Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.

[Michael2012]

I just can't NOT SEE the utter hypocrisy in your religious preaching Michael.

Useless talk, AD HOMINEM.

Is this your way of escaping all my recent reply post to you which you seem to just pass over? But I'll be patient. Take time to find answers in defense of your belief, or better yet time to gather enough courage and humility to let go of wrong beliefs. Every reply post, every segment awaits your defense or acceptance. For the moment, I'd take silence or non response to mean just what it means, that is, STALLED. 

On one hand you absolutely refuse to separate the Levitical Priesthood Law from the Laws, Commandments and Statutes God gave to Abraham and then to the Children of Israel, preaching to the world that when the word LAW is used in Scriptures, it's means every Law God gave Moses, including the Levitical Priesthood.

The Levitical priesthood was established as part of the covenant between God and the children of Israel whose mediator was Moses.

But when the Christ says He is going to write "HIS LAWS" on the heart of His People, all the sudden your inclusiveness disappears. You then preach that this time, "LAW" doesn't mean Every Law God gave Moses. It doesn't mean all of God's Judgments. It only means whatever parts of God's Judgments align with your religious traditions.

Nothing of that sort GB. Read carefully what I've written in my posts, so that you don't mistake what I was meaning to say.

This what I learned from scriptures. I'll be just repeating myself here. But it seems I had to, for apparently you might not had read it or if you had, so that you can read it again and this time carefully and get what I'm saying.

The covenant that was replaced by a new covenant, is the covenant that God made with the children of Israel whose mediator was Moses, in the day when God led them out of Egypt, about which all are written by Moses in the book of the law, wherein is contained the law of Moses that was given by God in covenant, which includes the laws, commandments, statutes, ordinances, judgments, curses, blessings, and everything that concerns the Levitical priesthood.

The covenant that God made with the children of Israel whose mediator was Moses, in the day when God led them out of Egypt, together with all that constitutes it, were replaced by the new covenant of God with the house of Israel whose mediator is Jesus Christ, with every part that constitutes the former made new into something far better.

With the former covenant replaced, so then all that constitutes it, were replaced. The Levitical priesthood with all that pertains to it, was replaced by a better and more excellent priesthood, in the order of Melchisedec. The old sanctuary was replaced by the heavenly sanctuary.

What about the law, that which is written in letter in tablets of stone and in a book (Book of the Law) of the numerous and various commandments, statutes, ordinances, judgements, given in covenant by God to the children of Israel? This too, being of the former covenant was replaced.

That is not to mean that, the divine principles (laws) found and embodied in the law of Moses was no more or put into non existence. For while the written letter in tablets of stone and in a book, of the numerous and various commandments, statutes, ordinances, judgements, given in covenant by God to the children of Israel can be turned into ashes and dust, the divine principles (laws) embodied in them can never and will never be destroyed nor put into non existence. In the new covenant, these divine principles, or laws of God, will be written, in a new and better way and form, that is, in the minds and hearts of the people of God.

Have I not said to you in one of my post, the following?

Observe in this passage:

Hebrews 8: 10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

Here, the writer was not referring to the law, the written code, the precepts, contained in the book of the law. Rather, in saying laws, he refers to divine principles, such as of the principle of love, of righteousness, of mercy, of faith, of compassion, of kindness, of meekness, etc. These are the laws that the writer says God will write in the minds and hearts of His people spoken of in the new covenant.

Think about it. In the old covenant, such laws, were embodied in numerous and various precepts written in stone, in a book. In the new covenant, such laws God writes directly in the mind and heart of the man. In the former, such were to be taught by Levite priests to be known, but even were a failure. In the latter, such need not be taught by no one to be known, for they will already be in the mind and heart. In the former, they follow from what the book tells them what good they ought to do. In the latter, they will follow from what their mind and heart tells them what good they ought to do. In the former, they follow according to the letter. In the latter, they will follow according to the Spirit, for things such as faith, hope, love, among others, are of the spirit.

Some easily commit the mistake that what will be written by God in the minds and hearts of His people are laws similar to that which is familiar to most, if not all Christians and Jews, such as: Thou shall not kill, Thou shall not steal, thou shall not commit adultery, thou shall not eat unclean animals, he who breaks the Sabbath by doing work shall be put to death....etc. which are all but commandments whereby the man which doeth those things shall live by them, and are all but godly instructions, so to speak, on what evil ought not to be done and what good ought to be done. Why is that?   

GB, your statements:

1. the "Book of the Law" and what is contained therein, did not change, nor has it become obsolete. It is written on the hearts of HIS People, the truly repentant.

2. Yes, now the Christ's writes the contents of the "book of the law" on the hearts of the truly repentant.

3. How can I deny the Book of the Law when it is written on my mind?

These statements of yours, are they evidence that you commit the mistake I just discussed in the paragraph immediately above or not? In your case then, in your mind are written the commandments, statutes, ordinances, judgments, curses, blessings, that were contained in the book of the law. That's in fact good. For if you have all those in memory, that would really be a good thing. But that does not mean that those are which that God says He will put and write in the minds and heart of His people. If that was what will be written, I wonder if all Christians, genuine as they are, have all those in their mind, that they can actually recite and tell people every one of the precepts found in the book of the law, without the book. If there is none, then you are the first to claim that, which would also mean that you are the only one in whom God had written the precepts contained in book of the law in your mind. Well that says a lot about your doctrine and belief.

In other words, when God's Judgments align with your religious tradition, God has written it on your heart, but when God's Judgment doesn't align with your religious tradition, it has grown old and became obsolete.

Or when the word LAW is used to describe what Abraham obeyed, all the sudden it doesn't mean "ALL" of God's Judgments and Laws God gave to Moses. Only whatever judgments you agree with.

Not so GB. Have you not understood what I told you what I believe in one of the segments in my Reply #381?

What God wrote in my mind and my heart are His laws: the divine principles of faith, hope, love, of righteousness, of mercy, of compassion, of kindness, of meekness, among others.

You can not see this, even as you couldn't see the Covenant God made with Levi on behalf of the Children of Israel, nor do you understand the implication of this truth to this day.

Yes, apparently, as it had now become obviously clear, we have a different understanding of what the old covenant is and what the new covenant is. 

Out of the same mouth you preach God has written His Laws, Given to Moses, on your heart,  and in the next sentence, " the purpose for the book of the law had come to its end".

Did I? If I did, though I know no such occasion that I did, then I perhaps made an error there or perhaps I was not clear enough. Sorry, if that were the case.   

Though I do remember saying "the purpose for the book of the law had come to its end". And so that, you'll see clearly regarding that, let me expound on that here.

There and about the time of Moses, when the children of Israel were fruitful, and increased abundantly, and multiplied, God, who was in the process of bringing about His promise to Abraham, remembered His covenant with him, when the Israelites groaned because of their difficult labor, and they cried out, and their cry for help because of the bondage/slavery came unto God. God would now bring them out of their bondage/slavery in Egypt. He will take them as His own people, and will be their God, and they will know Him as their Lord their God, who brought them out from under the yoke of the Egyptians, and He will bring them to the land He swore to give to Abraham, to Isaac and to Jacob as a possession. In bringing this about, God made a covenant with them. That if they obey God fully and keep His covenant, then out of all nations they will be His treasured possession, and will be for Him, a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.

Let's consider at this point, God's making them of a holy nation. There is the giving them of a land as their possession, where they will be established as a nation. But that will not be all there is in making them to be a holy nation. They were evidently been found to be a sinful people, unruly and understandably unguided because of no less than 400 year long slavery and oppression in Egypt, by a pagan people and culture. With that, God gave them His commandments and laws, judgments, and many precepts. These precepts, He caused Moses put in writing in a book, the book of the law. All these precepts then is what became to be the law for them, as a nation. The keeping and observance of the law is what would suppose to make them into a holy nation.

Let's consider now God's making them for Him, a kingdom of priests. Included in the precepts He gave them, written in the book of the law, God had established a formal priesthood, in the order of Aaron, the Levitical priesthood. The keeping and observance of this is what would suppose to make them for Him a kingdom of priests.

To make the long discussion short, the book of the law was for those purposes.

However, there was fault with the people, the priests and the common Jews alike. And because of that, God promised to make a new covenant to replace the then covenant. This new covenant, needless to point out, among others, was made, to deal with the fault, and bring about God's purpose for Israel, in view of fulfilling God's promise to Abraham. This put the former covenant to end, which consequently ended the purpose of the book of the law or the law. Ended, in that, in the new covenant, God had given them (not only to them but to the whole world) the realities themselves for which the law is only a shadow of, that is, His Son Jesus Christ.

Jesus Christ is the Way, the Truth, and the Life.       

So that now, today, all those who are in Christ, are a chosen generation under the new covenant, a royal priesthood, an holy nation.

And when I show you the Authors definition of the "LAW" that was changed by necessity, you have refused, in every post, to even acknowledge them.

Heb. 7:12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.

13 For he of whom these things are spoken pertaineth to another tribe, of which no man gave attendance at the altar.

14 For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood.

Completely rejecting the very definition of the "LAW" that was Changed, and the detailed explanation as to why is was changed.

And I have shown you in my Reply#381, what "The law" mentioned in Hebrews 7:12 is. It is the same "the law" mentioned in verse 11. It does not refer to any single precept or two. It refers to "the law", the whole of what is in the book of the law, collectively referred to the law or the law of Moses. It does not refer to a specific precept such as that you make of it to be specifically referring to that which is read in verse 13. 

I only replied to you because I know there is only one spirit in this world, that has from the very beginning with Eve, tried to convince as many people as possible that  "the purpose for the book of the law had come to its end". I know you have been taken captive by it, even though you don't.

I can only show you these things, I can't make you see them.

Thank you for your concern GB, but no thanks, I'd go with what the scriptures teach me concerning that.

[Michael2012]

Subject Topic: Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.

Worshipping God is good, is it not? So, what is the problem with worshipping God on a Sunday? Is it a sin to do so? And for that matter, would it be a sin worshipping God on any other day? If not, what is the real issue then being brought forth in the subject topic?

It seems to me, it's to promote the Saturday worship. In that case, will they present their case so that we may examine it?

Of course, I'm not referring to the Jews, but those who believe in the old and new testament scriptures to be the words of God.

[GB]

 author=Michael2012 link=topic=74624.msg1055155296#msg1055155296 date=1580120443]

It is useless to continue as we are here for two completely different reasons. You spend your entire time defending your own religious lifestyle, while I seek to know what the scriptures are really teaching.

You refuse to accept that God made a Covenant with Levi on behalf of the Children of Israel. And that this Priesthood had Laws that were separate from the Children of Israel all together. Priesthood Laws which never existed before Mt. Sinai. A Law that was "ADDED" 430 years after Abraham obeyed God's Laws, Judgments, Statutes, Ways and definition of Justice.

You also refuse to accept the actual Word's of the Christ who promises a New Covenant in which only the Priesthood duties were mentioned. That is, the manner in which God's Laws, Judgments, Statutes, Ways and definition of Justice, etc., are administered, and the way transgression of these Laws were atoned for.

I can't make you accept what is written any more than Jesus could make the Mainstream Preachers of His time accept what was written.

And I have shown you in my Reply#381, what "The law" mentioned in Hebrews 7:12 is. It is the same "the law" mentioned in verse 11. It does not refer to any single precept or two. It refers to "the law", the whole of what is in the book of the law, collectively referred to the law or the law of Moses. It does not refer to a specific precept such as that you make of it to be specifically referring to that which is read in verse 13.

And when I show you the Authors definition of the "LAW" that was changed by necessity, you have refused, in every post, to even acknowledge them.

