Author Topic: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.  (Read 7397 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Amo

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5246
  • Manna: 49
  • (T)ogether (E)veryone (A)chieves (M)ore
Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
« Reply #140 on: Sat Jan 04, 2020 - 18:52:33 »
Quote
What is the purpose of the Law (which includes the ten commandments)? Paul gives us the answer in Gal. 3:19, that it was added because of transgressions. The implication is that, if not of transgressions, the Law would not had been given. For Paul, in his first letter to Timothy, said this about the Law:

9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,

10 For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;

This tells us, as scriptures do testify, that the Israelites, as a whole, at the time of Moses when they were in the wilderness, became lawless and disobedient, ungodly, sinners, unholy, idolaters, etc. so that God gave them commandments, statutes, ordinances, regulations, judgements ~ the Law. 

Be that as it is, the law which brought them condemnation and death, serveth also to be their schoolmaster to bring them unto Christ, that they might be justified by faith.

Now above you see somewhat more clearly, but you do err concerning the law only condemning Israel because they broke it. The law is still binding and condemns everyone of us, and as a schoolmaster it still brings us sinners to Christ that we might be justified by faith in Him. Which justification includes being changed from law breakers to law keepers as the scriptures testify. Which those of the false gospel teach and preach but only and exclusively concerning the only commandment of God given to Israel which predates not only them but sin altogether. The sabbath was given to humanity before sin entered the world to a perfect people and creation of God. The one commandment which definitely was not given because of transgression, they now claim to be the very one abolished because the law was given because of transgression. You do err and wrongly divide the word of God. The sabbath was made for man before sin or transgression came into the world. It was not established because of transgression as may be said of the other commandments, and its observance most certainly has not been abolished as none of the other commandments have been either. Please look unto the words of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ to rightly divide the other words of the bible, and not the other way around.

Gen 2:1 Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them. 2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made. 3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

Mar 2:27 And he said unto them,
The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath: 28 Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath.

Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. 19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.


The following statement was made by our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ to His apostles in answer to a question they asked. It was part of Christ's prophecy concerning the future after Christ was no longer with us. Do you really think the Lord Jesus did not know that the sabbath would no longer be being observed at this time as you preach in your gospel, or are you of the belief that there are two separate gospels for Jews and Gentiles?

Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) 16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: 17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: 18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. 19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! 20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: 21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Please submit your gospel to the words and teachings of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, not the twisted testimonies of some of His apostles according to those described by Peter especially in reference to Paul unto their own destruction.

Christian Forums and Message Board

Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
« Reply #140 on: Sat Jan 04, 2020 - 18:52:33 »

Offline Amo

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5246
  • Manna: 49
  • (T)ogether (E)veryone (A)chieves (M)ore
Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
« Reply #141 on: Sat Jan 04, 2020 - 18:57:59 »
Quote
No Amo. I don't think that God established a faulty covenant that needed to be changed. And I don't think the fault with that covenant was with God. Those are false accusations, if not, a straw man you made up.

No I am not. And yes you are wrong.

Good. It is good to be wrong about some things. So what do you claim was wrong with the old covenant, that causes the ten commandments to have to be done away with? The fourth in particular?


Offline winsome

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5612
  • Manna: 94
  • Gender: Male
Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
« Reply #142 on: Sun Jan 05, 2020 - 05:43:25 »

Sorry dude. We all have the scriptures and can read them for ourselves. They say God spoke the ten commandments with His own mouth, and wrote them with His own finger twice.
And gave them to Moses to give to the people.

Ex 19 tells us that it was Moses that went up the mountain.

It was to Moses that God spoke
The people said to Moses:  “You speak to us, and we will hear; but let not God speak to us, lest we die.” (Ex 20:19) and it continues 
"And the Lord said to Moses..." (vs 22).

God spoke to Moses and gave him all the laws. The it says: Moses came and told the people all the words of the Lord and all the ordinances; and all the people answered with one voice, and said, “All the words which the Lord has spoken we will do.” (Ex 24:3).   
Concerning the tablets it says that God instructed Moses to come up the mounrtain to receive the tablets and Moses then took them down to the people.And the Lord said to Moses, “Write these words; in accordance with these words I have made a covenant with you and with Israel.”  And he was there with the Lord forty days and forty nights; he neither ate bread nor drank water. And he wrote upon the tables the words of the covenant, the ten commandments. (Ex 34:27-28)
This clearly shows that the Ten Commandments were the Covenant Law given to Israel through Moses.  They were not given to anyone else.

Offline winsome

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5612
  • Manna: 94
  • Gender: Male
Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
« Reply #143 on: Sun Jan 05, 2020 - 05:56:04 »
So, can I take it form the above, that you believe humanity can sanctify themselves
Just presenting you with scriptures. But you seem to want to ignore them.

As you yourself said:
 "Ignoring scripture is not very healthy, though the habit is presently very prevalent."

Offline winsome

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5612
  • Manna: 94
  • Gender: Male
Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
« Reply #144 on: Sun Jan 05, 2020 - 06:21:26 »
Why act like no one has a bible to refute your false claims? The sabbath commandment itself is a direct reference to the creation account and God blessing and sanctifying the seventh day at the end of the same. You now the six days of creation referred to in the sabbath commandment, and the fact that God blessed it at that time. There seems to be an epidemic of people just simply ignoring scripture that doesn't fit their teachings.

God rested on the seventh day of creation after the work he had done. Yes he blessed it.
BUT:   
Scripture doesn't say God rested every seventh day and worked in between. 
Scripture doesn't say God blessed and made holy every seventh day. 

You are just inventing scripture to back up your false teachings.

No, the Jews weren't keeping God's sabbath after becoming slaves to the Egyptians, thus the Lord said "remember" His sabbath. You can't remember something that has never been before.
.
There is no evidence whatsoever that the Jews or anyone else kept the sabbath before God introduced it in Ex 16:23.
In Ex 16 God had to teach them about the sabbath (though Moses).
It was in Ex 20 when God gave the Ten commandment he told them to remember to keep the sabbath - the one he had taught them in Ex 16.

Yes, the covenant with Israel was different than the covenants previous to it. Much more detailed for one thing. Is there some kind of point to this fact?
You tell me what you think the point is.

Christian Forums and Message Board

Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
« Reply #144 on: Sun Jan 05, 2020 - 06:21:26 »



Offline winsome

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5612
  • Manna: 94
  • Gender: Male
Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
« Reply #145 on: Sun Jan 05, 2020 - 06:39:57 »
Are Christians obliged to keep any part of the Old Testament Law (The Law of Moses), including in particular the “Ten Commandments”?.
The simple answer is no.
The OT Laws were part of the Old (Sinai) Covenant and Christians are under the New Covenant.
Moreover the Sinai Covenant given only for the Jews. It was never given for Gentiles.

