Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.

[beam]

It is not beyond our pay grade at all.  It is not at all unknown.  Paul described all of that quite nicely in his writings, most specifically in Romans 9-11.

Thanks, I will look into those chapters.

[Jaime]

Without those chapters, pretty much nothing about the Jews makes any sense. And for some reason some of the most ignored verses in the NT.

[beam]

Again Beam, I wasn’t and haven’t been talking about salvation. I am talking about COULD the Jews have obeyed in order to be blessed by God and not cursed? I say YES or God was a liar in making the promise to them. Would it have to be perfect obedience? Obviously NOT if they are incapable of that.

Apparently not Jamie.  If they could have God would not have given Jeremiah a prophecy about a new and better covenant and all the prophecies about Jesus coming to give them another chance that are found in the Old Testament.  God's curse was always temporary if He really did curse them.  The Israelites liked to put the blame on others, but they brought their troubles on themselves.  God allowed bad things to happen and if that was a curse on them...?  After they built the golden calf God was going to destroy all of them.  Moses pleaded with Him not to and He relented.  Had God destroyed the Israelites there at Sinai would Jesus have come through some other lineage?  Is that a question that Paul answered in Romans 9-11?  I understand you are not talking about salvation, but did their failure keep all the laws keep them from being saved?

[Michael2012]

Exactly Michael.  If only those who still believe Christians are under the laws of the Sinai covenant would read what that covenant was all about they would see it in a different light.  God, in EX19:5-6, speaking directly to Moses told Moses what the covenant was all about.   5 Now if you obey me fully and keep my covenant, then out of all nations you will be my treasured possession. Although the whole earth is mine, 6 you[a] will be for me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.” These are the words you are to speak to the Israelites.’   Not one word that God spoke in verses 5 and 6 said that the covenant would save one Israelite.  Salvation came to the Israelites just as it did for Abraham.  The covenant was not about salvation.


And yet we have the leader of the SDA church, Ellen White, telling us that we will be lost if we do not observe the Sabbath.  Old covenant Sabbath keeping had nothing to do with salvation.  How did it morph into being a salvational issue?  It all happened by a group of people that didn't understand scripture.  Today, no matter how much scripture we present to the otherwise, blinders are so perfectly fitted on Adventists they keep most of them from seeing the truth.

I don't quite get it, if there are Christians who believe to still be under the laws of the Sinai covenant. Perhaps they were taught wrongly and had been deceived, or had not been reading the scriptures. For it is made clear in the scriptures that the Sinai covenant, that is, the covenant God made with Israel when He took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, was replaced by a new covenant, whose mediator is Jesus Christ. Paul had spoken of these two covenants, the former being that which that killeth and the new being that which gives life. The Christian would have no reason to deny this as it is clear in scriptures. I am inclined to believe that no sane man would choose to be under that which brings him condemnation and death over that which gives life, more so, teach and try to convince people that they should believe that Christians are still under the Law or the Sinai covenant, unless they are deceived or brain washed.

Of course it is not difficult at all to discern that the teaching that the Christian will be lost if he/she do not observe the Sabbath, is a false teaching. It is false in that it simply isn't found in scriptures. I am inclined to conclude that those who believes this teaching that you say of Ms. Ellen White have such concern of the Sabbath keeping as essential to their being saved. This leads me to think that should they not observe it as they thought how it should be observed, they will lose their salvation. I wonder if they had the same concern with the rest of God's commandments.

And saying that their salvation will be lost by that, it is implied that they had at the start attained to salvation. And I'd guess that in the start, they attained salvation through the only way it could be attained, that is through faith, repenting unto God and towards faith in Jesus Christ. I'm thinking, if this were the case, how is it that they believe that they can lose it by not keeping or not observing the Sabbath? For if at all it is lost and is lost by that, how can they attain to it again? And if by not observing the Sabbath they lose salvation, that would mean that they will likewise lose it by not observing any other commandment of God. That's really a most sad and most miserable situation, no different from the Jews, who had fallen from grace, by choosing to be under the Law. Now, if they are like the Jews in that sense, and we read in scriptures that the Jews are called to repentance unto God and towards faith in Jesus Christ for salvation, should we not then tell them to repent unto God and towards faith Jesus Christ or remind them from whence they begun, that is, in the Spirit?

[Jaime]

I am not a Sabbatarian, but if one is taught like the SDAs that the Papacy is the beast and Sunday worship is the mark of the beast and Sabbath worship is the mark or seal of God, it’s not hard to see how they think.

[Michael2012]

Again Beam, I wasn’t and haven’t been talking about salvation. I am talking about COULD the Jews have obeyed in order to be blessed by God and not cursed? I say YES or God was a liar in making the promise to them. Would it have to be perfect obedience? Obviously NOT if they are incapable of that.

As for me, and as I said Jaime, in my take, it presents the principle/law, that obedience brings about blessing and disobedience brings about curse.

But to your satisfaction (I hope), let me point out what is said in the scriptures which refutes your belief regarding that.

Deut.11: 26 Behold, I set before you this day a blessing and a curse;

27 A blessing, if ye obey the commandments of the Lord your God, which I command you this day:

28 And a curse, if ye will not obey the commandments of the Lord your God, but turn aside out of the way which I command you this day, to go after other gods, which ye have not known.

Verse 27 says "if you obey the commandments". Would that not suggest all commandments and not some? If you go to verse 8, this is clear, for it says " Therefore shall ye keep all the commandments which I command you this day, that ye may be strong, and go in and possess the land, whither ye go to possess it;"

Would it have to be perfect obedience? The answer is clear Jaime. YES.

[Jaime]

Would the directive be from God to a people incapable of compliance? Apparently so. Odd wouldn’t you say! I say God would know their hearts as he does today. Wouldn’t have to be absolute perfect obedience. Why would he require perfect obedience from beings incapable of perfect obedience? God’s graciousness was present in the OT as well. God is unchanging.

[Amo]

Not really.

Angel of the Lord, it says. That in itself makes some distinction between the angel and the Lord. To deny that is a dishonest reading of scriptures.

Now concerning the Sabbath day worship issue, I'd like you to consider what the scriptures tells us in Colossians 2 about Christians:

8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:

11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:

12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.

16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:

Why then judge others in respect of the Sabbath?

So, are you saying there was an angel and the Lord in the midst of the bush? The scripture does not say that either. Perhaps the purpose of the scripture was to point out that the angel of the Lord is the Lord, which seems to be suggested in other scriptures as well.

Now concerning your comments regarding Colossians, are you suggesting that one of the ten commandments spoken by the mouth of God and written with His own finger are in the category of philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world?

The ten commandments are not addressed at all in Colossians 2. Colossians 2 is addressing philosophy, vain deceit, traditions, and the rudiments of this world. God's sabbath is none of those things. Nor is it any of the things pointed out which I highlighted in the following verses of Colossians 2.

Col 2:16  Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: 17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ. 18 Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind, 19 And not holding the Head, from which all the body by joints and bands having nourishment ministered, and knit together, increaseth with the increase of God. 20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances, 21 (Touch not; taste not; handle not; 22 Which all are to perish with the using;) after the commandments and doctrines of men? 23 Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body; not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh.

God's sabbath has nothing to do with the commandments of men. It is no surprise that those who reject the authority of God's sabbath, twist a scripture definitely referring to ceremonial sabbaths into one referring to God's sabbath, while they twist other scriptures referring to God's sabbath into ones referring to ceremony alone.

You should heed the words of the first angel given in Revelation 14 -

Rev 14:6  And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people, 7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.

God gave us His Sabbath to do this very thing.

Exo 20:8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: 10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: 11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

All those who reject God's sabbath reject the basic fundamentals of the gospel of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ Himself created the world and established His sabbath at the end of that creation as a day of worship and a memorial of our Creator. The everlasting gospel includes this most basic worship and acknowledgment of humanities proper relation to the God they profess.

Put down the golden cup of abominations, and stop partaking of the wine of Babylon that is within it. Abandon the man of sin, and the times and laws he has set up in the place of God's. Come out of Babylon and worship God, not the beast which she rides. Worship God through obedience to His times and law, not the beast through obedience to the times and laws of the man of sin. Would you be in the new heaven and new earth, to partake of the tree of life once again.

