Author Topic: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.  (Read 7528 times)

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Offline Hobie

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Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
« on: Wed May 22, 2013 - 05:38:47 »
Nowhere in the scriptures do you find one word which sanctions Sunday worship, you can search in the Old as well as the New Testament there is nothing. The word Sunday itself is not found in the Bible, you only see the number of the days so that it is clear what day is which. In the New Testament the first day of the week is mentioned eight times. In none of the eight instances is the first day said to be a day of worship, never is it said to be the Christian substitute for Sabbath, and neither do the texts suggest that the first day of the week should be regarded as a memorial of Christ's resurrection. Lets look in this study by Kenneth Strand, 'The Sabbath in Scripture and History'  at each of the eight New Testament passages that mention the first day of the week.

Matthew 28:1, "After the sabbath, as the first day of the week was dawning, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary went to see the tomb. And suddenly there was a great earthquake...." Jesus was crucified on Friday. He rested in the tomb over the Sabbath and rose early on Sunday morning. The verse indicates that the women disciples returned to the tomb at the very first opportunity after the death and burial of Jesus. Because the Sabbath came so soon after His burial, they could not approach the tomb again until after sundown on Sabbath evening.(The Sabbath began at sundown on the sixth day and ended at sundown on the seventh day; compare Lev. 23:32; Neh. 13:19; Mark 1:21, 32) Early Sunday morning was the most convenient time for them to visit the tomb.

Mark 16:1, 2, "When the sabbath was over, Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James, and Salome bought spices, so that they might go and anoint him. And very early on the first day of the week, when the sun had risen, they went to the tomb."Mark records the same events as Matthew with the additional information that the women visited the tomb early on the Sunday morning for the express purpose of anointing Jesus' body with spices.

Mark 16:9, "Now after he rose early on the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, from whom he had cast out seven demons."This verse simply records that, after His resurrection early on the Sunday morning, Jesus appeared to Mary Magdalene.

Luke 23:54 * 24:1, "It [the day of Jesus' death and burial] was the day of Preparation, and the sabbath was beginning. The women who had come with him from Galilee followed, and they saw the tomb and how his body was laid. Then they returned, and prepared spices and ointments. On the sabbath they rested according to the commandment. But on the first day of the week, at early dawn, they came to the tomb, taking the spices that they had prepared." The Sabbath came a few hours after Jesus' death on the cross. The women disciples "rested the sabbath day according to the commandment" (Luke 23:56, KJV). Then very early in the morning of the first day they visited the tomb to anoint the body of Jesus. The fact that they observed the Sabbath rest is sufficient indication that Jesus had never attempted to change the day or to suggest that after His death the first day would replace the Sabbath. Writing years after the event, Luke gave not the slightest hint that, even though the women disciples of Jesus observed the Sabbath, such a practice was no longer expected of Christians. He simply recorded that the Sabbath day "according to the commandment," which Jesus' followers were careful to observe, was the day after the crucifixion day (Friday), and before the resurrection day (Sunday).

John 20:1, "Early on the first day of the week, while it was still dark, Mary Magdalene came to the tomb and saw that the stone had been removed from the tomb."Mary Magdalene visited the tomb early the first day of the week. Nothing is said of Sunday as a day of worship or rest.

John 20:19, "When it was evening on that day, the first day of the week, and the doors of the house where the disciples had met were locked for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood among them and said,'Peace be with you.'" On the evening of the first day of the week the disciples were assembled behind locked doors "for fear of the Jews." Jesus appeared to them at that time. The passage does not say that henceforth Sunday was to be the day for worship. Since it was the evening of the first day of the week that Jesus appeared to the disciples, it was after sundown. According to Jewish reckoning this was actually the beginning of the second day (Monday; compare Gen. 1:5, 8). A week later when Thomas happened to be present, Jesus met with the disciples again (verse 26). But, writing years later, John records nothing regarding Sunday as a day of Christian worship. John's narrative gives no warrant for regarding Sunday as a substitute for the Sabbath or as a day to be distinguished by Christians above any other day of the week. And there is no indication in the passage that Sunday should ever be observed as a memorial of Christ's resurrection.

Acts 20:7, "On the first day of the week, when we met to break bread, Paul was holding a discussion with them; since he intended to leave the next day, he continued speaking until midnight."Since the meeting was held at night on the first day of the week, it may have been Saturday night.

According to Jewish reckoning, the Sabbath ended and the first day of the week began at sundown of the seventh day. If it were Sunday evening, the event gives no suggestion that Sunday should be observed as a day of worship. The following verses record that Paul preached a sermon on Thursday. The next day after the meeting recorded in Acts 20:7 (Monday), Paul and his party set sail for Mitylene (Acts 20:13, 14). The following day (Tuesday) they arrived opposite Chios (verse 15). The next day (Wednesday) they passed Samos (verse 15), and the day after that (Thursday) they arrived at Miletus (verse 15). The elders of the church of Ephesus met Paul at Miletus, and he preached to them (Acts 20:16-36). Because a Christian service was held on Thursday, do we conclude that Thursday is a day for regular Christian worship replacing the observance of the seventh-day Sabbath? A religious service on Sunday, Thursday, or any other day certainly did not make that day a replacement for the seventh-day Sabbath or a day of regular Christian worship and rest. There is no special significance in the disciples breaking bread at this first-day meeting, for they broke bread "daily" (Acts 2:46). We are not told that it was a Lord's Supper celebration, nor are we told that henceforth Sunday should be the day for this service to be conducted. To read Sunday sacredness or Sunday observance into Acts 20:7 is to do violence to the text.

1 Corinthians 16:1, 2, "Now concerning the collection for the saints: you should follow the directions I gave the churches of Galatia. On the first day of every week, each of you is to put aside and save whatever extra you earn, so that collections need not be taken when I come. And when I arrive, I will send any whom you approve with letters to take your gift to Jerusalem."These verses may be literally translated from the Greek as follows: "And concerning the collection for the saints, as I instructed the churches of Galatia, so also you do. On the first day of the week let each of you place (or 'lay') by himself, storing up whatever he might be prospered, so that when I come there might be no collections." (Italics supplied.) The phrase "by himself" (par' heauto), followed by the participle "storing up" or "saving" (thesaupizon), rules out the possibility that this is a reference to an offering taken up in a worship service. The Christian believer was to check his accounts on Sunday and put by at home the money that he wished to give to Paul for the support of the church. When Paul arrived, then the offerings of each individual would be collected.

None of these eight New Testament references to the first day of the week (Sunday), provides any evidence that Jesus or His disciples changed the day of worship from the seventh to the first day. Nor is the first day of the week represented as a time to memorialize the resurrection of Christ. Whatever  significance was given to Sunday in the later history of the church, it had no basis in the teaching or practice of Jesus and His apostles and is not sanctioned in Scripture. Jesus instructed His disciples to observe the Sabbath after His death and Jesus and the apostles kept the seventh-day Sabbath and instructed others to do likewise, so it wasn't changed by them. The record of the book of Acts establishes that the apostles consistently kept the Sabbath day as a time for worship and fellowship. So the origin of the change to Sunday worship is from another source.. it never was sanctioned in any way in scripture.

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Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
« on: Wed May 22, 2013 - 05:38:47 »

Offline DaveW

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Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
« Reply #1 on: Wed May 22, 2013 - 06:05:44 »
While what you say is true; there is also not one word forbidding using the first day of the week as a day of worship (or the 3rd or the 5th for that matter)

So unless you are using a seventh day version of the Church of Christ's CENI hermenutic where scriptural silence = scriptural prohibition; I would submit that trying convince and strong arm the Sunday folk into believing they are sinning is wrong.

As to the Acts 20 passage, what was being celebrated there was Havdalah. (separation) It marks the change from Sabbath to the work week. It was a popular gathering in the first century Messianic Jewish congregations.

Offline winsome

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Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
« Reply #2 on: Wed May 22, 2013 - 07:42:54 »
Jesus instructed His disciples to observe the Sabbath after His death

The record of the book of Acts establishes that the apostles consistently kept the Sabbath day as a time for worship and fellowship.

Please  provide evidence for these two statements.


Paul himself did not tell anyone to keep the Sabbath. It seemed to be a matter of indifference to him:

"Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day—things which are a mere shadow of what is to come, but the substance belongs to Christ." (Col 2:17-19).

Note that he says “Therefore let no one pass judgment on you”

He also says:
"For one person considers one day more important than another, while another person considers all days alike. Let everyone be fully persuaded in his own mind. Whoever observes the day observes it to the Lord" (Rom. 14:5–6).

