suggested in other scriptures as well.

Now concerning your comments regarding Colossians, are you suggesting that one of the ten commandments spoken by the mouth of God and written with His own finger are in the category of philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world?

The ten commandments are not addressed at all in Colossians 2. Colossians 2 is addressing philosophy, vain deceit, traditions, and the rudiments of this world. God's sabbath is none of those things. Nor is it any of the things pointed out which I highlighted in the following verses of Colossians 2.

Col 2:16  Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: 17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ. 18 Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind, 19 And not holding the Head, from which all the body by joints and bands having nourishment ministered, and knit together, increaseth with the increase of God. 20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances, 21 (Touch not; taste not; handle not; 22 Which all are to perish with the using;) after the commandments and doctrines of men? 23 Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body; not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh.

God's sabbath has nothing to do with the commandments of men. It is no surprise that those who reject the authority of God's sabbath, twist a scripture definitely referring to ceremonial sabbaths into one referring to God's sabbath, while they twist other scriptures referring to God's sabbath into ones referring to ceremony alone.

You should heed the words of the first angel given in Revelation 14 -

Rev 14:6  And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people, 7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.

God gave us His Sabbath to do this very thing.

Exo 20:8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: 10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: 11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

All those who reject God's sabbath reject the basic fundamentals of the gospel of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ Himself created the world and established His sabbath at the end of that creation as a day of worship and a memorial of our Creator. The everlasting gospel includes this most basic worship and acknowledgment of humanities proper relation to the God they profess.

Put down the golden cup of abominations, and stop partaking of the wine of Babylon that is within it. Abandon the man of sin, and the times and laws he has set up in the place of God's. Come out of Babylon and worship God, not the beast which she rides. Worship God through obedience to His times and law, not the beast through obedience to the times and laws of the man of sin. Would you be in the new heaven and new earth, to partake of the tree of life once again.

Rev 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. 13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. 15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie. 16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.

Isa 66:22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain. 23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.

Worship God on the day He has sanctified and chosen as a sign that He is the one who sancitifies you.

Gen 2:1 Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them. 2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made. 3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

Exo 31:13  Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying, Verily my sabbaths ye shall keep: for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that ye may know that I am the LORD that doth sanctify you.

God alone can sanctify and save humanity. Worship Him in following the living example of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. Abandon the man of sin and his institution Babylon the Great, which rides the beast unto perdition. Abandon the abominations found in her wine which testify that sinners may sanctify a day by observing it in place of the day which God Himself sanctified. Accept the sanctification of God in and through the obedience of His Son Jesus Christ, who alone can sanctify humanity, and abandon the false gospel of humanity itself sanctifying and or saving itself by their own gospel and actions. Emphasis in the following quote is mine.

Quote
CATECHISM OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH.

2186 Those Christians who have leisure should be mindful of their brethren who have the same needs and the same rights, yet cannot rest from work because of poverty and misery. Sunday is traditionally consecrated by Christian piety to good works and humble service of the sick, the infirm, and the elderly. Christians will also sanctify Sunday by devoting time and care to their families and relatives, often difficult to do on other days of the week. Sunday is a time for reflection, silence, cultivation of the mind, and meditation which furthers the growth of the Christian interior life.

2187 Sanctifying Sundays and holy days requires a common effort. Every Christian should avoid making unnecessary demands on others that would hinder them from observing the Lord's Day. Traditional activities (sport, restaurants, etc.), and social necessities (public services, etc.), require some people to work on Sundays, but everyone should still take care to set aside sufficient time for leisure. With temperance and charity the faithful will see to it that they avoid the excesses and violence sometimes associated with popular leisure activities. In spite of economic constraints, public authorities should ensure citizens a time intended for rest and divine worship. Employers have a similar obligation toward their employees.

2188 In respecting religious liberty and the common good of all, Christians should seek recognition of Sundays and the Church's holy days as legal holidays. They have to give everyone a public example of prayer, respect, and joy and defend their traditions as a precious contribution to the spiritual life of society. If a country's legislation or other reasons require work on Sunday, the day should nevertheless be lived as the day of our deliverance which lets us share in this "festal gathering," this "assembly of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven."[125]

Humanity cannot sanctify anything in and of themselves. They cannot sanctify Sundays by doing or not doing anything on that day. Nor can they be sanctified in any way shape or form by adhering to man made traditions regardless of any claims to the contrary.

God alone can sanctify anything. He has sanctified the seventh day and it is so. He has called His own to rest in His sanctification on that day. Those who obey by faith may be sanctified by God in and though our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ who sanctified His body once and for all in His life, death, and resurrection. Salvation has come though our Lord's obedience. Following in His footsteps by faith alone can sanctify or save anyone. None will sanctify or save themselves by their own actions in relation to things which God never commanded or called for in His faithful. Such is the false gospel of the man of sin, his institution Babylon the Great, and his law enforcer the final beast of biblical prophecy.

Rom 5:17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.) 18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. 19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Heb 10:5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me: 6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure. 7 Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God. 8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law; 9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second. 10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. 11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins: 12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God; 13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool. 14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified. 15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before, 16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them; 17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more. 18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.

If you are of the body of Christ and follow in His footsteps by faith, then you are sanctified and saved. He alone can and will sanctify those who are willing to pick up their crosses and follow Him. The laws of God were in His heart and mind, and He did fulfill them in our human flesh. The true gospel is about putting those same laws into the hearts and minds of HIs followers unto sanctification by faith. The false gospel and wine of Babylon are about sanctification and salvation through human effort and compliance to human traditions. Cain and Abel both brought offerings before God, but only one was accepted being by faith in and therefore obedience to the command and example of God Himself. Which was an offering pointing to the pure and unadulterated faith and obedience of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ Himself. An obedience even unto death.

Php 2:5  Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: 6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: 7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: 8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. 9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: 10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; 11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Flee from Babylon. You cannot sanctify a day or anything else for that matter, by your actions or faith in things that are not of God. Jesus Christ is of God. Pick up your crosses and follow Him. Examine His life and teachings and follow them. Paul is not your savior. Submit his writings to the life and teachings of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, not the other way around, or you will be lost.

Joh 12:44 Jesus cried and said, He that believeth on me, believeth not on me, but on him that sent me. 45 And he that seeth me seeth him that sent me. 46 I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness. 47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world. 48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day. 49 For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak. 50 And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.

Heb 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, 2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; 3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

Get your priorities straight. Submit all the words of apostles and prophets to the words of Jesus Christ who alone has, does, and will sanctify His own. Do not submit the gospel of Jesus Christ to the many different interpretations of the words of prophets and apostles, but submit all to the words of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

Joh 14:6  Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Mar 2:27 And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath: 28 Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath.


God's sabbath was established by Jesus Christ our Lord who is verily God, at the end of creation for humanity. He taught its proper observance while here as one of us, predicted its observance after his death, and proclaimed that His law would not change until heaven and earth passed. Follow Jesus Christ, not one of the numerous false interpretations of for the most part, the words of the apostle Paul. Heed the following words from Paul himself.

1Co 1:12 Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ 13 Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul? 14 I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius; 15 Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name.

Listen to Paul. Judge his words by Jesus' words, not the other way around.

2Pe 3:14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless. 15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; 16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

Heed the above warning from Peter concerning the words of the apostle Paul. Examine Paul's words in light of and contrast to the words of Jesus Christ that you may properly divide the word of God. Not the other way around which leads to destruction.



 

Title: Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
Post by: Amo on Sat Jan 04, 2020 - 12:06:38
Hi Cathlodox,
I don't disagree with any of that.

I usually approach SDAs and their Sabbath keeping by pointing out that the Old Law (of the Mosaic Covenant) has been abolished/abrogated/ended and that includes the Ten Commandments as Covenant law. The moral commands that are codified in the Ten Commandments are still applicable because they reflect the Natural Moral Law which exists for all people for all time - which I think you were referring to in reply #54. That approach also covers the making of images but I have no quarrel with your approach.

The Catechism of The Council of Trent puts it well: But, lest the people, aware of the abrogation of the Mosaic Law, may imagine that the precepts of the Decalogue are no longer obligatory, it should be taught that when God gave the Law to Moses, He did not so much establish a new code, as render more luminous that divine light by which the depraved morals and long-continued perversity of man had at that time almost obscured. It is most certain that we are not bound to obey the Commandments because they were delivered by Moses, but because they are implanted in the hearts of all, and have been explained and confirmed by Christ our Lord. 
(my emboldening)

Many of us do not worship or believe according to The Council of Trent. The commandments including the fourth did not come to us through Moses but rather through the voice and hand of God Himself. God never did away with any of His commandments according to scripture. If He had, who are you or anyone else to say which ones He did and which ones He did not without a scripture to support such?Not only have Sunday keepers done this in taking it upon themselves to tell others what God has changed and what He has not according to their own understanding, but they have presumed to force such upon all through civil legislation. Insisting that God not only changed the day of observance, but apparently appointed them to force compliance to their self proclaimed change upon all. Go figure.
Title: Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
Post by: beam on Sat Jan 04, 2020 - 12:42:08
I am not a Sabbatarian, but if one is taught like the SDAs that the Papacy is the beast and Sunday worship is the mark of the beast and Sabbath worship is the mark or seal of God, it’s not hard to see how they think.
Absolutely Jamie.  That is what I was taught and by the Grace of God after serving the SDA church faithfully for 37 years the cracks I had observed during those years began to open so that I could plainly see the discrepancies.  Careful study and the help of those who left the church before me have brought me into the light of the true Gospel of Jesus.   
We are to go tell it on the mountain and over the plains.  That is why I am here pounding the keys.
Title: Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
Post by: Amo on Sat Jan 04, 2020 - 12:43:57
I don't quite get it, if there are Christians who believe to still be under the laws of the Sinai covenant. Perhaps they were taught wrongly and had been deceived, or had not been reading the scriptures. For it is made clear in the scriptures that the Sinai covenant, that is, the covenant God made with Israel when He took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, was replaced by a new covenant, whose mediator is Jesus Christ. Paul had spoken of these two covenants, the former being that which that killeth and the new being that which gives life. The Christian would have no reason to deny this as it is clear in scriptures. I am inclined to believe that no sane man would choose to be under that which brings him condemnation and death over that which gives life, more so, teach and try to convince people that they should believe that Christians are still under the Law or the Sinai covenant, unless they are deceived or brain washed.

Of course it is not difficult at all to discern that the teaching that the Christian will be lost if he/she do not observe the Sabbath, is a false teaching. It is false in that it simply isn't found in scriptures. I am inclined to conclude that those who believes this teaching that you say of Ms. Ellen White have such concern of the Sabbath keeping as essential to their being saved. This leads me to think that should they not observe it as they thought how it should be observed, they will lose their salvation. I wonder if they had the same concern with the rest of God's commandments.

And saying that their salvation will be lost by that, it is implied that they had at the start attained to salvation. And I'd guess that in the start, they attained salvation through the only way it could be attained, that is through faith, repenting unto God and towards faith in Jesus Christ. I'm thinking, if this were the case, how is it that they believe that they can lose it by not keeping or not observing the Sabbath? For if at all it is lost and is lost by that, how can they attain to it again? And if by not observing the Sabbath they lose salvation, that would mean that they will likewise lose it by not observing any other commandment of God. That's really a most sad and most miserable situation, no different from the Jews, who had fallen from grace, by choosing to be under the Law. Now, if they are like the Jews in that sense, and we read in scriptures that the Jews are called to repentance unto God and towards faith in Jesus Christ for salvation, should we not then tell them to repent unto God and towards faith Jesus Christ or remind them from whence they begun, that is, in the Spirit?

You do not properly divide the word of God. So are all who lived under the instructions of God mind you, during the old covenant lost unto eternal death according to that covenant? If it was purely a covenant of death appointed by God, then that should be the case, should it not. No, but those of the false gospel according to the twisted words of the apostle Paul simply ignore his own words and others which contradict said false gospel.

Her 4:1 Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it. 2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it. 3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world. 4 For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works. 5 And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest. 6 Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief: 7 Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts. 8 For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day. 9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God. 10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his. 11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief. 12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. 13 Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do.

The first covenant included more than just laws. It included a sanctuary and sacrifices which all pointed to the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. By which only the children of Israel were saved from their sins as all are to this very day. They had to look forward to such by faith, we look back upon such by faith. They awaited the promise, we believe n the fulfillment of the promise. You do not properly understand the law or the gospel, that both are crucial too and point out the way of salvation. You think God Himself established a faulty covenant that needed to be changed rather than a covenant that was meant to be fulfilled unto change. You think the fault with that covenant was with God rather than with Israel. You are wrong on both accounts.

Eze 18:20  The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him. 21 But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die. 22 All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live. 23 Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord GOD: and not that he should return from his ways, and live? 24 But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die. 25 Yet ye say, The way of the Lord is not equal. Hear now, O house of Israel; Is not my way equal? are not your ways unequal? 26 When a righteous man turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die. 27 Again, when the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive. 28 Because he considereth, and turneth away from all his transgressions that he hath committed, he shall surely live, he shall not die. 29 Yet saith the house of Israel, The way of the Lord is not equal. O house of Israel, are not my ways equal? are not your ways unequal? 30 Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, saith the Lord GOD. Repent, and turn yourselves from all your transgressions; so iniquity shall not be your ruin. 31 Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel? 32 For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye.

Are you not like unto the Israel of old declaring that the ways of the Lord are not equal? That He made a covenant of death upon some, and then later of life upon others? There is and only ever has been one gospel of God. Forgiveness of sins and salvation in Christ Jesus alone. This unto repentance and obedience, not unto indifference and lawlessness, or legalism and enforced man made tradition. This is what it seems you preach, correct me if I am wrong please.
Title: Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
Post by: Amo on Sat Jan 04, 2020 - 12:54:59
Absolutely Jamie.  That is what I was taught and by the Grace of God after serving the SDA church faithfully for 37 years the cracks I had observed during those years began to open so that I could plainly see the discrepancies.  Careful study and the help of those who left the church before me have brought me into the light of the true Gospel of Jesus.   
We are to go tell it on the mountain and over the plains.  That is why I am here pounding the keys.

The Catholic Church isn't actually the beast. It is Babylon the Great, the woman who rides beasts. In believing this SDA's have simply continued Protestant thought as expressed by them in word and writing many many times over. You have not left these truths through careful study, you have simply abandon the testimony of Christians from the past who were literally cut off from society, persecuted, imprisoned, tortured, burned at the stake, and murdered enmass by Kings, Queens, and governments manipulated by Babylon the Great. So be it. Serve your masters well. Apostasy among professed Protestants had to come of course, before Babylon could rise to power again, with their aid and approval. You are simply part of said apostasy.
Title: Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
Post by: Amo on Sat Jan 04, 2020 - 13:40:17
Wrong again  Amo.
Sunday is not the sabbath, ceremonial or otherwise. It was given the the Jews as part of the Mosaic Covenant as a sign of that Covenant.
Christians are in a different Covenant and the day to assemble and worship together is not prescribed. But the early Christians chose to assemble and worship together on Sunday as Cathlodox has amply demonstrated.

BALONEY! The Sabbath was established at creation 2000 years before there ever was a Jew. You simply choose to believe Christ spoke this sabbath into existence, or established it for no apparent reason at all. That is your choice, not scriptural testimony. Christ reminded the Jews of this day He established at creation when He formed them as a nation and lead them as His people. During the old covenant He had His prophets pronounce a blessing upon all including non Jews who would keep His sabbath. The same prophet even connected this blessing to his prophecies concerning the gentiles who would be brought into the fold during the new covenant within whom God the Father through His Son Jesus Christ, would write His law upon their hearts and in their minds. That law of course included the fourth commandment. This same prophet also observed that Jesus' sabbath would be kept in the new heaven and new earth. When Jesus came to earth He kept His sabbath, as Lord of it, and taught others its true meaning and proper observance. He also informed all that He did not come to change or destroy His law but fulfill it.  Saying also that it would not change until heaven and earth passed. You simply deny this because you don't like where it leads.

Cathlodox has not amply demonstrated anything but to those of his own extra biblical persuasion. The simple mention of the first day of the week in connection with certain activities does not support the abolishment of one of the commandments of God and or the institution of another worship day among early "Christians". If such is suggestive of establishing a particular day of worship, then the seventh day sabbath is without question the new covenant day of worship being mentioned in new testament scripture in connection to worship many multiple times more than the first day of the week.

Mat 12:1  At that time Jesus went on the sabbath day through the corn; and his disciples were an hungred, and began to pluck the ears of corn, and to eat.

Mat 12:2  But when the Pharisees saw it, they said unto him, Behold, thy disciples do that which is not lawful to do upon the sabbath day.

Mat 12:5  Or have ye not read in the law, how that on the sabbath days the priests in the temple profane the sabbath, and are blameless?

Mat 12:8  For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day.

Mat 12:10  And, behold, there was a man which had his hand withered. And they asked him, saying, Is it lawful to heal on the sabbath days? that they might accuse him.

Mat 12:11  And he said unto them, What man shall there be among you, that shall have one sheep, and if it fall into a pit on the sabbath day, will he not lay hold on it, and lift it out?

Mat 12:12  How much then is a man better than a sheep? Wherefore it is lawful to do well on the sabbath days.

Mat 24:20  But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

Mat 28:1  In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre.

Mar 1:21  And they went into Capernaum; and straightway on the sabbath day he entered into the synagogue, and taught.

Mar 2:23  And it came to pass, that he went through the corn fields on the sabbath day; and his disciples began, as they went, to pluck the ears of corn.

Mar 2:24  And the Pharisees said unto him, Behold, why do they on the sabbath day that which is not lawful?

Mar 2:27  And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath:

Mar 2:28  Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath.

Mar 3:2  And they watched him, whether he would heal him on the sabbath day; that they might accuse him.

Mar 3:4  And he saith unto them, Is it lawful to do good on the sabbath days, or to do evil? to save life, or to kill? But they held their peace.

Mar 6:2  And when the sabbath day was come, he began to teach in the synagogue: and many hearing him were astonished, saying, From whence hath this man these things? and what wisdom is this which is given unto him, that even such mighty works are wrought by his hands?

Mar 15:42  And now when the even was come, because it was the preparation, that is, the day before the sabbath,

Mar 16:1  And when the sabbath was past, Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James, and Salome, had bought sweet spices, that they might come and anoint him.

Luk 4:16  And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read.

Luk 4:31  And came down to Capernaum, a city of Galilee, and taught them on the sabbath days.

Luk 6:1  And it came to pass on the second sabbath after the first, that he went through the corn fields; and his disciples plucked the ears of corn, and did eat, rubbing them in their hands.

Luk 6:2  And certain of the Pharisees said unto them, Why do ye that which is not lawful to do on the sabbath days?

Luk 6:5  And he said unto them, That the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath.

Luk 6:6  And it came to pass also on another sabbath, that he entered into the synagogue and taught: and there was a man whose right hand was withered.

Luk 6:7  And the scribes and Pharisees watched him, whether he would heal on the sabbath day; that they might find an accusation against him.

Luk 6:9  Then said Jesus unto them, I will ask you one thing; Is it lawful on the sabbath days to do good, or to do evil? to save life, or to destroy it?

Luk 13:10  And he was teaching in one of the synagogues on the sabbath.

Luk 13:14  And the ruler of the synagogue answered with indignation, because that Jesus had healed on the sabbath day, and said unto the people, There are six days in which men ought to work: in them therefore come and be healed, and not on the sabbath day.

Luk 13:15  The Lord then answered him, and said, Thou hypocrite, doth not each one of you on the sabbath loose his ox or his ass from the stall, and lead him away to watering?

Luk 13:16  And ought not this woman, being a daughter of Abraham, whom Satan hath bound, lo, these eighteen years, be loosed from this bond on the sabbath day?

Luk 14:1  And it came to pass, as he went into the house of one of the chief Pharisees to eat bread on the sabbath day, that they watched him.

Luk 14:3  And Jesus answering spake unto the lawyers and Pharisees, saying, Is it lawful to heal on the sabbath day?

Luk 14:5  And answered them, saying, Which of you shall have an ass or an ox fallen into a pit, and will not straightway pull him out on the sabbath day?

Luk 23:54  And that day was the preparation, and the sabbath drew on.

Luk 23:56  And they returned, and prepared spices and ointments; and rested the sabbath day according to the commandment.

Joh 5:9  And immediately the man was made whole, and took up his bed, and walked: and on the same day was the sabbath.

Joh 5:10  The Jews therefore said unto him that was cured, It is the sabbath day: it is not lawful for thee to carry thy bed.

Joh 5:16  And therefore did the Jews persecute Jesus, and sought to slay him, because he had done these things on the sabbath day.

Joh 5:18  Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.

Joh 7:23  If a man on the sabbath day receive circumcision, that the law of Moses should not be broken; are ye angry at me, because I have made a man every whit whole on the sabbath day?

Joh 9:14  And it was the sabbath day when Jesus made the clay, and opened his eyes.

Joh 9:16  Therefore said some of the Pharisees, This man is not of God, because he keepeth not the sabbath day. Others said, How can a man that is a sinner do such miracles? And there was a division among them.

Joh 19:31  The Jews therefore, because it was the preparation, that the bodies should not remain upon the cross on the sabbath day, (for that sabbath day was an high day,) besought Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away.

Act 1:12  Then returned they unto Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet, which is from Jerusalem a sabbath day's journey.

Act 13:14  But when they departed from Perga, they came to Antioch in Pisidia, and went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and sat down.

Act 13:27  For they that dwell at Jerusalem, and their rulers, because they knew him not, nor yet the voices of the prophets which are read every sabbath day, they have fulfilled them in condemning him.

Act 13:42  And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath.

Act 13:44  And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God.

Act 15:21  For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.

Act 16:13  And on the sabbath we went out of the city by a river side, where prayer was wont to be made; and we sat down, and spake unto the women which resorted thither.

Act 17:2  And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures,

Act 18:4  And he reasoned in the synagogue every sabbath, and persuaded the Jews and the Greeks.

The sabbath and sabbath worship is addressed many more times in the new testament than Sunday or the first day of the week. Many of the verse are in direct relation to proper sabbath observance, and none of the are ever about changing the sabbath day or getting rid of it altogether. The breaking of bread you refer to as a sign that Sunday was a new day of worship is irrelevant since the scriptures clearly state that they broke bread daily from house to house.

Act 2:42 And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers. 43 And fear came upon every soul: and many wonders and signs were done by the apostles. 44 And all that believed were together, and had all things common; 45 And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need. 46 And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart,

You know this, you just choose to ignore it because you want things to be different than they were to support your argument. Some one has already pointed out the fault of your conclusions based upon individuals setting aside money themselves on the first day of the week. They did not gather to take up collection as you suggest. Nevertheless you ignore this because it isn't the way you want it to be. So be it. Let us all give our testimonies and serve our chosen masters well. God will separate us as He sees fit and proper when He returns to set all records straight. I call upon you to submit to God's law and keep His commandments by faith in His word regarding them. Also to join me in combatting those who would force their day of worship upon me and all others through civil legislation as they have already, and continue to do. Let all observe their faith by faith, and not by the force of human legislation regarding the tradition of those simply most numerous. Such has nothing to do at all with the gospel of Jesus Christ.




 

Title: Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
Post by: winsome on Sat Jan 04, 2020 - 13:44:35
Many of us do not worship or believe according to The Council of Trent. The commandments including the fourth did not come to us through Moses but rather through the voice and hand of God Himself. God never did away with any of His commandments according to scripture. If He had, who are you or anyone else to say which ones He did and which ones He did not without a scripture to support such?Not only have Sunday keepers done this in taking it upon themselves to tell others what God has changed and what He has not according to their own understanding, but they have presumed to force such upon all through civil legislation. Insisting that God not only changed the day of observance, but apparently appointed them to force compliance to their self proclaimed change upon all. Go figure.
The Ten Commandments were Covenant Law for the Old (Siniai) Covenant. They were given to the Jews at Siniai and were not given to them before or to Gentiles ever.

The old Siniai Covenant  ended, along with the Law that was a part of it.

Scripture says they were given to the Jews through Moses. It was Moses that went up the mountain to receive them. It was Moses that relayed them to the rest of the Jews. It was only  the Jews that accepted them and promised to obey them.
Title: Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
Post by: winsome on Sat Jan 04, 2020 - 13:55:18
BALONEY! The Sabbath was established at creation 2000 years before there ever was a Jew. You simply choose to believe Christ spoke this sabbath into existence, or established it for no apparent reason at all. That is your choice, not scriptural testimony. Christ reminded the Jews of this day He established at creation when He formed them as a nation and lead them as His people. During the old covenant He had His prophets pronounce a blessing upon all including non Jews who would keep His sabbath. The same prophet even connected this blessing to his prophecies concerning the gentiles who would be brought into the fold during the new covenant within whom God the Father through His Son Jesus Christ, would write His law upon their hearts and in their minds. That law of course included the fourth commandment. This same prophet also observed that Jesus' sabbath would be kept in the new heaven and new earth. When Jesus came to earth He kept His sabbath, as Lord of it, and taught others its true meaning and proper observance. He also informed all that He did not come to change or destroy His law but fulfill it.  Saying also that it would not change until heaven and earth passed. You simply deny this because you don't like where it leads.

Cathlodox has not amply demonstrated anything but to those of his own extra biblical persuasion. The simple mention of the first day of the week in connection with certain activities does not support the abolishment of one of the commandments of God and or the institution of another worship day among early "Christians". If such is suggestive of establishing a particular day of worship, then the seventh day sabbath is without question the new covenant day of worship being mentioned in new testament scripture in connection to worship many multiple times more than the first day of the week.

Mat 12:1  At that time Jesus went on the sabbath day through the corn; and his disciples were an hungred, and began to pluck the ears of corn, and to eat.

Mat 12:2  But when the Pharisees saw it, they said unto him, Behold, thy disciples do that which is not lawful to do upon the sabbath day.

Mat 12:5  Or have ye not read in the law, how that on the sabbath days the priests in the temple profane the sabbath, and are blameless?

Mat 12:8  For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day.

Mat 12:10  And, behold, there was a man which had his hand withered. And they asked him, saying, Is it lawful to heal on the sabbath days? that they might accuse him.

Mat 12:11  And he said unto them, What man shall there be among you, that shall have one sheep, and if it fall into a pit on the sabbath day, will he not lay hold on it, and lift it out?

Mat 12:12  How much then is a man better than a sheep? Wherefore it is lawful to do well on the sabbath days.

Mat 24:20  But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

Mat 28:1  In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre.

Mar 1:21  And they went into Capernaum; and straightway on the sabbath day he entered into the synagogue, and taught.

Mar 2:23  And it came to pass, that he went through the corn fields on the sabbath day; and his disciples began, as they went, to pluck the ears of corn.

Mar 2:24  And the Pharisees said unto him, Behold, why do they on the sabbath day that which is not lawful?

Mar 2:27  And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath:

Mar 2:28  Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath.

Mar 3:2  And they watched him, whether he would heal him on the sabbath day; that they might accuse him.

Mar 3:4  And he saith unto them, Is it lawful to do good on the sabbath days, or to do evil? to save life, or to kill? But they held their peace.

Mar 6:2  And when the sabbath day was come, he began to teach in the synagogue: and many hearing him were astonished, saying, From whence hath this man these things? and what wisdom is this which is given unto him, that even such mighty works are wrought by his hands?

Mar 15:42  And now when the even was come, because it was the preparation, that is, the day before the sabbath,

Mar 16:1  And when the sabbath was past, Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James, and Salome, had bought sweet spices, that they might come and anoint him.

Luk 4:16  And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read.

Luk 4:31  And came down to Capernaum, a city of Galilee, and taught them on the sabbath days.

Luk 6:1  And it came to pass on the second sabbath after the first, that he went through the corn fields; and his disciples plucked the ears of corn, and did eat, rubbing them in their hands.

Luk 6:2  And certain of the Pharisees said unto them, Why do ye that which is not lawful to do on the sabbath days?

Luk 6:5  And he said unto them, That the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath.

Luk 6:6  And it came to pass also on another sabbath, that he entered into the synagogue and taught: and there was a man whose right hand was withered.

Luk 6:7  And the scribes and Pharisees watched him, whether he would heal on the sabbath day; that they might find an accusation against him.

Luk 6:9  Then said Jesus unto them, I will ask you one thing; Is it lawful on the sabbath days to do good, or to do evil? to save life, or to destroy it?

Luk 13:10  And he was teaching in one of the synagogues on the sabbath.

Luk 13:14  And the ruler of the synagogue answered with indignation, because that Jesus had healed on the sabbath day, and said unto the people, There are six days in which men ought to work: in them therefore come and be healed, and not on the sabbath day.

Luk 13:15  The Lord then answered him, and said, Thou hypocrite, doth not each one of you on the sabbath loose his ox or his ass from the stall, and lead him away to watering?

Luk 13:16  And ought not this woman, being a daughter of Abraham, whom Satan hath bound, lo, these eighteen years, be loosed from this bond on the sabbath day?

Luk 14:1  And it came to pass, as he went into the house of one of the chief Pharisees to eat bread on the sabbath day, that they watched him.

Luk 14:3  And Jesus answering spake unto the lawyers and Pharisees, saying, Is it lawful to heal on the sabbath day?

Luk 14:5  And answered them, saying, Which of you shall have an ass or an ox fallen into a pit, and will not straightway pull him out on the sabbath day?

Luk 23:54  And that day was the preparation, and the sabbath drew on.

Luk 23:56  And they returned, and prepared spices and ointments; and rested the sabbath day according to the commandment.

Joh 5:9  And immediately the man was made whole, and took up his bed, and walked: and on the same day was the sabbath.

Joh 5:10  The Jews therefore said unto him that was cured, It is the sabbath day: it is not lawful for thee to carry thy bed.

Joh 5:16  And therefore did the Jews persecute Jesus, and sought to slay him, because he had done these things on the sabbath day.

Joh 5:18  Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.

Joh 7:23  If a man on the sabbath day receive circumcision, that the law of Moses should not be broken; are ye angry at me, because I have made a man every whit whole on the sabbath day?

Joh 9:14  And it was the sabbath day when Jesus made the clay, and opened his eyes.

Joh 9:16  Therefore said some of the Pharisees, This man is not of God, because he keepeth not the sabbath day. Others said, How can a man that is a sinner do such miracles? And there was a division among them.

Joh 19:31  The Jews therefore, because it was the preparation, that the bodies should not remain upon the cross on the sabbath day, (for that sabbath day was an high day,) besought Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away.

Act 1:12  Then returned they unto Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet, which is from Jerusalem a sabbath day's journey.

Act 13:14  But when they departed from Perga, they came to Antioch in Pisidia, and went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and sat down.

Act 13:27  For they that dwell at Jerusalem, and their rulers, because they knew him not, nor yet the voices of the prophets which are read every sabbath day, they have fulfilled them in condemning him.

Act 13:42  And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath.

Act 13:44  And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God.

Act 15:21  For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.

Act 16:13  And on the sabbath we went out of the city by a river side, where prayer was wont to be made; and we sat down, and spake unto the women which resorted thither.

Act 17:2  And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures,

Act 18:4  And he reasoned in the synagogue every sabbath, and persuaded the Jews and the Greeks.

The sabbath and sabbath worship is addressed many more times in the new testament than Sunday or the first day of the week. Many of the verse are in direct relation to proper sabbath observance, and none of the are ever about changing the sabbath day or getting rid of it altogether. The breaking of bread you refer to as a sign that Sunday was a new day of worship is irrelevant since the scriptures clearly state that they broke bread daily from house to house.

Act 2:42 And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers. 43 And fear came upon every soul: and many wonders and signs were done by the apostles. 44 And all that believed were together, and had all things common; 45 And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need. 46 And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart,

You know this, you just choose to ignore it because you want things to be different than they were to support your argument. Some one has already pointed out the fault of your conclusions based upon individuals setting aside money themselves on the first day of the week. They did not gather to take up collection as you suggest. Nevertheless you ignore this because it isn't the way you want it to be. So be it. Let us all give our testimonies and serve our chosen masters well. God will separate us as He sees fit and proper when He returns to set all records straight. I call upon you to submit to God's law and keep His commandments by faith in His word regarding them. Also to join me in combatting those who would force their day of worship upon me and all others through civil legislation as they have already, and continue to do. Let all observe their faith by faith, and not by the force of human legislation regarding the tradition of those simply most numerous. Such has nothing to do at all with the gospel of Jesus Christ.
BALONEY!"
The sabbath was never mentioned in the Bible until Exodus  16:23

If you read Ex 16:22-30 you will see that the Jews weren't keeping a sabbath. They didn't understand it.

Also in Dt 5:3 when reminding them of the giving of the Ten Commandments, Moses said "Not with our ancestors did the LORD make this covenant"
Title: Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
Post by: beam on Sat Jan 04, 2020 - 14:05:28
The Catholic Church isn't actually the beast. It is Babylon the Great, the woman who rides beasts. In believing this SDA's have simply continued Protestant thought as expressed by them in word and writing many many times over.

Yes, SDAs take the word of the apostate Protestant church.  Remarkable, out of one side SDAs say how terrible protestants are and out of the other they use what they believe who is what.   

Quote
You have not left these truths through careful study, you have simply abandon the testimony of Christians from the past
Are you now claiming to be some sort of mind reader or pseudo prophet.  What I did was to leave all the untruths and am walking in the light of Jesus not in the "lesser" light of E. G. White.  Why is it, Amo,3-123 that you never step up to the plate and answer any of the questions we ask?  Why do you ignore most of our posts.  I have a good thought, you can't come up with anything from scripture to counter what we write.

Quote
So be it. Serve your masters well.

Thank you and thank you Jesus for being my Master and only Master.
Quote
apostasy among professed Protestants had to come of course,
You mean like Ellen White and her flock?
Quote
before Babylon could rise to power again, with their aid and approval. You are simply part of said apostasy.
The only apostasy I am proudly guilty of is leaving the false SDA church.
Title: Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
Post by: winsome on Sat Jan 04, 2020 - 14:13:43

Humanity cannot sanctify anything in and of themselves.

God alone can sanctify anything.
 
the Lord added, “Go to the people and have them sanctify themselves today and tomorrow (Ex 19;10)

Then Moses came down from the mountain to the people and had them sanctify themselves (Ex 19:14)

The priests, too, who approach the Lord must sanctify themselves (Ex19:22)

Sanctify yourselves, then, and be holy (Lev 20:7)

To the people, however, you shall say: Sanctify yourselves for tomorrow, when you shall have meat to eat (Num 11:18)

Joshua also said to the people, “Sanctify yourselves, for tomorrow the Lord will perform wonders among you." (Jos 3:5)
See also Jos 7:13, 1Chron 15:12, 2Chron 29:5, 29:34, 31:18, 31:18, 36:6, Job 1:5, Is 66:17
Title: Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
Post by: Amo on Sat Jan 04, 2020 - 14:55:15
Quote
Hi Jamie, Jesus didn't live under the new covenant of Grace, He lived under the laws of the Sinai covenant as did all the Jews He came to teach and save.  His words to them had to be in sink with the laws they lived under.  When we understand that we then can understand what happened after Calvary.  Jesus, at His death, fulfilled the new covenant prophecy of Jeremiah 31.  He ratified the new covenant with His own blood.  He appointed Paul to be His ambassador to explain the new way of life and and eternal life.  Paul preached that the works of the Law could not save one soul and that Christians are not under the laws of the Sinai covenant.  Gal 3 is one of the best chapters to learn this fact.

Perfect example of the gospel according to those who twist the words of Paul and follow those twisted words over and above the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Luk 2:39 And when they had performed all things according to the law of the Lord, they returned into Galilee, to their own city Nazareth. 40 And the child grew, and waxed strong in spirit, filled with wisdom: and the grace of God was upon him.

So the grace of God was upon Him, yet our Lord and Savior was didn't live under grace but under the law according to the false gospel of these followers of Paul. That is just what Luke said, you know, who is luke compared to Paul, right.

Joh 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. 15 John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me. 16 And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace. 17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ. 18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

Listen to how silly John is being now, saying Jesus Christ was full of grace and truth, that grace and truth came by Him and even that we received grace for grace from Him. John had apparently not read Paul's writings yet when he said such silly things, or else he would not have said them of course. According to the fake gospel of Paul promoted by some on these boards in any case.

Jesus Christ always has been, is, and always will be the grace of God. He was born under the law to deliver those who were under the law by the grace which He offers and personified while here on earth as one of us. To say that He was not under grace is only correct in that grace cannot be under grace, which very thing Jesus Christ was, is, and will ever be. He is not under grace He is over grace and grace proceeds forth from Him. Just as it proceeded forth from Him when here as one of us.

Mar 1:14 Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God, 15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

Jesus did not come to live under the law, and pass the giving of the gospel onto others called apostles. He came to bring the kingdom of grace and God to earth and establish the same through Himself. He always has been, is, and always will be the gospel of the grace of God. It is a lie from hell to suggest otherwise. He who is grace and truth brought both into this world and commissioned His own to preach these truths unto the world. He did not leave this work to Paul or any other single person, but rather to His body, whom all believers are. Who are themselves empowered with grace and truth from Him who is, always has been, and always will be grace and truth. Mercy be to any who preach a false gospel declaring otherwise. They will need it when they stand before God and answer for declaring such.

Mat 11:2  Now when John had heard in the prison the works of Christ, he sent two of his disciples, 3 And said unto him, Art thou he that should come, or do we look for another? 4 Jesus answered and said unto them, Go and shew John again those things which ye do hear and see: 5 The blind receive their sight, and the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, and the deaf hear, the dead are raised up, and the poor have the gospel preached to them. 6 And blessed is he, whosoever shall not be offended in me.

Do you not understand the grace of God shed abroad by our Lord and savior Jesus Christ, who came to establish the grace of God here Himself? From whom do you think the apostles and your savior Paul received their gospel and grace? When do you suppose this was established and by whom? Them? No, but Jesus Christ established the same and commissioned them to it even while here among us. Which they continued after He ascended back to the Father that He might impart the spirit of God unto the same among His followers forever.

Mat 10:5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not: 6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. 7 And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand. 8 Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give. 9 Provide neither gold, nor silver, nor brass in your purses, 10 Nor scrip for your journey, neither two coats, neither shoes, nor yet staves: for the workman is worthy of his meat. 11 And into whatsoever city or town ye shall enter, enquire who in it is worthy; and there abide till ye go thence. 12 And when ye come into an house, salute it. 13 And if the house be worthy, let your peace come upon it: but if it be not worthy, let your peace return to you. 14 And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet. 15 Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city.

This grace of God Christ brought to the lost of Israel first, but not exclusively, who were themselves to bring it the Gentiles later according to his plan. Of whom Paul, your chosen savior who you claim brought grace to the world, a Hebrew was one specifically chosen to bring the grace of Christ to the Gentiles. Not his own according to his own gospel as you may suggest.

Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: 13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come. 15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many. 16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification. 17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.) 18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. 19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous. 20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound: 21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

Make no mistake about it. Grace and truth came to us through Jesus Christ our Lord. He did not come here to live under the law as a a false gospel suggests. He was born under the law, to bring the grace of God upon those under the condemnation of the law through Himself as He is the source of all grace. He lived and conquered by grace, not as one under the law, for the law had no power over Him, because He never sinned. By this grace are we saved. Any other gospel is a false gospel.




Title: Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
Post by: Michael2012 on Sat Jan 04, 2020 - 15:25:37
Would the directive be from God to a people incapable of compliance? Apparently so. Odd wouldn’t you say! I say God would know their hearts as he does today. Wouldn’t have to be absolute perfect obedience. Why would he require perfect obedience from beings incapable of perfect obedience? God’s graciousness was present in the OT as well. God is unchanging.

Are you arguing with the scriptures on this Jaime? I hope not. I have shown you what scriptures says in Deut. 11:8 which explicitly and unequivocally tells us that God required for them to keep all the commandments, not one missed out. If you can't believe said scriptures, you are free to do so. But it is another to say that you don't believe it because you think it is not the truth, and instead believing that what you think is what is the truth about God.

You asked "Why would he require perfect obedience from beings incapable of perfect obedience?" In my reading of scriptures, it is because God is perfectly holy. I see God as one whose displeasure and hate of sin is as great as His love for righteousness. And there is nothing odd about Him wanting for man to keep all of His commandments to them, even while He knows that man is incapable of perfect obedience. What would be odd is wanting anything less than perfect obedience, for that goes against His perfect holy divine nature. Even so, while man is not capable of perfect obedience, if this incapable man would just have full faith in God and surrender His will to God, would there be a commandment he can't obey? And should he finds it too difficult to obeying it, will not God give him the strength to carry it out? I see this as the very reason why the Father, even the Son, sent the Holy Spirit and dwell in the Christians ~ to be their helper.
Title: Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
Post by: Amo on Sat Jan 04, 2020 - 15:28:26
Why is google allowed to put adds right in the middle of our posts? This started for me when I posted while staying at a hotel using their service. I see it happening to others as well. Is there any way to stop this annoyance?
Title: Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
Post by: Jaime on Sat Jan 04, 2020 - 15:38:21
Michael, I am not arguing with scripture, just employing other scripture in seeing God did not ask them to do something they couldn’t do. Are YOU arguing that they COULD obey perfectly?
Title: Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
Post by: Amo on Sat Jan 04, 2020 - 15:38:33
The Ten Commandments were Covenant Law for the Old (Siniai) Covenant. They were given to the Jews at Siniai and were not given to them before or to Gentiles ever.

The old Siniai Covenant  ended, along with the Law that was a part of it.

Scripture says they were given to the Jews through Moses. It was Moses that went up the mountain to receive them. It was Moses that relayed them to the rest of the Jews. It was only  the Jews that accepted them and promised to obey them.

Sorry dude. We all have the scriptures and can read them for ourselves. They say God spoke the ten commandments with His own mouth, and wrote them with His own finger twice. I understand you need to ignore or reject these scriptures, nevertheless they are still with us. Ignoring scripture is not very healthy, though the habit is presently very prevalent. Kind of silly simply referring to scriptures concerning Moses going up the mountain, which if quoted would conclusively point out that God Himself  wrote them for Moses twice. I would quote them for you and others proving the point, but I suppose you would just ignore them as well. So be it.
Title: Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
Post by: Amo on Sat Jan 04, 2020 - 15:50:06
BALONEY!"
The sabbath was never mentioned in the Bible until Exodus  16:23

If you read Ex 16:22-30 you will see that the Jews weren't keeping a sabbath. They didn't understand it.

Also in Dt 5:3 when reminding them of the giving of the Ten Commandments, Moses said "Not with our ancestors did the LORD make this covenant"

Why act like no one has a bible to refute your false claims? The sabbath commandment itself is a direct reference to the creation account and God blessing and sanctifying the seventh day at the end of the same. You now the six days of creation referred to in the sabbath commandment, and the fact that God blessed it at that time. There seems to be an epidemic of people just simply ignoring scripture that doesn't fit their teachings.

No, the Jews weren't keeping God's sabbath after becoming slaves to the Egyptians, thus the Lord said "remember" His sabbath. You can't remember something that has never been before. Yes, the covenant with Israel was different than the covenants previous to it. Much more detailed for one thing. Is there some kind of point to this fact? 
Title: Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
Post by: Michael2012 on Sat Jan 04, 2020 - 16:22:09
So, are you saying there was an angel and the Lord in the midst of the bush? The scripture does not say that either. Perhaps the purpose of the scripture was to point out that the angel of the Lord is the Lord, which seems to be suggested in other scriptures as well.

What I am saying is that the angel of the Lord is not the Lord per se. For if that were the case, then scriptures would had it simply stated "the Lord" and not "the angel of the Lord".

Quote from: Amo
Now concerning your comments regarding Colossians, are you suggesting that one of the ten commandments spoken by the mouth of God and written with His own finger are in the category of philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world?

The ten commandments are not addressed at all in Colossians 2. Colossians 2 is addressing philosophy, vain deceit, traditions, and the rudiments of this world. God's sabbath is none of those things. Nor is it any of the things pointed out which I highlighted in the following verses of Colossians 2.

Col 2:16  Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: 17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ. 18 Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind, 19 And not holding the Head, from which all the body by joints and bands having nourishment ministered, and knit together, increaseth with the increase of God. 20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances, 21 (Touch not; taste not; handle not; 22 Which all are to perish with the using;) after the commandments and doctrines of men? 23 Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body; not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh.

God's sabbath has nothing to do with the commandments of men. It is no surprise that those who reject the authority of God's sabbath, twist a scripture definitely referring to ceremonial sabbaths into one referring to God's sabbath, while they twist other scriptures referring to God's sabbath into ones referring to ceremony alone.

This is what I said "Now concerning the Sabbath day worship issue, I'd like you to consider what the scriptures tells us in Colossians 2 about Christians:" So, in citing and quoting Colossians 2, I was making reference to point out what it says about Christians and not about something else.

Now with regards the sabbath, as mentioned in verse 16, you seem to teach that Paul there is referring to ceremony alone or ceremonial sabbaths. Please tell us what exactly are you meaning to say and refer to by that?