Rev 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. 13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. 15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie. 16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.

Isa 66:22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain. 23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.

Worship God on the day He has sanctified and chosen as a sign that He is the one who sancitifies you.

Gen 2:1 Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them. 2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made. 3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

Exo 31:13  Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying, Verily my sabbaths ye shall keep: for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that ye may know that I am the LORD that doth sanctify you.

God alone can sanctify and save humanity. Worship Him in following the living example of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. Abandon the man of sin and his institution Babylon the Great, which rides the beast unto perdition. Abandon the abominations found in her wine which testify that sinners may sanctify a day by observing it in place of the day which God Himself sanctified. Accept the sanctification of God in and through the obedience of His Son Jesus Christ, who alone can sanctify humanity, and abandon the false gospel of humanity itself sanctifying and or saving itself by their own gospel and actions. Emphasis in the following quote is mine.

CATECHISM OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH.

2186 Those Christians who have leisure should be mindful of their brethren who have the same needs and the same rights, yet cannot rest from work because of poverty and misery. Sunday is traditionally consecrated by Christian piety to good works and humble service of the sick, the infirm, and the elderly. Christians will also sanctify Sunday by devoting time and care to their families and relatives, often difficult to do on other days of the week. Sunday is a time for reflection, silence, cultivation of the mind, and meditation which furthers the growth of the Christian interior life.

2187 Sanctifying Sundays and holy days requires a common effort. Every Christian should avoid making unnecessary demands on others that would hinder them from observing the Lord's Day. Traditional activities (sport, restaurants, etc.), and social necessities (public services, etc.), require some people to work on Sundays, but everyone should still take care to set aside sufficient time for leisure. With temperance and charity the faithful will see to it that they avoid the excesses and violence sometimes associated with popular leisure activities. In spite of economic constraints, public authorities should ensure citizens a time intended for rest and divine worship. Employers have a similar obligation toward their employees.

2188 In respecting religious liberty and the common good of all, Christians should seek recognition of Sundays and the Church's holy days as legal holidays. They have to give everyone a public example of prayer, respect, and joy and defend their traditions as a precious contribution to the spiritual life of society. If a country's legislation or other reasons require work on Sunday, the day should nevertheless be lived as the day of our deliverance which lets us share in this "festal gathering," this "assembly of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven."[125]

Humanity cannot sanctify anything in and of themselves. They cannot sanctify Sundays by doing or not doing anything on that day. Nor can they be sanctified in any way shape or form by adhering to man made traditions regardless of any claims to the contrary.

God alone can sanctify anything. He has sanctified the seventh day and it is so. He has called His own to rest in His sanctification on that day. Those who obey by faith may be sanctified by God in and though our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ who sanctified His body once and for all in His life, death, and resurrection. Salvation has come though our Lord's obedience. Following in His footsteps by faith alone can sanctify or save anyone. None will sanctify or save themselves by their own actions in relation to things which God never commanded or called for in His faithful. Such is the false gospel of the man of sin, his institution Babylon the Great, and his law enforcer the final beast of biblical prophecy.

Rom 5:17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.) 18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. 19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Heb 10:5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me: 6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure. 7 Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God. 8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law; 9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second. 10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. 11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins: 12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God; 13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool. 14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified. 15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before, 16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them; 17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more. 18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.

If you are of the body of Christ and follow in His footsteps by faith, then you are sanctified and saved. He alone can and will sanctify those who are willing to pick up their crosses and follow Him. The laws of God were in His heart and mind, and He did fulfill them in our human flesh. The true gospel is about putting those same laws into the hearts and minds of HIs followers unto sanctification by faith. The false gospel and wine of Babylon are about sanctification and salvation through human effort and compliance to human traditions. Cain and Abel both brought offerings before God, but only one was accepted being by faith in and therefore obedience to the command and example of God Himself. Which was an offering pointing to the pure and unadulterated faith and obedience of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ Himself. An obedience even unto death.

Php 2:5  Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: 6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: 7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: 8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. 9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: 10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; 11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Flee from Babylon. You cannot sanctify a day or anything else for that matter, by your actions or faith in things that are not of God. Jesus Christ is of God. Pick up your crosses and follow Him. Examine His life and teachings and follow them. Paul is not your savior. Submit his writings to the life and teachings of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, not the other way around, or you will be lost.

Joh 12:44 Jesus cried and said, He that believeth on me, believeth not on me, but on him that sent me. 45 And he that seeth me seeth him that sent me. 46 I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness. 47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world. 48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day. 49 For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak. 50 And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.

Heb 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, 2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; 3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

Get your priorities straight. Submit all the words of apostles and prophets to the words of Jesus Christ who alone has, does, and will sanctify His own. Do not submit the gospel of Jesus Christ to the many different interpretations of the words of prophets and apostles, but submit all to the words of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

Joh 14:6  Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Mar 2:27 And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath: 28 Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath.

God's sabbath was established by Jesus Christ our Lord who is verily God, at the end of creation for humanity. He taught its proper observance while here as one of us, predicted its observance after his death, and proclaimed that His law would not change until heaven and earth passed. Follow Jesus Christ, not one of the numerous false interpretations of for the most part, the words of the apostle Paul. Heed the following words from Paul himself.

1Co 1:12 Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ 13 Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul? 14 I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius; 15 Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name.

Listen to Paul. Judge his words by Jesus' words, not the other way around.

2Pe 3:14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless. 15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; 16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

Heed the above warning from Peter concerning the words of the apostle Paul. Examine Paul's words in light of and contrast to the words of Jesus Christ that you may properly divide the word of God. Not the other way around which leads to destruction.



 

[Amo]

Hi Cathlodox,
I don't disagree with any of that.

I usually approach SDAs and their Sabbath keeping by pointing out that the Old Law (of the Mosaic Covenant) has been abolished/abrogated/ended and that includes the Ten Commandments as Covenant law. The moral commands that are codified in the Ten Commandments are still applicable because they reflect the Natural Moral Law which exists for all people for all time - which I think you were referring to in reply #54. That approach also covers the making of images but I have no quarrel with your approach.

The Catechism of The Council of Trent puts it well: But, lest the people, aware of the abrogation of the Mosaic Law, may imagine that the precepts of the Decalogue are no longer obligatory, it should be taught that when God gave the Law to Moses, He did not so much establish a new code, as render more luminous that divine light by which the depraved morals and long-continued perversity of man had at that time almost obscured. It is most certain that we are not bound to obey the Commandments because they were delivered by Moses, but because they are implanted in the hearts of all, and have been explained and confirmed by Christ our Lord. 
(my emboldening)

Many of us do not worship or believe according to The Council of Trent. The commandments including the fourth did not come to us through Moses but rather through the voice and hand of God Himself. God never did away with any of His commandments according to scripture. If He had, who are you or anyone else to say which ones He did and which ones He did not without a scripture to support such?Not only have Sunday keepers done this in taking it upon themselves to tell others what God has changed and what He has not according to their own understanding, but they have presumed to force such upon all through civil legislation. Insisting that God not only changed the day of observance, but apparently appointed them to force compliance to their self proclaimed change upon all. Go figure.

[beam]

I am not a Sabbatarian, but if one is taught like the SDAs that the Papacy is the beast and Sunday worship is the mark of the beast and Sabbath worship is the mark or seal of God, it’s not hard to see how they think.

Absolutely Jamie.  That is what I was taught and by the Grace of God after serving the SDA church faithfully for 37 years the cracks I had observed during those years began to open so that I could plainly see the discrepancies.  Careful study and the help of those who left the church before me have brought me into the light of the true Gospel of Jesus.   
We are to go tell it on the mountain and over the plains.  That is why I am here pounding the keys.

[Amo]

I don't quite get it, if there are Christians who believe to still be under the laws of the Sinai covenant. Perhaps they were taught wrongly and had been deceived, or had not been reading the scriptures. For it is made clear in the scriptures that the Sinai covenant, that is, the covenant God made with Israel when He took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, was replaced by a new covenant, whose mediator is Jesus Christ. Paul had spoken of these two covenants, the former being that which that killeth and the new being that which gives life. The Christian would have no reason to deny this as it is clear in scriptures. I am inclined to believe that no sane man would choose to be under that which brings him condemnation and death over that which gives life, more so, teach and try to convince people that they should believe that Christians are still under the Law or the Sinai covenant, unless they are deceived or brain washed.