We can see this clearly in Dt. 5:1-9
1 And Moses summoned all Israel, and said to them, "Hear, O Israel, the statutes and the ordinances which I speak in your hearing this day, and you shall learn them and be careful to do them.
2 The Lord our God made a covenant with us in Horeb.
3 Not with our fathers did the Lord make this covenant, but with us, who are all of us here alive this day.
4 The Lord spoke with you face to face at the mountain, out of the midst of the fire,
5 while I stood between the Lord and you at that time, to declare to you the word of the LORD; for you were afraid because of the fire, and you did not go up into the mountain. He said:
6 "'I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
7 "'You shall have no other gods before me………

22 "These words the Lord spoke to all your assembly at the mountain out of the midst of the fire, the cloud, and the thick darkness, with a loud voice; and he added no more. And he wrote them upon two tables of stone, and gave them to me…….

27 Go near, and hear all that the Lord our God will say; and speak to us all that the Lord our God will speak to you; and we will hear and do it.'


This very clearly shows that the Ten Commandments were given the Israelites at Horeb (Sinai) as part of the Covenant Law.
The Covenant was made between God and the Israelites with Moses as Covenant Mediator.

Paul says:
Therefore remember that at one time you Gentiles in the flesh, called the uncircumcision by what is called the circumcision, which is made in the flesh by hands-- remember that you were at that time separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. (Eph 2:12)
Gentiles were strangers to the covenant.

Paul says to the Galatian Gentiles who were Judaising
Tell me, you who desire to be under law, do you not hear the law? For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by a slave and one by a free woman. But the son of the slave was born according to the flesh, the son of the free woman through promise. Now this is an allegory: these women are two covenants. One is from Mount Sinai, bearing children for slavery; she is Hagar. Now Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia; she corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her children. But the Jerusalem above is free, and she is our mother. For it is written, "Rejoice, O barren one who does not bear; break forth and shout, you who are not in travail; for the children of the desolate one are many more than the children of her that is married." Now we, brethren, like Isaac, are children of promise. But as at that time he who was born according to the flesh persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, so it is now. But what does the scripture say? "Cast out the slave and her son; for the son of the slave shall not inherit with the son of the free woman." So, brethren, we are not children of the slave but of the free woman.  (Gal 4:21-31)

He is clear. To go back to Judaism (accepting the Law) is to put yourself back into slavery.

He goes on to warn them:.
You are separated from Christ, you who are trying to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace. (Gal 5:4)

The Jews recognise 613 laws within the Law of Moses. For Jews the Law was indivisible.
whoever keeps the whole law, but falls short in one particular, has become guilty in respect to all of it. (Jas 2:10).
“Cursed be everyone who does not persevere in doing all the things written in the book of the law.” (Gal 3:10)

The Law was a mixture of moral, ceremonial and regulatory precepts. For example in Leviticus 19 we have the following (among others)
You shall not steal. You shall not lie or speak falsely to one another. You shall not swear falsely by my name, thus profaning the name of your God. I am the Lord (vs 11-12)
Keep my statutes: do not breed any of your domestic animals with others of a different species; do not sow a field of yours with two different kinds of seed; and do not put on a garment woven with two different kinds of thread (vs 19)
Do not eat meat with the blood still in it. Do not practice divination or soothsaying. Do not clip your hair at the temples, nor trim the edges of your beard (vs 26-27)

Do we observe them all today? The answer is clearly no. But equally we do regard some as binding on us.
These latter are what we consider as moral laws. They bare binding on us because they are binding on all people for all times not because they are in the Ten Commandments
But note that moral laws they are not confined to the Ten Commandments. For example fornication is not one of the Ten Commandments but is clearly condemned in the New Testament (1Cor 6:9)
The Old Testament written law has been replaced by the New Testament law written not in ink but by the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets that are hearts of flesh. (2 Cor 3:3).

Firstly let us look at the case for the abolition of the OT Law starting with St. Paul’s letter to the Romans.
Are you unaware, brothers (for I am speaking to people who know the law [i.e. Jews]), that the law has jurisdiction over one as long as one lives? Thus a married woman is bound by law to her living husband; but if her husband dies, she is released from the law in respect to her husband. Consequently, while her husband is alive she will be called an adulteress if she consorts with another man. But if her husband dies she is free from that law, and she is not an adulteress if she consorts with another man.
In the same way, my brothers, you also were put to death to the law through the body of Christ, so that you might belong to another, to the one who was raised from the dead in order that we might bear fruit for God. For when we were in the flesh, our sinful passions, awakened by the law, worked in our members to bear fruit for death. But now we are released from the law, dead to what held us captive, so that we may serve in the newness of the spirit and not under the obsolete letter.
(Rom 7:1-6)
We [Jews] are put to death to the Law
We [Jews] are released from the Law


Note particularly that this is particularly relevant because God considered himself “married” to Israel. When Jesus died the Covenant ended and Jesus was free to take a new bride – the Church.

Paul himself declares he is no longer under the Law.
To the Jews I became as a Jew, in order to win Jews; to those under the law I became as one under the law--though not being myself under the law--that I might win those under the law. To those outside the law [Gentiles] I became as one outside the law--not being without law toward God but under the law of Christ--that I might win those outside the law. (1Cor 9:20-21)

He also makes here a clear distinction between those under the Law (the Jews) and those not under the Law (the Gentiles)

Galatians 3:
Before faith came, we [Jews] were held in custody under law, confined for the faith that was to be revealed. Consequently, the law was our disciplinarian for Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a disciplinarian. (Gal 3:23-25).
We (Jews) are not under the Law

Paul describes the Jews and Gentiles as separated but then he says:
But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near in the blood of Christ. For he is our peace, who has made us both one, and has broken down the dividing wall of hostility, by abolishing in his flesh the law of commandments and ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, (Eph 2:13-15)
The Law has been abolished.

