Author Topic: The history of how Sunday 'worship' came about.  (Read 669 times)

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Offline RB

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Re: The history of how Sunday 'worship' came about.
« Reply #35 on: Thu Aug 05, 2021 - 04:04:51 »
Red, KJV Only is as dumb as my tribe defending acapella only singing. It’s time to lay that down.
Never~Btw, I prefer acapella, I just cannot take the scriptures and command it. 

Concerning the KJV, I may soon start a thread on this very subject, one that I have never engage in on this forum, but maybe it's time to do so.
Quote from:  4WD on: Yesterday at 17:39:49
And that of course is the problem.  You quoted the KJV version of Scripture.  I could quote the scriptures verbatim also, RB; but I suspect you would not be convinced.  But what the heck, I will do it anyway:
By you quoting all those latter-day versions and they are in agreement, only proves to me they are just following each other's corruption of God's word. Later we can discuss this more in-depth.

Okay, let us get back to the subject of this thread, I have two to three posts coming in the next two days or so, the Lord willing, bear with me.
« Last Edit: Thu Aug 05, 2021 - 04:07:17 by RB »

Offline RB

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Re: The history of how Sunday 'worship' came about.
« Reply #36 on: Thu Aug 05, 2021 - 04:49:43 »
                                                Law or grace? You cannot preach both.......Christian or Sabbatarian? You Cannot Be Both 

Moses or Christ, whom shall we exalt as our prophet given to us to follow? You cannot follow both in justification of sinners, and the manner in which we should live our lives as true believers in Jesus Christ. Should we follow Paul or those early Judaizer converts we read about in Acts 15:1 who did not want to break off from Moses, yet also believed in Jesus Christ.
Quote from: THE HOLY GHOST
Acts 15:1,2~"And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.nWhen therefore Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and disputation with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas, and certain other of them, should go up to Jerusalem unto the apostles and elders about this question."
These followers of Moses are still with us, so we shall seek to address these questions:"Law or grace? You cannot preach both.......Christian or Sabbatarian? You Cannot Be Both"
Quote from: Paul
Galatians 4:9-11~But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage? Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years. I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labor in vain.”
They sought to observe these days, months and times, and years, for their ACCEPTANCE to God thinking them doing such deeds contributed to their salvation from sin and condemnation~but it actually proved they they had not as of yet understood the gospel of Jesus Christ.

The Jewish Sabbath, taken out of its place as part of Old Testament ceremonial worship for Israel only, is just a day of the week now, no different than Tuesday or Friday. It is only a day of the week! It has no value; it has no power; it has no role; it is a snare to the ignorant and superstitious. Leave it to Israel under the Old Testament to whom it was given as part of the law of Moses to Israel.


                                                                                                       The Lesson of Concision!
 
                                     
Quote
Philippians 3:2“Beware of dogs, beware of evil workers, beware of the concision.”

Superstitious Jews rejected Paul’s gospel of justification by Christ~Acts 15:1-2 quoted above. These Jewish legalists would not leave their rite of circumcision in the Old Testament, where it was given, and where it belonged. Much of Paul’s ministry was against this heresy. He even called for a church council of the apostles and elders to formally reject this superstition as we just read.

Paul despised these Jewish legalists, for they bewitched Gentile believers and perverted his gospel by requiring surgery for salvation. He ridiculed false teachers holding on to circumcision as dogs, evil workers, and the concision! Body mutilators! The Holy Spirit thus contemptuously mocked the revered Jewish rite of circumcision as mere body mutilation. See Philippians 3:2 and its context for this history.

There is no reason to pity apostates that corrupt the gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ. Sabbatarians are brothers of the concision! Regardless of what points we may agree on in other areas. It is vain superstition to require of Christians a rite that belongs in the Old Testament. Therefore, we call foolish Gentiles requiring Sabbath observance after the cross, calendar idiots, for these Jewish legalists exalt a day of the week rather than the Person and reality intended by it.   
 