Of course it is not difficult at all to discern that the teaching that the Christian will be lost if he/she do not observe the Sabbath, is a false teaching. It is false in that it simply isn't found in scriptures. I am inclined to conclude that those who believes this teaching that you say of Ms. Ellen White have such concern of the Sabbath keeping as essential to their being saved. This leads me to think that should they not observe it as they thought how it should be observed, they will lose their salvation. I wonder if they had the same concern with the rest of God's commandments.

And saying that their salvation will be lost by that, it is implied that they had at the start attained to salvation. And I'd guess that in the start, they attained salvation through the only way it could be attained, that is through faith, repenting unto God and towards faith in Jesus Christ. I'm thinking, if this were the case, how is it that they believe that they can lose it by not keeping or not observing the Sabbath? For if at all it is lost and is lost by that, how can they attain to it again? And if by not observing the Sabbath they lose salvation, that would mean that they will likewise lose it by not observing any other commandment of God. That's really a most sad and most miserable situation, no different from the Jews, who had fallen from grace, by choosing to be under the Law. Now, if they are like the Jews in that sense, and we read in scriptures that the Jews are called to repentance unto God and towards faith in Jesus Christ for salvation, should we not then tell them to repent unto God and towards faith Jesus Christ or remind them from whence they begun, that is, in the Spirit?

You do not properly divide the word of God. So are all who lived under the instructions of God mind you, during the old covenant lost unto eternal death according to that covenant? If it was purely a covenant of death appointed by God, then that should be the case, should it not. No, but those of the false gospel according to the twisted words of the apostle Paul simply ignore his own words and others which contradict said false gospel.

Her 4:1 Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it. 2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it. 3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world. 4 For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works. 5 And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest. 6 Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief: 7 Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts. 8 For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day. 9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God. 10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his. 11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief. 12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. 13 Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do.

The first covenant included more than just laws. It included a sanctuary and sacrifices which all pointed to the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. By which only the children of Israel were saved from their sins as all are to this very day. They had to look forward to such by faith, we look back upon such by faith. They awaited the promise, we believe n the fulfillment of the promise. You do not properly understand the law or the gospel, that both are crucial too and point out the way of salvation. You think God Himself established a faulty covenant that needed to be changed rather than a covenant that was meant to be fulfilled unto change. You think the fault with that covenant was with God rather than with Israel. You are wrong on both accounts.

Eze 18:20  The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him. 21 But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die. 22 All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live. 23 Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord GOD: and not that he should return from his ways, and live? 24 But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die. 25 Yet ye say, The way of the Lord is not equal. Hear now, O house of Israel; Is not my way equal? are not your ways unequal? 26 When a righteous man turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die. 27 Again, when the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive. 28 Because he considereth, and turneth away from all his transgressions that he hath committed, he shall surely live, he shall not die. 29 Yet saith the house of Israel, The way of the Lord is not equal. O house of Israel, are not my ways equal? are not your ways unequal? 30 Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, saith the Lord GOD. Repent, and turn yourselves from all your transgressions; so iniquity shall not be your ruin. 31 Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel? 32 For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye.

Are you not like unto the Israel of old declaring that the ways of the Lord are not equal? That He made a covenant of death upon some, and then later of life upon others? There is and only ever has been one gospel of God. Forgiveness of sins and salvation in Christ Jesus alone. This unto repentance and obedience, not unto indifference and lawlessness, or legalism and enforced man made tradition. This is what it seems you preach, correct me if I am wrong please.

[Amo]

Absolutely Jamie.  That is what I was taught and by the Grace of God after serving the SDA church faithfully for 37 years the cracks I had observed during those years began to open so that I could plainly see the discrepancies.  Careful study and the help of those who left the church before me have brought me into the light of the true Gospel of Jesus.   
We are to go tell it on the mountain and over the plains.  That is why I am here pounding the keys.

The Catholic Church isn't actually the beast. It is Babylon the Great, the woman who rides beasts. In believing this SDA's have simply continued Protestant thought as expressed by them in word and writing many many times over. You have not left these truths through careful study, you have simply abandon the testimony of Christians from the past who were literally cut off from society, persecuted, imprisoned, tortured, burned at the stake, and murdered enmass by Kings, Queens, and governments manipulated by Babylon the Great. So be it. Serve your masters well. Apostasy among professed Protestants had to come of course, before Babylon could rise to power again, with their aid and approval. You are simply part of said apostasy.

[Amo]

Wrong again  Amo.
Sunday is not the sabbath, ceremonial or otherwise. It was given the the Jews as part of the Mosaic Covenant as a sign of that Covenant.
Christians are in a different Covenant and the day to assemble and worship together is not prescribed. But the early Christians chose to assemble and worship together on Sunday as Cathlodox has amply demonstrated.

BALONEY! The Sabbath was established at creation 2000 years before there ever was a Jew. You simply choose to believe Christ spoke this sabbath into existence, or established it for no apparent reason at all. That is your choice, not scriptural testimony. Christ reminded the Jews of this day He established at creation when He formed them as a nation and lead them as His people. During the old covenant He had His prophets pronounce a blessing upon all including non Jews who would keep His sabbath. The same prophet even connected this blessing to his prophecies concerning the gentiles who would be brought into the fold during the new covenant within whom God the Father through His Son Jesus Christ, would write His law upon their hearts and in their minds. That law of course included the fourth commandment. This same prophet also observed that Jesus' sabbath would be kept in the new heaven and new earth. When Jesus came to earth He kept His sabbath, as Lord of it, and taught others its true meaning and proper observance. He also informed all that He did not come to change or destroy His law but fulfill it.  Saying also that it would not change until heaven and earth passed. You simply deny this because you don't like where it leads.

Cathlodox has not amply demonstrated anything but to those of his own extra biblical persuasion. The simple mention of the first day of the week in connection with certain activities does not support the abolishment of one of the commandments of God and or the institution of another worship day among early "Christians". If such is suggestive of establishing a particular day of worship, then the seventh day sabbath is without question the new covenant day of worship being mentioned in new testament scripture in connection to worship many multiple times more than the first day of the week.

Mat 12:1  At that time Jesus went on the sabbath day through the corn; and his disciples were an hungred, and began to pluck the ears of corn, and to eat.

Mat 12:2  But when the Pharisees saw it, they said unto him, Behold, thy disciples do that which is not lawful to do upon the sabbath day.

Mat 12:5  Or have ye not read in the law, how that on the sabbath days the priests in the temple profane the sabbath, and are blameless?

Mat 12:8  For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day.

Mat 12:10  And, behold, there was a man which had his hand withered. And they asked him, saying, Is it lawful to heal on the sabbath days? that they might accuse him.

Mat 12:11  And he said unto them, What man shall there be among you, that shall have one sheep, and if it fall into a pit on the sabbath day, will he not lay hold on it, and lift it out?

Mat 12:12  How much then is a man better than a sheep? Wherefore it is lawful to do well on the sabbath days.

Mat 24:20  But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

Mat 28:1  In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre.

Mar 1:21  And they went into Capernaum; and straightway on the sabbath day he entered into the synagogue, and taught.

Mar 2:23  And it came to pass, that he went through the corn fields on the sabbath day; and his disciples began, as they went, to pluck the ears of corn.

Mar 2:24  And the Pharisees said unto him, Behold, why do they on the sabbath day that which is not lawful?

Mar 2:27  And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath:

Mar 2:28  Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath.

Mar 3:2  And they watched him, whether he would heal him on the sabbath day; that they might accuse him.

Mar 3:4  And he saith unto them, Is it lawful to do good on the sabbath days, or to do evil? to save life, or to kill? But they held their peace.

Mar 6:2  And when the sabbath day was come, he began to teach in the synagogue: and many hearing him were astonished, saying, From whence hath this man these things? and what wisdom is this which is given unto him, that even such mighty works are wrought by his hands?

Mar 15:42  And now when the even was come, because it was the preparation, that is, the day before the sabbath,

Mar 16:1  And when the sabbath was past, Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James, and Salome, had bought sweet spices, that they might come and anoint him.