Col 2 says much the same:
And you, who were dead in trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses, having cancelled the bond which stood against us with its legal demands; this he set aside, nailing it to the cross. (Col 2:14)

Does this include the Ten Commandments? Yes, because the Law in indivisible.
For whoever keeps the whole law, but falls short in one particular, has become guilty in respect to all of it.  For he who said, “You shall not commit adultery,” also said, “You shall not kill.” Even if you do not commit adultery but kill, you have become a transgressor of the law. (Jas 2:10-11)

Moreover there are specific texts that show this:
Now if the ministry of death, carved in letters on stone, was so glorious that the Israelites could not look intently at the face of Moses because of its glory that was going to fade, how much more will the ministry of the Spirit be glorious? (2 Cor 3:7-8)
What was carved in letters on stone and therefore described as “the ministry of death”. Answer – the Ten Commandments

The Book of Hebrews makes this replacement of the Old Covenant by the New very clear.
On the one hand, a former commandment is annulled because of its weakness and uselessness, for the law brought nothing to perfection; on the other hand, a better hope is introduced, through which we draw near to God. (Heb 7:18-19)

When there is a change of priesthood, there is necessarily a change of law as well. (Heb 7:12)

For if that first covenant had been faultless, no place would have been sought for a second one. But he finds fault with them and says: “Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will conclude a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah. (Heb 8:7-8)
 
When he speaks of a “new” covenant, he declares the first one obsolete. And what has become obsolete and has grown old is close to disappearing (Heb 8:13).

He takes away the first to establish the second (Heb 10:9)

We are now living under the New Law of the New Covenant. This New Law is written on our hearts. Hebrews 8:8-10 quotes Jeremiah 31:31-33:
Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will conclude a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah. It will not be like the covenant I made with their fathers the day I took them by the hand to lead them forth from the land of Egypt; for they did not stand by my covenant and I ignored them, says the Lord.

But this is the covenant I will establish with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put my laws in their minds and I will write them upon their hearts. I will be their God, and they shall be my people. (Taken from Heb)

So what is this New Law? It is the Commandments of Jesus:
If you love me, you will keep my commandments. (Jn 14:15)
If you keep my commandments, you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commandments and remain in his love. (Jn 15:10)

Offline 4WD

  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 10940
  • Manna: 307
  • (T)ogether (E)veryone (A)chieves (M)ore
Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
« Reply #146 on: Sun Jan 05, 2020 - 07:04:06 »
Winsome, I think you conflate the Law of Moses and the Old Covenant.  The Old Covenant was based upon the Law of Moses but the two are not the same.  An essential difference between the New Covenant and the Old Covenant is not the absence of law in the New Covenant but rather the means for obtaining forgiveness under the New Covenant for failure to keep God's law.  The law, i.e., God's law, was not destroyed or eliminated.  There are numerous passages in the NT showing that the law remains; that we are not under the law does not mean that we no longer need to obey the law.  It means that believers who have been saved are not responsible to submit to the penalty for breaking the law, since Christ has paid the penalty in full.  That is what is meant by Christ having fulfilled the law.

Offline beam

  • Blessed are the cracked, they are the ones who let in the Light.
  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 499
  • Manna: 6
  • Gender: Male
  • (T)ogether (E)veryone (A)chieves (M)ore
Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
« Reply #147 on: Sun Jan 05, 2020 - 07:30:41 »
Again Beam, I wasn’t and haven’t been talking about salvation. I am talking about COULD the Jews have obeyed in order to be blessed by God and not cursed? I say YES or God was a liar in making the promise to them. Would it have to be perfect obedience? Obviously NOT if they are incapable of that.
Apparently God didn't believe they would be able to be obedient to all the laws.  There would not have been a plan made before the foundation of the Earth to redeem mankind.  Jesus was to be the scapegoat bearing all our sins.  All the events in the Bible are parts of the plan of salvation.   Man is playing out that plan.

Offline Jaime

  • (Pronounced Hi-Me, not Ja-Me)
  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 36357
  • Manna: 785
  • Gender: Male
  • I AM A DEPLORABLE
Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
« Reply #148 on: Sun Jan 05, 2020 - 07:34:19 »
Exactly, God didn’t expect perfect obedience in order to Bless Israel. If be did he lied in His promise. Jesus was needed to save man, not for God to bless OT Israel.

Offline beam

  • Blessed are the cracked, they are the ones who let in the Light.
  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 499
  • Manna: 6
  • Gender: Male
  • (T)ogether (E)veryone (A)chieves (M)ore
Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
« Reply #149 on: Sun Jan 05, 2020 - 07:50:00 »
Exactly, God didn’t expect perfect obedience in order to Bless Israel. If be did he lied in His promise. Jesus was needed to save man, not for God to bless OT Israel.
Abraham certainly was not perfect.  Look what God has done for him and through him.

Offline Jaime

  • (Pronounced Hi-Me, not Ja-Me)
  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 36357
  • Manna: 785
  • Gender: Male
  • I AM A DEPLORABLE
Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
« Reply #150 on: Sun Jan 05, 2020 - 07:56:18 »
Absolutely.

Offline winsome

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5612
  • Manna: 94
  • Gender: Male
Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
« Reply #151 on: Sun Jan 05, 2020 - 13:20:24 »
Winsome, I think you conflate the Law of Moses and the Old Covenant.  The Old Covenant was based upon the Law of Moses but the two are not the same. 

The Law of Moses was the Law that was given through Moses for the Old (Sinai/Mosaic) Covenant.
An essential difference between the New Covenant and the Old Covenant is not the absence of law in the New Covenant but rather the means for obtaining forgiveness under the New Covenant for failure to keep God's law. 
There are a lot of differences between the Old Covenant and the New Covenant but I agree that the means for obtaining forgiveness is one of them.

The law, i.e., God's law, was not destroyed or eliminated.  There are numerous passages in the NT showing that the law remains; that we are not under the law does not mean that we no longer need to obey the law. 

I think you are here confusing God eternal moral law with the Old Covenant Law.
God's moral law - valid for all people for all time, was codified in the Sinai Covenant. That codification ceased to be valid when the Covenant ceased. We are not under that Old Law. It does not have jurisdiction over us.

However God's eternal moral law continues and indeed can be found in the NT.
For example God forbids murder. It is part of his eternal moral law.
The first explicit statement on this is not the Ten Commandments but was addressed to Noah as part of the Noahide Covenant. Whoever sheds the blood of man, by man shall his blood be shed; for God made man in his own image.(Gen 9:6). 

However we know it was against God's law before that because when Cain slew Abel he knew he had done wrong (Gen 4:1-16) as did Lamech who slew a man (Gen 4:23-24). 

We find it in the New Covenant- Mt 5:21-22 & 1Jn 3:15..
It means that believers who have been saved are not responsible to submit to the penalty for breaking the law, since Christ has paid the penalty in full.  That is what is meant by Christ having fulfilled the law.
I disagree but that is a whole different issue.

Offline Cathlodox

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 166
  • Manna: 2
Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
« Reply #152 on: Sun Jan 05, 2020 - 17:03:00 »
Much of the SDA confusion about the Sabbath Command is due to their errant methods of interpreting Scripture...
...They believe that the Ten Commandments are a separate and different law than the law of Moses.
...This assertion made by the SDA's is easily debunked by Scripture.