Note also his final comment "Whoever observes the day [whichever he chooses] observes it to the Lord". It is not about a Jewish Law but about Jesus.

Offline MeMyself

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Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
« Reply #3 on: Wed May 22, 2013 - 08:13:42 »
While what you say is true; there is also not one word forbidding using the first day of the week as a day of worship (or the 3rd or the 5th for that matter)

So unless you are using a seventh day version of the Church of Christ's CENI hermenutic where scriptural silence = scriptural prohibition; I would submit that trying convince and strong arm the Sunday folk into believing they are sinning is wrong.

As to the Acts 20 passage, what was being celebrated there was Havdalah. (separation) It marks the change from Sabbath to the work week. It was a popular gathering in the first century Messianic Jewish congregations.

 ::smile::


Offline winsome

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Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
« Reply #4 on: Wed May 22, 2013 - 10:47:16 »
While what you say is true; there is also not one word forbidding using the first day of the week as a day of worship (or the 3rd or the 5th for that matter)

So unless you are using a seventh day version of the Church of Christ's CENI hermenutic where scriptural silence = scriptural prohibition; I would submit that trying convince and strong arm the Sunday folk into believing they are sinning is wrong.


Also I think there is nothing in scripture commanding worship on the Sabbath (at least in the Pentateuch).

There is a lot about rest and two mentions that it is the sign of the Covenant, but nothing that I can find about worshipping on the Sabbbath.

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Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
« Reply #4 on: Wed May 22, 2013 - 10:47:16 »



Offline DaveW

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Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
« Reply #5 on: Wed May 22, 2013 - 12:07:14 »
Quote
Also I think there is nothing in scripture commanding worship on the Sabbath (at least in the Pentateuch).

Actually there is.  Where the Sabbath is commanded along with the other Holy days, the text requires a SACRED ASSEMBLY.  Lev 23.3 That implies a worship assembly.  There are other passages where it delineates the sacrifices on the sabbath - a specific act of worship. Num 28:9-10

Offline Jaime

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Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
« Reply #6 on: Wed May 22, 2013 - 12:32:56 »

As to the Acts 20 passage, what was being celebrated there was Havdalah. (separation) It marks the change from Sabbath to the work week. It was a popular gathering in the first century Messianic Jewish congregations.

I agree, and definitely NOT a proof text of Sunday worship as I was taught in the cofc, and most of here was taught in whatever church we attend.

Offline DaveW

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Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
« Reply #7 on: Thu May 23, 2013 - 10:59:35 »
As to the Acts 20 passage, what was being celebrated there was Havdalah. (separation) It marks the change from Sabbath to the work week. It was a popular gathering in the first century Messianic Jewish congregations.
I agree, and definitely NOT a proof text of Sunday worship as I was taught in the cofc, and most of here was taught in whatever church we attend.

So I wonder why they never took the "preached until midnight" as an "approved example?"

Offline Amo

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Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
« Reply #8 on: Fri May 24, 2013 - 10:14:08 »
Quote
While what you say is true; there is also not one word forbidding using the first day of the week as a day of worship (or the 3rd or the 5th for that matter)

So unless you are using a seventh day version of the Church of Christ's CENI hermenutic where scriptural silence = scriptural prohibition; I would submit that trying convince and strong arm the Sunday folk into believing they are sinning is wrong.

As to the Acts 20 passage, what was being celebrated there was Havdalah. (separation) It marks the change from Sabbath to the work week. It was a popular gathering in the first century Messianic Jewish congregations.

The following definitions are from the Merriam-Webster Dictionary -

Main Entry:con£vince
Pronunciation:k*n-*vin(t)s
Function:transitive verb
Inflected Form:con£vinced ; con£vinc£ing
Etymology:Latin convincere to refute, convict, prove, from com- + vincere to conquer — more at  VICTOR
Date:1530

1 obsolete    a : to overcome by argument  b : OVERPOWER, OVERCOME
2 obsolete   : DEMONSTRATE, PROVE
3 : to bring (as by argument) to belief, consent, or a course of action  : PERSUADE  *convinced himself that she was all right — William Faulkner*  *something I could never convince him to read — John Lahr*
  –con£vinc£er noun 

Main Entry:1strong*arm
Pronunciation:*str**-**rm
Function:adjective
Date:1897

 : having or using undue force


Main Entry:2strong*arm
Function:transitive verb
Date:1903

1 a : to use force on  : ASSAULT  b : BULLY, INTIMIDATE
2 : to rob by force

Convincing and strong-arming are two totally different things. All true Christian Sabbath keepers should certainly try to convince others of this biblical truth. This of course will include showing the difference between the Divine authority behind the seventh day Sabbath, and the human traditional only authority behind Sunday sacredness.

On the other hand, they would be wrong to try and strong-arm the issue. This methodology is, has, and will continue to be used by Sunday observers not Sabbath observers. Sunday keepers have continually used man made laws to force their day of worship upon all, this is strong-arming. Sabbath keepers call for action based upon faith in God's word. Sunday keepers end up calling for action through man made laws, because they have not the word of God to back them up. Thus they nullify the commandment of God, in order to establish the tradition of man. Our Lord and Savior addressed this issue while here as one of us.

1 Then came together unto him the Pharisees, and certain of the scribes, which came from Jerusalem. 2 And when they saw some of his disciples eat bread with defiled, that is to say, with unwashen, hands, they found fault. 3 For the Pharisees, and all the Jews, except they wash their hands oft, eat not, holding the tradition of the elders. 4 And when they come from the market, except they wash, they eat not. And many other things there be, which they have received to hold, as the washing of cups, and pots, brasen vessels, and of tables. 5 Then the Pharisees and scribes asked him, Why walk not thy disciples according to the tradition of the elders, but eat bread with unwashen hands? 6 He answered and said unto them, Well hath Esaias prophesied of you hypocrites, as it is written, This people honoureth me with their lips, but their heart is far from me. 7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men. 8 For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do. 9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition. 10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death: 11 But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free. 12 And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother; 13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye. Mark 7:1-13 (KJV)

Paul addresses the same.

8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. 9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. 10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power: Col 2:8-10 (KJV)

Tell me Dave, is disobeying one of the commandments of God, especially one you are aware of, sin or not? Or do you suggest that only Jews can sin? What does the following scripture mean to you? Who was John addressing, do you suggest it was just the Jews?

4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. 5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin. 1 John 3:4-5 (KJV)


Offline DaveW

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Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
« Reply #9 on: Fri May 24, 2013 - 11:45:21 »
I keep a Saturday Sabbath, but as a gentile I am not specifically required to do so. (except I am in the Jewish community via the Messianic movement and the "same Torah" applies to me)

Saturday sabbath is ONLY biblically required for Jews.  Other than those who live amongst the Jews, you cannot find one verse that says otherwise.

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Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
« Reply #10 on: Fri May 24, 2013 - 13:55:03 »
I keep a Saturday Sabbath, but as a gentile I am not specifically required to do so. (except I am in the Jewish community via the Messianic movement and the "same Torah" applies to me)

Saturday sabbath is ONLY biblically required for Jews.  Other than those who live amongst the Jews, you cannot find one verse that says otherwise.

I don't believe that a Saturday Sabbath is even biblically required of Christian Jews, of which I know several.

Offline Amo

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Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
« Reply #11 on: Sat May 25, 2013 - 17:51:50 »
Quote
I keep a Saturday Sabbath, but as a gentile I am not specifically required to do so. (except I am in the Jewish community via the Messianic movement and the "same Torah" applies to me)

Saturday sabbath is ONLY biblically required for Jews.  Other than those who live amongst the Jews, you cannot find one verse that says otherwise.

Apart from Jesus Christ, there would be no such thing as a Jew. He created the world and all things in it, after which He established and sanctified the seventh day Sabbath by the power of His own word. All of this long before there ever was a Jew.

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. ............................................ .
14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. John 1:1-3&14(KJV)

15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: 16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: 17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. 18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. Col 1:15-18 (KJV)

1 Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them. 2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made. 3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made. Gen 2:1-3 (KJV)


It was Christ Himself that created the world and established the seventh day Sabbath 2000 years before there ever was a Jew. He called Abraham out from his own people. Abraham’s child of promise was a type of Christ.

