Sunday Worship is not sanctioned in Scripture.

[GB]

 author=RB link=topic=74624.msg1055156305#msg1055156305 date=1581680564]

A man must change, and deny his old self, to see the Kingdom of God


So, you teach that a man MUST CHANGE and deny himself in order to see the kingdom of God~this is not what Jesus Christ taught us in his discourse with Nicodemus. Your teaching clearly is your personal opinion  and goes into the face of what is actually taught from John 3:1-10.You believe and others like you that man who is dead in trespasses and sin can come to Christ without being FIRST regenerated by the Spirit of Christ~for you clearly said:  So, you teach that a man MUST CHANGE and deny himself in order to see the kingdom of God 

Maybe It is not what your jesus teaches. But it is exactly what the Jesus of the Bible taught.

Mark. 8:34 And when he had called the people unto him with his disciples also, he said unto them, (ALL) Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

 I only know what the Jesus of the Bible tells me. How do you know that Nicodemus wasn't part of the crowd listening to Jesus here? And what are you preaching? That Nicodemus had a different teaching than the Christ's Disciples, or the other people Jesus taught?

I am posting and believing HIS Words, it is your opinion that they are not to be trusted, not my opinion.

~this is not what Jesus Christ taught us in his discourse with Nicodemus. Your teaching clearly is your personal opinion and goes into the face of what is actually taught from John 3:1-10.  Nicodemus a Pharisees came to Jesus and made a very serious and humble confession concerning who he knew Christ to be~"art a teacher come from God"~so much different from other Pharisees who said the Jesus had a spirit of Beelzebul Matthew 12:22-32; Luke 11:14-23! Based upon his confession, (one that is good as anyone of us could ever make!) Jesus said these words to him:  CONTEXT IS KING and will lead us to the truth of what is being spoken! Based upon the good confession of Nicodemus, Jesus said back to him in everyday language....Truly, truly, I say unto you Nicodemus, EXCEPT a man be born again, that man could NOT make the confession that you just made WITHOUT the new birth!

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

So Nicodemus was a Mainstream Preacher of that time. He surely must have heard Jesus speak. He would then have checked the Scriptures to see if these things were so, and found them to be true. He then knew he had sin, but he didn't go to the Levite as the Law of Moses required, he went to Jesus as many others did.

Nicodemus DID NOT come asking questions, he came to let Jesus KNOW that he KNEW that only a man sent for God could do what he was doing. This discourse in the word of God is here to teach all that have ears to hear and eyes to see a great doctrine that is taught all through the scriptures and it is this: " that regeneration by the Spirit of God MUST proceed man's power to believe and to make such a humble confession that Nicodemus made here in John 3.

This is your religion. But then, you preach God's Commandments are Beggarly Elements. Not to sure how wise it is to trust a religious man who despises God's Judgments as you do.

It is very true, that Nicodemus was ignorant of spiritual truth just as we all are, UNTIL the Spirit of God opens our understanding and causes us to SEE, and even then it is a long process of coming to the knowledge of such truths and the sad part is that we will NEVER be fully converted until that day when we receive our glorified bodies.

Yes, I agree with this. But God is not going to give a person understanding who looks at HIS Judgments, and then rejects them. At least according to Peter. Acts 5:32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

You don't know what happened between God and Nicodemus, what Nicodemus did, how he humbled himself to God and was shown "Mercy" as God promised all who love Him and Honor His Words. Like so many, he too was drawn to the Christ by God. But we do have insight into how God deals with HIS people.

If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

You preach the hearing, healing and forgiveness come before they "humble themselves". Very popular teaching, but not true for those who have "Learned from God".

So, regeneration MUST proceed believing, repentance, baptism, denying self, etc. etc. Get it wrong here then one's own gospel is corrupted, some more, some less, but will be corrupted for sure.

Again, You preach one Gospel, the Christ preaches another. Over and over your preaching is in direct contradiction to the very Word's of the Christ Himself.

And when you are challenged, you choose the religion over God's Word every time. I'm sure glad Abram didn't do that.

And if I want to be heirs to the promise, I should do the works of Abraham as Jesus instructed. Another scripture you preach against.

[GB]

author=Michael2012 link=topic=74624.msg1055156311#msg1055156311 date=1581709097]

Red's preaching, and your defense of the religious doctrine that Paul is calling Passover, or God's Holy Sabbaths, "Beggarly Elements", is an insidious lie that the Scriptures do not support.

Those who were still "Under the Law" in Paul's time are those who still relied on the Covenant God made with Levi on the Children of Israel's behalf, regarding the atonement of their sins. As Paul said;

4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

The preaching that this is speaking to the 2 greatest Commandments and all that hang on them is a satanic teaching.

Gal. 4:4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law, 5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.

Who are the "them" in Gal. 4:5 that were under the law that the Son was sent forth to redeem?

Why can't you answer the simple question? Does the truth bother you?

Who are the "them" in Gal. 4:5 that were under the law that the Son was sent forth to redeem?

Why can't you answer the simple question? Does the truth bother you?

I answered it, you simply do not have the capacity to see it. Here, I'll post my answer again, only this time, I'll type real slow.

Those who were still "Under the Law" in Paul's time are those who still relied on the Covenant God made with Levi on the Children of Israel's behalf, regarding the atonement of their sins. As Paul said;

4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

[GB]

GB, using an idiom that is based on a technology that is rapidly disappearing~"You sound like a broken record"! Actually you have no clue about what you are saying, and cannot be supported with scriptures. The WORDS of the Pharisees were from the writings of Moses, where they corrupt the words of Moses teaching only the outward actions were to be avoided or done, yet they never taught that the VERY MOTION OF SIN IN THEIR HEARTS WAS A SIN AGAINST GOD'S COMMANDMENT~that's why we have the sermon on the mount where Jesus corrected the false teachings of yours brothers in the religion that you have come to embrace! Much like this brother said of people like you:  (Red highlights are mine~RB.) So, GB, Jesus said that we should OBSERVE AND DO, just make sure that we do not be like your religious groups practices by saying things yet not truly judging the VERY MOTION OF SIN IN OUR HEARTS AS SIN against the commandments of Almighty God!  And I will add~ONCE we refuse to judge the very motion of sin in our hearts, AS SIN then we begin to set up our own standards of right and wrongs and make the commandments of God voided by our own man-made commandments, yet we would NEVER called them that, but they are. After Paul's conversion to the truth, then and ONLY then did he understand that the very motion of sin in our members was a transgression against God's law....A true knowledge of God's commandments and our inability to perfectly keep them, PROVEN by our understanding of SIN WORKING IN OUR MEMBERS, even though we may OUTWARDLY seem righteous to ourselves and to others, yet INWARDLY we see just how wicked we all in the old man that still lives with us until we put off this body OF SIN and death. Your Pharisees' brothers cleaned only the outside up and were never concerned with their HEARTS... Now, I'm not judging your hearts only your religion that stresses the OUTSIDE and is not concerned with the MOTION OF SIN that works continuously in the old man Adam and calling that motion.....SIN , which should PROVE to all of us that it is IMPOSSIBLE to keep God's commandments perfectly and because of that we must seek refuge in JESUS CHRIST'S RIGHTEOUSNESS as the only means of acceptance with God.   I'm coming back later for I have much more to say to you.       

You must tie me somehow to SDA and Ellen White even though you know I don't promote either one, nor have I ever been tied to them. That's OK though, what else do you have?

You are right about one thing. I shut my business down and don't work on the Christ's Holy Sabbath. But I do not keep the Sabbath perfectly Holy every week. Sometimes I am pressured by the worries of this life and let my mind drift. Sometimes I do have difficulty honoring Him on this day. I do slip up in the "race" the Christ has set before me. I am not yet perfect. Of this I freely admit.

As my Elder Paul said;

12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.

13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,

14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.

15 Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.

So I know white washed walls will try to make me and others who strive to honor God's Words, to stumble, like they tried with Jesus and  the rest of His Disciples.