Specifically Deuteronomy Chapter 5

God starts to SPEAK the Commandments & hearing the voice of God terrifies the Children of Israel...
...Who ask if its OK if Moses and just get the commandments from God and than give them to Israel.
....God says HE LIKED THIS IDEA!

Verse 29
Oh, that their hearts would be inclined to fear me and keep all my commands always, so that it might go well with them and their children forever! “Go, tell them to return to their tents. But you stay here with me so that I may give you all the commands, decrees and laws you are to teach them to follow in the land I am giving them to possess.”

The Ten Commandments were just the starting of the Commandments, God, out of care for the terrified Children of Israel STOPPED directly with the COI and instead gave them to Moses who transmitted the information to the COI.

So much for the "10 Commandment law"


Offline Michael2012

  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 3641
  • Manna: 12
Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
« Reply #153 on: Mon Jan 06, 2020 - 02:39:55 »
The commandments of God are not addressed or mentioned in Colossians 2 at all. The only commandments mentioned are the commandments of men. The ten commandments are the commandments of God as scripture calls them over and over again. The seventh day Sabbath is God's sabbath as scripture calls it over and over again. The sabbath Paul is referring to can not be the fourth commandment for both of these reasons. That which God allowed Moses, a man to write, may be referred to as the commandments of men. The sabbath being addressed therefore would have to be from among those writings and not the commandments of God spoken by His own mouth, written by His own hand twice, and called His many times over in scripture. They are sabbaths related to the ceremonial, civil, or agricultural laws of Israel. Not the sabbath established by our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ at creation which He commanded Israel to remember and keep with His own mouth, and wrote for them with His own finger. This same sabbath which he taught the proper observance of when here as one of us. This is my point. The context of Colossians 2 does not allow for it to be God's sabbath or command that is being addressed.

If you don't see the law in Colossians 2, perhaps you need some help on that. Let me help you see it in the following passage in Colossians 2.

13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;


Concerning the believers (the "you" in verse 13), that is the Christians, all their trespasses were forgiven, having all ordinances that was against them and contrary to them, blotted out and taken out of the way.

You seem to teach that these handwriting of ordinances which are said to be against them and contrary to them refers to commandments of men. Far from it sir. What does the blotting out or wiping out of the commandments of men that you make reference to have to do with what is said in verse 13? There is none. These handwriting of ordinances spoken of there are exactly that which condemned them to be guilty of sin which rendered them dead. These are which are said to have been blotted out and taken out of the way.

Regarding the following passage in Colossians 2.

16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:

17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.


Clearly those mentioned in verse 16 which has to do with eating, drinking, of holy days, new moons and even sabbath days are said in verse 17 to be a shadow of things to come, the body of which is of Christ. If a shadow is of the body of Christ, I am sure there is no debate that it cannot be spoken of as something bad or evil.

You contend that they are sabbaths related to the ceremonial, civil, or agricultural laws of Israel.

What they are are the dietary (meat and drink) observances, festival (holyday and new moons) observances, and sabbath day observances. These observances were like "shadows" of Christ (v.17).

Having cleared that up, let me comment on what you speak about concerning the sabbath. You speak of God's Sabbath as though there is some other sabbath, perhaps man's sabbath? You speak of sabbaths related to the ceremonial, civil, or agricultural laws of Israel, or what you call ceremonial sabbaths, and speak of seventh day Sabbath. You seem to speak of sabbath in many different senses and meanings. Please tell us then what do you mean when you speak of Sabbath so we can understand what it is you are actually saying to us regarding the Sabbath.

« Last Edit: Mon Jan 06, 2020 - 03:40:10 by Michael2012 »

Offline Michael2012

  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 3641
  • Manna: 12
Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
« Reply #154 on: Mon Jan 06, 2020 - 03:35:43 »
No I was not saying that I am a descendant of Jacob, though I do have Jewish lineage in the family history, and do consider myself a spiritual descendant Jacob by faith. God's covenant with Israel, was His covenant with those who would be His people during that era before the coming of Jesus Christ. Those who would be of Christ during this new covenant age are graft into the vine, not saved separate from it.

To say that God's covenant with Israel, was His covenant with those who would be His people during that era before the coming of Jesus Christ isn't quite what scriptures says it is. God's covenant with Israel is with Israel. There can't be a mistake on that. For it is the covenant that God made with their fathers in the day when God took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt. While there were non Jews perhaps who may well have themselves be in that covenant with God, it does not take away the fact that it is with Israel in particular that God have this covenant and not with all men. So that, this covenant with the covenant laws therefore, is effective not with all men, but Israel in particular, and those who, by and according to the covenant law are brought into this covenant with God.

Offline Michael2012

  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 3641
  • Manna: 12
Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
« Reply #155 on: Mon Jan 06, 2020 - 03:43:06 »
Quote from: Michael
You aren't my judge as to whether I properly divide the word of God or not, unless you claim to have authority and claim to have perfect knowledge of scriptures, as the chosen apostles have. So that comment of yours is nothing but what comes from your pride and not from God nor from scriptures.
That is of course my take on your position, just as you no doubt think the same of mine. God will address and straighten this issue out when Jesus returns along with all others.

Then there is really no need then to say such things.

Offline beam

  • Blessed are the cracked, they are the ones who let in the Light.
  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 499
  • Manna: 6
  • Gender: Male
  • (T)ogether (E)veryone (A)chieves (M)ore
Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
« Reply #156 on: Mon Jan 06, 2020 - 08:30:53 »
If you don't see the law in Colossians 2, perhaps you need some help on that. Let me help you see it in the following passage in Colossians 2.

13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;


Concerning the believers (the "you" in verse 13), that is the Christians, all their trespasses were forgiven, having all ordinances that was against them and contrary to them, blotted out and taken out of the way.

You seem to teach that these handwriting of ordinances which are said to be against them and contrary to them refers to commandments of men. Far from it sir. What does the blotting out or wiping out of the commandments of men that you make reference to have to do with what is said in verse 13? There is none. These handwriting of ordinances spoken of there are exactly that which condemned them to be guilty of sin which rendered them dead. These are which are said to have been blotted out and taken out of the way.
I like your response to Amo.  Paul reinforces Col2 when he wrote 2Cor3:6-11.  There he is telling us that the 10 commandments were the commandments that brought death.  Those commandments were hand written by God and became the death sentence to those they were given.  In those verses Paul wrote that they were done away, KJV.  Jews are no longer under the laws of the Covenant given to them at Sinai.  Gentiles never were and Christians along with all mankind are under the covenant given by Jesus at Calvary.  Our guide is not the ten commandments, our guide is the Holy Spirit given by Jesus at Pentecost.  Our commandments are to love God and our fellow man.  The new covenant is not about ritual laws of the old covenant.