Also, can you tell us what verse 17 says to you?

Quote from: Amo
You should heed the words of the first angel given in Revelation 14 -

Rev 14:6  And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people, 7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.

God gave us His Sabbath to do this very thing.

Exo 20:8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: 10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: 11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

May I ask, are you a descendant of Jacob, an Israelite? Are you saying that God had made a covenant whose mediator was Moses, with all men, and not with Israel in particular? If you do, then that would mean that you don't believe what scriptures is saying regarding this covenant.
Title: Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
Post by: Amo on Sat Jan 04, 2020 - 16:39:31
the Lord added, “Go to the people and have them sanctify themselves today and tomorrow (Ex 19;10)

Then Moses came down from the mountain to the people and had them sanctify themselves (Ex 19:14)

The priests, too, who approach the Lord must sanctify themselves (Ex19:22)

Sanctify yourselves, then, and be holy (Lev 20:7)

To the people, however, you shall say: Sanctify yourselves for tomorrow, when you shall have meat to eat (Num 11:18)

Joshua also said to the people, “Sanctify yourselves, for tomorrow the Lord will perform wonders among you." (Jos 3:5)
See also Jos 7:13, 1Chron 15:12, 2Chron 29:5, 29:34, 31:18, 31:18, 36:6, Job 1:5, Is 66:17

So, can I take it form the above, that you believe humanity can sanctify themselves as in make themselves holy, or something else holy by proclamation or observance? Is this truth according to your gospel?

Joh 17:17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth. 18 As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world. 19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.

We are sanctified through the truth. God's word is truth. If God says to sanctify ourselves, and we obey according to His word, then we will be sanctified. Not because we are able to do so of ourselves, but because we have obeyed His word and command, which is truth. All who obey the truth by faith in God's word which is truth, are sanctified in and by that truth. This is God's doing, not ours. This is of course when the word is used to mean make yourself holy, which we are not capable of. If we were, we would not need salvation.

Rom 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin. 15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I. 16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good. 17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. 18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

This is our description. There is no good or holy thing in or about us apart from God. God alone can sanctify us. None are or can be sanctified in sin, but all are only sanctified in Christ by the obedience of faith. Faith in God's word. Please do show us where God's word has declared that Christians should sanctify themselves and the Sunday by keeping it holy. If you can do this, then sanctification concerning the same is possible. If not, you cannot sanctify the day or yourself by observing ti or anything else the Lord has not commanded. This is according to scripture of course, not your gospel if indeed, you believe humanity can sanctify itself in any other manner than through obedience to God's word by faith in the same.
Title: Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
Post by: Amo on Sat Jan 04, 2020 - 16:55:34
Quote
Yes, SDAs take the word of the apostate Protestant church.  Remarkable, out of one side SDAs say how terrible protestants are and out of the other they use what they believe who is what.

Non stop twisted drivel by one who claims to have once been an SDA, but reveals such abject ignorance concerning them. SDA's have historically held up the Reformers as those who began the exit from Babylon to embrace biblical truth. They have accepted many correct biblical doctrines from the Reformers and many still maintain them to this day. They most certainly do accept the testimony of those who were literally cut off from society, imprisoned, tortured, burned at the stake, and murdered enmass by Roman Catholic church members who identified her as Babylon the Great for doing so. They were and are correct. They have historically though, rejected later Protestant tendencies to reject further biblical light, abandon correct doctrines and prophetic interpretations, and increasingly grow friendly with Babylon the Great. I say historically because SDA's themselves are now also doing all of the above. So be it. 
Title: Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
Post by: Michael2012 on Sat Jan 04, 2020 - 17:13:21
You do not properly divide the word of God. So are all who lived under the instructions of God mind you, during the old covenant lost unto eternal death according to that covenant? If it was purely a covenant of death appointed by God, then that should be the case, should it not. No, but those of the false gospel according to the twisted words of the apostle Paul simply ignore his own words and others which contradict said false gospel.

You aren't my judge as to whether I properly divide the word of God or not, unless you claim to have authority and claim to have perfect knowledge of scriptures, as the chosen apostles have. So that comment of yours is nothing but what comes from your pride and not from God nor from scriptures.

You asked "So are all who lived under the instructions of God mind you, during the old covenant lost unto eternal death according to that covenant?" God made a covenant with Israel at the time of Moses in the day when God took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt.

Regarding your question, consider what scriptures says:

2 Cor.3 :6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:

8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?

9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.

10 For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth.


In the above quoted passage, one could see two ministration spoken of. In verse 6, we can identify them as one of the letter and the other of the spirit. If you'll accept, Paul takes reference to the ministry of the Law (Law of Moses, of the letter), and to the ministry of the Spirit (of the spirit).

Now, the ten commandments are included and embodied in the Law of Moses. As such they are of the ministry of the Law. Paul speaks of this ministry of the Law as being of the letter and that which killeth (v.6). So that in verse 7, Paul calls it the ministration of death. He also calls it the ministration of condemnation. Now, don't you see it and agree then that the Law given to Israel through Moses, which were written and engraven in stones, is AGAINST them (Israel), which brought them condemnation and death? As Paul explicitly declared concerning the ministry of the Law, that is, "the letter killeth".

What is the purpose of the Law (which includes the ten commandments)? Paul gives us the answer in Gal. 3:19, that it was added because of transgressions. The implication is that, if not of transgressions, the Law would not had been given. For Paul, in his first letter to Timothy, said this about the Law:

9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,

10 For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;


This tells us, as scriptures do testify, that the Israelites, as a whole, at the time of Moses when they were in the wilderness, became lawless and disobedient, ungodly, sinners, unholy, idolaters, etc. so that God gave them commandments, statutes, ordinances, regulations, judgements ~ the Law. 

Be that as it is, the law which brought them condemnation and death, serveth also to be their schoolmaster to bring them unto Christ, that they might be justified by faith.

Quote from: Amo
Her 4:1 Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it. 2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it. 3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world. 4 For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works. 5 And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest. 6 Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief: 7 Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts. 8 For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day. 9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God. 10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his. 11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief. 12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. 13 Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do.

The first covenant included more than just laws. It included a sanctuary and sacrifices which all pointed to the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. By which only the children of Israel were saved from their sins as all are to this very day. They had to look forward to such by faith, we look back upon such by faith. They awaited the promise, we believe n the fulfillment of the promise. You do not properly understand the law or the gospel, that both are crucial too and point out the way of salvation. You think God Himself established a faulty covenant that needed to be changed rather than a covenant that was meant to be fulfilled unto change. You think the fault with that covenant was with God rather than with Israel. You are wrong on both accounts.

No Amo. I don't think that God established a faulty covenant that needed to be changed. And I don't think the fault with that covenant was with God. Those are false accusations, if not, a straw man you made up.

Quote from: Amo
Are you not like unto the Israel of old declaring that the ways of the Lord are not equal? That He made a covenant of death upon some, and then later of life upon others? There is and only ever has been one gospel of God. Forgiveness of sins and salvation in Christ Jesus alone. This unto repentance and obedience, not unto indifference and lawlessness, or legalism and enforced man made tradition. This is what it seems you preach, correct me if I am wrong please.

No I am not. And yes you are wrong.
Title: Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
Post by: Amo on Sat Jan 04, 2020 - 17:14:20
Quote
Are you now claiming to be some sort of mind reader or pseudo prophet.  What I did was to leave all the untruths and am walking in the light of Jesus not in the "lesser" light of E. G. White.  Why is it, Amo,3-123 that you never step up to the plate and answer any of the questions we ask?  Why do you ignore most of our posts.  I have a good thought, you can't come up with anything from scripture to counter what we write.

More abject ignorance. I have spent this entire day trying to address all the questions and lies written on these boards. I have spent countless hours in the past doing the same for many years and decades now on these boards and others. Should we actually go back and examine how many questions I have answered and addressed just on these boards alone over the years and compare them to your own, your own deficiencies concerning the same would no doubt become apparent. I am not in any kind of contest though concerning the same. I do however contest the ignorance of your statement claiming I do not take time to address questions. If you have not noticed I have many thousands of post more than you do, which count I believe was begun when I returned to these boards after being gone for some years after already posting here for years before that.

Nevertheless, please do provide a link to some of the questions you claim I have not answered and I will address them when time allows, if I find I have not already done so many times over.

You have not shown here any untruths which you have abandoned. You have expressed your opinions concerning that which you have decided to be untrue, I have found no truth in your claims however. Much of what you claim to be truth I find to be false altogether. So be it.
Title: Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
Post by: Michael2012 on Sat Jan 04, 2020 - 17:17:34
Michael, I am not arguing with scripture, just employing other scripture in seeing God did not ask them to do something they couldn’t do. Are YOU arguing that they COULD obey perfectly?

I am arguing, as I have in my last paragraph in Reply #123, that they could, though not on their own, but with the help of God.
Title: Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
Post by: Amo on Sat Jan 04, 2020 - 17:27:26
Quote
What I am saying is that the angel of the Lord is not the Lord per se. For if that were the case, then scriptures would had it simply stated "the Lord" and not "the angel of the Lord".

Unless of course the scriptures would have us understand, that a certain angel of the Lord as he appeared to those of the old covenant was actually God. Several other scriptures apart from that which we are presently referring to seem to suggest this very thing as well. Some of these angels committed blaspheme by their words or actions if they were not in fact God. So be it, according to your understanding.
Title: Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
Post by: Jaime on Sat Jan 04, 2020 - 17:34:12
Michael, I am saying they couldn’t obey perfectly but that God would show grace if their heart was right, much as he does today. Obedience with a bad beart is of no avail. Sometimes the Israelites had neither.

Michael, it doesn’t bother me that we can’t communicate, we never have to my knowledge.
Title: Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
Post by: Amo on Sat Jan 04, 2020 - 17:39:34
Quote
This is what I said "Now concerning the Sabbath day worship issue, I'd like you to consider what the scriptures tells us in Colossians 2 about Christians:" So, in citing and quoting Colossians 2, I was making reference to point out what it says about Christians and not about something else.

Now with regards the sabbath, as mentioned in verse 16, you seem to teach that Paul there is referring to ceremony alone or ceremonial sabbaths. Please tell us what exactly are you meaning to say and refer to by that?

Also, can you tell us what verse 17 says to you?

The commandments of God are not addressed or mentioned in Colossians 2 at all. The only commandments mentioned are the commandments of men. The ten commandments are the commandments of God as scripture calls them over and over again. The seventh day Sabbath is God's sabbath as scripture calls it over and over again. The sabbath Paul is referring to can not be the fourth commandment for both of these reasons. That which God allowed Moses, a man to write, may be referred to as the commandments of men. The sabbath being addressed therefore would have to be from among those writings and not the commandments of God spoken by His own mouth, written by His own hand twice, and called His many times over in scripture. They are sabbaths related to the ceremonial, civil, or agricultural laws of Israel. Not the sabbath established by our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ at creation which He commanded Israel to remember and keep with His own mouth, and wrote for them with His own finger. This same sabbath which he taught the proper observance of when here as one of us. This is my point. The context of Colossians 2 does not allow for it to be God's sabbath or command that is being addressed.
Title: Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
Post by: Amo on Sat Jan 04, 2020 - 17:48:51
Quote
May I ask, are you a descendant of Jacob, an Israelite? Are you saying that God had made a covenant whose mediator was Moses, with all men, and not with Israel in particular? If you do, then that would mean that you don't believe what scriptures is saying regarding this covenant.

No I was not saying that I am a descendant of Jacob, though I do have Jewish lineage in the family history, and do consider myself a spiritual descendant Jacob by faith. God's covenant with Israel, was His covenant with those who would be His people during that era before the coming of Jesus Christ. Those who would be of Christ during this new covenant age are graft into the vine, not saved separate from it.

Title: Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
Post by: Amo on Sat Jan 04, 2020 - 17:51:40
Quote
You aren't my judge as to whether I properly divide the word of God or not, unless you claim to have authority and claim to have perfect knowledge of scriptures, as the chosen apostles have. So that comment of yours is nothing but what comes from your pride and not from God nor from scriptures.

That is of course my take on your position, just as you no doubt think the same of mine. God will address and straighten this issue out when Jesus returns along with all others.
Title: Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
Post by: Amo on Sat Jan 04, 2020 - 18:23:03
Quote
You asked "So are all who lived under the instructions of God mind you, during the old covenant lost unto eternal death according to that covenant?" God made a covenant with Israel at the time of Moses in the day when God took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt.

Regarding your question, consider what scriptures says:

2 Cor.3 :6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:

8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?

9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.

10 For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth.

In the above quoted passage, one could see two ministration spoken of. In verse 6, we can identify them as one of the letter and the other of the spirit. If you'll accept, Paul takes reference to the ministry of the Law (Law of Moses, of the letter), and to the ministry of the Spirit (of the spirit).

Now, the ten commandments are included and embodied in the Law of Moses. As such they are of the ministry of the Law. Paul speaks of this ministry of the Law as being of the letter and that which killeth (v.6). So that in verse 7, Paul calls it the ministration of death. He also calls it the ministration of condemnation. Now, don't you see it and agree then that the Law given to Israel through Moses, which were written and engraven in stones, is AGAINST them (Israel), which brought them condemnation and death? As Paul explicitly declared concerning the ministry of the Law, that is, "the letter killeth".

I say you are wrongly dividing the word of God again. God who is spirit, spoke the ten commandments with His own mouth, and wrote them with His own hand twice. Are you suggesting that God's law is not of the spirit but only of the letter? I say this is because you wrongly divide the scriptures and the writings of Paul as well, and then apply a meaning to said scriptures that make the word of God and even Paul contradict itself. This is why I believe you wrongly divide the word of God. Your application causes to many contradictions in the word of God itself. God is spirit, nothing proceeding from Him or His mouth is simply by the letter or carnal in any way shape or form. His law does condemn to death as it is meant to do, to convict the heart and drive the sinner to the foot of the cross for forgiveness and salvation. It is also the standard of righteousness which our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ lived out in our flesh. Which He stated that He did not come to change but fulfill, that such might be fulfilled within our lives as well. All of this is scriptural and without contradiction.

Proclaiming that the law is abolished because it is not of the spirit or carnal, is not scriptural, but contradicts scripture. This is why I reject your gospel as false, and an example of wrongly dividing the word of God.

Psa 19:7 The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple. 8 The statutes of the LORD are right, rejoicing the heart: the commandment of the LORD is pure, enlightening the eyes.

Rom 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet. 8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead. 9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. 10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death. 11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me. 12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good. 13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful. 14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: 4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. 8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

The law is perfect, good, holy and spiritual. It helps convert the soul. This is the testimony of the scriptures and Paul. It is the carnal mind that is not subject to the law, not the spiritual mind. The law which proceeded out of the mouth of God who is spirit, has never needed to change and will not change. The sinner who is carnal has always needed to change and must change. This is the testimony of scripture. Gospels which contradict this testimony calling the law non spiritual or simply of the letter and needing to be changed, are false gospels which do not rightly divide the word of God but rather make it contradict itself. 
Title: Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
Post by: Amo on Sat Jan 04, 2020 - 18:52:33
Quote
What is the purpose of the Law (which includes the ten commandments)? Paul gives us the answer in Gal. 3:19, that it was added because of transgressions. The implication is that, if not of transgressions, the Law would not had been given. For Paul, in his first letter to Timothy, said this about the Law:

9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,

10 For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;

This tells us, as scriptures do testify, that the Israelites, as a whole, at the time of Moses when they were in the wilderness, became lawless and disobedient, ungodly, sinners, unholy, idolaters, etc. so that God gave them commandments, statutes, ordinances, regulations, judgements ~ the Law. 

Be that as it is, the law which brought them condemnation and death, serveth also to be their schoolmaster to bring them unto Christ, that they might be justified by faith.

Now above you see somewhat more clearly, but you do err concerning the law only condemning Israel because they broke it. The law is still binding and condemns everyone of us, and as a schoolmaster it still brings us sinners to Christ that we might be justified by faith in Him. Which justification includes being changed from law breakers to law keepers as the scriptures testify. Which those of the false gospel teach and preach but only and exclusively concerning the only commandment of God given to Israel which predates not only them but sin altogether. The sabbath was given to humanity before sin entered the world to a perfect people and creation of God. The one commandment which definitely was not given because of transgression, they now claim to be the very one abolished because the law was given because of transgression. You do err and wrongly divide the word of God. The sabbath was made for man before sin or transgression came into the world. It was not established because of transgression as may be said of the other commandments, and its observance most certainly has not been abolished as none of the other commandments have been either. Please look unto the words of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ to rightly divide the other words of the bible, and not the other way around.

Gen 2:1 Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them. 2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made. 3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

Mar 2:27 And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath: 28 Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath.

Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. 19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.


The following statement was made by our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ to His apostles in answer to a question they asked. It was part of Christ's prophecy concerning the future after Christ was no longer with us. Do you really think the Lord Jesus did not know that the sabbath would no longer be being observed at this time as you preach in your gospel, or are you of the belief that there are two separate gospels for Jews and Gentiles?

Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) 16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: 17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: 18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. 19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! 20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: 21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Please submit your gospel to the words and teachings of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, not the twisted testimonies of some of His apostles according to those described by Peter especially in reference to Paul unto their own destruction.
Title: Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
Post by: Amo on Sat Jan 04, 2020 - 18:57:59
Quote
No Amo. I don't think that God established a faulty covenant that needed to be changed. And I don't think the fault with that covenant was with God. Those are false accusations, if not, a straw man you made up.

No I am not. And yes you are wrong.

Good. It is good to be wrong about some things. So what do you claim was wrong with the old covenant, that causes the ten commandments to have to be done away with? The fourth in particular?

Title: Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
Post by: winsome on Sun Jan 05, 2020 - 05:43:25

Sorry dude. We all have the scriptures and can read them for ourselves. They say God spoke the ten commandments with His own mouth, and wrote them with His own finger twice.
And gave them to Moses to give to the people.

Ex 19 tells us that it was Moses that went up the mountain.

It was to Moses that God spoke
The people said to Moses:  “You speak to us, and we will hear; but let not God speak to us, lest we die.” (Ex 20:19) and it continues 
"And the Lord said to Moses..." (vs 22).

God spoke to Moses and gave him all the laws. The it says: Moses came and told the people all the words of the Lord and all the ordinances; and all the people answered with one voice, and said, “All the words which the Lord has spoken we will do.” (Ex 24:3).   
Concerning the tablets it says that God instructed Moses to come up the mounrtain to receive the tablets and Moses then took them down to the people.And the Lord said to Moses, “Write these words; in accordance with these words I have made a covenant with you and with Israel.”  And he was there with the Lord forty days and forty nights; he neither ate bread nor drank water. And he wrote upon the tables the words of the covenant, the ten commandments. (Ex 34:27-28). 
This clearly shows that the Ten Commandments were the Covenant Law given to Israel through Moses.  They were not given to anyone else.
Title: Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
Post by: winsome on Sun Jan 05, 2020 - 05:56:04
So, can I take it form the above, that you believe humanity can sanctify themselves
Just presenting you with scriptures. But you seem to want to ignore them.

As you yourself said:
 "Ignoring scripture is not very healthy, though the habit is presently very prevalent."
Title: Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
Post by: winsome on Sun Jan 05, 2020 - 06:21:26
Why act like no one has a bible to refute your false claims? The sabbath commandment itself is a direct reference to the creation account and God blessing and sanctifying the seventh day at the end of the same. You now the six days of creation referred to in the sabbath commandment, and the fact that God blessed it at that time. There seems to be an epidemic of people just simply ignoring scripture that doesn't fit their teachings.

God rested on the seventh day of creation after the work he had done. Yes he blessed it.
BUT:   
Scripture doesn't say God rested every seventh day and worked in between. 
Scripture doesn't say God blessed and made holy every seventh day. 

You are just inventing scripture to back up your false teachings.

No, the Jews weren't keeping God's sabbath after becoming slaves to the Egyptians, thus the Lord said "remember" His sabbath. You can't remember something that has never been before.
.
There is no evidence whatsoever that the Jews or anyone else kept the sabbath before God introduced it in Ex 16:23.
In Ex 16 God had to teach them about the sabbath (though Moses).
It was in Ex 20 when God gave the Ten commandment he told them to remember to keep the sabbath - the one he had taught them in Ex 16.

Yes, the covenant with Israel was different than the covenants previous to it. Much more detailed for one thing. Is there some kind of point to this fact?
You tell me what you think the point is.
Title: Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
Post by: winsome on Sun Jan 05, 2020 - 06:39:57
Are Christians obliged to keep any part of the Old Testament Law (The Law of Moses), including in particular the “Ten Commandments”?.
The simple answer is no.
The OT Laws were part of the Old (Sinai) Covenant and Christians are under the New Covenant.
Moreover the Sinai Covenant given only for the Jews. It was never given for Gentiles.

We can see this clearly in Dt. 5:1-9
1 And Moses summoned all Israel, and said to them, "Hear, O Israel, the statutes and the ordinances which I speak in your hearing this day, and you shall learn them and be careful to do them.
2 The Lord our God made a covenant with us in Horeb.
3 Not with our fathers did the Lord make this covenant, but with us, who are all of us here alive this day.
4 The Lord spoke with you face to face at the mountain, out of the midst of the fire,
5 while I stood between the Lord and you at that time, to declare to you the word of the LORD; for you were afraid because of the fire, and you did not go up into the mountain. He said:
6 "'I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
7 "'You shall have no other gods before me………

22 "These words the Lord spoke to all your assembly at the mountain out of the midst of the fire, the cloud, and the thick darkness, with a loud voice; and he added no more. And he wrote them upon two tables of stone, and gave them to me…….

27 Go near, and hear all that the Lord our God will say; and speak to us all that the Lord our God will speak to you; and we will hear and do it.'

This very clearly shows that the Ten Commandments were given the Israelites at Horeb (Sinai) as part of the Covenant Law.
The Covenant was made between God and the Israelites with Moses as Covenant Mediator.

Paul says:
Therefore remember that at one time you Gentiles in the flesh, called the uncircumcision by what is called the circumcision, which is made in the flesh by hands-- remember that you were at that time separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. (Eph 2:12)
Gentiles were strangers to the covenant.

Paul says to the Galatian Gentiles who were Judaising
Tell me, you who desire to be under law, do you not hear the law? For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by a slave and one by a free woman. But the son of the slave was born according to the flesh, the son of the free woman through promise. Now this is an allegory: these women are two covenants. One is from Mount Sinai, bearing children for slavery; she is Hagar. Now Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia; she corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her children. But the Jerusalem above is free, and she is our mother. For it is written, "Rejoice, O barren one who does not bear; break forth and shout, you who are not in travail; for the children of the desolate one are many more than the children of her that is married." Now we, brethren, like Isaac, are children of promise. But as at that time he who was born according to the flesh persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, so it is now. But what does the scripture say? "Cast out the slave and her son; for the son of the slave shall not inherit with the son of the free woman." So, brethren, we are not children of the slave but of the free woman.  (Gal 4:21-31)

He is clear. To go back to Judaism (accepting the Law) is to put yourself back into slavery.

He goes on to warn them:.
You are separated from Christ, you who are trying to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace. (Gal 5:4)

The Jews recognise 613 laws within the Law of Moses. For Jews the Law was indivisible.
whoever keeps the whole law, but falls short in one particular, has become guilty in respect to all of it. (Jas 2:10).
“Cursed be everyone who does not persevere in doing all the things written in the book of the law.” (Gal 3:10)

The Law was a mixture of moral, ceremonial and regulatory precepts. For example in Leviticus 19 we have the following (among others)
You shall not steal. You shall not lie or speak falsely to one another. You shall not swear falsely by my name, thus profaning the name of your God. I am the Lord (vs 11-12)
Keep my statutes: do not breed any of your domestic animals with others of a different species; do not sow a field of yours with two different kinds of seed; and do not put on a garment woven with two different kinds of thread (vs 19)
Do not eat meat with the blood still in it. Do not practice divination or soothsaying. Do not clip your hair at the temples, nor trim the edges of your beard (vs 26-27)

Do we observe them all today? The answer is clearly no. But equally we do regard some as binding on us.
These latter are what we consider as moral laws. They bare binding on us because they are binding on all people for all times not because they are in the Ten Commandments
But note that moral laws they are not confined to the Ten Commandments. For example fornication is not one of the Ten Commandments but is clearly condemned in the New Testament (1Cor 6:9)
The Old Testament written law has been replaced by the New Testament law written not in ink but by the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets that are hearts of flesh. (2 Cor 3:3).

Firstly let us look at the case for the abolition of the OT Law starting with St. Paul’s letter to the Romans.
Are you unaware, brothers (for I am speaking to people who know the law [i.e. Jews]), that the law has jurisdiction over one as long as one lives? Thus a married woman is bound by law to her living husband; but if her husband dies, she is released from the law in respect to her husband. Consequently, while her husband is alive she will be called an adulteress if she consorts with another man. But if her husband dies she is free from that law, and she is not an adulteress if she consorts with another man.
In the same way, my brothers, you also were put to death to the law through the body of Christ, so that you might belong to another, to the one who was raised from the dead in order that we might bear fruit for God. For when we were in the flesh, our sinful passions, awakened by the law, worked in our members to bear fruit for death. But now we are released from the law, dead to what held us captive, so that we may serve in the newness of the spirit and not under the obsolete letter. (Rom 7:1-6)
We [Jews] are put to death to the Law
We [Jews] are released from the Law


Note particularly that this is particularly relevant because God considered himself “married” to Israel. When Jesus died the Covenant ended and Jesus was free to take a new bride – the Church.

Paul himself declares he is no longer under the Law.
To the Jews I became as a Jew, in order to win Jews; to those under the law I became as one under the law--though not being myself under the law--that I might win those under the law. To those outside the law [Gentiles] I became as one outside the law--not being without law toward God but under the law of Christ--that I might win those outside the law. (1Cor 9:20-21)

He also makes here a clear distinction between those under the Law (the Jews) and those not under the Law (the Gentiles)

Galatians 3:
Before faith came, we [Jews] were held in custody under law, confined for the faith that was to be revealed. Consequently, the law was our disciplinarian for Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a disciplinarian. (Gal 3:23-25).
We (Jews) are not under the Law

Paul describes the Jews and Gentiles as separated but then he says:
But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near in the blood of Christ. For he is our peace, who has made us both one, and has broken down the dividing wall of hostility, by abolishing in his flesh the law of commandments and ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, (Eph 2:13-15)
The Law has been abolished.

Col 2 says much the same:
And you, who were dead in trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses, having cancelled the bond which stood against us with its legal demands; this he set aside, nailing it to the cross. (Col 2:14)

Does this include the Ten Commandments? Yes, because the Law in indivisible.
For whoever keeps the whole law, but falls short in one particular, has become guilty in respect to all of it.  For he who said, “You shall not commit adultery,” also said, “You shall not kill.” Even if you do not commit adultery but kill, you have become a transgressor of the law. (Jas 2:10-11)

Moreover there are specific texts that show this:
Now if the ministry of death, carved in letters on stone, was so glorious that the Israelites could not look intently at the face of Moses because of its glory that was going to fade, how much more will the ministry of the Spirit be glorious? (2 Cor 3:7-8)
What was carved in letters on stone and therefore described as “the ministry of death”. Answer – the Ten Commandments

The Book of Hebrews makes this replacement of the Old Covenant by the New very clear.
On the one hand, a former commandment is annulled because of its weakness and uselessness, for the law brought nothing to perfection; on the other hand, a better hope is introduced, through which we draw near to God. (Heb 7:18-19)

When there is a change of priesthood, there is necessarily a change of law as well. (Heb 7:12)

For if that first covenant had been faultless, no place would have been sought for a second one. But he finds fault with them and says: “Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will conclude a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah. (Heb 8:7-8)
 
When he speaks of a “new” covenant, he declares the first one obsolete. And what has become obsolete and has grown old is close to disappearing (Heb 8:13).

He takes away the first to establish the second (Heb 10:9)

We are now living under the New Law of the New Covenant. This New Law is written on our hearts. Hebrews 8:8-10 quotes Jeremiah 31:31-33:
Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will conclude a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah. It will not be like the covenant I made with their fathers the day I took them by the hand to lead them forth from the land of Egypt; for they did not stand by my covenant and I ignored them, says the Lord.

But this is the covenant I will establish with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put my laws in their minds and I will write them upon their hearts. I will be their God, and they shall be my people. (Taken from Heb)

So what is this New Law? It is the Commandments of Jesus:
If you love me, you will keep my commandments. (Jn 14:15)
If you keep my commandments, you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commandments and remain in his love. (Jn 15:10)
Title: Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
Post by: 4WD on Sun Jan 05, 2020 - 07:04:06
Winsome, I think you conflate the Law of Moses and the Old Covenant.  The Old Covenant was based upon the Law of Moses but the two are not the same.  An essential difference between the New Covenant and the Old Covenant is not the absence of law in the New Covenant but rather the means for obtaining forgiveness under the New Covenant for failure to keep God's law.  The law, i.e., God's law, was not destroyed or eliminated.  There are numerous passages in the NT showing that the law remains; that we are not under the law does not mean that we no longer need to obey the law.  It means that believers who have been saved are not responsible to submit to the penalty for breaking the law, since Christ has paid the penalty in full.  That is what is meant by Christ having fulfilled the law.
Title: Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
Post by: beam on Sun Jan 05, 2020 - 07:30:41
Again Beam, I wasn’t and haven’t been talking about salvation. I am talking about COULD the Jews have obeyed in order to be blessed by God and not cursed? I say YES or God was a liar in making the promise to them. Would it have to be perfect obedience? Obviously NOT if they are incapable of that.
Apparently God didn't believe they would be able to be obedient to all the laws.  There would not have been a plan made before the foundation of the Earth to redeem mankind.  Jesus was to be the scapegoat bearing all our sins.  All the events in the Bible are parts of the plan of salvation.   Man is playing out that plan.
Title: Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
Post by: Jaime on Sun Jan 05, 2020 - 07:34:19
Exactly, God didn’t expect perfect obedience in order to Bless Israel. If be did he lied in His promise. Jesus was needed to save man, not for God to bless OT Israel.
Title: Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
Post by: beam on Sun Jan 05, 2020 - 07:50:00
Exactly, God didn’t expect perfect obedience in order to Bless Israel. If be did he lied in His promise. Jesus was needed to save man, not for God to bless OT Israel.
Abraham certainly was not perfect.  Look what God has done for him and through him.
Title: Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
Post by: Jaime on Sun Jan 05, 2020 - 07:56:18
Absolutely.
Title: Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
Post by: winsome on Sun Jan 05, 2020 - 13:20:24
Winsome, I think you conflate the Law of Moses and the Old Covenant.  The Old Covenant was based upon the Law of Moses but the two are not the same. 

The Law of Moses was the Law that was given through Moses for the Old (Sinai/Mosaic) Covenant.
An essential difference between the New Covenant and the Old Covenant is not the absence of law in the New Covenant but rather the means for obtaining forgiveness under the New Covenant for failure to keep God's law. 
There are a lot of differences between the Old Covenant and the New Covenant but I agree that the means for obtaining forgiveness is one of them.

The law, i.e., God's law, was not destroyed or eliminated.  There are numerous passages in the NT showing that the law remains; that we are not under the law does not mean that we no longer need to obey the law. 

I think you are here confusing God eternal moral law with the Old Covenant Law.
God's moral law - valid for all people for all time, was codified in the Sinai Covenant. That codification ceased to be valid when the Covenant ceased. We are not under that Old Law. It does not have jurisdiction over us.

However God's eternal moral law continues and indeed can be found in the NT.
For example God forbids murder. It is part of his eternal moral law.
The first explicit statement on this is not the Ten Commandments but was addressed to Noah as part of the Noahide Covenant. Whoever sheds the blood of man, by man shall his blood be shed; for God made man in his own image.(Gen 9:6). 

However we know it was against God's law before that because when Cain slew Abel he knew he had done wrong (Gen 4:1-16) as did Lamech who slew a man (Gen 4:23-24). 

We find it in the New Covenant- Mt 5:21-22 & 1Jn 3:15..
It means that believers who have been saved are not responsible to submit to the penalty for breaking the law, since Christ has paid the penalty in full.  That is what is meant by Christ having fulfilled the law.
I disagree but that is a whole different issue.
Title: Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
Post by: Cathlodox on Sun Jan 05, 2020 - 17:03:00
Much of the SDA confusion about the Sabbath Command is due to their errant methods of interpreting Scripture...
...They believe that the Ten Commandments are a separate and different law than the law of Moses.
...This assertion made by the SDA's is easily debunked by Scripture.

Specifically Deuteronomy Chapter 5

God starts to SPEAK the Commandments & hearing the voice of God terrifies the Children of Israel...
...Who ask if its OK if Moses and just get the commandments from God and than give them to Israel.
....God says HE LIKED THIS IDEA!

Verse 29
Oh, that their hearts would be inclined to fear me and keep all my commands always, so that it might go well with them and their children forever! “Go, tell them to return to their tents. But you stay here with me so that I may give you all the commands, decrees and laws you are to teach them to follow in the land I am giving them to possess.”

The Ten Commandments were just the starting of the Commandments, God, out of care for the terrified Children of Israel STOPPED directly with the COI and instead gave them to Moses who transmitted the information to the COI.

So much for the "10 Commandment law"

Title: Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
Post by: Michael2012 on Mon Jan 06, 2020 - 02:39:55
The commandments of God are not addressed or mentioned in Colossians 2 at all. The only commandments mentioned are the commandments of men. The ten commandments are the commandments of God as scripture calls them over and over again. The seventh day Sabbath is God's sabbath as scripture calls it over and over again. The sabbath Paul is referring to can not be the fourth commandment for both of these reasons. That which God allowed Moses, a man to write, may be referred to as the commandments of men. The sabbath being addressed therefore would have to be from among those writings and not the commandments of God spoken by His own mouth, written by His own hand twice, and called His many times over in scripture. They are sabbaths related to the ceremonial, civil, or agricultural laws of Israel. Not the sabbath established by our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ at creation which He commanded Israel to remember and keep with His own mouth, and wrote for them with His own finger. This same sabbath which he taught the proper observance of when here as one of us. This is my point. The context of Colossians 2 does not allow for it to be God's sabbath or command that is being addressed.

If you don't see the law in Colossians 2, perhaps you need some help on that. Let me help you see it in the following passage in Colossians 2.

13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

Concerning the believers (the "you" in verse 13), that is the Christians, all their trespasses were forgiven, having all ordinances that was against them and contrary to them, blotted out and taken out of the way.

You seem to teach that these handwriting of ordinances which are said to be against them and contrary to them refers to commandments of men. Far from it sir. What does the blotting out or wiping out of the commandments of men that you make reference to have to do with what is said in verse 13? There is none. These handwriting of ordinances spoken of there are exactly that which condemned them to be guilty of sin which rendered them dead. These are which are said to have been blotted out and taken out of the way.

Regarding the following passage in Colossians 2.

16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:

17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

Clearly those mentioned in verse 16 which has to do with eating, drinking, of holy days, new moons and even sabbath days are said in verse 17 to be a shadow of things to come, the body of which is of Christ. If a shadow is of the body of Christ, I am sure there is no debate that it cannot be spoken of as something bad or evil.

You contend that they are sabbaths related to the ceremonial, civil, or agricultural laws of Israel.

What they are are the dietary (meat and drink) observances, festival (holyday and new moons) observances, and sabbath day observances. These observances were like "shadows" of Christ (v.17).

Having cleared that up, let me comment on what you speak about concerning the sabbath. You speak of God's Sabbath as though there is some other sabbath, perhaps man's sabbath? You speak of sabbaths related to the ceremonial, civil, or agricultural laws of Israel, or what you call ceremonial sabbaths, and speak of seventh day Sabbath. You seem to speak of sabbath in many different senses and meanings. Please tell us then what do you mean when you speak of Sabbath so we can understand what it is you are actually saying to us regarding the Sabbath.

Title: Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
Post by: Michael2012 on Mon Jan 06, 2020 - 03:35:43
No I was not saying that I am a descendant of Jacob, though I do have Jewish lineage in the family history, and do consider myself a spiritual descendant Jacob by faith. God's covenant with Israel, was His covenant with those who would be His people during that era before the coming of Jesus Christ. Those who would be of Christ during this new covenant age are graft into the vine, not saved separate from it.

To say that God's covenant with Israel, was His covenant with those who would be His people during that era before the coming of Jesus Christ isn't quite what scriptures says it is. God's covenant with Israel is with Israel. There can't be a mistake on that. For it is the covenant that God made with their fathers in the day when God took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt. While there were non Jews perhaps who may well have themselves be in that covenant with God, it does not take away the fact that it is with Israel in particular that God have this covenant and not with all men. So that, this covenant with the covenant laws therefore, is effective not with all men, but Israel in particular, and those who, by and according to the covenant law are brought into this covenant with God.
Title: Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
Post by: Michael2012 on Mon Jan 06, 2020 - 03:43:06
Quote from: Michael
You aren't my judge as to whether I properly divide the word of God or not, unless you claim to have authority and claim to have perfect knowledge of scriptures, as the chosen apostles have. So that comment of yours is nothing but what comes from your pride and not from God nor from scriptures.
That is of course my take on your position, just as you no doubt think the same of mine. God will address and straighten this issue out when Jesus returns along with all others.

Then there is really no need then to say such things.
Title: Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
Post by: beam on Mon Jan 06, 2020 - 08:30:53
If you don't see the law in Colossians 2, perhaps you need some help on that. Let me help you see it in the following passage in Colossians 2.

13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

Concerning the believers (the "you" in verse 13), that is the Christians, all their trespasses were forgiven, having all ordinances that was against them and contrary to them, blotted out and taken out of the way.

You seem to teach that these handwriting of ordinances which are said to be against them and contrary to them refers to commandments of men. Far from it sir. What does the blotting out or wiping out of the commandments of men that you make reference to have to do with what is said in verse 13? There is none. These handwriting of ordinances spoken of there are exactly that which condemned them to be guilty of sin which rendered them dead. These are which are said to have been blotted out and taken out of the way.
I like your response to Amo.  Paul reinforces Col2 when he wrote 2Cor3:6-11.  There he is telling us that the 10 commandments were the commandments that brought death.  Those commandments were hand written by God and became the death sentence to those they were given.  In those verses Paul wrote that they were done away, KJV.  Jews are no longer under the laws of the Covenant given to them at Sinai.  Gentiles never were and Christians along with all mankind are under the covenant given by Jesus at Calvary.  Our guide is not the ten commandments, our guide is the Holy Spirit given by Jesus at Pentecost.  Our commandments are to love God and our fellow man.  The new covenant is not about ritual laws of the old covenant.

I appreciate your comments.

Title: Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
Post by: Jaime on Mon Jan 06, 2020 - 08:33:46
Those two are the SUMMATION of the entire Law and the Prophets. The 10 commandments are nothing BUT how to love God and love our fellow man.

Would you agree that those that do not love God or their fellow man as per the two greatest commandments also have a death sentence?
Title: Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
Post by: beam on Mon Jan 06, 2020 - 09:19:57
Those two are the SUMMATION of the entire Law and the Prophets. (Strike through beam's addition) The 10 commandments are nothing BUT how to love God and love our fellow man.
There is nothing in the ten commandments that would indicate they were about love.  The way they are written indicates they were about the Israelites duty and/or fear to their fellow man and God.   The love commands are found in the books on Leviticus and Deuteronomy.   Israelites of faith would love to keep the commands of God.

Quote
Would you agree that those that do not love God or their fellow man as per the two greatest commandments also have a death sentence?
I know that everyone on Earth falls short of those commands.  But wait, what about the Blood of Jesus.  What about the sacrifice for all mankind.  I agree we all deserve death.  Jesus didn't believe that and came to become the bearer of all our iniquities.  Jn 5:24 ‘Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.  Jn3:16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
Title: Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
Post by: Jaime on Mon Jan 06, 2020 - 09:34:11
I would say every one of the 10 commandments are about two things, how to deal with (love) God or how to deal with (love) fellow man.

Jesus properly added the Spirit of the law to most of them. Don’t just not kill, do not harbor anger in your heart. Don’t just not commit adultry. Do not have lust in your heart.

How are people to love God? One thing have no other gods before him and make no idols or graven images. The whole thing is about dealing with or loving God and dealing with or loving our fellow man. That is why the two greatest commands are a SUMMATION of the Law and prophets. When Jesus raised the bar, it’s REALLY a broader death sentence. It’s easy to not kill or commit adultry, but not so easy to not have anger or lust in my heart.
Title: Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
Post by: Michael2012 on Mon Jan 06, 2020 - 11:28:20
Quote from: Michael
You asked "So are all who lived under the instructions of God mind you, during the old covenant lost unto eternal death according to that covenant?" God made a covenant with Israel at the time of Moses in the day when God took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt.

Regarding your question, consider what scriptures says:

2 Cor.3 :6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:

8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?

9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.

10 For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth.

In the above quoted passage, one could see two ministration spoken of. In verse 6, we can identify them as one of the letter and the other of the spirit. If you'll accept, Paul takes reference to the ministry of the Law (Law of Moses, of the letter), and to the ministry of the Spirit (of the spirit).

Now, the ten commandments are included and embodied in the Law of Moses. As such they are of the ministry of the Law. Paul speaks of this ministry of the Law as being of the letter and that which killeth (v.6). So that in verse 7, Paul calls it the ministration of death. He also calls it the ministration of condemnation. Now, don't you see it and agree then that the Law given to Israel through Moses, which were written and engraven in stones, is AGAINST them (Israel), which brought them condemnation and death? As Paul explicitly declared concerning the ministry of the Law, that is, "the letter killeth".
I say you are wrongly dividing the word of God again. God who is spirit, spoke the ten commandments with His own mouth, and wrote them with His own hand twice. Are you suggesting that God's law is not of the spirit but only of the letter? I say this is because you wrongly divide the scriptures and the writings of Paul as well, and then apply a meaning to said scriptures that make the word of God and even Paul contradict itself. This is why I believe you wrongly divide the word of God. Your application causes to many contradictions in the word of God itself. God is spirit, nothing proceeding from Him or His mouth is simply by the letter or carnal in any way shape or form. His law does condemn to death as it is meant to do, to convict the heart and drive the sinner to the foot of the cross for forgiveness and salvation. It is also the standard of righteousness which our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ lived out in our flesh. Which He stated that He did not come to change but fulfill, that such might be fulfilled within our lives as well. All of this is scriptural and without contradiction.

Proclaiming that the law is abolished because it is not of the spirit or carnal, is not scriptural, but contradicts scripture. This is why I reject your gospel as false, and an example of wrongly dividing the word of God.

Psa 19:7 The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple. 8 The statutes of the LORD are right, rejoicing the heart: the commandment of the LORD is pure, enlightening the eyes.

Rom 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet. 8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead. 9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. 10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death. 11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me. 12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good. 13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful. 14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: 4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. 8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

The law is perfect, good, holy and spiritual. It helps convert the soul. This is the testimony of the scriptures and Paul. It is the carnal mind that is not subject to the law, not the spiritual mind. The law which proceeded out of the mouth of God who is spirit, has never needed to change and will not change. The sinner who is carnal has always needed to change and must change. This is the testimony of scripture. Gospels which contradict this testimony calling the law non spiritual or simply of the letter and needing to be changed, are false gospels which do not rightly divide the word of God but rather make it contradict itself.

If you believe you are the one rightly dividing the word of God, you are mistaken and is deceived.

You see, what Paul says in 2 Cor. 3 concerning the two ministrations is very clear. He speaks in verse 7 of a ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, a ministration of the spirit in verse 8, a ministration of condemnation and a ministration of righteousness in verse 9. And I guess you don't want to tell us what Paul refers to by those.

You say "Proclaiming that the law is abolished because it is not of the spirit or carnal, is not scriptural, but contradicts scripture.". That's right. That is why I did not say such. So if you reject that, that's good. I too reject that. I wonder who said that to you.

There is no issue and debate on whether the laws of God, His statutes and commandments are holy, and just, and good, and that the law is spiritual. For indeed they are. And yes, the Law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul. There is no issue and debate on that.

But then, that does not take away nor change what scriptures had testified of as to the purpose of God in giving it to them. It does not change the truth that the law was made for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, for whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine. It does not change the truth that God made a covenant with Israel, whose mediator was Moses, and wherein the written Law was given to them, to being their obligation to keep and to live by them. Paul later told us why such a written Law, the law, was given in covenant to them. That is, it was given and added because of their transgressions (sin). And this is understood well in that, as Paul had said of the law, that by the law is the knowledge of sin. Paul expressed this more clearly when he said "I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, “You shall not covet.” Remember also, sin is not imputed when there is no law. With the giving of the written law then, there is then a written code which serves, among others, to be what may well be considered as a legal instrument whereby offense is defined, and judged, such as that it imputes sin or offense upon the guilty. So we can see by that, that the law brings about wrath, condemnation, and death. This is what can be understood in what Paul is telling us about the law, that he refers to it as "the letter", "written and engraven in stone", "the ministration of condemnation", "the ministration of death".   