                                                                                            Christian or Sabbatarian? You Cannot Be Both

Christians follow and glorify the Lord Jesus Christ~not Moses, not Israel, not the Law, not the Jewish Sabbath. Exalting these pitiful substitutes that passed away long ago rejects and dishonors Jesus Christ. Sunday, the Lord’s Day, is a weekly privilege to glorify Jesus Christ on the day He ordained for worship.
 
Bible Christians always take N.T. ordinances and tradition over O.T. ceremonial or national laws.

Seventh-Day Adventists and their imitators glorify Saturday. They exalt Moses and the O.T. over Jesus and Paul and the N.T. They choose shadows over reality … law over grace … carnal ordinances over spiritual … bondage over liberty. They exalt a calendar day over the finished work of Christ. They reject the Lord’s spiritual fulfillment and abolition of the Sabbath for a worldly yoke of bondage.

Paul’s greatest burden was fighting such Jewish legalists. False teachers followed him, creeping into churches and corrupting Gentile believers with O.T. superstition about circumcision, dietary laws, and the Sabbath. Most of Galatians and Hebrews, and much of Romans, Ephesians, Philippians, and Colossians, were written to oppose them.

These heretics chose Moses and meats over Jesus and His gospel. Rejecting celebration of the resurrected Lord Jesus Christ and His day for beggarly bondage of the Jewish Sabbath is heresy and superstition. We do not not care how sincere one is in this faith by practicing Jewish laws and commandments they are still heretics and must be rebuked.

Christians never assembled as Christians on Saturday after resurrection morning. The Lord of the Sabbath had abolished it at His resurrection, after nailing that carnal and worldly ordinance to His cross, when He became the reality and fulfillment of its shadow.

It was a new day …. literally, the first day of the week … spiritually, the gospel Day called Today … covenantally, the New Testament of the Lord Jesus Christ.

The issue is simple. What is the N.T. day for religious worship? Is it Saturday, a carnal ordinance Moses brought down from Mt. Sinai and imposed on Israel until Jesus and His apostles? Or is it Sunday, the day on which Jesus Christ appeared to His assembled apostles and blessed them, who all kept that day from then on?

Four simple, conclusive passages~Colossians 2:16-17; Galatians 4:9-11; Ist Corinthians 16:1-2; Acts 20:6-7~are more than enough for noble readers (Acts 17:11), but the following arguments add much more, also, answer objections.  Later RB

I greatly desire Hobie to answer my posts that are forthcoming since he started this thread.
« Last Edit: Thu Aug 05, 2021 - 04:52:55 by RB »

Offline 4WD

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Re: The history of how Sunday 'worship' came about.
« Reply #37 on: Thu Aug 05, 2021 - 06:23:16 »
By you quoting all those latter-day versions and they are in agreement, only proves to me they are just following each other's corruption of God's word.
No, they are all translating/interpreting from the Greek text.  You really need to know that there is neither of the words "of" or "in" in the Greek. 
Later we can discuss this more in-depth.
I don't know enough Greek to discuss which is the better translation; and I know that you most certainly do not know enough Greek to discuss which is better.

Offline RB

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Re: The history of how Sunday 'worship' came about.
« Reply #38 on: Thu Aug 05, 2021 - 08:13:12 »
I know that you most certainly do not know enough Greek to discuss which is better.
My brother, that's a very true statement~no argument from this man who cannot even master my own language.  ::smile::

Offline 4WD

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Re: The history of how Sunday 'worship' came about.
« Reply #39 on: Thu Aug 05, 2021 - 10:15:15 »
 ::smile:: ::smile:: ::smile::

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Re: The history of how Sunday 'worship' came about.
« Reply #39 on: Thu Aug 05, 2021 - 10:15:15 »



Offline Jaime

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Re: The history of how Sunday 'worship' came about.
« Reply #40 on: Thu Aug 05, 2021 - 10:58:13 »
I am not an expert either in Greek, but we have tools available to us to be able to quickly do a good word study. The original language is ALL IMPORTANT much so than feeble attempts to fit a beautiful language like Greek or Latin into a trainwreck like English. Also, evidence is coming forward of Hebrew  version of some of the gospels.