Heb. 7:12 For the priesthood ( Covenant with Levi)) being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law. (Covenant with Levi)

13 For he of whom these things are spoken pertaineth to another tribe, of which no man gave attendance at the altar.

14 For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood.

The Law regarding who could become a High Priest was part of the Covenant God made with Levi. This is the Law that "changed", not the 2 greatest commandments and all that hangs on them.

For you to preach that this sentence, changed God's ten commandments, judgments, statutes, Laws and definition of Holy, unholy, clean and unclean, is foolishness and can not be supported with scriptures. Yet, this is exactly what you are trying to convince others this sentence means.

Completely rejecting the very definition of the "LAW" that was Changed, and the detailed explanation as to why is was changed.

Thank you for your concern GB, but no thanks, I'd go with what the scriptures teach me concerning that.

It's not the Scriptures which teach you the purpose of the Book of the Law has come to an end, or that when the Priesthood changed, God's entire Laws structure was replaced. Or that religious men are free to judge God's Law to determine which ones are worthy of their honor, and which ones are not.

1 Pet. 1:13 Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ;

14 As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance:

15 But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation;

16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.

17 And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:

The purpose of God's Law is to be Holy even as He was Holy. It is my hope that you might consider HIS Word's, and HIS warnings, and "come out" of the religions of the land while you still can.

[Michael2012]

It is useless to continue as we are here for two completely different reasons. You spend your entire time defending your own religious lifestyle, while I seek to know what the scriptures are really teaching.

You refuse to accept that God made a Covenant with Levi on behalf of the Children of Israel. And that this Priesthood had Laws that were separate from the Children of Israel all together. Priesthood Laws which never existed before Mt. Sinai. A Law that was "ADDED" 430 years after Abraham obeyed God's Laws, Judgments, Statutes, Ways and definition of Justice.

You also refuse to accept the actual Word's of the Christ who promises a New Covenant in which only the Priesthood duties were mentioned. That is, the manner in which God's Laws, Judgments, Statutes, Ways and definition of Justice, etc., are administered, and the way transgression of these Laws were atoned for.

I can't make you accept what is written any more than Jesus could make the Mainstream Preachers of His time accept what was written.

 

And when I show you the Authors definition of the "LAW" that was changed by necessity, you have refused, in every post, to even acknowledge them.

Heb. 7:12 For the priesthood ( Covenant with Levi)) being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law. (Covenant with Levi)

13 For he of whom these things are spoken pertaineth to another tribe, of which no man gave attendance at the altar.

14 For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood.

The Law regarding who could become a High Priest was part of the Covenant God made with Levi. This is the Law that "changed", not the 2 greatest commandments and all that hangs on them.

For you to preach that this sentence, changed God's ten commandments, judgments, statutes, Laws and definition of Holy, unholy, clean and unclean, is foolishness and can not be supported with scriptures. Yet, this is exactly what you are trying to convince others this sentence means.

Completely rejecting the very definition of the "LAW" that was Changed, and the detailed explanation as to why is was changed.

It's not the Scriptures which teach you the purpose of the Book of the Law has come to an end, or that when the Priesthood changed, God's entire Laws structure was replaced. Or that religious men are free to judge God's Law to determine which ones are worthy of their honor, and which ones are not.

1 Pet. 1:13 Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ;

14 As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance:

15 But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation;

16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.

17 And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:

The purpose of God's Law is to be Holy even as He was Holy. It is my hope that you might consider HIS Word's, and HIS warnings, and "come out" of the religions of the land while you still can.

Well, the excuse that I don't accept what you say and just expressing your disagreement to what I say, is what I get out of this post.

And with my several last posts which you ignored or skipped over, I think this is your way of saying that you can no longer defend your teachings and doctrines. I see now why you just keep repeating and repeating the same things you said over and over again. I understand.

[GB]

 author=Michael2012 link=topic=74624.msg1055155314#msg1055155314 date=1580150789]

Well, the excuse that I don't accept what you say and just expressing your disagreement to what I say, is what I get out of this post.

And with my several last posts which you ignored or skipped over, I think this is your way of saying that you can no longer defend your teachings and doctrines. I see now why you just keep repeating and repeating the same things you said over and over again. I understand.

You also thought with all your heart that I was a liar and deceiver for telling you the truth about God. You still do as your post suggests.

Sorry if I don't throw my Bible away because of what you "think". If I were to follow your religion, and listen to you, I would have rejected a Major Truth about God and would been preaching the same falsehood you were preaching.

 What spirit led you to try to convince me that this Truth didn't exist? What spirit led me to show you the truth?

I know you don't understand Michael, I know you don't have a clue. But not because I haven't made a valiant effort to reason with you.

[Michael2012]

You also thought with all your heart that I was a liar and deceiver for telling you the truth about God. You still do as your post suggests.

Sorry if I don't throw my Bible away because of what you "think". If I were to follow your religion, and listen to you, I would have rejected a Major Truth about God and would been preaching the same falsehood you were preaching.

 What spirit led you to try to convince me that this Truth didn't exist? What spirit led me to show you the truth?

I know you don't understand Michael, I know you don't have a clue. But not because I haven't made a valiant effort to reason with you.

I can see the situation you got yourself into. I understand.

[Amo]

The text of Constantine's Sunday Law of 321 A.D. is :

"One the venerable day of the Sun let the magistrates and people residing in cities rest, and let all workshops be closed. In the country however persons engaged in agriculture may freely and lawfully continue their pursuits because it often happens that another day is not suitable for gain-sowing or vine planting; lest by neglecting the proper moment for such operations the bounty of heaven should be lost. (Given the 7th day of March, Crispus and Constantinebeing consuls each of them the second time." Codex Justinianus, lib. 3, tit. 12, 3; translated in History of the Christian Church, Philip Schaff, D.D., (7-vol.ed.) Vol. III, p.380. New York, 1884

Synod of Laodicea (4th Century)

Canon 29

Christians must not judaize by resting on the Sabbath, but must work on that day, rather honouring the Lord's Day; and, if they can, resting then as Christians. But if any shall be found to be judaizers, let them be anathema from Christ.

Regardless of the non stop arguments and hoopla Sunday keepers bring to the table, the day they now observe was established through civil legislation of Emperors and Kings. These along with many a religious leader demanded its observance and made laws all throughout history to enforce the same upon subjects and church members. They not only demanded its observance, but many also condemned any that would continue to keep the biblical sabbath. They simply replaced one day for another according to their own usurped authority and continued even to this day forcing their day upon millions through civil legislation. They come here and argue with those who keep God's sabbath by faith in His word and accuse them of being legalists, while ignoring that their own are the one's who have been forcing a day of worship upon people during most of this new covenant era.

Wake up people, take your fight to those who are actually forcing Sunday sacredness upon all through civil legislation. If you were really so concerned about anyone demanding a day of worship during this new covenant era, then you would be addressing those who actually do, and back up this belief with actual civil legislation. You do not, because this is not really the issue you have with a sabbath day during this new covenant. You are simply trying to win an argument and defend your beliefs, you are not addressing present truth. If this were the case, you would address the civil legislation I speak of, and attack it as wrong as much if not more than you attack those who call for observing God's sabbath by faith alone. Please do prove me wrong and direct me to the internet sites or otherwise where you have been addressing the wrongs of all these Sunday keepers forcing their day upon all that they can.

[Texas Conservative]

Jesus is my sabbath rest.  Hebrews 4:9

You will not judge me by my sabbath observance or when I gather with the saints to worship Christ.

Colossians 2

13 When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, 14 having canceled the charge of our legal indebtedness, which stood against us and condemned us; he has taken it away, nailing it to the cross. 15 And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross.

16 Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. 17 These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ.

[GB]

Jesus is my sabbath rest.  Hebrews 4:9

You will not judge me by my sabbath observance or when I gather with the saints to worship Christ.

Your definition of Holy or clean, or your sabbath has little to do with the Scripture you use. The Mainstream preachers of Christ's time also had a sabbath that wasn't Gods, and Jesus did judge them. The scriptures you quoted was speaking to God's Sabbaths, not yours or the Jews who despised God's Sabbath so much they created their own.

The Scriptures you referenced said not to let "MEN" judge you for obeying God and His definition of Holy and Clean. He isn't saying you can create whatever High Day you choose and place God's name on it.

You might want to read those verse again.

[Texas Conservative]

Jesus is my sabbath rest.  Hebrews 4:9

You will not judge me by my sabbath observance or when I gather with the saints to worship Christ.

Your definition of Holy or clean, or your sabbath has little to do with the Scripture you use. The Mainstream preachers of Christ's time also had a sabbath that wasn't Gods, and Jesus did judge them. The scriptures you quoted was speaking to God's Sabbaths, not yours or the Jews who despised God's Sabbath so much they created their own.

The Scriptures you referenced said not to let "MEN" judge you for obeying God and His definition of Holy and Clean. He isn't saying you can create whatever High Day you choose and place God's name on it.

You might want to read those verse again.

You are wrong ya foolish Galatian!

[Amo]

Jesus is my sabbath rest.  Hebrews 4:9

You will not judge me by my sabbath observance or when I gather with the saints to worship Christ.

Colossians 2

13 When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, 14 having canceled the charge of our legal indebtedness, which stood against us and condemned us; he has taken it away, nailing it to the cross. 15 And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross.

16 Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. 17 These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ.

I will judge Sunday keepers by their fruits. One of their habitual fruits, is seeking civil legislation to force their chosen sacred day upon all. While claiming no one should judge them for the day they have chosen, they judge for all, that all must observe their day through the force of civil legislation. Again, these actions deny the validity of your above statement. If none should be judged by the day of worship they have chosen, then why do some judge that all need submit to the day they have chosen whether they agree or not. These are not the actions of people who actually believe no one should be judged according to their chosen day of worship.

This is of course apart from the fact that the scriptures you quoted are not referring to God's weekly seventh day Sabbath, or any of God's law being done away with. It is the penalty for breaking the law that Christ has freed us from, not the authority of it according to a false gospel.

Col 2:6  As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him: 7 Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving. 8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. 9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. 10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power: 11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: 12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. 13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; 14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; 15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it. 16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: 17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ. 18 Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind, 19 And not holding the Head, from which all the body by joints and bands having nourishment ministered, and knit together, increaseth with the increase of God. 20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances, 21 (Touch not; taste not; handle not; 22 Which all are to perish with the using;) after the commandments and doctrines of men? 23 Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body; not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh.

Are you saying the commandments of God or His sabbath are among the vain philosophies, deceits, traditions, and rudiments of this world being addressed in the above scriptures? That the commandments He spoke audibly to Israel and wrote with His own hand are rudiments of this world according to the commandments and doctrines of men? God's ten commandments do not address meats, or drink, or new moons. So why would you associate the holy days or sabbaths mentioned in connection with the same, with the ten commandments which speaks of no such things, instead of the other laws written by the hand of the man Moses which does associate sabbaths with all of these things as well? Is it not because you wish these verses to be addressing God's seventh day sabbath, and not because they actually do? If or when context must be trashed to arrive at the meaning one has chosen for certain scriptures, they have most likely chosen the wrong meaning for whatever reason or purpose. So be it.

[beam]

16 Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. 17 These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ.

I understand that Paul was writing to the Galatians.  If this is true then those who believe Paul is writing that to Christians who are judging those who observe special food laws, festivals, new moons and or worship on the seventh day, have it completely wrong.

Of course Paul was referring to the Jews that had infiltrated the Galatian church and persuaded the Galatians to start keeping Mosaic laws.  Paul was writing that they should not allow the Jews to judge them for not observing those archaic rules.
Jesus is the reality, not some laws from the defunct Torah.  See Gal 3:19 and be sure to read Gal 4 where Paul sums up his pleading with those Galatians.  8 Formerly, when you did not know God, you were slaves to those who by nature are not gods. 9 But now that you know God – or rather are known by God – how is it that you are turning back to those weak and miserable forces[d]? Do you wish to be enslaved by them all over again? 10 You are observing special days and months and seasons and years! 11 I fear for you, that somehow I have wasted my efforts on you.