I appreciate your comments.


Offline Jaime

  • (Pronounced Hi-Me, not Ja-Me)
  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 36357
  • Manna: 785
  • Gender: Male
  • I AM A DEPLORABLE
Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
« Reply #157 on: Mon Jan 06, 2020 - 08:33:46 »
Those two are the SUMMATION of the entire Law and the Prophets. The 10 commandments are nothing BUT how to love God and love our fellow man.

Would you agree that those that do not love God or their fellow man as per the two greatest commandments also have a death sentence?
« Last Edit: Mon Jan 06, 2020 - 08:50:04 by Jaime »

Offline beam

  • Blessed are the cracked, they are the ones who let in the Light.
  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 499
  • Manna: 6
  • Gender: Male
  • (T)ogether (E)veryone (A)chieves (M)ore
Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
« Reply #158 on: Mon Jan 06, 2020 - 09:19:57 »
Those two are the SUMMATION of the entire Law and the Prophets. (Strike through beam's addition) The 10 commandments are nothing BUT how to love God and love our fellow man.
There is nothing in the ten commandments that would indicate they were about love.  The way they are written indicates they were about the Israelites duty and/or fear to their fellow man and God.   The love commands are found in the books on Leviticus and Deuteronomy.   Israelites of faith would love to keep the commands of God.

Quote
Would you agree that those that do not love God or their fellow man as per the two greatest commandments also have a death sentence?
I know that everyone on Earth falls short of those commands.  But wait, what about the Blood of Jesus.  What about the sacrifice for all mankind.  I agree we all deserve death.  Jesus didn't believe that and came to become the bearer of all our iniquities.  Jn 5:24 ‘Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.  Jn3:16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

Offline Jaime

  • (Pronounced Hi-Me, not Ja-Me)
  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 36357
  • Manna: 785
  • Gender: Male
  • I AM A DEPLORABLE
Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
« Reply #159 on: Mon Jan 06, 2020 - 09:34:11 »
I would say every one of the 10 commandments are about two things, how to deal with (love) God or how to deal with (love) fellow man.

Jesus properly added the Spirit of the law to most of them. Don’t just not kill, do not harbor anger in your heart. Don’t just not commit adultry. Do not have lust in your heart.

How are people to love God? One thing have no other gods before him and make no idols or graven images. The whole thing is about dealing with or loving God and dealing with or loving our fellow man. That is why the two greatest commands are a SUMMATION of the Law and prophets. When Jesus raised the bar, it’s REALLY a broader death sentence. It’s easy to not kill or commit adultry, but not so easy to not have anger or lust in my heart.
« Last Edit: Mon Jan 06, 2020 - 13:58:43 by Jaime »

Offline Michael2012

  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 3641
  • Manna: 12
Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
« Reply #160 on: Mon Jan 06, 2020 - 11:28:20 »
Quote from: Michael
You asked "So are all who lived under the instructions of God mind you, during the old covenant lost unto eternal death according to that covenant?" God made a covenant with Israel at the time of Moses in the day when God took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt.

Regarding your question, consider what scriptures says:

2 Cor.3 :6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:

8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?

9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.

10 For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth.

In the above quoted passage, one could see two ministration spoken of. In verse 6, we can identify them as one of the letter and the other of the spirit. If you'll accept, Paul takes reference to the ministry of the Law (Law of Moses, of the letter), and to the ministry of the Spirit (of the spirit).

Now, the ten commandments are included and embodied in the Law of Moses. As such they are of the ministry of the Law. Paul speaks of this ministry of the Law as being of the letter and that which killeth (v.6). So that in verse 7, Paul calls it the ministration of death. He also calls it the ministration of condemnation. Now, don't you see it and agree then that the Law given to Israel through Moses, which were written and engraven in stones, is AGAINST them (Israel), which brought them condemnation and death? As Paul explicitly declared concerning the ministry of the Law, that is, "the letter killeth".
I say you are wrongly dividing the word of God again. God who is spirit, spoke the ten commandments with His own mouth, and wrote them with His own hand twice. Are you suggesting that God's law is not of the spirit but only of the letter? I say this is because you wrongly divide the scriptures and the writings of Paul as well, and then apply a meaning to said scriptures that make the word of God and even Paul contradict itself. This is why I believe you wrongly divide the word of God. Your application causes to many contradictions in the word of God itself. God is spirit, nothing proceeding from Him or His mouth is simply by the letter or carnal in any way shape or form. His law does condemn to death as it is meant to do, to convict the heart and drive the sinner to the foot of the cross for forgiveness and salvation. It is also the standard of righteousness which our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ lived out in our flesh. Which He stated that He did not come to change but fulfill, that such might be fulfilled within our lives as well. All of this is scriptural and without contradiction.

Proclaiming that the law is abolished because it is not of the spirit or carnal, is not scriptural, but contradicts scripture. This is why I reject your gospel as false, and an example of wrongly dividing the word of God.

Psa 19:7 The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple. 8 The statutes of the LORD are right, rejoicing the heart: the commandment of the LORD is pure, enlightening the eyes.

Rom 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet. 8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead. 9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. 10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death. 11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me. 12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good. 13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful. 14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: 4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. 8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.


The law is perfect, good, holy and spiritual. It helps convert the soul. This is the testimony of the scriptures and Paul. It is the carnal mind that is not subject to the law, not the spiritual mind. The law which proceeded out of the mouth of God who is spirit, has never needed to change and will not change. The sinner who is carnal has always needed to change and must change. This is the testimony of scripture. Gospels which contradict this testimony calling the law non spiritual or simply of the letter and needing to be changed, are false gospels which do not rightly divide the word of God but rather make it contradict itself.

If you believe you are the one rightly dividing the word of God, you are mistaken and is deceived.

You see, what Paul says in 2 Cor. 3 concerning the two ministrations is very clear. He speaks in verse 7 of a ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, a ministration of the spirit in verse 8, a ministration of condemnation and a ministration of righteousness in verse 9. And I guess you don't want to tell us what Paul refers to by those.

You say "Proclaiming that the law is abolished because it is not of the spirit or carnal, is not scriptural, but contradicts scripture.". That's right. That is why I did not say such. So if you reject that, that's good. I too reject that. I wonder who said that to you.

