Author Topic: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.  (Read 7360 times)

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Offline Michael2012

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Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
« Reply #245 on: Mon Jan 13, 2020 - 04:27:59 »
Quote from: Michael
Regarding that passage in Colossians 2, clearly those mentioned in verse 16 which has to do with eating, drinking, of holy days, new moons and even sabbath days are said in verse 17 to be a shadow of things to come, the body of which is of Christ. If a shadow is of the body of Christ, I am sure there is no debate that it cannot be spoken of as something bad or evil.
True, but religious men and religious traditions of men have been bad and evil through out the Bible. They think they are holy and just, but they are not. This is the very purpose of Col. 2. Paul is warning about being spoiled (made rotten) by the philosophy of men pushing traditions of men and rudiments of the world, and not of the Christ.

For instance, the Sabbaths and Commandments of the Bible are of the Christ. The Sunday Sabbath in the religions of the land, is a tradition of men. Paul is telling the true believers to know the difference, and not to let anyone convince them, or judge them for their voluntary humility towards the Holy Christ's Word's over the traditions of men, which will "parish with the using".

If you say that what I've written in my quoted post there is true, then you agree that what is said in verse 16 which has to do with eating, drinking, of holy days, new moons and even sabbath days, being a shadow of Christ, are not bad or evil.

If such things foreshadows Christ and are not bad or evil, but are good, why do you say they refer to traditions of men and rudiments of the world? Can these traditions of men and rudiments of the world you refer to, be said to be a shadow of things to come, the body of which is of Christ?   

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Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
« Reply #245 on: Mon Jan 13, 2020 - 04:27:59 »

Offline Michael2012

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Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
« Reply #246 on: Mon Jan 13, 2020 - 04:30:27 »
Quote from: Michael
If you are striving to enter the narrow gate, that means you know where the narrow gate is. Tell us where is the narrow gate that you strive to enter?
I'll let the Christ answer this for you.

Duet. 30:9 And the LORD thy God will make thee plenteous in every work of thine hand, in the fruit of thy body, and in the fruit of thy cattle, and in the fruit of thy land, for good: for the LORD will again rejoice over thee for good, as he rejoiced over thy fathers:

10 If thou shalt hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to keep his commandments and his statutes which are written in this book of the law, and if thou turn unto the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul.

11 For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not hidden from thee, neither is it far off.

12 It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?

13 Neither is it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?

14 But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it.

15 See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil;

16 In that I command thee this day to love the LORD thy God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commandments and his statutes and his judgments, that thou mayest live and multiply: and the LORD thy God shall bless thee in the land whither thou goest to possess it.

As you can surely see, not many folks will "Strive to enter" this Path. But Jesus walked it. He is the actual Author of this Path, and we are told to "Walk even as He Walked".

We have everything we need, including volumes of examples of folks, both who "strived to enter" and those who created their own Path.

Heb. 12:1 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,

2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

3 For consider him that endured such contradiction of sinners against himself, lest ye be wearied and faint in your minds.

4 Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.

The question "Tell us where is the narrow gate that you strive to enter?" Clearly, what I am asking is the gate, not the path.

And I have to say, be careful in saying "I'll let the Christ answer this for you.", making it appear that what you say is in fact what Christ says.

It seems to me that while you say and claim "I am striving to enter the narrow gate.", you can't even point to us where the narrow gate you refer to is. How can you enter a gate which you don't know?

Offline Michael2012

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Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
« Reply #247 on: Mon Jan 13, 2020 - 04:40:22 »
Quote from: Michael
Quote from: GB
Rom. 2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:

29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.
With regards that scriptures you quoted in one of your post, let me ask you this question:

To whom did God made a covenant with during the time of Moses? Was it with the outward Jews or the inward Jews?
He made the Covenant with the home born, which also included the stranger that chose to sojourn with them.

This Covenant was to promote folks to "circumcised the foreskins of their heart". This Covenant that the Christ made with them, a covenant Abraham didn't have, consisted of Priestly Services designed to do two things, which was to lead them to their Christ.

#1. Administer God's Laws.

#2. Provide sacrificial "works" through a specific Levitical Priesthood for the atonement of sins. This "Covenant" was to be in force until "After those says", or as Paul describes "till the Seed should Come".

After that, Christ Himself will write His Laws on our hearts, no more Levite Priests to take "Moses Seat".

And He also promised "After those days" that He, Himself, will atone for our sins. No more Levite Priests to perform "works of the Law" for the atonement of sins.

All of this designed to create a new Man, and a Jew (God's Chosen People) from within.

Evidently, you evade the question. The question, relative to what Romans 2:28-29 which speaks of an inward Jew and an outward Jew, is "To whom did God made a covenant with during the time of Moses? Was it with the outward Jews or the inward Jews?". Don't you know if it's with the inward Jew or the outward Jew that God made a covenant with during the time of Moses? If you don't, just say so. There is no need to say so much just to avoid the question.

You say it's with the homeborn, including the stranger that chose to sojourn with them. Tell us who are these homeborn and who are the strangers? Can't you tell?   

Offline Michael2012

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Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
« Reply #248 on: Mon Jan 13, 2020 - 04:55:38 »
Quote from: Michael
Are you under the law or not?
According to the context in which Paul used it, I hope I am Spiritually alive, not dead according to the Letter. (The wages of sin is death) If I am Spiritually dead, then I am under the Law.

You hope? Why, do you have doubts whether you are spiritually alive or dead?

And since you are hoping to be spiritually alive, you indirectly are saying that you are hoping to NOT be under the law. At least you correctly hope to be not under the Law. But let me tell you this, that perhaps, it will erase your doubts. Scriptures says that those who are in Christ, the believer that is, are NOT under the Law, but are under grace. 

Quote from: GB
Quote from: Michael
If you are under the law, would you say you will be judged by the law?
If I am still dead, I have already been judged by the Law. But if I am alive because of God's Grace, I can become a new man, and "Strive to enter" another path. One that respects God and Honors God with my body.

1 Cor. 6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? 20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.

In other words, you agree that one who is under the Law is judged by the Law. SO, we agree on that.

You said "If I am still dead, I have already been judged by the Law. But if I am alive because of God's Grace, I can become a new man, and "Strive to enter" another path." I understand and so take that when you say "dead" there in your statement, you refer to being dead in sin. Thus, before you were made alive because of God's grace, you were dead (in sin) first. And one who says they are alive because of God's grace, only means that they were saved from death or being dead. And saved from death as he already is by God's grace, by God's grace also he is made alive and  continue to live. Let me share to you the following scriptures:

John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. 

Now, he who was dead and now was made alive, is a new man. Not because he can of himself become a new man, but that because God had created him anew in righteousness and true holiness ~ he is born again. He is God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that he should walk in them.

Quote from: GB
Quote from: Michael
If you are under the law, would you say you are bound by the law?
If I am dead, which is what it means to be "Under the Law", then I am free from sin. The dead can not praise God. But if I am alive by God's Grace, then I am not my own. I am purchased with HIS Blood. My old self crucified with Him. Now I am a "servant" of the Christ of the Bible, running the race that is set before me, striving against sin, and striving to enter the Narrow Path. I am bound to the one whom I serve, as it is written.

You said "If I am dead, which is what it means to be "Under the Law", then I am free from sin." So if you are alive, what that means to you is that you are "NOT under the Law". Right? And so also, by what you say there, if you are "NOT under the law" then you are NOT free from sin. "NOT free" to me denotes slavery, being bound, confined as in the case of a prisoner. Won't you like to review and reconsider what you are saying there?

I suspect that there is something needed to be clarified in all of that. What do you mean by "dead" in your statement? Are you referring to being dead in sin as that spoken in Ephesians 2:1 or are you referring to being dead to sin as that spoken in Romans 6:2? 

Also, by implication, you are saying that one who serves the law (servant of the Law, so to speak) is bound by the law. I'd like to mention, and so be aware, at this point that the law we speak of here is the law of God which He gave to Israel when He took them out of Egypt. I get the impression by your answers so far, that you are not bound by the law because you said you are now a servant of Christ, so not a servant of the law.

Quote from: GB
Quote from: Michael
If you are under the law, if you keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, would you say you are guilty of all?
I am hopeful for the promises of the Christ in His Word.

1 John 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.

4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.

6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

So again you evade the issue question, that is, "If you are under the law, if you keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, would you say you are guilty of all?". Not one of the scriptures you quoted answers the question GB. The very simple question evidently is too hard for you to answer. It amazes me indeed. Let me help you have courage by sharing this scriptures:

James 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

There you go. The only thing left for you to do is believe and accept that. So when one speaks a lie, he is said to be guilty of breaking all, that is, he is also then guilty of breaking the 4th commandment, don't you agree? Some see that as unjust and unfair. How about you? Do you see it the same way? Now, you know fully well that any one who breaks even a single commandment of God is a sinner. Now, what scriptures say regarding this is:

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

I hope that at this point you now see the wisdom of God in His salvation and His grace in Christ. For scriptures says that there is no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus. Only in Christ are we not only saved, but even, securely saved. For even the believer, the Christians, who are still in their sinful flesh (the body of this death, as Paul speaks of it), do still fall into sin. But this problem had been taken cared of by Jesus Christ Himself, so that scriptures says there is no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus. That is not to suggest that we are free to deliberately sin. Of course not. Paul speaks a lot about this in Romans 6.

Quote from: GB
Quote from: Michael
If you are not under the law, would you say you are free from the law and are not bound by it?
If I was dead because I rejected His Laws, and by His Grace, He paid the penalty for my transgressions, why would I transgress God's Laws again and place Jesus to an open shame? I am not free from His instruction, I am freed from the death transgression of His Laws caused me.

Rom. 6:12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.

13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.

14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid. (That means NO! Michael)

16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

In other words, your answer is NO, that you are not free from the law. If you are not free from the law, then you know what that means, don't you? But concerning the Christian, according to Paul, he had been freed from the law.   

Quote from: GB
Quote from: Michael
If you are not under the law, how is it that you are not under it?
If I am not dead, it is because Jesus shed His Blood for me. But He didn't shed His Blood so I could reject His Laws again. At least according to the Christ of the Bible.

Again you really did not answer the question, but evaded it. It's a bad habit and cheap tactic of yours, I know.

GB, him who is not under the law, is not bound by the law. Now, those who are in Christ had been freed from the law and so not bound by it. They are no longer under the law, but are now under grace. Paul repeatedly said that in Romans 6. And again, that is not to suggest that we can deliberately sin. God forbid!


Offline Michael2012

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Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
« Reply #249 on: Mon Jan 13, 2020 - 05:08:21 »
Quote from: Michael
You said this in one of your post.

James said "whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all."

Do you believe that? I know you'd say you do.

If you believe that, and you admit you are a sinner and have sin no doubt, then if you lie, aren't you then also guilty of all, including the 4th of the 10 commandments?
You are not my judge. You talk in circles in my opinion. You bounce all over the place most the time, in my opinion. You make the claim that I don't answer your questions "Properly" as an excuse to keep moving the bar, going to the next and the next and the next.

I'm sure you are leading to something here, I'm sure I'll find out soon enough. You say the Christ of the Bible isn't the "Restorer of Paths to walk in", yet you won't even show the basic curtsey of telling me, who in your religion is?

You just move to the next, to the next to the next. I don't know why I keep falling for your games here.

I am asking you asking a question , not judging you GB. You can't face the question as is evident in all that you have written there. So sorry for you.

The scriptures found in James 2:10 (For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.) shouts out this truth to you.   

Yes, I am leading to something there. That is, to tell the truth written in James 2:10 to you. That perhaps God may grant you repentance with regards your false belief on this. 

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Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
« Reply #249 on: Mon Jan 13, 2020 - 05:08:21 »



Offline GB

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Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
« Reply #250 on: Mon Jan 13, 2020 - 09:08:49 »
Quote
author=RB link=topic=74624.msg1055154574#msg1055154574 date=1578856011]
Not sure why I'm even posting to you and sinning against my conscience and the Lord, for it is nothing more than casting pearls before a swine. But since you are again lying and showing your deceitful spirit~it's hard to allow you to deceive others (if that is possible by your irrational and vain repetitious posts) and sit quietly without speaking out~ YET, knowing that it will go nowhere!  

So, prove that you are not lying by posting my several statements that you said I have said.

Sure Red.

Quote
He is the Lord of the Sabbath, and He gave us a new Lord’s Day~Sunday (Matthew 12:8).


I posted this several times along with the Scripture you claim makes your case.

Matt. 12:5 Or have ye not read in the law, how that on the sabbath days the priests in the temple profane the sabbath, and are blameless?

6 But I say unto you, That in this place is one greater than the temple.

7 But if ye had known what this meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice, ye would not have condemned the guiltless.

8 For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day.

Not only was Jesus talking about His Own Sabbath, created by HIM for man, there is not even a hint that He gave us a New Lord's Day.


So you are lying by saying you never preach that Jesus changed the Lord's day. And you are lying by deceiving folks that this verse is one where Jesus gives us a "new" Lord's Day.