6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: 7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. 8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed. 9 For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sara shall have a son. Romans 9:6-9 (KJV)

16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ. Gal 3:16 (KJV)


The miracle child Isaac was only a type of the real miracle child Jesus Christ born of God and man to save the world. Both Israel and Christianity, which is the new covenant spiritual Israel, were and are built upon the same, that is Christ Himself. These things are of the Spirit, not the flesh. All true Jews and Christians are of the Spirit, not the flesh. They are one in Christ. Those of a false gospel promote and maintain the divisions of the flesh between Jew and Gentile during the new covenant era.

57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham? 58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. 59 Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by. John 8:57-59 (KJV)

The Jews were going to stone Christ because they knew He applied the name of God who spoke to Moses from the burning bush to Himself.

30 And when forty years were expired, there appeared to him in the wilderness of mount Sina an angel of the Lord in a flame of fire in a bush. 31 When Moses saw it, he wondered at the sight: and as he drew near to behold it, the voice of the Lord came unto him, 32 Saying, I am the God of thy fathers, the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. Then Moses trembled, and durst not behold. 33 Then said the Lord to him, Put off thy shoes from thy feet: for the place where thou standest is holy ground. Acts 7:30-33 (KJV)

The angel of the Lord in the burning bush told Moses that He was the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. That angel was Christ pre incarnate, who appeared to many during the old covenant as the angel of the Lord(Gen 22:11-19, Gen 31:11-13, Exod 3:2-4, Exod 23:20-22, Jdg. 2:1-5, 6:11-24, 13:20-23, Josh 5:13-15, Zec. 3). It was He who lead Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses, and the Children of Israel. Not that the Father was not there also, for where the Father, Son, or Holy Spirit is, they are also, for they are one.

And the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed. 3 And Moses said, I will now turn aside, and see this great sight, why the bush is not burnt. 4 And when the Lord saw that he turned aside to see, God called unto him out of the midst of the bush, and said, Moses, Moses. Ex 3:2-4 (KJV)

The angel of the Lord and God in the above are one and the same, both speaking to Moses out of the midst of the bush.

14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you. 15 And God said moreover unto Moses, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, The Lord God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath sent me unto you: this is my name for ever, and this is my memorial unto all generations. Ex 3:14-15 (KJV)

Again, this is the name which Christ applied to Himself, for He was and is the God of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses, the children of  Israel, and all the sons and daughters of Abraham by faith.

26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise. Gal 3:26-29 (KJV)

Christ is, was, and will be the God of them all, as He is one with the Father and the Spirit. The false gospel you promote maintains the wall of division between them, based upon the flesh, which wall Christ came to abolish. So also does the false gospel of the supposed Gentile “Christians” which back up your false claims, by maintaining the same division. Why do you and those who support your maintenance of this division want to maintain that which Christ came to abolish?

11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; 12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: 13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. 14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; 15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; 16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: 17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh. 18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father. 19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; 20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; 21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: 22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit. Eph 2:11-22 (KJV)

Is it not because you will not submit to the gospel of Jesus Christ in it’s entirety, but wish to maintain a division between yourselves, which is really a division between yourselves and Christ because you will not fully submit to His teachings and purpose? It was Christ who lead the children of Israel through the wilderness and established their nation.

20 Behold, I send an Angel before thee, to keep thee in the way, and to bring thee into the place which I have prepared. 21 Beware of him, and obey his voice, provoke him not; for he will not pardon your transgressions: for my name is in him. 22 But if thou shalt indeed obey his voice, and do all that I speak; then I will be an enemy unto thine enemies, and an adversary unto thine adversaries. 23 For mine Angel shall go before thee, and bring thee in unto the Amorites, and the Hittites, and the Perizzites, and the Canaanites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites: and I will cut them off. 24 Thou shalt not bow down to their gods, nor serve them, nor do after their works: but thou shalt utterly overthrow them, and quite break down their images. 25 And ye shall serve the Lord your God, and he shall bless thy bread, and thy water; and I will take sickness away from the midst of thee. Ex 23:20-25 (KJV)

The Angel above was Christ Himself. God’s name was in Him, and one who obeyed His voice, did that which God spoke. Paul testifies to this fact also, that it was Christ that lead the children of Israel through the wilderness.

1 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; 2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; 3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat; 4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ. 5 But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness. 1 Cor 10:1-5 (KJV)

Every sacrifice made by faith during the old covenant before, during, and after the establishment of the Jewish nation, from that of Abel to the last ones of the Jewish temple, was a type of Christ and Him crucified for the salvation of all humanity. Apart from Him Israel had, and has no reason to exist. No purpose. He was the center of their entire nation. Those Jews who rejected Jesus Christ as their Messiah, and still do today, are none of His. They are not God’s people anymore.

42 Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes? 43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof. 44 And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder. 45 And when the chief priests and Pharisees had heard his parables, they perceived that he spake of them. Matt 21:41-45 (KJV)

Those Jews who rejected Christ, had the kingdom of God taken away from them. They began the division which has espoused a false gospel. True Israel accepted Christ as the predicted Messiah, and were joined by all among the Gentiles who would do the same. They formed the true “Christian” church which is really spiritual Israel. They are converted Jews who have accepted the Messiah of the Jewish nation, who had no other or greater purpose than to bring forth the same for the salvation of all humanity. The Israel of the new covenant is a spiritual nation, not a literal one. In Christ all divisions of the flesh are broken down, but by those who promote a false gospel and thus maintain such divisions.

21 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father. 22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews. 23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. 24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth. John 4:21-24 (KJV)

The new covenant nation of Israel is a spiritual nation, not a literal one. It is composed of those who follow the one who gave Israel it’s entire reason for existence, that is the Lamb of God, where ever He goes. Those Jews who have rejected Him are none of His or His Fathers. They maintain the division which Christ Himself came to abolish.

Those “Christian” Gentiles who will not submit to His teachings and authority above all other, do not follow the Lamb where ever He goes either. They support the division created by the Jews who rejected their Messiah, by maintaining that the Jews who have rejected Christ are still God’s chosen. Thus they also maintain the division by teaching that the law of God and the Sabbath commandment are only for the Jews, against the teachings of Christ Himself. They support each other in a false gospel, neither submitting to the authority of Christ who is God, and the only reason they even exist.

By contrast, true spiritual Jews who are true Christian followers of Christ, accept Christ as the Messiah, and the authority of His teachings as the one who created and sustains all things. God’s true nation being composed of Jews and Gentiles who no longer support the divisions of humanity, which are themselves caused by the division of humanity from God. Which very things Christ came to abolish.

1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads. 2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps: 3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth. 4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb. 5 And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God. 6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people, 7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters. 8 And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication. 9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, 10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: 11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name. 12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus. Rev 14:1-12 (KJV)

Who are those who follow “the Lamb whithersoever he goeth”? Are they not the saints as the above scriptures testify? Who are the saints? Are they not those who “keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus” as the above scriptures testify? Of course they are, the scriptures do not lie. If what you believe contradicts them, then you believe a lie. Is not Christ all in all? Is He not the beginning and the end, the Alpha and Omega? Is there or will there be anything or anyone apart from Him in the end? No there will not. Why therefore will you reject His teachings in favor of those of another?

7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen. 8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty. Rev 1:7-8 (KJV)

11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea. Rev 1:11 (KJV)

5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful. 6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely. 7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. 8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death. Rev 21:5-8 (KJV)

12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. 13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. 14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. 15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie. 16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star. Rev 22:12-16 (KJV)


Who is the dragon or devil mad at in this world? Is it not those who keep the commandments of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ? Yes it is.

15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood. 16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth. 17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. Rev 12:15-17 (KJV)

Why will you argue with scripture Dave? Why will you tell those who follow Jesus Christ that they do not have to keep the commandments of God, against the testimony of Jesus Christ Himself? Do you not understand that the fourth commandment is included in every admonition of scripture to keep the commandments of God?

1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: 2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world. 3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. 4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him. 6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked. 1 John 2:1-6 (KJV)

Why do you argue with the living testimony of Jesus Christ Himself, who kept all the commandments of God? You know that I can share a lot more New Testament scripture admonishing all to keep the commandments of God, so why will you argue with the same? Did Christ keep the Sabbath or not? Of course he did. Should we walk as He walked as the above scriptures admonish or not?