There is no issue and debate on whether the laws of God, His statutes and commandments are holy, and just, and good, and that the law is spiritual. For indeed they are. And yes, the Law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul. There is no issue and debate on that.

But then, that does not take away nor change what scriptures had testified of as to the purpose of God in giving it to them. It does not change the truth that the law was made for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, for whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine. It does not change the truth that God made a covenant with Israel, whose mediator was Moses, and wherein the written Law was given to them, to being their obligation to keep and to live by them. Paul later told us why such a written Law, the law, was given in covenant to them. That is, it was given and added because of their transgressions (sin). And this is understood well in that, as Paul had said of the law, that by the law is the knowledge of sin. Paul expressed this more clearly when he said "I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, “You shall not covet.” Remember also, sin is not imputed when there is no law. With the giving of the written law then, there is then a written code which serves, among others, to be what may well be considered as a legal instrument whereby offense is defined, and judged, such as that it imputes sin or offense upon the guilty. So we can see by that, that the law brings about wrath, condemnation, and death. This is what can be understood in what Paul is telling us about the law, that he refers to it as "the letter", "written and engraven in stone", "the ministration of condemnation", "the ministration of death".   

But the good news is, there is now a better and more glorious covenant, the "new covenant", whose mediator is Jesus Christ. In contrast to the former covenant, the "old covenant", where what was given is the law, in this covenant, what is given is the Holy Spirit. In this new covenant, is the ministration of righteousness and the ministration of the spirit, and the ministration of life, as the Spirit gives life.

Offline Michael2012

  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 3641
  • Manna: 12
Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
« Reply #161 on: Mon Jan 06, 2020 - 13:44:13 »
Now above you see somewhat more clearly, but you do err concerning the law only condemning Israel because they broke it. The law is still binding and condemns everyone of us, and as a schoolmaster it still brings us sinners to Christ that we might be justified by faith in Him. Which justification includes being changed from law breakers to law keepers as the scriptures testify. Which those of the false gospel teach and preach but only and exclusively concerning the only commandment of God given to Israel which predates not only them but sin altogether. The sabbath was given to humanity before sin entered the world to a perfect people and creation of God. The one commandment which definitely was not given because of transgression, they now claim to be the very one abolished because the law was given because of transgression. You do err and wrongly divide the word of God. The sabbath was made for man before sin or transgression came into the world. It was not established because of transgression as may be said of the other commandments, and its observance most certainly has not been abolished as none of the other commandments have been either. Please look unto the words of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ to rightly divide the other words of the bible, and not the other way around.

Gen 2:1 Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them. 2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made. 3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

Mar 2:27 And he said unto them,
The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath: 28 Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath.

Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. 19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.


The following statement was made by our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ to His apostles in answer to a question they asked. It was part of Christ's prophecy concerning the future after Christ was no longer with us. Do you really think the Lord Jesus did not know that the sabbath would no longer be being observed at this time as you preach in your gospel, or are you of the belief that there are two separate gospels for Jews and Gentiles?

Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) 16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: 17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: 18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. 19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! 20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: 21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Please submit your gospel to the words and teachings of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, not the twisted testimonies of some of His apostles according to those described by Peter especially in reference to Paul unto their own destruction.

You said "The law is still binding and condemns everyone of us". That's a sad thing for you if you say and believe that you are bound by the law. By that, you are under  the law and so condemns you. But this is what I believe, that there is now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus. I am under grace, not under the law.

You said "The sabbath was given to humanity before sin entered the world to a perfect people and creation of God." and "The sabbath was made for man before sin or transgression came into the world." . By saying "before sin entered the world", I am sure you are referring to the time before Eve and Adam sinned. There is no scriptures which support what you preach there about the sabbath. Please provide the scriptures which teach what you preach. If there is none that you can give, that would obviously mean that what you preach there is a false teaching. If you'll cite Genesis 2:1-3, you'd better read it again and repeatedly until you see that it does not teach what you preach. 

With regards Mark 2:27, it does say "The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath". I wonder what you understand it to be saying or if you understand what it says.

Regarding Mt. 5:17-18, may I ask you, would you say that Jesus had fulfilled the Law?

You asked "Do you really think the Lord Jesus did not know that the sabbath would no longer be being observed at this time as you preach in your gospel, or are you of the belief that there are two separate gospels for Jews and Gentiles?"

First, the passage does not at all speak about the sabbath observance. The mention of the sabbath together with winter in verse 20 is simply to bring out the severe difficulty of those days spoken of by Daniel the prophet. Besides, to whom do you think is Jesus talking to in Mt.24? Was it not to His disciples who are Jews? And we can expect, at least with the observant Jews, the observance of the sabbath.

Second, I am not preaching what you say I preach there nor am I preaching "my" gospel.  That's a lie coming from you, if not, a false accusation. Also, my belief is that there are not two separate gospels. There is only one gospel.
« Last Edit: Tue Jan 07, 2020 - 08:17:43 by Michael2012 »

Offline GB

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1289
  • Manna: 9
  • Gender: Male
Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
« Reply #162 on: Mon Jan 06, 2020 - 14:07:47 »
Those two are the SUMMATION of the entire Law and the Prophets. The 10 commandments are nothing BUT how to love God and love our fellow man.

Would you agree that those that do not love God or their fellow man as per the two greatest commandments also have a death sentence?

Agreed.

 It is written "The Law is for the sinner". If I am going into a store and there is a "Law" posted that reads; " No Shoplifting, shoplifters with be prosecuted".

Is that law for me?

That would depend on whether or not I am a shoplifter or whether or not I respect the creator of the "Law". If I'm not a shoplifter, or if I respect the creator of the "Law" enough to follow the sign, then the "LAW" isn't for me. The "law" will have absolutely zero consequence to me when I enter, or when I leave.

But if I was a shoplifter, or didn't respect the creator of the "Law" enough to abide by it, then this sign is definitely for me. It tells me not to shoplift, and it tells me what will happen if I do.

The Ten Commandments are the same. They are not for men who know Him and already respect the Christ, who created them, enough to abide by them, they are made for those folks who don't know Him or don't respect the Christ who created them enough to follow them.

"thou shall not commit adultery" Who is this "LAW" for? Faithful men, or unfaithful men?

"Remember the Sabbath to Keep it Holy" Who is this "LAW" for?  Men who respect the Christ's Sabbath? Or men who reject the Christ's Sabbath?

And how can I know how to Love God and my fellow man, if my creator doesn't tell me? And when he does, who am I to judge His Law one way or the other.

