Author Topic: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.  (Read 7513 times)

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Offline Amo

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Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
« Reply #35 on: Sat Oct 14, 2017 - 07:18:18 »
First I will ask you what "fall" are you referring to.  Once you have identified that and given the biblical basis for that identification, then we can proceed.  Second, I would just note as I have said many, many times in the past, I do not advocate for evolution, biological evolution at least.  I have also said many, many times that I have no doubts that God could have used the evolutionary process in His plan for creation.  If He did, I have no problems with that.  Third, the question of "the fall" is totally unrelated to the question of biological evolution so your apparent connection is curious at best and scripturally ignorant at worst.

If you don't know what is meant by the fall of humanity recorded in scripture shortly after the creation account, and the problems with that account if evolution is in fact true, then I am not the one who is scripturally ignorant. Even if I was ignorant, there is a big difference between simply not knowing, and choosing not to believe or know. The account of creation and the fall are given in scripture, some do not know because they have never read or heard the account, others do not know because they reject this testimony of scripture. One is simply ignorance, the other is chosen ignorance. The latter reject the word of God as a true or accurate account, and choose either their own wisdom or that of another over the same.

This is in fact exactly what happened at the fall of humanity. God told Adam and Eve one thing, Satan told them another, and they chose to believe Satan over God. All of humanity have been dying ever since, as a result of the same. Evolution of course requires countless deaths as part of its natural progression and development. Creation and evolution are two very different stories. One is given by God, the other is given by fallen humanity, no doubt under the heavy influence and guidance of the evil one himself. It is his purpose to counteract the creator at all times, and take as much of humanity as possible down with himself in the end. Make no mistake about it, the enemy of all souls has a vested interest in supporting the theory of evolution. It suits his purposes very well.

« Last Edit: Sat Oct 14, 2017 - 07:20:43 by Amo »

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Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
« Reply #35 on: Sat Oct 14, 2017 - 07:18:18 »

Offline 4WD

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Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
« Reply #36 on: Sat Oct 14, 2017 - 07:44:26 »
The problem here, Amo, is that so much of that is absolutely false.  The Bible does speak of Adam's fall.  It does not speak of humanity's fall being the result of Adam's fall.  That is perhaps one of the most disgusting and disastrous false doctrines that is proclaimed.  In fact the Bible doesn't ever really speak about humanity's fall.  It does speak about your fall, my fall and nearly every other fall.  But your fall  was charged to you, not Adam.  My fall was charged to me, not Adam.  Everyone's fall was/is charged to them.

Offline Amo

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Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
« Reply #37 on: Sat Oct 14, 2017 - 08:46:13 »
Keeping the Saturday Sabbath was the sign of the Mosaic Covenant between God and Jews only (Exodus 31:13,14,16,17).

i) "Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying, Verily my sabbaths ye shall keep: for it is a sign between ME and YOU throughout your generations." Exodus
31:13.

ii) "Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant." Exodus 31:16.

iii) "It is a sign between ME and the children of Israel forever: for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed." Exodus 31:17.

Also God reiterates this command in Ezekiel 20:12,20.

iv) "Moreover also I gave them my sabbaths, to be a sign between me and them."Ezekiel 20:12.

v) "And hallow my sabbaths; and they shall be a sign between me and you." Ezekiel 20:20.

Notice that God says on four occasions that sabbath-keeping is a sign between God and Israel, and that the Sabbath is to be kept throughout their generations, forever.

"Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth ... the giving of the law..." Romans 9:4.

I've been through all of these points over and over again on these boards. Of course the Sabbath was given to Israel, they were the chosen people of God during the old covenant established by God with Israel. The Sabbath is God's Sabbath. He instituted it at creation 2000 years before there ever was an Israel. Jesus stated, the Sabbath was made for man, not the Jews. This is of course true, since it was established at creation long before there ever was a Jew.

A blessing was pronounced upon all who would keep the Sabbath even during this old covenant with the Jews, which obviously means that God did not intend it for only the Jews, but for all who accepted His authority regarding the same.

Isa 56:1 Thus saith the Lord, Keep ye judgment, and do justice: for my salvation is near to come, and my righteousness to be revealed. 2 Blessed is the man that doeth this, and the son of man that layeth hold on it; that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and keepeth his hand from doing any evil. 3 Neither let the son of the stranger, that hath joined himself to the Lord, speak, saying, The Lord hath utterly separated me from his people: neither let the eunuch say, Behold, I am a dry tree. 4 For thus saith the Lord unto the eunuchs that keep my sabbaths, and choose the things that please me, and take hold of my covenant; 5 Even unto them will I give in mine house and within my walls a place and a name better than of sons and of daughters: I will give them an everlasting name, that shall not be cut off. 6 Also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to the Lord, to serve him, and to love the name of the Lord, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant; 7 Even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted upon mine altar; for mine house shall be called an house of prayer for all people. 8 The Lord God, which gathereth the outcasts of Israel saith, Yet will I gather others to him, beside those that are gathered unto him.

The above prophecy includes the gentiles who would be brought into Israel by our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, as Isaiah prophesied. This would of course be the gentiles brought in during the establishment if the new covenant Church, which is in fact the new covenant Israel of God. Those who are truly in Christ, have been grafted into the vine, not established as separate from it. The true Israel of God consists of all who are in Christ, they have become one in Him. The counterfeit Israel of God, and counterfeit Church of Christ maintain the wall of separation between Jew and Gentile which Christ came to break down. Thus do you reject the fourth commandment of God as unto Israel alone, no doubt you still consider the Jews who reject Christ to this day as the chosen of God also. Please do correct me if I am wrong on that last point.