You contend that no one but the Jews are ever admonished to keep the seventh day in scripture, though you know the Sabbath was instituted 2000 years before there even was a Jew. I’m quite sure I have shared with you in the past that scripture also points out that the seventh day Sabbath will be kept in heaven. This is not to mention the fact that it was the rejection of Christ Himself and His followers by the majority of the Jews, that lead to the adoption of the name Christian for Jesus’ followers. For Christ Himself was not only a Jew, but in fact the creator and sustainer of the Jewish nation. It was the apostate Jew’s rejection of Him, which caused the split which lead to another name being applied to those Jews and others which accepted Christ as the Messiah. If they had not done so, all followers of Christ today would be converted Jews, seeing that Christ was a Jew, and the Messiah of the Jews. Jews themselves caused the split, and the false gospel resulting from the same. One gospel for Jews, and another for Gentiles. Yet the scriptures themselves testify that the seventh day Sabbath was not just of the Jews, but all humanity, and especially those converted during the new covenant.

1 Thus saith the Lord, Keep ye judgment, and do justice: for my salvation is near to come, and my righteousness to be revealed. 2 Blessed is the man that doeth this, and the son of man that layeth hold on it; that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and keepeth his hand from doing any evil. 3 Neither let the son of the stranger, that hath joined himself to the Lord, speak, saying, The Lord hath utterly separated me from his people: neither let the eunuch say, Behold, I am a dry tree. 4 For thus saith the Lord unto the eunuchs that keep my sabbaths, and choose the things that please me, and take hold of my covenant; 5 Even unto them will I give in mine house and within my walls a place and a name better than of sons and of daughters: I will give them an everlasting name, that shall not be cut off. 6 Also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to the Lord, to serve him, and to love the name of the Lord, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant; 7 Even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted upon mine altar; for mine house shall be called an house of prayer for all people. 8 The Lord GOD which gathereth the outcasts of Israel saith, Yet will I gather others to him, beside those that are gathered unto him. Isaiah 56:1-8 (KJV)

Will you deny that the above is referring to and definitely includes the Gentiles that join themselves to the Lord through Christ His Son? No other book of the old testament speaks so much about the salvation of the Gentiles, and the above reference is obviously concerning their observance of God’s seventh day Sabbath when they have joined themselves to Him. Why will you continue to argue with the truth, telling those Gentiles who have joined themselves to God through our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, that they need not keep the commandments of God. This lie was never taught by our Lord and Savior or any of His Apostles.

10 And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious. 11 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea. 12 And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth. Isaiah 11:10-12 (KJV)

1 Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles. 2 He shall not cry, nor lift up, nor cause his voice to be heard in the street. 3 A bruised reed shall he not break, and the smoking flax shall he not quench: he shall bring forth judgment unto truth. 4 He shall not fail nor be discouraged, till he have set judgment in the earth: and the isles shall wait for his law. 5 Thus saith God the Lord, he that created the heavens, and stretched them out; he that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it; he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein: 6 I the Lord have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles; 7 To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house. 8 I am the Lord: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images. 9 Behold, the former things are come to pass, and new things do I declare: before they spring forth I tell you of them. Isaiah 42:1-9 (KJV)

6 And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth. 7 Thus saith the Lord, the Redeemer of Israel, and his Holy One, to him whom man despiseth, to him whom the nation abhorreth, to a servant of rulers, Kings shall see and arise, princes also shall worship, because of the Lord that is faithful, and the Holy One of Israel, and he shall choose thee. 8 Thus saith the Lord, In an acceptable time have I heard thee, and in a day of salvation have I helped thee: and I will preserve thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, to establish the earth, to cause to inherit the desolate heritages; 9 That thou mayest say to the prisoners, Go forth; to them that are in darkness, Shew yourselves. Isaiah 49:6-9 (KJV)

22 Thus saith the Lord GOD, Behold, I will lift up mine hand to the Gentiles, and set up my standard to the people: and they shall bring thy sons in their arms, and thy daughters shall be carried upon their shoulders. 23 And kings shall be thy nursing fathers, and their queens thy nursing mothers: they shall bow down to thee with their face toward the earth, and lick up the dust of thy feet; and thou shalt know that I am the Lord: for they shall not be ashamed that wait for me. Isaiah 49:22-23 (KJV)

1 Arise, shine; for thy light is come, and the glory of the Lord is risen upon thee. 2 For, behold, the darkness shall cover the earth, and gross darkness the people: but the Lord shall arise upon thee, and his glory shall be seen upon thee. 3 And the Gentiles shall come to thy light, and kings to the brightness of thy rising. 4 Lift up thine eyes round about, and see: all they gather themselves together, they come to thee: thy sons shall come from far, and thy daughters shall be nursed at thy side. 5 Then thou shalt see, and flow together, and thine heart shall fear, and be enlarged; because the abundance of the sea shall be converted unto thee, the forces of the Gentiles shall come unto thee. Isaiah 60:1-5 (KJV)

1 For Zion's sake will I not hold my peace, and for Jerusalem's sake I will not rest, until the righteousness thereof go forth as brightness, and the salvation thereof as a lamp that burneth. 2 And the Gentiles shall see thy righteousness, and all kings thy glory: and thou shalt be called by a new name, which the mouth of the Lord shall name. Isaiah 62:1-2 (KJV)

19 And I will set a sign among them, and I will send those that escape of them unto the nations, to Tarshish, Pul, and Lud, that draw the bow, to Tubal, and Javan, to the isles afar off, that have not heard my fame, neither have seen my glory; and they shall declare my glory among the Gentiles. 20 And they shall bring all your brethren for an offering unto the Lord out of all nations upon horses, and in chariots, and in litters, and upon mules, and upon swift beasts, to my holy mountain Jerusalem, saith the Lord, as the children of Israel bring an offering in a clean vessel into the house of the Lord. 21 And I will also take of them for priests and for Levites, saith the Lord. 22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the Lord, so shall your seed and your name remain. 23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the Lord. 24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh. Isaiah 66:19-24 (KJV)


Why do you discourage the Gentiles who have joined themselves to the Lord through His Son Jesus Christ, from keeping His Sabbaths? They have been admonished to keep His commandments here and now, and will do so also in heaven, including the fourth commandment.

15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep. 16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd. 17 Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again. 18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father. John 10:15-18 (KJV)

There is one fold, and one shepherd Jesus Christ, not two. Not one gospel and one shepherd for the Jews, and another gospel and shepherd for the Gentiles. Those who preach such, preach a false gospel. Those who hear Christ’s voice, and follow are His true flock.

25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me. 26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. 27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: 28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. 29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. 30 I and my Father are one. 31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him. 32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me? 33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God. John 10:25-33 (KJV)

Christ and the Father are one. Those who hear Christ’s voice and follow Him, they are the true fold. Christ never taught that any of the commandments could be done away with. As already pointed out, He taught the exact opposite.

15 If ye love me, keep my commandments. 16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; 17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. 18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you. 19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also. 20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you. 21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him. John 14:15-21 (KJV)

1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman. 2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit. 3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you. 4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. 5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. 6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. 7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you. 8 Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples. 9 As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love. 10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love. John 15:1-10 (KJV)


How say you brother, that Christ taught any that they could be of another fold, and need not keep the commandments of God, as Christ kept them also? From where do you derive such authority above and in contradiction to the words spoken by Jesus Christ? Show us where the scriptures teach that any can ignore any one of the commandments of God with impunity, and I will show you where you have twisted the scriptures to your own ends.

17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. 19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven. Matt 5:17-20 (KJV)

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Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
« Reply #12 on: Sun May 26, 2013 - 10:04:34 »
Nowhere in the scriptures do you find one word which sanctions Sunday worship, you can search in the Old as well as the New Testament there is nothing. The word Sunday itself is not found in the Bible, you only see the number of the days so that it is clear what day is which. In the New Testament the first day of the week is mentioned eight times. In none of the eight instances is the first day said to be a day of worship, never is it said to be the Christian substitute for Sabbath, and neither do the texts suggest that the first day of the week should be regarded as a memorial of Christ's resurrection. Lets look in this study by Kenneth Strand, 'The Sabbath in Scripture and History'  at each of the eight New Testament passages that mention the first day of the week.

snip.................snip.......


None of these eight New Testament references to the first day of the week (Sunday), provides any evidence that Jesus or His disciples changed the day of worship from the seventh to the first day. Nor is the first day of the week represented as a time to memorialize the resurrection of Christ. Whatever  significance was given to Sunday in the later history of the church, it had no basis in the teaching or practice of Jesus and His apostles and is not sanctioned in Scripture. Jesus instructed His disciples to observe the Sabbath after His death and Jesus and the apostles kept the seventh-day Sabbath and instructed others to do likewise, so it wasn't changed by them. The record of the book of Acts establishes that the apostles consistently kept the Sabbath day as a time for worship and fellowship. So the origin of the change to Sunday worship is from another source.. it never was sanctioned in any way in scripture.