Great reply Jaime :)




 

Offline Michael2012

  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 3641
  • Manna: 12
Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
« Reply #163 on: Mon Jan 06, 2020 - 14:08:52 »
So what do you claim was wrong with the old covenant, that causes the ten commandments to have to be done away with? The fourth in particular?

I don't claim anything implied in your question there. For what was done away with is the covenant that God made with Israel in the day when God took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt. Now, in this covenant, God gave them the Law which among many other commandments, statutes, ordinances, regulations, judgments, includes the ten commandments which God had by Himself written in stone. This covenant, and so together with all that makes it up, was replaced by a new covenant. As to why there is this new covenant, read Hebrews 8.

Offline 4WD

  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 10940
  • Manna: 307
  • (T)ogether (E)veryone (A)chieves (M)ore
Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
« Reply #164 on: Tue Jan 07, 2020 - 05:11:59 »
We are not under that Old Law. It does not have jurisdiction over us.
Those are two separate statements.  The believer is not under God's law.  However, God's law has jurisdiction over everyone.  It is just that for the believer, the penalty for breaking the law has been paid by Jesus' sacrifice on the cross.  That is what it means that Jesus fulfilled the law. The believer accepts His fulfillment of the law and therefore is not under [the penalty of] the law. But all who are not believers are definitely under the law.

Offline Cathlodox

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 166
  • Manna: 2
Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
« Reply #165 on: Tue Jan 07, 2020 - 10:31:33 »
4WD,

Are you saying that the law of Moses (1st five books of the Bible) is still in force? I'm not talking about the MORAL Commandments (which I agree would be perpetually in force)  I'm speaking of the Ceremonial or Ritualistic Commandments that required supernatural communication so that they would be known.

Offline winsome

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5612
  • Manna: 94
  • Gender: Male
Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
« Reply #166 on: Tue Jan 07, 2020 - 10:33:12 »
Those are two separate statements.  The believer is not under God's law.  However, God's law has jurisdiction over everyone.  It is just that for the believer, the penalty for breaking the law has been paid by Jesus' sacrifice on the cross.  That is what it means that Jesus fulfilled the law. The believer accepts His fulfillment of the law and therefore is not under [the penalty of] the law. But all who are not believers are definitely under the law.
You are not distinguishing between God's laws.There are God's moral laws, applicable to all people in all times.And there are God's particular laws under particular covenants that are only applicable to those in that covenant.God does not punish us for breaking a law that he gave specifically to Israelites under the Mosaic Covenant.

Offline winsome

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5612
  • Manna: 94
  • Gender: Male
Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
« Reply #167 on: Tue Jan 07, 2020 - 11:00:07 »
Hi @4WD and @Cathlodox

Let me explain how I see the issue of  God's laws and jurisdiction.

Firstly take a secular example.

I live in England and am under the jurisdiction of  English law. If I commit murder I am tried and convicted under English law.

If I go to the USA I am under the jurisdiction of American law. If I commit murder I am tried and convicted under American law.

They both have a law concerning murder (although some details may be different) but the jurisdictions are different. I am judged under the jurisdiction I am under.

God had moral laws which apply to all people at all times (eternal moral laws).

But under different covenants they are codified for that particular covenant.
If I am not in that covenant I am not judged under that covenant. It does not have jurisdiction over me either for moral or non moral laws.

Let's say:
Old (Mosaic) Covenant = England
New Covenant = USA

If I am in USA (New Covenant) none of the laws of England (Old Covenant) apply to me - murder, or just driving on the left side of the road.
The New Covenant Laws (USA) apply - murder and driving on the right had side of the road.

Offline 4WD

  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 10940
  • Manna: 307
  • (T)ogether (E)veryone (A)chieves (M)ore
Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
« Reply #168 on: Tue Jan 07, 2020 - 11:06:17 »
4WD,

Are you saying that the law of Moses (1st five books of the Bible) is still in force? I'm not talking about the MORAL Commandments (which I agree would be perpetually in force)  I'm speaking of the Ceremonial or Ritualistic Commandments that required supernatural communication so that they would be known.
The law establishes what is sin.  Sin is lawlessness.  When sin is committed, then punishment is required by God, Himself.  Under the Old Covenant, God provided the means for obtaining atonement for the sins.  However even then, the payment of the penalty for those sins, atoned for or not, had not been paid fully.  Under the new covenant atonement and payment of the penalty have been provided for the believer, and only for the believer.  What constitutes sin is still disobedience of the law.

Someone here, I have forgotten who, pointed out that the actions of the priests, the sacrifices, etc. are not really a part of the law; rather they were the means of obtaining forgiveness for committing the sins.  The law stands; the means for obtaining forgiveness and payment of the debt has been changed.  Some other things were changed as well.  Some of the dietary limitations were changed.  Some of the marriage [and divorce] limitations have been changed.  Some of the special observances, the special days, etc., have been changed.  In some cases they were made more stringent, in some cases, less so.  But the basic fundamentals of the law remain in force.

When Paul declared that the believer is no longer under the law, he did not mean that the believer no longer needed to obey the law.  He meant that the believer was no longer responsible for payment of the penalty for breaking the law; that has been taken care of by the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross.

Offline Cathlodox

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 166
  • Manna: 2
Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
« Reply #169 on: Tue Jan 07, 2020 - 11:21:23 »
Hi Winsome, I agree with some of what you said.

I'm coming from a position that says that within the law of Moses there was "Moral" or "Natural" essence that "carried over into the New Covenant.

God is absolutely Moral and Perfect thus the law He gave would have it's base in Moral perfection.

Now, to be sure ANYTHING that required specialized communication (such as a the Sabbath) had a ceremonial aspect to it (as in what specific day). So too all the other Feasts of the Lord and the food laws.

These things are all ceremonial and I believe they terminated with the death and Resurrection of Jesus.

Leviticus 23

Offline Michael2012

  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 3641
  • Manna: 12
Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
« Reply #170 on: Tue Jan 07, 2020 - 11:29:45 »
I like your response to Amo.  Paul reinforces Col2 when he wrote 2Cor3:6-11.  There he is telling us that the 10 commandments were the commandments that brought death.  Those commandments were hand written by God and became the death sentence to those they were given.  In those verses Paul wrote that they were done away, KJV.  Jews are no longer under the laws of the Covenant given to them at Sinai.  Gentiles never were and Christians along with all mankind are under the covenant given by Jesus at Calvary.  Our guide is not the ten commandments, our guide is the Holy Spirit given by Jesus at Pentecost.  Our commandments are to love God and our fellow man.  The new covenant is not about ritual laws of the old covenant.

I appreciate your comments.