Luk 4:16  And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read.

Luk 4:31  And came down to Capernaum, a city of Galilee, and taught them on the sabbath days.

Luk 6:1  And it came to pass on the second sabbath after the first, that he went through the corn fields; and his disciples plucked the ears of corn, and did eat, rubbing them in their hands.

Luk 6:2  And certain of the Pharisees said unto them, Why do ye that which is not lawful to do on the sabbath days?

Luk 6:5  And he said unto them, That the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath.

Luk 6:6  And it came to pass also on another sabbath, that he entered into the synagogue and taught: and there was a man whose right hand was withered.

Luk 6:7  And the scribes and Pharisees watched him, whether he would heal on the sabbath day; that they might find an accusation against him.

Luk 6:9  Then said Jesus unto them, I will ask you one thing; Is it lawful on the sabbath days to do good, or to do evil? to save life, or to destroy it?

Luk 13:10  And he was teaching in one of the synagogues on the sabbath.

Luk 13:14  And the ruler of the synagogue answered with indignation, because that Jesus had healed on the sabbath day, and said unto the people, There are six days in which men ought to work: in them therefore come and be healed, and not on the sabbath day.

Luk 13:15  The Lord then answered him, and said, Thou hypocrite, doth not each one of you on the sabbath loose his ox or his ass from the stall, and lead him away to watering?

Luk 13:16  And ought not this woman, being a daughter of Abraham, whom Satan hath bound, lo, these eighteen years, be loosed from this bond on the sabbath day?

Luk 14:1  And it came to pass, as he went into the house of one of the chief Pharisees to eat bread on the sabbath day, that they watched him.

Luk 14:3  And Jesus answering spake unto the lawyers and Pharisees, saying, Is it lawful to heal on the sabbath day?

Luk 14:5  And answered them, saying, Which of you shall have an ass or an ox fallen into a pit, and will not straightway pull him out on the sabbath day?

Luk 23:54  And that day was the preparation, and the sabbath drew on.

Luk 23:56  And they returned, and prepared spices and ointments; and rested the sabbath day according to the commandment.

Joh 5:9  And immediately the man was made whole, and took up his bed, and walked: and on the same day was the sabbath.

Joh 5:10  The Jews therefore said unto him that was cured, It is the sabbath day: it is not lawful for thee to carry thy bed.

Joh 5:16  And therefore did the Jews persecute Jesus, and sought to slay him, because he had done these things on the sabbath day.

Joh 5:18  Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.

Joh 7:23  If a man on the sabbath day receive circumcision, that the law of Moses should not be broken; are ye angry at me, because I have made a man every whit whole on the sabbath day?

Joh 9:14  And it was the sabbath day when Jesus made the clay, and opened his eyes.

Joh 9:16  Therefore said some of the Pharisees, This man is not of God, because he keepeth not the sabbath day. Others said, How can a man that is a sinner do such miracles? And there was a division among them.

Joh 19:31  The Jews therefore, because it was the preparation, that the bodies should not remain upon the cross on the sabbath day, (for that sabbath day was an high day,) besought Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away.

Act 1:12  Then returned they unto Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet, which is from Jerusalem a sabbath day's journey.

Act 13:14  But when they departed from Perga, they came to Antioch in Pisidia, and went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and sat down.

Act 13:27  For they that dwell at Jerusalem, and their rulers, because they knew him not, nor yet the voices of the prophets which are read every sabbath day, they have fulfilled them in condemning him.

Act 13:42  And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath.

Act 13:44  And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God.

Act 15:21  For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.

Act 16:13  And on the sabbath we went out of the city by a river side, where prayer was wont to be made; and we sat down, and spake unto the women which resorted thither.

Act 17:2  And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures,

Act 18:4  And he reasoned in the synagogue every sabbath, and persuaded the Jews and the Greeks.

The sabbath and sabbath worship is addressed many more times in the new testament than Sunday or the first day of the week. Many of the verse are in direct relation to proper sabbath observance, and none of the are ever about changing the sabbath day or getting rid of it altogether. The breaking of bread you refer to as a sign that Sunday was a new day of worship is irrelevant since the scriptures clearly state that they broke bread daily from house to house.

Act 2:42 And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers. 43 And fear came upon every soul: and many wonders and signs were done by the apostles. 44 And all that believed were together, and had all things common; 45 And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need. 46 And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart,

You know this, you just choose to ignore it because you want things to be different than they were to support your argument. Some one has already pointed out the fault of your conclusions based upon individuals setting aside money themselves on the first day of the week. They did not gather to take up collection as you suggest. Nevertheless you ignore this because it isn't the way you want it to be. So be it. Let us all give our testimonies and serve our chosen masters well. God will separate us as He sees fit and proper when He returns to set all records straight. I call upon you to submit to God's law and keep His commandments by faith in His word regarding them. Also to join me in combatting those who would force their day of worship upon me and all others through civil legislation as they have already, and continue to do. Let all observe their faith by faith, and not by the force of human legislation regarding the tradition of those simply most numerous. Such has nothing to do at all with the gospel of Jesus Christ.




 

[winsome]

Many of us do not worship or believe according to The Council of Trent. The commandments including the fourth did not come to us through Moses but rather through the voice and hand of God Himself. God never did away with any of His commandments according to scripture. If He had, who are you or anyone else to say which ones He did and which ones He did not without a scripture to support such?Not only have Sunday keepers done this in taking it upon themselves to tell others what God has changed and what He has not according to their own understanding, but they have presumed to force such upon all through civil legislation. Insisting that God not only changed the day of observance, but apparently appointed them to force compliance to their self proclaimed change upon all. Go figure.

The Ten Commandments were Covenant Law for the Old (Siniai) Covenant. They were given to the Jews at Siniai and were not given to them before or to Gentiles ever.

The old Siniai Covenant  ended, along with the Law that was a part of it.

Scripture says they were given to the Jews through Moses. It was Moses that went up the mountain to receive them. It was Moses that relayed them to the rest of the Jews. It was only  the Jews that accepted them and promised to obey them.

[winsome]

BALONEY! The Sabbath was established at creation 2000 years before there ever was a Jew. You simply choose to believe Christ spoke this sabbath into existence, or established it for no apparent reason at all. That is your choice, not scriptural testimony. Christ reminded the Jews of this day He established at creation when He formed them as a nation and lead them as His people. During the old covenant He had His prophets pronounce a blessing upon all including non Jews who would keep His sabbath. The same prophet even connected this blessing to his prophecies concerning the gentiles who would be brought into the fold during the new covenant within whom God the Father through His Son Jesus Christ, would write His law upon their hearts and in their minds. That law of course included the fourth commandment. This same prophet also observed that Jesus' sabbath would be kept in the new heaven and new earth. When Jesus came to earth He kept His sabbath, as Lord of it, and taught others its true meaning and proper observance. He also informed all that He did not come to change or destroy His law but fulfill it.  Saying also that it would not change until heaven and earth passed. You simply deny this because you don't like where it leads.

Cathlodox has not amply demonstrated anything but to those of his own extra biblical persuasion. The simple mention of the first day of the week in connection with certain activities does not support the abolishment of one of the commandments of God and or the institution of another worship day among early "Christians". If such is suggestive of establishing a particular day of worship, then the seventh day sabbath is without question the new covenant day of worship being mentioned in new testament scripture in connection to worship many multiple times more than the first day of the week.

Mat 12:1  At that time Jesus went on the sabbath day through the corn; and his disciples were an hungred, and began to pluck the ears of corn, and to eat.

Mat 12:2  But when the Pharisees saw it, they said unto him, Behold, thy disciples do that which is not lawful to do upon the sabbath day.

Mat 12:5  Or have ye not read in the law, how that on the sabbath days the priests in the temple profane the sabbath, and are blameless?

Mat 12:8  For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day.

Mat 12:10  And, behold, there was a man which had his hand withered. And they asked him, saying, Is it lawful to heal on the sabbath days? that they might accuse him.

Mat 12:11  And he said unto them, What man shall there be among you, that shall have one sheep, and if it fall into a pit on the sabbath day, will he not lay hold on it, and lift it out?