Offline 4WD

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Re: The history of how Sunday 'worship' came about.
« Reply #41 on: Thu Aug 05, 2021 - 11:18:19 »
I am not an expert either in Greek, but we have tools available to us to be able to quickly do a good word study. The original language is ALL IMPORTANT much so than feeble attempts to fit a beautiful language like Greek or Latin into a trainwreck like English. Also, evidence is coming forward of Hebrew  version of some of the gospels.
Yes, but the question of whether passages such as Romans 3:22 should be read as "faith IN Christ" or "faith OF Christ" are not answered by word studies.

Offline Jaime

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Re: The history of how Sunday 'worship' came about.
« Reply #42 on: Thu Aug 05, 2021 - 12:20:30 »
But the manuscript issue IS definitely ALL IMPORTANT on that. If I have a choice of using a translation with an older maniscript, that is a no brainer. Sticking with the KJV for some nebulous “it’s perfect” is not acceptable to me. I’m trashing the KJV everyday given that choice.
« Last Edit: Thu Aug 05, 2021 - 13:41:30 by Jaime »

Offline 4WD

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Re: The history of how Sunday 'worship' came about.
« Reply #43 on: Thu Aug 05, 2021 - 16:24:07 »
The oldest manuscripts are not necessarily the best.

Offline Jaime

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Re: The history of how Sunday 'worship' came about.
« Reply #44 on: Thu Aug 05, 2021 - 16:29:28 »
Why is that? That is why the NKJV, ESV and NASB and others differ on THIS issue with the KJV. I think the early one is right on THIS issue, since the Bible from beginning to end talks about OUR faith. It can move mountains, etc. Faith comes from hearing or reading the Word of God. etc. Faith IN Christ is the only thing that makes sense or EVERYONE would be saved. Salvation is a gift. It must be received, How, by OUR faith IN Christ and his Faithfulness. Christ is flawlessly faithful. Our faith IN him appropriates the free gift. Without faith it is impossible to please Him. Hebrews 11:6. Jesus's faith and faithfulness are never in question. The telling about the heroes of faith in Hebrews 11 was put there for a reason. to inspire the readers' faith AND ours.
« Last Edit: Thu Aug 05, 2021 - 19:26:04 by Jaime »

Offline 4WD

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Re: The history of how Sunday 'worship' came about.
« Reply #45 on: Thu Aug 05, 2021 - 19:26:51 »
It has been well over 60 years since my class in New Testament Introduction, but one of the things I remember was that the oldest manuscripts or pieces of manuscript are not necessarily the best and the closet to the original.  That is one reason why the Textus Reciptus (TR), the primary basis for the KJV, is not always the best Greek text.

Offline Jaime

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Re: The history of how Sunday 'worship' came about.
« Reply #46 on: Thu Aug 05, 2021 - 20:07:02 »
But the few “differences” in the KJV vs the NKJV was the older Alexandrian manuscript than was relied on with the NKJV.

Offline RB

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Re: The history of how Sunday 'worship' came about.
« Reply #47 on: Fri Aug 06, 2021 - 04:58:25 »
                                                                                             Christian or Sabbatarian? You Cannot Be Both

Sabbatarianismis a lie as far as being a Christian ordinance under the NT~ if Christians just carefully and prayerfully read the New Testament. It is merely a Jewish fable, like so many other of their doctrines. Consider the facts. The Sabbath was given only to Israel as a special gift. The N.T. epistles only condemn it, and they only command or commend the first day. The book of Acts condemns it, and instead commends the first day. Jesus honored the first day and ignored the Sabbath after His resurrection. Why does the rabble babble? Because Satan hates truth, especially about Jesus Christ. If he gets believers sidetracked with Moses and O.T. superstition, Jesus loses.

Are you a Christian? If you are, you know the Old Testament passed away, as its name proves (Hebrews 8:13). You should which section of the Bible is for you, and which section was for Israel. You know Leviticus was for the Levites, not the elders and deacons in your churches. You know Paul’s epistles are for Gentile Christians. Therefore, it does not matter how many times circumcision, sabbath, turtledoves, wave offering, goats, blood, altar, and incense occur in the O.T., they do not apply to you today. Those were beggarly elements of a Jewish form of worship and bondage that is now 2000 years dead. Thank you, blessed Lord Jesus.