Oh you otherwise great people who have allowed others to persuade you to keep the defunct Sabbath of Israel only, eat only certain foods, keep festivals that were meant only for Israel and pay a tithe..........

[Michael2012]

Col 2:6  As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him: 7 Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving. 8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. 9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. 10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power: 11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: 12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. 13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; 14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; 15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it. 16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: 17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ. 18 Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind, 19 And not holding the Head, from which all the body by joints and bands having nourishment ministered, and knit together, increaseth with the increase of God. 20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances, 21 (Touch not; taste not; handle not; 22 Which all are to perish with the using;) after the commandments and doctrines of men? 23 Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body; not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh.

Are you saying the commandments of God or His sabbath are among the vain philosophies, deceits, traditions, and rudiments of this world being addressed in the above scriptures? That the commandments He spoke audibly to Israel and wrote with His own hand are rudiments of this world according to the commandments and doctrines of men? God's ten commandments do not address meats, or drink, or new moons. So why would you associate the holy days or sabbaths mentioned in connection with the same, with the ten commandments which speaks of no such things, instead of the other laws written by the hand of the man Moses which does associate sabbaths with all of these things as well? Is it not because you wish these verses to be addressing God's seventh day sabbath, and not because they actually do? If or when context must be trashed to arrive at the meaning one has chosen for certain scriptures, they have most likely chosen the wrong meaning for whatever reason or purpose. So be it.

Consider verse 17.

Regarding that passage in Colossians 2, clearly those mentioned in verse 16 which has to do with eating, drinking, of holy days, new moons and even sabbath days are said in verse 17 to be a shadow of things to come, the body of which is of Christ. If a shadow is of the body of Christ, I am sure there is no debate that they cannot be spoken of as something bad or evil.

If such things spoken of in verse 16 foreshadows Christ and are not bad or evil, but are good, do they refer to traditions of men and rudiments of the world or those found written in the book of the Law of God?

Can traditions of men and rudiments of the world be said to be a shadow of things to come, the body of which is of Christ?

[GB]

I understand that Paul was writing to the Galatians.  If this is true then those who believe Paul is writing that to Christians who are judging those who observe special food laws, festivals, new moons and or worship on the seventh day, have it completely wrong.

Of course Paul was referring to the Jews that had infiltrated the Galatian church and persuaded the Galatians to start keeping Mosaic laws.  Paul was writing that they should not allow the Jews to judge them for not observing those archaic rules.
Jesus is the reality, not some laws from the defunct Torah.  See Gal 3:19 and be sure to read Gal 4 where Paul sums up his pleading with those Galatians.  8 Formerly, when you did not know God, you were slaves to those who by nature are not gods. 9 But now that you know God – or rather are known by God – how is it that you are turning back to those weak and miserable forces[d]? Do you wish to be enslaved by them all over again? 10 You are observing special days and months and seasons and years! 11 I fear for you, that somehow I have wasted my efforts on you.

Oh you otherwise great people who have allowed others to persuade you to keep the defunct Sabbath of Israel only, eat only certain foods, keep festivals that were meant only for Israel and pay a tithe..........

I'm always fascinated by religious men who use these words of Paul to justify their rejection of God' Judgments.

Gal. 4:8 Howbeit then, when ye knew not God, ye did service unto them which by nature are no gods.

9 But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?

10 Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years.

How is it men, who didn't even know God, who were doing service to them who were not God, following God's Passover, His Holy Days and His Sabbaths??

I don't think you spent much time thinking about your preaching here.

It seems you are preaching that these men were following those awful, Beggarly Elements of God, that is, His wicked Passover, and HIS unrighteous judgment of the 7th Day, before they even knew Him. And then Paul convinced them to reject these Laws of God they followed before they knew Him. But now, after that they know Him, they were "Turning again" to those useless, evil Beggarly Elements of God they followed before they knew God.

It would be almost a parity, a SNL skit, if it were not that you actually believe the teaching.

The implication here is that only the God of Abraham created religious High Days. That there were no pagan religions, no Pagan religious observances in the nations around them. That only God has " days, and months, and times, and years", and these sinners were following HIS JUDGMENTS, in which they needed to repent from.

1 Cor. 5:6 Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump?

7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:

8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.

So then you must also believe here that Paul is contradicting himself, telling us to keep the "Beggarly Elements" we followed before we even knew God.

I know you can't see this Beam, my hope is that you might consider that it isn't God's Judgments which are "Beggarly Elements". But the religious doctrines and traditions of the lands around us the Children of Disobedience follow before they repent and turn to God.

After we know God, or are known by God, Paul tells us to "Keep the Feast". Not the High Days of the religions which surround us, but the Righteous, Holy, and perfect Judgments of God.

At least the Paul of the bible does.


 

[Amo]

Consider verse 17.

Regarding that passage in Colossians 2, clearly those mentioned in verse 16 which has to do with eating, drinking, of holy days, new moons and even sabbath days are said in verse 17 to be a shadow of things to come, the body of which is of Christ. If a shadow is of the body of Christ, I am sure there is no debate that they cannot be spoken of as something bad or evil.

If such things spoken of in verse 16 foreshadows Christ and are not bad or evil, but are good, do they refer to traditions of men and rudiments of the world or those found written in the book of the Law of God?

Can traditions of men and rudiments of the world be said to be a shadow of things to come, the body of which is of Christ?

They were given to Israel by the hand of Moses exactly because they were meant to pass away when the shadow was replaced by the real. The shadows never saved anyone but by faith in the reality they pointed to. The instructions written by the hand of Moses, even the sacrifices themsleves cleansed and saved no one. They were rudiments,(basics and traditions) in and of this world, meant to point all to Christ the real substance of salvation, who was not of this world but became of this world for the salvation of the world. Therefore do we no longer keep many of the laws of Moses regarding the temple and Israel and other things which no longer even exist. They were employed by God from the things of this world, in order to point to Him that was not of this world, but became of this world unto salvation.

So yes, many of the laws, statutes, and ordinances given to Moses by God to give to Israel were of the rudiments of traditions of this world, employed in teaching and instruction concerning that which was not of this world. The ten commandments are not in this category being spoken by the mouth of God to Israel, and written with His own finger for them twice. God would not allow a man to author or give them to Israel and or the world. They are not of this world, and cannot in any manner be said to be of the rudiments, traditions, or anything else of this world. This is a separation and distinction which God Himself established by personally descending upon the mountain and speaking His commandments to humanity, and then writing them with His own finger in tablets of stone twice. He did not use any of the rudiments of this world, or traditions, laws, statutes, commandments, or what have you written by the hand of any man or supported by representations of anything from or of this world in establishing His ten commandments. They are directly from Him to humanity period. They were and are no shadow, but rather real substance of God, even as Jesus Christ Himself who was not of this world but came to this world exactly to establish that substance within fallen humanities heart.

Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: 4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. 8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. 9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. 10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

The law of God which is not of this world, was weak through our flesh which could not keep it. Therefore did God come to humanity and partake of fallen human flesh in Christ Jesus, who was not of this world. That He might conquer sin and death through the law, by conquering them in our human flesh through perfect obedience to the law of God in the same. This that the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in all who choose to follow their Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. That they might be born again sons and daughters of God, no longer of this fallen world but new creatures in Christ Jesus and citizens of the kingdom of heaven this side of it. They are in the world, but are no longer of the world. No longer living carnally of this world, but spiritually in Christ Jesus who imparts His Holy Spirit to His faithful.

Joh 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was. 6 I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word. 7 Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee. 8 For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me. 9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine. 10 And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them. 11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are. 12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled. 13 And now come I to thee; and these things I speak in the world, that they might have my joy fulfilled in themselves. 14 I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. 15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil. 16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. 17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.

Heb 10:1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect. 2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins. 3 But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year. 4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins. 5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me: 6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure. 7 Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God. 8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law; 9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second. 10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. 11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins: 12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God; 13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool. 14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified. 15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before, 16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them; 17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more. 18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.

The types and shadows of the old covenant concerning laws, statutes, commandments, sacrifices, and rituals, written by the hand of Moses were meant to pass away at the very least in their literal form, though many still have spiritual significance. They were replaced by God in the flesh who lived, died, and was resurrected for our salvation. This that the things of God including His law, might be written in our hearts and lived in our lives by the power of that Holy Christ who was and is God in the flesh unto salvation for all who will profess and live in harmony with Him and His teachings. He has taken away the first things of this earth which only pointed to Him, and established the second which is the real substance of His literal presence as God in our lives. Praise His holy and wonderful name.

[Michael2012]

They were given to Israel by the hand of Moses exactly because they were meant to pass away when the shadow was replaced by the real. The shadows never saved anyone but by faith in the reality they pointed to. The instructions written by the hand of Moses, even the sacrifices themsleves cleansed and saved no one. They were rudiments,(basics and traditions) in and of this world, meant to point all to Christ the real substance of salvation, who was not of this world but became of this world for the salvation of the world. Therefore do we no longer keep many of the laws of Moses regarding the temple and Israel and other things which no longer even exist. They were employed by God from the things of this world, in order to point to Him that was not of this world, but became of this world unto salvation.

So yes, many of the laws, statutes, and ordinances given to Moses by God to give to Israel were of the rudiments of traditions of this world, employed in teaching and instruction concerning that which was not of this world. The ten commandments are not in this category being spoken by the mouth of God to Israel, and written with His own finger for them twice. God would not allow a man to author or give them to Israel and or the world. They are not of this world, and cannot in any manner be said to be of the rudiments, traditions, or anything else of this world. This is a separation and distinction which God Himself established by personally descending upon the mountain and speaking His commandments to humanity, and then writing them with His own finger in tablets of stone twice. He did not use any of the rudiments of this world, or traditions, laws, statutes, commandments, or what have you written by the hand of any man or supported by representations of anything from or of this world in establishing His ten commandments. They are directly from Him to humanity period. They were and are no shadow, but rather real substance of God, even as Jesus Christ Himself who was not of this world but came to this world exactly to establish that substance within fallen humanities heart.

Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: 4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. 8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. 9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. 10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

The law of God which is not of this world, was weak through our flesh which could not keep it. Therefore did God come to humanity and partake of fallen human flesh in Christ Jesus, who was not of this world. That He might conquer sin and death through the law, by conquering them in our human flesh through perfect obedience to the law of God in the same. This that the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in all who choose to follow their Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. That they might be born again sons and daughters of God, no longer of this fallen world but new creatures in Christ Jesus and citizens of the kingdom of heaven this side of it. They are in the world, but are no longer of the world. No longer living carnally of this world, but spiritually in Christ Jesus who imparts His Holy Spirit to His faithful.

Joh 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was. 6 I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word. 7 Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee. 8 For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me. 9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine. 10 And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them. 11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are. 12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled. 13 And now come I to thee; and these things I speak in the world, that they might have my joy fulfilled in themselves. 14 I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. 15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil. 16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. 17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.

Heb 10:1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect. 2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins. 3 But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year. 4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins. 5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me: 6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure. 7 Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God. 8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law; 9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second. 10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. 11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins: 12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God; 13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool. 14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified. 15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before, 16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them; 17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more. 18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.