I could be liked by you and the religions of the land if I would just reject the Judgments of God you reject. If I quote God's Word where His Holy Sabbath is concerned, and strive to "live by them" I get called names by you and ridiculed. But if I reject God's Holy Sabbaths, I am your friend, and "Brother".

If I quote God's Word's where Feast of Unleavened Bread is concerned I am called a Pharisee and a heretic. But if I reject the Christ's Feasts, and follow your Christmas and Good Friday, I am a "good Christian" and you call me a "Brother".

If I quote the Christ's creation of animals made for food, and those not made for food, I am bringing myself under the "Beggarly Elements" you call God's Commandments. I have "Fallen from Grace. But if I invite your church to a Charity Pig roast at the baseball game after Bingo on Saturday, I am praised as selfless, and loved by all, and again called a "Brother".

So yes, it would be easier to follow your religion where I must ignore and omit half of the Bible in order to be accepted by you and the religion of the land you promote.

And maybe you are right. Maybe God's Word isn't Holy, and isn't to be trusted. Maybe men are meant to create their own religion based on whatever judgments fit their fancy. But my Faith is in the Christ of the Bible. I am purchased by Him.

1 Cor. 15:58 Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord.

2 Tim. 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

Ex. 20:2 I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, (SIN) out of the house of bondage.(Deception)

8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.

9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: 10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: 11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

[Cobalt1959]

You must tie me somehow to SDA and Ellen White even though you know I don't promote either one, nor have I ever been tied to them. That's OK though, what else do you have?

You are right about one thing. I shut my business down and don't work on the Christ's Holy Sabbath. But I do not keep the Sabbath perfectly Holy every week. Sometimes I am pressured by the worries of this life and let my mind drift. Sometimes I do have difficulty honoring Him on this day. I do slip up in the "race" the Christ has set before me. I am not yet perfect. Of this I freely admit.

With Mosaic Law, which is what you are actually attempting to follow, you don't get the option of not doing it right.  When it comes the Sabbath, if you were caught working on the Sabbath in the OT, you were to be put to death.  So in reality, even though the SDA's on this board, and every other board go around telling people that they keep the Sabbath and that other people should too, they already know they are not keeping it either.  Once again:  Credibility.  If you are telling people you are doing something, and they need to do it too, the same way, but you aren't actually doing what you say you are doing, you have no credibility.  It also makes you a hypocrite.  Biblically, "keeping" the Sabbath, in the way that SDA's and you advocate it being kept is virtually impossible without a temple in Jerusalem, a Levitical Priesthood in place and functioning in that Temple, and the sacrificial system also being in operation.  If you are not offering the Sabbath sacrifices, and all the other sacrifices required by Mosaic Law, you are not keeping the Sabbath at all.  Ever.  You are not even close.

You've chained your faith to a work.  You can claim you don't.  You can use circular reasoning as to why this work needs to be performed, over and over again even though you yourself know you aren't getting it right.  Not even close to right.  So it is utterly pointless to tie your faith to a work, and it is both doing you absolutely no good and it is getting you no closer to God.  Faith and service to God is not attached to any work.  The Bible is abundantly clear about.  Faith and service to God stem from realizing one is a sinner, repenting of that sin through accepting Christ as one's Savior, and living one's walk out through faith, and faith alone.  Works won't even buy you a cup of coffee.

[Michael2012]

Who are the "them" in Gal. 4:5 that were under the law that the Son was sent forth to redeem?

Why can't you answer the simple question? Does the truth bother you?

I answered it, you simply do not have the capacity to see it. Here, I'll post my answer again, only this time, I'll type real slow.

Those who were still "Under the Law" in Paul's time are those who still relied on the Covenant God made with Levi on the Children of Israel's behalf, regarding the atonement of their sins. As Paul said;

4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

The question is not about those who were STILL under the law, but clearly about those who were under the law before God sent His Son. Admit it or not, that isn't an honest answer in that case. But let me get to your answer there.

Galatians 4 :1 Now I say, That the heir, as long as he is a child, differeth nothing from a servant, though he be lord of all;2 But is under tutors and governors until the time appointed of the father. 3 Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world: 4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law, 5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.

You are saying then that, in the fullness of time, God sent forth his Son, to redeem those who STILL "relied on the Covenant God made with Levi on the Children of Israel's behalf, regarding the atonement of their sins". So, who are they exactly?

Also, you are implying by that, that there are those who do not rely anymore on the Levitical priesthood, regarding the atonement of their sins, for which then the Son was not sent forth to redeem? Who are they? So, you have some explaining to do regarding your answer GB. Why STILL? 

It is very doubtful that you understand what Paul said in Gal. 4:1-5. What more with regards Gal. 4:9?

[GB]

 author=Cobalt1959 link=topic=74624.msg1055156319#msg1055156319 date=1581757767]

With Mosaic Law, which is what you are actually attempting to follow, you don't get the option of not doing it right.

My argument is with religions who preach the wholesale rejection of the Word's of Christ, both as the Creator God of the world, and as the Messiah who became a man and walked the earth.

One entire collective message of the Bible is that God's Ways are superior and more beneficial than man's ways.

But Jesus said men love darkness. And it is clear in the historical context of the Scriptures, that religious voices have worked tirelessly to create their own path, a path in which Many of God's Judgments are excluded, since Cain killed Abel. You openly admit you do not believe in many of the Judgments of God. You blame your unbelief on Moses by constantly implying that God's Laws are from Moses. It's a play on words to make you more at ease with implying God is a liar when it comes to much of HIS Teaching before HE became a man.

Your post here is a perfect example of why I stay away from the religions of the land you promote.

Your preaching :

"you don't get the option of not doing it right"

is a perfect example of the shear ignorance of modern religions. The very reason why the Priesthood was created was because God knows men don't always get it right. The VERY REASON for "MERCY" and "Grace" is because God knows we don't always get it right. The very existence of the Passover Lamb is because God knows we don't always get it right.

This is arguably the most ridiculous statement made on this forum. And that is saying a lot. I don't know where you get your religion from, but my advice to you is the same I give to members of SDA. Put down the religious pamphlets you are force fed, stop sucking up to some preacher for your salvation, and live by the Word's of God like Jesus said man should do.

And if you don't have faith enough to trust His Words, at least don't discourage or place a stumbling block in front of those who do believe in HIM, like the Mainstream Preachers of Christ's time did.

Matt. 23: 13 But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.

When it comes the Sabbath, if you were caught working on the Sabbath in the OT, you were to be put to death.

And according to the NT, if I don't drink the Blood of Jesus I am doomed to eternal destruction. That is, destruction from which there is no return.

You are happy to accept these Word's of Jesus as being Spiritual in Nature, but refuse to give the HIS Father's Word's the same respect and consideration. Why is that??? Why do you despise God's Word as unjust, while giving Jesus a pass for telling me if I don't eat HIS Flesh, I can not enter heaven?

So in reality, even though the SDA's on this board, and every other board go around telling people that they keep the Sabbath and that other people should too, they already know they are not keeping it either.

Paul knows there will be "many" who come in Christ's Name, White Washed Walls, who will try to turn HIS Children away from Him and HIS Instructions. As with Eve, there will always be the "Other" religious voices out there trying to turn us away from yielding our self to the Christ and HIS ways.

Jesus kept the Sabbath of God as the scriptures teach, and the Mainstream Preachers of HIS time accused Him of sinning as well. So far you are following in their path, not Jesus'.

I find it foolishness at best, and deceptive at most, to preach that anyone who would Honor the Christ where HIS Holy Sabbath is Concerned is either a Pharisee, or SDA. Apart from the obvious folly of this religious position, I might note that Jesus also Honored HIS Sabbath, and was neither.

Once again:  Credibility.  If you are telling people you are doing something, and they need to do it too, the same way, but you aren't actually doing what you say you are doing, you have no credibility.