Mat 12:12  How much then is a man better than a sheep? Wherefore it is lawful to do well on the sabbath days.

Mat 24:20  But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

Mat 28:1  In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre.

Mar 1:21  And they went into Capernaum; and straightway on the sabbath day he entered into the synagogue, and taught.

Mar 2:23  And it came to pass, that he went through the corn fields on the sabbath day; and his disciples began, as they went, to pluck the ears of corn.

Mar 2:24  And the Pharisees said unto him, Behold, why do they on the sabbath day that which is not lawful?

Mar 2:27  And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath:

Mar 2:28  Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath.

Mar 3:2  And they watched him, whether he would heal him on the sabbath day; that they might accuse him.

Mar 3:4  And he saith unto them, Is it lawful to do good on the sabbath days, or to do evil? to save life, or to kill? But they held their peace.

Mar 6:2  And when the sabbath day was come, he began to teach in the synagogue: and many hearing him were astonished, saying, From whence hath this man these things? and what wisdom is this which is given unto him, that even such mighty works are wrought by his hands?

Mar 15:42  And now when the even was come, because it was the preparation, that is, the day before the sabbath,

Mar 16:1  And when the sabbath was past, Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James, and Salome, had bought sweet spices, that they might come and anoint him.

Luk 4:16  And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read.

Luk 4:31  And came down to Capernaum, a city of Galilee, and taught them on the sabbath days.

Luk 6:1  And it came to pass on the second sabbath after the first, that he went through the corn fields; and his disciples plucked the ears of corn, and did eat, rubbing them in their hands.

Luk 6:2  And certain of the Pharisees said unto them, Why do ye that which is not lawful to do on the sabbath days?

Luk 6:5  And he said unto them, That the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath.

Luk 6:6  And it came to pass also on another sabbath, that he entered into the synagogue and taught: and there was a man whose right hand was withered.

Luk 6:7  And the scribes and Pharisees watched him, whether he would heal on the sabbath day; that they might find an accusation against him.

Luk 6:9  Then said Jesus unto them, I will ask you one thing; Is it lawful on the sabbath days to do good, or to do evil? to save life, or to destroy it?

Luk 13:10  And he was teaching in one of the synagogues on the sabbath.

Luk 13:14  And the ruler of the synagogue answered with indignation, because that Jesus had healed on the sabbath day, and said unto the people, There are six days in which men ought to work: in them therefore come and be healed, and not on the sabbath day.

Luk 13:15  The Lord then answered him, and said, Thou hypocrite, doth not each one of you on the sabbath loose his ox or his ass from the stall, and lead him away to watering?

Luk 13:16  And ought not this woman, being a daughter of Abraham, whom Satan hath bound, lo, these eighteen years, be loosed from this bond on the sabbath day?

Luk 14:1  And it came to pass, as he went into the house of one of the chief Pharisees to eat bread on the sabbath day, that they watched him.

Luk 14:3  And Jesus answering spake unto the lawyers and Pharisees, saying, Is it lawful to heal on the sabbath day?

Luk 14:5  And answered them, saying, Which of you shall have an ass or an ox fallen into a pit, and will not straightway pull him out on the sabbath day?

Luk 23:54  And that day was the preparation, and the sabbath drew on.

Luk 23:56  And they returned, and prepared spices and ointments; and rested the sabbath day according to the commandment.

Joh 5:9  And immediately the man was made whole, and took up his bed, and walked: and on the same day was the sabbath.

Joh 5:10  The Jews therefore said unto him that was cured, It is the sabbath day: it is not lawful for thee to carry thy bed.

Joh 5:16  And therefore did the Jews persecute Jesus, and sought to slay him, because he had done these things on the sabbath day.

Joh 5:18  Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.

Joh 7:23  If a man on the sabbath day receive circumcision, that the law of Moses should not be broken; are ye angry at me, because I have made a man every whit whole on the sabbath day?

Joh 9:14  And it was the sabbath day when Jesus made the clay, and opened his eyes.

Joh 9:16  Therefore said some of the Pharisees, This man is not of God, because he keepeth not the sabbath day. Others said, How can a man that is a sinner do such miracles? And there was a division among them.

Joh 19:31  The Jews therefore, because it was the preparation, that the bodies should not remain upon the cross on the sabbath day, (for that sabbath day was an high day,) besought Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away.

Act 1:12  Then returned they unto Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet, which is from Jerusalem a sabbath day's journey.

Act 13:14  But when they departed from Perga, they came to Antioch in Pisidia, and went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and sat down.

Act 13:27  For they that dwell at Jerusalem, and their rulers, because they knew him not, nor yet the voices of the prophets which are read every sabbath day, they have fulfilled them in condemning him.

Act 13:42  And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath.

Act 13:44  And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God.

Act 15:21  For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.

Act 16:13  And on the sabbath we went out of the city by a river side, where prayer was wont to be made; and we sat down, and spake unto the women which resorted thither.

Act 17:2  And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures,

Act 18:4  And he reasoned in the synagogue every sabbath, and persuaded the Jews and the Greeks.

The sabbath and sabbath worship is addressed many more times in the new testament than Sunday or the first day of the week. Many of the verse are in direct relation to proper sabbath observance, and none of the are ever about changing the sabbath day or getting rid of it altogether. The breaking of bread you refer to as a sign that Sunday was a new day of worship is irrelevant since the scriptures clearly state that they broke bread daily from house to house.

Act 2:42 And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers. 43 And fear came upon every soul: and many wonders and signs were done by the apostles. 44 And all that believed were together, and had all things common; 45 And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need. 46 And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart,

You know this, you just choose to ignore it because you want things to be different than they were to support your argument. Some one has already pointed out the fault of your conclusions based upon individuals setting aside money themselves on the first day of the week. They did not gather to take up collection as you suggest. Nevertheless you ignore this because it isn't the way you want it to be. So be it. Let us all give our testimonies and serve our chosen masters well. God will separate us as He sees fit and proper when He returns to set all records straight. I call upon you to submit to God's law and keep His commandments by faith in His word regarding them. Also to join me in combatting those who would force their day of worship upon me and all others through civil legislation as they have already, and continue to do. Let all observe their faith by faith, and not by the force of human legislation regarding the tradition of those simply most numerous. Such has nothing to do at all with the gospel of Jesus Christ.

BALONEY!"
The sabbath was never mentioned in the Bible until Exodus  16:23

If you read Ex 16:22-30 you will see that the Jews weren't keeping a sabbath. They didn't understand it.

Also in Dt 5:3 when reminding them of the giving of the Ten Commandments, Moses said "Not with our ancestors did the LORD make this covenant"

[beam]

The Catholic Church isn't actually the beast. It is Babylon the Great, the woman who rides beasts. In believing this SDA's have simply continued Protestant thought as expressed by them in word and writing many many times over.

Yes, SDAs take the word of the apostate Protestant church.  Remarkable, out of one side SDAs say how terrible protestants are and out of the other they use what they believe who is what.   

You have not left these truths through careful study, you have simply abandon the testimony of Christians from the past

Are you now claiming to be some sort of mind reader or pseudo prophet.  What I did was to leave all the untruths and am walking in the light of Jesus not in the "lesser" light of E. G. White.  Why is it, Amo,3-123 that you never step up to the plate and answer any of the questions we ask?  Why do you ignore most of our posts.  I have a good thought, you can't come up with anything from scripture to counter what we write.

So be it. Serve your masters well.

Thank you and thank you Jesus for being my Master and only Master.

apostasy among professed Protestants had to come of course,

You mean like Ellen White and her flock?

before Babylon could rise to power again, with their aid and approval. You are simply part of said apostasy.

The only apostasy I am proudly guilty of is leaving the false SDA church.

[winsome]

Humanity cannot sanctify anything in and of themselves.