You preach:
Quote
The Sabbaths as the Jews knew it and practice has been changed!

What you are cleverly and subtly leaving out is who changed it. Who gave us a "New Lord's Day"? You preach Jesus did, and you use Matt. 12 as your support. But the truth is religious man changed God's Sabbath, not God. And the Catholic gave us the New Lord's day, not Jesus.

There is not one place in the Bible where the Christ teaches that HIS Sabbath has changed, nor is there even one verse, Prophesy, implication, or even suggestion that Jesus Gave His People a New Lord's Day.

You are the one telling lies, not me.

Jesus said God's Sabbath was made for man. Yet you preach that Paul calls these Feasts that Jesus said were made for man "Beggarly Elements". Your quote. "Paul calls the Commandments of God "Beggarly Elements" in Gal. 4.".

I have posted this quote of yours as well, and asked you over and over how you could make such a claim given what the Scriptures actually say.

Gal. 4:8 Howbeit then, when ye knew not God, ye did service unto them which by nature are no gods.

9 But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?

How is it these men where following God's Commandments before they even knew Him?  The Feasts of the Christ are different than Pagan high days. Your preaching that Paul says in one breath, "Let us therefore keep the Feast", and in another "His Feasts are beggarly Elements" is just one of many of the loony winds of doctrine you peddle. And is another example of the hypocrisy of "many" who come in Christ's Name.

I am not your enemy, or the devil, or a heretic  because I show you these things. Although you are following perfectly the reaction of the Pharisees when God's Word corrected them.

I know Paul never called God's Commandments "Beggarly Elements" in Gal. 4, and I know Jesus didn't give the world a "New Lord's Day, Sunday, in Matt. 12.

So it is my duty to expose these things so others are not infected with the leaven your are promoting. I know you will not be corrected. Not by me, Moses, Paul, or God Almighty. I have stopped replying to your posts for your sake long ago. I do it now so that others may see the blatant difference between the religion you preach, and the Gospel of God that Paul obeyed from the heart.

Quote
I'm coming back with a verse by verse commentary on Isaiah's words, something that I have never seen you even attempted to do, and the reason why is that you have no spiritual light in you, pure and simple.

1 Cor. 5:6 Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump?

7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:

8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.

You need to get right with Gal. 4 and Matt. 12 because go any further.


Offline GB

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Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
« Reply #251 on: Mon Jan 13, 2020 - 10:22:53 »
@Amo, @GB

Moses is normally credited with composing the first 5 books of the Bible, but for all of Genesis he was not alive.

Please tell me regarding the stories in Genesis - creation/fall, Tower of Babel/ Noah etc - did:
a) Moses write down what had been passed down through the generations from Adam and Eve?
or 
b) Make it all up?

Gen. 6:5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

There is no written account of what God's Commandments, His Statutes, or His Laws were until Exodus. Yet the Holy Scriptures clearly say they existed. Your preaching that they didn't exist because God waited until Exodus to write them down is a religious doctrine made up by you.

The Commandment to Love thy neighbor as thyself was first written down in Lev. 19. So you would preach that such a commandment didn't exist until after the Exodus. Yet the Scriptures say;

1 John 3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

11 For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another.

12 Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous.

So your preaching that this Commandment didn't exist until Leviticus, because God didn't write it down, is a doctrine made up by you.

Gen. 18:19 For I know him, that he will command his children and his household after him, and they shall keep the way of the LORD, to do justice and judgment; that the LORD may bring upon Abraham that which he hath spoken of him.

Your preaching that God didn't have a "way", or that His Judgment didn't exist, or that God's Justice didn't exist until God had it wrote down in Exodus is made up by you.

Gen. 7:1 And the LORD said unto Noah, Come thou and all thy house into the ark; for thee have I seen righteous before me in this generation.

2 Of every clean beast thou shalt take to thee by sevens, the male and his female: and of beasts that are not clean by two, the male and his female.

There is not one mention of the creation of clean animals and unclean animals until Noah, and there was no written definition of the distinction until Leviticus. By your religious logic, the distinction between the two didn't exist until God had it written down. Yet not only did God create the distinction, but Noah knew what the difference was even though God didn't have it written down until years later.

Gen. 22:8 And Abraham said, My son, God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering: so they went both of them together.

These is not one place where God shared this Biblical truth in writing until centuries after Abraham offered his son. And yet Abraham knew of the Lamb God would provide.

All of these examples don't even compare to the Lord's Sabbath. Not only did God Create a 7 day week, but He blessed the 7th day and Sanctified it at creation. And when He had this Commandment written down, He actually references the creation of the 7th day and reminded folks that He Blessed it and Sanctified it. He didn't "Bless and Sanctify" it again in Exodus. You made that part up.

So I know God didn't write down that we are to Love Him with all our heart, or hate our brother without a cause, or tell us about the Lamb of God until Exodus, but there is evidence all over Genesis that His Laws, Commandments and Statutes existed. And He tells us of the sanctification of the 7th day at creation.

So I don't believe, because of all this evidence, that Abraham had God Commandments, Statutes and Laws, and that God shared with him about the Lamb of God, but not the 7th day He sanctified.

And I don't believe that Noah knew about God's Creation of clean and unclean animals, and his son's knew the commandment not to look at the nakedness of their father, but God didn't share that He sanctified and Blessed the 7th day at creation.

Jesus said we are live by "Every Word" of God. You are rejecting a lot of scripture here to support your religious doctrine that God's Blessing and sanctification of the 7th day only lasted 24 hours. Or that God's Commandments, Statutes, or Laws didn't exist because God hadn't written them down yet. And you have nothing from the Bible to support your claim here.

It's made up.






Offline GB

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Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
« Reply #252 on: Mon Jan 13, 2020 - 11:49:21 »
If you don't know what God's Laws are, you shouldn't be preaching as if you do.


Well, I thought I can see some kindness. Well....

I requested this for the purpose stated in my post, not because I don't know what God's laws are. But what I don't know is what you consider the law of God. If you want yourself to be understood, you owe anyone here, when asked, to tell them what they ask of you that would clarify what you mean to say. For example you speak of Sabbath. If one ask you for the definition of Sabbath or what Sabbath means to you for clarification so that he would understand what you are saying by it, should you not tell them, or should you rather ridicule their asking? You speak of God's law. If one ask you what you consider to be the law of God that He gave for all men to keep, for clarification, so the board can consider and examine them, should you not tell them, or should you rather ridicule their asking? Well that says a lot about you ....

I don't believe a man should listen to another man we don't even know for instruction in righteousness as this knowledge is to come from the Holy Scriptures, at least according to Jesus and Paul. Therefore, I post the Word's of the Sabbath giver, and let Him define His Laws and Sabbaths.

In this way, if you have a problem with the Law, your problem is with the Law giver and not with the messenger.







Offline winsome

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Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
« Reply #253 on: Mon Jan 13, 2020 - 13:11:42 »

It's made up.
OK,
I wonder why Moses didn't think to make up that God commanded men to keep a 7th day sabbath, or make up that men did keep a 7th day sabbath. 
Perhaps he knew the SDAs would make it up 3,000 years later!!.

Offline GB

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Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
« Reply #254 on: Mon Jan 13, 2020 - 13:39:10 »
 author=beam link=topic=74624.msg1055154580#msg1055154580 date=1578886959]
Quote
.
Very admiral of you. 
So, because you have studied for 25 years I am to take your word for telling me I am wrong for everything???  Come on brother/sister, telling me I am following the teachings of men, but then not explaining how I have done this is, at best,  very shallow.
The Jews to whom the 613 laws of the Sinai covenant was given to are the ones that have counted them and claim there were 613.  You were quick to tell me I am promoting a lie yet you didn't correct me with the truth.  I suppose you took the time to count all of them, so why not instead of intimidation just tell me what is  the truth.

I'm not sure of the wisdom in seeking out a random Jewish web site to learn the truth about God's Laws. And regardless of your dancing around, it is an absolute falsehood to preach to others that God Commanded Israel to keep 613 laws. It doesn't matter how many times to teach others, it was a lie before you started preaching it, it is a lie now, and it will still be a lie long after both you and I are gone.

I tell you this as a warning, as a help, as a brother. I would be glad to go to the list and show you the fallacy of this religious doctrine if your want. I thought you should know if you didn't.

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You really need to know I am not buying anything you have written.  Where is the meat!!!  How about some facts instead of just blowing in the wind?

I have posted scriptures which lead me to doctrines I espouse and you ignore them as if I didn't even post them. You just shake your head. I guess to get your attention I must quote the teaching of some random Jewish web site.

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Hogwash!  I have gone over each one trying to find one I needed to post.  www.jewfaq.org
The real sad thein is your coming on here and not adding anything to the debate except hot air.
Look friend I am near 85 years old and I am not about to waste my time adding up the defunct laws of the old covenant.  If you are not willing to give us the "real" facts then so be it.  It is not a matter of salvation anyway.  In fact, I think it was petty of you to bring it up in the first place, especially leaving us without what you say you have learned.

 At any rate, God did not command Israel to obey 613 laws, just as God didn't command that we can't take a walk on His Holy Sabbath and eat an apple. Both are Religious doctrines and traditions of man that we are warned about over and over.

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Jesus didn't come on the scene until His Birth.  It was the Word.   The Word was made flesh.

"Before Abraham was "I Am". Yes, He didn't come in the Flesh until His birth.


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Ah ha! pretty sneaky.  Why did you leave out the best part.  You think others do not know scripture?  32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord: Now why would you do a thing like that?

What is sneaky is how you deflect from discussing the scriptures I posted. In these scriptures the Christ, before becoming a man in the person of Jesus, tells us exactly what HIS NEW Covenant is. There is nothing even remotely similar to the New Covenant you preach. You obviously don't know what the old covenant is, and you refuse to accept what the Christ Himself says New Covenant is.
 
 
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Ha! I read your sneaky version.  Again, why would you want to such a thing?
Didn't you write that you have been studying scripture for 25 years and you have yet to realize that christians are under the new and better covenant?
Wrong, wrong and more wrong.  The Sabbath was given on tablets of stone at Mt. Sinai.  Paul, the ambassador of Jesus wrote in 2Cor 3:6-11 KJV that the 10 were done away.  No, not Mose face as you so like to think.  If you have any grasp of the English language you know when you read it that it was the 10 commandments.

In your religion, and the Catholic religion this is true, but not the Bible. God's Commandments are written on the hearts of His People. Jesus said "Think not that I come to destroy the Law and Prophets". Yet, that is the very foundation of your religion.

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I will say one thing, you sure can twist scripture to fit your preconceived purpose.That is what you would like for it to say.  As I said above one must have a grasp of the English language to properly understand that it was the 10 he was referring.  Verse 7 says: 7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious.  It was not Mose face that was glorious.   Verse 8 says:8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious? 
  More glorious that Mose head?  You have to be kidding comparing Moses head with the Holy Spirit.  It doesn't fit now does it?  Verse 9 we read:  9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.  Where does Moses head fit into that equation?  Verse 10 says: 10 For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth.

The ministration of death was the Levitical Priesthood given to Israel by Moses.  In this Priesthood, there was a death required for the atonement of sins. Abraham had God's Laws, but this "covenant" wasn't ADDED until 430 years after him. This is Moses Seat that Jesus spoke of. The Duty of the Levite Priest was to give the people God's Laws, and provide for the atonement of sins through sacrificial "Works of the Law".

The New Covenant I showed you that the Christ promised, reveals that "after those days" Jesus Himself will administer God's Laws to the people, and Jesus Himself, will provide for the atonement of sins. There is no mention of God erasing, amending or destroying His 10 Commandments, only the manner in which they are administered, and the manner in which transgressions of them are atoned for.

Jesus became our High Priest as still performing the Spiritual Priesthood duties in heaven now. "Many" who come in Christ's Name, use this one verse to wipe out the Law and Prophets, and God's Commandments contained therein. Paul did not such thing.


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All Moses head did was to reflect the glory of the 10 commandments.  And then comes the clincher: 11   "Is" in the sentence present tense, "was" in the sentence is past tense.   Paul is telling us that the 10 commandments as Israel's guid has been replaced with the Holy Spirit as our guide.  25 years of study ahd you still do not have it all right.Did someone else help you to be hoodwinked or did you do it by yourself?

No, He is furthering the Christ's New Covenant. No longer are folks required to go to Moses Seat to hear about God, we can all go straight to His Word and hear His Word without the filter of religious men.. His Laws, which are good, just and spiritual, are here to guide us, that is why Jesus promised to write them on our hearts, not destroy them.

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Yes it WAS.  Jesus was born a man under the laws of the Sinai covenant.  Of course He honored those laws he was under.  A better covenant was on the horizon.

Jesus did not follow worthless Jewish Traditions. And He forgave sins while He was a man, without ever sprinkling a single drop of animal blood. He was the High Priest before they killed Him, the Sacrificial "works of the Law" were already growing old and ready to become obsolete. Jesus replaced the Levite with Himself, and took over the Priesthood duties. He did not remove the definition of sin. 