The judgment of religious men who reject God's commandment is of little consequence to me. Fortunately for me, I also believe the Scriptures which address this very thing.

Col. 2: 16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:

17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

18 Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,

You have your high days, and the Christ has HIS HOLY Days. I knew 25 years ago that if I turned to HIM and His ways, the mainstream religions of this land would ridicule me as they did Him. So far, you have proven the prophesies accurate.

  It also makes you a hypocrite.  Biblically, "keeping" the Sabbath, in the way that SDA's and you advocate it being kept is virtually impossible without a temple in Jerusalem, a Levitical Priesthood in place and functioning in that Temple, and the sacrificial system also being in operation.

Again, you are furthering more untruths. You have nothing but your own word's to support this part of your religion.

Secondly you are just trying to set a trap. You ask how I Honor the Christ regarding His Sabbath. If I tell you, you will accuse me of trying to tell you how to live, if I don't tell you, you accuse me of being a hypocrite.

Why??? Because you are here to justify your own religious lifestyle, not examine, understand, or prove the Will of the God of the Bible.  It will do me no good I'm sure, but it is true that Jesus kept God's Holy Sabbath and never delivered one animal to the Levite Priests, and He also walked outside the temple with His Disciples in fellowship. So once again, the Christ's Word exposes your religion and the folly of your teaching, not mine. I am simply believing HIM when He tells me His Sabbath is made for man.

  If you are not offering the Sabbath sacrifices, and all the other sacrifices required by Mosaic Law, you are not keeping the Sabbath at all.  Ever.  You are not even close.

You are no different than the Pharisee who taught that it was unlawful to take a walk on the Christ's Sabbath and pick and eat a blackberry.

Like them, You have created your own Sabbath which is unjust, and unsavory, then you Honor yourself by rejecting it. And call me a sinner for refusing to engage in such falsehoods. Just as the Mainstream Preachers of Jesus' Time also called HIM a sinner for doing that which was lawful and right.

Again, you are showing who you emulate.

You've chained your faith to a work.  You can claim you don't.  You can use circular reasoning as to why this work needs to be performed, over and over again even though you yourself know you aren't getting it right.

Again, I believe what is written.

Mark 8:34 And when he had called the people unto him with his disciples also, he said unto them, Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

I don't prescribe to your religion which preaches Jesus denies myself for me, and takes my cross and carries it for me, and follows Himself for me.

So here I am in the same place as Eve. I have God's Word giving me a Command, and I have you telling me the Command makes me blind, a hypocrite, "chained to works".

Which voice shall I heed? I will let the Scriptures answer for me and follow them.

Heb. 12:1 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,

2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

Not looking unto Jesus to strive against sin for us, or to run the race for us. But to consider the examples written for our admonition and not make the same choices they did and to "walk even as Jesus walked".

And when the White Washed walls ridicule us, and call us hypocrite for following God's instructions, there is also encouragements regarding this.

3 For consider him that endured such contradiction of sinners against himself, lest ye be wearied and faint in your minds.

4 Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.

Not even close to right.  So it is utterly pointless to tie your faith to a work, and it is both doing you absolutely no good and it is getting you no closer to God.  Faith and service to God is not attached to any work.  The Bible is abundantly clear about.  Faith and service to God stem from realizing one is a sinner, repenting of that sin through accepting Christ as one's Savior, and living one's walk out through faith, and faith alone.  Works won't even buy you a cup of coffee.

Paul said we are all "chained" to something.

Rom. 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

I was "chained to deception", a servant of unrighteousness. Shall I not yield myself to the righteous judgments of God and stop yielding myself to my own righteousness?

Must I erase Paul's Word's as well.

Rom. 6:13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.

Just because you have Judged God's Sabbath as unrighteous, or Unholy, doesn't make it so.

Rom. 3:3 For what if some did not believe? shall their (Or your) unbelief make the faith of God without effect?

4 God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.


I understand I am bucking centuries of ancient religious traditions, just as Paul was. So I know that you will most likely reject anything that doesn't agree with your religious tradition. But it is still my hope that you might consider, one day, that God's Word's are truly superior to yours. HIS Ways are Righteous, while yours are not. His Judgments are Perfect, while yours are actually evil. And that God is not the liar, but religious men are the liar.

And if you ever come to this place, you will find that God's Word, even the ones you don't yet understand, are Holy. And then will consider in what way you can honor Him in it, since HE is the one who brings you to Christ.

I'll leave you with the Word's the Spirit of Christ inspired Paul to write.

Rom. 12:1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.

2 And be not conformed to this world: (or it's religions) but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
It's not about me telling you what to do. It's about the difference between what the religions of the land preach, and what the Scriptures actually say.

[GB]

 author=Michael2012 link=topic=74624.msg1055156320#msg1055156320 date=1581762650]

The question is not about those who were STILL under the law, but clearly about those who were under the law before God sent His Son. Admit it or not, that isn't an honest answer in that case. But let me get to your answer there.

The Jews were still trying to bring the Galatians "under the Law" of atonement God gave to Levi on Israel's behalf, or I should say, their version of it. This is what the conversation is all about. If you can't accept this truth, then you can't understand Galatians at all.
 

Galatians 4 :1 Now I say, That the heir, as long as he is a child, differeth nothing from a servant, though he be lord of all;2 But is under tutors and governors until the time appointed of the father. 3 Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world: 4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law, 5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.

Before the "fullness of time", or as the Christ calls it "After those days", who were the Tutors and Governors appointed of the Father Michael? Who did God appoint as Administer of HIS Instructions until a certain time? The Scriptures say God made a Covenant with Levi for this very purpose. When Jesus was born, were these "governors and tutors" still appointed? Yes, He was born "under the law".

But whose "LAW" did they promote? Who was Jesus "sent" to Michael? What did HE say in this matter.

Matt. 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

And why were they lost Michael, according to the God of the Bible?

Is. 50:6 My people hath been lost sheep: their shepherds have caused them to go astray, they have turned them away on the mountains: they have gone from mountain to hill, they have forgotten their restingplace.

Mal. 2:7 For the priest's lips should keep knowledge, and they should seek the law at his mouth: for he is the messenger of the LORD of hosts.

8 But ye are departed out of the way; ye have caused many to stumble at the law; ye have corrupted the covenant of Levi, saith the LORD of hosts.

So does Paul also know and believe these Word's? I think he does. So of a truth Jesus came to "Redeem" those who were "under the Law" of the Governors and tutors God placed over them.

Were the Levites, or Pharisees teaching the truth about God? If I believe in EVERY Word Jesus used to describe them the answer would have to be "NO". So even though they might have called the God of Abraham their father, they didn't know Him did they? Had they known the God, they would have known Jesus. So when they didn't know God, they did service to those who were no gods, specifically the devil, as Jesus tells us.

But these "governors and tutors" were still preaching their version of "the law". Jesus said they taught for doctrines the Commandments of men. Do you think Paul knew this? I think He did.

So to be more precise in my answer, the "Them" that Jesus came to redeem, are those Lost Sheep of the Children of Israel who had been led astray by the "Governors and Tutors" HE appointed for a time, who had corrupted the Covenant God made with Levi.

You are saying then that, in the fullness of time, God sent forth his Son, to redeem those who STILL "relied on the Covenant God made with Levi on the Children of Israel's behalf, regarding the atonement of their sins". So, who are they exactly?

No, I was not clear in my answer. In the Fullness of Time God Sent His Son to redeem those who had been led astray be the Priesthood God placed over them, because they had corrupted God's Laws and had created their own, as Jesus said.

Also, you are implying by that, that there are those who do not rely anymore on the Levitical priesthood, regarding the atonement of their sins, for which then the Son was not sent forth to redeem? Who are they? So, you have some explaining to do regarding your answer GB. Why STILL?

Zechariahs, Simeon and Anna were Israelites who were not "under the Law" of the corrupt Priesthood.