There is not one word in the Bible that sanctions Saturday worship either. 

To assume either requires the person to make a leap of logic and believe that the pagan Julian calendar is also Gods calendar and to disbelieve the instruction of Scripture that we are not to judge others based of food, drink or observance of certain days

Offline DaveW

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Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
« Reply #13 on: Sun May 26, 2013 - 21:32:57 »
There is not one word in the Bible that sanctions Saturday worship either. 

To assume either requires the person to make a leap of logic and believe that the pagan Julian calendar is also Gods calendar

Actually a "sacred assembly" and certain unique animal sacrifices were required on the sabbath. (first few verses of Lev 23 and parts of Parshah Pinchas. (Numbers 25:10-30:1)

And you forget the Julian calendar originally had a 8 day week, not a 7 day week as we have.

Quote
and to disbelieve the instruction of Scripture that we are not to judge others based of food, drink or observance of certain days
Written to put to rest the dispute between Jews keeping a Saturday sabbath  and dietary regulations as commanded and Gentile believers who did not have to.

Offline Hobie

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Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
« Reply #14 on: Sat Oct 07, 2017 - 05:55:28 »
While what you say is true; there is also not one word forbidding using the first day of the week as a day of worship (or the 3rd or the 5th for that matter)

So unless you are using a seventh day version of the Church of Christ's CENI hermenutic where scriptural silence = scriptural prohibition; I would submit that trying convince and strong arm the Sunday folk into believing they are sinning is wrong.

As to the Acts 20 passage, what was being celebrated there was Havdalah. (separation) It marks the change from Sabbath to the work week. It was a popular gathering in the first century Messianic Jewish congregations.
The children of Israel turned to other worship, was it forbidden...

Exodus 32:8

They have turned aside quickly out of the way which I commanded them: they have made them a molten calf, and have worshipped it, and have sacrificed thereunto, and said, These be thy gods, O Israel, which have brought thee up out of the land of Egypt.

Yet, to worship other gods such as the Molten Calf of Egypt, or the Sun gods etc... was a abomination, and this is were the worship of pagan day of the sun is from...

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Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
« Reply #15 on: Sat Oct 07, 2017 - 12:57:01 »
What day of the week did the apostles meet to break bread, etc.?

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Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
« Reply #16 on: Sat Oct 07, 2017 - 18:07:47 »
What day of the week did the apostles meet to break bread, etc.?

Every day.

Acts 2:40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation. 41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls. 42 And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers. 43 And fear came upon every soul: and many wonders and signs were done by the apostles. 44 And all that believed were together, and had all things common; 45 And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need. 46 And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart, 47 Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.

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Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
« Reply #17 on: Sat Oct 07, 2017 - 21:38:59 »
Every day.

Acts 2:40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation. 41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls. 42 And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers. 43 And fear came upon every soul: and many wonders and signs were done by the apostles. 44 And all that believed were together, and had all things common; 45 And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need. 46 And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart, 47 Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.

Nope. I see daily TEMPLE, not daily breaking of bread.

Maybe i should of been more specific.

Acts 20:7 proves weekly communion on Sunday (1st Day)

1 Corinthians 16:1-2 proves weekly church collection on Sunday (1st Day)

Ps 118:22-26 actually prophecies the first day of the week! This messianic prophecy is about the new day God would make when Jesus rose from the dead: Sunday!

The first day of the week is a weekly memorial of Jesus' Resurrection While the Lord's Supper is a memorial of the Lord's death, the first day of the week is the weekly memorial of Christ's resurrection! We are told, not to remember Christ's birth on Dec 25, but his death every Sunday via Communion. We are told, not to remember Christ's resurrection once a year at "Easter", but every Sunday, a the anniversary of his resurrection!

The Pentecost of Acts 2:1 fell on a Sunday (1st day)

Sunday is the weekly memorial of the new creation and our deliverance from sin. Athanasius wrote in 345 AD "The Sabbath was the end of the first creation, the Lord's day was the beginning of the second, in which he renewed and restored the old in the same way as he prescribed that they should formerly observe the Sabbath as a memorial of the end of the first things, so we honor the Lord's day as being the memorial of the new creation" (Athanasius, On Sabbath and Circumcision 3).

History proves Christians always met on 1st Day and not the Sabbath, right back to the apostolic age. (33 AD) What is even more powerful is that early Christians called the first day, the Lord's Day because it was the day Jesus rose from the dead!

Now, if anyone CHANGED it, please PROVE it. WHO and WHEN?

Online RB

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Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
« Reply #18 on: Sun Oct 08, 2017 - 04:01:00 »
We are Gentile Christians under the New Testament following Jesus Christ according to the epistles of His apostles. Moses is nothing in comparison to Him. See Hebrews three~ The Law is nothing in comparison to grace. See Galatians three~Ceremonial works are nothing in comparison to faith. See Philippians three~The Jewish Sabbath is nothing in comparison to the Lord's Day. See Revelation one.

The Sabbath was a special day to Israel only. This point is very important but ignored or rejected by Sabbatarians. The Sabbath was never for Gentiles or Christians. It was only and specifically His special sign to Israel as His covenant nation under the O.T. (See Exodus 31:12-18; Deuteronomy 5:15; Nehemiah 9:13-14; Ezekiel 20:12,20).

These verses are very plain. Read them! Believe them! Obey them! Gentile Christians under the N.T. have no obligation to keep Israel's O.T. Sabbath laws. God never charged anyone else at any other time to keep the seventh day for any reason. No one observed the Sabbath before Moses came down from Mt. Sinai.

Christians follow and glorify the Lord Jesus Christ~not Moses, not Israel, not the Law, not the Jewish Sabbath. Exalting these pitiful substitutes that passed away long ago rejects and dishonors Jesus Christ. It makes no difference if you accept this or not, but one DOES reject Christ for the weak and beggarly elements of Moses' law.

Sunday, the Lord's Day, is a special weekly privilege to rest IN Christ and to glorify Jesus Christ on the day He ordained for worship. Christians always take N.T. ordinances and tradition over O.T. ceremonial or national laws.

Seventh-Day Adventists and their imitators glorify Saturday. They exalt Moses and the O.T. over Jesus and Paul and the N.T. They choose shadows over reality … law over grace … carnal ordinances over spiritual … bondage over liberty. They exalt a calendar day over the finished work of Christ. They reject the Lord's spiritual fulfillment and abolition of the Sabbath for a worldly yoke of bondage. It makes no difference if they believe what I'm saying or not, but it is STILL the truth.

Paul's greatest burden was fighting such Jewish legalists. False teachers followed him, creeping into churches and corrupting Gentile believers with O.T. superstition about circumcision, dietary laws, and the Sabbath. Most of Galatians and Hebrews, and much of Romans, Ephesians, Philippians, and Colossians, were written to oppose them. These heretics chose Moses and meats over Jesus and His gospel. Pitiful indeed and their children STILL DO THE SAME.

Rejecting celebration of the resurrected Lord Jesus Christ and His day for the beggarly bondage of the Jewish Sabbath is heresy and superstition. Christians never assembled as Christians on Saturday after resurrection morning. The Lord of the Sabbath had abolished it at His resurrection, after nailing that carnal and worldly ordinance to His cross, when He became the reality and fulfillment of its shadow.

It was a new day …. literally, the first day of the week … spiritually, the gospel Day called Today … covenantally, the New Testament of the Lord Jesus Christ.

The issue is simple. What is the N.T. day for religious worship? Is it Saturday, a carnal ordinance Moses brought down from Mt. Sinai and imposed on Israel until Jesus and His apostles? Or is it Sunday, the day on which Jesus Christ appeared to His assembled apostles and blessed them, who all kept that day from then on?

Four simple, conclusive passages~Colosians  2:16-17; Galatians 4:9-11; Ist Corinthians 16:1-2; Acts 20:6-7~are more than enough for noble readers (Acts 17:11), but most likely not if one is blinded by their precious works of adding to the word of God!