Religious men did that as Prophesied.

Offline GB

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Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
« Reply #255 on: Mon Jan 13, 2020 - 13:58:49 »
True, but religious men and religious traditions of men have been bad and evil through out the Bible. They think they are holy and just, but they are not. This is the very purpose of Col. 2. Paul is warning about being spoiled (made rotten) by the philosophy of men pushing traditions of men and rudiments of the world, and not of the Christ.

For instance, the Sabbaths and Commandments of the Bible are of the Christ. The Sunday Sabbath in the religions of the land, is a tradition of men. Paul is telling the true believers to know the difference, and not to let anyone convince them, or judge them for their voluntary humility towards the Holy Christ's Word's over the traditions of men, which will "parish with the using".


If you say that what I've written in my quoted post there is true, then you agree that what is said in verse 16 which has to do with eating, drinking, of holy days, new moons and even sabbath days, being a shadow of Christ, are not bad or evil.

If such things foreshadows Christ and are not bad or evil, but are good, why do you say they refer to traditions of men and rudiments of the world? Can these traditions of men and rudiments of the world you refer to, be said to be a shadow of things to come, the body of which is of Christ?

You are confused.

Paul is speaking of two things in Col. 2.

One is a warning about religious men and their Philosophy and traditions of men we are to beware of.

The other is the Good, Just and Spiritual Commandments of God which include His Holy Feasts and Sabbaths and creation laws such as clean and unclean animals.

 On the religious doctrines and traditions of men, Paul is rebuking them. But in the observances of God's Commandments, he is telling them to "Let no man judge them" in the voluntary humility in submitting to these ways of the Christ.

Traditions of men are shadows of nothing and are evil, according to God, especially if following them leads to transgression of God Commandments (Sin), the Christ's Feasts are shadows of His Salvation plan which begins with Passover.

The Jews, who were teaching for doctrines the commandments of men, placed restrictions and burdens on the people, through their own laws, that were against them, contrary to them.

21 (Touch not; taste not; handle not;

Jesus addressed some of these in the Scriptures. Like making it a sin against God to eat a piece of bread without first having washed the hands a certain way, or they made it a sin to take a walk in fellowship on His Holy Sabbath and pick an apple or ear of corn to eat.

These are traditions of men. While Passover and Feast of Unleavened bread, and HIS Sabbaths and Feasts are of the God of the Bible.


Offline Michael2012

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Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
« Reply #256 on: Mon Jan 13, 2020 - 14:09:53 »
A perfect example of the false gospel according to those who twist the words of Paul unto the same. In this false gospel, God's law brings about death, not sin. Sin is and would be just fine, if it weren't for God's law. Which is of course the whole point of God's law. Sin is not just fine, it produces death, thus the law of God, to make sin exceedingly sinful. The spiritual, just, holy, good, and pure law of God is not the cause of death. It is the standard which points out the real cause of death, which is sin.

Rom 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet. 8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead. 9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. 10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death. 11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me. 12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good. 13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful. 14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

This is a perfect example of you arguing against a false gospel preaching straw man that you create. For I never said that sin is just fine.

You said "The spiritual, just, holy, good, and pure law of God is not the cause of death. It is the standard which points out the real cause of death, which is sin." Paul, in 2 Cor. 3 speaks of "the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones". What do you suppose Paul is referring to with that, if not the written law? Also Paul said "the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life." What do you suppose Paul refers to by "the letter", if not the written law?

When I said "So we can see by that, the law brings about wrath, condemnation, and death.", it is a mistake to understand it as me saying that the law is the cause of death. What I meant is that the law is that which condemns unto death. So Paul refers to it as being of the ministration of condemnation and ministration of death. And while sin is the cause of death or that one becomes dead because of sin, it is the law that condemns the sinner unto death. 

Quote from: Amo
The true gospel identifies sin as the killer, the false gospel identifies God's law as the killer. The true gospel calls for the abandonment of sin, the false gospel calls for the abandonment of God's law which even Paul says was ordained to life. It convicts of sin and leads the sinner to Jesus Christ who alone can save their lives, it is thereby ordained to life. Sin is the harbinger of death, not the law. The law was given to more emphatically point this truth out. To convict the sinner of guilt, lead them to their only savior from this guilt, and lift up the standard which all the saved should seek to uphold. The false gospel seeks instead to remove the standard which convicts of sin, points to Christ alone for salvation from sin, and maintains said standard as apart form sin. Which standard was perfectly fulfilled in the life and death of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

The gospel is not about identifying sin to be this or that, nor about identifying God's law. The gospel is all about Jesus Christ, period.

You said "The true gospel calls for the abandonment of sin, the false gospel calls for the abandonment of God's law which even Paul says was ordained to life." Of course the scriptures would not teach and does not teach the abandonment of God's laws. But it surely does teach that the covenant of God with Israel that He made at the time of Moses (which includes the covenantal commandments, statutes, ordinances, judgments), was done away with and replaced by a new covenant whose mediator is Jesus Christ. Those who are in Christ are under covenant with God, though not under the former (old) covenant, but under a new covenant. Concerning this new covenant, scriptures say that it is not according to the covenant that God made with Israel in the day when God took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt. It is a better covenant, established upon better promises, of a more excellent and glorious ministry. And indeed it is, for the new covenant is a ministration of the spirit, of righteousness and life, in contrast to the old covenant which Paul had refers to as  ministration of condemnation and death. Paul said the spirit gives life while the letter killeth.

While it is true that the law (commandments) was ordained to life, don't you know what Paul tells us concerning this? Paul said that he found the law (commandment) to be unto death. Do you want know how was that? Read Romans 7.

Quote from: Amo
Deu 4:1  Now therefore hearken, O Israel, unto the statutes and unto the judgments, which I teach you, for to do them, that ye may live, and go in and possess the land which the LORD God of your fathers giveth you. 2 Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you. 3 Your eyes have seen what the LORD did because of Baalpeor: for all the men that followed Baalpeor, the LORD thy God hath destroyed them from among you. 4 But ye that did cleave unto the LORD your God are alive every one of you this day. 5 Behold, I have taught you statutes and judgments, even as the LORD my God commanded me, that ye should do so in the land whither ye go to possess it. 6 Keep therefore and do them; for this is your wisdom and your understanding in the sight of the nations, which shall hear all these statutes, and say, Surely this great nation is a wise and understanding people. 7 For what nation is there so great, who hath God so nigh unto them, as the LORD our God is in all things that we call upon him for? 8 And what nation is there so great, that hath statutes and judgments so righteous as all this law, which I set before you this day? 9 Only take heed to thyself, and keep thy soul diligently, lest thou forget the things which thine eyes have seen, and lest they depart from thy heart all the days of thy life: but teach them thy sons, and thy sons' sons; 10 Specially the day that thou stoodest before the LORD thy God in Horeb, when the LORD said unto me, Gather me the people together, and I will make them hear my words, that they may learn to fear me all the days that they shall live upon the earth, and that they may teach their children. 11 And ye came near and stood under the mountain; and the mountain burned with fire unto the midst of heaven, with darkness, clouds, and thick darkness. 12 And the LORD spake unto you out of the midst of the fire: ye heard the voice of the words, but saw no similitude; only ye heard a voice. 13 And he declared unto you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform, even ten commandments; and he wrote them upon two tables of stone. 14 And the LORD commanded me at that time to teach you statutes and judgments, that ye might do them in the land whither ye go over to possess it.

Moses told Israel that God's commandments were unto life, to be a witness to the surrounding nations of God's righteousness, justice, and mercy. According to todays false gospel though, Paul corrected this apparent error on the part of Moses, and rightly called God's covenant and law the covenant or laws of death. One obscure statement from Paul nullifies all other biblical testimony to the contrary. So be it.

And who is saying, that Paul called God's covenant and law the covenant or laws of death? Again another straw man creation Amo? 

Perhaps you find Paul's statement as obscure, even while it isn't. What is obscure in the following? What can't you understand by those in bold fonts?

2 Cor. 3:6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:


Quote from: Amo
Deu 5:28 And the LORD heard the voice of your words, when ye spake unto me; and the LORD said unto me, I have heard the voice of the words of this people, which they have spoken unto thee: they have well said all that they have spoken. 29 O that there were such an heart in them, that they would fear me, and keep all my commandments always, that it might be well with them, and with their children for ever! 30 Go say to them, Get you into your tents again. 31 But as for thee, stand thou here by me, and I will speak unto thee all the commandments, and the statutes, and the judgments, which thou shalt teach them, that they may do them in the land which I give them to possess it. 32 Ye shall observe to do therefore as the LORD your God hath commanded you: ye shall not turn aside to the right hand or to the left. 33 Ye shall walk in all the ways which the LORD your God hath commanded you, that ye may live, and that it may be well with you, and that ye may prolong your days in the land which ye shall possess.

It just doesn't sound like a covenant of death to me.

Of course it's not a covenant of death. Who says it is a covenant of death?

Quote from: Amo
Deu 30:1 And it shall come to pass, when all these things are come upon thee, the blessing and the curse, which I have set before thee, and thou shalt call them to mind among all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath driven thee, 2 And shalt return unto the LORD thy God, and shalt obey his voice according to all that I command thee this day, thou and thy children, with all thine heart, and with all thy soul; 3 That then the LORD thy God will turn thy captivity, and have compassion upon thee, and will return and gather thee from all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath scattered thee. 4 If any of thine be driven out unto the outmost parts of heaven, from thence will the LORD thy God gather thee, and from thence will he fetch thee: 5 And the LORD thy God will bring thee into the land which thy fathers possessed, and thou shalt possess it; and he will do thee good, and multiply thee above thy fathers. 6 And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live. 7 And the LORD thy God will put all these curses upon thine enemies, and on them that hate thee, which persecuted thee. 8 And thou shalt return and obey the voice of the LORD, and do all his commandments which I command thee this day. 9 And the LORD thy God will make thee plenteous in every work of thine hand, in the fruit of thy body, and in the fruit of thy cattle, and in the fruit of thy land, for good: for the LORD will again rejoice over thee for good, as he rejoiced over thy fathers: 10 If thou shalt hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to keep his commandments and his statutes which are written in this book of the law, and if thou turn unto the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul. 11 For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not hidden from thee, neither is it far off. 12 It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it? 13 Neither is it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it? 14 But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it. 15 See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil; 16 In that I command thee this day to love the LORD thy God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commandments and his statutes and his judgments, that thou mayest live and multiply: and the LORD thy God shall bless thee in the land whither thou goest to possess it. 17 But if thine heart turn away, so that thou wilt not hear, but shalt be drawn away, and worship other gods, and serve them; 18 I denounce unto you this day, that ye shall surely perish, and that ye shall not prolong your days upon the land, whither thou passest over Jordan to go to possess it. 19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live: 20 That thou mayest love the LORD thy God, and that thou mayest obey his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto him: for he is thy life, and the length of thy days: that thou mayest dwell in the land which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.

So strange, all this talk by God about obeying His laws and statutes and the better and abundant life that He will give to those who do such. How have "Christians" of today turned such into a covenant of death? Why is that which even Paul said was ordained unto life, turned into a covenant of death by so many "Christians" today? Are they not wrongly dividing the word of God?

Again, who is saying that the old covenant is a covenant of death? Your created straw man?

Quote from: Amo
Eze 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die. 5 But if a man be just, and do that which is lawful and right, 6 And hath not eaten upon the mountains, neither hath lifted up his eyes to the idols of the house of Israel, neither hath defiled his neighbour's wife, neither hath come near to a menstruous woman, 7 And hath not oppressed any, but hath restored to the debtor his pledge, hath spoiled none by violence, hath given his bread to the hungry, and hath covered the naked with a garment; 8 He that hath not given forth upon usury, neither hath taken any increase, that hath withdrawn his hand from iniquity, hath executed true judgment between man and man, 9 Hath walked in my statutes, and hath kept my judgments, to deal truly; he is just, he shall surely live, saith the Lord GOD.

Why does God's word keep promising life to those who would obey His laws which "Christians" today call the covenant or ministry of death?

As is found in the scriptures you quoted, it is said "I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing". Now, concerning life and blessing, they are to keep ALL of God's commandments always and continue in it. And concerning death and curse, if they fail to do that. Evidently, as the inspired writer of Hebrews pointed out, there is a problem with the old covenant that there is need for a new. Not with God nor with God's law, but with them. They fail and always fail to continue in the covenant. So, we find Paul saying that the law/commandment, which was ordained to life, "I found to be unto death". For to fail in the covenant means death and curse.

Also, consider what we can learn from Paul, that there isn't a law given which could have given life, else righteousness should have been by the law. 