The types and shadows of the old covenant concerning laws, statutes, commandments, sacrifices, and rituals, written by the hand of Moses were meant to pass away at the very least in their literal form, though many still have spiritual significance. They were replaced by God in the flesh who lived, died, and was resurrected for our salvation. This that the things of God including His law, might be written in our hearts and lived in our lives by the power of that Holy Christ who was and is God in the flesh unto salvation for all who will profess and live in harmony with Him and His teachings. He has taken away the first things of this earth which only pointed to Him, and established the second which is the real substance of His literal presence as God in our lives. Praise His holy and wonderful name.

So you are saying that those spoken of in Col. 2:16, those things involving meat, drink, holyday, new moon, and the sabbath days, refers to those things which were written by the hand of Moses, found in the book of the Law, right?

So what of the sabbath days spoken there? Are they any different from the sabbath day spoken in the ten commandments?

You also take the many of the laws, statutes, and ordinances given to Moses by God to give to Israel as were of the rudiments of traditions of this world, employed in teaching and instruction concerning that which was not of this world. That would make of those which concerns the sabbath day as being such then, right? 

Now, concerning the ten commandments, you said "The ten commandments are not in this category being spoken by the mouth of God to Israel, and written with His own finger for them twice. God would not allow a man to author or give them to Israel and or the world. They are not of this world, and cannot in any manner be said to be of the rudiments, traditions, or anything else of this world."

The ten commandments may have been written by God in stone tablets, and those written by Moses' hand, just the same were not from Moses, but from God. They, just as the ten commandments, came from God and are God's ordinances and judgments, and not Moses'. They were not authored by Moses.

Exodus 21:1 Now these are the judgments which thou shalt set before them.

By the way Amo, besides the ten commandments, what are the laws, statutes, ordinances, and judgments given to Moses by God that were and are no shadow and so remains and not done away with?

[beam]

I'm always fascinated by religious men who use these words of Paul to justify their rejection of God' Judgments.

I am fascinated by you twisted understanding of scripture.

Gal. 4:8 Howbeit then, when ye knew not God, ye did service unto them which by nature are no gods.

9 But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?

10 Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years.

How is it men, who didn't even know God, who were doing service to them who were not God, following God's Passover, His Holy Days and His Sabbaths??

I don't think you spent much time thinking about your preaching here.

It seems you are preaching that these men were following those awful, Beggarly Elements of God, that is, His wicked Passover, and HIS unrighteous judgment of the 7th Day, before they even knew Him. And then Paul convinced them to reject these Laws of God they followed before they knew Him. But now, after that they know Him, they were "Turning again" to those useless, evil Beggarly Elements of God they followed before they knew God.

It would be almost a parity, a SNL skit, if it were not that you actually believe the teaching.

I would like to go over Gal 4 using the NIV
8 Formerly, when you did not know God, you were slaves to those who by nature are not gods. 9 But now that you know God – or rather are known by God – how is it that you are turning back to those weak and miserable forces? Do you wish to be enslaved by them all over again? 10 You are observing special days and months and seasons and years! 11 I fear for you, that somehow I have wasted my efforts on you.

Before Paul introduced the Galatians to God the Galatians had no idea who God is.  They were slaves to those who were not gods.  Then Paul asks them why they are returning to those weak and miserable forces.  Lets be clear here, it was not the Judaizers who were keeping the Galatians from knowing the true God before Paul came and introduced them to Him.  The Judaizers knew the true God and would at least made God known to the Galatians.  After they were converted to Christianity it was the Judaizers who came and convinced them to observe special days and months and seasons and years.  It was the Jews that observed those events.  These facts put the story in its proper prospectus. You think I spent not enough time thinking about my preaching here.  I know you have not spent enough time discerning the real truth.  I am not stupid concerning scripture.  What is stupid is not realizing we all do not know it all.

The implication here is that only the God of Abraham created religious High Days. That there were no pagan religions, no Pagan religious observances in the nations around them. That only God has " days, and months, and times, and years", and these sinners were following HIS JUDGMENTS, in which they needed to repent from.

If you could prove that as fact you might have a case.  Until then we know the Judaizers were were keeping days months and years and that is what they were teaching the Galatians.

I know you can't see this Beam, my hope is that you might consider that it isn't God's Judgments which are "Beggarly Elements". But the religious doctrines and traditions of the lands around us the Children of Disobedience follow before they repent and turn to God.

You better believe I cannot see it because it is not there.  Read Eph 2:15, Gal 3:19 and 2Cor 3:6-11.  We are not under the law and to teach that we are is heresy.

After we know God, or are known by God, Paul tells us to "Keep the Feast". Not the High Days of the religions which surround us, but the Righteous, Holy, and perfect Judgments of God.

What feast?  One thing for sure he never told us to observe Sabbath, new moon or feast days.

At least the Paul of the bible does.

Did

[RB]

I'm always fascinated by religious men who use these words of Paul to justify their rejection of God' Judgments.

I "SEE" why you are overly infatuated with your understanding!

Gal. 4:8 Howbeit then, when ye knew not God, ye did service unto them which by nature are no gods. 9 But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage? 10 Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years.

How is it men, who didn't even know God, who were doing service to them who were not God, following God's Passover, His Holy Days and His Sabbaths??

GB, you cannot even follow Paul's argument to those to whom he was writing. CONSIDER WHAT YOU ARE SAYING:

How is it men, who didn't even know God, who were doing service to them who were not God, following God's Passover, His Holy Days and His Sabbaths??

How is it men, who didn't even know God, who were doing service to them who were not God~BECAUSE that's what unregenerate people DO by nature!

following God's Passover, His Holy Days and His Sabbaths??~This is an oxymoron question! GB, if one is NOT of God, then they CANNOT be following God's word, whether living under the OT laws for the Jews, or any commandment that's for CHRISTIANS IN GENERAL! We have addressed this with you before, but as always you ask the SAME OLD questions using the same scriptures over and over again that have been dealt with and PROVEN your corruption in the sense that you use them.

I don't think you spent much time thinking about your preaching here.

GB, it is you that does not spend very much time listening to others strong arguments that clearly show your corruption of the gospel of Jesus Christ, especially so from the book of Galatians that this thread has gone into depth on more than once.

It seems you are preaching that these men were following those awful, Beggarly Elements of God, that is, His wicked Passover, and HIS unrighteous judgment of the 7th Day, before they even knew Him. And then Paul convinced them to reject these Laws of God they followed before they knew Him. But now, after that they know Him, they were "Turning again" to those useless, evil Beggarly Elements of God they followed before they knew God.

That's NOT what Paul was saying, and NEITHER is anyone here saying that.

GB you can not follow simple reasoning that Paul was using against those who sought acceptance with God by their OWN WORKS OTHER THAN through the system of FAITH, of trusting solely in Christ's perfect obedience as the ONLY means of our LEGAL justification before the bar of Heaven.

Seeking justification by our works is NO DIFFERENCE than serving false gods and doing service TO THEM as we did BEFORE we came to the knowledge of the truth! Seeking to be justified by our own works is NO BETTER than we were in our former converstion~ THIS IS PAUL'S ARGUMENT to make them THINK of the error of their way of observing DAYS, MONTHS, MEATS, etc. etc. in order for their acceptance before God. You are so confused and the more you talk the more I see just how confused a legalist is...and deserving so.

It would be almost a parity, a SNL skit, if it were not that you actually believe the teaching.

Not sure about that, but for sure your understanding fits perfectly with John 8-10; Matthew 23, etc.  Christ's words to religious men who THOUGHT they saw! Enough already, maybe more than I should have done toward you~ It is like casting pearls of truths before a swine who thinks a stinking mud hole has just as much if not more worth than precious pearls   

[GB]

 author=beam link=topic=74624.msg1055156218#msg1055156218 date=1581513121]

I am fascinated by you twisted understanding of scripture.

I would like to go over Gal 4 using the NIV
8 Formerly, when you did not know God, you were slaves to those who by nature are not gods. 9 But now that you know God – or rather are known by God – how is it that you are turning back to those weak and miserable forces? Do you wish to be enslaved by them all over again? 10 You are observing special days and months and seasons and years! 11 I fear for you, that somehow I have wasted my efforts on you.

Before Paul introduced the Galatians to God the Galatians had no idea who God is.  They were slaves to those who were not gods.  Then Paul asks them why they are returning to those weak and miserable forces.  Lets be clear here, it was not the Judaizers who were keeping the Galatians from knowing the true God before Paul came and introduced them to Him.  The Judaizers knew the true God and would at least made God known to the Galatians.  After they were converted to Christianity it was the Judaizers who came and convinced them to observe special days and months and seasons and years.  It was the Jews that observed those events.  These facts put the story in its proper prospectus. You think I spent not enough time thinking about my preaching here.  I know you have not spent enough time discerning the real truth.  I am not stupid concerning scripture.  What is stupid is not realizing we all do not know it all.

"Formerly, when you did not know God, you were slaves to those who by nature are not gods. 9 But now that you know God – or rather are known by God – how is it that you are turning back to those weak and miserable forces?"

There is no intellectually honest way to twist this verse to mean that these Galatians were following Passover, Pentecost, the Christ's Holy Sabbaths etc., before they knew God. They most certainly followed religious High Days of the religions of the land. Maybe the Winter Solstice, or Venerable Day of the Sun, Queen of heaven, Venus and her eggs, etc.

But there is no indication from these scriptures that these Galatians were following God's Commandments before they knew God. Religious men preach this in order to justify their religious lifestyle which, like the Pharisees, Transgressed the Commandments of God.

Your next error is preaching that the Jews were trying to get the Galatians, or anyone else, to follow God's Commandments. They were trying to get others to follow their religious traditions which transgressed God's Commandment. They were teaching for doctrines the Commandments of Men.

They had created their own religion which Jesus pointed out quite clearly if you were interested in HIS definition of them and their religion.

And lastly, you preach that Paul is calling the Feast's of the Christ, along with His Holy Sabbath that HE created for man, "Beggarly Elements" or as the NIV calls the traditions of men these Galatians observed before they knew God, "weak and miserable forces".

These scriptures do not teach that God's Commandments are "weak and miserable forces", nor does it teach that these Galatians followed God's Evil Commandments before they even knew God.

These are assumptions you are making based on the influence of the religions of this land. Paul is saying no such thing.

If you could prove that as fact you might have a case.  Until then we know the Judaizers were were keeping days months and years and that is what they were teaching the Galatians.

This is your religion, and your religious doctrines. But here is what Jesus says about the Jews who were "Bewitching" the Galatians.

Matt. 15:3 But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?

Matt. 15:7 Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying, 8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me. 9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men. (weak and miserable forces)

John 7:19 Did not Moses give you the law, and yet none of you keepeth the law? Why go ye about to kill me?

John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

Acts 7:51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye. 52 Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers:

53 Who have received the law by the disposition of angels, and have not kept it.

I could go on and on. The Biblical Fact is that the "Judiazers" as you call them, were not teaching people to follow God's Laws, Statutes and Commandments. They followed religious traditions of men, but they were not from God.

You may preach they were, in order to justify your religion. But according to EVERY WORD Jesus used to define them, they were not.

This is why I am here on this forum, to expose these falsehoods that folks have been convinced of.

You better believe I cannot see it because it is not there.  Read Eph 2:15, Gal 3:19 and 2Cor 3:6-11.  We are not under the law and to teach that we are is heresy.

I am glad to discuss these other scriptures, but lets examine your preaching on this one first. The Word's of Jesus Himself has corrected you. You imply in your preaching, as do "many" who come in Christ's Name, that the Galatians were following God's Commandments before they knew God, and then Paul converted them into knowing God, which in your religion means they stopped obeying God's Commandments, then the Jews came by and were influencing them to "return" to their obedience to God before they knew HIM.

This religious doctrine is, of course, foolishness. You are Biblically wrong on several fronts. First, the Jews were not teaching the truth about the God of the Bible, nor were they teaching, or following God's Commandments. Zechariahs was, but the Pharisees were not.