We ask those who love the Jesus Christ, for them to come over into the New Testament and join us Gentile Christians following the Lord Jesus Christ according to the authoritative epistles of His apostles. Leave Moses, Mt. Sinai, and the ancient nation of Israel where they belong~under the Old Testament. We sincerely wish you would consider the glory of Christ OVER Moses' short-lived glory! See 2nd Corinthians 3
« Last Edit: Sun Oct 08, 2017 - 06:51:02 by RB »

Offline 4WD

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Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
« Reply #19 on: Sun Oct 08, 2017 - 06:04:38 »
In truth, there is nothing in the NT about gathering together on any given day to worship.  We read that they met together to break bread, for fellowship, for teaching, and for putting aside money offerings.  Worship is not something reserved for a special day of the week or a special time that day.  I think that it is a modern, or maybe not so modern, misunderstanding to think that Sunday is a day of "worship".  Every day should be a day of worship. Sunday should be a day for Christians to come together to learn, to teach, to encourage others, to be encouraged. Even in the OT, the Sabbath was not set aside as a day of worship, but rather as a day of rest.

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Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
« Reply #20 on: Sun Oct 08, 2017 - 06:48:58 »
In truth, there is nothing in the NT about gathering together on any given day to worship.  We read that they met together to break bread, for fellowship, for teaching, and for putting aside money offerings.  Worship is not something reserved for a special day of the week or a special time that day.  I think that it is a modern, or maybe not so modern, misunderstanding to think that Sunday is a day of "worship".  Every day should be a day of worship. Sunday should be a day for Christians to come together to learn, to teach, to encourage others, to be encouraged. Even in the OT, the Sabbath was not set aside as a day of worship, but rather as a day of rest.
Agreed

Offline Amo

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Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
« Reply #21 on: Sun Oct 08, 2017 - 09:47:12 »
We are Gentile Christians under the New Testament following Jesus Christ according to the epistles of His apostles. Moses is nothing in comparison to Him. See Hebrews three~ The Law is nothing in comparison to grace. See Galatians three~Ceremonial works are nothing in comparison to faith. See Philippians three~The Jewish Sabbath is nothing in comparison to the Lord's Day. See Revelation one.

The Sabbath was a special day to Israel only. This point is very important but ignored or rejected by Sabbatarians. The Sabbath was never for Gentiles or Christians. It was only and specifically His special sign to Israel as His covenant nation under the O.T. (See Exodus 31:12-18; Deuteronomy 5:15; Nehemiah 9:13-14; Ezekiel 20:12,20).

These verses are very plain. Read them! Believe them! Obey them! Gentile Christians under the N.T. have no obligation to keep Israel's O.T. Sabbath laws. God never charged anyone else at any other time to keep the seventh day for any reason. No one observed the Sabbath before Moses came down from Mt. Sinai.

Christians follow and glorify the Lord Jesus Christ~not Moses, not Israel, not the Law, not the Jewish Sabbath. Exalting these pitiful substitutes that passed away long ago rejects and dishonors Jesus Christ. It makes no difference if you accept this or not, but one DOES reject Christ for the weak and beggarly elements of Moses' law.

Sunday, the Lord's Day, is a special weekly privilege to rest IN Christ and to glorify Jesus Christ on the day He ordained for worship. Christians always take N.T. ordinances and tradition over O.T. ceremonial or national laws.

Seventh-Day Adventists and their imitators glorify Saturday. They exalt Moses and the O.T. over Jesus and Paul and the N.T. They choose shadows over reality … law over grace … carnal ordinances over spiritual … bondage over liberty. They exalt a calendar day over the finished work of Christ. They reject the Lord's spiritual fulfillment and abolition of the Sabbath for a worldly yoke of bondage. It makes no difference if they believe what I'm saying or not, but it is STILL the truth.

Paul's greatest burden was fighting such Jewish legalists. False teachers followed him, creeping into churches and corrupting Gentile believers with O.T. superstition about circumcision, dietary laws, and the Sabbath. Most of Galatians and Hebrews, and much of Romans, Ephesians, Philippians, and Colossians, were written to oppose them. These heretics chose Moses and meats over Jesus and His gospel. Pitiful indeed and their children STILL DO THE SAME.

Rejecting celebration of the resurrected Lord Jesus Christ and His day for the beggarly bondage of the Jewish Sabbath is heresy and superstition. Christians never assembled as Christians on Saturday after resurrection morning. The Lord of the Sabbath had abolished it at His resurrection, after nailing that carnal and worldly ordinance to His cross, when He became the reality and fulfillment of its shadow.

It was a new day …. literally, the first day of the week … spiritually, the gospel Day called Today … covenantally, the New Testament of the Lord Jesus Christ.

The issue is simple. What is the N.T. day for religious worship? Is it Saturday, a carnal ordinance Moses brought down from Mt. Sinai and imposed on Israel until Jesus and His apostles? Or is it Sunday, the day on which Jesus Christ appeared to His assembled apostles and blessed them, who all kept that day from then on?

Four simple, conclusive passages~Colosians  2:16-17; Galatians 4:9-11; Ist Corinthians 16:1-2; Acts 20:6-7~are more than enough for noble readers (Acts 17:11), but most likely not if one is blinded by their precious works of adding to the word of God!

We ask those who love the Jesus Christ, for them to come over into the New Testament and join us Gentile Christians following the Lord Jesus Christ according to the authoritative epistles of His apostles. Leave Moses, Mt. Sinai, and the ancient nation of Israel where they belong~under the Old Testament. We sincerely wish you would consider the glory of Christ OVER Moses' short-lived glory! See 2nd Corinthians 3

Thank you for so clearly and concisely declaring your position. One of us is a liar, and will not walk through the gates into heaven exactly for what we teach and preach concerning this subject. May God judge righteously between us, as He always does.

Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Rev 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.


You believe the commandments above are some changed version of Christ's commandments, I believe they are the ten commandments of God, which are Christ's commandments who is God. May Christ judge between us righteously as He always does when we stand before the throne of God.

You believe I am a legalist pushing salvation through works because I believe the saved should keep the commandments of God. I believe you are part of the dragons host whom he sends to defy and eventually persecute those who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. May the Father and Son judge between us righteously as they always do on that great day.

I hope you won't mind observing the seventh day Sabbath again in heaven, if it turns out you were right, since the scriptures declare we will do so when there.

Isa 66:22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the Lord, so shall your seed and your name remain. 23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the Lord. 24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

« Last Edit: Sun Oct 08, 2017 - 10:09:30 by Amo »

Offline Amo

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Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
« Reply #22 on: Sun Oct 08, 2017 - 10:00:23 »
Nope. I see daily TEMPLE, not daily breaking of bread.

Maybe i should of been more specific.

Acts 20:7 proves weekly communion on Sunday (1st Day)

1 Corinthians 16:1-2 proves weekly church collection on Sunday (1st Day)

Ps 118:22-26 actually prophecies the first day of the week! This messianic prophecy is about the new day God would make when Jesus rose from the dead: Sunday!

The first day of the week is a weekly memorial of Jesus' Resurrection While the Lord's Supper is a memorial of the Lord's death, the first day of the week is the weekly memorial of Christ's resurrection! We are told, not to remember Christ's birth on Dec 25, but his death every Sunday via Communion. We are told, not to remember Christ's resurrection once a year at "Easter", but every Sunday, a the anniversary of his resurrection!

The Pentecost of Acts 2:1 fell on a Sunday (1st day)

Sunday is the weekly memorial of the new creation and our deliverance from sin. Athanasius wrote in 345 AD "The Sabbath was the end of the first creation, the Lord's day was the beginning of the second, in which he renewed and restored the old in the same way as he prescribed that they should formerly observe the Sabbath as a memorial of the end of the first things, so we honor the Lord's day as being the memorial of the new creation" (Athanasius, On Sabbath and Circumcision 3).

History proves Christians always met on 1st Day and not the Sabbath, right back to the apostolic age. (33 AD) What is even more powerful is that early Christians called the first day, the Lord's Day because it was the day Jesus rose from the dead!

Now, if anyone CHANGED it, please PROVE it. WHO and WHEN?

We can of course all choose to see what we wish to see. Denying history that doesn't support what we want to believe, does not make it go away anywhere but in our own heads. The threads on this SDA board are filled with historical information and quotes which completely contradict your above claim, you simply choose to ignore them and deny their existence. You also claim that completely inconclusive statements about the first day of the week, which say nothing about a change in the day of worship or a new one being established, prove that this is so. You do this while you ignore the fact that Christ and the apostles absolutely did not only keep the sabbath, but taught and defended its proper observance. You ignore all accounts of the same and deny they mean anything, but turn vague statements about the first day of the week into absolute proof that Sunday is a scripturally established new day of worship which replaces the seventh day Sabbath of the fourth commandment of God. Making the following words of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ of none effect.

Mt 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. 19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Please do tell us, what Jesus meant by the above, if in fact He knew and intended to change the fourth commandment of God in his death and resurrection.