Quote from: Amo
Eze 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him. 21 But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die. 22 All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live. 23 Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord GOD: and not that he should return from his ways, and live? 24 But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die. 25 Yet ye say, The way of the Lord is not equal. Hear now, O house of Israel; Is not my way equal? are not your ways unequal? 26 When a righteous man turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die. 27 Again, when the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive. 28 Because he considereth, and turneth away from all his transgressions that he hath committed, he shall surely live, he shall not die. 29 Yet saith the house of Israel, The way of the Lord is not equal. O house of Israel, are not my ways equal? are not your ways unequal? 30 Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, saith the Lord GOD. Repent, and turn yourselves from all your transgressions; so iniquity shall not be your ruin. 31 Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel? 32 For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye.

Sin causes death, not God's law. God's law was and is ordained unto life. Its purpose is to lead the sinner to Christ and uplift the standard which all in Christ should seek to uphold within their lives, as their Lord and Savior Jesus Christ did on their behalf as one of us. That which many "Christians" of today proclaim to be the covenant or ministry of death according to their misapplication of the words of Paul, scripture testifies to be unto life many times over. They preach a gospel of abolishing the law which was ordained unto life, instead of abolishing sin which produces death.


I have already addressed this in the other segments above so I will not repeat myself here.

I just like to say this here, I have pointed out in the segment immediately above, that they fail and always fail to continue in the covenant. Do you want to know why? Read Romans 7.

Quote from: Amo
Jas 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. 15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

Sin brings forth death, not God's law. The law was added that sin might become exceeding sinful, to the effect that God's own would turn away from such unto the Holy and Blameless Lamb of God who died for their sins, Jesus Christ. Our sins caused His death, not the law of God. Turn from the former, and embrace the latter as the new standard of your life as lived out and exemplified in the life and death of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. Praise His Holy name.

I agree that one of the reasons why the law was added, is so that sin, might appear sin and by the law/commandment, might become exceedingly sinful. This is so that they would see and recognize sin, and have knowledge of sin, and come to realize that they are sinful and how sinful they are, so that they might be brought to repentance. And with that, the law serves as their schoolmaster to bring them unto Christ, that they might be justified by faith.

Offline GB

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Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
« Reply #257 on: Mon Jan 13, 2020 - 14:16:26 »


The question "Tell us where is the narrow gate that you strive to enter?" Clearly, what I am asking is the gate, not the path.

And I have to say, be careful in saying "I'll let the Christ answer this for you.", making it appear that what you say is in fact what Christ says.

It seems to me that while you say and claim "I am striving to enter the narrow gate.", you can't even point to us where the narrow gate you refer to is. How can you enter a gate which you don't know?

I posted HIS Word's. He is the gate.

Duet. 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

20 That thou mayest love the LORD thy God, and that thou mayest obey his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto him: for he is thy life, and the length of thy days: that thou mayest dwell in the land which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.

Matt. 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:

25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.

26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:

27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.

So as the scriptures teach; "Examine yourself"

1 Cor. 11:27 Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.

28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup.

29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.

30 For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.

31 For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged.

And whose judgment shall we use? Whose Word's do we listen to? Shall we follow the "many" in the religions of the world, or should we follow the examples set forth in His Word? Shall we look to the Pope, or Oral Roberts? Or shall we look to Jesus the Author of our faith?

John 6:62 What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?

63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.









Offline RB

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Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
« Reply #258 on: Mon Jan 13, 2020 - 14:44:37 »
Sure Red.


I posted this several times along with the Scripture you claim makes your case.

Matt. 12:5 Or have ye not read in the law, how that on the sabbath days the priests in the temple profane the sabbath, and are blameless?

6 But I say unto you, That in this place is one greater than the temple.

7 But if ye had known what this meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice, ye would not have condemned the guiltless.

8 For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day.

Not only was Jesus talking about His Own Sabbath, created by HIM for man, there is not even a hint that He gave us a New Lord's Day.


So you are lying by saying you never preach that Jesus changed the Lord's day. And you are lying by deceiving folks that this verse is one where Jesus gives us a "new" Lord's Day
GB, listen very carefully, since you have a serious reading comprehension or writing, not sure~here is WHY I said I never said what YOU said that I said.
Quote from: : GB Reply #209 on: Yesterday at 10:07:22
While it is true there is nowhere in the Bible where the Holy Sabbath of the Lord, was changed from the 7th to the 1st day, as you preach.
Reading this it would come across to others that I believe that nowhere in the bible the Jewish Sabbath was not trumped by the Lord's day. Either your reading comprehension is elementary level, or, your writing is also on an elementary level, or at least not much above either. Maybe here you can make it much clearer as to what you meant by your statement in the quote box. Maybe you should have left these words off in your statement...again:
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While it is true there is nowhere in the Bible where the Holy Sabbath of the Lord[/color][/b], was changed from the 7th to the 1st day, as you preach.
Do you see why I said what I said? It is because of your inability to make yourself plain, or, you are being deceitful in your writing~I'll give you credit for just being inexperienced in debating.

Now, I DO BELIEVE that the Lord's day which is the FIRST day of the week TRUMPS the Jewish Sabbath day. Question for you: What did the apostle John mean when he said that he was in the Spirit ON THE LORD'S DAY?
« Last Edit: Mon Jan 13, 2020 - 14:55:34 by RB »

Offline RB

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Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
« Reply #259 on: Mon Jan 13, 2020 - 15:07:29 »
"Before Abraham was "I Am". Yes, He didn't come in the Flesh until His birth.
Immanuel was NOT conceived, Jesus the Son of God was. Come here and debate me on this subject: http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/seventh-day-adventist-forum-(sda)/michael-the-archangel-one-who-is-god/ God was NOT BORN~Mary did NOT give birth to God, but God's Son.

Offline Michael2012

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Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
« Reply #260 on: Mon Jan 13, 2020 - 22:09:06 »
Quote from: Michael
Well, I thought I can see some kindness. Well....

I requested this for the purpose stated in my post, not because I don't know what God's laws are. But what I don't know is what you consider the law of God. If you want yourself to be understood, you owe anyone here, when asked, to tell them what they ask of you that would clarify what you mean to say. For example you speak of Sabbath. If one ask you for the definition of Sabbath or what Sabbath means to you for clarification so that he would understand what you are saying by it, should you not tell them, or should you rather ridicule their asking? You speak of God's law. If one ask you what you consider to be the law of God that He gave for all men to keep, for clarification, so the board can consider and examine them, should you not tell them, or should you rather ridicule their asking? Well that says a lot about you ....
I don't believe a man should listen to another man we don't even know for instruction in righteousness as this knowledge is to come from the Holy Scriptures, at least according to Jesus and Paul. Therefore, I post the Word's of the Sabbath giver, and let Him define His Laws and Sabbaths.

In this way, if you have a problem with the Law, your problem is with the Law giver and not with the messenger.

Nobody is saying that a man should listen to another man for instruction in righteousness.

You speak of Sabbath and of God's law. I merely wanted to know what in scriptures you consider as speaking of God's law which you say that He gave for all men to keep, for clarification. So I am not asking for your opinion, but exactly for scriptures. So, if even that you can't or don't want to do, the reason is obvious.

The problem is with you and never not with God. As others also had commented, you seem to have some reading and comprehension issues.

Offline Michael2012

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Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
« Reply #261 on: Mon Jan 13, 2020 - 22:16:56 »
Quote from: Michael
The question "Tell us where is the narrow gate that you strive to enter?" Clearly, what I am asking is the gate, not the path.

And I have to say, be careful in saying "I'll let the Christ answer this for you.", making it appear that what you say is in fact what Christ says.

It seems to me that while you say and claim "I am striving to enter the narrow gate.", you can't even point to us where the narrow gate you refer to is. How can you enter a gate which you don't know?
I posted HIS Word's. He is the gate.

See, you are able to read and comprehend, and give a proper answer. Thank you. I hope you keep that up.

So, yes Jesus Christ is the gate. And who ever enters that gate is said to be in Christ, right? Now, why do you say you strive to enter the gate, that is, Jesus Christ? Haven't you entered yet and are not yet in Christ? By the way, do you know how to enter the gate?

« Last Edit: Mon Jan 13, 2020 - 22:19:30 by Michael2012 »

Offline 4WD

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Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
« Reply #262 on: Tue Jan 14, 2020 - 05:14:16 »
By the way, do you know how to enter the gate?
Do you?

Offline GB

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Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
« Reply #263 on: Tue Jan 14, 2020 - 07:42:12 »
GB, listen very carefully, since you have a serious reading comprehension or writing, not sure~here is WHY I said I never said what YOU said that I said.Reading this it would come across to others that I believe that nowhere in the bible the Jewish Sabbath was not trumped by the Lord's day.

 Either your reading comprehension is elementary level, or, your writing is also on an elementary level, or at least not much above either. Maybe here you can make it much clearer as to what you meant by your statement in the quote box. Maybe you should have left these words off in your statement...again:Do you see why I said what I said? It is because of your inability to make yourself plain, or, you are being deceitful in your writing~I'll give you credit for just being inexperienced in debating.

Now, I DO BELIEVE that the Lord's day which is the FIRST day of the week TRUMPS the Jewish Sabbath day. Question for you: What did the apostle John mean when he said that he was in the Spirit ON THE LORD'S DAY?

LOL, I see you are deflecting from your preaching that Jesus gave us a "New Lord's Day" in Matt. 12. Of course you did, you got caught telling another Windy. You must save face.

Below are just 3 of your quotes, if I look I know I could find many others. I will if you want, we both know your religion regarding God's Sabbath,. You make it pretty clear that you are preaching Jesus Changed the reverence and Holiness He, as the Creator Christ of the Bible, attributed to the 7th day of the week, and moved it to the first day of the week.


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He is the Lord of the Sabbath, and He gave us a new Lord’s Day~Sunday (Matthew 12:8).

The Sabbaths as the Jews knew it and practice has been changed!

I DO BELIEVE that the Lord's day which is the FIRST day of the week TRUMPS the Jewish Sabbath day.

Now I also know, by the example the Christ had written for me in His Word, that you will say I have a devil, or am a heretic, or a dog for exposing what you preach.

The Christ, as the Word of God, was not a Jew, His Sabbaths are not Jewish Sabbaths.

Lev. 23:2 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, Concerning the feasts of the LORD, which ye shall proclaim to be holy convocations, even these are my feasts.

3 Six days shall work be done: but the seventh day is the sabbath of rest, an holy convocation; ye shall do no work therein: it is the sabbath of the LORD in all your dwellings. 4 These are the feasts of the LORD, even holy convocations, which ye shall proclaim in their seasons.

I know you believe the Catholic High Days, created by the Priests of Constantine, trump the Christ's Feasts. I know you preach the Christ's Sabbath changed and I know you preach Jesus replaced it, or rendered is subject to the Catholic high day.

And you are free to preach this if you want. But this preaching is not from the Word's of the Bible. That is the point here. You are furthering a gospel that neither the Law and Prophets taught, nor Jesus, nor even one of His Apostles. You take one verse and are willing to use it to wipe out everything written about the Christ's Sabbaths in order to justify your religion.

The Pharisees did the same thing Red. They took one scripture and used it as justification to murder the only truly perfect human being ever born. Not on purpose Red, they thought they were serving God. They were deceived, which means they believed things about God that were not true.

You are deceived Red. Which is OK, we are all deceived at some point, God says so. The problem is staying in this condition even when the deception has been exposed.

You don't want to discuss Matt. 12, because you know it doesn't teach what your attribute to it. You refuse to even acknowledge your statement about Paul calling God's Commandments "Beggarly Elements" in Gal. 4, because you now know you are preaching lies about this verse.

You are trapped between deception and humiliation. To admit your error in front of others would cause humiliation you are not willing to endure. So you choose deception to save face.

The Mainstream preachers of Christ's Time did the same thing.

 In your case, it would be "should I admit what I now know is true, that Paul did not call God's Commandments "Beggarly Elements" in Gal. 4, and that Jesus didn't give us a "new Lord's Day" in Matt. 12. And suffer the public humiliation that this dog, this no-body, this putrid nothing, with no Moody Bible school degree, or any "learning" from our precious religious franchises, corrected me"?

Or shall I take the path of the Pharisees and work to deflect from the teaching and belittle and ridicule this little nobody?

Red, the following is according to "Every Word which proceeds from the mouth of God";

The Christ did not give man a "New Lord's Day", just as He didn't give man Good Friday or Halloween. But He created, sanctified and Blessed the 7th Day, and placed the Commandment to honor it among 10 of the most influential Laws ever created in the history of the planet. There was a reason why the Christ did this.

God's Sabbath is not a Jewish Sabbath. The Jews did not honor God's Sabbaths. Zechariahs and Simeon did, but the Pharisees and Levite Priests did not. To Preach that the Christ created, sanctified and Blessed the 7th day only for men of a certain DNA is a deception that has snared "many" who come in Christ's Name. It is a lie to say God's Sabbath is a Jewish Sabbath.

Paul did not call God's Commandments "Beggarly Element" ever, even once in the entire Bible. This is a lie, flat out, designed by religious men to deceive folks into believing Paul hates God's Laws and much as they do. It is not true that Paul called God's Commandments "Beggarly Elements", yet that is exactly what you preach.

Don't hide yourself from your own flesh Red. You don't have to preach these falsehoods.