Jesus kept the Sabbath and taught its proper observance, never hinting that it would be changed or done away with. To the contrary, our Lord and Savior emphatically stated that the commandments of God would not change at all until all be fulfilled. The New Testament says nowhere that such a change had taken place or was going to. To the contrary, all are admonished to keep the ten commandments of God up to the last book and chapter of the bible.

Isaiah prophecies that the Sabbath will be kept by all the nations of the saved in the new heaven and new earth.

Isa 66:18 For I know their works and their thoughts: it shall come, that I will gather all nations and tongues; and they shall come, and see my glory. 19 And I will set a sign among them, and I will send those that escape of them unto the nations, to Tarshish, Pul, and Lud, that draw the bow, to Tubal, and Javan, to the isles afar off, that have not heard my fame, neither have seen my glory; and they shall declare my glory among the Gentiles. 20 And they shall bring all your brethren for an offering unto the Lord out of all nations upon horses, and in chariots, and in litters, and upon mules, and upon swift beasts, to my holy mountain Jerusalem, saith the Lord, as the children of Israel bring an offering in a clean vessel into the house of the Lord. 21 And I will also take of them for priests and for Levites, saith the Lord. 22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the Lord, so shall your seed and your name remain. 23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the Lord. 24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

Isaiah again ties Sabbath observance to the bringing in of the gentiles which began with the gospel of Jesus Christ and will end at His second coming. After which time all will still come and worship God on His holy Sabbath. You choose to ignore all of this, and then present scripture stating that the Sabbath was given to Israel as proof that no one else need keep it anymore. This is what you choose, not what the whole of scripture presents. I tell you the truth though, you did not choose this of your own accord, God Himself has chosen the deception which those who refuse to listen to Him will believe. Isaiah prophesied the same in the same chapter I just quoted from, which points out that the converted Gentiles will keep the Sabbath of God. This prophecy is exactly about all who have professed Christ, but refuse God's word concerning His Sabbath. He has chosen the final delusion of all who trifle with His words.

Isaiah66 Thus saith the Lord, The heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool: where is the house that ye build unto me? and where is the place of my rest? 2 For all those things hath mine hand made, and all those things have been, saith the Lord: but to this man will I look, even to him that is poor and of a contrite spirit, and trembleth at my word. 3 He that killeth an ox is as if he slew a man; he that sacrificeth a lamb, as if he cut off a dog's neck; he that offereth an oblation, as if he offered swine's blood; he that burneth incense, as if he blessed an idol. Yea, they have chosen their own ways, and their soul delighteth in their abominations. 4 I also will choose their delusions, and will bring their fears upon them; because when I called, none did answer; when I spake, they did not hear: but they did evil before mine eyes, and chose that in which I delighted not.

Those who refuse the Lord's Sabbath and reject His fourth commandment, have chosen their own ways. The word of the Lord has spoken, but they will not hear. The Lord Himself has chosen the abomination of Sunday sacredness as the  greatest and final deception of those who will not hear and submit to His word. Fear and tremble now before the word of God and submit to it's rightful authority, turn from your own understanding and submit to the word of God. If we will tremble now before the word of God, we will not have to tremble in fear of the judgment of God when He returns. God has chosen the delusion. Before it is all over, the choice will be a simple one. Choose the day which God's authority has established for all of humanity, or choose the day which man's authority has already repeatedly tried to establish and will again in the future on a global level. Choose to submit to and worship God, or choose to submit to and worship humanity, or more simply yourself. That is all.

Mt 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

The word of God is filled with testimony regarding God's Sabbath. It says nowhere ever, that His Sabbath will be done away with. It was established at creation before there ever was a Jew. Non Jews were admonished to keep it during the old covenant and promised a blessing if they did. It's observance was prophetically spoken of in connection with the coming in of the Gentiles during the establishment of the new covenant, and also in the new heaven and the new earth. Jesus observed it, and taught it's proper observance which the Jews had desecrated and burdened. He taught that His law would not ever change until all be fulfilled. The scriptures admonish all to keep the commandments of God up to the last book and chapter of the bible. finally, the book of Revelation twice points out that the true followers of Christ who are the saints, keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. God has both spoken, and chosen the delusion of those who will not listen to His words.
« Last Edit: Sat Oct 14, 2017 - 08:50:57 by Amo »

Offline Amo

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Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
« Reply #38 on: Sat Oct 14, 2017 - 09:07:55 »
The problem here, Amo, is that so much of that is absolutely false.  The Bible does speak of Adam's fall.  It does not speak of humanity's fall being the result of Adam's fall.  That is perhaps one of the most disgusting and disastrous false doctrines that is proclaimed.  In fact the Bible doesn't ever really speak about humanity's fall.  It does speak about your fall, my fall and nearly every other fall.  But your fall  was charged to you, not Adam.  My fall was charged to me, not Adam.  Everyone's fall was/is charged to them.

Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Jms 1:13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: 14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. 15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

1 For 15:18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished. 19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable. 20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. 21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. 24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.


We are all sinners and die, due to the fall of humanity in their original parents Adam and Eve. Sin and death entered the world through them, righteousness and life entered the world again through Jesus Christ our Lord and Savior. Yes, evolution causes serious problems with this biblical scenario. No doubt this contributes to your problem with the same. Correct me if I am wrong. The implications and ramifications of evolution instead of creation go far deeper than just the creation issue.

Offline 4WD

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Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
« Reply #39 on: Sat Oct 14, 2017 - 09:58:04 »
God cried out to the Hebrews to stop with the very teaching that you are promoting
Eze 18:1  The word of the LORD came to me:
Eze 18:2  "What do you mean by repeating this proverb concerning the land of Israel, 'The fathers have eaten sour grapes, and the children's teeth are set on edge'?
Eze 18:3  As I live, declares the Lord GOD, this proverb shall no more be used by you in Israel.
Eze 18:4  Behold, all souls are mine; the soul of the father as well as the soul of the son is mine: the soul who sins shall die.