 Jesus said; Luke 5:31, And Jesus answering said unto them, They that are whole need not a physician; but they that are sick. 32 I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

This remnant had not been led astray by the Pharisees, therefore they knew God, like Abraham, therefore they knew Jesus when HE came, like Abraham. Their Faith in the Christ and His Sacrifice had already made them whole.
 

[Amo]

I understand that Paul was writing to the Galatians.  If this is true then those who believe Paul is writing that to Christians who are judging those who observe special food laws, festivals, new moons and or worship on the seventh day, have it completely wrong.

Of course Paul was referring to the Jews that had infiltrated the Galatian church and persuaded the Galatians to start keeping Mosaic laws.  Paul was writing that they should not allow the Jews to judge them for not observing those archaic rules.
Jesus is the reality, not some laws from the defunct Torah.  See Gal 3:19 and be sure to read Gal 4 where Paul sums up his pleading with those Galatians.  8 Formerly, when you did not know God, you were slaves to those who by nature are not gods. 9 But now that you know God – or rather are known by God – how is it that you are turning back to those weak and miserable forces[d]? Do you wish to be enslaved by them all over again? 10 You are observing special days and months and seasons and years! 11 I fear for you, that somehow I have wasted my efforts on you.

Oh you otherwise great people who have allowed others to persuade you to keep the defunct Sabbath of Israel only, eat only certain foods, keep festivals that were meant only for Israel and pay a tithe..........

There is no defunct Sabbath of Israel only. Unless you repent of this lie, and admit what scripture testifies over and again, you will no doubt burn in the lake of fire. God and the scriptures refer to the Sabbath as His over and again. Are you calling God or His scriptures lies? If so, repent, your are in danger of hell fire. If not please do explain why you ignore many references to God's Sabbath, and speak as though it was and is only the Jewish Sabbath. Must I provide the scriptures yet again. Why do you deny God's testimony? If you do not want to keep the Sabbath, I suggest you stick to this alone, leave the lie your are telling out of it. You will be far better off in the judgment.


Exod 20:10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:

Exod 31:13 Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying, Verily my Sabbaths ye shall keep: for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that ye may know that I am the LORD that doth sanctify you.

Deut 5:14 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, nor thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thine ox, nor thine ass, nor any of thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates; that thy manservant and thy maidservant may rest as well as thou.

Lev 19:3 Ye shall fear every man his mother, and his father, and keep my sabbaths: I am the LORD your God.

Lev 19:30 Ye shall keep my sabbaths, and reverence my sanctuary: I am the LORD.

Lev 26:2 Ye shall keep my sabbaths, and reverence my sanctuary: I am the LORD.

Isa 56:4 For thus saith the LORD unto the eunuchs that keep my sabbaths, and choose the things that please me, and take hold of my covenant; 5 Even unto them will I give in mine house and within my walls a place and a name better than of sons and of daughters: I will give them an everlasting name, that shall not be cut off. 6 Also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to the LORD, to serve him, and to love the name of the LORD, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant; 7 Even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted upon mine altar; for mine house shall be called an house of prayer for all people.

Ezek 20:12 Moreover also I gave them my sabbaths, to be a sign between me and them, that they might know that I am the LORD that sanctify them. 13 But the house of Israel rebelled against me in the wilderness: they walked not in my statutes, and they despised my judgments, which if a man do, he shall even live in them; and my Sabbaths they greatly polluted: then I said, I would pour out my fury upon them in the wilderness, to consume them. 14 But I wrought for my name's sake, that it should not be polluted before the heathen, in whose sight I brought them out. 15 Yet also I lifted up my hand unto them in the wilderness, that I would not bring them into the land which I had given them, flowing with milk and honey, which is the glory of all lands; 16 Because they despised my judgments, and walked not in my statutes, but polluted my sabbaths: for their heart went after their idols. 17 Nevertheless mine eye spared them from destroying them, neither did I make an end of them in the wilderness. 18 But I said unto their children in the wilderness, Walk ye not in the statutes of your fathers, neither observe their judgments, nor defile yourselves with their idols: 19 I am the LORD your God; walk in my statutes, and keep my judgments, and do them; 20 And hallow my sabbaths; and they shall be a sign between me and you, that ye may know that I am the LORD your God. 21 Notwithstanding the children rebelled against me: they walked not in my statutes, neither kept my judgments to do them, which if a man do, he shall even live in them; they polluted my sabbaths: then I said, I would pour out my fury upon them, to accomplish my anger against them in the wilderness. 22 Nevertheless I withdrew mine hand, and wrought for my name's sake, that it should not be polluted in the sight of the heathen, in whose sight I brought them forth. 23 I lifted up mine hand unto them also in the wilderness, that I would scatter them among the heathen, and disperse them through the countries; 24 Because they had not executed my judgments, but had despised my statutes, and had polluted my sabbaths, and their eyes were after their fathers' idols.

Ezek 22: 8 Thou hast despised mine holy things, and hast profaned my sabbaths.

Ezek 22: 26 Her priests have violated my law, and have profaned mine holy things: they have put no difference between the holy and profane, neither have they shewed difference between the unclean and the clean, and have hid their eyes from my sabbaths, and I am profaned among them.

Ezek 23:38 Moreover this they have done unto me: they have defiled my sanctuary in the same day, and have profaned my sabbaths.

Ezek 44:24 And in controversy they shall stand in judgment; and they shall judge it according to my judgments: and they shall keep my laws and my statutes in all mine assemblies; and they shall hallow my sabbaths.

Neh 9:13-14 13 Thou camest down also upon mount Sinai, and spakest with them from heaven, and gavest them right judgments, and true laws, good statutes and commandments: 14 And madest known unto them thy holy sabbath, and commandedst them precepts, statutes, and laws, by the hand of Moses thy servant:

Lev 23:3 Six days shall work be done: but the seventh day is the sabbath of rest, an holy convocation; ye shall do no work therein: it is the sabbath of the LORD in all your dwellings.

You are in danger. Repent and admit of the truth. The Sabbath was never Israel's, it was always God's and is to this day.

[Amo]

So you are saying that those spoken of in Col. 2:16, those things involving meat, drink, holyday, new moon, and the sabbath days, refers to those things which were written by the hand of Moses, found in the book of the Law, right?

So what of the sabbath days spoken there? Are they any different from the sabbath day spoken in the ten commandments?

You also take the many of the laws, statutes, and ordinances given to Moses by God to give to Israel as were of the rudiments of traditions of this world, employed in teaching and instruction concerning that which was not of this world. That would make of those which concerns the sabbath day as being such then, right? 

Now, concerning the ten commandments, you said "The ten commandments are not in this category being spoken by the mouth of God to Israel, and written with His own finger for them twice. God would not allow a man to author or give them to Israel and or the world. They are not of this world, and cannot in any manner be said to be of the rudiments, traditions, or anything else of this world."

The ten commandments may have been written by God in stone tablets, and those written by Moses' hand, just the same were not from Moses, but from God. They, just as the ten commandments, came from God and are God's ordinances and judgments, and not Moses'. They were not authored by Moses.

Exodus 21:1 Now these are the judgments which thou shalt set before them.

By the way Amo, besides the ten commandments, what are the laws, statutes, ordinances, and judgments given to Moses by God that were and are no shadow and so remains and not done away with?

Yes, there are different sabbaths than the fourth commandment sabbath.

Lev 16:29 And this shall be a statute for ever unto you: that in the seventh month, on the tenth day of the month, ye shall afflict your souls, and do no work at all, whether it be one of your own country, or a stranger that sojourneth among you: 30 For on that day shall the priest make an atonement for you, to cleanse you, that ye may be clean from all your sins before the LORD. 31 It shall be a sabbath of rest unto you, and ye shall afflict your souls, by a statute for ever.