What Paul says in 2 Cor. 3 concerning the two ministrations is very clear ~ a ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, a ministration of condemnation; and a ministration of the spirit, a ministration of righteousness. This is referencing the two covenants ~ the old covenant and the new covenant.

Scriptures testifies of the truth that the law, the law given by God to Israel through Moses under the old covenant, was made for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, for whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine.

Scriptures testifies of the truth that God made a covenant with Israel, whose mediator was Moses, and wherein the written Law was given to them, to being their covenant obligation to keep and to live by. Paul later told us why such a written Law, the law, was given in covenant to them. That is, it was given and added because of their transgressions (sin). And this is understood well in that, as Paul had said of the law, that by the law is the knowledge of sin. Paul expressed this more clearly when he said "I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, “You shall not covet.” Remember also, sin is not imputed when there is no law. With the giving of the written law then under the old covenant between God and Israel, there is then a written code which serves, among others, to be what may well be considered as a legal instrument whereby offense is defined, and judged, such as that it imputes sin or offense upon the guilty, which in this case is with regards the covenant people. So we can see by that, that the law brings about wrath, condemnation, and death. This is what can be understood in what Paul is telling us about the law, that he refers to it as "the letter", "written and engraven in stone", "the ministration of condemnation", "the ministration of death".

But the good news is, there is now a better and more glorious covenant, the "new covenant", whose mediator is Jesus Christ. In contrast to the former covenant, the "old covenant", where what was given is the law, in this covenant, what is given is the Holy Spirit. In this new covenant, is the ministration of righteousness and the ministration of the spirit, and the ministration of life, as the Spirit gives life.

Scriptures testifies of the truth that the new covenant replaced the former covenant. So the former is no more and had been done away with. Now this new covenant is not between God and all mankind. For scriptures testifies in the book of Hebrews that it is a covenant God made with Israel. This is where some, I'd say get confused. I will not get into that now.

As my final comment, let me share this. In the old covenant, what was given was the Law, written in stones. Scripture said regarding the Law, that the man which doeth those things shall live by them. But concerning the old covenant, Scriptures tells us in Hebrews 8:7, "For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second." Now, there is nothing wrong with the law, for indeed the law is holy, and just, and good. Scriptures tells us further in Hebrews 8,  that it was with them that the fault lies ~ man being evidently weak in the flesh (sinful flesh) and is unable to continue in the covenant. So that God made a new covenant to replace it. In this new covenant, God puts His laws into the mind, and this time write His laws in the hearts, and not in stones as was in the old. By that, God says, as recorded in scriptures "they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest." In this new covenant, what is given is the Holy Spirit, even to dwell in them. Now the Lord is that Spirit. And so to whom the Holy Spirit is given, God dwells in him. And this is what Scriptures says concerning this, "But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you." These are just some of the better things of the new covenant, among others.     
« Last Edit: Tue Jan 07, 2020 - 12:53:07 by Michael2012 »

Offline winsome

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5612
  • Manna: 94
  • Gender: Male
Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
« Reply #171 on: Tue Jan 07, 2020 - 12:40:05 »
Hi Winsome, I agree with some of what you said.

I'm coming from a position that says that within the law of Moses there was "Moral" or "Natural" essence that "carried over into the New Covenant.

God is absolutely Moral and Perfect thus the law He gave would have it's base in Moral perfection.

Now, to be sure ANYTHING that required specialized communication (such as a the Sabbath) had a ceremonial aspect to it (as in what specific day). So too all the other Feasts of the Lord and the food laws.

These things are all ceremonial and I believe they terminated with the death and Resurrection of Jesus.

Leviticus 23
I understand.I've used the term carried over in the past but I think of it this way.
Think of a box labelled 'moral laws'. Then an arrow from the 'moral law' box to Mosaic Covenant Law showing that all moral laws are incorporated in the Mosaic Law.

Another arrow from the 'moral law' box to New Covenant showing that all moral laws are incorporated into New Covenant Law.

They are in both - it couldn't be otherwise - but not carried over from Mosaic Law to new Covenant law.

But either way non moral laws such as sabbath keeping  are not in the New Covenant Law.

Offline Michael2012

  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 3641
  • Manna: 12
Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
« Reply #172 on: Tue Jan 07, 2020 - 13:24:42 »
Agreed.

 It is written "The Law is for the sinner". If I am going into a store and there is a "Law" posted that reads; " No Shoplifting, shoplifters with be prosecuted".

Is that law for me?

That would depend on whether or not I am a shoplifter or whether or not I respect the creator of the "Law". If I'm not a shoplifter, or if I respect the creator of the "Law" enough to follow the sign, then the "LAW" isn't for me. The "law" will have absolutely zero consequence to me when I enter, or when I leave.

But if I was a shoplifter, or didn't respect the creator of the "Law" enough to abide by it, then this sign is definitely for me. It tells me not to shoplift, and it tells me what will happen if I do.

The Ten Commandments are the same. They are not for men who know Him and already respect the Christ, who created them, enough to abide by them, they are made for those folks who don't know Him or don't respect the Christ who created them enough to follow them.

"thou shall not commit adultery" Who is this "LAW" for? Faithful men, or unfaithful men?

"Remember the Sabbath to Keep it Holy" Who is this "LAW" for?  Men who respect the Christ's Sabbath? Or men who reject the Christ's Sabbath?

And how can I know how to Love God and my fellow man, if my creator doesn't tell me? And when he does, who am I to judge His Law one way or the other.

Great reply Jaime :)

Just a comment. One must understand the following passage in the context of scriptures.

1 Tim. 1:9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,

10 For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;


Consider, God gave commandment (a law for that matter) to Adam who is not a sinner at the time.

By the way, you mentioned "Christ's Sabbath", where can we find that in scriptures?

What do you mean by "Christ's Sabbath"?

Offline Michael2012

  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 3641
  • Manna: 12
Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
« Reply #173 on: Tue Jan 07, 2020 - 13:51:56 »
Hi @Cathlodox; @winsome

I just like to comment regarding what you call "Moral Laws" of God.

Consider the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. When Eve and Adam ate of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, they came to know good and evil. By that, mankind know what is good and what is evil, don't you agree?

Genesis 3:22 And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:


Offline 4WD

  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 10940
  • Manna: 307
  • (T)ogether (E)veryone (A)chieves (M)ore
Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
« Reply #174 on: Wed Jan 08, 2020 - 05:01:20 »
Michael, are you suggesting that Adam and Eve really didn't know that it was wrong to disobey God when He told them to not eat of the fruit of the tree of good and evil?  I think the God's message to us in the narrative of eating the forbidden fruit carries a much deeper meaning that you are giving it.  But perhaps that is for another time.