But the good news is, there is now a better and more glorious covenant, the "new covenant", whose mediator is Jesus Christ. In contrast to the former covenant, the "old covenant", where what was given is the law, in this covenant, what is given is the Holy Spirit. In this new covenant, is the ministration of righteousness and the ministration of the spirit, and the ministration of life, as the Spirit gives life.
Title: Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
Post by: Michael2012 on Mon Jan 06, 2020 - 13:44:13
Now above you see somewhat more clearly, but you do err concerning the law only condemning Israel because they broke it. The law is still binding and condemns everyone of us, and as a schoolmaster it still brings us sinners to Christ that we might be justified by faith in Him. Which justification includes being changed from law breakers to law keepers as the scriptures testify. Which those of the false gospel teach and preach but only and exclusively concerning the only commandment of God given to Israel which predates not only them but sin altogether. The sabbath was given to humanity before sin entered the world to a perfect people and creation of God. The one commandment which definitely was not given because of transgression, they now claim to be the very one abolished because the law was given because of transgression. You do err and wrongly divide the word of God. The sabbath was made for man before sin or transgression came into the world. It was not established because of transgression as may be said of the other commandments, and its observance most certainly has not been abolished as none of the other commandments have been either. Please look unto the words of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ to rightly divide the other words of the bible, and not the other way around.

Gen 2:1 Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them. 2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made. 3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

Mar 2:27 And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath: 28 Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath.

Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. 19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.


The following statement was made by our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ to His apostles in answer to a question they asked. It was part of Christ's prophecy concerning the future after Christ was no longer with us. Do you really think the Lord Jesus did not know that the sabbath would no longer be being observed at this time as you preach in your gospel, or are you of the belief that there are two separate gospels for Jews and Gentiles?

Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) 16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: 17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: 18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. 19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! 20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: 21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Please submit your gospel to the words and teachings of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, not the twisted testimonies of some of His apostles according to those described by Peter especially in reference to Paul unto their own destruction.

You said "The law is still binding and condemns everyone of us". That's a sad thing for you if you say and believe that you are bound by the law. By that, you are under  the law and so condemns you. But this is what I believe, that there is now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus. I am under grace, not under the law.

You said "The sabbath was given to humanity before sin entered the world to a perfect people and creation of God." and "The sabbath was made for man before sin or transgression came into the world." . By saying "before sin entered the world", I am sure you are referring to the time before Eve and Adam sinned. There is no scriptures which support what you preach there about the sabbath. Please provide the scriptures which teach what you preach. If there is none that you can give, that would obviously mean that what you preach there is a false teaching. If you'll cite Genesis 2:1-3, you'd better read it again and repeatedly until you see that it does not teach what you preach. 

With regards Mark 2:27, it does say "The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath". I wonder what you understand it to be saying or if you understand what it says.

Regarding Mt. 5:17-18, may I ask you, would you say that Jesus had fulfilled the Law?

You asked "Do you really think the Lord Jesus did not know that the sabbath would no longer be being observed at this time as you preach in your gospel, or are you of the belief that there are two separate gospels for Jews and Gentiles?"

First, the passage does not at all speak about the sabbath observance. The mention of the sabbath together with winter in verse 20 is simply to bring out the severe difficulty of those days spoken of by Daniel the prophet. Besides, to whom do you think is Jesus talking to in Mt.24? Was it not to His disciples who are Jews? And we can expect, at least with the observant Jews, the observance of the sabbath.

Second, I am not preaching what you say I preach there nor am I preaching "my" gospel.  That's a lie coming from you, if not, a false accusation. Also, my belief is that there are not two separate gospels. There is only one gospel.
Title: Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
Post by: GB on Mon Jan 06, 2020 - 14:07:47
Those two are the SUMMATION of the entire Law and the Prophets. The 10 commandments are nothing BUT how to love God and love our fellow man.

Would you agree that those that do not love God or their fellow man as per the two greatest commandments also have a death sentence?

Agreed.

 It is written "The Law is for the sinner". If I am going into a store and there is a "Law" posted that reads; " No Shoplifting, shoplifters with be prosecuted".

Is that law for me?

That would depend on whether or not I am a shoplifter or whether or not I respect the creator of the "Law". If I'm not a shoplifter, or if I respect the creator of the "Law" enough to follow the sign, then the "LAW" isn't for me. The "law" will have absolutely zero consequence to me when I enter, or when I leave.

But if I was a shoplifter, or didn't respect the creator of the "Law" enough to abide by it, then this sign is definitely for me. It tells me not to shoplift, and it tells me what will happen if I do.

The Ten Commandments are the same. They are not for men who know Him and already respect the Christ, who created them, enough to abide by them, they are made for those folks who don't know Him or don't respect the Christ who created them enough to follow them.

"thou shall not commit adultery" Who is this "LAW" for? Faithful men, or unfaithful men?

"Remember the Sabbath to Keep it Holy" Who is this "LAW" for?  Men who respect the Christ's Sabbath? Or men who reject the Christ's Sabbath?

And how can I know how to Love God and my fellow man, if my creator doesn't tell me? And when he does, who am I to judge His Law one way or the other.

Great reply Jaime :)




 
Title: Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
Post by: Michael2012 on Mon Jan 06, 2020 - 14:08:52
So what do you claim was wrong with the old covenant, that causes the ten commandments to have to be done away with? The fourth in particular?

I don't claim anything implied in your question there. For what was done away with is the covenant that God made with Israel in the day when God took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt. Now, in this covenant, God gave them the Law which among many other commandments, statutes, ordinances, regulations, judgments, includes the ten commandments which God had by Himself written in stone. This covenant, and so together with all that makes it up, was replaced by a new covenant. As to why there is this new covenant, read Hebrews 8.
Title: Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
Post by: 4WD on Tue Jan 07, 2020 - 05:11:59
We are not under that Old Law. It does not have jurisdiction over us.
Those are two separate statements.  The believer is not under God's law.  However, God's law has jurisdiction over everyone.  It is just that for the believer, the penalty for breaking the law has been paid by Jesus' sacrifice on the cross.  That is what it means that Jesus fulfilled the law. The believer accepts His fulfillment of the law and therefore is not under [the penalty of] the law. But all who are not believers are definitely under the law.
Title: Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
Post by: Cathlodox on Tue Jan 07, 2020 - 10:31:33
4WD,

Are you saying that the law of Moses (1st five books of the Bible) is still in force? I'm not talking about the MORAL Commandments (which I agree would be perpetually in force)  I'm speaking of the Ceremonial or Ritualistic Commandments that required supernatural communication so that they would be known.
Title: Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
Post by: winsome on Tue Jan 07, 2020 - 10:33:12
Those are two separate statements.  The believer is not under God's law.  However, God's law has jurisdiction over everyone.  It is just that for the believer, the penalty for breaking the law has been paid by Jesus' sacrifice on the cross.  That is what it means that Jesus fulfilled the law. The believer accepts His fulfillment of the law and therefore is not under [the penalty of] the law. But all who are not believers are definitely under the law.
You are not distinguishing between God's laws.There are God's moral laws, applicable to all people in all times.And there are God's particular laws under particular covenants that are only applicable to those in that covenant.God does not punish us for breaking a law that he gave specifically to Israelites under the Mosaic Covenant.
Title: Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
Post by: winsome on Tue Jan 07, 2020 - 11:00:07
Hi @4WD and @Cathlodox

Let me explain how I see the issue of  God's laws and jurisdiction.

Firstly take a secular example.

I live in England and am under the jurisdiction of  English law. If I commit murder I am tried and convicted under English law.

If I go to the USA I am under the jurisdiction of American law. If I commit murder I am tried and convicted under American law.

They both have a law concerning murder (although some details may be different) but the jurisdictions are different. I am judged under the jurisdiction I am under.

God had moral laws which apply to all people at all times (eternal moral laws).

But under different covenants they are codified for that particular covenant.
If I am not in that covenant I am not judged under that covenant. It does not have jurisdiction over me either for moral or non moral laws.

Let's say:
Old (Mosaic) Covenant = England
New Covenant = USA

If I am in USA (New Covenant) none of the laws of England (Old Covenant) apply to me - murder, or just driving on the left side of the road.
The New Covenant Laws (USA) apply - murder and driving on the right had side of the road.
Title: Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
Post by: 4WD on Tue Jan 07, 2020 - 11:06:17
4WD,

Are you saying that the law of Moses (1st five books of the Bible) is still in force? I'm not talking about the MORAL Commandments (which I agree would be perpetually in force)  I'm speaking of the Ceremonial or Ritualistic Commandments that required supernatural communication so that they would be known.
The law establishes what is sin.  Sin is lawlessness.  When sin is committed, then punishment is required by God, Himself.  Under the Old Covenant, God provided the means for obtaining atonement for the sins.  However even then, the payment of the penalty for those sins, atoned for or not, had not been paid fully.  Under the new covenant atonement and payment of the penalty have been provided for the believer, and only for the believer.  What constitutes sin is still disobedience of the law.

Someone here, I have forgotten who, pointed out that the actions of the priests, the sacrifices, etc. are not really a part of the law; rather they were the means of obtaining forgiveness for committing the sins.  The law stands; the means for obtaining forgiveness and payment of the debt has been changed.  Some other things were changed as well.  Some of the dietary limitations were changed.  Some of the marriage [and divorce] limitations have been changed.  Some of the special observances, the special days, etc., have been changed.  In some cases they were made more stringent, in some cases, less so.  But the basic fundamentals of the law remain in force.

When Paul declared that the believer is no longer under the law, he did not mean that the believer no longer needed to obey the law.  He meant that the believer was no longer responsible for payment of the penalty for breaking the law; that has been taken care of by the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross.
Title: Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
Post by: Cathlodox on Tue Jan 07, 2020 - 11:21:23
Hi Winsome, I agree with some of what you said.

I'm coming from a position that says that within the law of Moses there was "Moral" or "Natural" essence that "carried over into the New Covenant.

God is absolutely Moral and Perfect thus the law He gave would have it's base in Moral perfection.

Now, to be sure ANYTHING that required specialized communication (such as a the Sabbath) had a ceremonial aspect to it (as in what specific day). So too all the other Feasts of the Lord and the food laws.

These things are all ceremonial and I believe they terminated with the death and Resurrection of Jesus.

Leviticus 23
Title: Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
Post by: Michael2012 on Tue Jan 07, 2020 - 11:29:45
I like your response to Amo.  Paul reinforces Col2 when he wrote 2Cor3:6-11.  There he is telling us that the 10 commandments were the commandments that brought death.  Those commandments were hand written by God and became the death sentence to those they were given.  In those verses Paul wrote that they were done away, KJV.  Jews are no longer under the laws of the Covenant given to them at Sinai.  Gentiles never were and Christians along with all mankind are under the covenant given by Jesus at Calvary.  Our guide is not the ten commandments, our guide is the Holy Spirit given by Jesus at Pentecost.  Our commandments are to love God and our fellow man.  The new covenant is not about ritual laws of the old covenant.

I appreciate your comments.

What Paul says in 2 Cor. 3 concerning the two ministrations is very clear ~ a ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, a ministration of condemnation; and a ministration of the spirit, a ministration of righteousness. This is referencing the two covenants ~ the old covenant and the new covenant.

Scriptures testifies of the truth that the law, the law given by God to Israel through Moses under the old covenant, was made for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, for whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine.

Scriptures testifies of the truth that God made a covenant with Israel, whose mediator was Moses, and wherein the written Law was given to them, to being their covenant obligation to keep and to live by. Paul later told us why such a written Law, the law, was given in covenant to them. That is, it was given and added because of their transgressions (sin). And this is understood well in that, as Paul had said of the law, that by the law is the knowledge of sin. Paul expressed this more clearly when he said "I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, “You shall not covet.” Remember also, sin is not imputed when there is no law. With the giving of the written law then under the old covenant between God and Israel, there is then a written code which serves, among others, to be what may well be considered as a legal instrument whereby offense is defined, and judged, such as that it imputes sin or offense upon the guilty, which in this case is with regards the covenant people. So we can see by that, that the law brings about wrath, condemnation, and death. This is what can be understood in what Paul is telling us about the law, that he refers to it as "the letter", "written and engraven in stone", "the ministration of condemnation", "the ministration of death".

But the good news is, there is now a better and more glorious covenant, the "new covenant", whose mediator is Jesus Christ. In contrast to the former covenant, the "old covenant", where what was given is the law, in this covenant, what is given is the Holy Spirit. In this new covenant, is the ministration of righteousness and the ministration of the spirit, and the ministration of life, as the Spirit gives life.

Scriptures testifies of the truth that the new covenant replaced the former covenant. So the former is no more and had been done away with. Now this new covenant is not between God and all mankind. For scriptures testifies in the book of Hebrews that it is a covenant God made with Israel. This is where some, I'd say get confused. I will not get into that now.

As my final comment, let me share this. In the old covenant, what was given was the Law, written in stones. Scripture said regarding the Law, that the man which doeth those things shall live by them. But concerning the old covenant, Scriptures tells us in Hebrews 8:7, "For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second." Now, there is nothing wrong with the law, for indeed the law is holy, and just, and good. Scriptures tells us further in Hebrews 8,  that it was with them that the fault lies ~ man being evidently weak in the flesh (sinful flesh) and is unable to continue in the covenant. So that God made a new covenant to replace it. In this new covenant, God puts His laws into the mind, and this time write His laws in the hearts, and not in stones as was in the old. By that, God says, as recorded in scriptures "they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest." In this new covenant, what is given is the Holy Spirit, even to dwell in them. Now the Lord is that Spirit. And so to whom the Holy Spirit is given, God dwells in him. And this is what Scriptures says concerning this, "But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you." These are just some of the better things of the new covenant, among others.     
Title: Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
Post by: winsome on Tue Jan 07, 2020 - 12:40:05
Hi Winsome, I agree with some of what you said.

I'm coming from a position that says that within the law of Moses there was "Moral" or "Natural" essence that "carried over into the New Covenant.

God is absolutely Moral and Perfect thus the law He gave would have it's base in Moral perfection.

Now, to be sure ANYTHING that required specialized communication (such as a the Sabbath) had a ceremonial aspect to it (as in what specific day). So too all the other Feasts of the Lord and the food laws.

These things are all ceremonial and I believe they terminated with the death and Resurrection of Jesus.

Leviticus 23
I understand.I've used the term carried over in the past but I think of it this way.
Think of a box labelled 'moral laws'. Then an arrow from the 'moral law' box to Mosaic Covenant Law showing that all moral laws are incorporated in the Mosaic Law.

Another arrow from the 'moral law' box to New Covenant showing that all moral laws are incorporated into New Covenant Law.

They are in both - it couldn't be otherwise - but not carried over from Mosaic Law to new Covenant law.

But either way non moral laws such as sabbath keeping  are not in the New Covenant Law.
Title: Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
Post by: Michael2012 on Tue Jan 07, 2020 - 13:24:42
Agreed.

 It is written "The Law is for the sinner". If I am going into a store and there is a "Law" posted that reads; " No Shoplifting, shoplifters with be prosecuted".

Is that law for me?

That would depend on whether or not I am a shoplifter or whether or not I respect the creator of the "Law". If I'm not a shoplifter, or if I respect the creator of the "Law" enough to follow the sign, then the "LAW" isn't for me. The "law" will have absolutely zero consequence to me when I enter, or when I leave.

But if I was a shoplifter, or didn't respect the creator of the "Law" enough to abide by it, then this sign is definitely for me. It tells me not to shoplift, and it tells me what will happen if I do.

The Ten Commandments are the same. They are not for men who know Him and already respect the Christ, who created them, enough to abide by them, they are made for those folks who don't know Him or don't respect the Christ who created them enough to follow them.

"thou shall not commit adultery" Who is this "LAW" for? Faithful men, or unfaithful men?

"Remember the Sabbath to Keep it Holy" Who is this "LAW" for?  Men who respect the Christ's Sabbath? Or men who reject the Christ's Sabbath?

And how can I know how to Love God and my fellow man, if my creator doesn't tell me? And when he does, who am I to judge His Law one way or the other.

Great reply Jaime :)

Just a comment. One must understand the following passage in the context of scriptures.

1 Tim. 1:9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,

10 For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;

Consider, God gave commandment (a law for that matter) to Adam who is not a sinner at the time.

By the way, you mentioned "Christ's Sabbath", where can we find that in scriptures?

What do you mean by "Christ's Sabbath"?
Title: Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
Post by: Michael2012 on Tue Jan 07, 2020 - 13:51:56
Hi @Cathlodox; @winsome

I just like to comment regarding what you call "Moral Laws" of God.

Consider the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. When Eve and Adam ate of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, they came to know good and evil. By that, mankind know what is good and what is evil, don't you agree?

Genesis 3:22 And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

Title: Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
Post by: 4WD on Wed Jan 08, 2020 - 05:01:20
Michael, are you suggesting that Adam and Eve really didn't know that it was wrong to disobey God when He told them to not eat of the fruit of the tree of good and evil?  I think the God's message to us in the narrative of eating the forbidden fruit carries a much deeper meaning that you are giving it.  But perhaps that is for another time.
Title: Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
Post by: GB on Wed Jan 08, 2020 - 06:30:45
Just a comment. One must understand the following passage in the context of scriptures.

1 Tim. 1:9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,

10 For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;

Consider, God gave commandment (a law for that matter) to Adam who is not a sinner at the time.

By the way, you mentioned "Christ's Sabbath", where can we find that in scriptures?

What do you mean by "Christ's Sabbath"?

 God also gave Jesus a "LAW" even though Jesus wasn't a sinner. The text says the Law is not "MADE" for the righteous, it doesn't say it was not given to the righteous. The "do not shoplift" law is there for all to see, it just wasn't made for folks who don't shoplift.

As for the Christ's Sabbath. I am going by the actually teaching of the holy Scriptures, not ancient religious tradition.

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God.

3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Col. 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

Gen. 2:1 Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.

2 And on the seventh day God (Christ) ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.

3 And God (Christ) blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

Lev. 23:1 And the LORD (Christ) spake unto Moses, saying,

2 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, Concerning the feasts of the LORD, which ye shall proclaim to be holy convocations, even these are my feasts.

3 Six days shall work be done: but the seventh day is the sabbath of rest, an holy convocation; ye shall do no work therein: it is the sabbath of the LORD in all your dwellings.

4 These are the feasts of the LORD,(Christ) even holy convocations, which ye shall proclaim in their seasons.

Mark 2:27 And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath:

28 Therefore the Son of man (Christ) is Lord also of the sabbath.

There can be no doubt that the Christ, before becoming a man, at least according to the Word's of the Holy Scriptures, created His Holy Sabbath. Therefore it is the Christ's Sabbath that HE gave to man, for man.






Title: Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
Post by: 4WD on Wed Jan 08, 2020 - 07:29:29
God also gave Jesus a "LAW"....
Where do you read that?
Title: Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
Post by: GB on Wed Jan 08, 2020 - 10:53:33
Where do you read that?

Gal. 4:4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,



Is. 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel. 15 Butter and honey shall he eat, that he may know to refuse the evil, and choose the good.

John 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

Phil. 2:8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

Heb. 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

Luke 2:21 And when eight days were accomplished for the circumcising of the child, his name was called JESUS, which was so named of the angel before he was conceived in the womb.

22 And when the days of her purification according to the law of Moses were accomplished, they brought him to Jerusalem, to present him to the Lord;

23 (As it is written in the law of the Lord, Every male that openeth the womb shall be called holy to the Lord;)







Title: Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
Post by: Michael2012 on Wed Jan 08, 2020 - 10:58:25
Quote from: Michael
Hi @Cathlodox; @winsome

I just like to comment regarding what you call "Moral Laws" of God.

Consider the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. When Eve and Adam ate of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, they came to know good and evil. By that, mankind know what is good and what is evil, don't you agree?

Genesis 3:22 And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

Michael, are you suggesting that Adam and Eve really didn't know that it was wrong to disobey God when He told them to not eat of the fruit of the tree of good and evil?  I think the God's message to us in the narrative of eating the forbidden fruit carries a much deeper meaning that you are giving it.  But perhaps that is for another time.

Adam and Eve have no knowledge of good and evil before their disobedience. For the  implication is clear concerning the following scriptures:

Gen.3:22 And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

The implication is that, before their disobedience, they know not good and evil. It seems that you don't agree with me on this. If not, then are you suggesting that they have knowledge of good and evil even before they have eaten of the forbidden fruit? To that I could not agree.

What they knew at the time is that God's will is for them to not eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. In my view, such knowledge isn't that of good and evil. In my view, obedience or disobedience isn't a matter of the knowledge of good and evil, or of right and wrong, but is a matter of faith in God.

Title: Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
Post by: winsome on Wed Jan 08, 2020 - 10:59:19
God also gave Jesus a "LAW" even though Jesus wasn't a sinner. The text says the Law is not "MADE" for the righteous, it doesn't say it was not given to the righteous. The "do not shoplift" law is there for all to see, it just wasn't made for folks who don't shoplift.

As for the Christ's Sabbath. I am going by the actually teaching of the holy Scriptures, not ancient religious tradition.

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God.

3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Col. 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

Gen. 2:1 Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.

2 And on the seventh day God (Christ) ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.

3 And God (Christ) blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

Lev. 23:1 And the LORD (Christ) spake unto Moses, saying,

2 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, Concerning the feasts of the LORD, which ye shall proclaim to be holy convocations, even these are my feasts.

3 Six days shall work be done: but the seventh day is the sabbath of rest, an holy convocation; ye shall do no work therein: it is the sabbath of the LORD in all your dwellings.

4 These are the feasts of the LORD,(Christ) even holy convocations, which ye shall proclaim in their seasons.

Mark 2:27 And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath:

28 Therefore the Son of man (Christ) is Lord also of the sabbath.

There can be no doubt that the Christ, before becoming a man, at least according to the Word's of the Holy Scriptures, created His Holy Sabbath. Therefore it is the Christ's Sabbath that HE gave to man, for man.
The word Sabbath is not found in Genesis.

God rested on the 7th day of creation but it does not say he rested every seventh day.

There is nothing in the Bible about any one keeping a seventh day sabbath until God gave it to the Israelites in the desert (Ex 20:23)Clearly they were not familiar with the idea of a seventh day sabbath.

Ezekial writes:
So I led them out of the land of Egypt and brought them into the wilderness. I gave them my statutes and showed them my ordinances, by whose observance man shall live. Moreover I gave them my sabbaths, as a sign between me and them, that they might know that I the Lord sanctify them.(Ez 20:10-12).

Sabbath observance was only ever commanded to the Jews and that was when God was forming them into a nation in the desert.
Title: Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
Post by: Michael2012 on Wed Jan 08, 2020 - 11:22:34
God also gave Jesus a "LAW" even though Jesus wasn't a sinner. The text says the Law is not "MADE" for the righteous, it doesn't say it was not given to the righteous. The "do not shoplift" law is there for all to see, it just wasn't made for folks who don't shoplift.

To whom was the commandment/law "Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die." made for? Was it not for sinless Adam? So, I would have to repeat, one must understand 1 Tim. 9-10 in the context of scriptures.

Quote from: GB
As for the Christ's Sabbath. I am going by the actually teaching of the holy Scriptures, not ancient religious tradition.

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God.

3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Col. 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

Gen. 2:1 Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.

2 And on the seventh day God (Christ) ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.

3 And God (Christ) blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

Lev. 23:1 And the LORD (Christ) spake unto Moses, saying,

2 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, Concerning the feasts of the LORD, which ye shall proclaim to be holy convocations, even these are my feasts.

3 Six days shall work be done: but the seventh day is the sabbath of rest, an holy convocation; ye shall do no work therein: it is the sabbath of the LORD in all your dwellings.

4 These are the feasts of the LORD,(Christ) even holy convocations, which ye shall proclaim in their seasons.

Mark 2:27 And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath:

28 Therefore the Son of man (Christ) is Lord also of the sabbath.

There can be no doubt that the Christ, before becoming a man, at least according to the Word's of the Holy Scriptures, created His Holy Sabbath. Therefore it is the Christ's Sabbath that HE gave to man, for man.

So, according to you, by saying Christ's Sabbath, you mean to refer to the seventh day spoken in Gen. 2:2-3 and in Lev. 23:3 and also that spoken in Mark 2:27-28. Thank you for the clarification.

My next clarificatory question to you is, what do you say is the definition of the Sabbath spoken in those passages?
Title: Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
Post by: winsome on Wed Jan 08, 2020 - 14:00:26
Hi @Cathlodox; @winsome

I just like to comment regarding what you call "Moral Laws" of God.

Consider the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. When Eve and Adam ate of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, they came to know good and evil. By that, mankind know what is good and what is evil, don't you agree?

Genesis 3:22 And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
Hi,
I've been thinking about this.

A few comments: 

1. The Catholic Church teaches that when Adam and Eve sinned they lost the original holiness which they had at the beginning. To me that implies that they would have no experience of evil. But when they lost that original holiness they did.

2. Note that the text says they would  know good and evil not that they would know right and wrong.

3. The word for 'know' is Strong H3045 which can mean knowing in as experiencing (rather than know about). It's the same word used in Gen 4:1 "Now Adam knew Eve his wife, and she conceived and bore Cain" and Gen 4:17 "Cain knew his wife, and she conceived and bore Enoch".

So perhaps it's more about them experiencing evil than just knowing about morality.
Title: Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
Post by: GB on Wed Jan 08, 2020 - 15:43:38
The word Sabbath is not found in Genesis.

God rested on the 7th day of creation but it does not say he rested every seventh day.

There is nothing in the Bible about any one keeping a seventh day sabbath until God gave it to the Israelites in the desert (Ex 20:23)Clearly they were not familiar with the idea of a seventh day sabbath.

I appreciate your zeal, but you are leaving out some very important Biblical Facts.

Gen. 2:2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.

3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

So the God of Abraham, the creator of "all things" set apart a certain day of the week, the 7th day, and "Sanctified it".

Hebrew for Sanctified = "to make, pronounce, or observe as clean (Ceremonially or morally) :- appoint, bid, consecrate, dedicate, defile, hallow, (be, keep,) Holy, keep, proclaim, purify, sanctify.

The God who made all things that are made, by Him and for Him, did this in the very beginning. You are free to assume that this same God withheld this sanctification from Adam or Noah, or Abraham if you like. But you have no evidence to support this assumption.

Gen. 26:5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

Again, we know Abraham kept God's Laws, statutes, Commandments, etc. Did God share with us what those Laws were? I say He did after the Children of Israel had forgotten them in Egypt.

You are free to believe this same God gave Abraham different Laws (except the Levitical Priesthood Abraham didn't have, as Levi wasn't born yet) than He gave Abraham's Children if you like, but you have no evidence to support this.

Ex. 20: 8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.

9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:

10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:

Again, the Lord Thy God set apart, blessed above all others, and Sanctified this day long before there were "Children of Israel". This Sanctified Day is the "Sabbath of the Lord thy God".

11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

You can make the argument that God "withheld" His Hallowed, Sanctified Sabbath from all men, even Noah and Abraham, if you like. But it is only an assumption. How did Noah know what animals were Clean, and what animals were unclean? Is there any written instruction from God showing Noah His Creation? No, there isn't. And yet Noah, who walked with God, knew what God had "sanctified as food". We find out later, after Abraham's Children had lost sight of God's Laws that Abraham obeyed, what He created for food. But the "creation" was always there.

Quote
Ezekial writes:
So I led them out of the land of Egypt and brought them into the wilderness. I gave them my statutes and showed them my ordinances, by whose observance man shall live. Moreover I gave them my sabbaths, as a sign between me and them[/b], that they might know that I the Lord sanctify them.(Ez 20:10-12).

Sabbath observance was only ever commanded to the Jews and that was when God was forming them into a nation in the desert.

It's important to remember what God Himself said about HIS OWN Laws, and who they were for.

Ex. 12:48 And when a stranger shall sojourn with thee, and will keep the passover to the LORD, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near and keep it; and he shall be as one that is born in the land: for no uncircumcised person shall eat thereof.

49 One law shall be to him that is homeborn, (Jew) and unto the stranger (Non-Jew) that sojourneth among you.

It is a popular doctrine of the religions of the land that God's Laws were only for the Jews. But as you can see, God's own Word exposes this doctrine as from man and not God.

Is. 56:1 Thus saith the LORD, Keep ye judgment, and do justice: for my salvation is near to come, and my righteousness to be revealed.

2 Blessed is the man that doeth this, and the son of man that layeth hold on it; that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and keepeth his hand from doing any evil.

3 Neither let the son of the stranger, (NON-Jew) that hath joined himself to the LORD, speak, saying, The LORD hath utterly separated me from his people: neither let the eunuch say, Behold, I am a dry tree.

4 For thus saith the LORD unto the eunuchs (non-Jew) that keep my sabbaths, and choose the things that please me, and take hold of my covenant;

5 Even unto them will I give in mine house and within my walls a place and a name better than of sons and of daughters: I will give them an everlasting name, that shall not be cut off.

6 Also the sons of the stranger, (Non-Jews) that join themselves to the LORD, to serve him, and to love the name of the LORD, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant;

7 Even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted upon mine altar; for mine house shall be called an house of prayer for all people.

The teaching that God's Holy, Sanctified Sabbath was not created for all men is a falsehood. As Jesus said "The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath". He could have said "made for the Jews", but He didn't. Religious men added that part.

The 7th Day Sabbath, or the Christ's Sabbath, as He is said to be the creator of all things, is Holy because the Christ made it Holy, according to His Own Words. It has nothing to do with Jew or Gentile.

"for mine house shall be called an house of prayer for all people."

Is. 58:13 If thou turn away thy foot from the sabbath, from doing thy pleasure on my holy day; and call the sabbath a delight, the holy of the LORD, honourable; and shalt honour him, not doing thine own ways, nor finding thine own pleasure, nor speaking thine own words:

14 Then shalt thou delight thyself in the LORD; and I will cause thee to ride upon the high places of the earth, and feed thee with the heritage of Jacob thy father: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it.

It's not about the Day, it's about Honoring the creator of the Day. Believing Him when HE says something even if there are "Other Voices" who say different. As the Story of Eve clearly demonstrated.

Sure the religions of the land have created their own sabbaths, as did the Pharisees. Given the warnings of the Christ and His Prophets and Disciples about religious men, it is to be expected.

Ez. 20:5 And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; In the day when I chose Israel, and lifted up mine hand unto the seed of the house of Jacob, and made myself known unto them in the land of Egypt, when I lifted up mine hand unto them, saying, I am the LORD your God;

God gave Israel "HIS LAWS". God is no respecter of persons.

Ez. 20:13 But the house of Israel rebelled against me in the wilderness: they walked not in my statutes, and they despised my judgments, which if a man do, he shall even live in them; and my sabbaths they greatly polluted: then I said, I would pour out my fury upon them in the wilderness, to consume them.

Can you find even one Commandment that God spent so much time warning people against polluting in the Law and Prophets? How can a person read God's Word and not know how Holy and important to Man this Sanctified Day is?

Yet, the Mainstream Preachers of Ezekiel's time despised it, polluted it. And the Mainstream Preachers in Jesus' time also despised and polluted it. And the Mainstream Preachers of our time also Despise and Pollute it.

It's simply a matter of believing the Christ and His Word's and Sanctification, or rejecting His Word's and believing the "Other Voices" out there.

Personally I stay away from all religious franchises, including SDA. Paul said the Holy Scriptures can make me "wise unto Salvation", and are also for doctrine, correction. instruction in Righteousness so that the servant of God can be thoroughly furnished unto all "GOOD WORKS".

Shall I not trust these Word's?

My advise is to stop listening to those who refuse to Honor and accept the Sanctification of the Holy Christ of the Bible.

Sorry so long, but the topic was important to God, He inspired a lot to be said about it.








Title: Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
Post by: 4WD on Wed Jan 08, 2020 - 15:43:53
Gal. 4:4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,
Just as I thought.  That verse says not one thing about what you said, i.e.,
Quote from: GB
"God also gave Jesus a "LAW"....

And for what it is worth that is another faulty translation in KJV; a better one is

Gal 4:4  But when the fullness of time had come, God sent forth his Son, born of woman, born under the law,

Jesus wasn't made; He wasn't created; He was born of Mary.
Title: Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
Post by: GB on Wed Jan 08, 2020 - 15:53:28
To whom was the commandment/law "Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die." made for? Was it not for sinless Adam? So, I would have to repeat, one must understand 1 Tim. 9-10 in the context of scriptures.

So, according to you, by saying Christ's Sabbath, you mean to refer to the seventh day spoken in Gen. 2:2-3 and in Lev. 23:3 and also that spoken in Mark 2:27-28. Thank you for the clarification.

My next clarificatory question to you is, what do you say is the definition of the Sabbath spoken in those passages?

It is the Christ's Holy, Sanctified, Hallowed Sabbath. You asked a question, I answered it.

If this statement is true, then you shouldn't be asking me questions, you should be asking yourself.








Title: Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
Post by: Michael2012 on Wed Jan 08, 2020 - 17:08:50
Hi,
I've been thinking about this.

A few comments: 

1. The Catholic Church teaches that when Adam and Eve sinned they lost the original holiness which they had at the beginning. To me that implies that they would have no experience of evil. But when they lost that original holiness they did.

2. Note that the text says they would  know good and evil not that they would know right and wrong.

3. The word for 'know' is Strong H3045 which can mean knowing in as experiencing (rather than know about). It's the same word used in Gen 4:1 "Now Adam knew Eve his wife, and she conceived and bore Cain" and Gen 4:17 "Cain knew his wife, and she conceived and bore Enoch".

So perhaps it's more about them experiencing evil than just knowing about morality.

I would have to say that while Strong H3045 can mean to know a person carnally, of sexual intercourse, as the sense used in Gen.4:1, it is certainly not the sense used in Gen. 3:22. The word is used in the same sense as in Gen. 3:22, in Gen. 3:,7 (consider reading). Further, the verse says "the man is become as one of us". That strongly suggest what is the sense of knowing good and evil. Further still, scriptures says "tree of the KNOWLEDGE of good and evil".

With regards your comment #2, with regards to morality, what is good is right, and what is evil is wrong.
Title: Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
Post by: winsome on Thu Jan 09, 2020 - 05:55:45
I would have to say that while Strong H3045 can mean to know a person carnally, of sexual intercourse, as the sense used in Gen.4:1, it is certainly not the sense used in Gen. 3:22. The word is used in the same sense as in Gen. 3:22, in Gen. 3:,7 (consider reading). Further, the verse says "the man is become as one of us". That strongly suggest what is the sense of knowing good and evil. Further still, scriptures says "tree of the KNOWLEDGE of good and evil".
.
There is mental knowledge and experiential knowledge.
Title: Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
Post by: GB on Thu Jan 09, 2020 - 06:02:51
Just as I thought.  That verse says not one thing about what you said, i.e.,
And for what it is worth that is another faulty translation in KJV; a better one is

Gal 4:4  But when the fullness of time had come, God sent forth his Son, born of woman, born under the law,

Jesus wasn't made; He wasn't created; He was born of Mary.

I posted scripture which answered your question. "Where did I read that God gave Jesus Law."

Your reply has nothing to do with your question the scriptures answered.
Title: Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
Post by: winsome on Thu Jan 09, 2020 - 06:51:53
I appreciate your zeal, but you are leaving out some very important Biblical Facts.

Gen. 2:2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.

3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

So the God of Abraham, the creator of "all things" set apart a certain day of the week, the 7th day, and "Sanctified it".
Hebrew for Sanctified = "to make, pronounce, or observe as clean (Ceremonially or morally) :- appoint, bid, consecrate, dedicate, defile, hallow, (be, keep,) Holy, keep, proclaim, purify, sanctify.

The God who made all things that are made, by Him and for Him, did this in the very beginning. You are free to assume that this same God withheld this sanctification from Adam or Noah, or Abraham if you like. But you have no evidence to support this assumption.

Gen. 26:5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

Again, we know Abraham kept God's Laws, statutes, Commandments, etc. Did God share with us what those Laws were? I say He did after the Children of Israel had forgotten them in Egypt.

You are free to believe this same God gave Abraham different Laws (except the Levitical Priesthood Abraham didn't have, as Levi wasn't born yet) than He gave Abraham's Children if you like, but you have no evidence to support this.
1. Scripture doesn't say that God " set apart a certain day of the week, the 7th day". You made that up.
2. Scripture doesn't say that God blessed and sanctified every 7th day. You made that up.
3. Scripture doesn't say that keeping a 7th day sabbath every week is one of God's laws that Abraham kept. You made that up.

Ex. 20: 8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.

9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:

10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:

Again, the Lord Thy God set apart, blessed above all others, and Sanctified this day long before there were "Children of Israel". This Sanctified Day is the "Sabbath of the Lord thy God".

11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.
.
In Ex 16 God gave the sabbath day to the Israelites. They seem to have a problem grasping the idea. It was new to them.
Therefore in Ex 20: God reminded them- "Remember the sabbath day". The remember was to remember what he taught them in Ex 16

You can make the argument that God "withheld" His Hallowed, Sanctified Sabbath from all men, even Noah and Abraham, if you like. But it is only an assumption. How did Noah know what animals were Clean, and what animals were unclean? Is there any written instruction from God showing Noah His Creation? No, there isn't. And yet Noah, who walked with God, knew what God had "sanctified as food". We find out later, after Abraham's Children had lost sight of God's Laws that Abraham obeyed, what He created for food. But the "creation" was always there.

It's important to remember what God Himself said about HIS OWN Laws, and who they were for.

Ex. 12:48 And when a stranger shall sojourn with thee, and will keep the passover to the LORD, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near and keep it; and he shall be as one that is born in the land: for no uncircumcised person shall eat thereof.

49 One law shall be to him that is homeborn, (Jew) and unto the stranger (Non-Jew) that sojourneth among you.

It is a popular doctrine of the religions of the land that God's Laws were only for the Jews. But as you can see, God's own Word exposes this doctrine as from man and not God.
Ex 12:48 & 49 are for those foreigners who wish to eat the Passover with the Jews - not for everyone. They had to be circumcised and follow the Jewish laws. In other words they had to become Jews.

If you start with verse 43 instead of cherry picking vs 48-49 you will read:43 And the Lord said to Moses and Aaron, “This is the ordinance of the passover: no foreigner shall eat of it;  44 but every slave that is bought for money may eat of it after you have circumcised him.
45 No sojourner or hired servant may eat of it.
.....
48 And when a stranger shall sojourn with you and would keep the passover to the Lord, let all his males be circumcised, then he may come near and keep it; he shall be as a native of the land. But no uncircumcised person shall eat of it.
49 There shall be one law for the native and for the stranger who sojourns among you.”
Note that "he shall be as a native of the land". In other words he becomes a Jew and therefore must follow Jewish laws.
There is no suggestion that other aliens must keep the Jewish laws.
In being circumcised they came into the Abrahamic Covenant and into the Mosaic Covenant.
Therefore they had to keep the Covenant laws.

Is. 56:1 Thus saith the LORD, Keep ye judgment, and do justice: for my salvation is near to come, and my righteousness to be revealed.

2 Blessed is the man that doeth this, and the son of man that layeth hold on it; that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and keepeth his hand from doing any evil.

3 Neither let the son of the stranger, (NON-Jew) that hath joined himself to the LORD, speak, saying, The LORD hath utterly separated me from his people: neither let the eunuch say, Behold, I am a dry tree.

4 For thus saith the LORD unto the eunuchs (non-Jew) that keep my sabbaths, and choose the things that please me, and take hold of my covenant;

5 Even unto them will I give in mine house and within my walls a place and a name better than of sons and of daughters: I will give them an everlasting name, that shall not be cut off.

6 Also the sons of the stranger, (Non-Jews) that join themselves to the LORD, to serve him, and to love the name of the LORD, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant;

7 Even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted upon mine altar; for mine house shall be called an house of prayer for all people.
Again it's all about belonging to the Covenant.
In verse 6 you emphasise "every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it" but not "and taketh hold of my covenant". Why not. It's all about Covenant keeping - the Mosaic Covenant.
We, Christians, do not belong to the Mosaic Covenant. We belong to the New Covenant.




The teaching that God's Holy, Sanctified Sabbath was not created for all men is a falsehood.
No it isn't. Claiming that we are obliged to j]keep the 7th day sabbath is false teaching.

As Jesus said "The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath". He could have said "made for the Jews", but He didn't. Religious men added that part.
Jesus was speaking to Jews.
He could have said "The sabbath was made for all men not just Jews". But he didn't.SDA's invented that.
The 7th Day Sabbath, or the Christ's Sabbath, as He is said to be the creator of all things, is Holy because the Christ made it Holy, according to His Own Words. It has nothing to do with Jew or Gentile.
It has everything to do with Jews and Gentiles.




"for mine house shall be called an house of prayer for all people."

Is. 58:13 If thou turn away thy foot from the sabbath, from doing thy pleasure on my holy day; and call the sabbath a delight, the holy of the LORD, honourable; and shalt honour him, not doing thine own ways, nor finding thine own pleasure, nor speaking thine own words:

14 Then shalt thou delight thyself in the LORD; and I will cause thee to ride upon the high places of the earth, and feed thee with the heritage of Jacob thy father: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it.

It's not about the Day, it's about Honoring the creator of the Day. Believing Him when HE says something even if there are "Other Voices" who say different. As the Story of Eve clearly demonstrated.

Sure the religions of the land have created their own sabbaths, as did the Pharisees. Given the warnings of the Christ and His Prophets and Disciples about religious men, it is to be expected.

Ez. 20:5 And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; In the day when I chose Israel, and lifted up mine hand unto the seed of the house of Jacob, and made myself known unto them in the land of Egypt, when I lifted up mine hand unto them, saying, I am the LORD your God;

God gave Israel "HIS LAWS". God is no respecter of persons.

Ez. 20:13 But the house of Israel rebelled against me in the wilderness: they walked not in my statutes, and they despised my judgments, which if a man do, he shall even live in them; and my sabbaths they greatly polluted: then I said, I would pour out my fury upon them in the wilderness, to consume them.

Can you find even one Commandment that God spent so much time warning people against polluting in the Law and Prophets? How can a person read God's Word and not know how Holy and important to Man this Sanctified Day is?

Yet, the Mainstream Preachers of Ezekiel's time despised it, polluted it. And the Mainstream Preachers in Jesus' time also despised and polluted it. And the Mainstream Preachers of our time also Despise and Pollute it.

It's simply a matter of believing the Christ and His Word's and Sanctification, or rejecting His Word's and believing the "Other Voices" out there.

Personally I stay away from all religious franchises, including SDA. Paul said the Holy Scriptures can make me "wise unto Salvation", and are also for doctrine, correction. instruction in Righteousness so that the servant of God can be thoroughly furnished unto all "GOOD WORKS".

Shall I not trust these Word's?

My advise is to stop listening to those who refuse to Honor and accept the Sanctification of the Holy Christ of the Bible.

Sorry so long, but the topic was important to God, He inspired a lot to be said about it.
You keep trying to apply God's laws for the Jews to all people.They don't.
I made a long post  -#145 - about this. But you have ignored it.
Title: Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
Post by: 4WD on Thu Jan 09, 2020 - 07:15:39
I posted scripture which answered your question. "Where did I read that God gave Jesus Law."

Your reply has nothing to do with your question the scriptures answered.
And that is but one more demonstration of your total inability in reading and understanding. The Scripture you posted has nothing to do with what you claimed. It says nothing about God giving Jesus anything.
Title: Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
Post by: GB on Thu Jan 09, 2020 - 09:46:34
And that is but one more demonstration of your total inability in reading and understanding. The Scripture you posted has nothing to do with what you claimed. It says nothing about God giving Jesus anything.

But it is evidence that Jesus was born with and under the same Law given by God to Israel.

Which is more support, along with the other scriptures posted, for the answer to the question you asked "Where did I read that God gave Jesus Law".

If your understanding of this scriptures is different than mine, that's OK. If you somehow believe that God didn't give Jesus Laws, that's OK too. You asked the question and I have given you my answer, along with the Holy Scriptures that led me to this doctrine.

If you don't believe my answer, that's OK as well.

 

Title: Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
Post by: 4WD on Thu Jan 09, 2020 - 10:48:41
But it is evidence that Jesus was born with and under the same Law given by God to Israel.

Which is more support, along with the other scriptures posted, for the answer to the question you asked "Where did I read that God gave Jesus Law".

If your understanding of this scriptures is different than mine, that's OK. If you somehow believe that God didn't give Jesus Laws, that's OK too. You asked the question and I have given you my answer, along with the Holy Scriptures that led me to this doctrine.

If you don't believe my answer, that's OK as well.
Not only do you not read and comprehend very well, you have almost no understanding of basic logic.