Eze 18:20  The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father, nor the father suffer for the iniquity of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.


You would do well to read and study the whole 18th chapter, for it declares the we are not charged with any others sins; but only our own.  That means that we are not charged with Adam's sin either.

And so many, you included, never quite get the jist of Romans 5:12 or the whole passage 5:12-21.  For there Paul shows clearly that whatever might have been attributed to Adam for the whole of mankind was negated and completely set aside by what Jesus did for the whole of mankind:

Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that because all have sinned:

So here again, why did death pass upon all men?  Quite simply BECAUSE all men have sinned.

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Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
« Reply #39 on: Sat Oct 14, 2017 - 09:58:04 »



Offline Amo

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Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
« Reply #40 on: Sat Oct 14, 2017 - 13:46:29 »
God cried out to the Hebrews to stop with the very teaching that you are promoting
Eze 18:1  The word of the LORD came to me:
Eze 18:2  "What do you mean by repeating this proverb concerning the land of Israel, 'The fathers have eaten sour grapes, and the children's teeth are set on edge'?
Eze 18:3  As I live, declares the Lord GOD, this proverb shall no more be used by you in Israel.
Eze 18:4  Behold, all souls are mine; the soul of the father as well as the soul of the son is mine: the soul who sins shall die.

Eze 18:20  The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father, nor the father suffer for the iniquity of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.


You would do well to read and study the whole 18th chapter, for it declares the we are not charged with any others sins; but only our own.  That means that we are not charged with Adam's sin either.

And so many, you included, never quite get the jist of Romans 5:12 or the whole passage 5:12-21.  For there Paul shows clearly that whatever might have been attributed to Adam for the whole of mankind was negated and completely set aside by what Jesus did for the whole of mankind:

Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that because all have sinned:

So here again, why did death pass upon all men?  Quite simply BECAUSE all men have sinned.

You should start another thread, this is quite off topic. What you speak above is no revelation. All die the first death caused by the sin of our first parents. None will die the second death because of Adam and Eve's or anyone else's sin, but only for their own. This only because they reject the salvation from sin offered by Jesus Christ. While the acts of Adam and Jesus affected all of humanity, all will choose for themselves what that effect will ultimately be. Adam's sin brought death upon all of humanity, but for the sacrifice of Christ all would remain condemned to death. Christ's sacrifice brought life and righteousness to all of humanity, but is not applied to the unbeliever, and even believers still die the first death as a result of Adam and Eve's sin. Death did not enter the world because all men have sinned, it entered the world through one man who sinned, and all of his offspring inherited his sinful nature. Christ did not come to save humanity, each of which were dying from their own sins, but humanity condemned to death by inheriting a sinful nature from their parents.

Our sinful nature will die one way or another. Either by choice now in Christ Jesus, or in the lake of fire at the second death because we rejected Christ Jesus' offer of reconciliation. Paul clearly states the case.

Rom 6:6 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? 2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? 3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? 4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. 5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: 6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. 7 For he that is dead is freed from sin. 8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him: 9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him. 10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God. 11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord. 12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof. 13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.

"The soul that sins shall die", either here and now by faith in Christ, or later in the lake of fire at the second death. Again though, this is somewhat off topic for this thread. Please do start another thread if you wish to continue this line of thought, or make it more relevant to the topic at hand.

Offline 4WD

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Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
« Reply #41 on: Sun Oct 15, 2017 - 06:42:22 »
You should start another thread, this is quite off topic. What you speak above is no revelation. All die the first death caused by the sin of our first parents.
Absolutely wrong.  Not even Adam and Eve died physically because they sinned; rather they died physically because God kicked them out of the garden and they no longer had access to the tree of Life (Gen 3:22). They died spiritually the very instant that they disobeyed God just as he told them.  And that is the same with you and me.

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Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
« Reply #42 on: Sun Oct 15, 2017 - 07:05:35 »

 Death did not enter the world because all men have sinned, it entered the world through one man who sinned, and all of his offspring inherited his sinful nature. Christ did not come to save humanity, each of which were dying from their own sins, but humanity condemned to death by inheriting a sinful nature from their parents.
The death that entered the world through one man was not physical death but rather spiritual death. And spiritual death spread to all men because all men sinned. Mankind is not condemned because he has a sinful nature.  He is condemned because he has sinned.  That sinful nature does not cease to exist when we have been redeemed; when we are saved.  It is still there.  And that "sinful nature" was in fact an integral part of creation; if not, then Adam would not have sinned. The "sinful nature" is simply human nature.  It is nothing more than the tendency of man to choose not to obey.  In fact that phrase "sinful nature" is not even found in the Bible except as contrivances in biased translations such as the NIV or the NIrV.

Offline Amo

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Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
« Reply #43 on: Sun Oct 15, 2017 - 11:22:47 »
Absolutely wrong.  Not even Adam and Eve died physically because they sinned; rather they died physically because God kicked them out of the garden and they no longer had access to the tree of Life (Gen 3:22). They died spiritually the very instant that they disobeyed God just as he told them.  And that is the same with you and me.

Yea, they died because they and all the rest of humanity after them were cut off from the tree of life because of sin. God will not sustain sin, therefore we die. God could sustain sin, but he will not. Adam and Eve and all after them died physical death because of sin. The sin of disobeying God. God told them they would die if they ate from a certain tree, they did eat from that tree, and death has been in the world ever since. This is hard for you as an evolutionist I know, nevertheless, this is what scripture plainly states.