Don't be a Pharisee Red, be a Nicodemus.



Offline GB

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Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
« Reply #264 on: Tue Jan 14, 2020 - 11:03:06 »
author=Michael2012 link=topic=74624.msg1055154587#msg1055154587 date=1578912938]
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According to the context in which Paul used it, I hope I am Spiritually alive, not dead according to the Letter. (The wages of sin is death) If I am Spiritually dead, then I am under the Law.

You hope? Why, do you have doubts whether you are spiritually alive or dead?

Rom. 8:24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?

25 But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.

I know Eve was convinced she was all set as do you and "many" who come in Christ's Name. But Eve was deceived. This is an example written for my admonition, used for doctrine, correction, and instruction in righteousness. You are convinced Jesus isn't the "Repairer of the Breech". Just because you are convinced of something, doesn't make it truth.

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And since you are hoping to be spiritually alive, you indirectly are saying that you are hoping to NOT be under the law. At least you correctly hope to be not under the Law. But let me tell you this, that perhaps, it will erase your doubts. Scriptures says that those who are in Christ, the believer that is, are NOT under the Law, but are under grace.


Scriptures say a lot of things. Like "Not everyone who calls Me Lord, Lord, shall enter the Kingdom of heaven". So just because you are convinced Jesus is your Lord, doesn't make it so.

Matt. 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.



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If I am still dead, I have already been judged by the Law. But if I am alive because of God's Grace, I can become a new man, and "Strive to enter" another path. One that respects God and Honors God with my body.

1 Cor. 6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? 20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.

In other words, you agree that one who is under the Law is judged by the Law. SO, we agree on that.

No, you are cleaver in your little gotcha games and all, and I am bored so I'll play your games for the exercise for a little longer, but you are mis-representing my belief here. If I am already spiritually dead, the law has already judged me. It is not still judging me because the dead are not judged any longer. "For he that is dead is freed from sin." The Law only judges those who are alive.

16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

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You said "If I am still dead, I have already been judged by the Law. But if I am alive because of God's Grace, I can become a new man, and "Strive to enter" another path." I understand and so take that when you say "dead" there in your statement, you refer to being dead in sin. Thus, before you were made alive because of God's grace, you were dead (in sin) first. And one who says they are alive because of God's grace, only means that they were saved from death or being dead. And saved from death as he already is by God's grace, by God's grace also he is made alive and  continue to live. Let me share to you the following scriptures:

John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. 

Now, he who was dead and now was made alive, is a new man.

Maybe? "If I continue in His Goodness", otherwise I shall be cut off.

Maybe? "if I depart from iniquity", otherwise Jesus doesn't even know me.

Maybe? "if" I keep His Commandments.

I can "Put on the New Man", I can "Strive to enter a certain gate", I can "put on the Armor of God", I can look for the "Escapes" God gives me in every temptation. "I can not let disobedience to God reign in my mortal body", I can "resist the devil".

These are all things a man who is alive can do to overcome in this life. A dead man can do none of these things.

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Not because he can of himself become a new man, but that because God had created him anew in righteousness and true holiness ~ he is born again. He is God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that he should walk in them.

Jesus doesn't "deny Himself for us". Jesus doesn't "continue in His Goodness" for us. Jesus doesn't "put on the New Man" for us. Jesus doesn't "Depart from iniquity" for us. He raises us up a "New Man", who can made new choices, and who can "serve righteousness" instead of serve sin. Jesus doesn't "serve Righteousness for us" He doesn't "Walk in the good works foreordained by God that we should walk in them"  for us.

Matt. 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:

Jesus doesn't "Do them" for us.

Yes, "many" who come in Christ's Name preach just that. That we are raised from the dead and are not obligated to do anything. Jesus does it all for us. But this is one of the many religions Jesus and His Prophets and Disciples warned to stay away from.


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If I am dead, which is what it means to be "Under the Law", then I am free from sin. The dead can not praise God. But if I am alive by God's Grace, then I am not my own. I am purchased with HIS Blood. My old self crucified with Him. Now I am a "servant" of the Christ of the Bible, running the race that is set before me, striving against sin, and striving to enter the Narrow Path. I am bound to the one whom I serve, as it is written.

You said "If I am dead, which is what it means to be "Under the Law", then I am free from sin." So if you are alive, what that means to you is that you are "NOT under the Law". Right? And so also, by what you say there, if you are "NOT under the law" then you are NOT free from sin. "NOT free" to me denotes slavery, being bound, confined as in the case of a prisoner. Won't you like to review and reconsider what you are saying there?

I am bound. I am a servant to whom I obey. You aren't. In your religion you are "Free from God's Laws". But according to the Scriptures, all of them, we are free from the wages of sin, not the definition of sin.

I am not ashamed of the Scriptures Michael. I'm fine with being a New Man, and this time a servant to righteousness, instead of a servant to transgression of God's Laws.
 
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I suspect that there is something needed to be clarified in all of that. What do you mean by "dead" in your statement? Are you referring to being dead in sin as that spoken in Ephesians 2:1 or are you referring to being dead to sin as that spoken in Romans 6:2? 

Eph. 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

These are people who are snared by the religions of the land. "Children of Disobedience". So when I see a person who is furthering a religion which rejects God's commandments, I know these folks are not alive, but dead. Because if they were alive, they would be "walking" in the "good works" God before ordained that they should walk in them, not preach to the world that there are "free" from them.

Romans 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?

2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

Same definition as Eph. 2.

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Also, by implication, you are saying that one who serves the law (servant of the Law, so to speak) is bound by the law.

It depends on what Law you are talking about here. If you are talking about the Levitical Priesthood the Jews were pushing, with it's "works of the Law" for justification of sins, that God "ADDED" to His existing Law "Till the Seed should come", then no, I don't serve that "ADDED" Law. I serve the Christ who promised of a Covenant "after those days" when HE would atone for my sins with His own Blood. I am justified by Faith, not by the Levitical Priesthood sacrificial "works of the Law"  That Law was changed and Jesus is now my High Priest.

But if you are talking about the definition of sin, the two greatest Commandments and all that defines them (Law and Prophets) then I am absolutely bound by them. Aren't you?

 I mean "Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

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I'd like to mention, and so be aware, at this point that the law we speak of here is the law of God which He gave to Israel when He took them out of Egypt. I get the impression by your answers so far, that you are not bound by the law because you said you are now a servant of Christ, so not a servant of the law.

How can I be a servant of the Christ, and not "DO" what He instructs? I can say I'm a servant of Christ. I can have a I heart Jesus bumper sticker on my car, a WWJD bracelet on my wrist. But if I "practice disobedience to God's Laws" He doesn't even know me. At least this is what the Christ of the Bible teaches.


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So again you evade the issue question, that is, "If you are under the law, if you keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, would you say you are guilty of all?". Not one of the scriptures you quoted answers the question GB. The very simple question evidently is too hard for you to answer. It amazes me indeed. Let me help you have courage by sharing this scriptures:

James 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

There you go. The only thing left for you to do is believe and accept that. So when one speaks a lie, he is said to be guilty of breaking all, that is, he is also then guilty of breaking the 4th commandment, don't you agree? Some see that as unjust and unfair. How about you? Do you see it the same way? Now, you know fully well that any one who breaks even a single commandment of God is a sinner. Now, what scriptures say regarding this is:

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

I don't evade your question Michael. I answered it perfectly. Here, let me answer it again, this time so even a child can understand the reason for my hope.

I am hopeful of the promises of the Christ.

1 John 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not.

This is the goal of the New Man. We are children learning obedience to the Father. The first thing we are told, "don't disobey the Father".

But if we slip, if we don't see the escape from the temptation, if we drop the shield of the Armor of God, if we mess up like children do, have faith.

And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

So if I break one, I break them all. That is why we are to "Strive against sin". Transgressing God's Laws is very, very bad. We are told "don't do it". But if we do, if we fall down, get back up and run the race that is set before us.

3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.

This is how we know God writes His Commandments on our hearts, if we keep them.

4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

Paul warns of these religious men, who come in His Name, as does Jesus. If they aren't honoring and "laboring" to walk in the "good works" God before Ordained that we should walk in them, the are still dead in their sins.

5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.

It is in this obedience that we are humbled, that we learn, that we are strengthened. God's Love, His Commandments, are perfected in us when we walk in them, not when we reject them.

6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

We are on a journey, that is Paul was and I am.

Paul, a former Pharisee, explains my heart better than I can.

Phil. 3:8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,

His religion, his friends, his own religious traditions. I don't think you really know what humiliation Paul suffered when the Christ showed him that the religion he and his family and fathers had followed for centuries, with teaching for doctrines the Commandments of men, were not from God, but from the devil. He was so zealous, so convinced he was a good Child of Abraham. But he was deceived. That's a tough pill for any religious man to swallow.

9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

Paul used to take a turtle dove to the Levite Priest, according to the "ADDED" Law given by Moses on Mt. Sinai, to cleanse him of his sins and make him righteous. And his religious brethren after the flesh, were still relying on the "priesthood "Works of the Law" for cleansing their unrighteousness. But he learned that no man is justified by "works of the law", and that his brethren, after the flesh, were not obeying God, but their own religious traditions.


10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;

11 If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.

Paul also lived in hope, as I do.

12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.

Paul stumbled as well. He knew he wasn't yet perfected, but he continued to strive to this end.

13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,

14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.

15 Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.

So there is a detailed answer, using much the same scriptures you ignored, only this time I explained so even a child can understand.

I will address the rest  on another post

Offline GB

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Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
« Reply #265 on: Tue Jan 14, 2020 - 11:07:44 »

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I hope that at this point you now see the wisdom of God in His salvation and His grace in Christ. For God's Grace allowed these believers to escape the bondage of man made religions, just as those converted in Gal. 4. But the pull and power of religious tradition is strong and Paul has to stay on them.

20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,

21 (Touch not; taste not; handle not;

22 Which all are to perish with the using;) after the commandments and doctrines of men? (NOT GOD as "many" who come in His Name, falsely preach)


And in Col. 2:16, after spending several verses explaining God had "destroyed" the "certificate of debts expressed in decrees," metaphorical for the old Law, he exhorts the readers not to tolerate anyone presuming to sit in judgment over them in regard to the old festivals and holy days, explicitly including "Sabbaths."


scriptures says that there is no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus.

And scriptures also say that not everyone who says they are in Christ Jesus, are in Christ Jesus.

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Only in Christ are we not only saved, but even, securely saved.


"IF" you do as He says, otherwise you are not "securely saved".

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For even the believer, the Christians, who are still in their sinful flesh (the body of this death, as Paul speaks of it), do still fall into sin.

Falling in disobedience to God's Laws, and rejecting God's Laws are two completely different things.


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But this problem had been taken cared of by Jesus Christ Himself, so that scriptures says there is no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus. That is not to suggest that we are free to deliberately sin. Of course not. Paul speaks a lot about this in Romans 6.

What is "deliberate" sin? Is that an action where a person looks at a Commandment of God, but then rejects it outright?

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If I was dead because I rejected His Laws, and by His Grace, He paid the penalty for my transgressions, why would I transgress God's Laws again and place Jesus to an open shame? I am not free from His instruction, I am freed from the death transgression of His Laws caused me.

Rom. 6:12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.

13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.

14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid. (That means NO! Michael)

16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

In other words, your answer is NO, that you are not free from the law.

The answer to your question was just given by Paul. He is the one who is preaching when we become alive, we have the same choice we had before. Who are we to yield our self to obey? The first time we chose "another voice. shall we make the same choice after Jesus paid the price for our first mistake? God forbid.

It isn't me who is telling you we are not free from God's Definition of Sin, His definition of Good, and His definition of righteousness. It is Paul. And I believe him even if you don't.

If I am dead, I am free from His law. But if I'm alive by HIS Grace, I am not free from His Law. Well, in the religions of the land I am free from His law. But Paul, when he was made alive, "served the Law of God in his mind".

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If you are not free from the law, then you know what that means, don't you? But concerning the Christian, according to Paul, he had been freed from the law.

No, that is a deception of the ancient religious traditions of the land. Paul never teaches that were are free from God's Commandments. We are free from death, free from sin. But we are not free from God's Instructions. Paul teaches just the opposite.

16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?


   
If I am not dead, it is because Jesus shed His Blood for me. But He didn't shed His Blood so I could reject His Laws again. At least according to the Christ of the Bible.


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Again you really did not answer the question, but evaded it. It's a bad habit and cheap tactic of yours, I know.

GB, him who is not under the law, is not bound by the law. Now, those who are in Christ had been freed from the law and so not bound by it. They are no longer under the law, but are now under grace. Paul repeatedly said that in Romans 6. And again, that is not to suggest that we can deliberately sin. God forbid!

You are furthering ancient religious traditions of men, not what Paul teaches in Romans 6.

Rom. 6:18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

He doesn't say you free from God's Commandments, you made that part up.


Rom. 6:22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.

He doesn't say free from God's Instructions, Laws, Commandments at all. You are making that part up.