It is not whether I believe your answer; it is not even about believing you or your answer.  It is that your answer is just wrong. And any one with even a modest ability to read and understand would realize that immediately.
Title: Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
Post by: Michael2012 on Thu Jan 09, 2020 - 12:09:51
.
There is mental knowledge and experiential knowledge.
Perhaps. But if the sense is knowing by experience, that would then mean that the eating of the forbidden fruit would be an experience of good and evil which brings out the issue as to how that could be. And as I said the verse says "the man is become as one of us". That would make God as having such knowledge of good and evil in the experiential sense. To that I have a problem accepting. For while God definitely have knowledge of good and evil, it is not knowledge by the experience of good and the experience of evil. For even from eternity past, when there is yet no evil that came about, with God, from eternity, have knowledge of good and evil.

Also, if the meaning is that of the sense of knowing by experience, that would be problematic for verse 10 wherein it says "And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself." How then does Adam suddenly have issue with nakedness?
Title: Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
Post by: Michael2012 on Thu Jan 09, 2020 - 12:24:14
Quote from: Michael
To whom was the commandment/law "Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die." made for? Was it not for sinless Adam? So, I would have to repeat, one must understand 1 Tim. 9-10 in the context of scriptures.

So, according to you, by saying Christ's Sabbath, you mean to refer to the seventh day spoken in Gen. 2:2-3 and in Lev. 23:3 and also that spoken in Mark 2:27-28. Thank you for the clarification.

My next clarificatory question to you is, what do you say is the definition of the Sabbath spoken in those passages?
It is the Christ's Holy, Sanctified, Hallowed Sabbath. You asked a question, I answered it.

If this statement is true, then you shouldn't be asking me questions, you should be asking yourself.

The question is "what do you say is the definition of the Sabbath spoken in those passages?"

Your answer: It is the Christ's Holy, Sanctified, Hallowed Sabbath.

To me, your answer does not give any definition of the Sabbath.

Here's one definition. The Sabbath is the seventh day of the week.

Title: Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
Post by: GB on Thu Jan 09, 2020 - 14:19:22
Quote
author=winsome link=topic=74624.msg1055154333#msg1055154333 date=1578574313]
1. Scripture doesn't say that God " set apart a certain day of the week, the 7th day". You made that up.

2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.

3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

Not the 1st day, or the 3rd day, but the 7th day. To preach God didn't set this Day apart from the other 6 days of the week is a popular religious doctrine of the land, but is contrary to the Word's of God Himself. So I didn't make this up, I just believe the Word's of the Christ who created HIS Sabbath "For man".


Quote
2. Scripture doesn't say that God blessed and sanctified every 7th day. You made that up.

Can you show me any scripture that says, implies, or even suggests that the Sabbath that God created only referred to certain 7th days? 


Quote
3. Scripture doesn't say that keeping a 7th day sabbath every week is one of God's laws that Abraham kept. You made that up.

Gen. 26:5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

You can teach that God's Holy Sabbath Commandment was not intended to be hallowed every week if you like, but I find no support for this religious doctrine. You can also teach that God's Law doesn't include the 10 Commandments as well. But I don't think the scriptures support that doctrine either.

Quote
In Ex 16 God gave the sabbath day to the Israelites. They seem to have a problem grasping the idea. It was new to them.
Therefore in Ex 20: God reminded them- "Remember the sabbath day". The remember was to remember what he taught them in Ex 16

Actually God gave HIS LAWS and HIS Commandments to the Children of Israel.

The 4th Commandment, one of the Laws of God, was given to remind Abraham's Children that in 6 days God created the heavens and earth, and rested on the 7th day. And that God Blessed the 7th day, and Sanctified it according to the Scriptures. It said to "Remember the Sabbath to keep it Holy" then goes on to explain why.

It's in your own Bible.


Quote
Ex 12:48 & 49 are for those foreigners who wish to eat the Passover with the Jews - not for everyone. They had to be circumcised and follow the Jewish laws. In other words they had to become Jews.

Again, it is a falsehood to preach that God promoted Jewish Laws. He gave Abraham and Abraham's Children HIS LAWS, and said that a Non-Jew, who loved God enough to trust His Word's of instruction, would be considered one of His Children just as the Jews. "One Law for the Jew and non-Jew". Paul confirms this in his teaching.

Rom. 2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:

29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Again;

Rom. 2:10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

The religious doctrine that implies that Non-Jews could reject God's Word's then, or now, and still be accepted can not be supported by scriptures.


Quote
If you start with verse 43 instead of cherry picking vs 48-49 you will read:43 And the Lord said to Moses and Aaron, “This is the ordinance of the passover: no foreigner shall eat of it;  44 but every slave that is bought for money may eat of it after you have circumcised him.
45 No sojourner or hired servant may eat of it.


Were these "Strangers" who trusted God enough to obey Him, not purchased with the Blood of the Passover Lamb they partook of, just as those who trust in this same Christ today?

1 Cor. 6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?

20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.

I am not cherry picking anything here. I am purchased with the Blood of the Passover Lamb, just as the stranger or foreigner that honored God was purchased.

Rom. 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?


Quote
48 And when a stranger shall sojourn with you and would keep the Passover to the Lord, let all his males be circumcised, then he may come near and keep it; he shall be as a native of the land. But no uncircumcised person shall eat of it.
49 There shall be one law for the native and for the stranger who sojourns among you.”
Note that "he shall be as a native of the land". In other words he becomes a Jew and therefore must follow Jewish laws.

The teaching that God was a Jew, or that His Law are Jewish Laws is a deception that has snared "many" as prophesied.

When a person trusts God enough to be a "Doer" of His Instructions, they become a member of the Faithful "children of God, Spiritually Circumcised and becomes a "child of obedience" as opposed to a child of disobedience.

Quote
There is no suggestion that other aliens must keep the Jewish laws.

True, God never wanted men to keep the laws of the religions of the land, He wanted them to obey the Laws He created for man. Jew and Non-Jew as He tells us in His Word.

The Jews were not keeping His Sabbaths, nor His Judgments as it is written. They taught for doctrines the commandments of Men as Jesus exposed. Zechariahs was a faithful servant, and as a result he knew the Christ when He came to earth as a human. But those who polluted His Sabbaths were rejected.

As for Aliens honoring God with obedience, here is what the Christ sent Isaiah to teach us.

Is. 56:1 Thus saith the LORD, Keep ye judgment, and do justice: for my salvation is near to come, and my righteousness to be revealed.

2 Blessed is the man that doeth this, and the son of man that layeth hold on it; that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and keepeth his hand from doing any evil.

3 Neither let the son of the stranger, (Non-Jew) that hath joined himself to the LORD, speak, saying, The LORD hath utterly separated me from his people: neither let the eunuch say, Behold, I am a dry tree.

4 For thus saith the LORD unto the eunuchs that keep my sabbaths, and choose the things that please me, and take hold of my covenant;

5 Even unto them will I give in mine house and within my walls a place and a name better than of sons and of daughters: I will give them an everlasting name, that shall not be cut off.

6 Also the sons of the stranger, (Non-Jew) that join themselves to the LORD, to serve him, and to love the name of the LORD, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant;

7 Even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted upon mine altar; for mine house shall be called an house of prayer for all people.

Are these not the Word's of the Christ we are to serve?

Quote
In being circumcised they came into the Abrahamic Covenant and into the Mosaic Covenant.
Therefore they had to keep the Covenant laws.
Again it's all about belonging to the Covenant.

Circumcision, like drinking the Blood of Jesus, and eating His Flesh, is a Spiritual practice. The point about Abraham is that he was called to "Deny himself, take up his cross, and follow the Christ" (Gen. 12) This same Christ requires the same thing today. (Mark 8:34)

You have been tricked into believing God's Laws are Jewish Laws.

Quote
In verse 6 you emphasise "every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it" but not "and taketh hold of my covenant". Why not. It's all about Covenant keeping - the Mosaic Covenant.
We, Christians, do not belong to the Mosaic Covenant. We belong to the New Covenant.

You should read how the Creator of the New Covenant defines His New Covenant is. You will find that His Definition, and the religions of the land's definition, are two different things. (It's in Jer. 31) In the Christ's definition, He claims that "After those days" He will write His Laws on our hearts. Not remove them, destroy them, amend them. Given all the warnings about religious men deceiving folks, I really hope you will look for yourself.

Quote
No it isn't. Claiming that we are obliged to j]keep the 7th day sabbath is false teaching.

Eve was also told that it was a false teaching that she would die if she rejected the commandment. This "other religious voice" used some of God's Word to deceive her into believing she could live by her own vision, her own rules.

These examples were written for my admonition. I am not saying, nor have I said we are obligated to do anything. What I have done is post the Word's of God and attempt to enter into a discussion about them.


Quote
Jesus was speaking to Jews.
He could have said "The sabbath was made for all men not just Jews". But he didn't.

He never ever said His Holy Sabbath was only for the Jews. This is a deception that we have been taught since our youth. Below is the Word's of the Christ defining who He created HIS Holy Sabbath for. Shall we not trust Him?

Is. 56:6 Also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to the LORD, to serve him, and to love the name of the LORD, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant;

(I will write My Law on your heart, and I will forgive your sins)

7 Even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted upon mine altar; for mine house shall be called an house of prayer for all people.

So you preach "
Quote
He could have said "The sabbath was made for all men not just Jews". But he didn't"

But as you can see, this same Christ of the Bible did in fact tell us His Sabbath is for "ALL MEN", not just the Jews.

Now you have the same choice the mainstream preachers of Christ's time were faced with.

 Do you deny your own religious doctrine, taught for centuries by the religions of the land, and turn to the Christ's own Words?" Or you can reject these Word's of the Christ and work to preserve your religious traditions.

The Pharisees chose to defend their religion, while Nicodemus, in private, looked into this Same Christ's Words. I hope you will become a Nicodemus.

Quote
SDA's invented that. It has everything to do with Jews and Gentiles.

SDA did not invent the Sabbath, or the Commandment to remember it, nor the Commandment to keep it Holy. The Christ of the Bible did. It is His Sabbath, we should go to Him to find answers to our questions, not religious men.

Quote
You keep trying to apply God's laws for the Jews to all people. They don't.

It is the Christ, the Creator of all things, that has said God's Laws are for all people, not me. I just believe Him.


Title: Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
Post by: GB on Thu Jan 09, 2020 - 14:47:25
It is the Christ's Holy, Sanctified, Hallowed Sabbath. You asked a question, I answered it.

If this statement is true, then you shouldn't be asking me questions, you should be asking yourself.


The question is "what do you say is the definition of the Sabbath spoken in those passages?"

Your answer: It is the Christ's Holy, Sanctified, Hallowed Sabbath.

To me, your answer does not give any definition of the Sabbath.

Here's one definition. The Sabbath is the seventh day of the week.

Experience has shown me that every time I answer your question, you just move to the next, and the next and the next.

So I will ask you some questions. Maybe we can actually have a discussion this time.

Is. 58:12 And they that shall be of thee shall build the old waste places: thou shalt raise up the foundations of many generations; and thou shalt be called, The repairer of the breach, The restorer of paths to dwell in.

In your understanding, is this talking about the Christ? What is the Path He will restore, the one He Walked? Or is there another?

13 If thou turn away thy foot from the sabbath, from doing thy pleasure on my holy day; and call the sabbath a delight, the holy of the LORD, honourable; and shalt honour him, not doing thine own ways, nor finding thine own pleasure, nor speaking thine own words:

14 Then shalt thou delight thyself in the LORD; and I will cause thee to ride upon the high places of the earth, and feed thee with the heritage of Jacob thy father: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it.

In your religion, is there another way to "Delight myself" in the Lord of the Bible?









Title: Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
Post by: winsome on Fri Jan 10, 2020 - 04:03:34
2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.

3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

Not the 1st day, or the 3rd day, but the 7th day. To preach God didn't set this Day apart from the other 6 days of the week is a popular religious doctrine of the land, but is contrary to the Word's of God Himself. So I didn't make this up, I just believe the Word's of the Christ who created HIS Sabbath "For man".
No - you just made it up.
It's amazing that protestants keep pillorising Catholics for not keeping to scripture alone but then make up things that scripture doesn't say.

Can you show me any scripture that says, implies, or even suggests that the Sabbath that God created only referred to certain 7th days? 
So God blessed the seventh day and hallowed it, because on it God rested from all his work which he had done in creation. (Gen 2:3)The seventh day - singular. If you believe God blessed every seventh day then show me the scripture.

Gen. 26:5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

You can teach that God's Holy Sabbath Commandment was not intended to be hallowed every week if you like, but I find no support for this religious doctrine. You can also teach that God's Law doesn't include the 10 Commandments as well. But I don't think the scriptures support that doctrine either. [/quqote]
Show me the scripture that says Abraham kept a 7th day sabbath.

Actually God gave HIS LAWS and HIS Commandments to the Children of Israel.
The 4th Commandment, one of the Laws of God, was given to remind Abraham's Children that in 6 days God created the heavens and earth, and rested on the 7th day. And that God Blessed the 7th day, and Sanctified it according to the Scriptures. It said to "Remember the Sabbath to keep it Holy" then goes on to explain why.

It's in your own Bible.
Try answering my point instead of just re-iterating your opinions.
You still haven't answered my reply #145
Title: Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
Post by: Michael2012 on Fri Jan 10, 2020 - 04:16:33
Experience has shown me that every time I answer your question, you just move to the next, and the next and the next.

It's every time you don't really answer the question properly, I find myself the necessity to ask questions that I thought would lead you to answer properly.

Experience has shown me likewise that every time I ask a simple question, you either say something that really does not answer it or find a way to escape from it.

I hope you get to properly answer my question, which is simply a clarificatory question. The question is "what do you say is the definition of the Sabbath spoken in those passages?"

Quote from: GB
So I will ask you some questions. Maybe we can actually have a discussion this time.

Is. 58:12 And they that shall be of thee shall build the old waste places: thou shalt raise up the foundations of many generations; and thou shalt be called, The repairer of the breach, The restorer of paths to dwell in.

In your understanding, is this talking about the Christ? What is the Path He will restore, the one He Walked? Or is there another?

No.

Quote from: GB
13 If thou turn away thy foot from the sabbath, from doing thy pleasure on my holy day; and call the sabbath a delight, the holy of the LORD, honourable; and shalt honour him, not doing thine own ways, nor finding thine own pleasure, nor speaking thine own words:

14 Then shalt thou delight thyself in the LORD; and I will cause thee to ride upon the high places of the earth, and feed thee with the heritage of Jacob thy father: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it.

In your religion, is there another way to "Delight myself" in the Lord of the Bible?

Yes. I delight and take great pleasure in the Lord not only in the seventh day of the week, but every day, calling everyday a delight and honorable, and striving to honor every day that the Lord has made, by not going my own way and not doing as I please, but going in the way of the Lord and doing His will.
Title: Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
Post by: Michael2012 on Fri Jan 10, 2020 - 04:34:33
Some here use the following passage to support their false teaching concerning the Sabbath commandment, the 4th of the ten commandments given by God to Israel through Moses.

Genesis 2: 2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.

3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.


They make and wanted the passage to be saying that, even from as early as this time, God had commanded man to keep the Sabbath day as can be read according to the 4th of the 10 commandments. But whoever has understanding, as those who have the Holy Spirit, would not fall for this lie, because he clearly don't see in the passage that God had made such a commandment.
Title: Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
Post by: GB on Fri Jan 10, 2020 - 07:06:19
 author=winsome link=topic=74624.msg1055154367#msg1055154367 date=1578650614]
Quote
No - you just made it up.
It's amazing that protestants keep pillorising Catholics for not keeping to scripture alone but then make up things that scripture doesn't say.

Well, you are free to say what you please. But the Scriptures do say that God "Sanctified" the 7th Day of the 7 day week.

Your argument that He only blessed and sanctified the very first 7th day is made up, and frankly ridiculous. There isn't one place in the Bible that support this religious doctrine of yours. 

He also commanded "Thou shall not kill". Will you also preach to the world that God didn't mean "thou shall not kill" every day of the week.

The lengths religious men go to preserve their precious ancient religious traditions know no bounds.


Quote
So God blessed the seventh day and hallowed it, because on it God rested from all his work which he had done in creation. (Gen 2:3)The seventh day - singular.

Are you just joshing me here? Is this a prank? How many 7th days are there in a week?

Quote
If you believe God blessed every seventh day then show me the scripture.

You are serious aren't you. You have really been convinced that when God created the 7 day week, and sanctified the 7th day, He didn't mean "every week".

Quote
Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:

But you preach this isn't talking about "Every week"?

Where is your Biblical support for this religious doctrine?


10 But the seventh day (singular) is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:

But in your religion, not "Every 7th day" is Sanctified. Can you enlighten us as to which 7th days was to be hallowed, and which was to be rejected?
Quote
Try answering my point instead of just re-iterating your opinions.
You still haven't answered my reply #145

Actually I did answer your question regarding the Christ's New Covenant.

I don't believe the Catholic doctrine regarding it. I asked you to actually read what the Christ, the Creator of the New covenant, says HIS New Covenant is. It was prophesied by the Christ in Jer. 31.

So I did answer your question, you simply don't believe what the Christ says about His own New Covenant.





Title: Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
Post by: winsome on Fri Jan 10, 2020 - 09:16:28

Well, you are free to say what you please. But the Scriptures do say that God "Sanctified" the 7th Day of the 7 day week.
No, scripture doesn't say that God sanctified every 7th day. 
Scripture describes God creating the world in seven days. On the seventh day he rested. 
It doesn't say he rests every 7th day.Just as it doesn't say he creates birds and fishes every 5th day, or animals every 6th day.

Each day was a one off event , not repetitive, just as creation was a one off event not repetitive.

Your argument that He only blessed and sanctified the very first 7th day is made up, and frankly ridiculous. There isn't one place in the Bible that support this religious doctrine of yours. 
On the contrary scripture only says he sanctified the 7th day of his creating, just as it only says he created birds and fished on the 5th day and only created animals on the 6th day.

So God blessed the seventh day and hallowed it, because on it God rested from all his work which he had done in creation.   
It - singular

He also commanded "Thou shall not kill". Will you also preach to the world that God didn't mean "thou shall not kill" every day of the week.
A frankly ridiculous argument, not relevant to this issue at all.

The lengths religious men go to preserve their precious ancient religious traditions know no bounds.
 

Try applying that to your claims
 
Are you just joshing me here? Is this a prank? How many 7th days are there in a week?
There was one 7th day in the week of creation. 


Creation concludes: These are the generations of the heavens and the earth when they were created.

God didn't go on creating and resting the following week(s).

You are serious aren't you. You have really been convinced that when God created the 7 day week, and sanctified the 7th day, He didn't mean "every week".
I asked: "If you believe God blessed every seventh day then show me the scripture."Evidently you have no scripture - just your personal opinion

But you preach this isn't talking about "Every week"?

Where is your Biblical support for this religious doctrine?


10 But the seventh day (singular) is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:

But in your religion, not "Every 7th day" is Sanctified. Can you enlighten us as to which 7th days was to be hallowed, and which was to be rejected?

Now you have jumped to a totally different context. 
The context is the Covenant.  These are ongoing Covenant Law.
Just as the Covenant is ongoing so is the Law that pertains to it ongoing. 
If you break Covenant Law you break the Covenant. 

When the Covenant ceased the Law pertaining to it ceased.

Actually I did answer your question regarding the Christ's New Covenant.

I don't believe the Catholic doctrine regarding it. I asked you to actually read what the Christ, the Creator of the New covenant, says HIS New Covenant is. It was prophesied by the Christ in Jer. 31.

So I did answer your question, you simply don't believe what the Christ says about His own New Covenant.
Where did you answer it?Which post?
Title: Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
Post by: GB on Fri Jan 10, 2020 - 13:38:20
 author=winsome link=topic=74624.msg1055154379#msg1055154379 date=1578669388]
Quote
No, scripture doesn't say that God sanctified every 7th day. 
Scripture describes God creating the world in seven days. On the seventh day he rested. 
It doesn't say he rests every 7th day. Just as it doesn't say he creates birds and fishes every 5th day, or animals every 6th day.

Each day was a one off event , not repetitive, just as creation was a one off event not repetitive.
On the contrary scripture only says he sanctified the 7th day of his creating, just as it only says he created birds and fished on the 5th day and only created animals on the 6th day.

That is a fascinating religious doctrine. I've heard a lot of differing religious views about God's Sabbath, but your preaching that when God "Sanctifies" something, it only stays sanctified for one day is a first.

If I was to follow your logic, then the Sabbath Commandment is based on a lie. According to you, the 7th day was only special one time, when God rested in it.

 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.

9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:

10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:

So then according to you, only the first Sabbath was Holy, all subsequent 7th days are no different than any other because God never rested in it.

So this Commandment is based on a lie it seems, in your religion.

So then Israel was unjustly punished for despising and Polluting God's Sabbath, because in your religion, there is nothing special about the 7th day. It was only sanctified for one day.

So when Isaiah wrote;

 Is.56:6 Also the sons of the stranger, (non-Jews) that join themselves to the LORD, to serve him, and to love the name of the LORD, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant;

7 Even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted upon mine altar; for mine house shall be called an house of prayer for all people.

Isaiah is just making this up because in your religion, God didn't set apart and sanctify this day from the rest more than the one day He rested in it. And even if He did, it was only for the Jew in your religion.

I don't think the Christ lied to us through Isaiah.

And when this same alleged Prophet of the Most High said;
 
Is. 58:13 If thou turn away thy foot from the sabbath, from doing thy pleasure on my holy day; and call the sabbath a delight, the holy of the LORD, honourable; and shalt honour him, not doing thine own ways, nor finding thine own pleasure, nor speaking thine own words:

14 Then shalt thou delight thyself in the LORD; and I will cause thee to ride upon the high places of the earth, and feed thee with the heritage of Jacob thy father: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it.

He was just telling us more lies because the 7th day isn't Holy in your religion, It isn't Sanctified in your religion, and it isn't the Lord's Sabbath in your religion because God didn't rest "Every 7th day" even though His Ten Commandments tells us too.

So then when Jesus said "The Sabbath was made for man", in your religion this is also a lie, because there is no set apart,  "Sanctified" 7th day. It's all made up.

However, if a man believes "Every Word of God" as Jesus instructed, it become quite evident that God's Sanctification lasts for more than just one day. According to His Word, if a man believes in them as I do, the Sanctified Sabbath of the Lord will also be observed in the New Earth.

As for the New Covenant, I asked that you read in the Holy Scriptures where the Christ of the Bible Prophesied about HIS New Covenant. His Definition of His New Covenant is the one I choose to believe. It is quite different from the New Covenant taught in the religions of the land.







Title: Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
Post by: GB on Fri Jan 10, 2020 - 14:14:37
 author=Michael2012 link=topic=74624.msg1055154368#msg1055154368 date=1578651393]
Quote
It's every time you don't really answer the question properly, I find myself the necessity to ask questions that I thought would lead you to answer properly.

Experience has shown me likewise that every time I ask a simple question, you either say something that really does not answer it or find a way to escape from it.

I hope you get to properly answer my question, which is simply a clarificatory question. The question is "what do you say is the definition of the Sabbath spoken in those passages?"

I'm not convinced that I must design my answers to fit your religion in order for them to be considered  "Proper". My definition of the Christ's Holy Sabbath is shaped by how HE describes His Holy Sabbath. One such place is Is. 58. Another is in Ex. 20, and another in Lev. 23. I have posted these scriptures over and over, so it would be foolish to do so again. But this is the answer to your question ""what do you say is the definition of the Sabbath spoken in those passages". These "passages" are my definition.


Quote
No.

So then, in your religion, the Christ isn't the "repairer of the breach, or "the restorer of paths to walk in". OK, that explains a lot.

Quote
Yes. I delight and take great pleasure in the Lord not only in the seventh day of the week, but every day, calling everyday a delight and honorable, and striving to honor every day that the Lord has made, by not going my own way and not doing as I please, but going in the way of the Lord and doing His will.

Well I'm not sure how rejecting God's Commandment and creating your own is "Honoring Him".

You preach that there is nothing "Holy" about the Christ's Holy Sabbath. That it is not to be treated any differently than any other day.

In doing this, you, like the Jews are transgressing the Commandments of God by your own religious traditions.

Now maybe it doesn't matter. But to say you are "going in the way of the Lord" by rejecting the Sanctification of the Christ's Sabbath is a deception.

The Christ says;"“If thou turn away thy foot from the sabbath, from doing thy pleasure on my holy day; and call the sabbath a delight, the holy of the LORD, honourable

But by your own admission, you have created your own way. How can a person Honor God by rejecting His Instruction, and creating your own?

No one is saying not to Honor God every day, but according to HIM and HIS WORDS, He is telling us that "IF" we treat HIS Holy Sabbath differently than the other 6 days, "THEN" we shalt delight our self in the LORD; and I will cause thee to ride upon the high places of the earth,".

But you preach to the world that this isn't true. That you and your way is Holy, and the way of the Christ, that He is pleading with man to follow, isn't even worthy of your honor.

Quote
I delight and take great pleasure in the Lord not only in the seventh day of the week, but every day

How is purposely rejecting HIS Commandment, that HE is telling you to follow here, "Delighting yourself in the Lord"?

Why not just humble yourself to the Christ, and follow HIS way? Why must you pollute His Sabbath by injection your own religious tradition into it?

 


Title: Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
Post by: beam on Fri Jan 10, 2020 - 20:08:48
author=Michael2012 link=topic=74624.msg1055154368#msg1055154368 date=1578651393]
I'm not convinced that I must design my answers to fit your religion in order for them to be considered  "Proper". My definition of the Christ's Holy Sabbath is shaped by how HE describes His Holy Sabbath. One such place is Is. 58. Another is in Ex. 20, and another in Lev. 23. I have posted these scriptures over and over, so it would be foolish to do so again. But this is the answer to your question ""what do you say is the definition of the Sabbath spoken in those passages". These "passages" are my definition.
Question GB, God gave Israel somewhere in the neighborhood of 613 commands.  many of them concern the lay Israelite.   Why don't you consider observing all the other commands.  You pitch ten plus a form of tithing and the unclean meat law from the Book of the Law.  The remainder you treat just as do most of the Christians of the World.  You will not even consider that the Sinai covenant was given only to Israel and the remainder of the World has never been approached by God as a requirement.  The old covenant was replaced with the new one.  It happened at Calvary.  The words of that covenant were replaced by the words of the new one.  The weekly Sabbath was part of the covenant that was replaced.   There is no Sabbath command.  The SDA church, Messianics, and other churches that teach it is binding on all mankind have it wrong.  That is why Paul wrote for Christians to not allow law adherents to judge them for not abiding by the rules of the defunct covenant


Quote
So then, in your religion, the Christ isn't the "repairer of the breach, or "the restorer of paths to walk in". OK, that explains a lot.
It seems like some religions are not allowing the Holy Spirit as their guide.  Some prefer the defunct 10 commandments.  2Cor3:6-11

Quote
Well I'm not sure how rejecting God's Commandment and creating your own is "Honoring Him".
There is no Sabbath command to reject and who is creating a new one.  No one is saved by keeping days.

Quote
You preach that there is nothing "Holy" about the Christ's Holy Sabbath. That it is not to be treated any differently than any other day.
It was Holy for Israel.  God made the day to commemorate and remember creation and being taken out of bondage in Egypt.  The new covenant has a day of remembrance also,  Jesus dying for each of us.  We are to commemorate communion often.

Quote
In doing this, you, like the Jews are transgressing the Commandments of God by your own religious traditions.
Is there a law against tradition?  Where is the transgression?

Quote
Now maybe it doesn't matter. But to say you are "going in the way of the Lord" by rejecting the Sanctification of the Christ's Sabbath is a deception.
It was God's Sabbath.  Jesus was the Word until His birth.  Where there is no law there is no sin.  The Law was done away. 23Cor3:verse 11. KJV

Quote
The Christ says;"“If thou turn away thy foot from the sabbath, from doing thy pleasure on my holy day; and call the sabbath a delight, the holy of the LORD, honourable
Scripture was referring to Israel not Christians.

Quote
But by your own admission, you have created your own way. How can a person Honor God by rejecting His Instruction, and creating your own?
Man cannot create anything.  Man uses what it there that will be a benefit to mankind.  Where there is no law telling us we have to worship on a certain day then we are free to assemble when convenient.

Quote
No one is saying not to Honor God every day, but according to HIM and HIS WORDS, He is telling us that "IF" we treat HIS Holy Sabbath differently than the other 6 days, "THEN" we shalt delight our self in the LORD; and I will cause thee to ride upon the high places of the earth,".
the day was Holy for Israelites.  No other nation on Earth had the Sabbath.

Quote
But you preach to the world that this isn't true. That you and your way is Holy, and the way of the Christ, that He is pleading with man to follow, isn't even worthy of your honor.
I am sorry GB, if you are SDA you are preaching many things that are not scriptural.  Care to go into all of it?

Quote
How is purposely rejecting HIS Commandment, that HE is telling you to follow here, "Delighting yourself in the Lord"?
I have been on both sides of the issue and believe me Sabbath triers are no more blessed than anyone else.   

Quote
Why not just humble yourself to the Christ, and follow HIS way? Why must you pollute His Sabbath by injection your own religious tradition into it?
His way is the new covenant way.  A better way with better promises.  Israel failed miserably at Sabbath observance.  I suspect you pollute it just as they did.  For instance is your mind tuned to Holy conversation and THOUGHTS for the 24 hour period.  Tell me you don't think about what you are going to do the following week.  Tell me you don't ogle that new car coming into the parking lot or the nice looking opposite sex.   God relieved Israel of the requirement at Calvary. 
Title: Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
Post by: Michael2012 on Sat Jan 11, 2020 - 04:29:02
Quote from: Michael
It's every time you don't really answer the question properly, I find myself the necessity to ask questions that I thought would lead you to answer properly.

Experience has shown me likewise that every time I ask a simple question, you either say something that really does not answer it or find a way to escape from it.

I hope you get to properly answer my question, which is simply a clarificatory question. The question is "what do you say is the definition of the Sabbath spoken in those passages?"
I'm not convinced that I must design my answers to fit your religion in order for them to be considered  "Proper". My definition of the Christ's Holy Sabbath is shaped by how HE describes His Holy Sabbath. One such place is Is. 58. Another is in Ex. 20, and another in Lev. 23. I have posted these scriptures over and over, so it would be foolish to do so again. But this is the answer to your question ""what do you say is the definition of the Sabbath spoken in those passages". These "passages" are my definition.

Dishonesty is of the devil not of God. Every child of God knows that.

Nobody is asking you to be convinced that you must design your answer to fit any one's religion. What is asked of you is simply one that properly answer what is asked. You speak of Sabbath. I asked of you what is the definition of the Sabbath spoken in those passages. And you answer saying "It is the Christ's Holy, Sanctified, Hallowed Sabbath.". It's like if one ask for the definition of "baptism" spoken in the NT scriptures, and one answers that it is the baptism of the Holy Spirit, he would not really be answering what is asked. That isn't a proper answer. You habitually answer that way it seems. A proper answer would go something like this: Baptism refers to the act of "immersing" of ......etc. Whether the definition is right or wrong is not the matter. The answer is proper in that it gives a definition of Baptism, which is what is asked.

So, what is the definition of "Sabbath" that you preach, so people would know what you are meaning by it? Do you mean by it as being the seventh day starting from the day that God created? Do you mean by it as being the seventh day of the 7 day calendar week? If so, what calendar would that be? Do you mean by it as being the day of God's rest from His creation work? Do you mean by it as being the day of man's rest from his work? What work of man would that be? I, and I guess others as well here, would like to know what Sabbath is to you, so we can all know what it is you mean by it when you refer to it and speak about it.

Quote from: GB
Quote from: Michael
Quote from:
So I will ask you some questions. Maybe we can actually have a discussion this time.

Is. 58:12 And they that shall be of thee shall build the old waste places: thou shalt raise up the foundations of many generations; and thou shalt be called, The repairer of the breach, The restorer of paths to dwell in.

In your understanding, is this talking about the Christ? What is the Path He will restore, the one He Walked? Or is there another?

No.
So then, in your religion, the Christ isn't the "repairer of the breach, or "the restorer of paths to walk in". OK, that explains a lot.

If you think that it is the Christ, then you have an erroneous opinion. That is not what can be read and understood in Isaiah 58 scriptures. That apparently is just what it is you want that scriptures to say. And that sure explains a lot.

Quote from: GB
Quote from: Michael
Yes. I delight and take great pleasure in the Lord not only in the seventh day of the week, but every day, calling everyday a delight and honorable, and striving to honor every day that the Lord has made, by not going my own way and not doing as I please, but going in the way of the Lord and doing His will.
Well I'm not sure how rejecting God's Commandment and creating your own is "Honoring Him".

Why am I not surprised that you conclude and here make a false accusation that I reject God's commandment and that I create my own "honoring Him"? Are you presenting yourself as a natural liar? Well, you are doing a great job at that, I would have to say.

Quote from: Gb
You preach that there is nothing "Holy" about the Christ's Holy Sabbath. That it is not to be treated any differently than any other day.

Another GB lie? I don't preach anything of that sort GB. In fact, I would consider every day that the Lord had made as "Holy", from the first day to the seventh day. And if you only know how to read posts, you would know that I said that I strive to honor every day that the Lord has made. 

In your religion, are the other six days unholy and only the seventh day is that which you take as "Holy"? Do you delight and take only the seventh day as honorable, but not the other six days?

Quote from: GB
In doing this, you, like the Jews are transgressing the Commandments of God by your own religious traditions.

Unlike the Jews, I don't have any issues with religious tradition GB. Where do those lies come from GB? Hearing "Voices" GB?

And here, you pass judgement on me that I am transgressing God's commandments by that.

Why, is there anything evil in delighting and taking great pleasure in the Lord everyday? Is there anything evil in calling everyday that the Lord has made a delight and honorable? Is there anything evil in striving to honor every day that the Lord has made, by not going my own way and not doing as I please, but going in the way of the Lord and doing His will? I am beginning to get the impression that in your religion, you find evil in those.
 
Quote from: GB
Now maybe it doesn't matter. But to say you are "going in the way of the Lord" by rejecting the Sanctification of the Christ's Sabbath is a deception.

Another fabricated lie. I am not surprised. That's you.

Quote from: GB
The Christ says;"“If thou turn away thy foot from the sabbath, from doing thy pleasure on my holy day; and call the sabbath a delight, the holy of the LORD, honourable

But by your own admission, you have created your own way. How can a person Honor God by rejecting His Instruction, and creating your own?

No GB. What you are accusing me of there is yet again another of your fabricated lies. So your question is coming from that. Have your strawman answer that.

Quote from: GB
No one is saying not to Honor God every day, but according to HIM and HIS WORDS, He is telling us that "IF" we treat HIS Holy Sabbath differently than the other 6 days, "THEN" we shalt delight our self in the LORD; and I will cause thee to ride upon the high places of the earth,".

GB, scriptures does not say that God says we treat "HIS Holy Sabbath differently than the other 6 days". It is you who say that.

Besides God says what is written in Isaiah 58:12 to the children of Israel. Is your father Jacob? Are you an Israelite, a descendant of any of them whom God had taken out from slavery in Egypt and had made a covenant with whose mediator is Moses? No?

Quote from: GB
But you preach to the world that this isn't true. That you and your way is Holy, and the way of the Christ, that He is pleading with man to follow, isn't even worthy of your honor.

The master creator of strawman never fails to strike when the going gets tough. Lies, lies, lies. It's all over your post. Oh my!

Quote from: GB
How is purposely rejecting HIS Commandment, that HE is telling you to follow here, "Delighting yourself in the Lord"?

Why not just humble yourself to the Christ, and follow HIS way? Why must you pollute His Sabbath by injection your own religious tradition into it?

There's nothing new. It's all the same things said, lies.


What is clear and true is that for you, if I got you right, seem to believe that one will not be saved if he fails to follow what God commanded of Israel, to "Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy", or that one who fails to do it will go from saved to lost.

It seems that the problem with that is the acknowledgment of the truth in scriptures, that God at times gave commandments to specific chosen persons, and to specific chosen people. The point is that, not every commandment of God is for all people. One must be careful to realize this and read scriptures in this light. Do you want me to show this truth to you in scriptures? 
Title: Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
Post by: RB on Sat Jan 11, 2020 - 04:56:10
This thread and another one very close to this is one is going nowhere! Folks are missing the true teachings of the word of God when they get overly worked up concerning such subjects and miss so much of the truth on what truly is pleasing to God concerning practical godliness. Our religion is not limited to Sunday worship in a place designated for worship, or a home~ neither is it limited to Saturday worship~In fact, God rejects those who have a ritual of godliness but deny its authority in their personal lives (2nd Timothy 3:5). The word of God addresses our day-to-day life, and faithful and honest preaching includes the whole counsel of God, no matter how uncomfortable for the speaker or audience. Proverbs and even the church epistles are CAREFUL not to exalt a CERTAIN DAY over ANOTHER day, but deals with our worship of God in ALL OF OUR THOUGHTS WORDS AND DEEDS EVERY DAY OF OUR LIFE! 

Keeping Jesus Christ’s commandments in our private daily life proves more devotion than not worshipping or worshipping on certain DAYS OF THE WEEKS. Selah! Eating in MODERATION proves much more devotion to God than WHAT WE EAT! It amazes me of the outward, visual obesity that churchgoers on SATURDAY OR SUNDAY parade into their church services to worship God, when it is obvious that their God is their belly! How much do we love Him? Are we humble enough to hear what He has to say about us remembering the poor or the ones that you truly have to work hard to love when you are having banqueting with your friends and leaving them out...... all relationships, money, marring, facial expressions to parents, cremation, horoscopes, swearing, clothing, friends, savings, drinking, eating, etc.? 

I'm fully convinced that we worship God 24/7 and a certain day over another day proves nothing as far as how much do we truly love him and if we are INDEED serving him 24/7.

I'm convinced that the sabbath day is a day TO REST following SIX WORKING DAYS and it may vary from person to person according to their vocation!  The Jewish Sabbath days and their limitations are not the same for us under the NT~even though I believe in resting the SEVENTH DAY following six working days for man's BENEFIT for God gave it for that very purpose! The Sabbath day was instituted FOR MAN, not man for the Sabbath!

I'm fully convinced that the first day of the week in the NT is the Lord's day that he came forth VICTROIUSLY from the grave and that the first-century believers came together on the Lord's day to hear the word of God so that they could go forth and LIVE by what they had learned in word, deeds, and thoughts every day of their life. But, that being so, the scriptures said VERY LITLLE about a certain day OVER another and for GOOD REASONS! Men would do and say JUST AS THEY ARE DOING NOW, in exalting a day over another and leaving off God's many hundreds of other commandments, some of which I mentioned above.
Quote from: JESUS CHRIST
Luke 14:12-14~"Then said he also to him that bade him, When thou makest a dinner or a supper, call not thy friends, nor thy brethren, neither thy kinsmen, nor thy rich neighbours; lest they also bid thee again, and a recompence be made thee. But when thou makest a feast, call the poor, the maimed, the lame, the blind: And thou shalt be blessed; for they cannot recompense thee: for thou shalt be recompensed at the resurrection of the just."
If we do not practice such scriptures than we are hypocrites and it matters little what day of the week one goes through the motion of worshipping God, that man's religion IS VAIN and worthless!
Quote from: James the apostle
James 1:26,27~"If any man among you seem to be religious, and bridleth not his tongue, but deceiveth his own heart, this man's religion is vain. Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world."
No mention about observing a certain day~that only makes one a good Pharisee......"fair...I...SEE".....not a sincere humble child of God who loves God and keeps his many hundreds of commandments hidden in his heart!

Title: Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
Post by: winsome on Sat Jan 11, 2020 - 06:04:48
That is a fascinating religious doctrine. I've heard a lot of differing religious views about God's Sabbath, but your preaching that when God "Sanctifies" something, it only stays sanctified for one day is a first. 
 
That is a false argument. You are extrapolating from one incident to a generality.
If I go to a cinema on a particular Thursday it doesn't mean I go to the cinema every Thursday.
As I have pointed out several times, each day of creation was unique.
 
God created fishes and birds on the 6th day. Does that mean he creates fished and birds every 6th day?
Of course not.
 
If I was to follow your logic, then the Sabbath Commandment is based on a lie. According to you, the 7th day was only special one time, when God rested in it.
That's not my logic so your argument fails. The 7th day of creation was special, not every 7th day until God made it special for the Israelites in the desert (Ex 16:23)
 
Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.

9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:

10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:

So then according to you, only the first Sabbath was Holy, all subsequent 7th days are no different than any other because God never rested in it.

So this Commandment is based on a lie it seems, in your religion.

So then Israel was unjustly punished for despising and Polluting God's Sabbath, because in your religion, there is nothing special about the 7th day. It was only sanctified for one day.
As I keep pointing out, God instituted the 7th day sabbath for the Israelites in the desert (Ex 16:23).
It was a sign of their Covenant with God. Keeping it was part of  keeping the Covenant.
God also made it a day for a sacred convocation (Lve 23:3) for them.
He made it part of Covenant Law to observe it every 7th day..
 
But none of this started until Ex 16:23.
 
So when Isaiah wrote;

 Is.56:6 Also the sons of the stranger, (non-Jews) that join themselves to the LORD, to serve him, and to love the name of the LORD, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant;

7 Even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted upon mine altar; for mine house shall be called an house of prayer for all people.

Isaiah is just making this up because in your religion, God didn't set apart and sanctify this day from the rest more than the one day He rested in it. And even if He did, it was only for the Jew in your religion.

I don't think the Christ lied to us through Isaiah.

And when this same alleged Prophet of the Most High said;
 
Is. 58:13 If thou turn away thy foot from the sabbath, from doing thy pleasure on my holy day; and call the sabbath a delight, the holy of the LORD, honourable; and shalt honour him, not doing thine own ways, nor finding thine own pleasure, nor speaking thine own words:

14 Then shalt thou delight thyself in the LORD; and I will cause thee to ride upon the high places of the earth, and feed thee with the heritage of Jacob thy father: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it.

He was just telling us more lies because the 7th day isn't Holy in your religion, It isn't Sanctified in your religion, and it isn't the Lord's Sabbath in your religion because God didn't rest "Every 7th day" even though His Ten Commandments tells us too.

So then when Jesus said "The Sabbath was made for man", in your religion this is also a lie, because there is no set apart,  "Sanctified" 7th day. It's all made up.
I've been through all this. Stop repeating the same refuted arguments and wasting my time.
 
However, if a man believes "Every Word of God" as Jesus instructed, it become quite evident that God's Sanctification lasts for more than just one day. According to His Word, if a man believes in them as I do, the Sanctified Sabbath of the Lord will also be observed in the New Earth.
You can believe what you like but your beliefs are not supported by scripture
 

As for the New Covenant, I asked that you read in the Holy Scriptures where the Christ of the Bible Prophesied about HIS New Covenant. His Definition of His New Covenant is the one I choose to believe. It is quite different from the New Covenant taught in the religions of the land.
I just want to know which posts you answered this about the New Covenant.
 
If you cannot point to it then your claim that you answered is false.
 
 
Title: Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
Post by: GB on Sat Jan 11, 2020 - 08:18:49
 author=beam link=topic=74624.msg1055154415#msg1055154415 date=1578708528]
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Question GB, God gave Israel somewhere in the neighborhood of 613 commands.


For 25 years I studied the Bible apart from any mainstream religious influence, at least as much as is possible in our world today. What I found is that what the Scriptures teach, and what religious men teach are two different things. Which confirmed all the Prophesies, including warnings from Jesus Himself, which warn of religious men teaching differently than what God teaches. And also aligns with all the examples of religious men through out the Bible who teach differently than what God teaches.

So given that God is not a liar, at least not in my mind, there are "many" religious men who teach differently than God.

This is a Biblical, Spiritual, truth that can not be denied if one relies on the Holy Scriptures for doctrine.

You have provided a perfect example of a man who has been influenced by "other Voices" of religious men that teach falsehoods. God did not command Israel to obey 613 laws. This number was made up by religious men to make God look like an unjust God who burdens His People with countless, burdensome laws. This is done to convince people to reject God's Laws, just as the "other religious voice" convinced Eve. It is a lie, a falsehood which you promote, but can not back up.

The Mainstream Preachers of Christ's time did the same thing. They also taught lies about God and His Laws to convince folks to follow the religious tradition of man, which transgressed the Commandments of God.

There is no 613 laws commanded by God for Israel to follow. It is an insidious lie that you will not even try to defend, if you actually really ever looked at the website that promotes this myth.

The sad thing is that because of Pride, even when religious men look at this myth and see that they were deceived, the humiliation of admitting their error is just too much to bear for most.

My hope for you is that you will look into this myth and be corrected. Then maybe we can have an intellectually honest discussion about scriptures. Until then, this conversation is a vanity.


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many of them concern the lay Israelite.   Why don't you consider observing all the other commands.  You pitch ten plus a form of tithing and the unclean meat law from the Book of the Law.  The remainder you treat just as do most of the Christians of the World.  You will not even consider that the Sinai covenant was given only to Israel and the remainder of the World has never been approached by God as a requirement.