Lev 23:37 These are the feasts of the LORD, which ye shall proclaim to be holy convocations, to offer an offering made by fire unto the LORD, a burnt offering, and a meat offering, a sacrifice, and drink offerings, every thing upon his day: 38 Beside the sabbaths of the LORD, and beside your gifts, and beside all your vows, and beside all your freewill offerings, which ye give unto the LORD. 39 Also in the fifteenth day of the seventh month, when ye have gathered in the fruit of the land, ye shall keep a feast unto the LORD seven days: on the first day shall be a sabbath, and on the eighth day shall be a sabbath.

Lev 25:3 Six years thou shalt sow thy field, and six years thou shalt prune thy vineyard, and gather in the fruit thereof; 4 But in the seventh year shall be a sabbath of rest unto the land, a sabbath for the LORD: thou shalt neither sow thy field, nor prune thy vineyard. 5 That which groweth of its own accord of thy harvest thou shalt not reap, neither gather the grapes of thy vine undressed: for it is a year of rest unto the land. 6 And the sabbath of the land shall be meat for you; for thee, and for thy servant, and for thy maid, and for thy hired servant, and for thy stranger that sojourneth with thee, 7 And for thy cattle, and for the beast that are in thy land, shall all the increase thereof be meat.

The following links address other biblical sabbaths.

https://bible-menorah.jimdofree.com/english/calendar-and-feasts/

http://www.sacredcalendar.info/Sabbaths.html

https://www.logosapostolic.org/bible_study/RP208-2FeastDaySabbaths.htm

https://www.gotquestions.org/Jewish-festivals.html

[Amo]

I am sure you already know this but Amo makes an end-run around Mosaic Law that is inexorably tied to the Sabbath by re-naming it "God's Sabbath."  Using this device, one is no longer bothered by any kind of pesky rules written in the Bible for the actual keeping of the Sabbath.  Using this device, SDA's can just re-brand the Sabbath and turn it into anything they want it to be.

In reality, the only component of the Sabbath that SDA's keep is the day.  And even then, their Sabbath does not begin at sundown on Friday and end at sundown on Saturday.  They just go to church on Saturday instead of Sunday and then claim to be "keeping" the Sabbath.  That is why none of them will explain exactly how they, themselves keep the Sabbath.  Because they do not keep the Sabbath the way the Bible instructs them to keep it, and they know it.  So they invent all kinds of rhetorical devices to explain why they only have to keep one rule about the Sabbath.  Meanwhile, they tell everyone else they have to keep the Sabbath, but they can never explain how they keep it.  Pretty cool.  A doctrine where you never have to explain to anyone why they have to do what you are doing, because you yourself don't actually know how you are doing it.

The sabbath begins at sundown Friday and ends sundown Saturday. Every SDA I have ever known believes this according to scripture. I have not renamed the Sabbath God's sabbath, the scriptures do this themselves. If you continue to deny these scriptures, as already pointed out in a previous post, you will remain in danger of losing your salvation. Denying biblical truth is extremely dangerous to one's soul.

[Cobalt1959]

The sabbath begins at sundown Friday and ends sundown Saturday. Every SDA I have ever known believes this according to scripture. I have not renamed the Sabbath God's sabbath, the scriptures do this themselves. If you continue to deny these scriptures, as already pointed out in a previous post, you will remain in danger of losing your salvation. Denying biblical truth is extremely dangerous to one's soul.

And yet, you can't explain to anyone here how you keep the Sabbath.  And I'm the one with the problem?

And yes, you did re-label it and you said that your Sabbath is different that the Mosaic Sabbath.  You made that statement plainly.  There is only one Sabbath.  That's why both God and Jesus used the word "the" and "Sabbath,"  not "Sabbaths, " plural.

Why is it that you and GB have to try and make some judgement call on anyone who disagrees with you when it comes to their salvation?  Are you that insecure that you have to always assure yourself that you are so much better off by hoping that everyone that doesn't accept the same false plan that you did is going to burn in Hell?  If so, you have way bigger problems than your false doctrine.  You seem to view outside opposition to what you believe as validation that you are right.  That's a Big Red Flag.

1 Timothy 4:1 The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons.  2 Such teachings come through hypocritical liars, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron.  3 They forbid people to marry and order them to abstain from certain foods, which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and who know the truth.  4 For everything God created is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with thanksgiving,  5 because it is consecrated by the word of God and prayer.  6 If you point these things out to the brothers, you will be a good minister of Christ Jesus, brought up in the truths of the faith and of the good teaching that you have followed.

Anyway, you kids have fun with your dead false prophet.

[RB]

Why is it that you and GB have to try and make some judgement call on anyone who disagrees with you when it comes to their salvation?  Are you that insecure that you have to always assure yourself that you are so much better off by hoping that everyone that doesn't accept the same false plan that you did is going to burn in Hell?  If so, you have way bigger problems than your false doctrine.  You seem to view outside opposition to what you believe as validation that you are right.  That's a Big Red Flag.

Well said and I fully agreed~much more so with GB, than Amo, and Amo, to his credit, knows the scriptures better and presents his arguments much better than GB, from me observing and being on the opposite side of them and hearing their defenses of what they consider to be the truth.

I DO NOT take opposition personally and certainly do not use that as a measuring stick for me being right in what I believe. We live by faith in the scriptures not by whether or not we have cornered the truth, but do understand that truth is not a right, but an act of pure mercy from God~and, if we enjoy any portion of his precious truths and we know that only a small portion of men and women truly have God's truth and even then, God's truth may be spread out over to many different men and women in scattered places of this world generally TOTALLY UNKNOWN BY THE WORLD. God's truth is given to those to whomsoever he will, and these folks are known as those who seek after it as men do hidden treasures...... EVEN MORE SO.

[RB]

You must tie me somehow to SDA and Ellen White even though you know I don't promote either one, nor have I ever been tied to them.

Poor little soul, are you being persecuted? Need a mommy? Grown-up and be a man.  I have not associated the SDA with being tied in with Ellen G. White, very much over the length of time I have been posting on this forum, or you being tie into her~I do not have to mentioned this, it is clearly seen from both of your defense of the theology in which you both stand for~now that being said it is clear that the SDA is certainly overly infatuated with this false prophetess, and from whence they had their beginning and from the same generation of evil workers does your doctrine come from. Same stinking bird, just different color of feathers.

That's OK though, what else do you have?

Well, I'm convinced that I see and understand the GOSPEL OF JESUS CHRIST the only message of how God can be just and the justifier of those who seek their legal justification  through the faith of and the obedience of Jesus Christ without the deeds of the law, which includes any work that a man has an active part in. JESUS CHRIST secured by himself the right to eternal life for all those who were given to him to redeem from the curse of God's law, by being made a curse for them. Galatians 3:1-14; 2nd Corinthians 5:21; etc. You and I have totally two different gospel, one based on man's strength to fulfill God's law, and the one that we preach where there was ONLY ONE who God laid help on that alone kept the law God perfectly from conception to his death on the cross for our sins. Even you admitted:

But I do not keep the Sabbath perfectly Holy every week. Sometimes I am pressured by the worries of this life and let my mind drift. Sometimes I do have difficulty honoring Him on this day. I do slip up in the "race" the Christ has set before me. I am not yet perfect. Of this I freely admit.

Not for even one second!  Not sometimes, but every second of the day we have SIN in our body of sin and death, and it works CONSTANTLY in our members even in what we may consider our best effort of pleasing God SIN IS THERE! That's why we look to CHRIST ALONE in order to be accepted by God into eternal life. I have NEVER had an absolute perfect thought WITHOUT SIN BEING PRESENT, and neither have you, or any man that has ever lived except CHRIST! I desire them and labor to have them, but I SEE another law working in my members laboring in bringing me into BONDAGE, except for the truth that Jesus Christ has delivered me from this body of sin legally and one-day permanently when this life is over and the new heaven and earth shall be established forever~BUT, until then, there is a HOLY WAR between the old Adam and the new Adam living side beside within me. I thank God daily for the eternal redemption provided by Christ's righteousness for me~and so should all of us, but some men cannot because they have NO SUCH PEACE AND JOY for our filthy rags cannot provide such peace and joy IF we were completely honest about SIN IN OUR BODY~Nevertheless, the blinded Pharisees will stand and pray into the air~"Lord I thank thee that I'M NOT AS OTHER MEN~ NOT ....even this publican...I do not eat pork;  I do not smoke; I do not drink; I will NOT let anything enters into my body that's unclean; I keep the Sabbath, I do this, that, etc. as well as I CAN... I'm SURE THIS WILL GET ME A PLACE in the world to come, while these men who confess that they are sinners will be cast out."  ....Work mongers know this prayer by heart, it is very sacred unto them~IT IS THEIR HOPE OF HEAVEN, not Christ's obedience~ they will fight any person who believes THAT CURSED GOSPEL. 