So with this lie as your foundation, how can you understand truth?

2nd, The Galatians were not following God's Commandments and Laws before they even knew Him. So they couldn't "turn again" to follow Laws they never followed in the first place.

If you are so prideful you can't accept these two errors of yours, and be corrected by the Christ's own Words, then what is the use of having a Biblical discussion with you?

What feast?  One thing for sure he never told us to observe Sabbath, new moon or feast days.

1Cor. 5:6 Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump?

7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:

8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.

Paul never called God's Commandments "Beggarly Elements" or ""weak and miserable forces". that is a lie you promote, and many others as well.

Religious Traditions of men, ancient pagan high days observed by folks before they know God, these are "Beggarly Elements" and ""weak and miserable forces".

But not Passover and Not the Christ's Holy Sabbath HE created for man.

You may despise them, as did the Jews, and even Paul before He was knocked off his high horse. But your preaching that Paul is calling God's Commandments, "Beggarly Elements" or ""weak and miserable forces", in Gal. 4 is an insidious lie.

He did no such thing Beam. You have been tricked into believing he did. You are burdened with the yoke of deception that has snared so many before you. And now you are trying to burden me with this same deception, just as the Jews tried to burden the Disciples in Acts. 15.

10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?

Now witness how the Leaven works Beam. Because you believe the lie that the Jews were following God's Laws, you also believe that the "Yoke" mentioned here is also God's Laws.

Yet, when a person actually considers the Scriptures, we find that the problem with the Jews was the opposite. They despised God's Sabbaths, they polluted HIS Laws and created their own religion that they placed on the shoulders of men.

Matt. 23:4 For they (Pharisees, not God) bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; (Necks) but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers.

This leaven has infected your entire mind, and has poisoned you against the real God of the Bible. This leaven infects and corrupts your entire understanding.

To the point where you actually believe Paul is calling God's Commandments "weak and miserable forces" in Gal. 4, when he is most certainly not.

So the question is, do you care? Or have you been convinced, as these Jews, that your religion supersedes divine Scripture.

[GB]

 author=RB link=topic=74624.msg1055156224#msg1055156224 date=1581518513]

How is it men, who didn't even know God, who were doing service to them who were not God~BECUASE that's what unregenerate people DO by nature!  following God's Passover, His Holy Days and His Sabbaths??~b]This is an oxymoron question! GB, if one is NOT of God, then they CANNOT be following God's word, whether living under the OT laws for the Jews, or any commandment that's for CHRISTIANS IN GENERAL!

Yes, if they don't know God, they can not be following God's Commandments. My "oxymoron question" that you have avoided for weeks goes still unanswered. How can men "turn again" to Commandments of God they never knew?

Gal. 4:8 Howbeit then, when ye knew not God, ye did service unto them which by nature are no gods. 9 But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage? 10 Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years.

You preach to the world "Paul calls God's Commandments "Beggarly Elements" in Gal. 4".

This preaching is another in a long line of falsehoods that you promote on this forum. The Jews had created their own High Days, just as you have. Their own Sabbaths, just as you have. The were teaching for doctrines the Commandments of Men, and were trying to get the Galatians to "return" to religious doctrines and traditions of men they followed before they knew God. It doesn't matter to Paul whether these "Beggarly Elements" were "Commandments of Men" Jesus said the Jews promoted, or other religious traditions of the land. They were not God's Commandments.

It's right there in your own Bible. Red, Paul is not calling Passover and God's Holy Sabbaths "Beggarly Elements" in this chapter. You despise these things, the Pharisees polluted and despised these things, but Paul did not.

If you will not be corrected by Scripture, then who are you?

We have addressed this with you before, but as always you ask the SAME OLD questions using the same scriptures over and over again that have been dealt with and PROVEN your corruption in the sense that you use them.

And that is because you repeat the same lies over and over and over, even when God's Word exposes you, just as HE did on your preaching that Paul called God's Commandments "Beggarly Elements" in Gal. 4.

He didn't Red. It didn't happen. You are telling untruths about Paul and his teaching. And you know it. Be a Nicodemus Red. Look at this scripture and show me how Paul equates Passover to ancient pagan high days, and other "Beggarly Elements".

If you can't, then be corrected. If you refuse to be corrected, then you are no different than the Pharisees who also lied about God's Word and also refused to be corrected.

Be a Nicodemus Red. Come out of her while you still can.

[RB]

Yes, if they don't know God, they can not be following God's Commandments. My "oxymoron question" that you have avoided for weeks goes still unanswered. How can men "turn again" to Commandments of God they never knew?

GB, I have never avoided anything that you have posted, unless it was the same old questions that you cleave to that the Devil has used to lock you into the deep deception wherein you live~We attempt to answer all questions from all people, and yes, I'm sure there are times that we just overlook some, for whatever reason, but never out of fear of not knowing the truth, that I can assure you of that reason. But the truth is our answers are never to your satisfaction, of which, that will never happen to one that's under a strong delusion...there is nothing new under the sun, consider the religious men of Christ's day and never a man spoke as Jesus did for his words were with authority, yet to what good did it to them? Well, I answer that question, not one thing UNTIL the Spirit of God first quicken their dead spirit. Just as Paul said to the Galatia Christians:

Galatians 4:9~"But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?

God first knows his elect by his preordained love toward us, or else we would have never known him! While we are at this scripture and the one before it, let us ONE MORE TIME consider Paul's words.

Galatians 4:8-10~Howbeit then, when ye knew not God, ye did service unto them which by nature are no gods. But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage? Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years.

Paul's object is to make their fall appear more criminal, by comparing it with their former life before coming to the knowledge of the truth as it is IN JESUS CHRIST. It is not wonderful, he says, that formerly ye did service to them which by nature are no gods; for, wherever ignorance of God exists, there must be dreadful blindness. You were then wandering in darkness, but how disgraceful is it that in the midst of light you should fall into such gross errors! The main inference is, that the Galatians were less excusable for corrupting the gospel than they had formerly been for idolatry.

Still farther to heighten the blame, he corrects his language, and says, or rather have been, known by God; for the greater the grace of God is towards us, our guilt in despising it must be the heavier. Paul reminds the Galatians whence they had derived the knowledge of God. He affirms that they did not obtain it by their own exertions, by the acuteness or industry of their own minds, but because, when they were at the farthest possible remove from thinking of him, God visited them in his mercy. What is said of the Galatians may be extended to all; for in all are fulfilled the words of Isaiah...

Isaiah 65:1~"I am sought by them that asked not for me: I am found by them that sought me not."

The origin of our calling is the free election of God, which predestinates us to life before we are born. On this depends our calling, our faith, our whole salvation.

How turn ye again?~ They could not turn again to ceremonies which they had never practiced. The expression is figurative, and merely denotes, that to fall again into wicked superstition, as if they had never received the truth of God, was the height of folly. When he calls the ceremonies beggarly elements, he views them as out of Christ, and, what is more, as opposed to Christ~"weak beggarly" NOT OF THEMSELVES, but because of OUR SINFUL FLESH unable to perfectly fulfill them as Christ did. To the Jews of old, they were not only profitable exercises and aids to piety, POINTING THEM TO CHRIST AND THEIR NEED OF HIM. But their whole value or purpose, lay in Christ. The false apostles, on the other hand, neglecting CHRIST'S OBEIEDNCE~labored to exalt their own~endeavoring to EXALT OT days, months, meats, just about anything that they could have a part in so they could receive some glory in the process of their salvation from sin and condemnation to eternal life in the world to come~as if Christ alone were not sufficient.

I'll finish later, I have a meeting to attend very soon.

[Cobalt1959]

By the way Amo, besides the ten commandments, what are the laws, statutes, ordinances, and judgments given to Moses by God that were and are no shadow and so remains and not done away with?

I am sure you already know this but Amo makes an end-run around Mosaic Law that is inexorably tied to the Sabbath by re-naming it "God's Sabbath."  Using this device, one is no longer bothered by any kind of pesky rules written in the Bible for the actual keeping of the Sabbath.  Using this device, SDA's can just re-brand the Sabbath and turn it into anything they want it to be.

In reality, the only component of the Sabbath that SDA's keep is the day.  And even then, their Sabbath does not begin at sundown on Friday and end at sundown on Saturday.  They just go to church on Saturday instead of Sunday and then claim to be "keeping" the Sabbath.  That is why none of them will explain exactly how they, themselves keep the Sabbath.  Because they do not keep the Sabbath the way the Bible instructs them to keep it, and they know it.  So they invent all kinds of rhetorical devices to explain why they only have to keep one rule about the Sabbath.  Meanwhile, they tell everyone else they have to keep the Sabbath, but they can never explain how they keep it.  Pretty cool.  A doctrine where you never have to explain to anyone why they have to do what you are doing, because you yourself don't actually know how you are doing it.

[RB]

Galatians 4:9~"But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?"

How turn you back again to the legal services of the ceremonial law?~ Which he calleth elements, or rudiments, because they were God’s first instructions given to his church under Moses for his worship, to which he intended afterward a more perfect way of worship under Jesus Christ's religion, or NEW Testament.

He calls them weak, because they brought nothing to perfection; and the observance of them was impotent as to the legal justification of a soul, as all the law is.

He calls them beggarly, in comparison of the more rational, spiritual way of worship under the gospel of Jesus Christ, the RIGHTEOUS ONE.

He saith that they desired to be in bondage unto these, because they would not see and make use of the liberty from them which Christ had secured for them by his perfect obedience and faith.

Objection that GB and others may make. It may be objected by those who embrace a work gospel, that the Galatians were not educated in Judaism; how then doth the apostle charge them with turning back to them?

Answer~This hath made some think, that, by the weak and beggarly elements, mentioned in this verse, the apostle meaneth their Gentile superstitions and idolatries; but this is not probable, the apostle, in this short epistle, has not been charging them with no such apostasy.  Paul calleth their fact a turning back, not so much with reference to their personal practice, as to the state of the church; which was once under those elements, but by the coming of Christ was brought into a more perfect state. So that for them who were called into the church in the time of this its more perfect state, for them to return to the bondage of the law, that was truly to turn back; if not to any practice of their own, which they had cast off, yet to a state of the church which the church of God had now progressed to by the preaching of the apostles.

Yes, if they don't know God, they can not be following God's Commandments. My "oxymoron question" that you have avoided for weeks goes still unanswered. How can men "turn again" to Commandments of God they never knew?

There is your answer, along with what I said above and many other times in this thread~which I'm sure will be just words off of a dead man's ears, but that is not my problem but yours.  Now, this is behind us, let me return and finish by post to you.

[RB]

Be a Nicodemus Red. Come out of her while you still can.

GB, you have said this to me more than once, and every time I just ignored it because I knew you had no clue about Nicodemus and as to why he is even in the holy scriptures, so I always just forbear discussing this poor timid child of God with you. So, it is time for me to prove just how ignorant spiritually you are, even more so than Nicodemus was when he first came to Jesus. No, I do not want to be a Nicodemus, but those who possess the spirit of the Bereans in Acts 17:11!

Acts 17:10,11~"And the brethren immediately sent away Paul and Silas by night unto Berea: who coming thither went into the synagogue of the Jews. These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

Now, GB, do you believe you understand John 3:1-10~I'm 100% sure you do not.

John 3;1-10~"There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews: The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him. Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born? Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit. Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be? Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?"

Very short and for now until you tell me what this discourse is teaching us.