Quote
Now, those who are in Christ had been freed from the law and so not bound by it.

This is a deception Michael. And ancient religious doctrine of the religions of the land. Paul does not even imply this teaching in Rom. 6, or anywhere else.

Offline GB

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Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
« Reply #266 on: Tue Jan 14, 2020 - 11:30:48 »
OK,
I wonder why Moses didn't think to make up that God commanded men to keep a 7th day sabbath, or make up that men did keep a 7th day sabbath. 
Perhaps he knew the SDAs would make it up 3,000 years later!!.

It's perfectly normal and expected that you would reject and ignore every scripture and the arguments they raise about your religion which preaches that God's Blessing and Sanctification of the 7th day of the week only lasted 24 hours. Or that a Law of God doesn't exist until He writes it down.

It's seems you might have actually consider the Holy scriptures, and what they teach given you asked the question. Instead you ignore them and make foolish statements about this religious franchise or that religious franchise. I don't care about SDA, I don't promote their religion. My posts have nothing to do with them, you are just deflecting because, as this post clearly shows, you are not here to actually discuss scripture, rather, you are here to justify your own religious franchise over another.




Offline winsome

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Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
« Reply #267 on: Tue Jan 14, 2020 - 14:07:38 »
It's perfectly normal and expected that you would reject and ignore every scripture and the arguments they raise about your religion which preaches that God's Blessing and Sanctification of the 7th day of the week only lasted 24 hours. Or that a Law of God doesn't exist until He writes it down.
You seem to specialise in making straw men arguments by claiming someone said something they didn't or distorting what said. 
 
God's blessing of something lasts as long as the thing that is blessed, or until God withdraws his blessing from it. 
 
God blessed the seventh day of creation week. Scripture does not say that he blessed every 7th day after that.
 
Fact 1. Scripture does not say God blessed every 7th day
Fact 2. Scripture does not record God telling anyone to keep a 7th day sabbath until Ex 16:23-30
Fact 3. Scripture does not record anyone keeping a 7th day sabbath until Ex 16:23-30
 
 

It's seems you might have actually consider the Holy scriptures, and what they teach given you asked the question. Instead you ignore them and make foolish statements about this religious franchise or that religious franchise. I don't care about SDA, I don't promote their religion. My posts have nothing to do with them, you are just deflecting because, as this post clearly shows, you are not here to actually discuss scripture, rather, you are here to justify your own religious franchise over another.
Making such a silly rant and referring to 'religious franchises' does nothing for your credibility.
 

Offline RB

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Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
« Reply #268 on: Tue Jan 14, 2020 - 15:53:26 »
LOL, I see you are deflecting from your preaching that Jesus gave us a "New Lord's Day" in Matt. 12. Of course you did, you got caught telling another Windy. You must save face.
Quote from: The Wise man
Proverbs 26:4~Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest thou also be like unto him.
We have learned that fools like you do not deserve answers. I should save myself the pain, trouble, and waste of time dealing with you by ignoring your saucy, stupid, or scornful post. I keep asking myself why I do not take the high road of truth and wisdom, and stop stooping to your haughty insolence and lazy ignorance. Answers are not a right to anyone~they are a privilege only for those meeting conditions for the love of the truth, and humbleness

I KNOW that it is wrong to debate with fools. They do not deserve knowledge or truth. Wisdom is too precious to waste on them. Wise men have better uses of their time. And arguing is a fleshly lust, for the most part. For these reasons, it is a sin to debate with men like you who do not clearly display godly character and conduct and a love for God's precious truth.  If I continue debating you and men like you, all I'm doing is honoring your foolish ignorance.

I should only say enough to shut your mouths, (and have many times over) but anything more is folly and sin (Proverbs 26:5). You deserve no honor (Proverbs 26:1). Men with truth do not back down from any, but it has no obligation to waste its time on any, either. You are not concerned with truth~I asked you a question above and as usual, made no attempt to address it.
Quote from: RB on: Yesterday at 14:44:37
Question for you: What did the apostle John mean when he said that he was in the Spirit ON THE LORD'S DAY?


« Last Edit: Wed Jan 15, 2020 - 03:57:54 by RB »

Offline RB

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Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
« Reply #269 on: Wed Jan 15, 2020 - 03:56:54 »
Quote from: The Wise man
Proverbs 26:5~Answer a fool according to his folly, lest he be wise in his own conceit.

As we said above fools do not deserve truth or the honor of a kind answer (Proverbs 17:16; 26:1). They will mock your good words, and/or they will pervert them to slander you and will build a strawman and debate him as though they are defending the truth (Matthew 7:6). The general rule is to avoid fools and not answer them (Proverbs 14:7; 23:9). But before you leave them, God says to silence their babbling lest they get puffed up by you ignoring them.

Fools think and speak contrary to God, truth, and wisdom~they live by the god that they have created in their own hearts and say and teach what they do based on the fact if they were God this is what we would teach and say. A wise man must shut their mouths, lest they presume their thoughts are acceptable or right. Even then one is very seldom successful! If a fool is not rebuked, he will become conceited in his error and turn into a scorner (Proverbs 26:12). Before his case is utterly hopeless, and truth lies mangled in the mud, it is good to ridicule his foolish ideas just as Elijah did to the prophets of Baal. 

Fools vary in religious sects, and education and intelligence. Great fools write books, teach at the university level, work in the media, or preach on Sunday. They espouse and defend sodomy, protect abortion, condemn corporal and capital punishment, etc., etc. Little fools worship the great fools.

All these fools must be shut up. Do not expect them to receive truth or wisdom. God has turned them over to reprobate minds (Romans 1:18-28). They cannot recognize truth, even if it shines daily from the sun and nightly from the stars and moon (Psalms 19:1-6). If you encounter one, let him know he is wrong in no uncertain terms, and then avoid him.

You meet fools every day. Foolishness abounds in America, partly because no one will speak out against it. When fools say or do something foolish, it is your prudent duty and blessed privilege to correct them with truth. But after you shut their mouths, you must ignore them, lest you cast pearls before swine and give holy things to dogs (Matthew7:6).

Our Lord Jesus was a master at shutting fools’ mouths. He was the best, and He was unmerciful to their fallacies and heresies. He supernaturally (because he was God manifest in human flesh, a doctrine that GB rejects) discerned their foolish thoughts, and He would turn their carefully planned questions upside down. When He was through, they could not answer, nor did they want to ask any more questions (Matthew 22:15-46), but we are not him, so it comes a time when we must leave them to their own depraved hearts and fleshly wisdom, which is from beneath and not of God but is earthly and devilish, per.....
Quote from: The apostle James
James 3:15~"This wisdom descendeth not from above, but is earthly, sensual, devilish."




« Last Edit: Wed Jan 15, 2020 - 05:14:51 by RB »

Offline RB

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Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
« Reply #270 on: Wed Jan 15, 2020 - 04:33:45 »
Quote from: The apostle John
Revelation 1:10~"I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,
WHAT DAY OF THE WEEK IS THE LORD'S DAY is of great importance to the Christian religion of Jesus Christ. The Holy Spirit called a certain day of the week the Lord's day, and this should be observed carefully by lovers of the truth.

It is very clear that the Lord's day was NOT the Jewish Sabbath day, which was now abolished, for the Jewish Sabbath day is never refer to as the Lord's day, never~ and had John meant that, he would have said on the sabbath day. It is very clear that our Lord rosed from the dead on the FIRST DAY of the week, that is without controversy, at least it should be~so,  the first day of the week is here designed as the Lord's day; and is so called just as the ordinance of the supper is called the Lord's supper, being instituted by the Lord, and the Lord's table, ( 1st Corinthians 10:21; 11:20 )..... and that because it was the day in which our Lord rose from the dead as we just mentioned See and consider: Mark 16:9; and in which he appeared at different times to his disciples, (John 20:19 John 20:26), and which the apostles themselves set apart for service, and on which they met together to hear the word, and attend on ordinances, and lay asides money for the poor brethren and their needs See and consider: Acts 20:7; 1st Corinthians 16:1.

We see in Revelation one that John was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ and could not join with the saints in the public worship of that day; yet he was employed in spiritual contemplations and exercises, on a particular day he called the Lord's Day, which could not have been just been any day of the week and still be called the LORD'S DAY.
« Last Edit: Wed Jan 15, 2020 - 05:09:32 by RB »

Offline GB

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Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
« Reply #271 on: Wed Jan 15, 2020 - 10:14:26 »
We have learned that fools like you do not deserve answers. I should save myself the pain, trouble, and waste of time dealing with you by ignoring your saucy, stupid, or scornful post. I keep asking myself why I do not take the high road of truth and wisdom, and stop stooping to your haughty insolence and lazy ignorance. Answers are not a right to anyone~they are a privilege only for those meeting conditions for the love of the truth, and humbleness

I KNOW that it is wrong to debate with fools. They do not deserve knowledge or truth. Wisdom is too precious to waste on them. Wise men have better uses of their time. And arguing is a fleshly lust, for the most part. For these reasons, it is a sin to debate with men like you who do not clearly display godly character and conduct and a love for God's precious truth.  If I continue debating you and men like you, all I'm doing is honoring your foolish ignorance.

I should only say enough to shut your mouths, (and have many times over) but anything more is folly and sin (Proverbs 26:5). You deserve no honor (Proverbs 26:1). Men with truth do not back down from any, but it has no obligation to waste its time on any, either. You are not concerned with truth~I asked you a question above and as usual, made no attempt to address it.

I am questioning your preaching, just as Jesus questioned the Mainstream preachers of His Time, and just as we are also tasked with "testing the spirits".

And like them, you are offended and angered that I would dare question someone who is as righteous as you have convinced yourself you are. And work, as they did, to discredit anyone who would dare question you. I have come to expect nothing different from you.

Your refusal to answer for your own statements is typical of religious men through out the Bible. And your name calling and ridicule of those who would point them out is also exactly how the Jews responded to those whose who would dare question their self appointed superiority.

In all this, what is important is to point out the obvious Biblical Truth that Jesus didn't give us a New Lord's day in Matt. 12, or Rev. 1, and Paul never called God's Commandments "Beggarly Elements" EVER.

 You are furthering religious doctrines which are untrue. You don't care? That's fine, neither did those preachers of Christ's time. But it's my duty to point these falsehoods out.

I show you these things because I thought you would want to know. Apparently not.



 





Offline GB

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Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
« Reply #272 on: Wed Jan 15, 2020 - 10:55:51 »
 author=RB link=topic=74624.msg1055154667#msg1055154667 date=1579084425]
Quote
WHAT DAY OF THE WEEK IS THE LORD'S DAY is of great importance to the Christian religion of Jesus Christ. The Holy Spirit called a certain day of the week the Lord's day, and this should be observed carefully by lovers of the truth.

It is very clear that the Lord's day was NOT the Jewish Sabbath day, which was now abolished, for the Jewish Sabbath day is never refer to as the Lord's day, never~

Ex. 20:10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:

Lev. 23:2 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, Concerning the feasts of the LORD, which ye shall proclaim to be holy convocations, even these are my feasts.

3 Six days shall work be done: but the seventh day is the sabbath of rest, an holy convocation; ye shall do no work therein: it is the sabbath of the LORD in all your dwellings.

4 These are the feasts of the LORD[/u], even holy convocations, which ye shall proclaim in their seasons.

Mark. 2:27 And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath: 28 Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath.

Is. 58:13 If thou turn away thy foot from the sabbath, from doing thy pleasure on my holy day; and call the sabbath a delight, the holy of the LORD, honourable; and shalt honour him, not doing thine own ways, nor finding thine own pleasure, nor speaking thine own words:

Again, You say there is no place in the Holy scriptures where God's Holy Sabbath is call the Lord's day. But when we read God's Word it is clear that the Sabbath of the Bible is the "Sabbath of the Lord".

1 Cor. 10:20 But I say, that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to devils, and not to God: and I would not that ye should have fellowship with devils.

21 Ye cannot drink the cup of the Lord, and the cup of devils: ye cannot be partakers of the Lord's table, and of the table of devils.

Nothing about Jesus giving us a "New Lord's Day".

1Cor. 11:19 For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you.

20 When ye come together therefore into one place, this is not to eat the Lord's supper.

21 For in eating every one taketh before other his own supper: and one is hungry, and another is drunken.

Again, nothing about Jesus giving us a "New Lord's Day".

"
Quote
and that because it was the day in which our Lord rose from the dead"

In all 4 accounts Jesus had already rose from the dead and was gone before anyone got there. You have no Biblical proof that Jesus rose from the dead on Sunday. It is ancient catholic doctrine.

God knew the day Jesus would rise from the dead before He created the 7 day week. He Blessed and Sanctified the 7th day and called it the "Lord's Sabbath" throughout the Bible.

You have nothing Red, no Prophesy of God promising to create a "New Lord's Day". No mention by Jesus of Him changing or creating a "New Lord's Day".

You have nothing but one or two verses that do not say what you attribute to them, just as you attribute to Paul things he never said.