Gen 2:16 And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: 17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Gen 3:2 And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden: 3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.


Nothing about spiritual death, you have added this yourself. The only reason they didn't die as soon as they ate, was because God still sustained them intending to implement the plan of salvation. Nevertheless, he removed them from the tree of life so they could no longer live forever apart from Christ. I understand you must argue against this as an evolutionist. Your precious theory requires an awful lot of physical death, along with an awful lot of extra biblical explanation since the scriptures never address anything like it. Therefore you must demand scripture refers to spiritual death, not physical death, though both are certainly implied. One leads to the other. I am not bound by the parameters of your chosen precious theory of evolution.
« Last Edit: Sun Oct 15, 2017 - 11:56:16 by Amo »

Offline Amo

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Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
« Reply #44 on: Sun Oct 15, 2017 - 11:53:19 »
The death that entered the world through one man was not physical death but rather spiritual death. And spiritual death spread to all men because all men sinned. Mankind is not condemned because he has a sinful nature.  He is condemned because he has sinned.  That sinful nature does not cease to exist when we have been redeemed; when we are saved.  It is still there.  And that "sinful nature" was in fact an integral part of creation; if not, then Adam would not have sinned. The "sinful nature" is simply human nature.  It is nothing more than the tendency of man to choose not to obey.  In fact that phrase "sinful nature" is not even found in the Bible except as contrivances in biased translations such as the NIV or the NIrV.

Again, I am not bound by the parameters of your chosen precious theory. Which theory guides many of your other conclusions which must line up with the same for it to remain true. God did not create sinners, He created perfect being with the ability to choose. Once humanity chose to listen to the evil one over God, they were helpless before the enemy of all souls. Save for God's intervention, all humanity would be slaves to sin and its author Satan. Even with God's intervention He already had to destroy the world once and everyone in it, before there was no one left to be saved. Of course you don't believe this, your chosen precious theory does not allow for it. Humanity was not created needing God's salvation from sin, this is a condition brought about by sin which requires the same, because humanity is not the same as it was before it sinned. We now have a sinful nature. Christ did not come to save Adam before the fall because he did not need saving at that time, now we all need salvation because sin entered the world through our first parents and death along with it. Sin produces death. This is the testimony of scripture which you must deny, because you deny the creation and flood account as well. If not for other reasons as well, as many others do who deny the truth.

Her 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; 15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage. 16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham. 17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people. 18 For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.

He did not come as Adam before the fall to save us, because Adam before the fall needed no saving. He came as the seed of Abraham, with the nature of humanity after the fall, whatever you want to call that since you don't seem to like fallen or sinful nature. This of course again, is necessary to you because of the extra biblical influence of your chosen precious theory which pretty much necessitates a whole lot of death to work. This most certainly was not God's original plan as stated in scripture though, which is obvious to all who hold the scriptures above all other authorities. You will argue against this as you must, if you will maintain your chosen precious theory. You will never properly understand the gospel of Jesus Christ while rejecting the creation account for the deceptive sophistries of the evolutionary theory.

Rev 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. 13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. 14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. 15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

You reject the creation account, and the fourth commandment of God. According to the above testimony, this will not go well for you. Do you not want access to the tree of life again?

Exo 20:8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: 10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: 11 For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

Offline 4WD

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Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
« Reply #45 on: Sun Oct 15, 2017 - 12:50:55 »
Her 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
You really think that passage is talking about physical death??  Pity !!

Offline Amo

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Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
« Reply #46 on: Sun Oct 15, 2017 - 17:50:12 »
You really think that passage is talking about physical death??  Pity !!

He took our nature, and He died physical as well as spiritual death in order to save humanity from both. Both were rendered unto death by sin, therefore our Savior condemned sin in the flesh, that the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled by those who walk according to the Spirit and not the flesh.

Rom 8:8 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: 4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. 8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

Offline RB

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Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
« Reply #47 on: Mon Oct 16, 2017 - 05:24:32 »
He took our nature, and He died physical as well as spiritual death in order to save humanity from both. Both were rendered unto death by sin, therefore our Savior condemned sin in the flesh, that the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled by those who walk according to the Spirit and not the flesh.
Prove what I highlighted in red that you said. What scriptures are you thinking of that allows you to say that Jesus died a spiritual death?
Quote from: Paul
2nd Corinthians 5:21~"For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him."
Spiritual death is the result of sin. Jesus' perfect obedience is what he offered to God for our sins, and that resulted in his death physically, but nowhere does it hints that he died spiritually, for if he had done so, that would have disqualified him being a Lamb WITHOUT spot or blemish. The JUST for the unjust, etc.  Maybe I'm missing something, help me out. If so, then I will humbly thank you for showing me a truth I'm not seeing. I say this is all sincerity~God is my witness.

So, in WHAT manner/sense did Jesus died spiritually? Scriptures, please.

It seems that this thread is heading in another direction, start another thread for your answer. Thanks, RB. 
« Last Edit: Mon Oct 16, 2017 - 05:31:16 by RB »

Offline Amo

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Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
« Reply #48 on: Fri Oct 20, 2017 - 10:33:13 »
Prove what I highlighted in red that you said. What scriptures are you thinking of that allows you to say that Jesus died a spiritual death? Spiritual death is the result of sin. Jesus' perfect obedience is what he offered to God for our sins, and that resulted in his death physically, but nowhere does it hints that he died spiritually, for if he had done so, that would have disqualified him being a Lamb WITHOUT spot or blemish. The JUST for the unjust, etc.  Maybe I'm missing something, help me out. If so, then I will humbly thank you for showing me a truth I'm not seeing. I say this is all sincerity~God is my witness.