God alone can sanctify anything.
 

the Lord added, “Go to the people and have them sanctify themselves today and tomorrow (Ex 19;10)

Then Moses came down from the mountain to the people and had them sanctify themselves (Ex 19:14)

The priests, too, who approach the Lord must sanctify themselves (Ex19:22)

Sanctify yourselves, then, and be holy (Lev 20:7)

To the people, however, you shall say: Sanctify yourselves for tomorrow, when you shall have meat to eat (Num 11:18)

Joshua also said to the people, “Sanctify yourselves, for tomorrow the Lord will perform wonders among you." (Jos 3:5)
See also Jos 7:13, 1Chron 15:12, 2Chron 29:5, 29:34, 31:18, 31:18, 36:6, Job 1:5, Is 66:17

[Amo]

Hi Jamie, Jesus didn't live under the new covenant of Grace, He lived under the laws of the Sinai covenant as did all the Jews He came to teach and save.  His words to them had to be in sink with the laws they lived under.  When we understand that we then can understand what happened after Calvary.  Jesus, at His death, fulfilled the new covenant prophecy of Jeremiah 31.  He ratified the new covenant with His own blood.  He appointed Paul to be His ambassador to explain the new way of life and and eternal life.  Paul preached that the works of the Law could not save one soul and that Christians are not under the laws of the Sinai covenant.  Gal 3 is one of the best chapters to learn this fact.

Perfect example of the gospel according to those who twist the words of Paul and follow those twisted words over and above the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Luk 2:39 And when they had performed all things according to the law of the Lord, they returned into Galilee, to their own city Nazareth. 40 And the child grew, and waxed strong in spirit, filled with wisdom: and the grace of God was upon him.

So the grace of God was upon Him, yet our Lord and Savior was didn't live under grace but under the law according to the false gospel of these followers of Paul. That is just what Luke said, you know, who is luke compared to Paul, right.

Joh 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. 15 John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me. 16 And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace. 17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ. 18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

Listen to how silly John is being now, saying Jesus Christ was full of grace and truth, that grace and truth came by Him and even that we received grace for grace from Him. John had apparently not read Paul's writings yet when he said such silly things, or else he would not have said them of course. According to the fake gospel of Paul promoted by some on these boards in any case.

Jesus Christ always has been, is, and always will be the grace of God. He was born under the law to deliver those who were under the law by the grace which He offers and personified while here on earth as one of us. To say that He was not under grace is only correct in that grace cannot be under grace, which very thing Jesus Christ was, is, and will ever be. He is not under grace He is over grace and grace proceeds forth from Him. Just as it proceeded forth from Him when here as one of us.

Mar 1:14 Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God, 15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

Jesus did not come to live under the law, and pass the giving of the gospel onto others called apostles. He came to bring the kingdom of grace and God to earth and establish the same through Himself. He always has been, is, and always will be the gospel of the grace of God. It is a lie from hell to suggest otherwise. He who is grace and truth brought both into this world and commissioned His own to preach these truths unto the world. He did not leave this work to Paul or any other single person, but rather to His body, whom all believers are. Who are themselves empowered with grace and truth from Him who is, always has been, and always will be grace and truth. Mercy be to any who preach a false gospel declaring otherwise. They will need it when they stand before God and answer for declaring such.

Mat 11:2  Now when John had heard in the prison the works of Christ, he sent two of his disciples, 3 And said unto him, Art thou he that should come, or do we look for another? 4 Jesus answered and said unto them, Go and shew John again those things which ye do hear and see: 5 The blind receive their sight, and the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, and the deaf hear, the dead are raised up, and the poor have the gospel preached to them. 6 And blessed is he, whosoever shall not be offended in me.

Do you not understand the grace of God shed abroad by our Lord and savior Jesus Christ, who came to establish the grace of God here Himself? From whom do you think the apostles and your savior Paul received their gospel and grace? When do you suppose this was established and by whom? Them? No, but Jesus Christ established the same and commissioned them to it even while here among us. Which they continued after He ascended back to the Father that He might impart the spirit of God unto the same among His followers forever.

Mat 10:5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not: 6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. 7 And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand. 8 Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give. 9 Provide neither gold, nor silver, nor brass in your purses, 10 Nor scrip for your journey, neither two coats, neither shoes, nor yet staves: for the workman is worthy of his meat. 11 And into whatsoever city or town ye shall enter, enquire who in it is worthy; and there abide till ye go thence. 12 And when ye come into an house, salute it. 13 And if the house be worthy, let your peace come upon it: but if it be not worthy, let your peace return to you. 14 And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet. 15 Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city.

This grace of God Christ brought to the lost of Israel first, but not exclusively, who were themselves to bring it the Gentiles later according to his plan. Of whom Paul, your chosen savior who you claim brought grace to the world, a Hebrew was one specifically chosen to bring the grace of Christ to the Gentiles. Not his own according to his own gospel as you may suggest.

Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: 13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come. 15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many. 16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification. 17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.) 18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. 19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous. 20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound: 21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

Make no mistake about it. Grace and truth came to us through Jesus Christ our Lord. He did not come here to live under the law as a a false gospel suggests. He was born under the law, to bring the grace of God upon those under the condemnation of the law through Himself as He is the source of all grace. He lived and conquered by grace, not as one under the law, for the law had no power over Him, because He never sinned. By this grace are we saved. Any other gospel is a false gospel.

[Michael2012]

Would the directive be from God to a people incapable of compliance? Apparently so. Odd wouldn’t you say! I say God would know their hearts as he does today. Wouldn’t have to be absolute perfect obedience. Why would he require perfect obedience from beings incapable of perfect obedience? God’s graciousness was present in the OT as well. God is unchanging.

Are you arguing with the scriptures on this Jaime? I hope not. I have shown you what scriptures says in Deut. 11:8 which explicitly and unequivocally tells us that God required for them to keep all the commandments, not one missed out. If you can't believe said scriptures, you are free to do so. But it is another to say that you don't believe it because you think it is not the truth, and instead believing that what you think is what is the truth about God.

You asked "Why would he require perfect obedience from beings incapable of perfect obedience?" In my reading of scriptures, it is because God is perfectly holy. I see God as one whose displeasure and hate of sin is as great as His love for righteousness. And there is nothing odd about Him wanting for man to keep all of His commandments to them, even while He knows that man is incapable of perfect obedience. What would be odd is wanting anything less than perfect obedience, for that goes against His perfect holy divine nature. Even so, while man is not capable of perfect obedience, if this incapable man would just have full faith in God and surrender His will to God, would there be a commandment he can't obey? And should he finds it too difficult to obeying it, will not God give him the strength to carry it out? I see this as the very reason why the Father, even the Son, sent the Holy Spirit and dwell in the Christians ~ to be their helper.

[Amo]

Why is google allowed to put adds right in the middle of our posts? This started for me when I posted while staying at a hotel using their service. I see it happening to others as well. Is there any way to stop this annoyance?

[Jaime]

Michael, I am not arguing with scripture, just employing other scripture in seeing God did not ask them to do something they couldn’t do. Are YOU arguing that they COULD obey perfectly?

[Amo]

The Ten Commandments were Covenant Law for the Old (Siniai) Covenant. They were given to the Jews at Siniai and were not given to them before or to Gentiles ever.

The old Siniai Covenant  ended, along with the Law that was a part of it.

Scripture says they were given to the Jews through Moses. It was Moses that went up the mountain to receive them. It was Moses that relayed them to the rest of the Jews. It was only  the Jews that accepted them and promised to obey them.

Sorry dude. We all have the scriptures and can read them for ourselves. They say God spoke the ten commandments with His own mouth, and wrote them with His own finger twice. I understand you need to ignore or reject these scriptures, nevertheless they are still with us. Ignoring scripture is not very healthy, though the habit is presently very prevalent. Kind of silly simply referring to scriptures concerning Moses going up the mountain, which if quoted would conclusively point out that God Himself  wrote them for Moses twice. I would quote them for you and others proving the point, but I suppose you would just ignore them as well. So be it.

[Amo]

BALONEY!"
The sabbath was never mentioned in the Bible until Exodus  16:23

If you read Ex 16:22-30 you will see that the Jews weren't keeping a sabbath. They didn't understand it.

Also in Dt 5:3 when reminding them of the giving of the Ten Commandments, Moses said "Not with our ancestors did the LORD make this covenant"

Why act like no one has a bible to refute your false claims? The sabbath commandment itself is a direct reference to the creation account and God blessing and sanctifying the seventh day at the end of the same. You now the six days of creation referred to in the sabbath commandment, and the fact that God blessed it at that time. There seems to be an epidemic of people just simply ignoring scripture that doesn't fit their teachings.