What I pitch is what the Scriptures say, all of them, not just a few that can be wrested to promote some religious tradition of men.

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"the remainder of the World has never been approached by God"

See, you are doing it again. You are promoting falsehood you heard from some religious man somewhere.

Joshua 2:9 And she said unto the men, I know that the LORD hath given you the land, and that your terror is fallen upon us, and that all the inhabitants of the land faint because of you.

10 For we have heard how the LORD dried up the water of the Red sea for you, when ye came out of Egypt; and what ye did unto the two kings of the Amorites, that were on the other side Jordan, Sihon and Og, whom ye utterly destroyed.

The whole city of Jericho knew of the God of Abraham and His Chosen People. They could all have become Rehab's if they chose and God would have accepted them just as HIS Laws that He gave Israel promised.

Did the Jews have an advantage? Yes, much in every way, because God did give HIS Laws to them. But with many God was not well pleased, because they rebelled against Him. They didn't follow God's Laws, but rejected them and "taught for doctrines the Commandments of men". But had they listened to God and taught the truth, there would have been a lot more Rehabs.

Is. 56:6 Also the sons of the stranger, (Non- Jews)that join themselves to the LORD, to serve him, and to love the name of the LORD, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant;

7 Even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted upon mine altar; for mine house shall be called an house of prayer for all people.

But Israel refused to teach God's Way.

Ez. 36:20 And when they entered unto the heathen, whither they went, they profaned my holy name, when they said to them, These are the people of the LORD, and are gone forth out of his land.

21 But I had pity for mine holy name, which the house of Israel had profaned among the heathen, whither they went.

Paul confirms.

Rom. 2:23 Thou that makest thy boast of the law, through breaking the law dishonourest thou God?

24 For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles through you, as it is written.

It wasn't God's Law that separated the rest of the world from Him, it was the corrupt Preachers of the first covenant God made with Israel, charged with the Priesthood duties of administering God's Laws and providing for atonement of sins.

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  The old covenant was replaced with the new one.  It happened at Calvary.  The words of that covenant were replaced by the words of the new one.


Yes, and we can even go straight to the Creator of the New Covenant and hear the Christ Himself define it for us.

Jer. 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel;

OK Beam, here it is. You can read it for yourself without any "Priest" as a middle man. Just you, and the Word of God which became flesh.

 After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, (Just as He said, just you and the Word's of the Christ) and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more. (No Levitical Priesthood "works of the Law" needed, just you and the Christ.

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The weekly Sabbath was part of the covenant that was replaced.
 

There, you are doing it again. Preaching things about God's Word that are untrue. You just read HIM defining HIS New Covenant. Where does He say this anywhere in His Inspired Holy Scriptures?

He doesn't Beam. Religious man does, but God's Word doesn't. Read for yourself.

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There is no Sabbath command.  The SDA church, Messianics, and other churches that teach it is binding on all mankind have it wrong.  That is why Paul wrote for Christians to not allow law adherents to judge them for not abiding by the rules of the defunct covenant

Paul never did any such thing. Here is what Paul said.

Col. 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

The Sabbaths of the Lord are HIS Sabbaths, created for man. They are not a creation of man, or a tradition of Man. It's in your own Bible.

16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:

17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

Religious traditions of men are shadows of nothing.

Again, like your 613 laws myth, you are listening to "other religious voices" like Eve did. I implore you to "come out of her" and look into the scriptures your own self.

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It seems like some religions are not allowing the Holy Spirit as their guide.  Some prefer the defunct 10 commandments.  2Cor3:6-11

This verse doesn't say God destroyed His Laws that He promised to write on the hearts of His People. The "Glory of Moses" was done away with, "Moses Seat", the manner in which God's Law is administered. No more death to atone for sins. You are being tricked by religious men if you think this verse wipes out the New Covenant the Christ promised.

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There is no Sabbath command to reject and who is creating a new one.  No one is saved by keeping days.
It was Holy for Israel.

That is another myth you have learned from religious man. And have been convinced to promote it.

Is 58:13 If thou turn away thy foot from the sabbath, from doing thy pleasure on my holy day; and call the sabbath a delight, the holy of the LORD, honourable; and shalt honour him, not doing thine own ways, nor finding thine own pleasure, nor speaking thine own words:

It was only Holy for Israel because it was Holy to God.

It is the Christ's Holy Feast Beam. We are told to "Be Holy for I am Holy". Jesus didn't follow His Sabbath because it was a worthless Jewish Tradition, He followed it because He was Holy, and the Sabbath is Holy unto the Lord. At least according to the Christ of the Bible. 



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God made the day to commemorate and remember creation and being taken out of bondage in Egypt.  The new covenant has a day of remembrance also,  Jesus dying for each of us.  We are to commemorate communion often.
Is there a law against tradition?  Where is the transgression?

If a man's religious traditions cause one to break the commandments of God, then this tradition is sin. Bible 101!

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It was God's Sabbath.  Jesus was the Word until His birth.

Then why do you reject His Word where His Sabbaths are concerned? He didn't, and neither did Paul.

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  Where there is no law there is no sin.  The Law was done away. 23Cor3:verse 11. KJV

That is what the serpent convinced Eve of. Religious man's twisting of this scriptures doesn't make the Word's of the entire Bible void. Well, in man's religion it does, but the Christ teaches no such thing.

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Scripture was referring to Israel not Christians.

Rom. 2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:

29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

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Man cannot create anything.  Man uses what it there that will be a benefit to mankind.  Where there is no law telling us we have to worship on a certain day then we are free to assemble when convenient.

The Law says to keep His Sabbath Holy, and don't work on it. You are confusing, once again, what the Christ says and what religious man says. You are free to accept or reject His Word. And the consequences for either path is clear spelled out.

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the day was Holy for Israelites.  No other nation on Earth had the Sabbath.

Actually no it wasn't. It was Holy for Zechariahs and Simeon and Anna, but not the Pharisees. They "despised" God's Sabbaths, and greatly Polluted God's Sabbaths. But the Jews and Non-Jews alike who "joined themselves to the Lord", and refused to Pollute His Holy Sabbath, they will be given a name better than that of sons and daughters. At least that is what the Christ of the Bible said. It's in your own Bible.

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I am sorry GB, if you are SDA you are preaching many things that are not scriptural. Care to go into all of it?

I am not SDA and neither was Jesus. But we both had respect unto the Father's Sabbaths. In my view, SDA and your religion are no different that Catholic or LDS, or AOG. They all transgress God's Commandments by their own, sometimes ancient, religious traditions. It is a mistake to think your transgressions or the falsehoods you promote and less important than theirs. As Jesus said;

Luke 13:1 There were present at that season some that told him of the Galilaeans, whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices.

2 And Jesus answering said unto them, Suppose ye that these Galilaeans were sinners above all the Galilaeans, because they suffered such things?

3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

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I have been on both sides of the issue and believe me Sabbath triers are no more blessed than anyone else. 


In your and their religion this may be true. But for the Jew or non-Jew that "joins himself to the Lord", and who doesn't pollute His Holy Sabbath, they are blessed. At least according to the Christ who created His Sabbath for man.

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His way is the new covenant way.  A better way with better promises.  Israel failed miserably at Sabbath observance.

Yes, "many were overthrown in the Wilderness" because of their rebellion, but not all. Daniel, Zechariahs, Simeon.

And yes, we no longer are forced to go to the Levite Priests to hear God's Word, and we are no longer required to take an animal sacrifice to the Levite Priest for atonement of sins, according to the Priesthood covenant God made with Israel on Mt. Sinai. A new and better way. Besides God gave Israel His Sabbath before Mt. Sinai.

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  I suspect you pollute it just as they did.


I would expect such a comment from you given the prophesies of religious men, and the fact that it was religious men who laid sin on the only perfect human ever born. This is why Paul taught believers not to judge them in their respect of His Sabbaths. And also not to let religious men beguile me of my reward in a voluntary humility.

I am striving to enter the narrow gate. And I believe, as does Paul, "all thing written in the Law and Prophets" that Jesus said would be here as long as this earth is here.

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For instance is your mind tuned to Holy conversation and THOUGHTS for the 24 hour period.  Tell me you don't think about what you are going to do the following week.  Tell me you don't ogle that new car coming into the parking lot or the nice looking opposite sex.

Don't project your own sins on others. I have sin in me no doubt. I am a sinner. And Jesus created His Laws and Sabbaths for me. He created his Sabbath "FOR ME". This is not "another religious voice" saying this, but the Holy Christ.

You are doing exactly what the Mainstream Preachers of Christ's time did.

Matt. 23:13 But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.

Daniel, Zechariahs, Simeon, the Wise Men, Anna and whole host of other examples of the faithful in the Bible didn't "fail miserably". Don't project your own lawlessness on these folks either.


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   God relieved Israel of the requirement at Calvary.

Rom. 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

My friend Beam, I hope with all my heart that you will stop listening to all those other religious voices out there, humble yourself to the Christ, and be a "doer" of His Sayings, and not just a hearer. Yes, religious men will make fun of you as they did Jesus and all His Prophets and Disciples, yes, you will suffer humiliation.

But the Christ of the Bible is faithful to perform His Promises. His Way is not a burden and a yoke of bondage, as we have been taught since our youth. Man's way is the path to destruction, not God's.



Title: Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
Post by: GB on Sat Jan 11, 2020 - 09:21:38
 author=winsome link=topic=74624.msg1055154428#msg1055154428 date=1578744288]
 
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That is a false argument. You are extrapolating from one incident to a generality.
If I go to a cinema on a particular Thursday it doesn't mean I go to the cinema every Thursday.
As I have pointed out several times, each day of creation was unique.
 
God created fishes and birds on the 6th day. Does that mean he creates fished and birds every 6th day?
Of course not.

Did God Sanctify the Cinema, or the Thursday? I agree that each day was unique. God only rested, Blessed and Sanctified the 7th day, at least according to Him.

I'm simply trying to find out where you got this teaching that God's Sanctification and Blessing only lasted one day. I have searched the scriptures and can find nothing to support this doctrine of yours, and you provide nothing but your own words.

Gen.2:2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.

3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.
 
Ex. 16:22 And it came to pass, that on the sixth day they gathered twice as much bread, two omers for one man: and all the rulers of the congregation came and told Moses.

23 And he said unto them, This is that which the LORD hath said, To morrow is the rest of the holy sabbath unto the LORD: bake that which ye will bake to day, and seethe that ye will seethe; and that which remaineth over lay up for you to be kept until the morning.

Where do you get the religious doctrine that God's Holy Sabbath wasn't Holy until Israel forgot the God of Joseph?

Why was the Sabbath Rest Holy? Isn't it because God Blessed it, and Sanctified it?

Do you have any other example of a Sanctification of God that lasted only one day? Or in your religion, is this the only time God's Sanctification only lasted one day?

John 10:36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?

Was this another example of God's Sanctification only lasting one day?

You may be right, I just need more than your own words. Something from God's Word, just one scripture that I can see where God's Blessings and Sanctifications only lasted one day. Just one.

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 I just want to know which posts you answered this about the New Covenant. If you cannot point to it then your claim that you answered is false.

#194;

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You should read how the Creator of the New Covenant defines His New Covenant is. You will find that His Definition, and the religions of the land's definition, are two different things. (It's in Jer. 31) In the Christ's definition, He claims that "After those days" He will write His Laws on our hearts. Not remove them, destroy them, amend them. Given all the warnings about religious men deceiving folks, I really hope you will look for yourself.

I didn't falsely accuse you of anything. You are preaching that when God Blessed and Sanctified His Holy 7th Day, it only lasted one day. I'm trying to find where in scriptures you find this doctrine.




Title: Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
Post by: GB on Sat Jan 11, 2020 - 10:07:22
 author=RB link=topic=74624.msg1055154426#msg1055154426 date=1578740170]
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This thread and another one very close to this is one is going nowhere! Folks are missing the true teachings of the word of God when they get overly worked up concerning such subjects and miss so much of the truth on what truly is pleasing to God concerning practical godliness. Our religion is not limited to Sunday worship in a place designated for worship, or a home~ neither is it limited to Saturday worship

It has nothing to do about a day of worship, as we should honor and respect the Word of God every day. It has to do with Honoring the Christ and trusting HIS Word's over the religious voices of the land.

While it is true there is nowhere in the Bible where the Holy Sabbath of the Lord, was changed from the 7th to the 1st day, as you preach. It is also not true that the 7th Day is the only day of worship.

The Holy 7th day Sabbath is basically a fast from the wicked world we live in. A foreshadow of the time when our "work" to over come, even as He overcame, is over. A shadow of the time when we will no longer need to "Put on" His Armor to resist the devil, when we will no longer need "escapes" from temptation. But until then we Honor Him and are strengthened though Him by trusting His Word's over the religious voices of the land.

Yes, there are religious voices, men who come in Christ's Name, men who use God's Word, just as the serpent did, to convince men to reject the Path foreordained by God that we should walk in them.

And most folks will go in thereat. But for those who believe "Every Word of God", there is another path in which He tells us to "Strive to enter".

It is written;

Is. 58:12 And they that shall be of thee shall build the old waste places: thou shalt raise up the foundations of many generations; and thou shalt be called, The repairer of the breach, The restorer of paths to dwell in.

And again;

Jer. 6:16 Thus saith the LORD, Stand ye in the ways, and see, and ask for the old paths, where is the good way, and walk therein, and ye shall find rest for your souls.

This is the Path Jesus walked and taught.

Matt. 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.

30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

But they said, We will not walk therein.

This is the Word of the Christ of the Bible, the Holy One of Israel who came to earth as a man. Listen to Him, not the "other religious voices" in the land. Take HIS Yoke upon you, not the religious traditions of man. "Live by" Every Word of God as He instructs.

Is. 58:13 If thou turn away thy foot from the sabbath, from doing thy pleasure on my holy day; and call the sabbath a delight, the holy of the LORD, honourable; and shalt honour him, not doing thine own ways, nor finding thine own pleasure, nor speaking thine own words:

14 Then shalt thou delight thyself in the LORD; and I will cause thee to ride upon the high places of the earth, and feed thee with the heritage of Jacob thy father: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it.

Luke 6:46 And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?

47 Whosoever cometh to me, and heareth my sayings, and doeth them, I will shew you to whom he is like:

48 He is like a man which built an house, and digged deep, and laid the foundation on a rock: and when the flood arose, the stream beat vehemently upon that house, and could not shake it: for it was founded upon a rock.

49 But he that heareth, and doeth not, is like a man that without a foundation built an house upon the earth; against which the stream did beat vehemently, and immediately it fell; and the ruin of that house was great.

Don't listen to those who would pervert the Holy Scriptures. God is not a Jew, His Laws and not Jewish Laws, nor are His Sabbaths "Jewish Sabbaths".

You will be ridiculed and insulted by religious men, there will be humiliation and divisions in your life for the Christ's Sake, but the knowledge you gain, and the freedom from deception that comes with true Faith is worth so much more than the loss of worldly religious doctrines and traditions.

Zech. 1:3 Therefore say thou unto them, Thus saith the LORD of hosts; Turn ye unto me, saith the LORD of hosts, and I will turn unto you, saith the LORD of hosts.

4 Be ye not as your fathers, unto whom the former prophets have cried, saying, Thus saith the LORD of hosts; Turn ye now from your evil ways, and from your evil doings: but they did not hear, nor hearken unto me, saith the LORD.

"Today, if you hear His Voice, harden not your hearts".




Title: Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
Post by: winsome on Sat Jan 11, 2020 - 10:38:47

 
Did God Sanctify the Cinema, or the Thursday? I agree that each day was unique. God only rested, Blessed and Sanctified the 7th day, at least according to Him.
God sanctified the 7th day of creation week. Scripture does not say that he blessed and sanctified every 7th day.
Can you show me where scripture says that God sanctified every 7th day?


I'm simply trying to find out where you got this teaching that God's Sanctification and Blessing only lasted one day. I have searched the scriptures and can find nothing to support this doctrine of yours, and you provide nothing but your own words.
Gen.2:2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.

3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

God sanctified the 7th day of creation week. Scripture does not say that he blessed and sanctified every 7th day.
The 7th day of creation week lasted one day.
Is the 7th day of creation week still happening? 
No! It was a past event that God sanctified. 
Scripture says God sanctified it. Not God sanctified them.


Ex. 16:22 And it came to pass, that on the sixth day they gathered twice as much bread, two omers for one man: and all the rulers of the congregation came and told Moses.
23 And he said unto them, This is that which the LORD hath said, To morrow is the rest of the holy sabbath unto the LORD: bake that which ye will bake to day, and seethe that ye will seethe; and that which remaineth over lay up for you to be kept until the morning.

Where do you get the religious doctrine that God's Holy Sabbath wasn't Holy until Israel forgot the God of Joseph?

You keep inserting straw men arguments.
I never said that Israel forgot the God of Jacob.
They did not forget to keep a holy sabbath because there was no holy sabbath to remember. 

Where before Ex 16:23 did God tell anyone to keep a 7th day sabbath?
Why was the Sabbath Rest Holy? Isn't it because God Blessed it, and Sanctified it?
It became a holy sabbath when God made it a holy sabbath for Israel.

Do you have any other example of a Sanctification of God that lasted only one day? Or in your religion, is this the only time God's Sanctification only lasted one day?
John 10:36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?

Was this another example of God's Sanctification only lasting one day?

If we can become holy we can become unholy.
You may be right, I just need more than your own words. Something from God's Word, just one scripture that I can see where God's Blessings and Sanctifications only lasted one day. Just one.
I just need one scripture that says that God commanded anyone to keep a 7th Day sabbath before he gave it to Israel in Ex 16:23. Just one.
Give me one example of anyone keeping a 7th day sabbath before Ex 16:23

#194;
One pathetic comment. Is that it?

I didn't falsely accuse you of anything. You are preaching that when God Blessed and Sanctified His Holy 7th Day, it only lasted one day. I'm trying to find where in scriptures you find this doctrine.
One day is one day.
One day only lasts one day by definition.
Title: Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
Post by: Michael2012 on Sat Jan 11, 2020 - 11:00:49
GB, can you kindly point to all the scriptures where the commandments, statutes, ordinances, judgments of God can be found, that you consider the law of God (besides the Sabbath day) that He gave for all men to keep, so the board can consider and examine them?

I'm sure you would claim to know them and keep them. 
Title: Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
Post by: Michael2012 on Sat Jan 11, 2020 - 11:24:25
Quote from: GB
Did the Jews have an advantage? Yes, much in every way, because God did give HIS Laws to them.

If your statement is true, can you tell us how that is an advantage and much in every way?
Title: Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
Post by: Michael2012 on Sat Jan 11, 2020 - 11:31:40
16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:

17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

Religious traditions of men are shadows of nothing.

Regarding that passage in Colossians 2, clearly those mentioned in verse 16 which has to do with eating, drinking, of holy days, new moons and even sabbath days are said in verse 17 to be a shadow of things to come, the body of which is of Christ. If a shadow is of the body of Christ, I am sure there is no debate that it cannot be spoken of as something bad or evil.
Title: Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
Post by: Michael2012 on Sat Jan 11, 2020 - 11:37:42
Quote from: GB
Rom. 2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:

29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

With regards that scriptures you quoted in one of your post, let me ask you this question:

To whom did God made a covenant with during the time of Moses? Was it with the outward Jews or the inward Jews?
Title: Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
Post by: Michael2012 on Sat Jan 11, 2020 - 11:42:47
Quote from: GB
I am striving to enter the narrow gate.

If you are striving to enter the narrow gate, that means you know where the narrow gate is. Tell us where is the narrow gate that you strive to enter?
Title: Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
Post by: Michael2012 on Sat Jan 11, 2020 - 11:58:14
Quote from: GB
Rom. 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

You quoted the scriptures above in one of your post. I have some questions for you.

Are you under the law or not?

If you are under the law, would you say you will be judged by the law?

If you are under the law, would you say you are bound by the law?

If you are under the law, if you keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, would you say you are guilty of all?

If you are not under the law, would you say you are free from the law and are not bound by it?

If you are not under the law, how is it that you are not under it?
Title: Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
Post by: Michael2012 on Sat Jan 11, 2020 - 12:03:21
Quote from: GB
I have sin in me no doubt. I am a sinner. And Jesus created His Laws and Sabbaths for me. He created his Sabbath "FOR ME".

You said this in one of your post.

James said "whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all."

Do you believe that? I know you'd say you do.

If you believe that, and you admit you are a sinner and have sin no doubt, then if you lie, aren't you then also guilty of all, including the 4th of the 10 commandments?
Title: Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
Post by: GB on Sat Jan 11, 2020 - 13:42:06
 author=winsome link=topic=74624.msg1055154448#msg1055154448 date=1578760727]
Quote
God sanctified the 7th day of creation week. Scripture does not say that he blessed and sanctified every 7th day.
Can you show me where scripture says that God sanctified every 7th day?

There is only one 7th day of the week and God Blessed and sanctified it.  It doesn't imply, suggest or otherwise say that this blessing or Sanctification only lasted for one day. You are making that part up.

Ex. 16:23 And he said unto them, This is that which the LORD hath said, To morrow is the rest of the holy sabbath unto the LORD:

Still Blessed and Still Sanctified.

Ex. 20:8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:

10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:

11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

Still Blessed and Still Sanctified. This is saying the Lord, that means the Christ, Blessed and Hallowed the "SABBATH DAY" in creation. There is only One God, and He Blessed and Sanctified HIS "Sabbath" Day, defined as the 7th day of the week. Your preaching that there is only one "Sabbath" that was Blessed is foolishness.

There is no mention, suggestion, implication or teaching here that God created only one "Sabbath" day. There is a "SABBATH" day in every week. Six days of every week are work days, the 7th is the Sabbath of the Lord from Creation, as it is written.

Heb. 4:9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God. 10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his. 11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.

Still Blessed, still Sanctified. And religious men are still preaching against it.


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God sanctified the 7th day of creation week. Scripture does not say that he blessed and sanctified every 7th day.

Scriptures teach He Blessed His Holy Sabbath, defined as the 7th day of the week. There is a "SABBATH" every week, as it is written.

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The 7th day of creation week lasted one day.

There is a 7th day every week as God created. The 7th Day is Blessed and Sanctified. I'm pretty sure God knew there would be more than one 7th day.

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Is the 7th day of creation week still happening? 

There is a 7th Day in every week, and it was designed by God to be that way. Your preaching that He only Hallowed the very first Sabbath is a doctrine of men, not God.  HE said He Sanctified and Blessed the 7th day. I have no reason to believe HE lied to me. Moses said He Blessed the "Sabbath" Day in creation. I have no reason to doubt the Spirit of Christ which was on him.

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No! It was a past event that God sanctified. 
Scripture says God sanctified it. Not God sanctified them.

There is only one 7th day per week. Why would God Sanctify "them" if there is only one day a week that He Blessed? Each week, at creation, starts with the first day, and ends with the 7th. God said He Blessed the 7th day. He didn't say He Blessed only the first 7th day, or the last 7th day. HE said He blessed the 7th day. There is only one 7th day of the week.


Quote
You keep inserting straw men arguments.
I never said that Israel forgot the God of Jacob.
They did not forget to keep a holy sabbath because there was no holy sabbath to remember.
 

That is your religion, but that is not what God told Moses to tell the Children of Abraham.

Ex. 20:11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

This is exactly the same thing this same Lord said in Genesis.

Gen. 2:3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

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Where before Ex 16:23 did God tell anyone to keep a 7th day sabbath? It became a holy sabbath when God made it a holy sabbath for Israel.

It was the Sabbath Rest of the Lord at creation, at least according to God's Word.

Gen. 26:5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

Did God spell out HIS Laws for us that Abraham followed before Exodus? No, but Abraham did have God's Laws and Commandments. At least according to the God of the Bible.

Gen. 7:1 And the LORD said unto Noah, Come thou and all thy house into the ark; for thee have I seen righteous before me in this generation.

2 Of every clean beast thou shalt take to thee by sevens, the male and his female: and of beasts that are not clean by two, the male and his female.

5 And Noah did according unto all that the LORD commanded him.

Did God spell out His creation of clean, and unclean animals before Leviticus? No, but Noah knew them.

Show me one scripture where God told us before Leviticus His definition of Clean animals, and unclean animals. Just one. You can't because it doesn't exist. Yet Gods Creation of clean and unclean did exist. He just didn't define it until Leviticus.

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If we can become holy we can become unholy.I just need one scripture that says that God commanded anyone to keep a 7th Day sabbath before he gave it to Israel in Ex 16:23. Just one.

So when  did the Holy, Blessed and Sanctified 7th day become unsanctified, unblessed, and unholy? Show me just one scripture.

Gen. 12:17 And the LORD plagued Pharaoh and his house with great plagues because of Sarai Abram's wife.

18 And Pharaoh called Abram, and said, What is this that thou hast done unto me? why didst thou not tell me that she was thy wife?

19 Why saidst thou, She is my sister? so I might have taken her to me to wife: now therefore behold thy wife, take her, and go thy way.

Show me just one scripture where God showed Pharaoh His Law regarding Adultery? Just one. Show me one scriptures where God showed Noah His creation of clean and unclean animals. Just one.

Gen. 20:4 But Abimelech had not come near her: and he said, Lord, wilt thou slay also a righteous nation?

5 Said he not unto me, She is my sister? and she, even she herself said, He is my brother: in the integrity of my heart and innocency of my hands have I done this.

6 And God said unto him in a dream, Yea, I know that thou didst this in the integrity of thy heart; for I also withheld thee from sinning against me: therefore suffered I thee not to touch her.

Show me just one scriptures where God showed Abimelech the sin of adultery and the wages for that sin?

Gen. 22:8 And Abraham said, My son, God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering: so they went both of them together.

Show me just one scripture where God told Abraham about the "Lamb of God".

And yet these Laws of God, Adultery, the difference between clean, and unclean animals, even Passover, was known to these men.

Mainstream Preachers are always boasting about "you keep one, you must keep them all". Where is your scriptural evidence that God's Laws included adultery, but not killing, not stealing, not lying, not loving your neighbor as thyself. You have none, nothing. Just religious traditions of man.

So for me, when the God of the Bible says " Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws," I already know what those Laws are because God defined these laws for me in Exodus and Leviticus.

And when God tells Noah to load clean and unclean animals, I know what they are because God defined this part of His Law in Leviticus.

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Give me one example of anyone keeping a 7th day sabbath before Ex 16:23

Just because God waited until Exodus and Leviticus to spell out His Laws, His Commandments, and His Statutes,  to us, doesn't mean they weren't there. If a man believes in the God of the Bible, they were there.

Ex. 16:27 And it came to pass, that there went out some of the people on the seventh day for to gather, and they found none.

28 And the LORD said unto Moses, How long refuse ye to keep my commandments and my laws?

How can this be? Can you show me one Scripture where God details what HIS Laws and Commandments are before Ex. 16? And yet God says they broke them all.

Except the Levitical Priesthood which, according to Paul, was "ADDED" till the Seed should Come.

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One pathetic comment. Is that it?

I don't think the Christ's New Covenant is pathetic. I think religious men who preach a different new covenant that what He gave us is pathetic. I didn't want to use my own words, rather, I sent you to the Christ's Words for HIS Definition of HIS New Covenant. It seems you aren't interested.
 
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One day is one day.
One day only lasts one day by definition.

He didn't say "ONE" day. That is you adding scriptures to support your religious traditions. He said He Blessed and Sanctified the 7th day. There is a 7th day in every week.

Heb. 4:9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.

10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.

11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.

There is nothing more to discuss really. You are not going to discuss the questions I posed, or the scriptures I reference. You are here to promote your religion which preaches God's Sanctification and Blessings only lasted one day in creation.

I am going by "Every Word of God" here, as Jesus instructed, and the evidence points to God creating His Sabbath in creation, and blessing and Sanctifying it. The teaching that the blessing and sanctification expired on the morning of next 1st day can not be supported by even one Scripture.

I don't believe God blessed and Sanctified the 7th day, just to erase the blessing and Sanctification the very next day. And you have nothing but your own words in your attempt to convince folks otherwise.


Title: Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
Post by: GB on Sat Jan 11, 2020 - 14:14:44
GB, can you kindly point to all the scriptures where the commandments, statutes, ordinances, judgments of God can be found, that you consider the law of God (besides the Sabbath day) that He gave for all men to keep, so the board can consider and examine them?

I'm sure you would claim to know them and keep them.

 If you don't know what God's Laws are, you shouldn't be preaching as if you do.
Title: Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
Post by: GB on Sat Jan 11, 2020 - 14:29:32
If your statement is true, can you tell us how that is an advantage and much in every way?

Because there is a God and He has Oracles.

3 For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?

4 God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.

In other words, God's Oracles are true, and religious men who preach against them, add to them or take away from them are liars. Today, because of the Christ's New Covenant, we all have the "Oracles of God" as He promised.

In these oracles there are commandments that "many" just don't believe in. Like the Command to Keep the Sabbath of the Lord Holy, and don't work on it. (Servile)

Heb. 4:4 For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works.

5 And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest.

6 Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief:

These are those who despised and Polluted His Holy Sabbath Day.

9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.

10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.

11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.

It is a big advantage for us to have in all our homes, the oracles of God. We don't have to depend on religious men for our "instruction in righteousness", for doctrines, or correction. We have every thing we need to be "wise unto Salvation".

This is a huge advantage over those who must rely on religious men for their knowledge.


Title: Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
Post by: GB on Sat Jan 11, 2020 - 14:39:29
Regarding that passage in Colossians 2, clearly those mentioned in verse 16 which has to do with eating, drinking, of holy days, new moons and even sabbath days are said in verse 17 to be a shadow of things to come, the body of which is of Christ. If a shadow is of the body of Christ, I am sure there is no debate that it cannot be spoken of as something bad or evil.

True, but religious men and religious traditions of men have been bad and evil through out the Bible. They think they are holy and just, but they are not. This is the very purpose of Col. 2. Paul is warning about being spoiled (made rotten) by the philosophy of men pushing traditions of men and rudiments of the world, and not of the Christ.

For instance, the Sabbaths and Commandments of the Bible are of the Christ. The Sunday Sabbath in the religions of the land, is a tradition of men. Paul is telling the true believers to know the difference, and not to let anyone convince them, or judge them for their voluntary humility towards the Holy Christ's Word's over the traditions of men, which will "parish with the using".




Title: Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
Post by: GB on Sat Jan 11, 2020 - 14:53:12
With regards that scriptures you quoted in one of your post, let me ask you this question:

To whom did God made a covenant with during the time of Moses? Was it with the outward Jews or the inward Jews?

He made the Covenant with the home born, which also included the stranger that chose to sojourn with them.

This Covenant was to promote folks to "circumcised the foreskins of their heart". This Covenant that the Christ made with them, a covenant Abraham didn't have, consisted of Priestly Services designed to do two things, which was to lead them to their Christ.

#1. Administer God's Laws.

#2. Provide sacrificial "works" through a specific Levitical Priesthood for the atonement of sins. This "Covenant" was to be in force until "After those says", or as Paul describes "till the Seed should Come".

After that, Christ Himself will write His Laws on our hearts, no more Levite Priests to take "Moses Seat".

And He also promised "After those days" that He, Himself, will atone for our sins. No more Levite Priests to perform "works of the Law" for the atonement of sins.

All of this designed to create a new Man, and a Jew (God's Chosen People) from within.



Title: Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
Post by: GB on Sat Jan 11, 2020 - 15:01:28
If you are striving to enter the narrow gate, that means you know where the narrow gate is. Tell us where is the narrow gate that you strive to enter?

I'll let the Christ answer this for you.

Duet. 30:9 And the LORD thy God will make thee plenteous in every work of thine hand, in the fruit of thy body, and in the fruit of thy cattle, and in the fruit of thy land, for good: for the LORD will again rejoice over thee for good, as he rejoiced over thy fathers:

10 If thou shalt hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to keep his commandments and his statutes which are written in this book of the law, and if thou turn unto the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul.

11 For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not hidden from thee, neither is it far off.

12 It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?

13 Neither is it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?

14 But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it.

15 See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil;

16 In that I command thee this day to love the LORD thy God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commandments and his statutes and his judgments, that thou mayest live and multiply: and the LORD thy God shall bless thee in the land whither thou goest to possess it.

As you can surely see, not many folks will "Strive to enter" this Path. But Jesus walked it. He is the actual Author of this Path, and we are told to "Walk even as He Walked".

We have everything we need, including volumes of examples of folks, both who "strived to enter" and those who created their own Path.

Heb. 12:1 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,

2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

3 For consider him that endured such contradiction of sinners against himself, lest ye be wearied and faint in your minds.

4 Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.




Title: Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
Post by: GB on Sat Jan 11, 2020 - 15:25:05
 author=Michael2012 link=topic=74624.msg1055154468#msg1055154468 date=1578765494]
Quote
You quoted the scriptures above in one of your post. I have some questions for you.

Are you under the law or not?

According to the context in which Paul used it, I hope I am Spiritually alive, not dead according to the Letter. (The wages of sin is death) If I am Spiritually dead, then I am under the Law.

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If you are under the law, would you say you will be judged by the law?

If I am still dead, I have already been judged by the Law. But if I am alive because of God's Grace, I can become a new man, and "Strive to enter" another path. One that respects God and Honors God with my body.

1 Cor. 6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? 20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.


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If you are under the law, would you say you are bound by the law?

If I am dead, which is what it means to be "Under the Law", then I am free from sin. The dead can not praise God. But if I am alive by God's Grace, then I am not my own. I am purchased with HIS Blood. My old self crucified with Him. Now I am a "servant" of the Christ of the Bible, running the race that is set before me, striving against sin, and striving to enter the Narrow Path. I am bound to the one whom I serve, as it is written.

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Quote
If you are under the law, if you keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, would you say you are guilty of all?

I am hopeful for the promises of the Christ in His Word.

1 John 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.

4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.

6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.


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If you are not under the law, would you say you are free from the law and are not bound by it?


If I was dead because I rejected His Laws, and by His Grace, He paid the penalty for my transgressions, why would I transgress God's Laws again and place Jesus to an open shame? I am not free from His instruction, I am freed from the death transgression of His Laws caused me.

Rom. 6:12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.

13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.

14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid. (That means NO! Michael)

16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?


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If you are not under the law, how is it that you are not under it?

If I am not dead, it is because Jesus shed His Blood for me. But He didn't shed His Blood so I could reject His Laws again. At least according to the Christ of the Bible.


Title: Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
Post by: GB on Sat Jan 11, 2020 - 15:32:24
You said this in one of your post.

James said "whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all."

Do you believe that? I know you'd say you do.

If you believe that, and you admit you are a sinner and have sin no doubt, then if you lie, aren't you then also guilty of all, including the 4th of the 10 commandments?

You are not my judge. You talk in circles in my opinion. You bounce all over the place most the time, in my opinion. You make the claim that I don't answer your questions "Properly" as an excuse to keep moving the bar, going to the next and the next and the next.

I'm sure you are leading to something here, I'm sure I'll find out soon enough. You say the Christ of the Bible isn't the "Restorer of Paths to walk in", yet you won't even show the basic curtsey of telling me, who in your religion is?

You just move to the next, to the next to the next. I don't know why I keep falling for your games here.


Title: Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
Post by: Amo on Sat Jan 11, 2020 - 15:35:03
I say you are wrongly dividing the word of God again. God who is spirit, spoke the ten commandments with His own mouth, and wrote them with His own hand twice. Are you suggesting that God's law is not of the spirit but only of the letter? I say this is because you wrongly divide the scriptures and the writings of Paul as well, and then apply a meaning to said scriptures that make the word of God and even Paul contradict itself. This is why I believe you wrongly divide the word of God. Your application causes to many contradictions in the word of God itself. God is spirit, nothing proceeding from Him or His mouth is simply by the letter or carnal in any way shape or form. His law does condemn to death as it is meant to do, to convict the heart and drive the sinner to the foot of the cross for forgiveness and salvation. It is also the standard of righteousness which our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ lived out in our flesh. Which He stated that He did not come to change but fulfill, that such might be fulfilled within our lives as well. All of this is scriptural and without contradiction.

Proclaiming that the law is abolished because it is not of the spirit or carnal, is not scriptural, but contradicts scripture. This is why I reject your gospel as false, and an example of wrongly dividing the word of God.

Psa 19:7 The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple. 8 The statutes of the LORD are right, rejoicing the heart: the commandment of the LORD is pure, enlightening the eyes.

Rom 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet. 8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead. 9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. 10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death. 11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me. 12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good. 13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful. 14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: 4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. 8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

The law is perfect, good, holy and spiritual. It helps convert the soul. This is the testimony of the scriptures and Paul. It is the carnal mind that is not subject to the law, not the spiritual mind. The law which proceeded out of the mouth of God who is spirit, has never needed to change and will not change. The sinner who is carnal has always needed to change and must change. This is the testimony of scripture. Gospels which contradict this testimony calling the law non spiritual or simply of the letter and needing to be changed, are false gospels which do not rightly divide the word of God but rather make it contradict itself.


If you believe you are the one rightly dividing the word of God, you are mistaken and is deceived.

You see, what Paul says in 2 Cor. 3 concerning the two ministrations is very clear. He speaks in verse 7 of a ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, a ministration of the spirit in verse 8, a ministration of condemnation and a ministration of righteousness in verse 9. And I guess you don't want to tell us what Paul refers to by those.

You say "Proclaiming that the law is abolished because it is not of the spirit or carnal, is not scriptural, but contradicts scripture.". That's right. That is why I did not say such. So if you reject that, that's good. I too reject that. I wonder who said that to you.

There is no issue and debate on whether the laws of God, His statutes and commandments are holy, and just, and good, and that the law is spiritual. For indeed they are. And yes, the Law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul. There is no issue and debate on that.

But then, that does not take away nor change what scriptures had testified of as to the purpose of God in giving it to them. It does not change the truth that the law was made for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, for whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine. It does not change the truth that God made a covenant with Israel, whose mediator was Moses, and wherein the written Law was given to them, to being their obligation to keep and to live by them. Paul later told us why such a written Law, the law, was given in covenant to them. That is, it was given and added because of their transgressions (sin). And this is understood well in that, as Paul had said of the law, that by the law is the knowledge of sin. Paul expressed this more clearly when he said "I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, “You shall not covet.” Remember also, sin is not imputed when there is no law. With the giving of the written law then, there is then a written code which serves, among others, to be what may well be considered as a legal instrument whereby offense is defined, and judged, such as that it imputes sin or offense upon the guilty. So we can see by that, that the law brings about wrath, condemnation, and death. This is what can be understood in what Paul is telling us about the law, that he refers to it as "the letter", "written and engraven in stone", "the ministration of condemnation", "the ministration of death".   

But the good news is, there is now a better and more glorious covenant, the "new covenant", whose mediator is Jesus Christ. In contrast to the former covenant, the "old covenant", where what was given is the law, in this covenant, what is given is the Holy Spirit. In this new covenant, is the ministration of righteousness and the ministration of the spirit, and the ministration of life, as the Spirit gives life.

A perfect example of the false gospel according to those who twist the words of Paul unto the same. In this false gospel, God's law brings about death, not sin. Sin is and would be just fine, if it weren't for God's law. Which is of course the whole point of God's law. Sin is not just fine, it produces death, thus the law of God, to make sin exceedingly sinful. The spiritual, just, holy, good, and pure law of God is not the cause of death. It is the standard which points out the real cause of death, which is sin.

Rom 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet. 8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead. 9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. 10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death. 11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me. 12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good. 13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful. 14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

The true gospel identifies sin as the killer, the false gospel identifies God's law as the killer. The true gospel calls for the abandonment of sin, the false gospel calls for the abandonment of God's law which even Paul says was ordained to life. It convicts of sin and leads the sinner to Jesus Christ who alone can save their lives, it is thereby ordained to life. Sin is the harbinger of death, not the law. The law was given to more emphatically point this truth out. To convict the sinner of guilt, lead them to their only savior from this guilt, and lift up the standard which all the saved should seek to uphold. The false gospel seeks instead to remove the standard which convicts of sin, points to Christ alone for salvation from sin, and maintains said standard as apart form sin. Which standard was perfectly fulfilled in the life and death of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

Deu 4:1  Now therefore hearken, O Israel, unto the statutes and unto the judgments, which I teach you, for to do them, that ye may live, and go in and possess the land which the LORD God of your fathers giveth you. 2 Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you. 3 Your eyes have seen what the LORD did because of Baalpeor: for all the men that followed Baalpeor, the LORD thy God hath destroyed them from among you. 4 But ye that did cleave unto the LORD your God are alive every one of you this day. 5 Behold, I have taught you statutes and judgments, even as the LORD my God commanded me, that ye should do so in the land whither ye go to possess it. 6 Keep therefore and do them; for this is your wisdom and your understanding in the sight of the nations, which shall hear all these statutes, and say, Surely this great nation is a wise and understanding people. 7 For what nation is there so great, who hath God so nigh unto them, as the LORD our God is in all things that we call upon him for? 8 And what nation is there so great, that hath statutes and judgments so righteous as all this law, which I set before you this day? 9 Only take heed to thyself, and keep thy soul diligently, lest thou forget the things which thine eyes have seen, and lest they depart from thy heart all the days of thy life: but teach them thy sons, and thy sons' sons; 10 Specially the day that thou stoodest before the LORD thy God in Horeb, when the LORD said unto me, Gather me the people together, and I will make them hear my words, that they may learn to fear me all the days that they shall live upon the earth, and that they may teach their children. 11 And ye came near and stood under the mountain; and the mountain burned with fire unto the midst of heaven, with darkness, clouds, and thick darkness. 12 And the LORD spake unto you out of the midst of the fire: ye heard the voice of the words, but saw no similitude; only ye heard a voice. 13 And he declared unto you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform, even ten commandments; and he wrote them upon two tables of stone. 14 And the LORD commanded me at that time to teach you statutes and judgments, that ye might do them in the land whither ye go over to possess it.

Moses told Israel that God's commandments were unto life, to be a witness to the surrounding nations of God's righteousness, justice, and mercy. According to todays false gospel though, Paul corrected this apparent error on the part of Moses, and rightly called God's covenant and law the covenant or laws of death. One obscure statement from Paul nullifies all other biblical testimony to the contrary. So be it.

Deu 5:28 And the LORD heard the voice of your words, when ye spake unto me; and the LORD said unto me, I have heard the voice of the words of this people, which they have spoken unto thee: they have well said all that they have spoken. 29 O that there were such an heart in them, that they would fear me, and keep all my commandments always, that it might be well with them, and with their children for ever! 30 Go say to them, Get you into your tents again. 31 But as for thee, stand thou here by me, and I will speak unto thee all the commandments, and the statutes, and the judgments, which thou shalt teach them, that they may do them in the land which I give them to possess it. 32 Ye shall observe to do therefore as the LORD your God hath commanded you: ye shall not turn aside to the right hand or to the left. 33 Ye shall walk in all the ways which the LORD your God hath commanded you, that ye may live, and that it may be well with you, and that ye may prolong your days in the land which ye shall possess.

It just doesn't sound like a covenant of death to me.

Deu 30:1 And it shall come to pass, when all these things are come upon thee, the blessing and the curse, which I have set before thee, and thou shalt call them to mind among all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath driven thee, 2 And shalt return unto the LORD thy God, and shalt obey his voice according to all that I command thee this day, thou and thy children, with all thine heart, and with all thy soul; 3 That then the LORD thy God will turn thy captivity, and have compassion upon thee, and will return and gather thee from all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath scattered thee. 4 If any of thine be driven out unto the outmost parts of heaven, from thence will the LORD thy God gather thee, and from thence will he fetch thee: 5 And the LORD thy God will bring thee into the land which thy fathers possessed, and thou shalt possess it; and he will do thee good, and multiply thee above thy fathers. 6 And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live. 7 And the LORD thy God will put all these curses upon thine enemies, and on them that hate thee, which persecuted thee. 8 And thou shalt return and obey the voice of the LORD, and do all his commandments which I command thee this day. 9 And the LORD thy God will make thee plenteous in every work of thine hand, in the fruit of thy body, and in the fruit of thy cattle, and in the fruit of thy land, for good: for the LORD will again rejoice over thee for good, as he rejoiced over thy fathers: 10 If thou shalt hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to keep his commandments and his statutes which are written in this book of the law, and if thou turn unto the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul. 11 For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not hidden from thee, neither is it far off. 12 It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it? 13 Neither is it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it? 14 But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it. 15 See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil; 16 In that I command thee this day to love the LORD thy God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commandments and his statutes and his judgments, that thou mayest live and multiply: and the LORD thy God shall bless thee in the land whither thou goest to possess it. 17 But if thine heart turn away, so that thou wilt not hear, but shalt be drawn away, and worship other gods, and serve them; 18 I denounce unto you this day, that ye shall surely perish, and that ye shall not prolong your days upon the land, whither thou passest over Jordan to go to possess it. 19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live: 20 That thou mayest love the LORD thy God, and that thou mayest obey his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto him: for he is thy life, and the length of thy days: that thou mayest dwell in the land which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.