So, in WHAT manner/sense did Jesus died spiritually? Scriptures, please.

It seems that this thread is heading in another direction, start another thread for your answer. Thanks, RB.

I suppose it depends upon what one believes spiritual death is.

Gal 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would. 18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law. 19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, 20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, 21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, 23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. 24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. 25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

Do you believe Jesus walked in the spirit? Do you believe He became fully man, and therefore needed to walk in the spirit as we also need to walk in the spirit? Those who walk in the spirit crucify the flesh as their Lord and Savior Jesus Christ did all His life long until it lead Him directly to the cross where He continued and finalized His spiritual death with His literal death. This I say in relation to His fully human nature, not His divine nature. He emptied Himself of the latter when He came to work out our salvation for us, as one of us. He did what we could not do, that we might be able to do the same through the power of the Holy Spirit unleashed to all who believe when He conquered sin in the flesh.

You are correct when you say spiritual death is a result of sin, and Jesus came to save us from that death, which leads to literal death. Jesus came to die the death which we could not, that we might also live the life which we could not in our fallen condition. That death was and is first and foremost spiritual, not physical. Fallen humanity lives for the flesh, that is for themselves above God and others. This is the nature they inherited from the fallen one who also lived for himself above God and others by exalting Himself to the rightful and only place of God, which is first in everything. When we chose to follow the father of lies over God, we became like him, living unto ourselves. Changing this requires a spiritual death in Christ who came to save us from this fallen condition, that we might once again put God in His proper place, first in everything, by obedience to Him. This as apposed to the disobedience of those who live for self first just as the father of lies. Jesus conquered sin in the flesh by leading the way and walking in the spirit all His life long in our fallen flesh. This, that we might follow Him and do the same. It's all about bringing all of creation back to the perfect order of God first in all things. It can be no other way, for He is first in all things, not because He tries to or needs to be, but simply because He is. He is, and there is no other apart from Him.

1 Cor 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. 24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. 28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
« Last Edit: Fri Oct 20, 2017 - 10:39:14 by Amo »

Offline Hobie

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Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
« Reply #49 on: Sat Jun 15, 2019 - 15:51:36 »
Please  provide evidence for these two statements.


Paul himself did not tell anyone to keep the Sabbath. It seemed to be a matter of indifference to him:

"Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day—things which are a mere shadow of what is to come, but the substance belongs to Christ." (Col 2:17-19).

Note that he says “Therefore let no one pass judgment on you”

He also says:
"For one person considers one day more important than another, while another person considers all days alike. Let everyone be fully persuaded in his own mind. Whoever observes the day observes it to the Lord" (Rom. 14:5–6).

Note also his final comment "Whoever observes the day [whichever he chooses] observes it to the Lord". It is not about a Jewish Law but about Jesus.
So did Paul keep the Sabbath, that tells you right there

Offline current occupant2

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Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
« Reply #50 on: Sat Jun 15, 2019 - 17:33:28 »
Neither is Saturday worship sanctioned in scripture. 

Please provide from the bible alone, your proof that saturday is the 7th day of the week.  - or that sunday is the 1st day of the week.    - or that friday is the 6th day of the week. 

Offline piecrust

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Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
« Reply #51 on: Sat Jun 15, 2019 - 19:34:53 »
Do people who worship on Saturday worship that day?  What about people who worship on Sunday?  Hopefully they worship the Lord!

Hopefully too they worship privately EVERY day.

You're right Sunday worship is not sanctioned.  However the Israelites were called to worship ON the first day of the week...Pentecost for example.




Offline Amo

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Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
« Reply #52 on: Sat Jun 15, 2019 - 19:56:48 »
Of course, the Jews who have been keeping the seventh day for four thousand years now, lost the seventh day, and Christians who have been keeping the first day for at least 1700 years now lost the first day. Is this correct?

Offline current occupant2

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Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
« Reply #53 on: Sat Jun 15, 2019 - 21:44:18 »
Of course, the Jews who have been keeping the seventh day for four thousand years now, lost the seventh day, and Christians who have been keeping the first day for at least 1700 years now lost the first day. Is this correct?


Yes, the Jews have changed their calendar in many ways.  You should study those changes. 


Offline Cathlodox

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Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
« Reply #54 on: Sun Dec 29, 2019 - 12:10:35 »
All "Moral" or "Natural" Commandments in the Law of Moses are indeed binding on Christians...
...Man is commanded by nature to honor God (god's) & dedicate some type to worship.
...Man was never commanded by nature or set aside a specific time to do this.

Thus, the 3rd Commandment is moral as far as every culture has set aside time to honor it's Deities...
...The Sabbath Commandment required knowledge of it to be communicated supernaturally.
....Like the Day of Atonement, New Moons, Passover, etc. AT SPECIFIC TIMES.

This makes the TIMING ceremonial and subject to change.

The other thing that appears to have been missed by those who adhere to Ellen White's interpretation is that all the examples given of the Apostles going to the Temple or Synagogue are NOT examples of Christian Assembly or Worship. These are only examples of Christians spreading the Gospel where Jew's gathered in mass.


Saint Paul was explicit that Christians were to "ASSEMBLE THEMSELVES TOGETHER".

Hebrews 10, 20
By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh; And having an high priest over the house of God; Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water. Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised;) And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works: Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching. For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

It is unlawful in Judaism to have "a collection" on the Sabbath...
...It's was the same way back then - at the time of the Apostles.
...Scripture is CLEAR that Christians assembled themselves together.

ON THE 1st DAY OF THE WEEK.

1st Corinthians 16, 1 - 3
That's the day the Christians assembled themselves together. Notice also that this isn't a request - it's an Apostolic COMMAND.