Offline Amo

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Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
« Reply #23 on: Sun Oct 08, 2017 - 10:07:20 »
In truth, there is nothing in the NT about gathering together on any given day to worship.  We read that they met together to break bread, for fellowship, for teaching, and for putting aside money offerings.  Worship is not something reserved for a special day of the week or a special time that day.  I think that it is a modern, or maybe not so modern, misunderstanding to think that Sunday is a day of "worship".  Every day should be a day of worship. Sunday should be a day for Christians to come together to learn, to teach, to encourage others, to be encouraged. Even in the OT, the Sabbath was not set aside as a day of worship, but rather as a day of rest.

The entire day was in commemoration of God's creation of heaven and earth. Acknowledgment of who He is and who we are in relation to Him. But you don't believe the creation account recorded in the bible do you? Why therefore would you believe in keeping a commandment which itself commemorates that which never really happened? Of course you do not. Do you believe everything established by the word of God during the old covenant is now negated if it is not reestablished in the new covenant? Is this a biblical teaching and the reasoning behind your belief that the fourth commandment no longer applies to God's people? I mean of course, apart from the fact that you do not believe the creation account which the Sabbath itself commemorates.

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Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
« Reply #24 on: Sun Oct 08, 2017 - 16:26:11 »
Thank you for so clearly and concisely declaring your position. One of us is a liar, and will not walk through the gates into heaven exactly for what we teach and preach concerning this subject. May God judge righteously between us, as He always does.

Salvation is in Christ, not a day of worship.  You are in error.

Offline 4WD

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Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
« Reply #25 on: Sun Oct 08, 2017 - 18:43:25 »
But you don't believe the creation account recorded in the bible do you?
Of course I do.  I just don't believe your account of the meaning.
« Last Edit: Sun Oct 08, 2017 - 18:50:17 by 4WD »

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Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
« Reply #26 on: Sun Oct 08, 2017 - 19:13:24 »
We can of course all choose to see what we wish to see. Denying history that doesn't support what we want to believe, does not make it go away anywhere but in our own heads. The threads on this SDA board are filled with historical information and quotes which completely contradict your above claim, you simply choose to ignore them and deny their existence. You also claim that completely inconclusive statements about the first day of the week, which say nothing about a change in the day of worship or a new one being established, prove that this is so. You do this while you ignore the fact that Christ and the apostles absolutely did not only keep the sabbath, but taught and defended its proper observance. You ignore all accounts of the same and deny they mean anything, but turn vague statements about the first day of the week into absolute proof that Sunday is a scripturally established new day of worship which replaces the seventh day Sabbath of the fourth commandment of God. Making the following words of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ of none effect.

Mt 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. 19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Please do tell us, what Jesus meant by the above, if in fact He knew and intended to change the fourth commandment of God in his death and resurrection.

No, i will answer you when you have addressed the scriptures and points i raised.

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Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
« Reply #27 on: Sun Oct 08, 2017 - 19:24:19 »
You do this while you ignore the fact that Christ and the apostles absolutely did not only keep the sabbath, but taught and defended its proper observance.

You ignore the fact that Jesus HEALED and did GOOD on the sabbath, thereby NOT keeping it!

BTW: Do YOU turn on a light in your house on saturdays? Do you travel on saturdays? Do you CARRY anything on the sabbath? Do you COOK anything on saturdays? Do you tie your shoelaces on saturdays?

Jesus and the apostles DID go to the temple on the sabbath. I completely agree and this is Biblical.

WHY did they go?

Because THAT'S WHERE THE PEOPLE WERE THAT THEY WERE TRYING TO REACH!

If you want to help alcoholics, you don't go to a juice bar to find them.

The sabbath was the OLD covenant for the JEWS.

I praise the Lord i am not under law but am now under GRACE.


Offline Jaime

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Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
« Reply #28 on: Sun Oct 08, 2017 - 19:31:25 »
Jesus didn’t break the Sabbath, he properly interpretted what the Jewish leadership had perverted. Re-interpretting the Law was what Jesus was doing in the Sermon on the Mount. “You have heard it said......., but I say to you.........

Now the Jews certainly accused him of breaking the Sabbath. BUT of course he is GOD. He would know what the proper intent was. Plus as we all know, he was teaching them that it was not just the letter of the law, but the spirit of the law. It's not that we shouldn't murder, we should not even harbor anger in our hearts. It's not that just not committing adultery was the line, we should not have lust in our hearts.
« Last Edit: Mon Oct 09, 2017 - 08:23:03 by Jaime »

Online RB

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Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
« Reply #29 on: Mon Oct 09, 2017 - 05:38:13 »
Thank you for so clearly and concisely declaring your position. One of us is a liar,
Well, I would not call you a liar, but without question a confused believer.
Quote from: Amo
One of us is a liar, and will not walk through the gates into heaven exactly for what we teach and preach concerning this subject.
Amo, of course, we both know that heaven has no gates, for the Lamb is the protector of his people who in that world to come there will be NO FEAR of any enemy without, for there will be none.

More than that, Amo, inheriting the new earth is NOT depending on our understanding, or good works, but Jesus' perfect knowledge and obedience, and thank God that this is so, for if it depended on our works and understanding, then NONE would enter into life.
Quote from: Amo
May God judge righteously between us, as He always does.
Sir, I was judged IN CHRIST, and will NOT be judged to see if I enter into life based on my own obedience! Now, that being said, this does not give a believer a right to continue in sin that grace may abound, and neither do we teach that just because we understand the Jewish Sabbath is NOT for us, but for them, yet we DO understand the SIGN of it, that it pointed to OUR REST IN CHRIST that we cease from our OWN WORKS, which you have not yet learned.
Quote from: Amo
Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Rev 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

You believe the commandments above are some changed version of Christ's commandments, I believe they are the ten commandments of God, which are Christ's commandments who is God. May Christ judge between us righteously as He always does when we stand before the throne of God.
Again, a believer's "overall life" is known by living godly, which is an evidence that they HAVE eternal life abiding within them. No, we do not believe God's commandments are changed, yet in the New Testament no where are NT Christians commanded to keep the Jewish Sabbath, no where and neither do we see it practiced by the apostles~time will not allow us to consider this in depth at the moment, but will if you desire to do so.
Quote from: Amo
You believe I am a legalist pushing salvation through works.
You are guilty of both.
Quote from: Amo
because I believe the saved should keep the commandments of God
We DO NOT teach that we have the liberty to live as we please. But, do exalt God's commandments a rule for our life to live by, YET, knowing in our hearts that we fall so short every second that we live in the flesh. We fully understand Romans seven, and the grief of spirit that holy Paul experienced DAILY......which you do not.
Quote from: Amo
I believe you are part of the dragons host whom he sends to defy and eventually persecute those who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
I'm sure you do Amo~that's what pride does for those who think they can keep God's commandments and be rewarded for doing so! Pride also blinds men like you, for you refuse to hear what the law DOES SAY and which Paul enlarged upon in Galatians three, where he said this:
Quote from: Moses and Paul
Galatians 3:10-13~"For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them. But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith. And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them. Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:"
Sir, ONCE a man thinks that he will enter into life by keeping God's commandments, then he should UNDERSTAND which you do not, that one's works MUST BE PERFECT in thought, word, and deed, FROM conception to his death, or else he is cursed of God~now, have you done this? if not, then what is your hope of inheriting eternal life? Let me answer this for you....I cannot go ONE day without sinning, impossible for me to do so, so I by faith LOOK to Jesus Christ and trust HIS perfect obedience for my right to life. Does it grieve me to sin? Indeed it does, yet, I trust God through Jesus Christ to deliver me from this BODY OF SIN that I live IN....and he has promised to do so, by giving to me the earnest of the Spirit to live victorious over sin, but not free from sin's presence.
Quote from: Amo
I hope you won't mind observing the seventh day Sabbath again in heaven, if it turns out you were right, since the scriptures declare we will do so when there.

Isa 66:22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the Lord, so shall your seed and your name remain. 23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the Lord. 24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.
I can enjoy this NOW under the NT through Jesus Christ and the perfect rest he gives to those who cease from their own works and LOOK to Jesus Christ alone for my right to, life in the world to come.

Forgive me for rushing this and forgive the errors herein, for I'm in a hurry as always, but more so at the moment.
« Last Edit: Mon Oct 09, 2017 - 08:17:14 by RB »

Offline Amo

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Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
« Reply #30 on: Fri Oct 13, 2017 - 11:06:50 »
Well, I would not call you a liar, but without question a confused believer. Amo, of course, we both know that heaven has no gates, for the Lamb is the protector of his people who in that world to come there will be NO FEAR of any enemy without, for there will be none.