If I quote God's Word's where Feast of Unleavened Bread is concerned I am called a Pharisee and a heretic. But if I reject the Christ's Feasts, and follow your Christmas and Good Friday, I am a "good Christian" and you call me a "Brother".

If I quote the Christ's creation of animals made for food, and those not made for food, I am bringing myself under the "Beggarly Elements" you call God's Commandments. I have "Fallen from Grace. But if I invite your church to a Charity Pig roast at the baseball game after Bingo on Saturday, I am praised as selfless, and loved by all, and again called a "Brother".

Most of your posts are nothing more than ad hominem fallacies, not worth my time again dealing with them. But let me say this I do not practice Christimas and NEITHER do I judge those who may allow that in their life. There are greater battles to be fought than such things as far as I'm concerned. I do not believe in good Friday but teach as the scriptures do that Christ died on what we call WEDNESDAY and rosed from the dead very early the FIRST DAY of the week per Mark 16:9 which you reject God's testimony as to what day his Son rose..... and he was THERE, you were not. All those little things you take confidence in as though you have the truth means nothing and will not give you a hiding place IN THAT DAY of God's wrath. Do not play bingo, (waste of precious time)  but do enjoy pork chops for my God has clearly spoken concerning such things:

1st Timothy 4:3-5~"Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth. For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving: For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer."

You sin IF you judge another person in what they eat, as long as they do not drink the blood of anything~for the life of the flesh is in the blood.

I am not yet perfect. Of this I freely admit.

Well, AGAIN you are confused on many important doctrines of the scriptures, ESPECIALLY SO concerning Jesus Christ, In one biblical sense we are NOT perfect, FAR FROM IT~in another biblical sense God's saints are JUST AS PERFECT AS THE SON OF GOD. Even the scriptures you quoted from said:

Philippians 3:13-15~"Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus. Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.

What you are missing is a REVELATION from the Spirit of God concerning the righteousness of God that every child of God NOW is in possession of. Do I need to prove this more?

[Michael2012]

The question is not about those who were STILL under the law, but clearly about those who were under the law before God sent His Son. Admit it or not, that isn't an honest answer in that case. But let me get to your answer there.

The Jews were still trying to bring the Galatians "under the Law" of atonement God gave to Levi on Israel's behalf, or I should say, their version of it. This is what the conversation is all about. If you can't accept this truth, then you can't understand Galatians at all.

The other way around GB. If that is what you take as truth, then you can't understand Galatians at all.
 

Galatians 4 :1 Now I say, That the heir, as long as he is a child, differeth nothing from a servant, though he be lord of all;2 But is under tutors and governors until the time appointed of the father. 3 Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world: 4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law, 5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.

Before the "fullness of time", or as the Christ calls it "After those days", who were the Tutors and Governors appointed of the Father Michael?

What scriptures say, before the "fullness of time", that is, before the Son was sent forth by God, the tutor was the law, not some person or what.

Gal. 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

Who did God appoint as Administer of HIS Instructions until a certain time? The Scriptures say God made a Covenant with Levi for this very purpose.

The sons of Levi.

When Jesus was born, were these "governors and tutors" still appointed?

As I said, before the "fullness of time", that is, before the Son was sent forth by God, the tutor was the law, not some person or what. At least according to scriptures.

Yes, He was born "under the law".

And what does that mean and what is its significance? Can you tell us, at least according to you?

But whose "LAW" did they promote? Who was Jesus "sent" to Michael? What did HE say in this matter.

Matt. 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Yes, to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. And there is not in that passage that relates to redemption as is in the subject scriptures from where my question is coming from that tells us to whom the Son was sent forth by God, to redeem.

Gal. 4:5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.

And why were they lost Michael, according to the God of the Bible?

Is. 50:6 My people hath been lost sheep: their shepherds have caused them to go astray, they have turned them away on the mountains: they have gone from mountain to hill, they have forgotten their restingplace.

Mal. 2:7 For the priest's lips should keep knowledge, and they should seek the law at his mouth: for he is the messenger of the LORD of hosts.

8 But ye are departed out of the way; ye have caused many to stumble at the law; ye have corrupted the covenant of Levi, saith the LORD of hosts.

Yes. During the time when there was nowhere else to learn of the law, the people seems to have no choice but to take the Levite priest's teaching as the law. And so it was, that the sheep goes where the shepherd leads them. And scriptures testify in those passages, at least at the time of Isaiah, that God's people hath been lost sheep, their shepherds have caused them to go astray. But during the time where the people could search scriptures, as it was at the time of Christ, both the teachers of the law and the people have their own responsibility. Only that the teachers have greater responsibility. While it is upon the teachers of the law to teach the truth, it is upon the people to search the scriptures if what is taught them is so. So, the teacher's blindness to the truth is upon themselves, as in like sense the people's blindness is upon themselves. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch. So, if the people were of noble character, with an open mind searched the scriptures for the truth, whether those things taught by the teachers were so, like the Bereans at the time of the apostles, they would not be blind. For elsewhere Jesus said and taught, "he that seeketh findeth". 

And that has nothing to do with the question GB.

So does Paul also know and believe these Word's? I think he does. So of a truth Jesus came to "Redeem" those who were "under the Law" of the Governors and tutors God placed over them.

What scriptures says in Gal. 4:4-5 is that God sent forth his Son to redeem them that were under the law. It does not at all say under the law of the Governors and tutors GB. That is obviously a twisting and stretching of scriptures, if not, an out of context interpretation. And as I have already pointed out, what scriptures say, before the "fullness of time", that is, before the Son was sent forth by God, the tutor was the law, not some person or what. 

Were the Levites, or Pharisees teaching the truth about God? If I believe in EVERY Word Jesus used to describe them the answer would have to be "NO". So even though they might have called the God of Abraham their father, they didn't know Him did they? Had they known the God, they would have known Jesus. So when they didn't know God, they did service to those who were no gods, specifically the devil, as Jesus tells us.

But these "governors and tutors" were still preaching their version of "the law". Jesus said they taught for doctrines the Commandments of men. Do you think Paul knew this? I think He did.

To put that in the right perspective, at least considering the time of Christ, they were not, as can be drawn from the words of Jesus. They have knowledge as to who is the God of Abraham, but not in spirit and in truth, for they believe Him not and honor Him not. So that Jesus said of them, "Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying, This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me. But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men." That is why elsewhere, Jesus also said of them that they are hypocrites and blind guides. Needless to say, they do God no service, but serve their own selves, and exalt themselves, having themselves called of men, Rabbi, of which Jesus said concerning this, "But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren."

And again, that has nothing to do with the question GB.

So to be more precise in my answer, the "Them" that Jesus came to redeem, are those Lost Sheep of the Children of Israel who had been led astray by the "Governors and Tutors" HE appointed for a time, who had corrupted the Covenant God made with Levi.

At least you admit that your previous answer to my question is lacking and change it here. But still, your answer falls short of the truth.

You are saying then that, in the fullness of time, God sent forth his Son, to redeem those who STILL "relied on the Covenant God made with Levi on the Children of Israel's behalf, regarding the atonement of their sins". So, who are they exactly?