Furthermore Scripture is explicit that the assembly above WAS specifically Christian Worship.

1st Corinthians 11, 17
Now in this that I declare unto you I praise you not, that ye come together not for the better, but for the worse.
18 For first of all, when ye come together in the church, I hear that there be divisions among you; and I partly believe it.
19 For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you.
20 When ye come together therefore into one place, this is not to eat the Lord's supper.
21 For in eating every one taketh before other his own supper: and one is hungry, and another is drunken.
22 What? have ye not houses to eat and to drink in? or despise ye the church of God, and shame them that have not? what shall I say to you? shall I praise you in this? I praise you not.
23 For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, that the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread:
24 And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me.
25 After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, this cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me.
26 For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come.

27 Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.
28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup.
29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body
.

The above would NOT have been done in a Synagogue OR on the Sabbath for the simple fact practicing Jews didn't take up a collection on the Sabbath, period.

Christians meeting on Sunday is of Apostolic origin and claiming otherwise is simply an old anti-Trinitarian teaching.





Offline Hobie

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Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
« Reply #55 on: Mon Dec 30, 2019 - 09:43:17 »
All "Moral" or "Natural" Commandments in the Law of Moses are indeed binding on Christians...
...Man is commanded by nature to honor God (god's) & dedicate some type to worship.
...Man was never commanded by nature or set aside a specific time to do this.

Thus, the 3rd Commandment is moral as far as every culture has set aside time to honor it's Deities...
...The Sabbath Commandment required knowledge of it to be communicated supernaturally.
....Like the Day of Atonement, New Moons, Passover, etc. AT SPECIFIC TIMES.

This makes the TIMING ceremonial and subject to change.

The other thing that appears to have been missed by those who adhere to Ellen White's interpretation is that all the examples given of the Apostles going to the Temple or Synagogue are NOT examples of Christian Assembly or Worship. These are only examples of Christians spreading the Gospel where Jew's gathered in mass.


Saint Paul was explicit that Christians were to "ASSEMBLE THEMSELVES TOGETHER".

Hebrews 10, 20
By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh; And having an high priest over the house of God; Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water. Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised;) And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works: Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching. For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

It is unlawful in Judaism to have "a collection" on the Sabbath...
...It's was the same way back then - at the time of the Apostles.
...Scripture is CLEAR that Christians assembled themselves together.

ON THE 1st DAY OF THE WEEK.

1st Corinthians 16, 1 - 3
That's the day the Christians assembled themselves together. Notice also that this isn't a request - it's an Apostolic COMMAND.

Furthermore Scripture is explicit that the assembly above WAS specifically Christian Worship.

1st Corinthians 11, 17
Now in this that I declare unto you I praise you not, that ye come together not for the better, but for the worse.
18 For first of all, when ye come together in the church, I hear that there be divisions among you; and I partly believe it.
19 For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you.
20 When ye come together therefore into one place, this is not to eat the Lord's supper.
21 For in eating every one taketh before other his own supper: and one is hungry, and another is drunken.
22 What? have ye not houses to eat and to drink in? or despise ye the church of God, and shame them that have not? what shall I say to you? shall I praise you in this? I praise you not.
23 For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, that the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread:
24 And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me.
25 After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, this cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me.
26 For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come.

27 Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.
28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup.
29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body
.

The above would NOT have been done in a Synagogue OR on the Sabbath for the simple fact practicing Jews didn't take up a collection on the Sabbath, period.

Christians meeting on Sunday is of Apostolic origin and claiming otherwise is simply an old anti-Trinitarian teaching.
How so, its in the Ten Commandments.

Offline Jaime

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Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
« Reply #56 on: Mon Dec 30, 2019 - 11:01:09 »
Why is the THIRD commandment mentioned as the Sabbath commandment? It was the fourth.

Apparently the Carholic list of ten commandments is different than the scriptural list. Does this seem prudent?

https://www.preparingforeternity.com/biblevscat.htm

Does anyone know the reason for the elaborate change?
« Last Edit: Mon Dec 30, 2019 - 16:39:07 by Jaime »

Offline Cathlodox

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Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
« Reply #57 on: Mon Dec 30, 2019 - 22:04:09 »
Hobbie,

The Command to set aside time for God is without doubt part of the Moral or Natural Law...
...This is observed in any culture throughout all of recorded history.
...The specific TIMING of observance is absolutely ceremonial.

Here is how it went down:

"Then said the Lord unto Moses, Behold, I will rain bread from heaven for you; and the people shall go out and gather a certain rate every day, that I may prove them, whether they will walk in my law, or no." Exodus 16,4

Them / They = The Children of Israel and it's at the point of Exodus 16,4 that we 1st find out that God is going to test "the Children of Israel" to see if "THEY" will do what God tells THEM to do.

The Children of Israel didn't know about the Sabbath prior to being informed of it.

Exodus 10,26
Our cattle also shall go with us; there shall not an hoof be left behind; for thereof must we take to serve the Lord our God; and we know not with what we must serve the Lord, until we come thither

So, they didn't know how or in what way they were to worship.

As for the point made about the Catholic Church "renaming" or rearranging the Commandments I'm afraid they were here 1st - by a long shot. If someone wants to following the Talmudic numbering of the 10 Commandments I have no problem with that. Luther numbered the Commandments like the CC did after his separation from the CC.


Offline Jaime

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Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
« Reply #58 on: Tue Dec 31, 2019 - 06:17:08 »
The question is WHY were the 10 commandments renumbered and shuffled? The warning of Daniel 7:25 comes to mind about someone coming and wanting to change set times and laws.