I see a man ALREADY BORN AGAIN by the Spirit of God coming to Jesus with a child-like spirit, confessing his faith in Jesus and Jesus telling him that NO MAN can see the kingdom of God (spiritual truths) UNLESS he is FIRST born of the Spirit of God! Yes, Nicodemus's UNDERSTANDING was VERY limited for he did not easily comprehend Jesus' teaching on HOW ONE IS BORN AGAIN, NEVERTHELESS, he shows himself to be a true believer from two more scriptures found in John's gospel.  John 7:50; 19:39. YET, as far as we know he NEVER LEFT the sect of the Pharisees! If so, then prove it!

So, what saith thou concerning John 3 and the life of this child of God named Nicodemus? Do you see why I said that he was TIMID? No thank you, I do not want to be a Nicodemus but a Berean Christians~even though any child of God would LOVE the spirit of a Nicodemus for sure.

[Michael2012]

By the way Amo, besides the ten commandments, what are the laws, statutes, ordinances, and judgments given to Moses by God that were and are no shadow and so remains and not done away with?

I am sure you already know this but Amo makes an end-run around Mosaic Law that is inexorably tied to the Sabbath by re-naming it "God's Sabbath."  Using this device, one is no longer bothered by any kind of pesky rules written in the Bible for the actual keeping of the Sabbath.  Using this device, SDA's can just re-brand the Sabbath and turn it into anything they want it to be.

In reality, the only component of the Sabbath that SDA's keep is the day.  And even then, their Sabbath does not begin at sundown on Friday and end at sundown on Saturday.  They just go to church on Saturday instead of Sunday and then claim to be "keeping" the Sabbath.  That is why none of them will explain exactly how they, themselves keep the Sabbath.  Because they do not keep the Sabbath the way the Bible instructs them to keep it, and they know it.  So they invent all kinds of rhetorical devices to explain why they only have to keep one rule about the Sabbath.  Meanwhile, they tell everyone else they have to keep the Sabbath, but they can never explain how they keep it.  Pretty cool.  A doctrine where you never have to explain to anyone why they have to do what you are doing, because you yourself don't actually know how you are doing it.

The question is one that might well light up things for them, Cobalt1959. For when they bring up a law or judgement or commandment, as that were and are no shadow and so remains and not done away with, they will find themselves refuting themselves. They will self destruct so to say. So I don't really expect them giving even just one. 

Anyway, thanks for your comment there.

[RB]

Be a Nicodemus Red. Come out of her while you still can.

One more thought. You keep misusing the phrase~"Come out of her while you still can"~as you do with just about every scripture you quote. The call from heaven to come out of her is a call to come out of the WORLD.

Revelation 18:4~"And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues."

This is NOT a call to come out of false religion for the most part God children have in one way or another~besides truly NONE of us will ever have a system of doctrines that is PERFECT and ALL of God's children are on different levels of their understanding of biblical truths, so in one sense it truly is impossible to be free of all doctrines unsupported by the word of God, even though it is our earnest desire to be so! God has children in many religions of this world, with a few exceptions of certain devilish cults~such as Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormonism, etc. Revelation 17 deals expressly with the RELIGIOUS sector part of Mystery Babylon, while Revelation 18 deals with the commercial sector, entertainment sector side of Mystery Babylon. The call of Revelation 18:4 by John is the very same warning spoken of by John in his epistles:

1st John 2:15-17~"Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him. For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world. And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever."

Mystery Babylon is THIS WORLD SYSTEM with its FALSE RELIGIONS and it's commercial and entertainments that Satan uses to deceive his followers with! This call to come out of her is MUCH HARDER to obey than a simple departure from false religion, it is a separation from the IDOLS OF THIS WORLD that tugs on our hearts MUCH MORE than the religions of Mystery Babylon.  Time and space in this thread will not allow me to prove Mystery Babylon as God uses that term~but I did start a thread last week on this very subject, go there and post if you believe me to be in error~I would love to debate this subject with you. 

[GB]

 author=RB link=topic=74624.msg1055156243#msg1055156243 date=1581538399]

GB, I have never avoided anything that you have posted, unless it was the same old questions that you cleave to that the Devil has used to lock you into the deep deception wherein you live~We attempt to answer all questions from all people, and yes, I'm sure there are times that we just overlook some, for whatever reason, but never out of fear of not knowing the truth, that I can assure you of that reason. But the truth is our answers are never to your satisfaction, of which, that will never happen to one that's under a strong delusion...there is nothing new under the sun, consider the religious men of Christ's day and never a man spoke as Jesus did for his words were with authority, yet to what good did it to them? Well, I answer that question, not one thing UNTIL the Spirit of God first quicken their dead spirit. Just as Paul said to the Galatia Christians:  God first knows his elect by his preordained love toward us, or else we would have never known him! While we are at this scripture and the one before it, let us ONE MORE TIME consider Paul's words. Paul's object is to make their fall appear more criminal, by comparing it with their former life before coming to the knowledge of the truth as it is IN JESUS CHRIST.

The entire reason why I am bring your religion to task is because you preach things that are just not in the Bible. You preach to the world;

 "Paul calls God's Commandments "Beggarly Elements" is Gal. 4."

This is an untruth, a lie, a deception. Now I know you believe it was a revelation from the Spirit of Christ Himself. That the reason I can't see Paul calling God's Commandments "Beggarly Elements" is because I don't have the Holy Spirit, and of course you do.

It's a matter of belief. You don't believe in the Judgments of God. But Paul did.

Your religion is wrong on so many levels regarding this lie you promote, that Paul is calling God's Commandment's, "Beggarly Elements" or as you said in another place, "Rudiments of the World", Vain Deceit, Traditions of men, It's hard to know where to start.

First, you claim Paul is teaching the Gospel of Christ, and I agree. So then in your religion, Jesus would also have taught that the Commandments of God are "Beggarly Elements", and Paul is simply furthering a foundation that has already been laid by Jesus. And yet Jesus walked in these "Beggarly Elements" all HIS Life, and it is written: "therefore did God give HIM a Name above all others". In your religion, is Jesus a hypocrite?

But even you, Even You, must surly know that Jesus didn't consider, suggest, imply or ever taught that the Commandments of HIS father were "Beggarly Elements". EVEN You, must know Jesus never promoted such foolishness.

Second, these Galatians were observing religious high days of those who were no gods, before they knew God. And Paul said they were "turning again" to the same practice. For a man to believe Paul is speaking about the Commandments of God as you preach to the world, I would have to believe there isn't any difference between God's Commandments, and the religious traditions of those who were no gods.

So that in your religion, God places no difference between Passover, and the birth of Mithra. Paul didn't teach this, and either did Jesus. You do, but they didn't.

Third, in order to believe your preaching that Paul called God's Commandments "Beggarly Elements" in Gal. 4, I would also have to believe that the Jews were trying to convert the Galatians to follow God's Commandments. This is an insidious lie that you promote a lot. The Pharisees were trying to turn the Galatians towards their religious traditions of men they called the Law of Moses. They were promoting for doctrines the commandments of Men, not God as you falsely preach to unsuspecting minds.

I know this because I believe the Word's of Jesus Himself when HE described them during HIS Life. And they were not teaching for doctrines the Commandments of God. To preach otherwise is to preach a lie.

These 3 Biblical Truths clearly show the deception of your preaching that Paul called God's Commandments "Beggarly Elements" in Gal. 4. It didn't happen, Paul did not suggest, imply, teach or otherwise promote the religious doctrine that God's Commandments are "Beggarly Elements" in Gal. 4.

It is truly a false doctrine of religious man.

[/u][/i] It is not wonderful, he says, that formerly ye did service to them which by nature are no gods; for, wherever ignorance of God exists, there must be dreadful blindness. You were then wandering in darkness, but how disgraceful is it that in the midst of light you should fall into such gross errors! The main inference is, that the Galatians were less excusable for corrupting the gospel than they had formerly been for idolatry.

Only if you believe that their blindness came from following God's instruction, can you believe this nonsense. And that only by rejecting God's Commandments you call "Beggarly Elements" can they truly see.

The Bible is full of examples of Other religious voices trying to turn people away from God's Commandments since Eve was convinced God's Command made her blind.

Your message is the same message, just a different religious voice.

Still farther to heighten the blame, he corrects his language, and says, or rather have been, known by God; for the greater the grace of God is towards us, our guilt in despising it must be the heavier.

Matt. 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

So how is it these Galatians knew God, but were rejecting HIS Commandments you preach to the world are "Beggarly Elements"? Weren't they "Children of Disobedience" before they "knew God" and became "children of obedience"? Were they not "Turning again" to their former estate of unbelief?

How long before you humble yourself and finally admit that you are wrong about Paul in this letter? That is was not God's Commandment that Paul called "Beggarly Elements", but religious service to those who are no gods. Pagan high days and man made religious traditions which cost the Pharisees their salvation.

Paul reminds the Galatians whence they had derived the knowledge of God. He affirms that they did not obtain it by their own exertions, by the acuteness or industry of their own minds, but because, when they were at the farthest possible remove from thinking of him, God visited them in his mercy.

How did God visit them? Was it not from preachers that Jesus sent them? I find your religion so hypocritical. A man can not choose to follow God, but he can choose to "turn again" to those who are no gods.

What is said of the Galatians may be extended to all; for in all are fulfilled the words of Isaiah...The origin of our calling is the free election of God, which predestinates us to life before we are born. On this depends our calling, our faith, our whole salvation.

The Word's of Isaiah crush your religion Red.

IS. 56:6 Also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to the LORD, to serve him, and to love the name of the LORD, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant;

7 Even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted upon mine altar; for mine house shall be called an house of prayer for all people.

you preach that God's Sabbath is a Beggarly Element. And that the Stranger can't "Join himself" to the Lord, unless God Chooses him from some unknown lottery, and HIS Choice is not based on the stranger "Joining Himself" to the Lord, as that would be participating in our own Salvation. A doctrine you preach against at all costs.

Isaiah didn't teach this.

1 Thus saith the LORD, Keep ye judgment, and do justice: for my salvation is near to come, and my righteousness to be revealed.

2 Blessed is the man that doeth this, and the son of man that layeth hold on it; that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and keepeth his hand from doing any evil.

But you preach HIS Judgments are "Beggarly Elements". Neither Paul nor Isaiah ever taught such disrespect for God's Word.

How turn ye again?~ They could not turn again to ceremonies which they had never practiced. The expression is figurative, and merely denotes, that to fall again into wicked superstition, as if they had never received the truth of God, was the height of folly.

Yes, "wicked Superstition". Not God's Judgment. Unless you believe there is no difference between the two. Which your religion certainly implies.

When he calls the ceremonies beggarly elements, he views them as out of Christ, and, what is more, as opposed to Christ~"weak beggarly" NOT OF THEMSELVES, but because of OUR SINFUL FLESH unable to perfectly fulfill them as Christ did.

God's Commandments are not "wicked superstitions" nor are they "Beggarly Elements". "sinful Flesh" is sinful because it transgress God's Commandments. When we walk in the same Path Jesus walked, our flesh is being ruled over by God's Word. "Not of themselves" as they did when they served those who were no gods. We are told to "Deny ourselves", another teaching of Christ you reject. Your religion that in order for me to "SEE" I must first reject God's Commandments is a popular religious doctrine. But it was a lie in Eve's time, and it is still a Lie when you promote it as well.

To the Jews of old, they were not only profitable exercises and aids to piety, POINTING THEM TO CHRIST AND THEIR NEED OF HIM. But their whole value or purpose, lay in Christ.

It was the Priesthood "works" that were to lead them to Christ's sacrifice for us. Had they been obedient children like Zechariahs, Simeon, Anna, the Wise Men, they would have been "led to Christ" as they were. But the Pharisees weren't obedient, instead they considered God's commandments "Beggarly Elements" like you do, and polluted and despised God's Sabbaths as you do, and they taught for doctrines the commandments of men, not God because like you, they didn't believe in God's Judgment and omitted them from their religion.. Their blindness wasn't because they obeyed God as you imply in your religion, it was because they rejected HIS Judgments and Sabbaths in favor of their own. At least this is what the scriptures teach.