So given that Jesus is said to be the Creator God of the Law and Prophets, and given all things were created by Him. And given the 7th Day was created, it is not arguable that Jesus, before becoming a man, created the 7th Day Sabbath. It is said to be HIS Sabbath, or the "Sabbath of the Lord" as it is written in your Bible.

So your statement "for the Jewish Sabbath day is never refer to as the Lord's day, never" is another in a long line of religious doctrines you preach that are contrary to what the Scriptures really say.

"Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath".

The Catholic High Days do not trump the Lord's Sabbaths Red. In your religion, yes, but not according to the Word's of the Christ.


Offline winsome

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Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
« Reply #273 on: Wed Jan 15, 2020 - 14:08:14 »
@GB.
I think you are not comparing like with like.

I haven't done an exhaustive check on this but (using the KJV):

In the Old Testament:
the word translated as LORD (in capitals) is YHWH
the word translated as Lord (not all capitals) is Adoni
the word translated as God is Elohim.

Therefore in passages such as Ex 20:10 and Lev 23:4, LORD refers to YHWH.

In the New Testament, in the gospel of John (and his letters):
the word translated as Lord is kurios
the word translated as God is theos

John seems to use kurios for people addressing Jesus.

In Rev 1 John uses  kurios for the Lord's day.

It would therefore seem reasonable to conclude that by the Lord's day John is referring to Jesus not YHWH.

Offline RB

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Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
« Reply #274 on: Thu Jan 16, 2020 - 04:33:45 »
Ex. 20:10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou, shalt not do any work thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
GB, I'm going to use your golden calf that you worship and prove to you that the Sabbath day and the Lord's day are two different days, not as you vainly declared:
Quote from: GB on: Yesterday at 10:55:51
Again, You say there is no place in the Holy scriptures where God's Holy Sabbath is call the Lord's day. But when we read God's Word it is clear that the Sabbath of the Bible is the "Sabbath of the Lord".

1 Cor. 10:20 But I say, that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to devils, and not to God: and I would not that ye should have fellowship with devils.

21 Ye cannot drink the cup of the Lord, and the cup of devils: ye cannot be partakers of the Lord's table, and of the table of devils.

Nothing about Jesus giving us a "New Lord's Day".

1Cor. 11:19 For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you.

20 When ye come together therefore into one place, this is not to eat the Lord's supper.

21 For in eating every one taketh before other his own supper: and one is hungry, and another is drunken.

Again, nothing about Jesus giving us a "New Lord's Day".
Before I start you need to learn how to debate and refute other's arguments to give your position some credibility, or at least some proof that you are sincere in searching after the truth, which in all of your many posts you have not shown that to be so~that is, being sincere in searching and trying the spirits. It's hard to sit by and not answer a man who is full of vain words and full of talk without any substance backing him.
Quote
Job 11:2~"Should not the multitude of words be answered? and should a man full of talk be justified?"
Your mouth which is full of vain talk is nothing more than you recycling the same of verbiage over and over again! You live in a very small area of the scriptures and even there you do not know your way around, but you show yourself to be more confused than a country boy from Georgia walking the street of New York City during rush hour!

If we read the four gospel's accounts of the Lord's burial and resurrection, it is VERY CLEAR that the women who went to the grave to add sweet spices to his body went AFTER THE JEWISH SABBATH which was a REST day for all of them. Consider:
Quote
Matthew 28:1~"In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre."
Quote
Mark 16:9~"And when the sabbath was past, Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James, and Salome, had bought sweet spices, that they might come and anoint him. And very early in the morning the first day of the week, they came unto the sepulchre at the rising of the sun. And they said among themselves, Who shall roll us away the stone from the door of the sepulchre? And when they looked, they saw that the stone was rolled away: for it was very great. And entering into the sepulchre, they saw a young man sitting on the right side, clothed in a long white garment; and they were affrighted. And he saith unto them, Be not affrighted: Ye seek Jesus of Nazareth, which was crucified: he is risen; he is not here: behold the place where they laid him. But go your way, tell his disciples and Peter that he goeth before you into Galilee: there shall ye see him, as he said unto you. And they went out quickly, and fled from the sepulchre; for they trembled and were amazed: neither said they any thing to any man; for they were afraid. Now when Jesus was risen early the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom he had cast seven devils."
Quote
Luke 24:1~"Now upon the first day of the week, very early in the morning, they came unto the sepulchre, bringing the spices which they had prepared, and certain others with them."
Quote
John 20:1~"The first day of the week cometh Mary Magdalene early, when it was yet dark, unto the sepulchre, and seeth the stone taken away from the sepulchre."
Now, GB, we have all four witnesses from each gospel writer~let us see if the Jewish Sabbath and the first day of the week in WHICH THE SCRIPTURES ARE CLEAR as to when Jesus arose from the dead are even connected or that the scriptures carefully separated the Jewish Sabbath from the day in which Jesus triumphantly arose from the dead.  Mark's accounts leave NO DOUBT as to THE DAY in which Jesus rose from the dead, for he clearly said:
Quote
Mark 16:9~Now when Jesus was risen early the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom he had cast seven devils."
The Jewish Sabbath day which was the SEVENTH DAY is not the day in which Jesus rose from the grave PER THE TESTIMONY of the word of God. I'm just getting started~the scriptures tells us that Jesus was in the grave for THREE NIGHTS and THREE FULL DAYS~and AFTER three nights and three days he rose from the dead which could ONLY have been on the FIRST DAY OF THE WEEK! I'll wait for you to consider the four gospels and from them PROVE that Jesus rose on the Jewish Sabbath day. The first day of the week is the Lord's day in the sense in which John used that phrase.
« Last Edit: Thu Jan 16, 2020 - 05:45:24 by RB »

Offline GB

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Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
« Reply #275 on: Thu Jan 16, 2020 - 08:42:16 »
@GB.
I think you are not comparing like with like.

I haven't done an exhaustive check on this but (using the KJV):

In the Old Testament:
the word translated as LORD (in capitals) is YHWH
the word translated as Lord (not all capitals) is Adoni
the word translated as God is Elohim.

Therefore in passages such as Ex 20:10 and Lev 23:4, LORD refers to YHWH.

In the New Testament, in the gospel of John (and his letters):
the word translated as Lord is kurios
the word translated as God is theos

John seems to use kurios for people addressing Jesus.

In Rev 1 John uses  kurios for the Lord's day.

It would therefore seem reasonable to conclude that by the Lord's day John is referring to Jesus not YHWH.

I appreciate what you are saying. I have heard of the religious doctrine which attempts to divide the Christ from God in order to promote ancient religious high days.

The problem with this doctrine, in my view, are the scriptures which tell us plainly, that Jesus was the creator God of the Bible who became Flesh. That all that was created, which would include the 7 day week, was created by the Christ who became a man. "Was with God and was God", "I and My Father are one", "What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before". etc.

Col. 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

So to keep the post short I won't post all the scriptures which teach us that Jesus, before becoming a man, created the 7 day week and Blessed and Sanctified it. He created the swine, that He sent the evil spirits into, unclean. He created Passover and Pentecost and called them "Holy Convocations". As a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient unto death".

Is there another Lord?

Is. 45:5 I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:

6 That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else.

7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.


So given this scriptural evidence it would seem that when the Bible says "Lord of the Sabbath", or "Sabbath of the Lord", it is speaking to the Same Lord and the same Sabbath.

Rev. 1:10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet.

Given what the scriptures teach regarding this Lord, and His Creation, how can this be talking about some other Lord, or some other Lord's Day?

What if it's religious man who created the "New Lord's Day", and John was speaking about the same Day Jesus said HE is the Lord of?

Religious traditions are a powerful force in this world, and we are warned over and over about them.

These topics are good for men to discuss.










Offline GB

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Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
« Reply #276 on: Thu Jan 16, 2020 - 10:29:14 »
 author=RB link=topic=74624.msg1055154704#msg1055154704 date=1579170825]
Quote
GB, I'm going to use your golden calf that you worship and prove to you that the Sabbath day and the Lord's day are two different days, not as you vainly declared:

I don't worship the day Red, I Honor the creator of it. I am simply posting scriptures which define the "Sabbath of the Lord". You are promoting the "sabbath of the Pope". You are angry because the scriptures don't support your Sabbath, but they do support the "Sabbath of the Lord".




Quote
Before I start you need to learn how to debate and refute other's arguments to give your position some credibility, or at least some proof that you are sincere in searching after the truth, which in all of your many posts you have not shown that to be so~that is, being sincere in searching and trying the spirits. It's hard to sit by and not answer a man who is full of vain words and full of talk without any substance backing him. Your mouth which is full of vain talk is nothing more than you recycling the same of verbiage over and over again! You live in a very small area of the scriptures and even there you do not know your way around, but you show yourself to be more confused than a country boy from Georgia walking the street of New York City during rush hour!


Yes, well you are entitled to your opinion. But I think you should consider what "vain" really means. Teaching to the world that Paul called the Commandments of God "Beggarly Elements", that is "Vain deceit" Red. All your deflection, miss-direction doesn't change the fact that you are preaching something about God's Word that isn't true.

I am well versed in the Scriptures, it's the catholic doctrines you promote that I have trouble with.


Quote
If we read the four gospel's accounts of the Lord's burial and resurrection, it is VERY CLEAR that the women who went to the grave to add sweet spices to his body went AFTER THE JEWISH SABBATH which was a REST day for all of them. Consider: Now, GB, we have all four witnesses from each gospel writer~let us see if the Jewish Sabbath and the first day of the week in WHICH THE SCRIPTURES ARE CLEAR as to when Jesus arose from the dead are even connected or that the scriptures carefully separated the Jewish Sabbath from the day in which Jesus triumphantly arose from the dead.  Mark's accounts leave NO DOUBT as to THE DAY in which Jesus rose from the dead, for he clearly said: The Jewish Sabbath day which was the SEVENTH DAY is not the day in which Jesus rose from the grave PER THE TESTIMONY of the word of God. I'm just getting started~the scriptures tells us that Jesus was in the grave for THREE NIGHTS and THREE FULL DAYS~and AFTER three nights and three days he rose from the dead which could ONLY have been on the FIRST DAY OF THE WEEK! I'll wait for you to consider the four gospels and from them PROVE that Jesus rose on the Jewish Sabbath day. The first day of the week is the Lord's day in the sense in which John used that phrase.

Yes Red, in all 4 gospels those disciples and followers of the Christ kept HIS Sabbath Holy even after HIS death. Of course they did. It is the "Sabbath of the Lord".

And in all 4 Gospels they didn't go to the Grave until the Sabbath was over, at sundown Saturday night.

And in all 4 gospels, the stone was moved, Jesus has raised from the dead, and He was gone, all before they even got there.

The Mark verse you quote, depending on where the comma is inserted, contradicts Mark's own words at the beginning of the chapter.

Now when Jesus was risen early the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom he had cast seven devils.

or

Now when Jesus was risen, early the first day of the week he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom he had cast seven devils.

In Mark's account, depending on where one places a coma, that wasn't there to begin with, this verse can be made to even contradict Marks own statements in the beginning of the chapter.

When Mary got there, early Sunday morning, He was already gone.

Mark 16: 6. And he saith unto them, Be not affrighted: Ye seek Jesus of Nazareth, which was crucified: he is risen; he is not here: behold the place where they laid him.



Matt. 28: 1 In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre.

6 He is not here: for he is risen, as he said. Come, see the place where the Lord lay.

Already raised from the dead and gone.

Luke 24:1 Now upon the first day of the week, very early in the morning, they came unto the sepulchre, bringing the spices which they had prepared, and certain others with them.

2 And they found the stone rolled away from the sepulchre.

3 And they entered in, and found not the body of the Lord Jesus.
 
Already raised from the dead and gone.

John 20:1 The first day of the week cometh Mary Magdalene early, when it was yet dark, unto the sepulchre, and seeth the stone taken away from the sepulchre.

2 Then she runneth, and cometh to Simon Peter, and to the other disciple, whom Jesus loved, and saith unto them, They have taken away the Lord out of the sepulchre, and we know not where they have laid him.

In every case, early Sunday morning HE was already risen.

That week Passover was on Wednesday. He was killed Wed. afternoon and taken down from the cross before the High Sabbath . (First Day of Unleavened Bread) which begins sundown on Passover. The Disciples Honored this Feast which was on a Thursday, the bought and prepared spices on Friday, and rested from Friday night sundown to Saturday night sundown. Jesus was in the grave 3 days and 3 nights.

Wed. night, Thur. night, Fri. night.

Thur. Fri, Sat.

He rose Saturday night, just before sundown. No one saw Him because they were home Honoring His Holy Sabbath. Right after the Sabbath, while it is yet dark, they ran to the grave and He was already gone.

In every Gospel He was already gone by early Sunday morning.

The religions of the land would have us believe He was killed on Friday and buried just before sundown Friday night. And that He rose before the sun came up on Sunday morning. That would mean He was in the grave only one day and two nights.