So strange, all this talk by God about obeying His laws and statutes and the better and abundant life that He will give to those who do such. How have "Christians" of today turned such into a covenant of death? Why is that which even Paul said was ordained unto life, turned into a covenant of death by so many "Christians" today? Are they not wrongly dividing the word of God?

Eze 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die. 5 But if a man be just, and do that which is lawful and right, 6 And hath not eaten upon the mountains, neither hath lifted up his eyes to the idols of the house of Israel, neither hath defiled his neighbour's wife, neither hath come near to a menstruous woman, 7 And hath not oppressed any, but hath restored to the debtor his pledge, hath spoiled none by violence, hath given his bread to the hungry, and hath covered the naked with a garment; 8 He that hath not given forth upon usury, neither hath taken any increase, that hath withdrawn his hand from iniquity, hath executed true judgment between man and man, 9 Hath walked in my statutes, and hath kept my judgments, to deal truly; he is just, he shall surely live, saith the Lord GOD.

Why does God's word keep promising life to those who would obey His laws which "Christians" today call the covenant or ministry of death?

Eze 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him. 21 But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die. 22 All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live. 23 Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord GOD: and not that he should return from his ways, and live? 24 But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die. 25 Yet ye say, The way of the Lord is not equal. Hear now, O house of Israel; Is not my way equal? are not your ways unequal? 26 When a righteous man turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die. 27 Again, when the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive. 28 Because he considereth, and turneth away from all his transgressions that he hath committed, he shall surely live, he shall not die. 29 Yet saith the house of Israel, The way of the Lord is not equal. O house of Israel, are not my ways equal? are not your ways unequal? 30 Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, saith the Lord GOD. Repent, and turn yourselves from all your transgressions; so iniquity shall not be your ruin. 31 Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel? 32 For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye.

Sin causes death, not God's law. God's law was and is ordained unto life. Its purpose is to lead the sinner to Christ and uplift the standard which all in Christ should seek to uphold within their lives, as their Lord and Savior Jesus Christ did on their behalf as one of us. That which many "Christians" of today proclaim to be the covenant or ministry of death according to their misapplication of the words of Paul, scripture testifies to be unto life many times over. They preach a gospel of abolishing the law which was ordained unto life, instead of abolishing sin which produces death.

Jas 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. 15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

Sin brings forth death, not God's law. The law was added that sin might become exceeding sinful, to the effect that God's own would turn away from such unto the Holy and Blameless Lamb of God who died for their sins, Jesus Christ. Our sins caused His death, not the law of God. Turn from the former, and embrace the latter as the new standard of your life as lived out and exemplified in the life and death of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. Praise His Holy name.









Title: Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
Post by: winsome on Sat Jan 11, 2020 - 15:38:47
author=winsome link=topic=74624.msg1055154448#msg1055154448 date=1578760727]
There is only one 7th day of the week and God Blessed and sanctified it.  It doesn't imply, suggest or otherwise say that this blessing or Sanctification only lasted for one day. You are making that part up.

Ex. 16:23 And he said unto them, This is that which the LORD hath said, To morrow is the rest of the holy sabbath unto the LORD:

Still Blessed and Still Sanctified.

Ex. 20:8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:

10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:

11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

Still Blessed and Still Sanctified. This is saying the Lord, that means the Christ, Blessed and Hallowed the "SABBATH DAY" in creation. There is only One God, and He Blessed and Sanctified HIS "Sabbath" Day, defined as the 7th day of the week. Your preaching that there is only one "Sabbath" that was Blessed is foolishness.

There is no mention, suggestion, implication or teaching here that God created only one "Sabbath" day. There is a "SABBATH" day in every week. Six days of every week are work days, the 7th is the Sabbath of the Lord from Creation, as it is written.

Heb. 4:9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God. 10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his. 11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.

Still Blessed, still Sanctified. And religious men are still preaching against it.


Scriptures teach He Blessed His Holy Sabbath, defined as the 7th day of the week. There is a "SABBATH" every week, as it is written.

There is a 7th day every week as God created. The 7th Day is Blessed and Sanctified. I'm pretty sure God knew there would be more than one 7th day.

There is a 7th Day in every week, and it was designed by God to be that way. Your preaching that He only Hallowed the very first Sabbath is a doctrine of men, not God.  HE said He Sanctified and Blessed the 7th day. I have no reason to believe HE lied to me. Moses said He Blessed the "Sabbath" Day in creation. I have no reason to doubt the Spirit of Christ which was on him.

There is only one 7th day per week. Why would God Sanctify "them" if there is only one day a week that He Blessed? Each week, at creation, starts with the first day, and ends with the 7th. God said He Blessed the 7th day. He didn't say He Blessed only the first 7th day, or the last 7th day. HE said He blessed the 7th day. There is only one 7th day of the week.

 

That is your religion, but that is not what God told Moses to tell the Children of Abraham.

Ex. 20:11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

This is exactly the same thing this same Lord said in Genesis.

Gen. 2:3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

It was the Sabbath Rest of the Lord at creation, at least according to God's Word.

Gen. 26:5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

Did God spell out HIS Laws for us that Abraham followed before Exodus? No, but Abraham did have God's Laws and Commandments. At least according to the God of the Bible.

Gen. 7:1 And the LORD said unto Noah, Come thou and all thy house into the ark; for thee have I seen righteous before me in this generation.

2 Of every clean beast thou shalt take to thee by sevens, the male and his female: and of beasts that are not clean by two, the male and his female.

5 And Noah did according unto all that the LORD commanded him.

Did God spell out His creation of clean, and unclean animals before Leviticus? No, but Noah knew them.

Show me one scripture where God told us before Leviticus His definition of Clean animals, and unclean animals. Just one. You can't because it doesn't exist. Yet Gods Creation of clean and unclean did exist. He just didn't define it until Leviticus.

So when  did the Holy, Blessed and Sanctified 7th day become unsanctified, unblessed, and unholy? Show me just one scripture.

Gen. 12:17 And the LORD plagued Pharaoh and his house with great plagues because of Sarai Abram's wife.

18 And Pharaoh called Abram, and said, What is this that thou hast done unto me? why didst thou not tell me that she was thy wife?

19 Why saidst thou, She is my sister? so I might have taken her to me to wife: now therefore behold thy wife, take her, and go thy way.

Show me just one scripture where God showed Pharaoh His Law regarding Adultery? Just one. Show me one scriptures where God showed Noah His creation of clean and unclean animals. Just one.

Gen. 20:4 But Abimelech had not come near her: and he said, Lord, wilt thou slay also a righteous nation?

5 Said he not unto me, She is my sister? and she, even she herself said, He is my brother: in the integrity of my heart and innocency of my hands have I done this.

6 And God said unto him in a dream, Yea, I know that thou didst this in the integrity of thy heart; for I also withheld thee from sinning against me: therefore suffered I thee not to touch her.

Show me just one scriptures where God showed Abimelech the sin of adultery and the wages for that sin?

Gen. 22:8 And Abraham said, My son, God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering: so they went both of them together.

Show me just one scripture where God told Abraham about the "Lamb of God".

And yet these Laws of God, Adultery, the difference between clean, and unclean animals, even Passover, was known to these men.

Mainstream Preachers are always boasting about "you keep one, you must keep them all". Where is your scriptural evidence that God's Laws included adultery, but not killing, not stealing, not lying, not loving your neighbor as thyself. You have none, nothing. Just religious traditions of man.

So for me, when the God of the Bible says " Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws," I already know what those Laws are because God defined these laws for me in Exodus and Leviticus.

And when God tells Noah to load clean and unclean animals, I know what they are because God defined this part of His Law in Leviticus.

Just because God waited until Exodus and Leviticus to spell out His Laws, His Commandments, and His Statutes,  to us, doesn't mean they weren't there. If a man believes in the God of the Bible, they were there.

Ex. 16:27 And it came to pass, that there went out some of the people on the seventh day for to gather, and they found none.

28 And the LORD said unto Moses, How long refuse ye to keep my commandments and my laws?

How can this be? Can you show me one Scripture where God details what HIS Laws and Commandments are before Ex. 16? And yet God says they broke them all.

Except the Levitical Priesthood which, according to Paul, was "ADDED" till the Seed should Come.

I don't think the Christ's New Covenant is pathetic. I think religious men who preach a different new covenant that what He gave us is pathetic. I didn't want to use my own words, rather, I sent you to the Christ's Words for HIS Definition of HIS New Covenant. It seems you aren't interested.
 
He didn't say "ONE" day. That is you adding scriptures to support your religious traditions. He said He Blessed and Sanctified the 7th day. There is a 7th day in every week.

Heb. 4:9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.

10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.

11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.

There is nothing more to discuss really. You are not going to discuss the questions I posed, or the scriptures I reference. You are here to promote your religion which preaches God's Sanctification and Blessings only lasted one day in creation.

I am going by "Every Word of God" here, as Jesus instructed, and the evidence points to God creating His Sabbath in creation, and blessing and Sanctifying it. The teaching that the blessing and sanctification expired on the morning of next 1st day can not be supported by even one Scripture.

I don't believe God blessed and Sanctified the 7th day, just to erase the blessing and Sanctification the very next day. And you have nothing but your own words in your attempt to convince folks otherwise.
A summary
Gen 1 and the beginning of 2 describes God's creation of the world in 7 days.This is was unique event.
 
Each of the first 6 days God creates something new that scripture does not record God creating on any other day or since that day. Each day was unique in time.
 
On the 7th day scripture records God rested from the work he had been doing on the first 6 days.
Scripture does not record God resting on any other day. It too was unique in time.
 
But GB believes it was a repeatable event but  cannot provide a single line of scripture that says God rested on any other day.
 
Nowhere in scripture does God command a human to rest every 7th day before he gave that command to the Israelites in the desert (Ex 16:23 onwards).
But GB believes God did, but  cannot provide a single line of scripture that says God gave that command before Ex 16:23.
 
 
Nowhere in scripture does it record a human resting on the 7th day before the Israelites in the desert (Ex 16:23 onwards).
But GB believes some humans did, but  cannot provide a single line of scripture that says any human rested on the 7th day before the Israelites in the desert (Ex 16:23 onwards).
 
 
Title: Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
Post by: Jaime on Sat Jan 11, 2020 - 15:45:08
When God gives his appointed times, he includes the Sabbath along with Passover, and all the other feasts. There is no idea there that God was counting only a single of those as an appointed time rather than repeated weekly or annually.

Winsome, I have to say this is the most bizarre argument against Sabbath observance I have ever heard. Maybe I  have existed in the dark on this subject.

Another thing that indicates it was more than a one occatioml thing is the whole way God directed the gathering of the manna in the wilderness on each and every weekly Sabbath..
Title: Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
Post by: Amo on Sat Jan 11, 2020 - 16:05:50
A summary
Gen 1 and the beginning of 2 describes God's creation of the world in 7 days.This is was unique event.
 
Each of the first 6 days God creates something new that scripture does not record God creating on any other day or since that day. Each day was unique in time.
 
On the 7th day scripture records God rested from the work he had been doing on the first 6 days.
Scripture does not record God resting on any other day. It too was unique in time.
 
But GB believes it was a repeatable event but  cannot provide a single line of scripture that says God rested on any other day.
 
Nowhere in scripture does God command a human to rest every 7th day before he gave that command to the Israelites in the desert (Ex 16:23 onwards).
But GB believes God did, but  cannot provide a single line of scripture that says God gave that command before Ex 16:23.
 
 
Nowhere in scripture does it record a human resting on the 7th day before the Israelites in the desert (Ex 16:23 onwards).
But GB believes some humans did, but  cannot provide a single line of scripture that says any human rested on the 7th day before the Israelites in the desert (Ex 16:23 onwards).

You presume no one did. Others rightly so, presume that the God who just created our entire world by the command of His voice, was listened to by that creation when He blessed and sanctified the seventh day immediately after finishing His creation. We know there were laws, statutes, and commandments of God before those given to Israel because the scriptures testify that Abraham kept them. You simply choose to believe that the Sabbath commandment was apparently not among them, even though the commandment given to Israel said remember God's Sabbath. Who should remember something that never existed in the first place?

Gen 26:1 And there was a famine in the land, beside the first famine that was in the days of Abraham. And Isaac went unto Abimelech king of the Philistines unto Gerar. 2 And the LORD appeared unto him, and said, Go not down into Egypt; dwell in the land which I shall tell thee of: 3 Sojourn in this land, and I will be with thee, and will bless thee; for unto thee, and unto thy seed, I will give all these countries, and I will perform the oath which I sware unto Abraham thy father; 4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; 5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

At least those of us who acknowledge and keep God's seventh day sabbath and advise others to observe it by faith, have scripture references and commands concerning the same. Sunday keepers have and do repeatedly force their chosen day of worship upon all through civil legislation with no mention of Sunday sacredness anywhere in scripture at all. If they know that God intended a day of worship for His chosen nation during the old covenant, and are even so convinced that He wants one now during this new covenant that they make and pass civil laws in relation to them, why do or would they think He didn't want one then? What sense does that make? Especially when He declared a blessed and sanctified day at the very beginning of the time in question. Let's not forget Isaiah's prophecy of sabbath observance in the new heaven and new earth as well. Seventh day sabbath keepers and promoters are not the inconsistent ones here.


Title: Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
Post by: GB on Sat Jan 11, 2020 - 17:38:56
Quote
author=Michael2012 link=topic=74624.msg1055154424#msg1055154424 date=1578738542]

Dishonesty is of the devil not of God. Every child of God knows that.

God says;

Ex. 20:8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.

9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:

10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:

11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

And again:

Is. 58:13 If thou turn away thy foot from the sabbath, from doing thy pleasure on my holy day; and call the sabbath a delight, the holy of the LORD, honourable; and shalt honour him, not doing thine own ways, nor finding thine own pleasure, nor speaking thine own words:

14 Then shalt thou delight thyself in the LORD; and I will cause thee to ride upon the high places of the earth, and feed thee with the heritage of Jacob thy father: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it.

I've heard people use this as their justification for not accepting God's instruction regarding His Sabbath for years.

Quote
Yes. I delight and take great pleasure in the Lord not only in the seventh day of the week, but every day, calling everyday a delight and honorable, and striving to honor every day that the Lord has made, by not going my own way and not doing as I please, but going in the way of the Lord and doing His will.

I'm sorry Michael, even God worked 6 days a week. I'm not buying your story that you don't have "servile" work you do, or personal pleasure 7 days a week. And there is no law against that.

You are claiming to honor God in a manner of your own choosing. Your way sounds good to you, just as the fruit of the tree looked good to Eve.

But it's your way, not the Christ's. You have no Sabbath while claiming every day is your sabbath. We are commanded to work six days and dedicate the 7th to God.

Maybe it doesn't matter, but I'm not a liar for pointing it out.




 







Title: Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
Post by: RB on Sun Jan 12, 2020 - 04:32:18
While it is true there is nowhere in the Bible where the Holy Sabbath of the Lord, was changed from the 7th to the 1st day, as you preach. It is also not true that the 7th Day is the only day of worship.
I'm finished I believe in dealing with this subject for reasons given above. If you desire to go here: http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/theology/re-did-the-apostle-paul-err-on-occasion/105/ and address my last two posts Replies #132 and 138 to restrats then feel free to do so and we may speak more on this subject but in all sincerity, these two threads are at a dead-end, and see little or no profit in continuing them.
Quote from: GB Reply #209 on: Yesterday at 10:07:22
While it is true there is nowhere in the Bible where the Holy Sabbath of the Lord, was changed from the 7th to the 1st day, as you preach. 
I did not say that~The Sabbaths as the Jews knew it and practice has been changed! Read my two posts here:http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/theology/re-did-the-apostle-paul-err-on-occasion/105/ and refute it if you believe you can with scriptures in the NT, especially so in the churches epistles. A point that I have yet to go into and maybe will at some point is the Lord's day as mentioned by John~what DAY is that in John's practice and understanding post the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ~ do you believe? Again I believe the scripture is clear that the Sabbath day is for us under the NT is any day FOLLOWING SIX DAYS OF WORKING and that would be different for policemen, hospitals employees, etc., etc. The Jewish Sabbath was ALWAYS ON THE SAME DAY since it was a commandment that everyone had to REST on what we know is Saturday~ everyone from the children of Israel, all servants, and all beasts, there were only acts of mercy allowed, since the sabbath was made FOR MAN, not man for the Sabbath! Of course, we know that the Pharisees ONLY allowed mercy for themselves and not for man~if the their ox fell into the ditch they would help him out, yet if man was hungry, NO MERCY FOR THEM were allowed......unless it was for them where no one would have seen them doing whatever they desired to do for themselves!
Quote from: GB Reply #209 on: Yesterday at 10:07:22
The Holy 7th day Sabbath is basically a fast from the wicked world we live in. A foreshadow of the time when our "work" to over come, even as He overcame, is over. A shadow of the time when we will no longer need to "Put on" His Armor to resist the devil, when we will no longer need "escapes" from temptation.
Give scriptures to support what you are saying.  The sabbath was MADE FOR MAN, to refresh his body, mind, and soul! Both physical and mentally. It would even benefit NON-BELIEVERS if practiced according to the word of God. It even benefits the GROUND OF THE EARTH if a farmer rotated his crops every seven years and rested a certain portion of his land every seventh year~ the first year AFTER the rest year would produce MUCH MORE CROPS then if he had NOT rested his ground every seventh year. Need proof?
Quote from: Moses
Leviticus 25:4~"But in the seventh year shall be a sabbath of rest unto the land, a sabbath for the LORD: thou shalt neither sow thy field nor prune thy vineyard."
I even practice this with the planting of flowers in certain spots, I ALLOW the earth to rest once every seven years, or else the results will be less than desired without question.  Now it is true that when we practice resting the seventh day following six working days, our minds are much more refresh in worshipping God through reading, praying, and mediations of the holy scriptures. Indeed the sabbath was made FOR MAN, not man for the sabbath.
Quote from: GB Reply #209 on: Yesterday at 10:07:22
Yes, there are religious voices, men who come in Christ's Name, men who use God's Word, just as the serpent did, to convince men to reject the Path foreordained by God that we should walk in them.

And most folks will go in thereat. But for those who believe "Every Word of God", there is another path in which He tells us to "Strive to enter".
We all believe that, but this is not the subject under consideration.  Stay with the subject under consideration and stay away from your many ad hominem fallacies. If you want to discuss Matthew 7:21-23 then start another thread and do so.
Title: Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
Post by: winsome on Sun Jan 12, 2020 - 06:47:33
You presume no one did. Others rightly so, presume that the God who just created our entire world by the command of His voice, was listened to by that creation when He blessed and sanctified the seventh day immediately after finishing His creation. We know there were laws, statutes, and commandments of God before those given to Israel because the scriptures testify that Abraham kept them. You simply choose to believe that the Sabbath commandment was apparently not among them, even though the commandment given to Israel said remember God's Sabbath. Who should remember something that never existed in the first place?

Gen 26:1 And there was a famine in the land, beside the first famine that was in the days of Abraham. And Isaac went unto Abimelech king of the Philistines unto Gerar. 2 And the LORD appeared unto him, and said, Go not down into Egypt; dwell in the land which I shall tell thee of: 3 Sojourn in this land, and I will be with thee, and will bless thee; for unto thee, and unto thy seed, I will give all these countries, and I will perform the oath which I sware unto Abraham thy father; 4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; 5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

At least those of us who acknowledge and keep God's seventh day sabbath and advise others to observe it by faith, have scripture references and commands concerning the same. Sunday keepers have and do repeatedly force their chosen day of worship upon all through civil legislation with no mention of Sunday sacredness anywhere in scripture at all. If they know that God intended a day of worship for His chosen nation during the old covenant, and are even so convinced that He wants one now during this new covenant that they make and pass civil laws in relation to them, why do or would they think He didn't want one then? What sense does that make? Especially when He declared a blessed and sanctified day at the very beginning of the time in question. Let's not forget Isaiah's prophecy of sabbath observance in the new heaven and new earth as well. Seventh day sabbath keepers and promoters are not the inconsistent ones here.
Once again a lot of words but not a single scripture to show where God commanded a human to rest every 7th day before he gave that command to the Israelites in the desert (Ex 16:23 onwards). 

And  not a single scripture to show that a human rested on the 7th day before the Israelites in the desert (Ex 16:23 onwards).   

You may believe that God instuted a 7th day sabbath before Ex 16:23 but it is not supported by scripture.
Title: Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
Post by: winsome on Sun Jan 12, 2020 - 08:43:14
. You simply choose to believe that the Sabbath commandment was apparently not among them, even though the commandment given to Israel said remember God's Sabbath. Who should remember something that never existed in the first place?
The Sabbath did exist before God said to remember the sabbath in Ex 20:8. 
He taught them about the sabbath in Ex 16:23-30.
They didn't understand it clearly showing they knew npthing about it before then.
Title: Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
Post by: GB on Sun Jan 12, 2020 - 09:38:38
 author=RB link=topic=74624.msg1055154534#msg1055154534 date=1578825138]


Quote
I did not say that
~

Yes, you did Red, I've posted your statement several times. Don't hide yourself from your own flesh Red.

Quote
The Sabbaths as the Jews knew it and practice has been changed!

The Sabbath, as the Jews knew it, had been corrupted by them for centuries. This is a Biblical Fact. The Sabbath they promoted,  is/was not the Lord's Sabbath. Zechariahs knew and partook of the Lord's Sabbath, Simeon did, Jesus did, but the Pharisees and religious leadership of the Jews did not.

The Christ Never Changed His Own perfect Sabbath. Religious men have been changing and polluting it since He first gave His Sabbath to Israel. Jesus, that Isaiah describes as, "The restorer of paths to walk in", exposed the Jews and the way they had despised and corrupted God's Commandments, including His Sabbaths. He reminds them, I am the Lord of the Sabbath, in other words, the Sabbath is Mine, I know what it means. 


Quote
The Jewish Sabbath was ALWAYS ON THE SAME DAY since it was a commandment that everyone had to REST on what we know is Saturday~ everyone from the children of Israel, all servants, and all beasts, there were only acts of mercy allowed, since the sabbath was made FOR MAN, not man for the Sabbath!

Why do you insist on preaching that God's Holy Sabbath is a Jewish Sabbath? God is not a Jew. The Christ Himself said the Biblical Sabbath was HIS. HIS Feasts, His Oracles that He gave to Abraham's Children. HIS Sabbath was made for man, not just Jews. His Sabbath that HE created is the 7th day of the week, according to the Holy scriptures. The Jews despised God's Sabbaths, and greatly polluted them. Why do you insist in naming HIS Sabbath after those who defiled it, polluted it, despised it, and killed Him for preaching it?

Quote
Of course, we know that the Pharisees ONLY allowed mercy for themselves and not for man~if the their ox fell into the ditch they would help him out, yet if man was hungry, NO MERCY FOR THEM were allowed......unless it was for them where no one would have seen them doing whatever they desired to do for themselves!

It wasn't just mercy that the Mainstream Preachers of Jesus time omitted from their religion.


Quote
Give scriptures to support what you are saying.  The sabbath was MADE FOR MAN, to refresh his body, mind, and soul! Both physical and mentally. It would even benefit NON-BELIEVERS if practiced according to the word of God. It even benefits the GROUND OF THE EARTH if a farmer rotated his crops every seven years and rested a certain portion of his land every seventh year~ the first year AFTER the rest year would produce MUCH MORE CROPS then if he had NOT rested his ground every seventh year. Need proof?

The Sabbath isn't about corn or dirt. It's about self understanding. Self honestly. It's about Honoring the Christ that created it, that purchased us with His Blood. It's about Spiritual renewal of the mind. It's about keeping in mind the rest that awaits for His servants who "Endure till the end".

Here are the scriptures you asked for.

IS. 58:5 Is it such a fast that I have chosen? a day for a man to afflict his soul? is it to bow down his head as a bulrush, and to spread sackcloth and ashes under him? wilt thou call this a fast, and an acceptable day to the LORD?

6 Is not this the fast that I have chosen? to loose the bands of wickedness, to undo the heavy burdens, and to let the oppressed  go free, and that ye break every yoke? (Deception)

7 Is it not to deal thy bread to the hungry, and that thou bring the poor that are cast out to thy house? when thou seest the naked, that thou cover him; and that thou hide not thyself from thine own flesh?

Is. 58:12 And they that shall be of thee shall build the old waste places: thou shalt raise up the foundations of many generations; and thou shalt be called, The repairer of the breach, The restorer of paths to dwell in.

13 If thou turn away thy foot from the sabbath, from doing thy pleasure on my holy day; (Not the Jews as you falsely preach) and call the sabbath a delight, the holy of the LORD, honourable; and shalt honour him, not doing thine own ways, nor finding thine own pleasure, nor speaking thine own words:

14 Then shalt thou delight thyself in the LORD; and I will cause thee to ride upon the high places of the earth, and feed thee with the heritage of Jacob thy father: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it.

We are to serve the Lord, and Love Him every day, including the 1st day of the week. But there is only ONE Day of the week that HE Blessed, and HE Sanctified and HE Hallowed.

It's not for raising plants, it doesn't do those who don't believe in the Christ any Spiritual good. It's not for changing, polluting, defiling, despising, ignoring, or preaching against by religious men.

EZ. 20:19 I am the LORD your God; walk in my statutes, and keep my judgments, and do them;

20 And hallow my sabbaths; and they shall be a sign between me and you, that ye may know that I am the LORD your God.

At least according to the Christ of the Bible.


Title: Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
Post by: Amo on Sun Jan 12, 2020 - 09:57:24
Once again a lot of words but not a single scripture to show where God commanded a human to rest every 7th day before he gave that command to the Israelites in the desert (Ex 16:23 onwards). 

And  not a single scripture to show that a human rested on the 7th day before the Israelites in the desert (Ex 16:23 onwards).   

You may believe that God instuted a 7th day sabbath before Ex 16:23 but it is not supported by scripture.

You may of course keep telling yourself whatever you wish. The truth is plain to see for all those rejecting error. Those trying desperately to escape the truth even went as far as changing God's commandments to pretend there was no seventh day Sabbath from the beginning. Nevertheless the fourth commandment itself proves the opposite. God declared it to be so at the end of creation.

Gen 2:1 Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them. 2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made. 3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

Then He pointed the nation He chose and formed back to creation to remember the sabbath day He had established at that time.

Exo 20:8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: 10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: 11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

God tells all in His fourth commandment when and where He established His sabbath. This is the plain and simple light of scripture, but those who prefer darkness do always follow the example of the father of lies and attempt to cloud and confuse the same.

Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

The light bearer and Lord of the sabbath said -

Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. 19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God. The Word of God testifies that He blessed and sanctified the seventh day at creation, that He reminded the nation He chose and established to keep His sabbath forever, that all who will keep His sabbath will be blessed for doing so, that the sabbath would be kept by the gentiles He would bring into His fold in the future, that the seventh day sabbath would be kept in the new heaven and new earth. When Jesus came to us as one of us He taught the sabbath's proper observance, told us that none of His commandments would ever change before heaven and earth passed, and even spoke of His followers keeping His sabbath after He was gone. All of this do the children of darkness reject as deception, that they may follow their own course in exalting the man of sin and the times, laws, and day he has exalted. So be it. 

Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) 16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: 17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: 18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. 19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! 20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: 21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened. 23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. 24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. 25 Behold, I have told you before. 26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not. 27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
Title: Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
Post by: Amo on Sun Jan 12, 2020 - 10:01:57
The Sabbath did exist before God said to remember the sabbath in Ex 20:8. 
He taught them about the sabbath in Ex 16:23-30.
They didn't understand it clearly showing they knew npthing about it before then.

They didn't know anything about it. It had been forgotten and lost over time. This does not take away from the fact, that the sabbath was established at creation. Therefore any reference to remembering it, would include going back to the beginning where the fourth commandment points out that it was established. You simply deny this because you have chosen deception and darkness over truth. So be it.
Title: Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
Post by: winsome on Sun Jan 12, 2020 - 10:56:00
You may of course keep telling yourself whatever you wish. The truth is plain to see for all those rejecting error. Those trying desperately to escape the truth even went as far as changing God's commandments to pretend there was no seventh day Sabbath from the beginning. Nevertheless the fourth commandment itself proves the opposite. God declared it to be so at the end of creation.

Gen 2:1 Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them. 2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made. 3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.
No he didn't declare it was a sabbath. 
Do you see the word Sabbath in there?Answer - no.
You just read it where it isn't.
Does it say God blessed and sanctified every 7th day? 
No, it doesn't It says God blessed and sanctifies that day. It was the final day of creation week.It says he sanctified it not them.

Does he tell anyone to keep every 7th day as a sabbath? 
No he doesn't!
Then He pointed the nation He chose and formed back to creation to remember the sabbath day He had established at that time.

Exo 20:8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: 10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: 11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

God tells all in His fourth commandment when and where He established His sabbath. This is the plain and simple light of scripture, but those who prefer darkness do always follow the example of the father of lies and attempt to cloud and confuse the same.
he established the sabbath in Ex 16:23-30. Read it.They didn't understand, so when he gaveve them the Covenant laws he had to  tell them to remember it,


Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

The light bearer and Lord of the sabbath said -

Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. 19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God. The Word of God testifies that He blessed and sanctified the seventh day at creation, that He reminded the nation He chose and established to keep His sabbath forever, that all who will keep His sabbath will be blessed for doing so, that the sabbath would be kept by the gentiles He would bring into His fold in the future, that the seventh day sabbath would be kept in the new heaven and new earth. When Jesus came to us as one of us He taught the sabbath's proper observance, told us that none of His commandments would ever change before heaven and earth passed, and even spoke of His followers keeping His sabbath after He was gone. All of this do the children of darkness reject as deception, that they may follow their own course in exalting the man of sin and the times, laws, and day he has exalted. So be it. 

Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) 16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: 17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: 18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. 19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! 20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: 21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened. 23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. 24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. 25 Behold, I have told you before. 26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not. 27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
That says nothing about the establishment of the sabbath.

You say "The Word of God testifies that He blessed and sanctified the seventh day at creation".
No it doesn't testify that.
God sanctified the 7th day OF creation not every 7th day AT creation.
It was a specific day he sanctified, just as it was a specific day he created birds and fishes, and a specific day he created animals
Title: Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
Post by: winsome on Sun Jan 12, 2020 - 11:03:03
They didn't know anything about it. It had been forgotten and lost over time.
Pure speculation.
You provide no evidence for that supposition.
This does not take away from the fact, that the sabbath was established at creation.
That is not a fact. It's your opinion.

Therefore any reference to remembering it, would include going back to the beginning where the fourth commandment points out that it was established.
Since your "fact" was untrue your supposition about remembering has no basis.

You simply deny this because you have chosen deception and darkness over truth. So be it.
No, I go by scripture and the fact is that you cannot provide a single scripture that says God gave the sabbath command before Ex 16:23. 
The fact is that you cannot provide a single scripture that records a human resting on the 7th day before the Israelites in the desert (Ex 16:23 onwards).
Title: Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
Post by: RB on Sun Jan 12, 2020 - 13:06:51
Yes, you did Red, I've posted your statement several times. Don't hide yourself from your own flesh Red.
Not sure why I'm even posting to you and sinning against my conscience and the Lord, for it is nothing more than casting pearls before a swine. But since you are again lying and showing your deceitful spirit~it's hard to allow you to deceive others (if that is possible by your irrational and vain repetitious posts) and sit quietly without speaking out~ YET, knowing that it will go nowhere!  

So, prove that you are not lying by posting my several statements that you said I have said. You said that I said
Quote from: GB Reply #209 on: Yesterday at 10:07:22
While it is true there is nowhere in the Bible where the Holy Sabbath of the Lord, was changed from the 7th to the 1st day, as you preach.
Never said that! You have a lying spirit that's from the Devil himself! This should concern you, but it does not.
Quote from: GB the father of ad hominem fallacies
The Sabbath, as the Jews knew it, had been corrupted by them for centuries. This is a Biblical Fact. The Sabbath they promoted,  is/was not the Lord's Sabbath. Zechariahs knew and partook of the Lord's Sabbath, Simeon did, Jesus did, but the Pharisees and religious leadership of the Jews did not.
No one denys this~No one has said otherwise!
Quote from: GB Reply #234 on: Today at 09:38:38
Why do you insist on preaching that God's Holy Sabbath is a Jewish Sabbath?
Very simple, the sabbath from Moses until Christ was given to them ALONE in the manner in which it was given!
Quote from: Moses
Exdous 31:16~Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant.'
Not only the weekly sabbath but other sabbath days, one which included the LAND, (given already above) animals, etc.  The sabbaths AS GIVEN TO ISRAEL did NOT include you and me, or any other person living post-Christ and his resurrection! Even though as I said above there is WISDOM in allowing the land to rest AFTER six years of laboring! Yet, it is NOT a commandment to do so for us!
Quote from: GB Reply #234 on: Today at 09:38:38
The Sabbath isn't about corn or dirt. It's about self understanding. Self honestly. It's about Honoring the Christ that created it, that purchased us with His Blood. It's about Spiritual renewal of the mind. It's about keeping in mind the rest that awaits for His servants who "Endure till the end".
GB, I asked you above to prove your statement when you said basically the same thing as you did here: and you came back with five scriptures from Isaiah 58 that you had no spiritual understanding what the prophet was truly saying.

I'm coming back with a verse by verse commentary on Isaiah's words, something that I have never seen you even attempted to do, and the reason why is that you have no spiritual light in you, pure and simple. 
Title: Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
Post by: winsome on Sun Jan 12, 2020 - 14:19:17
@Amo, @GB

Moses is normally credited with composing the first 5 books of the Bible, but for all of Genesis he was not alive.

Please tell me regarding the stories in Genesis - creation/fall, Tower of Babel/ Noah etc - did:
a) Moses write down what had been passed down through the generations from Adam and Eve?
or 
b) Make it all up?
Title: Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
Post by: beam on Sun Jan 12, 2020 - 21:42:39
author=beam link=topic=74624.msg1055154415#msg1055154415 date=1578708528]

For 25 years I studied the Bible apart from any mainstream religious influence, at least as much as is possible in our world today. What I found is that what the Scriptures teach, and what religious men teach are two different things
.
Very admiral of you. 

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Which confirmed all the Prophesies, including warnings from Jesus Himself, which warn of religious men teaching differently than what God teaches. And also aligns with all the examples of religious men through out the Bible who teach differently than what God teaches.

So given that God is not a liar, at least not in my mind, there are "many" religious men who teach differently than God.

This is a Biblical, Spiritual, truth that can not be denied if one relies on the Holy Scriptures for doctrine.
So, because you have studied for 25 years I am to take your word for telling me I am wrong for everything???  Come on brother/sister, telling me I am following the teachings of men, but then not explaining how I have done this is, at best,  very shallow.

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You have provided a perfect example of a man who has been influenced by "other Voices" of religious men that teach falsehoods. God did not command Israel to obey 613 laws. This number was made up by religious men to make God look like an unjust God who burdens His People with countless, burdensome laws. This is done to convince people to reject God's Laws, just as the "other religious voice" convinced Eve. It is a lie, a falsehood which you promote, but can not back up.
The Jews to whom the 613 laws of the Sinai covenant was given to are the ones that have counted them and claim there were 613.  You were quick to tell me I am promoting a lie yet you didn't correct me with the truth.  I suppose you took the time to count all of them, so why not instead of intimidation just tell me what is  the truth.

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The Mainstream Preachers of Christ's time did the same thing. They also taught lies about God and His Laws to convince folks to follow the religious tradition of man, which transgressed the Commandments of God.
You really need to know I am not buying anything you have written.  Where is the meat!!!  How about some facts instead of just blowing in the wind?

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There is no 613 laws commanded by God for Israel to follow. It is an insidious lie that you will not even try to defend, if you actually really ever looked at the website that promotes this myth.
Hogwash!  I have gone over each one trying to find one I needed to post.  www.jewfaq.org

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The sad thing is that because of Pride, even when religious men look at this myth and see that they were deceived, the humiliation of admitting their error is just too much to bear for most.
The real sad thein is your coming on here and not adding anything to the debate except hot air.

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My hope for you is that you will look into this myth and be corrected. Then maybe we can have an intellectually honest discussion about scriptures. Until then, this conversation is a vanity.
Look friend I am near 85 years old and I am not about to waste my time adding up the defunct laws of the old covenant.  If you are not willing to give us the "real" facts then so be it.  It is not a matter of salvation anyway.  In fact, I think it was petty of you to bring it up in the first place, especially leaving us without what you say you have learned.


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What I pitch is what the Scriptures say, all of them, not just a few that can be wrested to promote some religious tradition of men.
So far all you have "pitched" is hot air

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See, you are doing it again. You are promoting falsehood you heard from some religious man somewhere.
All you have done is criticize.  Where is the meat???

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Joshua 2:9 And she said unto the men, I know that the LORD hath given you the land, and that your terror is fallen upon us, and that all the inhabitants of the land faint because of you.

10 For we have heard how the LORD dried up the water of the Red sea for you, when ye came out of Egypt; and what ye did unto the two kings of the Amorites, that were on the other side Jordan, Sihon and Og, whom ye utterly destroyed.

The whole city of Jericho knew of the God of Abraham and His Chosen People. They could all have become Rehab's if they chose and God would have accepted them just as HIS Laws that He gave Israel promised.

Did the Jews have an advantage? Yes, much in every way, because God did give HIS Laws to them. But with many God was not well pleased, because they rebelled against Him. They didn't follow God's Laws, but rejected them and "taught for doctrines the Commandments of men". But had they listened to God and taught the truth, there would have been a lot more Rehabs.

Is. 56:6 Also the sons of the stranger, (Non- Jews)that join themselves to the LORD, to serve him, and to love the name of the LORD, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant;

7 Even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted upon mine altar; for mine house shall be called an house of prayer for all people.

But Israel refused to teach God's Way.

Ez. 36:20 And when they entered unto the heathen, whither they went, they profaned my holy name, when they said to them, These are the people of the LORD, and are gone forth out of his land.

21 But I had pity for mine holy name, which the house of Israel had profaned among the heathen, whither they went.

Paul confirms.

Rom. 2:23 Thou that makest thy boast of the law, through breaking the law dishonourest thou God?

24 For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles through you, as it is written.

It wasn't God's Law that separated the rest of the world from Him, it was the corrupt Preachers of the first covenant God made with Israel, charged with the Priesthood duties of administering God's Laws and providing for atonement of sins.
::frown::

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Yes, and we can even go straight to the Creator of the New Covenant and hear the Christ Himself define it for us.
Jesus didn't come on the scene until His Birth.  It was the Word.   The Word was made flesh.  I hope that helps.

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Jer. 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel;

OK Beam, here it is. You can read it for yourself without any "Priest" as a middle man. Just you, and the Word of God which became flesh.

 After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, (Just as He said, just you and the Word's of the Christ) and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more. (No Levitical Priesthood "works of the Law" needed, just you and the Christ.
Ah ha! pretty sneaky.  Why did you leave out the best part.  You think others do not know scripture?  32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord: Now why would you do a thing like that?
 

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There, you are doing it again. Preaching things about God's Word that are untrue. You just read HIM defining HIS New Covenant.

Ha! I read your sneaky version.  Again, why would you want to such a thing?

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Where does He say this anywhere in His Inspired Holy Scriptures?
Didn't you write that you have been studying scripture for 25 years and you have yet to realize that christians are under the new and better covenant?

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He doesn't Beam.
Wrong, wrong and more wrong.  The Sabbath was given on tablets of stone at Mt. Sinai.  Paul, the ambassador of Jesus wrote in 2Cor 3:6-11 KJV that the 10 were done away.  No, not Mose face as you so like to think.  If you have any grasp of the English language you know when you read it that it was the 10 commandments.

 
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Religious man does, but God's Word doesn't. Read for yourself.

Paul never did any such thing. Here is what Paul said.

Col. 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

The Sabbaths of the Lord are HIS Sabbaths, created for man. They are not a creation of man, or a tradition of Man. It's in your own Bible.

16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:

17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

Religious traditions of men are shadows of nothing.

Again, like your 613 laws myth, you are listening to "other religious voices" like Eve did. I implore you to "come out of her" and look into the scriptures your own self.
I will say one thing, you sure can twist scripture to fit your preconceived purpose.
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This verse doesn't say God destroyed His Laws that He promised to write on the hearts of His People. The "Glory of Moses" was done away with, "Moses Seat", the manner in which God's Law is administered. No more death to atone for sins. You are being tricked by religious men if you think this verse wipes out the New Covenant the Christ promised.
That is what you would like for it to say.  As I said above one must have a grasp of the English language to properly understand that it was the 10 he was referring.  Verse 7 says: 7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious.  It was not Mose face that was glorious.   Verse 8 says:8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious? 
  More glorious that Mose head?  You have to be kidding comparing Moses head with the Holy Spirit.  It doesn't fit now does it?  Verse 9 we read:  9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.  Where does Moses head fit into that equation?  Verse 10 says: 10 For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth.
All Moses head did was to reflect the glory of the 10 commandments.  And then comes the clincher: 11
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For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.
  "Is" in the sentence present tense, "was" in the sentence is past tense.   Paul is telling us that the 10 commandments as Israel's guid has been replaced with the Holy Spirit as our guide.  25 years of study ahd you still do not have it all right.
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That is another myth you have learned from religious man. And have been convinced to promote it.
Did someone else help you to be hoodwinked or did you do it by yourself?


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Is 58:13 If thou turn away thy foot from the sabbath, from doing thy pleasure on my holy day; and call the sabbath a delight, the holy of the LORD, honourable; and shalt honour him, not doing thine own ways, nor finding thine own pleasure, nor speaking thine own words:

It was only Holy for Israel because it was Holy to God.
Yes it WAS.  Jesus was born a man under the laws of the Sinai covenant.  Of course He honored those laws he was under.  A better covenant was on the horizon.





Title: Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
Post by: RB on Mon Jan 13, 2020 - 04:01:21
GB, seems like others have you pretty well figured you out!
Quote from: GB  beam on: Yesterday at 21:42:39
You really need to know I am not buying anything you have written.  Where is the meat!!!  How about some facts instead of just blowing in the wind?
Quote from: GB  beam on: Yesterday at 21:42:39
The real sad is your coming on here and not adding anything to the debate except hot air
Quote from: GB  beam on: Yesterday at 21:42:39
All you have done is criticize.  Where is the meat???
Quote from: GB  beam on: Yesterday at 21:42:39
Jesus didn't come on the scene until His Birth.  It was the Word.   The Word was made flesh.  I hope that helps.
Mr. Beam, he does not believe that Jesus was BOTH God and man~I have asked him to come here and debate me on this all-important doctrine, yet he refuses to do so. http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/seventh-day-adventist-forum-(sda)/michael-the-archangel-one-who-is-god/ I desire to expose him for who he truly is: antichrist spirit!
Quote from: THE HOLY GHOST
2nd John 9-11~"Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son. If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed: For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds."
Mr. Beam pointed out:
Quote from: GB  beam on: Yesterday at 21:42:39
Ah ha! pretty sneaky.  Why did you leave out the best part.  You think others do not know scripture?  32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord: Now why would you do a thing like that?
Becuase he is deceived and laboring to deceive others! He truly does not believe in the NEW COVENANT because he is a SON OF ISMAEL. We know what the scriptures said to do with such people! Galatians 4 They will NOT be heirs with the children of God's PROMISES and His holy OATH!
Quote from: GB  beam on: Yesterday at 21:42:39
Didn't you write that you have been studying scripture for 25 years and you have yet to realize that christians are under the new and better covenant?
Because they are children of the BONDWOMAN!
Quote from: GB  beam on: Yesterday at 21:42:39
Yes it WAS.  Jesus was born a man under the laws of the Sinai covenant.  Of course He honored those laws he was under.  A better covenant was on the horizon.
God had ALWAYS worked under the New Covenant toward his people from Abel on, yet the FULL revelation of the New Covenant became known at the death of its Testator and all of its heirs~CHILDREN OF FREE GRACE, not of the works of the first covenant, but children of two immutable acts of God...His promise of FREE GRACE based upon his holy oath! A Sure anchor for our hope of eternal life! All of God's children shouted AMEN and AMEN!

Title: Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
Post by: Michael2012 on Mon Jan 13, 2020 - 04:10:56
Quote from: Michael
Quote from: GB
Did the Jews have an advantage? Yes, much in every way, because God did give HIS Laws to them.
If your statement is true, can you tell us how that is an advantage and much in every way?
Because there is a God and He has Oracles.

3 For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?

4 God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.

In other words, God's Oracles are true, and religious men who preach against them, add to them or take away from them are liars. Today, because of the Christ's New Covenant, we all have the "Oracles of God" as He promised.

In these oracles there are commandments that "many" just don't believe in. Like the Command to Keep the Sabbath of the Lord Holy, and don't work on it. (Servile)

Heb. 4:4 For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works.

5 And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest.

6 Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief:

These are those who despised and Polluted His Holy Sabbath Day.

9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.

10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.