No, I was not clear in my answer. In the Fullness of Time God Sent His Son to redeem those who had been led astray be the Priesthood God placed over them, because they had corrupted God's Laws and had created their own, as Jesus said.

Zechariahs, Simeon and Anna were Israelites who were not "under the Law" of the corrupt Priesthood.

So now it is clear. It falls short of the truth. At best, it is only half truth. For what your answer implies is that, the rest who were not led astray by the Priesthood need not be redeemed by the Son, that the Son was not sent forth for them to be redeemed by Him. Well, that is against the truth, for even Zechariahs, Simeon and Anna needed redemption. Who else were not led astray by the priesthood? Well, they too needed redemption GB.

Jesus said; Luke 5:31, And Jesus answering said unto them, They that are whole need not a physician; but they that are sick. 32 I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

This remnant had not been led astray by the Pharisees, therefore they knew God, like Abraham, therefore they knew Jesus when HE came, like Abraham. Their Faith in the Christ and His Sacrifice had already made them whole.

I understand what Luke 5:31 is saying GB. And there is not in that passage that relates to redemption as is in the subject scriptures from where my question is coming from that tells us to whom the Son was sent forth by God, to redeem. Besides, it does not mean to say that there were those who need not be redeemed GB. For there is but one righteous who sinned not, that is, Jesus Christ.

Even the remnant you say there were sinners and need redemption.

So, with all of that, do you still stand up to your answer to the question relative to Galatians 4:4-5 as to who the "THEM" that were under the law that the Son was sent forth to redeem?

Apparently, you are jumping out of the context of the question, and so showing yourself to not rightly divide the word written in Galatians 4.

[Michael2012]

So you are saying that those spoken of in Col. 2:16, those things involving meat, drink, holyday, new moon, and the sabbath days, refers to those things which were written by the hand of Moses, found in the book of the Law, right?

So what of the sabbath days spoken there? Are they any different from the sabbath day spoken in the ten commandments?

You also take the many of the laws, statutes, and ordinances given to Moses by God to give to Israel as were of the rudiments of traditions of this world, employed in teaching and instruction concerning that which was not of this world. That would make of those which concerns the sabbath day as being such then, right?

Now, concerning the ten commandments, you said "The ten commandments are not in this category being spoken by the mouth of God to Israel, and written with His own finger for them twice. God would not allow a man to author or give them to Israel and or the world. They are not of this world, and cannot in any manner be said to be of the rudiments, traditions, or anything else of this world."

The ten commandments may have been written by God in stone tablets, and those written by Moses' hand, just the same were not from Moses, but from God. They, just as the ten commandments, came from God and are God's ordinances and judgments, and not Moses'. They were not authored by Moses.

Exodus 21:1 Now these are the judgments which thou shalt set before them.

By the way Amo, besides the ten commandments, what are the laws, statutes, ordinances, and judgments given to Moses by God that were and are no shadow and so remains and not done away with?

Yes, there are different sabbaths than the fourth commandment sabbath.

Well, apparently you did not really address my post Amo. I was not even asking if there are different sabbaths than the fourth commandment sabbath. Or are you saying by that, that the sabbath days spoken in Col. 2:16 are different from the sabbath day spoken in the ten commandments? If so, what are those sabbath days? And where were those sabbath days coming from or were based? Were those sabbath days not because God rested on the seventh day, six days after His work of creation?

How about the rest of my post?

[Amo]

And yet, you can't explain to anyone here how you keep the Sabbath.  And I'm the one with the problem?

And yes, you did re-label it and you said that your Sabbath is different that the Mosaic Sabbath.  You made that statement plainly.  There is only one Sabbath.  That's why both God and Jesus used the word "the" and "Sabbath,"  not "Sabbaths, " plural.

Why is it that you and GB have to try and make some judgement call on anyone who disagrees with you when it comes to their salvation?  Are you that insecure that you have to always assure yourself that you are so much better off by hoping that everyone that doesn't accept the same false plan that you did is going to burn in Hell?  If so, you have way bigger problems than your false doctrine.  You seem to view outside opposition to what you believe as validation that you are right.  That's a Big Red Flag.

1 Timothy 4:1 The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons.  2 Such teachings come through hypocritical liars, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron.  3 They forbid people to marry and order them to abstain from certain foods, which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and who know the truth.  4 For everything God created is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with thanksgiving,  5 because it is consecrated by the word of God and prayer.  6 If you point these things out to the brothers, you will be a good minister of Christ Jesus, brought up in the truths of the faith and of the good teaching that you have followed.

Anyway, you kids have fun with your dead false prophet.

So, unless someone explains do's and don'ts regarding how they keep a sabbath, there is no sabbath. BALONEY! Nonsense. AS I have told you before, read the commandment and you will know what I do to keep it. It is self explanatory.

Exo 20:8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: 10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: 11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

There it is. Surely you can figure it out. There are different sabbaths.

Lev 16:29 And this shall be a statute for ever unto you: that in the seventh month, on the tenth day of the month, ye shall afflict your souls, and do no work at all, whether it be one of your own country, or a stranger that sojourneth among you: 30 For on that day shall the priest make an atonement for you, to cleanse you, that ye may be clean from all your sins before the LORD. 31 It shall be a sabbath of rest unto you, and ye shall afflict your souls, by a statute for ever.


Lev 19:30  Ye shall keep my sabbaths, and reverence my sanctuary: I am the LORD.

Lev 23:23  And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, 24 Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, In the seventh month, in the first day of the month, shall ye have a sabbath, a memorial of blowing of trumpets, an holy convocation.

Lev 23:26  And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, 27 Also on the tenth day of this seventh month there shall be a day of atonement: it shall be an holy convocation unto you; and ye shall afflict your souls, and offer an offering made by fire unto the LORD. 28 And ye shall do no work in that same day: for it is a day of atonement, to make an atonement for you before the LORD your God. 29 For whatsoever soul it be that shall not be afflicted in that same day, he shall be cut off from among his people. 30 And whatsoever soul it be that doeth any work in that same day, the same soul will I destroy from among his people. 31 Ye shall do no manner of work: it shall be a statute for ever throughout your generations in all your dwellings. 32 It shall be unto you a sabbath of rest, and ye shall afflict your souls: in the ninth day of the month at even, from even unto even, shall ye celebrate your sabbath.

Lev 23:37 These are the feasts of the LORD, which ye shall proclaim to be holy convocations, to offer an offering made by fire unto the LORD, a burnt offering, and a meat offering, a sacrifice, and drink offerings, every thing upon his day: 38 Beside the sabbaths of the LORD, and beside your gifts, and beside all your vows, and beside all your freewill offerings, which ye give unto the LORD. 39 Also in the fifteenth day of the seventh month, when ye have gathered in the fruit of the land, ye shall keep a feast unto the LORD seven days: on the first day shall be a sabbath, and on the eighth day shall be a sabbath.

Lev 25:8 And thou shalt number seven sabbaths of years unto thee, seven times seven years; and the space of the seven sabbaths of years shall be unto thee forty and nine years. 34 Then shall the land enjoy her sabbaths, as long as it lieth desolate, and ye be in your enemies' land; even then shall the land rest, and enjoy her sabbaths.

You and your's are the ones who continually bring up the dead prophet, as you just did, not us.

[Amo]

Yes, there are different sabbaths than the fourth commandment sabbath.

Well, apparently you did not really address my post Amo. I was not even asking if there are different sabbaths than the fourth commandment sabbath. Or are you saying by that, that the sabbath days spoken in Col. 2:16 are different from the sabbath day spoken in the ten commandments? If so, what are those sabbath days? And where were those sabbath days coming from or were based? Were those sabbath days not because God rested on the seventh day, six days after His work of creation?

How about the rest of my post?

You asked -

So what of the sabbath days spoken there? Are they any different from the sabbath day spoken in the ten commandments?