One thing about the Exodus adventure, God not only got the Israelites out of Egypt, he had to get Egypt out of THEM after 400 years.
« Last Edit: Tue Dec 31, 2019 - 06:25:17 by Jaime »

Offline Cathlodox

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Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
« Reply #59 on: Tue Dec 31, 2019 - 07:40:36 »
What do you mean shuffled and renumbered?

Generally, if you trace SDA theology back to it's roots it's discovered that ultimately they claim "Jesus" was who changed times and laws. I'm not being sarcastic here in the least. Traditional or Historic SDA's don't believe Jesus was God (Like the Father is God) therefore the Trinity is false and given that Jesus didn't have the Authority to fulfill the Sabbath day.

The SDA Pioneers called this quandary 'The Sabbath God Vs. The Sunday God'.

The SDA Pioneers were speaking of "THE FATHER" and the concept was that the Sabbath God was a flesh, bone & functional organ hominid God while the Sunday God was a false 'spirit god' that lacked a body of flesh with intestines. The SDA's would publish articles in the Church papers alerting the reader to know the difference between the Sabbath God and the Sunday God and the critical importance of KNOWING Father God was a flesh God.

http://documents.adventistarchives.org/Periodicals/RH/RH18540307-V05-07.pdf





« Last Edit: Tue Dec 31, 2019 - 08:05:01 by Cathlodox »

Offline Jaime

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Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
« Reply #60 on: Tue Dec 31, 2019 - 08:12:45 »
Shuffled and renumbered as in the link I provided. Surely you see that happened, why? Compare the Catechism list to the scriptural list. Shuffled and renumbered, yes. Again WHY?

By the way I am not SDA. I worship on Sunday. I belong to a congregation of the Church of Christ. I DO have nagging questions about my tribe’s explanation of Sunday. I think it is imperative to understand the history of this.

It was my understanding that SDAs believe that Sunday worship is the mark of the beast, and the Papacy is the Beast that changed times and laws.
« Last Edit: Tue Dec 31, 2019 - 08:28:18 by Jaime »

Offline beam

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Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
« Reply #61 on: Tue Dec 31, 2019 - 08:57:17 »
Quote
By the way I am not SDA. I worship on Sunday. I belong to a congregation of the Church of Christ. I DO have nagging questions about my tribe’s explanation of Sunday. I think it is imperative to understand the history of this.
Many Sunday churches claim that Sunday is the Sabbath.  Because most people do not read and study scripture those churches get by with a complete falsehood.   The new covenant has nothing to say about the "keeping" of days.   The early church did choose Sunday as the day of corporate worship.  There is absolutely nothing wrong with that choice.  What is wrong is the fact that they defend it as THE day because of some references from the New Testament like giving donations on the first day of the week, meeting on the first day and Jesus resurrection.  Those verses are a far cry from a demand to worship on that day each week.   Tithing is another example of the church's way to fill the coffers.  There is nothing in the new covenant about tithing and there are not many Christians that would fall under the old covenant tithing laws anyway.  Only those who raised crops and or livestock were required to pay the tax.   Jesus and the disciples would not have been tithe payers under the old covenant law.  Study scripture instead of taking anyone's word.

Offline Jaime

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Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
« Reply #62 on: Tue Dec 31, 2019 - 09:48:39 »
In my view Jesus raised the Bar on giving when he said give as you have been prospered. Same as he raised the bar on do not kill. He said do not even harbor anger in your heart. It’s a whole lot easier to just not kill. Jesus RAISED the bar, he didn’t eliminate the bar.
« Last Edit: Tue Dec 31, 2019 - 11:36:46 by Jaime »

Offline winsome

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Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
« Reply #63 on: Tue Dec 31, 2019 - 14:44:26 »
Shuffled and renumbered as in the link I provided. Surely you see that happened, why? Compare the Catechism list to the scriptural list. Shuffled and renumbered, yes. Again WHY?

The Ten Commandments were not shuffled and renumbered.
If you look at the list in Deuteronony (and Exodus is similar), there are actually 12 commandments.
Deuteronomy 5:7-21
1. You shall have no other gods before me. 
2. You shall not make for yourself a graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is on the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth;
3. you shall not bow down to them or serve them; ……
4 You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain:……..
5. Observe the sabbath day, to keep it holy, as the LORD your God commanded you. ...
6. Honor your father and your mother, ……
7. You shall not kill.
8. Neither shall you commit adultery.
9. Neither shall you steal.
10. Neither shall you bear false witness against your neighbor.
11. Neither shall you covet your neighbor's wife;
12. you shall not desire your neighbor's house, his field, or his manservant, or his maidservant, his ox, or his ass, or anything that is your neighbors.

In order to get to ten some of the commandments have to be conflated into one.
Catholics, Jews and Lutherans conflate 1,2 &3, presumably because they all concern the same topic. Most Protestants (except Lutherans) & Orthodox conflate 2&3, and 11&12 (as do Jews)
 Jews make up 10 because they treat the preceding verse “I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage” as the first “saying” or “declaration”
 (see - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ten_Commandments).

The Catholic list was (I think) derived from Deuteronomy.All lists have all the same commands in them except Christians do not include Ex 20:2 or Dt 5:6 as the Jews do.

P.S. The link you gave is a typical protestant distortion of the truth.
 
« Last Edit: Tue Dec 31, 2019 - 14:47:13 by winsome »

Offline winsome

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Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
« Reply #64 on: Tue Dec 31, 2019 - 14:50:17 »

How so, its in the Ten Commandments.
So what? The Ten Commandments was Covenant Law (legal code) for the Jews (the Mosaic Covenant) and as such Christians are not subject to it.