11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.

It is a big advantage for us to have in all our homes, the oracles of God. We don't have to depend on religious men for our "instruction in righteousness", for doctrines, or correction. We have every thing we need to be "wise unto Salvation".

This is a huge advantage over those who must rely on religious men for their knowledge.

Apparently, what you say there is not quite what your statements "Did the Jews have an advantage? Yes, much in every way, because God did give HIS Laws to them." say. For you say at first "HIS Laws" and here you say "oracles".

This is what we have in scriptures in relation to your statements:

Romans 3: 1 What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?

2 Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.


While it is true that God gave them His laws, it is different from the committing the Oracles of God. The oracles of God not only are about His law but a lot more such as prophecies and promises.

You said "We have every thing we need to be "wise unto Salvation".

What is it you refer to "every thing" which you say we need to be wise unto salvation?
Title: Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
Post by: Michael2012 on Mon Jan 13, 2020 - 04:12:36
Quote from: Michael
GB, can you kindly point to all the scriptures where the commandments, statutes, ordinances, judgments of God can be found, that you consider the law of God (besides the Sabbath day) that He gave for all men to keep, so the board can consider and examine them?

I'm sure you would claim to know them and keep them.
If you don't know what God's Laws are, you shouldn't be preaching as if you do.

Well, I thought I can see some kindness. Well....

I requested this for the purpose stated in my post, not because I don't know what God's laws are. But what I don't know is what you consider the law of God. If you want yourself to be understood, you owe anyone here, when asked, to tell them what they ask of you that would clarify what you mean to say. For example you speak of Sabbath. If one ask you for the definition of Sabbath or what Sabbath means to you for clarification so that he would understand what you are saying by it, should you not tell them, or should you rather ridicule their asking? You speak of God's law. If one ask you what you consider to be the law of God that He gave for all men to keep, for clarification, so the board can consider and examine them, should you not tell them, or should you rather ridicule their asking? Well that says a lot about you ....

Title: Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
Post by: Michael2012 on Mon Jan 13, 2020 - 04:27:59
Quote from: Michael
Regarding that passage in Colossians 2, clearly those mentioned in verse 16 which has to do with eating, drinking, of holy days, new moons and even sabbath days are said in verse 17 to be a shadow of things to come, the body of which is of Christ. If a shadow is of the body of Christ, I am sure there is no debate that it cannot be spoken of as something bad or evil.
True, but religious men and religious traditions of men have been bad and evil through out the Bible. They think they are holy and just, but they are not. This is the very purpose of Col. 2. Paul is warning about being spoiled (made rotten) by the philosophy of men pushing traditions of men and rudiments of the world, and not of the Christ.

For instance, the Sabbaths and Commandments of the Bible are of the Christ. The Sunday Sabbath in the religions of the land, is a tradition of men. Paul is telling the true believers to know the difference, and not to let anyone convince them, or judge them for their voluntary humility towards the Holy Christ's Word's over the traditions of men, which will "parish with the using".

If you say that what I've written in my quoted post there is true, then you agree that what is said in verse 16 which has to do with eating, drinking, of holy days, new moons and even sabbath days, being a shadow of Christ, are not bad or evil.

If such things foreshadows Christ and are not bad or evil, but are good, why do you say they refer to traditions of men and rudiments of the world? Can these traditions of men and rudiments of the world you refer to, be said to be a shadow of things to come, the body of which is of Christ?   
Title: Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
Post by: Michael2012 on Mon Jan 13, 2020 - 04:30:27
Quote from: Michael
If you are striving to enter the narrow gate, that means you know where the narrow gate is. Tell us where is the narrow gate that you strive to enter?
I'll let the Christ answer this for you.

Duet. 30:9 And the LORD thy God will make thee plenteous in every work of thine hand, in the fruit of thy body, and in the fruit of thy cattle, and in the fruit of thy land, for good: for the LORD will again rejoice over thee for good, as he rejoiced over thy fathers:

10 If thou shalt hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to keep his commandments and his statutes which are written in this book of the law, and if thou turn unto the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul.

11 For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not hidden from thee, neither is it far off.

12 It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?

13 Neither is it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?

14 But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it.

15 See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil;

16 In that I command thee this day to love the LORD thy God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commandments and his statutes and his judgments, that thou mayest live and multiply: and the LORD thy God shall bless thee in the land whither thou goest to possess it.

As you can surely see, not many folks will "Strive to enter" this Path. But Jesus walked it. He is the actual Author of this Path, and we are told to "Walk even as He Walked".

We have everything we need, including volumes of examples of folks, both who "strived to enter" and those who created their own Path.

Heb. 12:1 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,

2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

3 For consider him that endured such contradiction of sinners against himself, lest ye be wearied and faint in your minds.

4 Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.

The question "Tell us where is the narrow gate that you strive to enter?" Clearly, what I am asking is the gate, not the path.

And I have to say, be careful in saying "I'll let the Christ answer this for you.", making it appear that what you say is in fact what Christ says.

It seems to me that while you say and claim "I am striving to enter the narrow gate.", you can't even point to us where the narrow gate you refer to is. How can you enter a gate which you don't know?
Title: Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
Post by: Michael2012 on Mon Jan 13, 2020 - 04:40:22
Quote from: Michael
Quote from: GB
Rom. 2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:

29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.
With regards that scriptures you quoted in one of your post, let me ask you this question:

To whom did God made a covenant with during the time of Moses? Was it with the outward Jews or the inward Jews?
He made the Covenant with the home born, which also included the stranger that chose to sojourn with them.

This Covenant was to promote folks to "circumcised the foreskins of their heart". This Covenant that the Christ made with them, a covenant Abraham didn't have, consisted of Priestly Services designed to do two things, which was to lead them to their Christ.

#1. Administer God's Laws.

#2. Provide sacrificial "works" through a specific Levitical Priesthood for the atonement of sins. This "Covenant" was to be in force until "After those says", or as Paul describes "till the Seed should Come".

After that, Christ Himself will write His Laws on our hearts, no more Levite Priests to take "Moses Seat".

And He also promised "After those days" that He, Himself, will atone for our sins. No more Levite Priests to perform "works of the Law" for the atonement of sins.

All of this designed to create a new Man, and a Jew (God's Chosen People) from within.

Evidently, you evade the question. The question, relative to what Romans 2:28-29 which speaks of an inward Jew and an outward Jew, is "To whom did God made a covenant with during the time of Moses? Was it with the outward Jews or the inward Jews?". Don't you know if it's with the inward Jew or the outward Jew that God made a covenant with during the time of Moses? If you don't, just say so. There is no need to say so much just to avoid the question.

You say it's with the homeborn, including the stranger that chose to sojourn with them. Tell us who are these homeborn and who are the strangers? Can't you tell?   
Title: Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
Post by: Michael2012 on Mon Jan 13, 2020 - 04:55:38
Quote from: Michael
Are you under the law or not?
According to the context in which Paul used it, I hope I am Spiritually alive, not dead according to the Letter. (The wages of sin is death) If I am Spiritually dead, then I am under the Law.

You hope? Why, do you have doubts whether you are spiritually alive or dead?

And since you are hoping to be spiritually alive, you indirectly are saying that you are hoping to NOT be under the law. At least you correctly hope to be not under the Law. But let me tell you this, that perhaps, it will erase your doubts. Scriptures says that those who are in Christ, the believer that is, are NOT under the Law, but are under grace. 

Quote from: GB
Quote from: Michael
If you are under the law, would you say you will be judged by the law?
If I am still dead, I have already been judged by the Law. But if I am alive because of God's Grace, I can become a new man, and "Strive to enter" another path. One that respects God and Honors God with my body.

1 Cor. 6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? 20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.

In other words, you agree that one who is under the Law is judged by the Law. SO, we agree on that.

You said "If I am still dead, I have already been judged by the Law. But if I am alive because of God's Grace, I can become a new man, and "Strive to enter" another path." I understand and so take that when you say "dead" there in your statement, you refer to being dead in sin. Thus, before you were made alive because of God's grace, you were dead (in sin) first. And one who says they are alive because of God's grace, only means that they were saved from death or being dead. And saved from death as he already is by God's grace, by God's grace also he is made alive and  continue to live. Let me share to you the following scriptures:

John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. 

Now, he who was dead and now was made alive, is a new man. Not because he can of himself become a new man, but that because God had created him anew in righteousness and true holiness ~ he is born again. He is God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that he should walk in them.

Quote from: GB
Quote from: Michael
If you are under the law, would you say you are bound by the law?
If I am dead, which is what it means to be "Under the Law", then I am free from sin. The dead can not praise God. But if I am alive by God's Grace, then I am not my own. I am purchased with HIS Blood. My old self crucified with Him. Now I am a "servant" of the Christ of the Bible, running the race that is set before me, striving against sin, and striving to enter the Narrow Path. I am bound to the one whom I serve, as it is written.

You said "If I am dead, which is what it means to be "Under the Law", then I am free from sin." So if you are alive, what that means to you is that you are "NOT under the Law". Right? And so also, by what you say there, if you are "NOT under the law" then you are NOT free from sin. "NOT free" to me denotes slavery, being bound, confined as in the case of a prisoner. Won't you like to review and reconsider what you are saying there?

I suspect that there is something needed to be clarified in all of that. What do you mean by "dead" in your statement? Are you referring to being dead in sin as that spoken in Ephesians 2:1 or are you referring to being dead to sin as that spoken in Romans 6:2? 

Also, by implication, you are saying that one who serves the law (servant of the Law, so to speak) is bound by the law. I'd like to mention, and so be aware, at this point that the law we speak of here is the law of God which He gave to Israel when He took them out of Egypt. I get the impression by your answers so far, that you are not bound by the law because you said you are now a servant of Christ, so not a servant of the law.

Quote from: GB
Quote from: Michael
If you are under the law, if you keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, would you say you are guilty of all?
I am hopeful for the promises of the Christ in His Word.

1 John 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.

4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.

6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

So again you evade the issue question, that is, "If you are under the law, if you keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, would you say you are guilty of all?". Not one of the scriptures you quoted answers the question GB. The very simple question evidently is too hard for you to answer. It amazes me indeed. Let me help you have courage by sharing this scriptures:

James 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

There you go. The only thing left for you to do is believe and accept that. So when one speaks a lie, he is said to be guilty of breaking all, that is, he is also then guilty of breaking the 4th commandment, don't you agree? Some see that as unjust and unfair. How about you? Do you see it the same way? Now, you know fully well that any one who breaks even a single commandment of God is a sinner. Now, what scriptures say regarding this is:

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

I hope that at this point you now see the wisdom of God in His salvation and His grace in Christ. For scriptures says that there is no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus. Only in Christ are we not only saved, but even, securely saved. For even the believer, the Christians, who are still in their sinful flesh (the body of this death, as Paul speaks of it), do still fall into sin. But this problem had been taken cared of by Jesus Christ Himself, so that scriptures says there is no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus. That is not to suggest that we are free to deliberately sin. Of course not. Paul speaks a lot about this in Romans 6.

Quote from: GB
Quote from: Michael
If you are not under the law, would you say you are free from the law and are not bound by it?
If I was dead because I rejected His Laws, and by His Grace, He paid the penalty for my transgressions, why would I transgress God's Laws again and place Jesus to an open shame? I am not free from His instruction, I am freed from the death transgression of His Laws caused me.

Rom. 6:12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.

13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.

14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid. (That means NO! Michael)

16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

In other words, your answer is NO, that you are not free from the law. If you are not free from the law, then you know what that means, don't you? But concerning the Christian, according to Paul, he had been freed from the law.   

Quote from: GB
Quote from: Michael
If you are not under the law, how is it that you are not under it?
If I am not dead, it is because Jesus shed His Blood for me. But He didn't shed His Blood so I could reject His Laws again. At least according to the Christ of the Bible.

Again you really did not answer the question, but evaded it. It's a bad habit and cheap tactic of yours, I know.

GB, him who is not under the law, is not bound by the law. Now, those who are in Christ had been freed from the law and so not bound by it. They are no longer under the law, but are now under grace. Paul repeatedly said that in Romans 6. And again, that is not to suggest that we can deliberately sin. God forbid!

Title: Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
Post by: Michael2012 on Mon Jan 13, 2020 - 05:08:21
Quote from: Michael
You said this in one of your post.

James said "whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all."

Do you believe that? I know you'd say you do.

If you believe that, and you admit you are a sinner and have sin no doubt, then if you lie, aren't you then also guilty of all, including the 4th of the 10 commandments?
You are not my judge. You talk in circles in my opinion. You bounce all over the place most the time, in my opinion. You make the claim that I don't answer your questions "Properly" as an excuse to keep moving the bar, going to the next and the next and the next.

I'm sure you are leading to something here, I'm sure I'll find out soon enough. You say the Christ of the Bible isn't the "Restorer of Paths to walk in", yet you won't even show the basic curtsey of telling me, who in your religion is?

You just move to the next, to the next to the next. I don't know why I keep falling for your games here.

I am asking you asking a question , not judging you GB. You can't face the question as is evident in all that you have written there. So sorry for you.

The scriptures found in James 2:10 (For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.) shouts out this truth to you.   

Yes, I am leading to something there. That is, to tell the truth written in James 2:10 to you. That perhaps God may grant you repentance with regards your false belief on this. 
Title: Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
Post by: GB on Mon Jan 13, 2020 - 09:08:49
Quote
author=RB link=topic=74624.msg1055154574#msg1055154574 date=1578856011]
Not sure why I'm even posting to you and sinning against my conscience and the Lord, for it is nothing more than casting pearls before a swine. But since you are again lying and showing your deceitful spirit~it's hard to allow you to deceive others (if that is possible by your irrational and vain repetitious posts) and sit quietly without speaking out~ YET, knowing that it will go nowhere!  

So, prove that you are not lying by posting my several statements that you said I have said.

Sure Red.

Quote
He is the Lord of the Sabbath, and He gave us a new Lord’s Day~Sunday (Matthew 12:8).


I posted this several times along with the Scripture you claim makes your case.

Matt. 12:5 Or have ye not read in the law, how that on the sabbath days the priests in the temple profane the sabbath, and are blameless?

6 But I say unto you, That in this place is one greater than the temple.

7 But if ye had known what this meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice, ye would not have condemned the guiltless.

8 For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day.

Not only was Jesus talking about His Own Sabbath, created by HIM for man, there is not even a hint that He gave us a New Lord's Day.


So you are lying by saying you never preach that Jesus changed the Lord's day. And you are lying by deceiving folks that this verse is one where Jesus gives us a "new" Lord's Day.

You preach:
Quote
The Sabbaths as the Jews knew it and practice has been changed!

What you are cleverly and subtly leaving out is who changed it. Who gave us a "New Lord's Day"? You preach Jesus did, and you use Matt. 12 as your support. But the truth is religious man changed God's Sabbath, not God. And the Catholic gave us the New Lord's day, not Jesus.

There is not one place in the Bible where the Christ teaches that HIS Sabbath has changed, nor is there even one verse, Prophesy, implication, or even suggestion that Jesus Gave His People a New Lord's Day.

You are the one telling lies, not me.

Jesus said God's Sabbath was made for man. Yet you preach that Paul calls these Feasts that Jesus said were made for man "Beggarly Elements". Your quote. "Paul calls the Commandments of God "Beggarly Elements" in Gal. 4.".

I have posted this quote of yours as well, and asked you over and over how you could make such a claim given what the Scriptures actually say.

Gal. 4:8 Howbeit then, when ye knew not God, ye did service unto them which by nature are no gods.

9 But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?

How is it these men where following God's Commandments before they even knew Him?  The Feasts of the Christ are different than Pagan high days. Your preaching that Paul says in one breath, "Let us therefore keep the Feast", and in another "His Feasts are beggarly Elements" is just one of many of the loony winds of doctrine you peddle. And is another example of the hypocrisy of "many" who come in Christ's Name.

I am not your enemy, or the devil, or a heretic  because I show you these things. Although you are following perfectly the reaction of the Pharisees when God's Word corrected them.

I know Paul never called God's Commandments "Beggarly Elements" in Gal. 4, and I know Jesus didn't give the world a "New Lord's Day, Sunday, in Matt. 12.

So it is my duty to expose these things so others are not infected with the leaven your are promoting. I know you will not be corrected. Not by me, Moses, Paul, or God Almighty. I have stopped replying to your posts for your sake long ago. I do it now so that others may see the blatant difference between the religion you preach, and the Gospel of God that Paul obeyed from the heart.

Quote
I'm coming back with a verse by verse commentary on Isaiah's words, something that I have never seen you even attempted to do, and the reason why is that you have no spiritual light in you, pure and simple.

1 Cor. 5:6 Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump?

7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:

8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.

You need to get right with Gal. 4 and Matt. 12 because go any further.

Title: Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
Post by: GB on Mon Jan 13, 2020 - 10:22:53
@Amo, @GB

Moses is normally credited with composing the first 5 books of the Bible, but for all of Genesis he was not alive.

Please tell me regarding the stories in Genesis - creation/fall, Tower of Babel/ Noah etc - did:
a) Moses write down what had been passed down through the generations from Adam and Eve?
or 
b) Make it all up?

Gen. 6:5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

There is no written account of what God's Commandments, His Statutes, or His Laws were until Exodus. Yet the Holy Scriptures clearly say they existed. Your preaching that they didn't exist because God waited until Exodus to write them down is a religious doctrine made up by you.

The Commandment to Love thy neighbor as thyself was first written down in Lev. 19. So you would preach that such a commandment didn't exist until after the Exodus. Yet the Scriptures say;

1 John 3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

11 For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another.

12 Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous.

So your preaching that this Commandment didn't exist until Leviticus, because God didn't write it down, is a doctrine made up by you.

Gen. 18:19 For I know him, that he will command his children and his household after him, and they shall keep the way of the LORD, to do justice and judgment; that the LORD may bring upon Abraham that which he hath spoken of him.

Your preaching that God didn't have a "way", or that His Judgment didn't exist, or that God's Justice didn't exist until God had it wrote down in Exodus is made up by you.

Gen. 7:1 And the LORD said unto Noah, Come thou and all thy house into the ark; for thee have I seen righteous before me in this generation.

2 Of every clean beast thou shalt take to thee by sevens, the male and his female: and of beasts that are not clean by two, the male and his female.

There is not one mention of the creation of clean animals and unclean animals until Noah, and there was no written definition of the distinction until Leviticus. By your religious logic, the distinction between the two didn't exist until God had it written down. Yet not only did God create the distinction, but Noah knew what the difference was even though God didn't have it written down until years later.

Gen. 22:8 And Abraham said, My son, God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering: so they went both of them together.

These is not one place where God shared this Biblical truth in writing until centuries after Abraham offered his son. And yet Abraham knew of the Lamb God would provide.

All of these examples don't even compare to the Lord's Sabbath. Not only did God Create a 7 day week, but He blessed the 7th day and Sanctified it at creation. And when He had this Commandment written down, He actually references the creation of the 7th day and reminded folks that He Blessed it and Sanctified it. He didn't "Bless and Sanctify" it again in Exodus. You made that part up.

So I know God didn't write down that we are to Love Him with all our heart, or hate our brother without a cause, or tell us about the Lamb of God until Exodus, but there is evidence all over Genesis that His Laws, Commandments and Statutes existed. And He tells us of the sanctification of the 7th day at creation.

So I don't believe, because of all this evidence, that Abraham had God Commandments, Statutes and Laws, and that God shared with him about the Lamb of God, but not the 7th day He sanctified.

And I don't believe that Noah knew about God's Creation of clean and unclean animals, and his son's knew the commandment not to look at the nakedness of their father, but God didn't share that He sanctified and Blessed the 7th day at creation.

Jesus said we are live by "Every Word" of God. You are rejecting a lot of scripture here to support your religious doctrine that God's Blessing and sanctification of the 7th day only lasted 24 hours. Or that God's Commandments, Statutes, or Laws didn't exist because God hadn't written them down yet. And you have nothing from the Bible to support your claim here.

It's made up.





Title: Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
Post by: GB on Mon Jan 13, 2020 - 11:49:21
If you don't know what God's Laws are, you shouldn't be preaching as if you do.


Well, I thought I can see some kindness. Well....

I requested this for the purpose stated in my post, not because I don't know what God's laws are. But what I don't know is what you consider the law of God. If you want yourself to be understood, you owe anyone here, when asked, to tell them what they ask of you that would clarify what you mean to say. For example you speak of Sabbath. If one ask you for the definition of Sabbath or what Sabbath means to you for clarification so that he would understand what you are saying by it, should you not tell them, or should you rather ridicule their asking? You speak of God's law. If one ask you what you consider to be the law of God that He gave for all men to keep, for clarification, so the board can consider and examine them, should you not tell them, or should you rather ridicule their asking? Well that says a lot about you ....

I don't believe a man should listen to another man we don't even know for instruction in righteousness as this knowledge is to come from the Holy Scriptures, at least according to Jesus and Paul. Therefore, I post the Word's of the Sabbath giver, and let Him define His Laws and Sabbaths.

In this way, if you have a problem with the Law, your problem is with the Law giver and not with the messenger.






Title: Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
Post by: winsome on Mon Jan 13, 2020 - 13:11:42

It's made up.
OK,
I wonder why Moses didn't think to make up that God commanded men to keep a 7th day sabbath, or make up that men did keep a 7th day sabbath. 
Perhaps he knew the SDAs would make it up 3,000 years later!!.
Title: Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
Post by: GB on Mon Jan 13, 2020 - 13:39:10
 author=beam link=topic=74624.msg1055154580#msg1055154580 date=1578886959]
Quote
.
Very admiral of you. 
So, because you have studied for 25 years I am to take your word for telling me I am wrong for everything???  Come on brother/sister, telling me I am following the teachings of men, but then not explaining how I have done this is, at best,  very shallow.
The Jews to whom the 613 laws of the Sinai covenant was given to are the ones that have counted them and claim there were 613.  You were quick to tell me I am promoting a lie yet you didn't correct me with the truth.  I suppose you took the time to count all of them, so why not instead of intimidation just tell me what is  the truth.

I'm not sure of the wisdom in seeking out a random Jewish web site to learn the truth about God's Laws. And regardless of your dancing around, it is an absolute falsehood to preach to others that God Commanded Israel to keep 613 laws. It doesn't matter how many times to teach others, it was a lie before you started preaching it, it is a lie now, and it will still be a lie long after both you and I are gone.

I tell you this as a warning, as a help, as a brother. I would be glad to go to the list and show you the fallacy of this religious doctrine if your want. I thought you should know if you didn't.

Quote
You really need to know I am not buying anything you have written.  Where is the meat!!!  How about some facts instead of just blowing in the wind?

I have posted scriptures which lead me to doctrines I espouse and you ignore them as if I didn't even post them. You just shake your head. I guess to get your attention I must quote the teaching of some random Jewish web site.

Quote
Hogwash!  I have gone over each one trying to find one I needed to post.  www.jewfaq.org
The real sad thein is your coming on here and not adding anything to the debate except hot air.
Look friend I am near 85 years old and I am not about to waste my time adding up the defunct laws of the old covenant.  If you are not willing to give us the "real" facts then so be it.  It is not a matter of salvation anyway.  In fact, I think it was petty of you to bring it up in the first place, especially leaving us without what you say you have learned.

 At any rate, God did not command Israel to obey 613 laws, just as God didn't command that we can't take a walk on His Holy Sabbath and eat an apple. Both are Religious doctrines and traditions of man that we are warned about over and over.

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Jesus didn't come on the scene until His Birth.  It was the Word.   The Word was made flesh.

"Before Abraham was "I Am". Yes, He didn't come in the Flesh until His birth.


Quote
Ah ha! pretty sneaky.  Why did you leave out the best part.  You think others do not know scripture?  32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord: Now why would you do a thing like that?

What is sneaky is how you deflect from discussing the scriptures I posted. In these scriptures the Christ, before becoming a man in the person of Jesus, tells us exactly what HIS NEW Covenant is. There is nothing even remotely similar to the New Covenant you preach. You obviously don't know what the old covenant is, and you refuse to accept what the Christ Himself says New Covenant is.
 
 
Quote
Ha! I read your sneaky version.  Again, why would you want to such a thing?
Didn't you write that you have been studying scripture for 25 years and you have yet to realize that christians are under the new and better covenant?
Wrong, wrong and more wrong.  The Sabbath was given on tablets of stone at Mt. Sinai.  Paul, the ambassador of Jesus wrote in 2Cor 3:6-11 KJV that the 10 were done away.  No, not Mose face as you so like to think.  If you have any grasp of the English language you know when you read it that it was the 10 commandments.

In your religion, and the Catholic religion this is true, but not the Bible. God's Commandments are written on the hearts of His People. Jesus said "Think not that I come to destroy the Law and Prophets". Yet, that is the very foundation of your religion.

Quote
I will say one thing, you sure can twist scripture to fit your preconceived purpose.That is what you would like for it to say.  As I said above one must have a grasp of the English language to properly understand that it was the 10 he was referring.  Verse 7 says: 7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious.  It was not Mose face that was glorious.   Verse 8 says:8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious? 
  More glorious that Mose head?  You have to be kidding comparing Moses head with the Holy Spirit.  It doesn't fit now does it?  Verse 9 we read:  9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.  Where does Moses head fit into that equation?  Verse 10 says: 10 For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth.

The ministration of death was the Levitical Priesthood given to Israel by Moses.  In this Priesthood, there was a death required for the atonement of sins. Abraham had God's Laws, but this "covenant" wasn't ADDED until 430 years after him. This is Moses Seat that Jesus spoke of. The Duty of the Levite Priest was to give the people God's Laws, and provide for the atonement of sins through sacrificial "Works of the Law".

The New Covenant I showed you that the Christ promised, reveals that "after those days" Jesus Himself will administer God's Laws to the people, and Jesus Himself, will provide for the atonement of sins. There is no mention of God erasing, amending or destroying His 10 Commandments, only the manner in which they are administered, and the manner in which transgressions of them are atoned for.

Jesus became our High Priest as still performing the Spiritual Priesthood duties in heaven now. "Many" who come in Christ's Name, use this one verse to wipe out the Law and Prophets, and God's Commandments contained therein. Paul did not such thing.


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All Moses head did was to reflect the glory of the 10 commandments.  And then comes the clincher: 11   "Is" in the sentence present tense, "was" in the sentence is past tense.   Paul is telling us that the 10 commandments as Israel's guid has been replaced with the Holy Spirit as our guide.  25 years of study ahd you still do not have it all right.Did someone else help you to be hoodwinked or did you do it by yourself?

No, He is furthering the Christ's New Covenant. No longer are folks required to go to Moses Seat to hear about God, we can all go straight to His Word and hear His Word without the filter of religious men.. His Laws, which are good, just and spiritual, are here to guide us, that is why Jesus promised to write them on our hearts, not destroy them.

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Yes it WAS.  Jesus was born a man under the laws of the Sinai covenant.  Of course He honored those laws he was under.  A better covenant was on the horizon.

Jesus did not follow worthless Jewish Traditions. And He forgave sins while He was a man, without ever sprinkling a single drop of animal blood. He was the High Priest before they killed Him, the Sacrificial "works of the Law" were already growing old and ready to become obsolete. Jesus replaced the Levite with Himself, and took over the Priesthood duties. He did not remove the definition of sin. 

Religious men did that as Prophesied.
Title: Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
Post by: GB on Mon Jan 13, 2020 - 13:58:49
True, but religious men and religious traditions of men have been bad and evil through out the Bible. They think they are holy and just, but they are not. This is the very purpose of Col. 2. Paul is warning about being spoiled (made rotten) by the philosophy of men pushing traditions of men and rudiments of the world, and not of the Christ.

For instance, the Sabbaths and Commandments of the Bible are of the Christ. The Sunday Sabbath in the religions of the land, is a tradition of men. Paul is telling the true believers to know the difference, and not to let anyone convince them, or judge them for their voluntary humility towards the Holy Christ's Word's over the traditions of men, which will "parish with the using".


If you say that what I've written in my quoted post there is true, then you agree that what is said in verse 16 which has to do with eating, drinking, of holy days, new moons and even sabbath days, being a shadow of Christ, are not bad or evil.

If such things foreshadows Christ and are not bad or evil, but are good, why do you say they refer to traditions of men and rudiments of the world? Can these traditions of men and rudiments of the world you refer to, be said to be a shadow of things to come, the body of which is of Christ?

You are confused.

Paul is speaking of two things in Col. 2.

One is a warning about religious men and their Philosophy and traditions of men we are to beware of.

The other is the Good, Just and Spiritual Commandments of God which include His Holy Feasts and Sabbaths and creation laws such as clean and unclean animals.

 On the religious doctrines and traditions of men, Paul is rebuking them. But in the observances of God's Commandments, he is telling them to "Let no man judge them" in the voluntary humility in submitting to these ways of the Christ.

Traditions of men are shadows of nothing and are evil, according to God, especially if following them leads to transgression of God Commandments (Sin), the Christ's Feasts are shadows of His Salvation plan which begins with Passover.

The Jews, who were teaching for doctrines the commandments of men, placed restrictions and burdens on the people, through their own laws, that were against them, contrary to them.

21 (Touch not; taste not; handle not;

Jesus addressed some of these in the Scriptures. Like making it a sin against God to eat a piece of bread without first having washed the hands a certain way, or they made it a sin to take a walk in fellowship on His Holy Sabbath and pick an apple or ear of corn to eat.

These are traditions of men. While Passover and Feast of Unleavened bread, and HIS Sabbaths and Feasts are of the God of the Bible.

Title: Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
Post by: Michael2012 on Mon Jan 13, 2020 - 14:09:53
A perfect example of the false gospel according to those who twist the words of Paul unto the same. In this false gospel, God's law brings about death, not sin. Sin is and would be just fine, if it weren't for God's law. Which is of course the whole point of God's law. Sin is not just fine, it produces death, thus the law of God, to make sin exceedingly sinful. The spiritual, just, holy, good, and pure law of God is not the cause of death. It is the standard which points out the real cause of death, which is sin.

Rom 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet. 8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead. 9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. 10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death. 11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me. 12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good. 13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful. 14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

This is a perfect example of you arguing against a false gospel preaching straw man that you create. For I never said that sin is just fine.

You said "The spiritual, just, holy, good, and pure law of God is not the cause of death. It is the standard which points out the real cause of death, which is sin." Paul, in 2 Cor. 3 speaks of "the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones". What do you suppose Paul is referring to with that, if not the written law? Also Paul said "the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life." What do you suppose Paul refers to by "the letter", if not the written law?

When I said "So we can see by that, the law brings about wrath, condemnation, and death.", it is a mistake to understand it as me saying that the law is the cause of death. What I meant is that the law is that which condemns unto death. So Paul refers to it as being of the ministration of condemnation and ministration of death. And while sin is the cause of death or that one becomes dead because of sin, it is the law that condemns the sinner unto death. 

Quote from: Amo
The true gospel identifies sin as the killer, the false gospel identifies God's law as the killer. The true gospel calls for the abandonment of sin, the false gospel calls for the abandonment of God's law which even Paul says was ordained to life. It convicts of sin and leads the sinner to Jesus Christ who alone can save their lives, it is thereby ordained to life. Sin is the harbinger of death, not the law. The law was given to more emphatically point this truth out. To convict the sinner of guilt, lead them to their only savior from this guilt, and lift up the standard which all the saved should seek to uphold. The false gospel seeks instead to remove the standard which convicts of sin, points to Christ alone for salvation from sin, and maintains said standard as apart form sin. Which standard was perfectly fulfilled in the life and death of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

The gospel is not about identifying sin to be this or that, nor about identifying God's law. The gospel is all about Jesus Christ, period.

You said "The true gospel calls for the abandonment of sin, the false gospel calls for the abandonment of God's law which even Paul says was ordained to life." Of course the scriptures would not teach and does not teach the abandonment of God's laws. But it surely does teach that the covenant of God with Israel that He made at the time of Moses (which includes the covenantal commandments, statutes, ordinances, judgments), was done away with and replaced by a new covenant whose mediator is Jesus Christ. Those who are in Christ are under covenant with God, though not under the former (old) covenant, but under a new covenant. Concerning this new covenant, scriptures say that it is not according to the covenant that God made with Israel in the day when God took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt. It is a better covenant, established upon better promises, of a more excellent and glorious ministry. And indeed it is, for the new covenant is a ministration of the spirit, of righteousness and life, in contrast to the old covenant which Paul had refers to as  ministration of condemnation and death. Paul said the spirit gives life while the letter killeth.

While it is true that the law (commandments) was ordained to life, don't you know what Paul tells us concerning this? Paul said that he found the law (commandment) to be unto death. Do you want know how was that? Read Romans 7.

Quote from: Amo
Deu 4:1  Now therefore hearken, O Israel, unto the statutes and unto the judgments, which I teach you, for to do them, that ye may live, and go in and possess the land which the LORD God of your fathers giveth you. 2 Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you. 3 Your eyes have seen what the LORD did because of Baalpeor: for all the men that followed Baalpeor, the LORD thy God hath destroyed them from among you. 4 But ye that did cleave unto the LORD your God are alive every one of you this day. 5 Behold, I have taught you statutes and judgments, even as the LORD my God commanded me, that ye should do so in the land whither ye go to possess it. 6 Keep therefore and do them; for this is your wisdom and your understanding in the sight of the nations, which shall hear all these statutes, and say, Surely this great nation is a wise and understanding people. 7 For what nation is there so great, who hath God so nigh unto them, as the LORD our God is in all things that we call upon him for? 8 And what nation is there so great, that hath statutes and judgments so righteous as all this law, which I set before you this day? 9 Only take heed to thyself, and keep thy soul diligently, lest thou forget the things which thine eyes have seen, and lest they depart from thy heart all the days of thy life: but teach them thy sons, and thy sons' sons; 10 Specially the day that thou stoodest before the LORD thy God in Horeb, when the LORD said unto me, Gather me the people together, and I will make them hear my words, that they may learn to fear me all the days that they shall live upon the earth, and that they may teach their children. 11 And ye came near and stood under the mountain; and the mountain burned with fire unto the midst of heaven, with darkness, clouds, and thick darkness. 12 And the LORD spake unto you out of the midst of the fire: ye heard the voice of the words, but saw no similitude; only ye heard a voice. 13 And he declared unto you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform, even ten commandments; and he wrote them upon two tables of stone. 14 And the LORD commanded me at that time to teach you statutes and judgments, that ye might do them in the land whither ye go over to possess it.

Moses told Israel that God's commandments were unto life, to be a witness to the surrounding nations of God's righteousness, justice, and mercy. According to todays false gospel though, Paul corrected this apparent error on the part of Moses, and rightly called God's covenant and law the covenant or laws of death. One obscure statement from Paul nullifies all other biblical testimony to the contrary. So be it.

And who is saying, that Paul called God's covenant and law the covenant or laws of death? Again another straw man creation Amo? 

Perhaps you find Paul's statement as obscure, even while it isn't. What is obscure in the following? What can't you understand by those in bold fonts?

2 Cor. 3:6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:


Quote from: Amo
Deu 5:28 And the LORD heard the voice of your words, when ye spake unto me; and the LORD said unto me, I have heard the voice of the words of this people, which they have spoken unto thee: they have well said all that they have spoken. 29 O that there were such an heart in them, that they would fear me, and keep all my commandments always, that it might be well with them, and with their children for ever! 30 Go say to them, Get you into your tents again. 31 But as for thee, stand thou here by me, and I will speak unto thee all the commandments, and the statutes, and the judgments, which thou shalt teach them, that they may do them in the land which I give them to possess it. 32 Ye shall observe to do therefore as the LORD your God hath commanded you: ye shall not turn aside to the right hand or to the left. 33 Ye shall walk in all the ways which the LORD your God hath commanded you, that ye may live, and that it may be well with you, and that ye may prolong your days in the land which ye shall possess.

It just doesn't sound like a covenant of death to me.

Of course it's not a covenant of death. Who says it is a covenant of death?

Quote from: Amo
Deu 30:1 And it shall come to pass, when all these things are come upon thee, the blessing and the curse, which I have set before thee, and thou shalt call them to mind among all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath driven thee, 2 And shalt return unto the LORD thy God, and shalt obey his voice according to all that I command thee this day, thou and thy children, with all thine heart, and with all thy soul; 3 That then the LORD thy God will turn thy captivity, and have compassion upon thee, and will return and gather thee from all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath scattered thee. 4 If any of thine be driven out unto the outmost parts of heaven, from thence will the LORD thy God gather thee, and from thence will he fetch thee: 5 And the LORD thy God will bring thee into the land which thy fathers possessed, and thou shalt possess it; and he will do thee good, and multiply thee above thy fathers. 6 And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live. 7 And the LORD thy God will put all these curses upon thine enemies, and on them that hate thee, which persecuted thee. 8 And thou shalt return and obey the voice of the LORD, and do all his commandments which I command thee this day. 9 And the LORD thy God will make thee plenteous in every work of thine hand, in the fruit of thy body, and in the fruit of thy cattle, and in the fruit of thy land, for good: for the LORD will again rejoice over thee for good, as he rejoiced over thy fathers: 10 If thou shalt hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to keep his commandments and his statutes which are written in this book of the law, and if thou turn unto the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul. 11 For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not hidden from thee, neither is it far off. 12 It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it? 13 Neither is it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it? 14 But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it. 15 See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil; 16 In that I command thee this day to love the LORD thy God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commandments and his statutes and his judgments, that thou mayest live and multiply: and the LORD thy God shall bless thee in the land whither thou goest to possess it. 17 But if thine heart turn away, so that thou wilt not hear, but shalt be drawn away, and worship other gods, and serve them; 18 I denounce unto you this day, that ye shall surely perish, and that ye shall not prolong your days upon the land, whither thou passest over Jordan to go to possess it. 19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live: 20 That thou mayest love the LORD thy God, and that thou mayest obey his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto him: for he is thy life, and the length of thy days: that thou mayest dwell in the land which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.

So strange, all this talk by God about obeying His laws and statutes and the better and abundant life that He will give to those who do such. How have "Christians" of today turned such into a covenant of death? Why is that which even Paul said was ordained unto life, turned into a covenant of death by so many "Christians" today? Are they not wrongly dividing the word of God?

Again, who is saying that the old covenant is a covenant of death? Your created straw man?

Quote from: Amo
Eze 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die. 5 But if a man be just, and do that which is lawful and right, 6 And hath not eaten upon the mountains, neither hath lifted up his eyes to the idols of the house of Israel, neither hath defiled his neighbour's wife, neither hath come near to a menstruous woman, 7 And hath not oppressed any, but hath restored to the debtor his pledge, hath spoiled none by violence, hath given his bread to the hungry, and hath covered the naked with a garment; 8 He that hath not given forth upon usury, neither hath taken any increase, that hath withdrawn his hand from iniquity, hath executed true judgment between man and man, 9 Hath walked in my statutes, and hath kept my judgments, to deal truly; he is just, he shall surely live, saith the Lord GOD.

Why does God's word keep promising life to those who would obey His laws which "Christians" today call the covenant or ministry of death?

As is found in the scriptures you quoted, it is said "I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing". Now, concerning life and blessing, they are to keep ALL of God's commandments always and continue in it. And concerning death and curse, if they fail to do that. Evidently, as the inspired writer of Hebrews pointed out, there is a problem with the old covenant that there is need for a new. Not with God nor with God's law, but with them. They fail and always fail to continue in the covenant. So, we find Paul saying that the law/commandment, which was ordained to life, "I found to be unto death". For to fail in the covenant means death and curse.

Also, consider what we can learn from Paul, that there isn't a law given which could have given life, else righteousness should have been by the law. 

Quote from: Amo
Eze 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him. 21 But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die. 22 All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live. 23 Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord GOD: and not that he should return from his ways, and live? 24 But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die. 25 Yet ye say, The way of the Lord is not equal. Hear now, O house of Israel; Is not my way equal? are not your ways unequal? 26 When a righteous man turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die. 27 Again, when the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive. 28 Because he considereth, and turneth away from all his transgressions that he hath committed, he shall surely live, he shall not die. 29 Yet saith the house of Israel, The way of the Lord is not equal. O house of Israel, are not my ways equal? are not your ways unequal? 30 Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, saith the Lord GOD. Repent, and turn yourselves from all your transgressions; so iniquity shall not be your ruin. 31 Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel? 32 For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye.

Sin causes death, not God's law. God's law was and is ordained unto life. Its purpose is to lead the sinner to Christ and uplift the standard which all in Christ should seek to uphold within their lives, as their Lord and Savior Jesus Christ did on their behalf as one of us. That which many "Christians" of today proclaim to be the covenant or ministry of death according to their misapplication of the words of Paul, scripture testifies to be unto life many times over. They preach a gospel of abolishing the law which was ordained unto life, instead of abolishing sin which produces death.


I have already addressed this in the other segments above so I will not repeat myself here.

I just like to say this here, I have pointed out in the segment immediately above, that they fail and always fail to continue in the covenant. Do you want to know why? Read Romans 7.

Quote from: Amo
Jas 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. 15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

Sin brings forth death, not God's law. The law was added that sin might become exceeding sinful, to the effect that God's own would turn away from such unto the Holy and Blameless Lamb of God who died for their sins, Jesus Christ. Our sins caused His death, not the law of God. Turn from the former, and embrace the latter as the new standard of your life as lived out and exemplified in the life and death of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. Praise His Holy name.

I agree that one of the reasons why the law was added, is so that sin, might appear sin and by the law/commandment, might become exceedingly sinful. This is so that they would see and recognize sin, and have knowledge of sin, and come to realize that they are sinful and how sinful they are, so that they might be brought to repentance. And with that, the law serves as their schoolmaster to bring them unto Christ, that they might be justified by faith.
Title: Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
Post by: GB on Mon Jan 13, 2020 - 14:16:26


The question "Tell us where is the narrow gate that you strive to enter?" Clearly, what I am asking is the gate, not the path.

And I have to say, be careful in saying "I'll let the Christ answer this for you.", making it appear that what you say is in fact what Christ says.

It seems to me that while you say and claim "I am striving to enter the narrow gate.", you can't even point to us where the narrow gate you refer to is. How can you enter a gate which you don't know?

I posted HIS Word's. He is the gate.

Duet. 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

20 That thou mayest love the LORD thy God, and that thou mayest obey his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto him: for he is thy life, and the length of thy days: that thou mayest dwell in the land which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.

Matt. 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:

25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.

26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:

27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.

So as the scriptures teach; "Examine yourself"

1 Cor. 11:27 Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.

28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup.

29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.

30 For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.

31 For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged.

And whose judgment shall we use? Whose Word's do we listen to? Shall we follow the "many" in the religions of the world, or should we follow the examples set forth in His Word? Shall we look to the Pope, or Oral Roberts? Or shall we look to Jesus the Author of our faith?

John 6:62 What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?

63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.








Title: Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
Post by: RB on Mon Jan 13, 2020 - 14:44:37
Sure Red.


I posted this several times along with the Scripture you claim makes your case.

Matt. 12:5 Or have ye not read in the law, how that on the sabbath days the priests in the temple profane the sabbath, and are blameless?

6 But I say unto you, That in this place is one greater than the temple.

7 But if ye had known what this meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice, ye would not have condemned the guiltless.

8 For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day.

Not only was Jesus talking about His Own Sabbath, created by HIM for man, there is not even a hint that He gave us a New Lord's Day.


So you are lying by saying you never preach that Jesus changed the Lord's day. And you are lying by deceiving folks that this verse is one where Jesus gives us a "new" Lord's Day
GB, listen very carefully, since you have a serious reading comprehension or writing, not sure~here is WHY I said I never said what YOU said that I said.
Quote from: : GB Reply #209 on: Yesterday at 10:07:22
While it is true there is nowhere in the Bible where the Holy Sabbath of the Lord, was changed from the 7th to the 1st day, as you preach.
Reading this it would come across to others that I believe that nowhere in the bible the Jewish Sabbath was not trumped by the Lord's day. Either your reading comprehension is elementary level, or, your writing is also on an elementary level, or at least not much above either. Maybe here you can make it much clearer as to what you meant by your statement in the quote box. Maybe you should have left these words off in your statement...again:
Quote
While it is true there is nowhere in the Bible where the Holy Sabbath of the Lord[/color][/b], was changed from the 7th to the 1st day, as you preach.
Do you see why I said what I said? It is because of your inability to make yourself plain, or, you are being deceitful in your writing~I'll give you credit for just being inexperienced in debating.

Now, I DO BELIEVE that the Lord's day which is the FIRST day of the week TRUMPS the Jewish Sabbath day. Question for you: What did the apostle John mean when he said that he was in the Spirit ON THE LORD'S DAY?
Title: Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
Post by: RB on Mon Jan 13, 2020 - 15:07:29
"Before Abraham was "I Am". Yes, He didn't come in the Flesh until His birth.
Immanuel was NOT conceived, Jesus the Son of God was. Come here and debate me on this subject: http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/seventh-day-adventist-forum-(sda)/michael-the-archangel-one-who-is-god/ God was NOT BORN~Mary did NOT give birth to God, but God's Son.
Title: Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
Post by: Michael2012 on Mon Jan 13, 2020 - 22:09:06
Quote from: Michael
Well, I thought I can see some kindness. Well....