[Cobalt1959]

Well said and I fully agreed~much more so with GB, than Amo, and Amo, to his credit, knows the scriptures better and presents his arguments much better than GB, from me observing and being on the opposite side of them and hearing their defenses of what they consider to be the truth.

I DO NOT take opposition personally and certainly do not use that as a measuring stick for me being right in what I believe. We live by faith in the scriptures not by whether or not we have cornered the truth, but do understand that truth is not a right, but an act of pure mercy from God~and, if we enjoy any portion of his precious truths and we know that only a small portion of men and women truly have God's truth and even then, God's truth may be spread out over to many different men and women in scattered places of this world generally TOTALLY UNKNOWN BY THE WORLD. God's truth is given to those to whomsoever he will, and these folks are known as those who seek after it as men do hidden treasures...... EVEN MORE SO.

I'd have to disagree with the red highlighted statement.  I've seen Amo punch people here on this forum in the mouth for years.  He'd be completely happy if all the detractors from his cult would leave his little child board alone so he and his friends could use it as a fun echo chamber and security blanket.  He never answers questions directly.  He uses the exact same tactics as any other SDA when confronted with points he can't refute.  He'll tell them they don't believe in the scriptures.  He'll tell them they are going to burn in Hell if they don't change their ways.  He'll tell them the think Sunday is the New Christian Sabbath.  He'll point back at the people asking the question, or pointing out the problems with the doctrine instead of just dealing with the point itself.  Anything to keep from simply answering the questions.  He engages in endless feints, poisoning the well, and character assassination to muddy the water.  Again:  He does this with clear conscious thought and design to avoid dealing with the actual problem.   Every member of a cult deals with issues this way because they know, full well that their doctrine does not jive with actual orthodox biblical doctrine.  So they just keep turning it back on the other person and giving excuses for why they won't answer the question.  Their insecurity forces them to do so because rational thought and argument without blame-placing would illustrate a problem and cause cognitive dissonance.  People 100% secure in their beliefs don't resort to that kind of behavior.  If they 100% sure they were correct, they would have no need to do so.

He may "know" scripture, but he only knows how to view it and understand it by viewing it through an Ellen G. White filter he puts on before he even opens up his Bible.  it is clear he has no respect for anyone who does not believe the same way he does.  he shows contempt for these people every single day he comes on this forum.  A Christian isn't supposed to act that way, but those kind of rules magically don't apply to him.  I've been asking Amo for a decade now how he "keeps" the Sabbath, and for that entire decade, he's never answered the question.  He and I both know why.

[Amo]

I'd have to disagree with the red highlighted statement.  I've seen Amo punch people here on this forum in the mouth for years.  He'd be completely happy if all the detractors from his cult would leave his little child board alone so he and his friends could use it as a fun echo chamber and security blanket.  He never answers questions directly.  He uses the exact same tactics as any other SDA when confronted with points he can't refute.  He'll tell them they don't believe in the scriptures.  He'll tell them they are going to burn in Hell if they don't change their ways.  He'll tell them the think Sunday is the New Christian Sabbath.  He'll point back at the people asking the question, or pointing out the problems with the doctrine instead of just dealing with the point itself.  Anything to keep from simply answering the questions.  He engages in endless feints, poisoning the well, and character assassination to muddy the water.  Again:  He does this with clear conscious thought and design to avoid dealing with the actual problem.   Every member of a cult deals with issues this way because they know, full well that their doctrine does not jive with actual orthodox biblical doctrine.  So they just keep turning it back on the other person and giving excuses for why they won't answer the question.  Their insecurity forces them to do so because rational thought and argument without blame-placing would illustrate a problem and cause cognitive dissonance.  People 100% secure in their beliefs don't resort to that kind of behavior.  If they 100% sure they were correct, they would have no need to do so.

He may "know" scripture, but he only knows how to view it and understand it by viewing it through an Ellen G. White filter he puts on before he even opens up his Bible.  it is clear he has no respect for anyone who does not believe the same way he does.  he shows contempt for these people every single day he comes on this forum.  A Christian isn't supposed to act that way, but those kind of rules magically don't apply to him.  I've been asking Amo for a decade now how he "keeps" the Sabbath, and for that entire decade, he's never answered the question.  He and I both know why.

Quite a list of accusations you have composed Cobalt. Not to worry, God will vindicate them if they be true, or condemn you for bearing false witness if they are not. So be it.

If you consider pointing out that God calls the Sabbath His over and over again in scripture, and the danger in denying such punching people in the nose, then I guess I do punch people in the nose. I punch them in the nose regarding several other denials of conclusive scriptural statement as well. Of course I see this as defending truth and warning others of the danger they put themselves in by rejecting it, not punching people in the nose. God will judge between us. If all of your accusations quoted above are true, you shall be satisfied with God's judgment of them no doubt. It will all come out in the laundry.

If I and all other SDA's are guilty of only perceiving scripture through the eyes of EGW alone, what are all those who believed such before there ever was an EGW guilty of? What are those who believe the same today while knowing nothing of her writings, or paying them no attention guilty of?

[Hobie]

Gen. 6:5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

There is no written account of what God's Commandments, His Statutes, or His Laws were until Exodus. Yet the Holy Scriptures clearly say they existed. Your preaching that they didn't exist because God waited until Exodus to write them down is a religious doctrine made up by you.

The Commandment to Love thy neighbor as thyself was first written down in Lev. 19. So you would preach that such a commandment didn't exist until after the Exodus. Yet the Scriptures say;

1 John 3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

11 For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another.

12 Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous.

So your preaching that this Commandment didn't exist until Leviticus, because God didn't write it down, is a doctrine made up by you.

Gen. 18:19 For I know him, that he will command his children and his household after him, and they shall keep the way of the LORD, to do justice and judgment; that the LORD may bring upon Abraham that which he hath spoken of him.

Your preaching that God didn't have a "way", or that His Judgment didn't exist, or that God's Justice didn't exist until God had it wrote down in Exodus is made up by you.

Gen. 7:1 And the LORD said unto Noah, Come thou and all thy house into the ark; for thee have I seen righteous before me in this generation.

2 Of every clean beast thou shalt take to thee by sevens, the male and his female: and of beasts that are not clean by two, the male and his female.

There is not one mention of the creation of clean animals and unclean animals until Noah, and there was no written definition of the distinction until Leviticus. By your religious logic, the distinction between the two didn't exist until God had it written down. Yet not only did God create the distinction, but Noah knew what the difference was even though God didn't have it written down until years later.

Gen. 22:8 And Abraham said, My son, God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering: so they went both of them together.

These is not one place where God shared this Biblical truth in writing until centuries after Abraham offered his son. And yet Abraham knew of the Lamb God would provide.

All of these examples don't even compare to the Lord's Sabbath. Not only did God Create a 7 day week, but He blessed the 7th day and Sanctified it at creation. And when He had this Commandment written down, He actually references the creation of the 7th day and reminded folks that He Blessed it and Sanctified it. He didn't "Bless and Sanctify" it again in Exodus. You made that part up.

So I know God didn't write down that we are to Love Him with all our heart, or hate our brother without a cause, or tell us about the Lamb of God until Exodus, but there is evidence all over Genesis that His Laws, Commandments and Statutes existed. And He tells us of the sanctification of the 7th day at creation.

So I don't believe, because of all this evidence, that Abraham had God Commandments, Statutes and Laws, and that God shared with him about the Lamb of God, but not the 7th day He sanctified.

And I don't believe that Noah knew about God's Creation of clean and unclean animals, and his son's knew the commandment not to look at the nakedness of their father, but God didn't share that He sanctified and Blessed the 7th day at creation.

Jesus said we are live by "Every Word" of God. You are rejecting a lot of scripture here to support your religious doctrine that God's Blessing and sanctification of the 7th day only lasted 24 hours. Or that God's Commandments, Statutes, or Laws didn't exist because God hadn't written them down yet. And you have nothing from the Bible to support your claim here.

It's made up.

Very well written..