The false apostles, on the other hand, neglecting CHRIST'S OBEIEDNCE~labored to exalt their own~endeavoring to EXALT OT days, months, meats, just about anything that they could have a part in so they could receive some glory in the process of their salvation from sin and condemnation to eternal life in the world to come~as if Christ alone were not sufficient.

Red, The preaching that Jesus followed "Beggary Elements" and "rudiments of the world" and therefore God gave HIM a Name above all others, but the Pharisees, who you preach were also following these same "Beggarly Elements", were rejected from the Kingdom of God is just another example of the hypocrisy Jesus warned of in man made religions.

Listen to Jesus and HIS definition of these people. These mainstream preachers of Christ's time were not "endeavoring to EXALT OT days, months, meats". To preach this you must first reject EVERY Word Jesus ever said about them.

Paul wasn't struggling with a mainstream religion which honored God and HIS Judgments with respect and obedience Red. He was dealing with a mainstream religion which had corrupted God's Commandments, and had polluted HIS Judgments and were forcing their religion on to others. Until you humble yourself to the God of the Bible, and HIS Truths in this regard, you are destined to remain ever learning, but never able to come to that knowledge of the truth..

[GB]

 author=RB link=topic=74624.msg1055156254#msg1055156254 date=1581589972]

GB, you have said this to me more than once, and every time I just ignored it because I knew you had no clue about Nicodemus and as to why he is even in the holy scriptures, so I always just forbear discussing this poor timid child of God with you. So, it is time for me to prove just how ignorant spiritually you are, even more so than Nicodemus was when he first came to Jesus. No, I do not want to be a Nicodemus, but those who possess the spirit of the Bereans in Acts 17:11!  Now, GB, do you believe you understand John 3:1-10~I'm 100% sure you do not. Very short and for now until you tell me what this discourse is teaching us.

Nicodemus was a Mainstream Preacher of Jesus time who had been promoting "Commandments of Men", and traditions which transgressed Commandments of God. But after hearing the teaching of Jesus, he came to Him with questions.

Jesus told him the same thing HE had taught in the Law and Prophets. A man must change, and deny his old self, to see the Kingdom of God. Duet. 10:16 Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked.

2Chron. 7:14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

Nicodemus came to Jesus by night because he was afraid of how the other mainstream preachers of his time would respond. Would they kill him? Persecute him as they did so many others who trusted the Word's of God?

But Jesus didn't let him completely off the hook. "How can these things be"? Nicodemus said.

10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?

I love this. You are a self proclaimed preacher of God's Word and you don't know these things?

Perfect. Would HE not also tell you the same things Red? "You are a self proclaimed preacher of God's words, yet you preach God's Commandments are "Beggarly Elements"?

You also promote ancient religious traditions of religions of the land. Like the Jews, you don't believe in the Judgments of God, at least many of them. So, like the Jews, you have joined yourself to a religion which preaches against God's Judgments. You even call them "Beggarly Elements". You reject God's Judgments and promote your own religious traditions of men, along with your images of God created after the likeness of some long haired men's hair shampoo model. Yes, you call the Christ Lord, Lord, but you do not deny your self, rather, you choose your judgments over God's. Just like Eve did, and just like the Pharisees did.

When I say, "Come out of her" I am speaking to the these great religions that the merchants of the world depend on, in large part, for their economies. The religious High Days created by the mainstream religions of the land are joined at the hip with the merchants of the world. You promote their religion, just as the Jews promoted their doctrines and religious traditions of man. God will exact HIS Promises on the nations who do this to HIS word. This is why HE said to "Come out of her" before it's too late.

Nicodemus was a mainstream preacher of Jesus time who had promoted the lawless religion that the Pharisees placed on the necks of the people of their time. I ask you to "be a Nicodemus" because I want you to stop preaching these insidious lies like God's Commandments are Beggarly Elements, and the Jews were following God's Commandments, and "many other such things that you preach".

It wasn't easy for Nicodemus to "deny himself" and come to Jesus, but he did. I can only imagine how humiliating it was for him to endure the scorn which would come from the other mainstream preachers who "Taught for doctrines the Commandments of Men". But it seems He was able to endure as he came to the grave and honored Jesus in HIS death.

It's not too late for you to deny your own self and accept the Word's of God. No one is forcing you to preach the lies about God's Commandments being "Beggarly Elements". You can be corrected if you would humble yourself to the Christ of the Bible.

[Michael2012]

GB,

Gal. 4:9 But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?

You seem to have no right understanding about that which is spoken of as the "the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage".

Consider what Paul said in verses 1-3, concerning the heir, that as long as he is a (young) child, he differeth nothing from a servant, though he be lord of all. And that he is under tutors and governors until the time appointed of the father. As such, under some kind of bondage (no freedom) or under restraint. Similarly, the Christians, before their coming to Christ by faith, were under bondage. In the case of Jews, before their coming to Christ by faith, their bondage was to the restraints of the Law, the Jewish religion. In the case of Gentile Christians, before their coming to Christ by faith, it was the restraints of pagan religion.

Now, consider what Paul said in verse 5. He said "To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons."

He speaks of "them that were under the law".

Who are the "them" that were under the law?

[Cobalt1959]

The question is one that might well light up things for them, Cobalt1959. For when they bring up a law or judgement or commandment, as that were and are no shadow and so remains and not done away with, they will find themselves refuting themselves. They will self destruct so to say. So I don't really expect them giving even just one.

Anyway, thanks for your comment there.

We all use different methodology when we talk with someone we know is trapped in a spiritual con.  I know how this operates because I was trapped in the charismatic con for 8 years.  I was stuck in it when I first joined this forum.  Once I started thinking that the con might actually be the Real Deal, all my Bible study time was spent, (once I made up my mind that it was real, working the Bible into supporting what I was seeing and what I now wanted to believe.  Seventh Day Adventists suffer from the same flawed logic, but to an even worse degree.  Because the entire SDA faith revolves not around the Bible, but around Ellen G. White.  Without her, none of these people would believe what they believe.  They study the Bible having already installed an EGW filter before they begin, so they literally cannot use proper heremeneutics, exegesis, or context when studying the Bible.  Especially when it comes to Mosaic Law.  Hebrews says anyone chaining themselves to The Law is under a curse.  But SDA's ignore that passage.  Moses tells Israel that God DID NOT make the covenant, and that would included the Sabbath, with anyone before He made it with Israel.  That means that God DID NOT institute the Sabbath for mankind at Creation.  And even then, Mosaic Law was only applied to Israel and was only a device to both set them apart and illustrate just how deeply sin was ingrained in a person.  That no amount of works or rule following could ever purge it.  A perfect sacrifice was required.  SDA's ignore that too.

I don't believe that most of us here are beating up on them.  I certainly hold no malice towards any of them, just some of the methodology they use.  You should definitely not act Holier-Than-Thou when you are trapped in a false man-made doctrine.  I'd like to see them break free of it, but they are not having any of it . . .  And I understand that.  I wouldn't even listen to my own parents when it came to the Charismatic Circus.

[RB]

Nicodemus was a Mainstream Preacher of Jesus time who had been promoting "Commandments of Men", and traditions which transgressed Commandments of God.

GB, using an idiom that is based on a technology that is rapidly disappearing~"You sound like a broken record"! Actually you have no clue about what you are saying, and cannot be supported with scriptures. The WORDS of the Pharisees were from the writings of Moses, where they corrupt the words of Moses teaching only the outward actions were to be avoided or done, yet they never taught that the VERY MOTION OF SIN IN THEIR HEARTS WAS A SIN AGAINST GOD'S COMMANDMENT~that's why we have the sermon on the mount where Jesus corrected the false teachings of yours brothers in the religion that you have come to embrace!

Matthew 23:3~"All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not."

Much like this brother said of people like you:

In reality, the only component of the Sabbath that SDA's keep is the day.  And even then, their Sabbath does not begin at sundown on Friday and end at sundown on Saturday.  They just go to church on Saturday instead of Sunday and then claim to be "keeping" the Sabbath.  That is why none of them will explain exactly how they, themselves keep the Sabbath.  Because they do not keep the Sabbath the way the Bible instructs them to keep it, and they know it.  So they invent all kinds of rhetorical devices to explain why they only have to keep one rule about the Sabbath.  Meanwhile, they tell everyone else they have to keep the Sabbath, but they can never explain how they keep it.  Pretty cool.  A doctrine where you never have to explain to anyone why they have to do what you are doing, because you yourself don't actually know how you are doing it.

(Red highlights are mine~RB.) So, GB, Jesus said that we should OBSERVE AND DO, just make sure that we do not be like your religious groups practices by saying things yet not truly judging the VERY MOTION OF SIN IN OUR HEARTS AS SIN against the commandments of Almighty God!  And I will add~ONCE we refuse to judge the very motion of sin in our hearts, AS SIN then we begin to set up our own standards of right and wrongs and make the commandments of God voided by our own man-made commandments, yet we would NEVER called them that, but they are. After Paul's conversion to the truth, then and ONLY then did he understand that the very motion of sin in our members was a transgression against God's law....

Romans 7:5-9~"For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death. But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter. What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet. But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead. For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died."

A true knowledge of God's commandments and our inability to perfectly keep them, PROVEN by our understanding of SIN WORKING IN OUR MEMBERS, even though we may OUTWARDLY seem righteous to ourselves and to others, yet INWARDLY we see just how wicked we all in the old man that still lives with us until we put off this body OF SIN and death. Your Pharisees' brothers cleaned only the outside up and were never concerned with their HEARTS...

Matthew 23:25-27~"Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess. Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also. Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness."

Now, I'm not judging your hearts only your religion that stresses the OUTSIDE and is not concerned with the MOTION OF SIN that works continuously in the old man Adam and calling that motion.....SIN , which should PROVE to all of us that it is IMPOSSIBLE to keep God's commandments perfectly and because of that we must seek refuge in JESUS CHRIST'S RIGHTEOUSNESS as the only means of acceptance with God.   I'm coming back later for I have much more to say to you.         

[RB]

We all use different methodology when we talk with someone we know is trapped in a spiritual con.  I know how this operates because I was trapped in the charismatic con for 8 years.  I was stuck in it when I first joined this forum.  Once I started thinking that the con might actually be the Real Deal, all my Bible study time was spent, (once I made up my mind that it was real, working the Bible into supporting what I was seeing and what I now wanted to believe.  Seventh Day Adventists suffer from the same flawed logic, but to an even worse degree.  Because the entire SDA faith revolves not around the Bible, but around Ellen G. White.  Without her, none of these people would believe what they believe.  They study the Bible having already installed an EGW filter before they begin, so they literally cannot use proper heremeneutics, exegesis, or context when studying the Bible.  Especially when it comes to Mosaic Law.  Hebrews says anyone chaining themselves to The Law is under a curse.  But SDA's ignore that passage.  Moses tells Israel that God DID NOT make the covenant, and that would included the Sabbath, with anyone before He made it with Israel.  That means that God DID NOT institute the Sabbath for mankind at Creation.  And even then, Mosaic Law was only applied to Israel and was only a device to both set them apart and illustrate just how deeply sin was ingrained in a person.  That no amount of works or rule following could ever purge it.  A perfect sacrifice was required.  SDA's ignore that too.

I don't believe that most of us here are beating up on them.  I certainly hold no malice towards any of them, just some of the methodology they use.  You should definitely not act Holier-Than-Thou when you are trapped in a false man-made doctrine.  I'd like to see them break free of it, but they are not having any of it . . .  And I understand that.  I wouldn't even listen to my own parents when it came to the Charismatic Circus.