I requested this for the purpose stated in my post, not because I don't know what God's laws are. But what I don't know is what you consider the law of God. If you want yourself to be understood, you owe anyone here, when asked, to tell them what they ask of you that would clarify what you mean to say. For example you speak of Sabbath. If one ask you for the definition of Sabbath or what Sabbath means to you for clarification so that he would understand what you are saying by it, should you not tell them, or should you rather ridicule their asking? You speak of God's law. If one ask you what you consider to be the law of God that He gave for all men to keep, for clarification, so the board can consider and examine them, should you not tell them, or should you rather ridicule their asking? Well that says a lot about you ....
I don't believe a man should listen to another man we don't even know for instruction in righteousness as this knowledge is to come from the Holy Scriptures, at least according to Jesus and Paul. Therefore, I post the Word's of the Sabbath giver, and let Him define His Laws and Sabbaths.

In this way, if you have a problem with the Law, your problem is with the Law giver and not with the messenger.

Nobody is saying that a man should listen to another man for instruction in righteousness.

You speak of Sabbath and of God's law. I merely wanted to know what in scriptures you consider as speaking of God's law which you say that He gave for all men to keep, for clarification. So I am not asking for your opinion, but exactly for scriptures. So, if even that you can't or don't want to do, the reason is obvious.

The problem is with you and never not with God. As others also had commented, you seem to have some reading and comprehension issues.
Title: Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
Post by: Michael2012 on Mon Jan 13, 2020 - 22:16:56
Quote from: Michael
The question "Tell us where is the narrow gate that you strive to enter?" Clearly, what I am asking is the gate, not the path.

And I have to say, be careful in saying "I'll let the Christ answer this for you.", making it appear that what you say is in fact what Christ says.

It seems to me that while you say and claim "I am striving to enter the narrow gate.", you can't even point to us where the narrow gate you refer to is. How can you enter a gate which you don't know?
I posted HIS Word's. He is the gate.

See, you are able to read and comprehend, and give a proper answer. Thank you. I hope you keep that up.

So, yes Jesus Christ is the gate. And who ever enters that gate is said to be in Christ, right? Now, why do you say you strive to enter the gate, that is, Jesus Christ? Haven't you entered yet and are not yet in Christ? By the way, do you know how to enter the gate?

Title: Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
Post by: 4WD on Tue Jan 14, 2020 - 05:14:16
By the way, do you know how to enter the gate?
Do you?
Title: Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
Post by: GB on Tue Jan 14, 2020 - 07:42:12
GB, listen very carefully, since you have a serious reading comprehension or writing, not sure~here is WHY I said I never said what YOU said that I said.Reading this it would come across to others that I believe that nowhere in the bible the Jewish Sabbath was not trumped by the Lord's day.

 Either your reading comprehension is elementary level, or, your writing is also on an elementary level, or at least not much above either. Maybe here you can make it much clearer as to what you meant by your statement in the quote box. Maybe you should have left these words off in your statement...again:Do you see why I said what I said? It is because of your inability to make yourself plain, or, you are being deceitful in your writing~I'll give you credit for just being inexperienced in debating.

Now, I DO BELIEVE that the Lord's day which is the FIRST day of the week TRUMPS the Jewish Sabbath day. Question for you: What did the apostle John mean when he said that he was in the Spirit ON THE LORD'S DAY?

LOL, I see you are deflecting from your preaching that Jesus gave us a "New Lord's Day" in Matt. 12. Of course you did, you got caught telling another Windy. You must save face.

Below are just 3 of your quotes, if I look I know I could find many others. I will if you want, we both know your religion regarding God's Sabbath,. You make it pretty clear that you are preaching Jesus Changed the reverence and Holiness He, as the Creator Christ of the Bible, attributed to the 7th day of the week, and moved it to the first day of the week.


Quote
He is the Lord of the Sabbath, and He gave us a new Lord’s Day~Sunday (Matthew 12:8).

The Sabbaths as the Jews knew it and practice has been changed!

I DO BELIEVE that the Lord's day which is the FIRST day of the week TRUMPS the Jewish Sabbath day.

Now I also know, by the example the Christ had written for me in His Word, that you will say I have a devil, or am a heretic, or a dog for exposing what you preach.

The Christ, as the Word of God, was not a Jew, His Sabbaths are not Jewish Sabbaths.

Lev. 23:2 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, Concerning the feasts of the LORD, which ye shall proclaim to be holy convocations, even these are my feasts.

3 Six days shall work be done: but the seventh day is the sabbath of rest, an holy convocation; ye shall do no work therein: it is the sabbath of the LORD in all your dwellings. 4 These are the feasts of the LORD, even holy convocations, which ye shall proclaim in their seasons.

I know you believe the Catholic High Days, created by the Priests of Constantine, trump the Christ's Feasts. I know you preach the Christ's Sabbath changed and I know you preach Jesus replaced it, or rendered is subject to the Catholic high day.

And you are free to preach this if you want. But this preaching is not from the Word's of the Bible. That is the point here. You are furthering a gospel that neither the Law and Prophets taught, nor Jesus, nor even one of His Apostles. You take one verse and are willing to use it to wipe out everything written about the Christ's Sabbaths in order to justify your religion.

The Pharisees did the same thing Red. They took one scripture and used it as justification to murder the only truly perfect human being ever born. Not on purpose Red, they thought they were serving God. They were deceived, which means they believed things about God that were not true.

You are deceived Red. Which is OK, we are all deceived at some point, God says so. The problem is staying in this condition even when the deception has been exposed.

You don't want to discuss Matt. 12, because you know it doesn't teach what your attribute to it. You refuse to even acknowledge your statement about Paul calling God's Commandments "Beggarly Elements" in Gal. 4, because you now know you are preaching lies about this verse.

You are trapped between deception and humiliation. To admit your error in front of others would cause humiliation you are not willing to endure. So you choose deception to save face.

The Mainstream preachers of Christ's Time did the same thing.

 In your case, it would be "should I admit what I now know is true, that Paul did not call God's Commandments "Beggarly Elements" in Gal. 4, and that Jesus didn't give us a "new Lord's Day" in Matt. 12. And suffer the public humiliation that this dog, this no-body, this putrid nothing, with no Moody Bible school degree, or any "learning" from our precious religious franchises, corrected me"?

Or shall I take the path of the Pharisees and work to deflect from the teaching and belittle and ridicule this little nobody?

Red, the following is according to "Every Word which proceeds from the mouth of God";

The Christ did not give man a "New Lord's Day", just as He didn't give man Good Friday or Halloween. But He created, sanctified and Blessed the 7th Day, and placed the Commandment to honor it among 10 of the most influential Laws ever created in the history of the planet. There was a reason why the Christ did this.

God's Sabbath is not a Jewish Sabbath. The Jews did not honor God's Sabbaths. Zechariahs and Simeon did, but the Pharisees and Levite Priests did not. To Preach that the Christ created, sanctified and Blessed the 7th day only for men of a certain DNA is a deception that has snared "many" who come in Christ's Name. It is a lie to say God's Sabbath is a Jewish Sabbath.

Paul did not call God's Commandments "Beggarly Element" ever, even once in the entire Bible. This is a lie, flat out, designed by religious men to deceive folks into believing Paul hates God's Laws and much as they do. It is not true that Paul called God's Commandments "Beggarly Elements", yet that is exactly what you preach.

Don't hide yourself from your own flesh Red. You don't have to preach these falsehoods.

Don't be a Pharisee Red, be a Nicodemus.


Title: Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
Post by: GB on Tue Jan 14, 2020 - 11:03:06
author=Michael2012 link=topic=74624.msg1055154587#msg1055154587 date=1578912938]
Quote
According to the context in which Paul used it, I hope I am Spiritually alive, not dead according to the Letter. (The wages of sin is death) If I am Spiritually dead, then I am under the Law.

You hope? Why, do you have doubts whether you are spiritually alive or dead?

Rom. 8:24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?

25 But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.

I know Eve was convinced she was all set as do you and "many" who come in Christ's Name. But Eve was deceived. This is an example written for my admonition, used for doctrine, correction, and instruction in righteousness. You are convinced Jesus isn't the "Repairer of the Breech". Just because you are convinced of something, doesn't make it truth.

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And since you are hoping to be spiritually alive, you indirectly are saying that you are hoping to NOT be under the law. At least you correctly hope to be not under the Law. But let me tell you this, that perhaps, it will erase your doubts. Scriptures says that those who are in Christ, the believer that is, are NOT under the Law, but are under grace.


Scriptures say a lot of things. Like "Not everyone who calls Me Lord, Lord, shall enter the Kingdom of heaven". So just because you are convinced Jesus is your Lord, doesn't make it so.

Matt. 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.



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If I am still dead, I have already been judged by the Law. But if I am alive because of God's Grace, I can become a new man, and "Strive to enter" another path. One that respects God and Honors God with my body.

1 Cor. 6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? 20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.

In other words, you agree that one who is under the Law is judged by the Law. SO, we agree on that.

No, you are cleaver in your little gotcha games and all, and I am bored so I'll play your games for the exercise for a little longer, but you are mis-representing my belief here. If I am already spiritually dead, the law has already judged me. It is not still judging me because the dead are not judged any longer. "For he that is dead is freed from sin." The Law only judges those who are alive.

16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

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You said "If I am still dead, I have already been judged by the Law. But if I am alive because of God's Grace, I can become a new man, and "Strive to enter" another path." I understand and so take that when you say "dead" there in your statement, you refer to being dead in sin. Thus, before you were made alive because of God's grace, you were dead (in sin) first. And one who says they are alive because of God's grace, only means that they were saved from death or being dead. And saved from death as he already is by God's grace, by God's grace also he is made alive and  continue to live. Let me share to you the following scriptures:

John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. 

Now, he who was dead and now was made alive, is a new man.

Maybe? "If I continue in His Goodness", otherwise I shall be cut off.

Maybe? "if I depart from iniquity", otherwise Jesus doesn't even know me.

Maybe? "if" I keep His Commandments.

I can "Put on the New Man", I can "Strive to enter a certain gate", I can "put on the Armor of God", I can look for the "Escapes" God gives me in every temptation. "I can not let disobedience to God reign in my mortal body", I can "resist the devil".

These are all things a man who is alive can do to overcome in this life. A dead man can do none of these things.

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Not because he can of himself become a new man, but that because God had created him anew in righteousness and true holiness ~ he is born again. He is God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that he should walk in them.

Jesus doesn't "deny Himself for us". Jesus doesn't "continue in His Goodness" for us. Jesus doesn't "put on the New Man" for us. Jesus doesn't "Depart from iniquity" for us. He raises us up a "New Man", who can made new choices, and who can "serve righteousness" instead of serve sin. Jesus doesn't "serve Righteousness for us" He doesn't "Walk in the good works foreordained by God that we should walk in them"  for us.

Matt. 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:

Jesus doesn't "Do them" for us.

Yes, "many" who come in Christ's Name preach just that. That we are raised from the dead and are not obligated to do anything. Jesus does it all for us. But this is one of the many religions Jesus and His Prophets and Disciples warned to stay away from.


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If I am dead, which is what it means to be "Under the Law", then I am free from sin. The dead can not praise God. But if I am alive by God's Grace, then I am not my own. I am purchased with HIS Blood. My old self crucified with Him. Now I am a "servant" of the Christ of the Bible, running the race that is set before me, striving against sin, and striving to enter the Narrow Path. I am bound to the one whom I serve, as it is written.

You said "If I am dead, which is what it means to be "Under the Law", then I am free from sin." So if you are alive, what that means to you is that you are "NOT under the Law". Right? And so also, by what you say there, if you are "NOT under the law" then you are NOT free from sin. "NOT free" to me denotes slavery, being bound, confined as in the case of a prisoner. Won't you like to review and reconsider what you are saying there?

I am bound. I am a servant to whom I obey. You aren't. In your religion you are "Free from God's Laws". But according to the Scriptures, all of them, we are free from the wages of sin, not the definition of sin.

I am not ashamed of the Scriptures Michael. I'm fine with being a New Man, and this time a servant to righteousness, instead of a servant to transgression of God's Laws.
 
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I suspect that there is something needed to be clarified in all of that. What do you mean by "dead" in your statement? Are you referring to being dead in sin as that spoken in Ephesians 2:1 or are you referring to being dead to sin as that spoken in Romans 6:2? 

Eph. 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

These are people who are snared by the religions of the land. "Children of Disobedience". So when I see a person who is furthering a religion which rejects God's commandments, I know these folks are not alive, but dead. Because if they were alive, they would be "walking" in the "good works" God before ordained that they should walk in them, not preach to the world that there are "free" from them.

Romans 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?

2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

Same definition as Eph. 2.

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Also, by implication, you are saying that one who serves the law (servant of the Law, so to speak) is bound by the law.

It depends on what Law you are talking about here. If you are talking about the Levitical Priesthood the Jews were pushing, with it's "works of the Law" for justification of sins, that God "ADDED" to His existing Law "Till the Seed should come", then no, I don't serve that "ADDED" Law. I serve the Christ who promised of a Covenant "after those days" when HE would atone for my sins with His own Blood. I am justified by Faith, not by the Levitical Priesthood sacrificial "works of the Law"  That Law was changed and Jesus is now my High Priest.

But if you are talking about the definition of sin, the two greatest Commandments and all that defines them (Law and Prophets) then I am absolutely bound by them. Aren't you?

 I mean "Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

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I'd like to mention, and so be aware, at this point that the law we speak of here is the law of God which He gave to Israel when He took them out of Egypt. I get the impression by your answers so far, that you are not bound by the law because you said you are now a servant of Christ, so not a servant of the law.

How can I be a servant of the Christ, and not "DO" what He instructs? I can say I'm a servant of Christ. I can have a I heart Jesus bumper sticker on my car, a WWJD bracelet on my wrist. But if I "practice disobedience to God's Laws" He doesn't even know me. At least this is what the Christ of the Bible teaches.


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So again you evade the issue question, that is, "If you are under the law, if you keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, would you say you are guilty of all?". Not one of the scriptures you quoted answers the question GB. The very simple question evidently is too hard for you to answer. It amazes me indeed. Let me help you have courage by sharing this scriptures:

James 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

There you go. The only thing left for you to do is believe and accept that. So when one speaks a lie, he is said to be guilty of breaking all, that is, he is also then guilty of breaking the 4th commandment, don't you agree? Some see that as unjust and unfair. How about you? Do you see it the same way? Now, you know fully well that any one who breaks even a single commandment of God is a sinner. Now, what scriptures say regarding this is:

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

I don't evade your question Michael. I answered it perfectly. Here, let me answer it again, this time so even a child can understand the reason for my hope.

I am hopeful of the promises of the Christ.

1 John 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not.

This is the goal of the New Man. We are children learning obedience to the Father. The first thing we are told, "don't disobey the Father".

But if we slip, if we don't see the escape from the temptation, if we drop the shield of the Armor of God, if we mess up like children do, have faith.

And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

So if I break one, I break them all. That is why we are to "Strive against sin". Transgressing God's Laws is very, very bad. We are told "don't do it". But if we do, if we fall down, get back up and run the race that is set before us.

3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.

This is how we know God writes His Commandments on our hearts, if we keep them.

4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

Paul warns of these religious men, who come in His Name, as does Jesus. If they aren't honoring and "laboring" to walk in the "good works" God before Ordained that we should walk in them, the are still dead in their sins.

5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.

It is in this obedience that we are humbled, that we learn, that we are strengthened. God's Love, His Commandments, are perfected in us when we walk in them, not when we reject them.

6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

We are on a journey, that is Paul was and I am.

Paul, a former Pharisee, explains my heart better than I can.

Phil. 3:8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,

His religion, his friends, his own religious traditions. I don't think you really know what humiliation Paul suffered when the Christ showed him that the religion he and his family and fathers had followed for centuries, with teaching for doctrines the Commandments of men, were not from God, but from the devil. He was so zealous, so convinced he was a good Child of Abraham. But he was deceived. That's a tough pill for any religious man to swallow.

9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

Paul used to take a turtle dove to the Levite Priest, according to the "ADDED" Law given by Moses on Mt. Sinai, to cleanse him of his sins and make him righteous. And his religious brethren after the flesh, were still relying on the "priesthood "Works of the Law" for cleansing their unrighteousness. But he learned that no man is justified by "works of the law", and that his brethren, after the flesh, were not obeying God, but their own religious traditions.


10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;

11 If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.

Paul also lived in hope, as I do.

12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.

Paul stumbled as well. He knew he wasn't yet perfected, but he continued to strive to this end.

13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,

14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.

15 Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.

So there is a detailed answer, using much the same scriptures you ignored, only this time I explained so even a child can understand.

I will address the rest  on another post
Title: Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
Post by: GB on Tue Jan 14, 2020 - 11:07:44

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I hope that at this point you now see the wisdom of God in His salvation and His grace in Christ. For God's Grace allowed these believers to escape the bondage of man made religions, just as those converted in Gal. 4. But the pull and power of religious tradition is strong and Paul has to stay on them.

20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,

21 (Touch not; taste not; handle not;

22 Which all are to perish with the using;) after the commandments and doctrines of men? (NOT GOD as "many" who come in His Name, falsely preach)


And in Col. 2:16, after spending several verses explaining God had "destroyed" the "certificate of debts expressed in decrees," metaphorical for the old Law, he exhorts the readers not to tolerate anyone presuming to sit in judgment over them in regard to the old festivals and holy days, explicitly including "Sabbaths."


scriptures says that there is no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus.

And scriptures also say that not everyone who says they are in Christ Jesus, are in Christ Jesus.

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Only in Christ are we not only saved, but even, securely saved.


"IF" you do as He says, otherwise you are not "securely saved".

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For even the believer, the Christians, who are still in their sinful flesh (the body of this death, as Paul speaks of it), do still fall into sin.

Falling in disobedience to God's Laws, and rejecting God's Laws are two completely different things.


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But this problem had been taken cared of by Jesus Christ Himself, so that scriptures says there is no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus. That is not to suggest that we are free to deliberately sin. Of course not. Paul speaks a lot about this in Romans 6.

What is "deliberate" sin? Is that an action where a person looks at a Commandment of God, but then rejects it outright?

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If I was dead because I rejected His Laws, and by His Grace, He paid the penalty for my transgressions, why would I transgress God's Laws again and place Jesus to an open shame? I am not free from His instruction, I am freed from the death transgression of His Laws caused me.

Rom. 6:12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.

13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.

14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid. (That means NO! Michael)

16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

In other words, your answer is NO, that you are not free from the law.

The answer to your question was just given by Paul. He is the one who is preaching when we become alive, we have the same choice we had before. Who are we to yield our self to obey? The first time we chose "another voice. shall we make the same choice after Jesus paid the price for our first mistake? God forbid.

It isn't me who is telling you we are not free from God's Definition of Sin, His definition of Good, and His definition of righteousness. It is Paul. And I believe him even if you don't.

If I am dead, I am free from His law. But if I'm alive by HIS Grace, I am not free from His Law. Well, in the religions of the land I am free from His law. But Paul, when he was made alive, "served the Law of God in his mind".

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If you are not free from the law, then you know what that means, don't you? But concerning the Christian, according to Paul, he had been freed from the law.

No, that is a deception of the ancient religious traditions of the land. Paul never teaches that were are free from God's Commandments. We are free from death, free from sin. But we are not free from God's Instructions. Paul teaches just the opposite.

16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?


   
If I am not dead, it is because Jesus shed His Blood for me. But He didn't shed His Blood so I could reject His Laws again. At least according to the Christ of the Bible.


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Again you really did not answer the question, but evaded it. It's a bad habit and cheap tactic of yours, I know.

GB, him who is not under the law, is not bound by the law. Now, those who are in Christ had been freed from the law and so not bound by it. They are no longer under the law, but are now under grace. Paul repeatedly said that in Romans 6. And again, that is not to suggest that we can deliberately sin. God forbid!

You are furthering ancient religious traditions of men, not what Paul teaches in Romans 6.

Rom. 6:18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

He doesn't say you free from God's Commandments, you made that part up.


Rom. 6:22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.

He doesn't say free from God's Instructions, Laws, Commandments at all. You are making that part up.

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Now, those who are in Christ had been freed from the law and so not bound by it.

This is a deception Michael. And ancient religious doctrine of the religions of the land. Paul does not even imply this teaching in Rom. 6, or anywhere else.
Title: Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
Post by: GB on Tue Jan 14, 2020 - 11:30:48
OK,
I wonder why Moses didn't think to make up that God commanded men to keep a 7th day sabbath, or make up that men did keep a 7th day sabbath. 
Perhaps he knew the SDAs would make it up 3,000 years later!!.

It's perfectly normal and expected that you would reject and ignore every scripture and the arguments they raise about your religion which preaches that God's Blessing and Sanctification of the 7th day of the week only lasted 24 hours. Or that a Law of God doesn't exist until He writes it down.

It's seems you might have actually consider the Holy scriptures, and what they teach given you asked the question. Instead you ignore them and make foolish statements about this religious franchise or that religious franchise. I don't care about SDA, I don't promote their religion. My posts have nothing to do with them, you are just deflecting because, as this post clearly shows, you are not here to actually discuss scripture, rather, you are here to justify your own religious franchise over another.



Title: Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
Post by: winsome on Tue Jan 14, 2020 - 14:07:38
It's perfectly normal and expected that you would reject and ignore every scripture and the arguments they raise about your religion which preaches that God's Blessing and Sanctification of the 7th day of the week only lasted 24 hours. Or that a Law of God doesn't exist until He writes it down.
You seem to specialise in making straw men arguments by claiming someone said something they didn't or distorting what said. 
 
God's blessing of something lasts as long as the thing that is blessed, or until God withdraws his blessing from it. 
 
God blessed the seventh day of creation week. Scripture does not say that he blessed every 7th day after that.
 
Fact 1. Scripture does not say God blessed every 7th day
Fact 2. Scripture does not record God telling anyone to keep a 7th day sabbath until Ex 16:23-30
Fact 3. Scripture does not record anyone keeping a 7th day sabbath until Ex 16:23-30
 
 

It's seems you might have actually consider the Holy scriptures, and what they teach given you asked the question. Instead you ignore them and make foolish statements about this religious franchise or that religious franchise. I don't care about SDA, I don't promote their religion. My posts have nothing to do with them, you are just deflecting because, as this post clearly shows, you are not here to actually discuss scripture, rather, you are here to justify your own religious franchise over another.
Making such a silly rant and referring to 'religious franchises' does nothing for your credibility.
 
Title: Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
Post by: RB on Tue Jan 14, 2020 - 15:53:26
LOL, I see you are deflecting from your preaching that Jesus gave us a "New Lord's Day" in Matt. 12. Of course you did, you got caught telling another Windy. You must save face.
Quote from: The Wise man
Proverbs 26:4~Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest thou also be like unto him.
We have learned that fools like you do not deserve answers. I should save myself the pain, trouble, and waste of time dealing with you by ignoring your saucy, stupid, or scornful post. I keep asking myself why I do not take the high road of truth and wisdom, and stop stooping to your haughty insolence and lazy ignorance. Answers are not a right to anyone~they are a privilege only for those meeting conditions for the love of the truth, and humbleness

I KNOW that it is wrong to debate with fools. They do not deserve knowledge or truth. Wisdom is too precious to waste on them. Wise men have better uses of their time. And arguing is a fleshly lust, for the most part. For these reasons, it is a sin to debate with men like you who do not clearly display godly character and conduct and a love for God's precious truth.  If I continue debating you and men like you, all I'm doing is honoring your foolish ignorance.

I should only say enough to shut your mouths, (and have many times over) but anything more is folly and sin (Proverbs 26:5). You deserve no honor (Proverbs 26:1). Men with truth do not back down from any, but it has no obligation to waste its time on any, either. You are not concerned with truth~I asked you a question above and as usual, made no attempt to address it.
Quote from: RB on: Yesterday at 14:44:37
Question for you: What did the apostle John mean when he said that he was in the Spirit ON THE LORD'S DAY?


Title: Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
Post by: RB on Wed Jan 15, 2020 - 03:56:54
Quote from: The Wise man
Proverbs 26:5~Answer a fool according to his folly, lest he be wise in his own conceit.

As we said above fools do not deserve truth or the honor of a kind answer (Proverbs 17:16; 26:1). They will mock your good words, and/or they will pervert them to slander you and will build a strawman and debate him as though they are defending the truth (Matthew 7:6). The general rule is to avoid fools and not answer them (Proverbs 14:7; 23:9). But before you leave them, God says to silence their babbling lest they get puffed up by you ignoring them.

Fools think and speak contrary to God, truth, and wisdom~they live by the god that they have created in their own hearts and say and teach what they do based on the fact if they were God this is what we would teach and say. A wise man must shut their mouths, lest they presume their thoughts are acceptable or right. Even then one is very seldom successful! If a fool is not rebuked, he will become conceited in his error and turn into a scorner (Proverbs 26:12). Before his case is utterly hopeless, and truth lies mangled in the mud, it is good to ridicule his foolish ideas just as Elijah did to the prophets of Baal. 

Fools vary in religious sects, and education and intelligence. Great fools write books, teach at the university level, work in the media, or preach on Sunday. They espouse and defend sodomy, protect abortion, condemn corporal and capital punishment, etc., etc. Little fools worship the great fools.

All these fools must be shut up. Do not expect them to receive truth or wisdom. God has turned them over to reprobate minds (Romans 1:18-28). They cannot recognize truth, even if it shines daily from the sun and nightly from the stars and moon (Psalms 19:1-6). If you encounter one, let him know he is wrong in no uncertain terms, and then avoid him.

You meet fools every day. Foolishness abounds in America, partly because no one will speak out against it. When fools say or do something foolish, it is your prudent duty and blessed privilege to correct them with truth. But after you shut their mouths, you must ignore them, lest you cast pearls before swine and give holy things to dogs (Matthew7:6).

Our Lord Jesus was a master at shutting fools’ mouths. He was the best, and He was unmerciful to their fallacies and heresies. He supernaturally (because he was God manifest in human flesh, a doctrine that GB rejects) discerned their foolish thoughts, and He would turn their carefully planned questions upside down. When He was through, they could not answer, nor did they want to ask any more questions (Matthew 22:15-46), but we are not him, so it comes a time when we must leave them to their own depraved hearts and fleshly wisdom, which is from beneath and not of God but is earthly and devilish, per.....
Quote from: The apostle James
James 3:15~"This wisdom descendeth not from above, but is earthly, sensual, devilish."




Title: Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
Post by: RB on Wed Jan 15, 2020 - 04:33:45
Quote from: The apostle John
Revelation 1:10~"I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,
WHAT DAY OF THE WEEK IS THE LORD'S DAY is of great importance to the Christian religion of Jesus Christ. The Holy Spirit called a certain day of the week the Lord's day, and this should be observed carefully by lovers of the truth.

It is very clear that the Lord's day was NOT the Jewish Sabbath day, which was now abolished, for the Jewish Sabbath day is never refer to as the Lord's day, never~ and had John meant that, he would have said on the sabbath day. It is very clear that our Lord rosed from the dead on the FIRST DAY of the week, that is without controversy, at least it should be~so,  the first day of the week is here designed as the Lord's day; and is so called just as the ordinance of the supper is called the Lord's supper, being instituted by the Lord, and the Lord's table, ( 1st Corinthians 10:21; 11:20 )..... and that because it was the day in which our Lord rose from the dead as we just mentioned See and consider: Mark 16:9; and in which he appeared at different times to his disciples, (John 20:19 John 20:26), and which the apostles themselves set apart for service, and on which they met together to hear the word, and attend on ordinances, and lay asides money for the poor brethren and their needs See and consider: Acts 20:7; 1st Corinthians 16:1.

We see in Revelation one that John was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ and could not join with the saints in the public worship of that day; yet he was employed in spiritual contemplations and exercises, on a particular day he called the Lord's Day, which could not have been just been any day of the week and still be called the LORD'S DAY.
Title: Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
Post by: GB on Wed Jan 15, 2020 - 10:14:26
We have learned that fools like you do not deserve answers. I should save myself the pain, trouble, and waste of time dealing with you by ignoring your saucy, stupid, or scornful post. I keep asking myself why I do not take the high road of truth and wisdom, and stop stooping to your haughty insolence and lazy ignorance. Answers are not a right to anyone~they are a privilege only for those meeting conditions for the love of the truth, and humbleness

I KNOW that it is wrong to debate with fools. They do not deserve knowledge or truth. Wisdom is too precious to waste on them. Wise men have better uses of their time. And arguing is a fleshly lust, for the most part. For these reasons, it is a sin to debate with men like you who do not clearly display godly character and conduct and a love for God's precious truth.  If I continue debating you and men like you, all I'm doing is honoring your foolish ignorance.

I should only say enough to shut your mouths, (and have many times over) but anything more is folly and sin (Proverbs 26:5). You deserve no honor (Proverbs 26:1). Men with truth do not back down from any, but it has no obligation to waste its time on any, either. You are not concerned with truth~I asked you a question above and as usual, made no attempt to address it.

I am questioning your preaching, just as Jesus questioned the Mainstream preachers of His Time, and just as we are also tasked with "testing the spirits".

And like them, you are offended and angered that I would dare question someone who is as righteous as you have convinced yourself you are. And work, as they did, to discredit anyone who would dare question you. I have come to expect nothing different from you.

Your refusal to answer for your own statements is typical of religious men through out the Bible. And your name calling and ridicule of those who would point them out is also exactly how the Jews responded to those whose who would dare question their self appointed superiority.

In all this, what is important is to point out the obvious Biblical Truth that Jesus didn't give us a New Lord's day in Matt. 12, or Rev. 1, and Paul never called God's Commandments "Beggarly Elements" EVER.

 You are furthering religious doctrines which are untrue. You don't care? That's fine, neither did those preachers of Christ's time. But it's my duty to point these falsehoods out.

I show you these things because I thought you would want to know. Apparently not.



 




Title: Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
Post by: GB on Wed Jan 15, 2020 - 10:55:51
 author=RB link=topic=74624.msg1055154667#msg1055154667 date=1579084425]
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WHAT DAY OF THE WEEK IS THE LORD'S DAY is of great importance to the Christian religion of Jesus Christ. The Holy Spirit called a certain day of the week the Lord's day, and this should be observed carefully by lovers of the truth.

It is very clear that the Lord's day was NOT the Jewish Sabbath day, which was now abolished, for the Jewish Sabbath day is never refer to as the Lord's day, never~

Ex. 20:10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:

Lev. 23:2 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, Concerning the feasts of the LORD, which ye shall proclaim to be holy convocations, even these are my feasts.

3 Six days shall work be done: but the seventh day is the sabbath of rest, an holy convocation; ye shall do no work therein: it is the sabbath of the LORD in all your dwellings.

4 These are the feasts of the LORD[/u], even holy convocations, which ye shall proclaim in their seasons.

Mark. 2:27 And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath: 28 Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath.

Is. 58:13 If thou turn away thy foot from the sabbath, from doing thy pleasure on my holy day; and call the sabbath a delight, the holy of the LORD, honourable; and shalt honour him, not doing thine own ways, nor finding thine own pleasure, nor speaking thine own words:

Again, You say there is no place in the Holy scriptures where God's Holy Sabbath is call the Lord's day. But when we read God's Word it is clear that the Sabbath of the Bible is the "Sabbath of the Lord".

1 Cor. 10:20 But I say, that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to devils, and not to God: and I would not that ye should have fellowship with devils.

21 Ye cannot drink the cup of the Lord, and the cup of devils: ye cannot be partakers of the Lord's table, and of the table of devils.

Nothing about Jesus giving us a "New Lord's Day".

1Cor. 11:19 For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you.

20 When ye come together therefore into one place, this is not to eat the Lord's supper.

21 For in eating every one taketh before other his own supper: and one is hungry, and another is drunken.

Again, nothing about Jesus giving us a "New Lord's Day".

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and that because it was the day in which our Lord rose from the dead"

In all 4 accounts Jesus had already rose from the dead and was gone before anyone got there. You have no Biblical proof that Jesus rose from the dead on Sunday. It is ancient catholic doctrine.

God knew the day Jesus would rise from the dead before He created the 7 day week. He Blessed and Sanctified the 7th day and called it the "Lord's Sabbath" throughout the Bible.

You have nothing Red, no Prophesy of God promising to create a "New Lord's Day". No mention by Jesus of Him changing or creating a "New Lord's Day".

You have nothing but one or two verses that do not say what you attribute to them, just as you attribute to Paul things he never said.

So given that Jesus is said to be the Creator God of the Law and Prophets, and given all things were created by Him. And given the 7th Day was created, it is not arguable that Jesus, before becoming a man, created the 7th Day Sabbath. It is said to be HIS Sabbath, or the "Sabbath of the Lord" as it is written in your Bible.

So your statement "for the Jewish Sabbath day is never refer to as the Lord's day, never" is another in a long line of religious doctrines you preach that are contrary to what the Scriptures really say.

"Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath".

The Catholic High Days do not trump the Lord's Sabbaths Red. In your religion, yes, but not according to the Word's of the Christ.

Title: Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
Post by: winsome on Wed Jan 15, 2020 - 14:08:14
@GB.
I think you are not comparing like with like.

I haven't done an exhaustive check on this but (using the KJV):

In the Old Testament:
the word translated as LORD (in capitals) is YHWH
the word translated as Lord (not all capitals) is Adoni
the word translated as God is Elohim.

Therefore in passages such as Ex 20:10 and Lev 23:4, LORD refers to YHWH.

In the New Testament, in the gospel of John (and his letters):
the word translated as Lord is kurios
the word translated as God is theos

John seems to use kurios for people addressing Jesus.

In Rev 1 John uses  kurios for the Lord's day.

It would therefore seem reasonable to conclude that by the Lord's day John is referring to Jesus not YHWH.
Title: Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
Post by: RB on Thu Jan 16, 2020 - 04:33:45
Ex. 20:10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou, shalt not do any work thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
GB, I'm going to use your golden calf that you worship and prove to you that the Sabbath day and the Lord's day are two different days, not as you vainly declared:
Quote from: GB on: Yesterday at 10:55:51
Again, You say there is no place in the Holy scriptures where God's Holy Sabbath is call the Lord's day. But when we read God's Word it is clear that the Sabbath of the Bible is the "Sabbath of the Lord".

1 Cor. 10:20 But I say, that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to devils, and not to God: and I would not that ye should have fellowship with devils.

21 Ye cannot drink the cup of the Lord, and the cup of devils: ye cannot be partakers of the Lord's table, and of the table of devils.

Nothing about Jesus giving us a "New Lord's Day".

1Cor. 11:19 For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you.

20 When ye come together therefore into one place, this is not to eat the Lord's supper.

21 For in eating every one taketh before other his own supper: and one is hungry, and another is drunken.

Again, nothing about Jesus giving us a "New Lord's Day".
Before I start you need to learn how to debate and refute other's arguments to give your position some credibility, or at least some proof that you are sincere in searching after the truth, which in all of your many posts you have not shown that to be so~that is, being sincere in searching and trying the spirits. It's hard to sit by and not answer a man who is full of vain words and full of talk without any substance backing him.
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Job 11:2~"Should not the multitude of words be answered? and should a man full of talk be justified?"
Your mouth which is full of vain talk is nothing more than you recycling the same of verbiage over and over again! You live in a very small area of the scriptures and even there you do not know your way around, but you show yourself to be more confused than a country boy from Georgia walking the street of New York City during rush hour!

If we read the four gospel's accounts of the Lord's burial and resurrection, it is VERY CLEAR that the women who went to the grave to add sweet spices to his body went AFTER THE JEWISH SABBATH which was a REST day for all of them. Consider:
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Matthew 28:1~"In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre."
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Mark 16:9~"And when the sabbath was past, Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James, and Salome, had bought sweet spices, that they might come and anoint him. And very early in the morning the first day of the week, they came unto the sepulchre at the rising of the sun. And they said among themselves, Who shall roll us away the stone from the door of the sepulchre? And when they looked, they saw that the stone was rolled away: for it was very great. And entering into the sepulchre, they saw a young man sitting on the right side, clothed in a long white garment; and they were affrighted. And he saith unto them, Be not affrighted: Ye seek Jesus of Nazareth, which was crucified: he is risen; he is not here: behold the place where they laid him. But go your way, tell his disciples and Peter that he goeth before you into Galilee: there shall ye see him, as he said unto you. And they went out quickly, and fled from the sepulchre; for they trembled and were amazed: neither said they any thing to any man; for they were afraid. Now when Jesus was risen early the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom he had cast seven devils."
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Luke 24:1~"Now upon the first day of the week, very early in the morning, they came unto the sepulchre, bringing the spices which they had prepared, and certain others with them."
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John 20:1~"The first day of the week cometh Mary Magdalene early, when it was yet dark, unto the sepulchre, and seeth the stone taken away from the sepulchre."
Now, GB, we have all four witnesses from each gospel writer~let us see if the Jewish Sabbath and the first day of the week in WHICH THE SCRIPTURES ARE CLEAR as to when Jesus arose from the dead are even connected or that the scriptures carefully separated the Jewish Sabbath from the day in which Jesus triumphantly arose from the dead.  Mark's accounts leave NO DOUBT as to THE DAY in which Jesus rose from the dead, for he clearly said:
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Mark 16:9~Now when Jesus was risen early the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom he had cast seven devils."
The Jewish Sabbath day which was the SEVENTH DAY is not the day in which Jesus rose from the grave PER THE TESTIMONY of the word of God. I'm just getting started~the scriptures tells us that Jesus was in the grave for THREE NIGHTS and THREE FULL DAYS~and AFTER three nights and three days he rose from the dead which could ONLY have been on the FIRST DAY OF THE WEEK! I'll wait for you to consider the four gospels and from them PROVE that Jesus rose on the Jewish Sabbath day. The first day of the week is the Lord's day in the sense in which John used that phrase.
Title: Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
Post by: GB on Thu Jan 16, 2020 - 08:42:16
@GB.
I think you are not comparing like with like.

I haven't done an exhaustive check on this but (using the KJV):

In the Old Testament:
the word translated as LORD (in capitals) is YHWH
the word translated as Lord (not all capitals) is Adoni
the word translated as God is Elohim.

Therefore in passages such as Ex 20:10 and Lev 23:4, LORD refers to YHWH.

In the New Testament, in the gospel of John (and his letters):
the word translated as Lord is kurios
the word translated as God is theos

John seems to use kurios for people addressing Jesus.

In Rev 1 John uses  kurios for the Lord's day.

It would therefore seem reasonable to conclude that by the Lord's day John is referring to Jesus not YHWH.

I appreciate what you are saying. I have heard of the religious doctrine which attempts to divide the Christ from God in order to promote ancient religious high days.

The problem with this doctrine, in my view, are the scriptures which tell us plainly, that Jesus was the creator God of the Bible who became Flesh. That all that was created, which would include the 7 day week, was created by the Christ who became a man. "Was with God and was God", "I and My Father are one", "What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before". etc.

Col. 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

So to keep the post short I won't post all the scriptures which teach us that Jesus, before becoming a man, created the 7 day week and Blessed and Sanctified it. He created the swine, that He sent the evil spirits into, unclean. He created Passover and Pentecost and called them "Holy Convocations". As a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient unto death".

Is there another Lord?

Is. 45:5 I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:

6 That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else.

7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.


So given this scriptural evidence it would seem that when the Bible says "Lord of the Sabbath", or "Sabbath of the Lord", it is speaking to the Same Lord and the same Sabbath.

Rev. 1:10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet.

Given what the scriptures teach regarding this Lord, and His Creation, how can this be talking about some other Lord, or some other Lord's Day?

What if it's religious man who created the "New Lord's Day", and John was speaking about the same Day Jesus said HE is the Lord of?

Religious traditions are a powerful force in this world, and we are warned over and over about them.

These topics are good for men to discuss.









Title: Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
Post by: GB on Thu Jan 16, 2020 - 10:29:14
 author=RB link=topic=74624.msg1055154704#msg1055154704 date=1579170825]
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GB, I'm going to use your golden calf that you worship and prove to you that the Sabbath day and the Lord's day are two different days, not as you vainly declared:

I don't worship the day Red, I Honor the creator of it. I am simply posting scriptures which define the "Sabbath of the Lord". You are promoting the "sabbath of the Pope". You are angry because the scriptures don't support your Sabbath, but they do support the "Sabbath of the Lord".




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Before I start you need to learn how to debate and refute other's arguments to give your position some credibility, or at least some proof that you are sincere in searching after the truth, which in all of your many posts you have not shown that to be so~that is, being sincere in searching and trying the spirits. It's hard to sit by and not answer a man who is full of vain words and full of talk without any substance backing him. Your mouth which is full of vain talk is nothing more than you recycling the same of verbiage over and over again! You live in a very small area of the scriptures and even there you do not know your way around, but you show yourself to be more confused than a country boy from Georgia walking the street of New York City during rush hour!


Yes, well you are entitled to your opinion. But I think you should consider what "vain" really means. Teaching to the world that Paul called the Commandments of God "Beggarly Elements", that is "Vain deceit" Red. All your deflection, miss-direction doesn't change the fact that you are preaching something about God's Word that isn't true.

I am well versed in the Scriptures, it's the catholic doctrines you promote that I have trouble with.


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If we read the four gospel's accounts of the Lord's burial and resurrection, it is VERY CLEAR that the women who went to the grave to add sweet spices to his body went AFTER THE JEWISH SABBATH which was a REST day for all of them. Consider: Now, GB, we have all four witnesses from each gospel writer~let us see if the Jewish Sabbath and the first day of the week in WHICH THE SCRIPTURES ARE CLEAR as to when Jesus arose from the dead are even connected or that the scriptures carefully separated the Jewish Sabbath from the day in which Jesus triumphantly arose from the dead.  Mark's accounts leave NO DOUBT as to THE DAY in which Jesus rose from the dead, for he clearly said: The Jewish Sabbath day which was the SEVENTH DAY is not the day in which Jesus rose from the grave PER THE TESTIMONY of the word of God. I'm just getting started~the scriptures tells us that Jesus was in the grave for THREE NIGHTS and THREE FULL DAYS~and AFTER three nights and three days he rose from the dead which could ONLY have been on the FIRST DAY OF THE WEEK! I'll wait for you to consider the four gospels and from them PROVE that Jesus rose on the Jewish Sabbath day. The first day of the week is the Lord's day in the sense in which John used that phrase.

Yes Red, in all 4 gospels those disciples and followers of the Christ kept HIS Sabbath Holy even after HIS death. Of course they did. It is the "Sabbath of the Lord".

And in all 4 Gospels they didn't go to the Grave until the Sabbath was over, at sundown Saturday night.

And in all 4 gospels, the stone was moved, Jesus has raised from the dead, and He was gone, all before they even got there.

The Mark verse you quote, depending on where the comma is inserted, contradicts Mark's own words at the beginning of the chapter.

Now when Jesus was risen early the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom he had cast seven devils.

or

Now when Jesus was risen, early the first day of the week he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom he had cast seven devils.

In Mark's account, depending on where one places a coma, that wasn't there to begin with, this verse can be made to even contradict Marks own statements in the beginning of the chapter.

When Mary got there, early Sunday morning, He was already gone.

Mark 16: 6. And he saith unto them, Be not affrighted: Ye seek Jesus of Nazareth, which was crucified: he is risen; he is not here: behold the place where they laid him.



Matt. 28: 1 In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre.

6 He is not here: for he is risen, as he said. Come, see the place where the Lord lay.

Already raised from the dead and gone.

Luke 24:1 Now upon the first day of the week, very early in the morning, they came unto the sepulchre, bringing the spices which they had prepared, and certain others with them.

2 And they found the stone rolled away from the sepulchre.

3 And they entered in, and found not the body of the Lord Jesus.
 
Already raised from the dead and gone.

John 20:1 The first day of the week cometh Mary Magdalene early, when it was yet dark, unto the sepulchre, and seeth the stone taken away from the sepulchre.

2 Then she runneth, and cometh to Simon Peter, and to the other disciple, whom Jesus loved, and saith unto them, They have taken away the Lord out of the sepulchre, and we know not where they have laid him.

In every case, early Sunday morning HE was already risen.

That week Passover was on Wednesday. He was killed Wed. afternoon and taken down from the cross before the High Sabbath . (First Day of Unleavened Bread) which begins sundown on Passover. The Disciples Honored this Feast which was on a Thursday, the bought and prepared spices on Friday, and rested from Friday night sundown to Saturday night sundown. Jesus was in the grave 3 days and 3 nights.

Wed. night, Thur. night, Fri. night.

Thur. Fri, Sat.

He rose Saturday night, just before sundown. No one saw Him because they were home Honoring His Holy Sabbath. Right after the Sabbath, while it is yet dark, they ran to the grave and He was already gone.

In every Gospel He was already gone by early Sunday