But this is only some of the evidence that exists for the Sabbath of the Lord. God knew what day He would raise from the dead before He created the 7 day week. He Blessed and Sanctified His Sabbath knowing it was the Lord's Day.

This explains why there isn't even one place in the entire Bible where Jesus told us, suggested, implied, commanded, or otherwise created a different "Sabbath of the Lord, or "Lord's Day". Nothing was ever said about it, ever.

Paul asked his brethren to count money and goods for the service of the saints on the first day, which of course he did. There are six days a week to count money and lay up supplies for the saints, but then 7th day is the Sabbath of the Lord.

I just don't think one sentence in the entire Bible, with a misplaced comma, changed the Lord's Day. But I know how powerful ancient religious traditions of men and rudiments of the world are.














Offline current occupant2

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Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
« Reply #277 on: Thu Jan 16, 2020 - 10:50:12 »
  There is no biblical support for the assumption that Sunday is the first day of the week, the assumption that Friday is the sixth day of the week or that Saturday is the seventh day of the week.

 In order to assume that those three assumptions are true a person must consult a pagan Roman/Catholic calendar that was not even in existence at the time Christ was on the earth.


Offline winsome

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Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
« Reply #278 on: Thu Jan 16, 2020 - 11:27:19 »
I appreciate what you are saying. I have heard of the religious doctrine which attempts to divide the Christ from God in order to promote ancient religious high days.
I'm not dividing Christ from. Christ IS God. But he is the Son not the Father.
As I have pointed out before, you seem to specialise in making straw men arguments by claiming someone said something they didn't or distorting what said.
 
The problem with this doctrine, in my view, are the scriptures which tell us plainly, that Jesus was the creator God of the Bible who became Flesh. That all that was created, which would include the 7 day week, was created by the Christ who became a man. "Was with God and was God", "I and My Father are one", "What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before". etc.


 I believe in one God, the Father almighty, maker of heaven and earth, of all things visible and invisible. (Nicene Creed)
I believe in God, the Father almighty, creator of heaven and earth. (Apostles Creed)
 
The orthodox belief is that God the Father is the creator, not the Son.



 
Col. 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

So to keep the post short I won't post all the scriptures which teach us that Jesus, before becoming a man, created the 7 day week and Blessed and Sanctified it. He created the swine, that He sent the evil spirits into, unclean. He created Passover and Pentecost and called them "Holy Convocations". As a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient unto death".

Is there another Lord?

Is. 45:5 I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:

6 That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else.

7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.


So given this scriptural evidence it would seem that when the Bible says "Lord of the Sabbath", or "Sabbath of the Lord", it is speaking to the Same Lord and the same Sabbath.

Rev. 1:10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet.

Given what the scriptures teach regarding this Lord, and His Creation, how can this be talking about some other Lord, or some other Lord's Day?

What if it's religious man who created the "New Lord's Day", and John was speaking about the same Day Jesus said HE is the Lord of?

Religious traditions are a powerful force in this world, and we are warned over and over about them.

These topics are good for men to discuss.
Is there more than one Lord. Well in a sense there is.
 Another early creed is the 'Athanasian Creed' which states
Thus the Father is Lord, the Son is Lord, the Holy Spirit is Lord. Yet there are not three lords, but one Lord.
Each person of the Trinity is individually both Lord and God.
 
John distinguishes between them by referring to the Father as Lord God Almighty. They are distinct from each other. For example: "And I saw no temple in the city, for its temple is the Lord God the Almighty and the Lamb." (Rev 21:22)


However all this is not really relevant to the issue at hand.
 The issue, as I see it, is that God created the sabbath for the Jews. He gave it to them in the desert - Ex 16:23 onwards.
It is not called the Lord's day but the sabbath.
It was given as the sign for the Mosaic Covenant. It was not given the anyone before that. 
By using the term "Lord's day" John is clearly signalling a different day to the 7th. If he meant the 7th he would have said the sabbath.
 
The sabbath was the sabbath of the Lord (YHWH).
The Lord's (kurios) day is the  day of the Lord Jesus.
 
Why would John be referring to sabbath? John was living and writing under the New Covenant.

The Old (Mosaic) Covenant, along with it#s laws and statutes was no more.
"In speaking of a new covenant he treats the first as obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away." (Heb 8:13)
 
As it says a few verses earlier, Christ "has obtained a ministry which is as much more excellent than the old as the covenant he mediates is better, since it is enacted on better promises."
 Why are you trying to live under an obsolete Covenant when  there is now a better one?
 
 
Fact 1. Scripture does not say God blessed every 7th day
Fact 2. Scripture does not record God telling anyone to keep a 7th day sabbath until Ex 16:23-30
Fact 3. Scripture does not record anyone keeping a 7th day sabbath until Ex 16:23-30
 
« Last Edit: Thu Jan 16, 2020 - 11:31:23 by winsome »

Offline GB

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Re: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.
« Reply #279 on: Thu Jan 16, 2020 - 17:04:20 »
 author=winsome link=topic=74624.msg1055154731#msg1055154731 date=1579195639]
Quote
I'm not dividing Christ from. Christ IS God. But he is the Son not the Father.
As I have pointed out before, you seem to specialise in making straw men arguments by claiming someone said something they didn't or distorting what said.
 

 I believe in one God, the Father almighty, maker of heaven and earth, of all things visible and invisible. (Nicene Creed)
I believe in God, the Father almighty, creator of heaven and earth. (Apostles Creed)
 
The orthodox belief is that God the Father is the creator, not the Son.


I understand what the Catholic religion is. I'm speaking to what the scriptures teach. What one religious man says or another religious group says, is of little consequence given all the warnings about religious men.

The orthodox belief in Jesus time was that God's Laws condemned Jesus to death for heresy. We are warned about religious men all over the place.

Col. 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.



Quote
  Is there more than one Lord. Well in a sense there is.
 Another early creed is the 'Athanasian Creed' which states
Thus the Father is Lord, the Son is Lord, the Holy Spirit is Lord. Yet there are not three lords, but one Lord.
Each person of the Trinity is individually both Lord and God.

You place a lot of trust in the religions of the land and their preachers.
 
Quote
John distinguishes between them by referring to the Father as Lord God Almighty. They are distinct from each other. For example: "And I saw no temple in the city, for its temple is the Lord God the Almighty and the Lamb." (Rev 21:22)

Yes, There is God the Father who sent God the Son to create the heavens and the earth, and all that dwells therein. This Christ, whose Spirit moved the Prophets, who met Abraham, gave His Life, risked His Immortality, in service of God the Father. This "Word of God" which became Flesh was killed and raised from the dead a spiritual Body. It is this Christ that led the Children of Israel out of Egypt. It is this Christ that sit's on the right hand of His Father.

Quote
However all this is not really relevant to the issue at hand.
 The issue, as I see it, is that God created the sabbath for the Jews. He gave it to them in the desert - Ex 16:23 onwards.
It is not called the Lord's day but the sabbath.

It is called "The Sabbath of the Lord". This same Christ calls it "MY Feasts". It was given to Abraham's Children, because God remembered HIS Covenant with Abraham after hearing the cries of Abraham's heirs.

Quote
It was given as the sign for the Mosaic Covenant. It was not given the anyone before that. 

You don't have enough information to teach that. There are many of God's Laws recognized and known before God had them written down. I have posted a lot of the evidence that God's Commandments, Statutes, and Laws existed before Exodus 16.

Because you are promoting certain religious traditions, you don't like to discuss them. That is a very common mindset for religious men as the Pharisees showed. But letting all the Light in is good for you, especially if it exposes darkness (falsehoods, deception)

Quote
By using the term "Lord's day" John is clearly signalling a different day to the 7th. If he meant the 7th he would have said the sabbath.

I disagree. You only believe this because of religious traditions of the Land. There is no place that teaches us Jesus created a "New Lord's Day". Not one prophesy, not one mention. Paul told one group to gather on the first day of the week to count money and set aside supplies for their brethren. These duties are for the work week, not God's Holy Sabbath. His Disciples Honored HIS Holy Sabbath to the point of not anointing Him with spices until His Sabbath was over.

Think about that for a minute. They walked with Him, ate with Him, observed the "Feast's of the Christ" with Him. And yet their respect for HIS Sabbath was so strong that they wouldn't even go to His Grave to anoint Him until after the "Sabbath of the Lord" was over.

Quote
The sabbath was the sabbath of the Lord (YHWH).
The Lord's (kurios) day is the  day of the Lord Jesus.


The Sabbath of the Lord, and the Lord's day are the same, just as Jesus said; "I and My Father are one".

Quote

Why would John be referring to sabbath? John was living and writing under the New Covenant.

John had God's Laws written in His Heart, as the Christ Promised in His New Covenant. The religious tradition of the land which teaches Jesus destroyed God's Sabbath and created a new one in the New covenant can not be supported by the Bible, just as the belief and popular religious doctrine that God's Laws didn't exist until He had them written down can not be supported by the scriptures.

Quote
The Old (Mosaic) Covenant, along with it#s laws and statutes was no more.
"In speaking of a new covenant he treats the first as obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away." (Heb 8:13)

What became obsolete was the Levitical Priesthood with it's duties which consisted of 2 things.

#1. How God's Laws were administered. Before "After those days", it was the exclusive duty of the Levitical Priesthood to give the people God's Laws. To the Jews, and the Non-Jews who sojourned with them.

Heb. 7:11 If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?

In the Christ's New Covenant, He Himself writes God's Laws on the hearts of the truly repentant. Not as it was in the Covenant He gave to Israel where only a Levite could be a Priest. Read it for yourself.

#2. How sin's are atoned for. Before "After those days" it was the exclusive Duty of the tribe of Levi to appoint Priest's who were to perform sacrificial "Works of the Law" for atonement of sins. In the Christ's New Covenant, HE, Himself atones for the sin's of the truly repentant.

It was the Priesthood that was changed, as it was promised in Jer. 31, and confirmed in Heb. 7.

12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.

13 For he of whom these things are spoken pertaineth to another tribe, of which no man gave attendance at the altar.

14 For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood.[/color]

For Jesus to become the High Priest, the Law regarding who could become a High Priest, by necessity, had to change. He was from Judah, and the "Priesthood" forbid Him from becoming a Priest. So the "LAW" changed, as it is written, to allow someone other than a Levite to hold the Priest's office.

It's in your own Bible, look at it yourself. You don't have to go find a preacher anymore. You have access to the Christ's Word's one on one.

The Biblical Truth is that the New Covenant of the Christ had nothing to do with His Sabbaths or Laws. Only the way in which they were administered, and the way transgression of them are atoned for.

Quote
As it says a few verses earlier, Christ "has obtained a ministry which is as much more excellent than the old as the covenant he mediates is better, since it is enacted on better promises."
 Why are you trying to live under an obsolete Covenant when  there is now a better one?

I'm living under the new Covenant. I don't take turtle doves to some Levite for the atonement of my sins. I don't have to find some Levite Priest to hear the Word of God.

Christ has obtained a ministry which is as much more excellent than the old as the covenant he mediates is better, since it is enacted on better promises

The scriptures, if you trust them over religious men, will expose the false religions of the land if you just trust the One that had them preserved. The New Covenant is not the destruction of God's Laws. You have been convinced by other voices, just as Eve was convinced, that God's Laws make you blind and only by rejecting them can you see clearly.

I ask you to read Heb. 7-10 and show me where there is any reference to anything other than the Levitical Priesthood and their priesthood duties Jesus took over.

It's right there just as He Promised in Jer. 31.

does it matter if you believe a lie about God? It did for the mainstream preachers of Christ's time.

Quote
Fact 1. Scripture does not say God blessed every 7th day

Fact, God's Laws, Commandments and Statutes existed before Ex. 16.

Quote
Fact 2. Scripture does not record God telling anyone to keep a 7th day sabbath until Ex 16:23-30

Fact, just because God didn't define His Laws in Genesis, doesn't mean they didn't exist.

Quote
Fact 3. Scripture does not record anyone keeping a 7th day sabbath until Ex 16:23-30

Fact, Scripture does not record anyone Loving God with all their heart before Exodus, Scripture does not define clean and unclean animals before Leviticus, and Scripture does not define adultery before Exodus, yet all these Laws existed and were known unto men, before Exodus.

In closing, consider these Word's of the Christ of the Bible;

Matt. 24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.

5 For many shall come in my name saying, I (Jesus) am Christ; and shall deceive many.

Jesus could have warned about anyone here. He could have warned about Islam, Jews, Atheists, or any of a number of religions of the world.

But He didn't. He Specifically warned of "Christians" deceiving people. A hard pill to swallow, but true all the same. I can't make you believe what is written, only God adds to His Church. But I would ask you to do the study of the Christ's New Covenant, outside the influence of any religious person. In your closet, in private, pray for understanding and study what the Christ teaches HIS New Covenant is. You will find, as I did, that it isn't what the Catholic Religion and all her many daughters are telling you.

Listen to the Christ of the Bible, trust His Word's and warnings. If you do, then you will understand why Jesus said;

34 And when he had called the people unto him with his disciples also, he said unto them, Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.