More than that, Amo, inheriting the new earth is NOT depending on our understanding, or good works, but Jesus' perfect knowledge and obedience, and thank God that this is so, for if it depended on our works and understanding, then NONE would enter into life. Sir, I was judged IN CHRIST, and will NOT be judged to see if I enter into life based on my own obedience! Now, that being said, this does not give a believer a right to continue in sin that grace may abound, and neither do we teach that just because we understand the Jewish Sabbath is NOT for us, but for them, yet we DO understand the SIGN of it, that it pointed to OUR REST IN CHRIST that we cease from our OWN WORKS, which you have not yet learned. Again, a believer's "overall life" is known by living godly, which is an evidence that they HAVE eternal life abiding within them. No, we do not believe God's commandments are changed, yet in the New Testament no where are NT Christians commanded to keep the Jewish Sabbath, no where and neither do we see it practiced by the apostles~time will not allow us to consider this in depth at the moment, but will if you desire to do so. You are guilty of both.We DO NOT teach that we have the liberty to live as we please. But, do exalt God's commandments a rule for our life to live by, YET, knowing in our hearts that we fall so short every second that we live in the flesh. We fully understand Romans seven, and the grief of spirit that holy Paul experienced DAILY......which you do not. I'm sure you do Amo~that's what pride does for those who think they can keep God's commandments and be rewarded for doing so! Pride also blinds men like you, for you refuse to hear what the law DOES SAY and which Paul enlarged upon in Galatians three, where he said this: Sir, ONCE a man thinks that he will enter into life by keeping God's commandments, then he should UNDERSTAND which you do not, that one's works MUST BE PERFECT in thought, word, and deed, FROM conception to his death, or else he is cursed of God~now, have you done this? if not, then what is your hope of inheriting eternal life? Let me answer this for you....I cannot go ONE day without sinning, impossible for me to do so, so I by faith LOOK to Jesus Christ and trust HIS perfect obedience for my right to life. Does it grieve me to sin? Indeed it does, yet, I trust God through Jesus Christ to deliver me from this BODY OF SIN that I live IN....and he has promised to do so, by giving to me the earnest of the Spirit to live victorious over sin, but not free from sin's presence. I can enjoy this NOW under the NT through Jesus Christ and the perfect rest he gives to those who cease from their own works and LOOK to Jesus Christ alone for my right to, life in the world to come.

Forgive me for rushing this and forgive the errors herein, for I'm in a hurry as always, but more so at the moment.

You have been, are being, and will continue to be judged by God until He determines judgment is over. You completely miss the real point. You think I believe the lost are lost because they broke the commandments of God, not so, we have all broken the commandments of God. The lost are lost because they reject the truth. Sinners can be forgiven for this or that act of sin, but those who reject the truth, reject the Holy Spirit of God and are beyond salvation regardless of claiming Christ as their Savior or not. No one will be lost because they sinned, for all have sinned. All who are lost will be so, because they rejected the truth. This is the underlying principle of sin that destroys, not this or that sinful act. Those who reject the authority of God's ten commandments will not be lost simply because they messed up and broke them, but rather because they rejected the truth of their authenticity and authority. This whole mess began when our parents chose to believe a lie, and for the lost it will all end because they chose to do the same.

2 These 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. 8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: 9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

It is the rejection of truth that is the sinners undoing. Unrighteousness is a result of the same. Those who reject the authenticity and authority of God's ten commandments have first and foremost rejected the truth of God's word attested to and promulgated by the Holy Spirit of God in and through His Son and our Savior Jesus Christ, and the holy men of God selected by Him unto the same. They testify of the authenticity and authority of the ten commandments, you and many others deny the same while claiming salvation in Christ who Himself has told you that His commands would not and could not change until all be fulfilled.

Mt 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

All who reject the truth, reject Jesus Christ as well, regardless of what they claim. Those who believe they can escape judgment in Christ while denying and rejecting the truth, are deceived. They will be lost. All who preach salvation by works will be lost, so to will all who have denied the truth of God's word while professing faith in Christ. It is not possible to have true faith in Christ while rejecting His testimony. All such faith will be weighed in the balances and revealed as dross.

Rev 21:6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely. 7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. 8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

The unbelieving and all liars will be lost. Rejection of truth, and belief in lies, are the foundation of all sin which produces death.

Mt 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. 19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

My Lord and Savior Jesus Christ is the truth, the way, and the life. All who contradict His testimony are unbelieving liars. They are none of His regardless of what they may profess. Rejection of truth is the fundamental and greatest unforgivable sin. I say Jesus and the scriptures teach us to keep all the commandments of God, you say I am a liar for that. You say the scriptures teach we no longer need to keep the commandments of God, or at least one of them, I say you are a liar for that. One of us is a lair, God will and is even now judging between us concerning this matter among others no doubt. You are not freed from the judgment of God simply because you profess Christ as your Savior. God's judgment begins at His own house. If God judges it to be so, you may be freed from the condemnation of God, not His judgment. All of God's ways are judgment, no one escapes His judgement, only His condemnation if they truly be in Christ Jesus our Lord and Savior.

1 Pe 4:17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God? 18 And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear? 19 Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator.

« Last Edit: Fri Oct 13, 2017 - 11:11:48 by Amo »

Offline 4WD

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Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
« Reply #31 on: Fri Oct 13, 2017 - 12:40:34 »
You have been, are being, and will continue to be judged by God until He determines judgment is over. You completely miss the real point. You think I believe the lost are lost because they broke the commandments of God, not so, we have all broken the commandments of God. The lost are lost because they reject the truth. Sinners can be forgiven for this or that act of sin, but those who reject the truth, reject the Holy Spirit of God and are beyond salvation regardless of claiming Christ as their Savior or not. No one will be lost because they sinned, for all have sinned. All who are lost will be so, because they rejected the truth. This is the underlying principle of sin that destroys, not this or that sinful act. Those who reject the authority of God's ten commandments will not be lost simply because they messed up and broke them, but rather because they rejected the truth of their authenticity and authority. This whole mess began when our parents chose to believe a lie, and for the lost it will all end because they chose to do the same.
The lost are lost because THEY sinned AND because they reject the redemption available through Jesus Christ.  It has nothing to do directly with our parents' sins or their parents' sin or with Adam's sin.

Offline Amo

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Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
« Reply #32 on: Fri Oct 13, 2017 - 14:06:46 »
The lost are lost because THEY sinned AND because they reject the redemption available through Jesus Christ.  It has nothing to do directly with our parents' sins or their parents' sin or with Adam's sin.

It has everything to do with their sin of believing a lie. Of course you don't believe the creation and or fall account anyway, so no surprise you have problems with the real cause of our situation. However you have chosen to define it for yourself. How does an evolutionist define the fall, and sin? What is your account of the story, since you do not believe scripture says, simply as it says.

Offline 4WD

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Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
« Reply #33 on: Fri Oct 13, 2017 - 18:12:22 »
How does an evolutionist define the fall, and sin?
First I will ask you what "fall" are you referring to.  Once you have identified that and given the biblical basis for that identification, then we can proceed.  Second, I would just note as I have said many, many times in the past, I do not advocate for evolution, biological evolution at least.  I have also said many, many times that I have no doubts that God could have used the evolutionary process in His plan for creation.  If He did, I have no problems with that.  Third, the question of "the fall" is totally unrelated to the question of biological evolution so your apparent connection is curious at best and scripturally ignorant at worst.

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Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
« Reply #34 on: Sat Oct 14, 2017 - 01:31:04 »
Keeping the Saturday Sabbath was the sign of the Mosaic Covenant between God and Jews only (Exodus 31:13,14,16,17).

i) "Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying, Verily my sabbaths ye shall keep: for it is a sign between ME and YOU throughout your generations." Exodus
31:13.

ii) "Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant." Exodus 31:16.

iii) "It is a sign between ME and the children of Israel forever: for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed." Exodus 31:17.

Also God reiterates this command in Ezekiel 20:12,20.

iv) "Moreover also I gave them my sabbaths, to be a sign between me and them."Ezekiel 20:12.

v) "And hallow my sabbaths; and they shall be a sign between me and you." Ezekiel 20:20.

Notice that God says on four occasions that sabbath-keeping is a sign between God and Israel, and that the Sabbath is to be kept throughout their generations, forever.

"Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth ... the giving of the law..." Romans 9:4.

 

     
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