No, the Jews weren't keeping God's sabbath after becoming slaves to the Egyptians, thus the Lord said "remember" His sabbath. You can't remember something that has never been before. Yes, the covenant with Israel was different than the covenants previous to it. Much more detailed for one thing. Is there some kind of point to this fact? 

[Michael2012]

So, are you saying there was an angel and the Lord in the midst of the bush? The scripture does not say that either. Perhaps the purpose of the scripture was to point out that the angel of the Lord is the Lord, which seems to be suggested in other scriptures as well.

What I am saying is that the angel of the Lord is not the Lord per se. For if that were the case, then scriptures would had it simply stated "the Lord" and not "the angel of the Lord".

Now concerning your comments regarding Colossians, are you suggesting that one of the ten commandments spoken by the mouth of God and written with His own finger are in the category of philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world?

The ten commandments are not addressed at all in Colossians 2. Colossians 2 is addressing philosophy, vain deceit, traditions, and the rudiments of this world. God's sabbath is none of those things. Nor is it any of the things pointed out which I highlighted in the following verses of Colossians 2.

Col 2:16  Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: 17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ. 18 Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind, 19 And not holding the Head, from which all the body by joints and bands having nourishment ministered, and knit together, increaseth with the increase of God. 20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances, 21 (Touch not; taste not; handle not; 22 Which all are to perish with the using;) after the commandments and doctrines of men? 23 Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body; not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh.

God's sabbath has nothing to do with the commandments of men. It is no surprise that those who reject the authority of God's sabbath, twist a scripture definitely referring to ceremonial sabbaths into one referring to God's sabbath, while they twist other scriptures referring to God's sabbath into ones referring to ceremony alone.

This is what I said "Now concerning the Sabbath day worship issue, I'd like you to consider what the scriptures tells us in Colossians 2 about Christians:" So, in citing and quoting Colossians 2, I was making reference to point out what it says about Christians and not about something else.

Now with regards the sabbath, as mentioned in verse 16, you seem to teach that Paul there is referring to ceremony alone or ceremonial sabbaths. Please tell us what exactly are you meaning to say and refer to by that?

Also, can you tell us what verse 17 says to you?

You should heed the words of the first angel given in Revelation 14 -

Rev 14:6  And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people, 7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.

God gave us His Sabbath to do this very thing.

Exo 20:8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: 10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: 11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

May I ask, are you a descendant of Jacob, an Israelite? Are you saying that God had made a covenant whose mediator was Moses, with all men, and not with Israel in particular? If you do, then that would mean that you don't believe what scriptures is saying regarding this covenant.

[Amo]

the Lord added, “Go to the people and have them sanctify themselves today and tomorrow (Ex 19;10)

Then Moses came down from the mountain to the people and had them sanctify themselves (Ex 19:14)

The priests, too, who approach the Lord must sanctify themselves (Ex19:22)

Sanctify yourselves, then, and be holy (Lev 20:7)

To the people, however, you shall say: Sanctify yourselves for tomorrow, when you shall have meat to eat (Num 11:18)

Joshua also said to the people, “Sanctify yourselves, for tomorrow the Lord will perform wonders among you." (Jos 3:5)
See also Jos 7:13, 1Chron 15:12, 2Chron 29:5, 29:34, 31:18, 31:18, 36:6, Job 1:5, Is 66:17

So, can I take it form the above, that you believe humanity can sanctify themselves as in make themselves holy, or something else holy by proclamation or observance? Is this truth according to your gospel?

Joh 17:17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth. 18 As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world. 19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.

We are sanctified through the truth. God's word is truth. If God says to sanctify ourselves, and we obey according to His word, then we will be sanctified. Not because we are able to do so of ourselves, but because we have obeyed His word and command, which is truth. All who obey the truth by faith in God's word which is truth, are sanctified in and by that truth. This is God's doing, not ours. This is of course when the word is used to mean make yourself holy, which we are not capable of. If we were, we would not need salvation.

Rom 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin. 15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I. 16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good. 17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. 18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

This is our description. There is no good or holy thing in or about us apart from God. God alone can sanctify us. None are or can be sanctified in sin, but all are only sanctified in Christ by the obedience of faith. Faith in God's word. Please do show us where God's word has declared that Christians should sanctify themselves and the Sunday by keeping it holy. If you can do this, then sanctification concerning the same is possible. If not, you cannot sanctify the day or yourself by observing ti or anything else the Lord has not commanded. This is according to scripture of course, not your gospel if indeed, you believe humanity can sanctify itself in any other manner than through obedience to God's word by faith in the same.

[Amo]

Yes, SDAs take the word of the apostate Protestant church.  Remarkable, out of one side SDAs say how terrible protestants are and out of the other they use what they believe who is what.

Non stop twisted drivel by one who claims to have once been an SDA, but reveals such abject ignorance concerning them. SDA's have historically held up the Reformers as those who began the exit from Babylon to embrace biblical truth. They have accepted many correct biblical doctrines from the Reformers and many still maintain them to this day. They most certainly do accept the testimony of those who were literally cut off from society, imprisoned, tortured, burned at the stake, and murdered enmass by Roman Catholic church members who identified her as Babylon the Great for doing so. They were and are correct. They have historically though, rejected later Protestant tendencies to reject further biblical light, abandon correct doctrines and prophetic interpretations, and increasingly grow friendly with Babylon the Great. I say historically because SDA's themselves are now also doing all of the above. So be it. 

[Michael2012]

You do not properly divide the word of God. So are all who lived under the instructions of God mind you, during the old covenant lost unto eternal death according to that covenant? If it was purely a covenant of death appointed by God, then that should be the case, should it not. No, but those of the false gospel according to the twisted words of the apostle Paul simply ignore his own words and others which contradict said false gospel.

You aren't my judge as to whether I properly divide the word of God or not, unless you claim to have authority and claim to have perfect knowledge of scriptures, as the chosen apostles have. So that comment of yours is nothing but what comes from your pride and not from God nor from scriptures.

You asked "So are all who lived under the instructions of God mind you, during the old covenant lost unto eternal death according to that covenant?" God made a covenant with Israel at the time of Moses in the day when God took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt.

Regarding your question, consider what scriptures says:

2 Cor.3 :6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:

8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?

9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.

10 For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth.

In the above quoted passage, one could see two ministration spoken of. In verse 6, we can identify them as one of the letter and the other of the spirit. If you'll accept, Paul takes reference to the ministry of the Law (Law of Moses, of the letter), and to the ministry of the Spirit (of the spirit).

Now, the ten commandments are included and embodied in the Law of Moses. As such they are of the ministry of the Law. Paul speaks of this ministry of the Law as being of the letter and that which killeth (v.6). So that in verse 7, Paul calls it the ministration of death. He also calls it the ministration of condemnation. Now, don't you see it and agree then that the Law given to Israel through Moses, which were written and engraven in stones, is AGAINST them (Israel), which brought them condemnation and death? As Paul explicitly declared concerning the ministry of the Law, that is, "the letter killeth".

What is the purpose of the Law (which includes the ten commandments)? Paul gives us the answer in Gal. 3:19, that it was added because of transgressions. The implication is that, if not of transgressions, the Law would not had been given. For Paul, in his first letter to Timothy, said this about the Law:

9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,

10 For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;

This tells us, as scriptures do testify, that the Israelites, as a whole, at the time of Moses when they were in the wilderness, became lawless and disobedient, ungodly, sinners, unholy, idolaters, etc. so that God gave them commandments, statutes, ordinances, regulations, judgements ~ the Law. 

Be that as it is, the law which brought them condemnation and death, serveth also to be their schoolmaster to bring them unto Christ, that they might be justified by faith.

Her 4:1 Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it. 2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it. 3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world. 4 For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works. 5 And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest. 6 Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief: 7 Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts. 8 For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day. 9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God. 10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his. 11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief. 12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. 13 Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do.

The first covenant included more than just laws. It included a sanctuary and sacrifices which all pointed to the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. By which only the children of Israel were saved from their sins as all are to this very day. They had to look forward to such by faith, we look back upon such by faith. They awaited the promise, we believe n the fulfillment of the promise. You do not properly understand the law or the gospel, that both are crucial too and point out the way of salvation. You think God Himself established a faulty covenant that needed to be changed rather than a covenant that was meant to be fulfilled unto change. You think the fault with that covenant was with God rather than with Israel. You are wrong on both accounts.