+1

[RB]

...........But after hearing the teaching of Jesus, he came to Him with questions. Jesus told him the same thing HE had taught in the Law and Prophets. A man must change, and deny his old self, to see the Kingdom of God.

Please hear me out attentively. Here is another vital point of serious corruption of the word of God that is a continuously link to your overall doctrine that men like you all embrace in order to share some of the glory of you embracing what you and others consider to be the truth, when in fact it is part of a corruption of the gospel of Jesus Christ, making it another gospel that falls under the curse of Galatians chapter one, pronounced by God through his servant Paul.

You believe and others like you that man who is dead in trespasses and sin can come to Christ without being FIRST regenerated by the Spirit of Christ~for you clearly said:

A man must change, and deny his old self, to see the Kingdom of God

So, you teach that a man MUST CHANGE and deny himself in order to see the kingdom of God~this is not what Jesus Christ taught us in his discourse with Nicodemus. Your teaching clearly is your personal opinion and goes into the face of what is actually taught from John 3:1-10.

There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews: The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.

Nicodemus a Pharisees came to Jesus and made a very serious and humble confession concerning who he knew Christ to be~"art a teacher come from God"~so much different from other Pharisees who said the Jesus had a spirit of Beelzebul Matthew 12:22-32; Luke 11:14-23! Based upon his confession, (one that is good as anyone of us could ever make!) Jesus said these words to him:

John 3:3"Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."

CONTEXT IS KING and will lead us to the truth of what is being spoken! Based upon the good confession of Nicodemus, Jesus said back to him in everyday language....Truly, truly, I say unto you Nicodemus, EXCEPT a man be born again, that man could NOT make the confession that you just made WITHOUT the new birth!

Nicodemus DID NOT come asking questions, he came to let Jesus KNOW that he KNEW that only a man sent for God could do what he was doing. This discourse in the word of God is here to teach all that have ears to hear and eyes to see a great doctrine that is taught all through the scriptures and it is this: " that regeneration by the Spirit of God MUST proceed man's power to believe and to make such a humble confession that Nicodemus made here in John 3.

It is very true, that Nicodemus was ignorant of spiritual truth just as we all are, UNTIL the Spirit of God opens our understanding and causes us to SEE, and even then it is a long process of coming to the knowledge of such truths and the sad part is that we will NEVER be fully converted until that day when we receive our glorified bodies.

After Jesus said what he did in verse three, then poor Nicodemus begins to ask questions concerning what Jesus had said to him.

Very few folks truly understand this discourse, even though they may be born again, TRUTH comes over a period of time, because we all live in a BODY OF SIN and death, even though born of God, it is a battle with the flesh, the devil and false prophets to come to the knowledge of such truths. But those who truly seek shall find the truth they are seeking, even though it may not be perfect, yet overall they shall.

John 3:4-7~Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born? Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

Poor Nicodemus asked how could he enter into his mother's womb and be born, being old~BASED UPON NICODEMUS' QUESTION Jesus said except a man be born of water (our first birth through our mother's womb~if Nicodemus had not asked his question the way that he did, then water would have NEVER been mentioned, and the reason why we know this is because Jesus NEVER mentioned water again when explaining the new birth in the verses following verse five!) and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God WHERE one can begin to SEE and understand biblical truths!

So, regeneration MUST proceed believing, repentance, baptism, denying self, etc. etc. Get it wrong here then one's own gospel is corrupted, some more, some less, but will be corrupted for sure.

Later I have more to say about your two posts.  Forgive the errors of typing for I'm in a hurry for some meetings.

[GB]

GB,

Gal. 4:9 But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?

You seem to have no right understanding about that which is spoken of as the "the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage".

Consider what Paul said in verses 1-3, concerning the heir, that as long as he is a (young) child, he differeth nothing from a servant, though he be lord of all. And that he is under tutors and governors until the time appointed of the father. As such, under some kind of bondage (no freedom) or under restraint. Similarly, the Christians, before their coming to Christ by faith, were under bondage. In the case of Jews, before their coming to Christ by faith, their bondage was to the restraints of the Law, the Jewish religion. In the case of Gentile Christians, before their coming to Christ by faith, it was the restraints of pagan religion.

Now, consider what Paul said in verse 5. He said "To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons."

He speaks of "them that were under the law".

Who are the "them" that were under the law?

This is your religious belief. But this is because you refuse to accept the Covenant God made with Levi on Israel's behalf, regarding How God's Law is administered, and HOW sins are atoned for.


According to  "the covenant that I (Christ) made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:"

According to this covenant, a person who sinned, (Transgressed God's commandment) either an Israelite or stranger that sojourned with them, were forced by LAW to go find a Levite Priest, to offer them an offering for their sin, and the Levite Priest would then perform required sacrificial "works of the Law" for the sin to be atoned for. This "LAW" was to lead them to Christ and His Sacrifice which was foreshadowed by these Priesthood duties.

But the Priest's Corrupted this Priesthood as I showed you awhile back.

Mal. 2:7 For the priest's lips should keep knowledge, and they should seek the law at his mouth: for he is the messenger of the LORD of hosts.

8 But ye are departed out of the way; ye have caused many to stumble at the law; ye have corrupted the covenant of Levi, saith the LORD of hosts.

So as it is written; "For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:"


So "after those days", God's Covenant changed. We are given direct access to the Word of God, regardless of where we are. No longer bound to the corrupt Levite Priest, or any preacher, for our instruction in Righteousness. And we are now in the "After those days" in which we are no longer bound to take an offering to a Levite Priest, or any preacher, who would then perform "works" for the atonement of sins. (wafers, sprinkling, etc.) For the Christ Himself will forgive our sins.

The "bondage" is the teaching of these corrupt Priests. Shepherds who taught for Doctrines the Commandments of Men which caused the people to go astray. Traditions which caused those who follow them to "Transgress the commandments of God".

At least according to the Jesus of the Bible.

Acts. 15:10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?

Matt. 23:4 For they (Pharisees, not God as you imply) bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders;(Necks) but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers.

The implications of your preaching is that God's Commandments themselves is the Burden. But that is just another popular lie. It is deception, Rudiments of the world, religious traditions of men that the Pharisees had laid on the necks of the people. Not God's Righteous Laws. Had the Jews been obedient like Zechariahs and Simeon, they would have known the Christ when He came to them, as they did.

Paul words. "But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?

Before they knew God, they were not Children of Obedience as you would have us believe. They did service to those who were no Gods. Just as the Pharisees did. As the Word's of Jesus plainly tells you if you can accept them.

John 8:41 Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God.

42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, (If you were God's Sons) ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.

43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.

44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

So the Pharisees who were trying to "bewitch" the Galatians were serving those who were no gods. So they denied themselves, and were follow the God of the Bible, and were known of Him. So we see Paul rebuking the Galatians for "Turning again" to the religious doctrines and traditions (Beggarly Elements) they followed before they knew God. Not the Righteous, Good, Holy and Just Commandments of God as you and Red preach.

So as I'm instructed, I am calling you out on your preaching that Paul is calling God's Commandments "Beggarly Elements" in Gal. 4, because he is not. It is a false teaching.

The son's of God are now at liberty to "yield themselves" to God's Word, free from the bondage and deception of a corrupt priesthood. And we are free to repent and offer ourselves a living sacrifice to God, "apart" from the Covenant God made with Levi, just as Abraham was also freed from the deception of the religions of the land.

Red's preaching, and your defense of the religious doctrine that Paul is calling Passover, or God's Holy Sabbaths, "Beggarly Elements", is an insidious lie that the Scriptures do not support.

Those who were still "Under the Law" in Paul's time are those who still relied on the Covenant God made with Levi on the Children of Israel's behalf, regarding the atonement of their sins. As Paul said;

4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

The preaching that this is speaking to the 2 greatest Commandments and all that hang on them is a satanic teaching.

[Michael2012]

This is your religious belief. But this is because you refuse to accept the Covenant God made with Levi on Israel's behalf, regarding How God's Law is administered, and HOW sins are atoned for.


According to  "the covenant that I (Christ) made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:"

According to this covenant, a person who sinned, (Transgressed God's commandment) either an Israelite or stranger that sojourned with them, were forced by LAW to go find a Levite Priest, to offer them an offering for their sin, and the Levite Priest would then perform required sacrificial "works of the Law" for the sin to be atoned for. This "LAW" was to lead them to Christ and His Sacrifice which was foreshadowed by these Priesthood duties.

But the Priest's Corrupted this Priesthood as I showed you awhile back.

Mal. 2:7 For the priest's lips should keep knowledge, and they should seek the law at his mouth: for he is the messenger of the LORD of hosts.

8 But ye are departed out of the way; ye have caused many to stumble at the law; ye have corrupted the covenant of Levi, saith the LORD of hosts.

So as it is written; "For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:"


So "after those days", God's Covenant changed. We are given direct access to the Word of God, regardless of where we are. No longer bound to the corrupt Levite Priest, or any preacher, for our instruction in Righteousness. And we are now in the "After those days" in which we are no longer bound to take an offering to a Levite Priest, or any preacher, who would then perform "works" for the atonement of sins. (wafers, sprinkling, etc.) For the Christ Himself will forgive our sins.

The "bondage" is the teaching of these corrupt Priests. Shepherds who taught for Doctrines the Commandments of Men which caused the people to go astray. Traditions which caused those who follow them to "Transgress the commandments of God".

At least according to the Jesus of the Bible.

Acts. 15:10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?

Matt. 23:4 For they (Pharisees, not God as you imply) bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders;(Necks) but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers.

The implications of your preaching is that God's Commandments themselves is the Burden. But that is just another popular lie. It is deception, Rudiments of the world, religious traditions of men that the Pharisees had laid on the necks of the people. Not God's Righteous Laws. Had the Jews been obedient like Zechariahs and Simeon, they would have known the Christ when He came to them, as they did.

Paul words. "But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?

Before they knew God, they were not Children of Obedience as you would have us believe. They did service to those who were no Gods. Just as the Pharisees did. As the Word's of Jesus plainly tells you if you can accept them.

John 8:41 Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God.

42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, (If you were God's Sons) ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.

43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.

44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

So the Pharisees who were trying to "bewitch" the Galatians were serving those who were no gods. So they denied themselves, and were follow the God of the Bible, and were known of Him. So we see Paul rebuking the Galatians for "Turning again" to the religious doctrines and traditions (Beggarly Elements) they followed before they knew God. Not the Righteous, Good, Holy and Just Commandments of God as you and Red preach.

So as I'm instructed, I am calling you out on your preaching that Paul is calling God's Commandments "Beggarly Elements" in Gal. 4, because he is not. It is a false teaching.

The son's of God are now at liberty to "yield themselves" to God's Word, free from the bondage and deception of a corrupt priesthood. And we are free to repent and offer ourselves a living sacrifice to God, "apart" from the Covenant God made with Levi, just as Abraham was also freed from the deception of the religions of the land.

Red's preaching, and your defense of the religious doctrine that Paul is calling Passover, or God's Holy Sabbaths, "Beggarly Elements", is an insidious lie that the Scriptures do not support.

Those who were still "Under the Law" in Paul's time are those who still relied on the Covenant God made with Levi on the Children of Israel's behalf, regarding the atonement of their sins. As Paul said;

4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

The preaching that this is speaking to the 2 greatest Commandments and all that hang on them is a satanic teaching.

Gal. 4:4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law, 5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.

Who are the "them" in Gal. 4:5 that were under the law that the Son was sent forth to redeem?

Why can't you answer the simple question? Does the truth bother you?