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Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
« Reply #65 on: Tue Dec 31, 2019 - 17:00:22 »
In my view Jesus raised the Bar on giving when he said give as you have been prospered.
Maybe you should check scripture before either paraphrasing or quoting something that is not true.


Quote
Same as he raised the bar on do not kill. He said do not even harbor anger in your heart. It’s a whole lot easier to just not kill. Jesus RAISED the bar, he didn’t eliminate the bar.
Matt9:21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.   Yep, Jesus did raise the bar.  Do you think Jesus is asking each of us to do the same.  He did say to the young man:  if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.    There is no commandment in the 10 commandments that indicated that Israelites had to give.   Now, nobody is under the 10 commandments or the laws dictated to Moses by God.

Offline Jaime

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Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
« Reply #66 on: Tue Dec 31, 2019 - 17:15:29 »
I’m sorry, it was Paul in 1Corinthians 16:2 that said that. HE raised the bar.

Giving 10% would be much easier than deciding to what extent I had been prospered. I consider 10% to be a guideline and as I have been prospered as WAY more of a challenge to our conscience. It’s like comparing avoiding murder vs harboring anger in my heart. I can avoid murder all day every day, but not so much with harboring anger.

I would have assumed a picky person like you would have cited the 1 Corinthian verse to dispell my untruth, inadvertant as it was.

Jesus was indeed about raising the bar. He did the same thing with the act of adultry and lust in the heart. It’s WAY harder to not have lust in one’s heart than it is to not commit the act of adultry. He properly filled full the Spirit of the law to the shell or letter of the law, that which the pharisees had emptied.
« Last Edit: Tue Dec 31, 2019 - 17:31:47 by Jaime »

Offline beam

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Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
« Reply #67 on: Wed Jan 01, 2020 - 07:45:00 »
I’m sorry, it was Paul in 1Corinthians 16:2 that said that. HE raised the bar.

Giving 10% would be much easier than deciding to what extent I had been prospered. I consider 10% to be a guideline and as I have been prospered as WAY more of a challenge to our conscience. It’s like comparing avoiding murder vs harboring anger in my heart. I can avoid murder all day every day, but not so much with harboring anger.

I would have assumed a picky person like you would have cited the 1 Corinthian verse to dispell my untruth, inadvertant as it was.
Assumed???  Why would you assume?  I did think of Paul's admonition on how to support the spreading of the Gospel.  So, now, in your eyes, I am "picky" because I cited an error from Jamie.  I would be thanking you for setting me straight when I error, but no I am just being "picky".

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Jesus was indeed about raising the bar. He did the same thing with the act of adultry and lust in the heart. It’s WAY harder to not have lust in one’s heart than it is to not commit the act of adultry. He properly filled full the Spirit of the law to the shell or letter of the law, that which the pharisees had emptied.
If Jesus had meant He "filled full the law" He would have said that was what He did.  What He said was He came to fulfil the prophecies about Him and fulfil the law period.  Changing the meaning of what Jesus said certainly is not in anyone's best interest.   Paul confirmed that Jesus brought the old covenant law to an end when he wrote Gal 3:19 Why, then, was the law given at all? It was added because of transgressions until the Seed to whom the promise referred had come.
And then there is another clinching verse found in Eph2:14 For he himself is our peace, who has made the two groups one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, 15 by setting aside in his flesh the law with its commands and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new humanity out of the two, thus making peace,

I pray this helps.

Offline Jaime

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Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
« Reply #68 on: Wed Jan 01, 2020 - 07:54:50 »
Filling full the law with the Spirit is exactly what Jesus did in the entirety of Mathew chapter 5, the sermon on the mount. Filling full the law IS fulfilling the Law that the pharisee had emptied. He did not come to abolish the Law. I pray this helps as well.

I probably took your tone  to be too judgmental. I apologize for saying you were picky. At the time it just seemed a little snarky to me. It probably wasn’t your intention. I really thought you would have brought up 1 Cor 16:2 as Paul’s statement to correct me if correcting me was your aim. But there I go assuming again!

For us as Christians, we are free from the law of sin and death.

By the way fill full and fullfill mean exactly the same thing in Hebrew or Aramaic.
« Last Edit: Wed Jan 01, 2020 - 08:32:30 by Jaime »

Offline Cathlodox

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Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
« Reply #69 on: Wed Jan 01, 2020 - 10:00:21 »
Quote from: winsome
So what? The Ten Commandments was Covenant Law (legal code) for the Jews (the Mosaic Covenant) and as such Christians are not subject to it.

Christians are under the Law of Christ according to Scripture...
...Which is ALL the moral or natural law found in the law of Moses.
...With additional commands added in.

What Christians are in no way obligated to observe are the "ceremonial aspects" of the Law of Moses or ceremonial or ritualistic laws that predated Moses.

In the first 70 years of the Christian Church there was much liberty granted to Christians who came from a Jewish background - these Christians continued to frequent the Synagogue and Temple AND even participate in Jewish religious practices - these Jews were green lighted by the Church to do this PROVIDED that they DIDN'T teach that those practices, as found in the law of Moses, were essential to Salvation.

The weekly (sabbaths), the Monthly (new moons) and yearly (solemnities such as the Passover, Day of Atonement, etc) are identified as "Shadows"  along with animal sacrifices & circumcision.

As Saint Paul explicitly said:

"We have an altar, whereof they have no right to eat which serve the tabernacle."

The whole context of the Book of Hebrews is against the Judaizers (the Party of the circumcision) who maintained that to be saved a Christian must be circumcised, observe the Jewish Sabbath, eat kosher, etc, etc, etc. The Book of Hebrews is clear that if a person thinks observing ANY of that stuff saves them they are not even entitled to take Christian communion.