No Amo. I don't think that God established a faulty covenant that needed to be changed. And I don't think the fault with that covenant was with God. Those are false accusations, if not, a straw man you made up.

Are you not like unto the Israel of old declaring that the ways of the Lord are not equal? That He made a covenant of death upon some, and then later of life upon others? There is and only ever has been one gospel of God. Forgiveness of sins and salvation in Christ Jesus alone. This unto repentance and obedience, not unto indifference and lawlessness, or legalism and enforced man made tradition. This is what it seems you preach, correct me if I am wrong please.

No I am not. And yes you are wrong.

[Amo]

Are you now claiming to be some sort of mind reader or pseudo prophet.  What I did was to leave all the untruths and am walking in the light of Jesus not in the "lesser" light of E. G. White.  Why is it, Amo,3-123 that you never step up to the plate and answer any of the questions we ask?  Why do you ignore most of our posts.  I have a good thought, you can't come up with anything from scripture to counter what we write.

More abject ignorance. I have spent this entire day trying to address all the questions and lies written on these boards. I have spent countless hours in the past doing the same for many years and decades now on these boards and others. Should we actually go back and examine how many questions I have answered and addressed just on these boards alone over the years and compare them to your own, your own deficiencies concerning the same would no doubt become apparent. I am not in any kind of contest though concerning the same. I do however contest the ignorance of your statement claiming I do not take time to address questions. If you have not noticed I have many thousands of post more than you do, which count I believe was begun when I returned to these boards after being gone for some years after already posting here for years before that.

Nevertheless, please do provide a link to some of the questions you claim I have not answered and I will address them when time allows, if I find I have not already done so many times over.

You have not shown here any untruths which you have abandoned. You have expressed your opinions concerning that which you have decided to be untrue, I have found no truth in your claims however. Much of what you claim to be truth I find to be false altogether. So be it.

[Michael2012]

Michael, I am not arguing with scripture, just employing other scripture in seeing God did not ask them to do something they couldn’t do. Are YOU arguing that they COULD obey perfectly?

I am arguing, as I have in my last paragraph in Reply #123, that they could, though not on their own, but with the help of God.

[Amo]

What I am saying is that the angel of the Lord is not the Lord per se. For if that were the case, then scriptures would had it simply stated "the Lord" and not "the angel of the Lord".

Unless of course the scriptures would have us understand, that a certain angel of the Lord as he appeared to those of the old covenant was actually God. Several other scriptures apart from that which we are presently referring to seem to suggest this very thing as well. Some of these angels committed blaspheme by their words or actions if they were not in fact God. So be it, according to your understanding.

[Jaime]

Michael, I am saying they couldn’t obey perfectly but that God would show grace if their heart was right, much as he does today. Obedience with a bad beart is of no avail. Sometimes the Israelites had neither.

Michael, it doesn’t bother me that we can’t communicate, we never have to my knowledge.

[Amo]

This is what I said "Now concerning the Sabbath day worship issue, I'd like you to consider what the scriptures tells us in Colossians 2 about Christians:" So, in citing and quoting Colossians 2, I was making reference to point out what it says about Christians and not about something else.

Now with regards the sabbath, as mentioned in verse 16, you seem to teach that Paul there is referring to ceremony alone or ceremonial sabbaths. Please tell us what exactly are you meaning to say and refer to by that?

Also, can you tell us what verse 17 says to you?

The commandments of God are not addressed or mentioned in Colossians 2 at all. The only commandments mentioned are the commandments of men. The ten commandments are the commandments of God as scripture calls them over and over again. The seventh day Sabbath is God's sabbath as scripture calls it over and over again. The sabbath Paul is referring to can not be the fourth commandment for both of these reasons. That which God allowed Moses, a man to write, may be referred to as the commandments of men. The sabbath being addressed therefore would have to be from among those writings and not the commandments of God spoken by His own mouth, written by His own hand twice, and called His many times over in scripture. They are sabbaths related to the ceremonial, civil, or agricultural laws of Israel. Not the sabbath established by our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ at creation which He commanded Israel to remember and keep with His own mouth, and wrote for them with His own finger. This same sabbath which he taught the proper observance of when here as one of us. This is my point. The context of Colossians 2 does not allow for it to be God's sabbath or command that is being addressed.

[Amo]

May I ask, are you a descendant of Jacob, an Israelite? Are you saying that God had made a covenant whose mediator was Moses, with all men, and not with Israel in particular? If you do, then that would mean that you don't believe what scriptures is saying regarding this covenant.

No I was not saying that I am a descendant of Jacob, though I do have Jewish lineage in the family history, and do consider myself a spiritual descendant Jacob by faith. God's covenant with Israel, was His covenant with those who would be His people during that era before the coming of Jesus Christ. Those who would be of Christ during this new covenant age are graft into the vine, not saved separate from it.

[Amo]

You aren't my judge as to whether I properly divide the word of God or not, unless you claim to have authority and claim to have perfect knowledge of scriptures, as the chosen apostles have. So that comment of yours is nothing but what comes from your pride and not from God nor from scriptures.

That is of course my take on your position, just as you no doubt think the same of mine. God will address and straighten this issue out when Jesus returns along with all others.

[Amo]

You asked "So are all who lived under the instructions of God mind you, during the old covenant lost unto eternal death according to that covenant?" God made a covenant with Israel at the time of Moses in the day when God took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt.

Regarding your question, consider what scriptures says:

2 Cor.3 :6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:

8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?

9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.

10 For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth.

In the above quoted passage, one could see two ministration spoken of. In verse 6, we can identify them as one of the letter and the other of the spirit. If you'll accept, Paul takes reference to the ministry of the Law (Law of Moses, of the letter), and to the ministry of the Spirit (of the spirit).

Now, the ten commandments are included and embodied in the Law of Moses. As such they are of the ministry of the Law. Paul speaks of this ministry of the Law as being of the letter and that which killeth (v.6). So that in verse 7, Paul calls it the ministration of death. He also calls it the ministration of condemnation. Now, don't you see it and agree then that the Law given to Israel through Moses, which were written and engraven in stones, is AGAINST them (Israel), which brought them condemnation and death? As Paul explicitly declared concerning the ministry of the Law, that is, "the letter killeth".

I say you are wrongly dividing the word of God again. God who is spirit, spoke the ten commandments with His own mouth, and wrote them with His own hand twice. Are you suggesting that God's law is not of the spirit but only of the letter? I say this is because you wrongly divide the scriptures and the writings of Paul as well, and then apply a meaning to said scriptures that make the word of God and even Paul contradict itself. This is why I believe you wrongly divide the word of God. Your application causes to many contradictions in the word of God itself. God is spirit, nothing proceeding from Him or His mouth is simply by the letter or carnal in any way shape or form. His law does condemn to death as it is meant to do, to convict the heart and drive the sinner to the foot of the cross for forgiveness and salvation. It is also the standard of righteousness which our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ lived out in our flesh. Which He stated that He did not come to change but fulfill, that such might be fulfilled within our lives as well. All of this is scriptural and without contradiction.

Proclaiming that the law is abolished because it is not of the spirit or carnal, is not scriptural, but contradicts scripture. This is why I reject your gospel as false, and an example of wrongly dividing the word of God.

Psa 19:7 The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple. 8 The statutes of the LORD are right, rejoicing the heart: the commandment of the LORD is pure, enlightening the eyes.

Rom 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet. 8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead. 9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. 10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death. 11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me. 12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good. 13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful. 14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: 4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. 8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

The law is perfect, good, holy and spiritual. It helps convert the soul. This is the testimony of the scriptures and Paul. It is the carnal mind that is not subject to the law, not the spiritual mind. The law which proceeded out of the mouth of God who is spirit, has never needed to change and will not change. The sinner who is carnal has always needed to change and must change. This is the testimony of scripture. Gospels which contradict this testimony calling the law non spiritual or simply of the letter and needing to be changed, are false gospels which do not rightly divide the word of God but rather make it contradict itself.