Christians follow Jesus Christ and the apostles, not Moses.....Moses is dead and was buried by God~the same God brought our Lord Jesus Christ from the dead and his body showed no corruption as Moses' did, etc. The N.T. exalts Jesus the Son far above Moses the servant (John 1:17; Hebrews 3:3-6). Christians follow the teaching and tradition of His apostles (2nd Thessalonians  2:15; Galatians 1:8), not Moses. His apostles and prophets had the highest offices in the N.T., and they are the foundation of the N.T. church (Ist Corinthians 12:28; Ephesians 2:19-22; 3:1-7). Any contrary opinion is heresy (2nd Thessalonians  3:6; Romans 16:17-18; Ist John 4:6; Jude 1:3). Following John and Jesus, they changed God’s worship (Luke 16:16; John 4:20-24; Hebrews 2:1-4; 9:10). Using Jewish O.T. rules for religious practice today is not Christianity; someone needs to tell the SDA this blessed truth~Moses, David, or Isaiah had very little if understanding about N.T. Christianity, if any~ even though they prophesied of these days~even the holy angels desired to look into these days!  (Ist Peter 1:10-12).

Paul is the final authority for New Testament worship. Jesus Christ chose Paul to be the apostle of the Gentiles, and he and the other apostles understood his special role (Acts 9:15; 15:12; Romans 11:13; 15:15-21; Galatians 2:8-9) and confess what he said was hard to grasp~2nd Peter 3. Do we? Gentiles are to follow Paul in the way he followed Christ (Ist Corinthians 4:14-16; 11:1-2; Philippians 3:17). He is the pattern for proper Christian living and worship (Philippinas  4:9). If a practice cannot be found in Paul’s writing, it should not be followed. Paul condemned Sabbatarians and exalted the first day of the week, as the N.T. and these posts will clearly prove.

Paul’s gospel and ordinances were directly from Jesus Christ. Paul certified that the gospel he preached was directly from the Lord Jesus Christ (Galatians 1:11-12; Ephesians 3:1-7; Ist Corinthians 11:23; 14:37). Therefore, just as the Lord had commissioned and charged the original eleven apostles, Paul taught converts to observe exactly what the Lord Jesus Christ had commanded (Matthew 28:20). Since Paul condemned Sabbath obligations and ordered the churches to use the first day of the week for religious duties, we know that these were the express commands of the Lord Jesus Christ (Colossians 2:16-17; Galatians 4:9-11; Ist Corinthians 16:1-2).

Paul condemned Sabbatarians and the Sabbath. He condemned any obligation or requirement to keep Sabbath days, because Jesus had nailed that contrary ordinance to His cross, for it was only a shadowy figure of Him (Colossians 2:14,16-17). He declared that Jewish days were weak and beggarly elements, created religious bondage comparable to idolatry, and would ruin his gospel labors and their conversions (Galatians 4:8-11). He told the Hebrews that the gospel rest in Christ’s finished work of redemption had superseded the Sabbath (Hebrews 4:1-11). He concluded that the old carnal ways had been replaced (Hebrews 8:13; 9:10).

Paul exalted the first day of the week. This was not by chance when he stayed in Troas for a full week, neither he nor the church came together in a full assembly on the Sabbath. Instead, they assembled as a church on the first day of the week, which was the appointed time for that church to gather and hold the Lord’s Supper (Acts 20:6-7) The Lord's Supper on every first day of the week could be debatable, yet in Troas, they did so when Paul was there. That's a subject for another day.  Paul further ordered the churches of Corinth and Galatia to perform their religious duty of giving on the first day of the week (Ist Corinthians 16:1-2). This order by the apostle of the Gentiles confirmed the apostolic doctrine and tradition for setting aside the first day of the week for worship of God on the Lord’s Day.

The Sabbath was a special day to Israel only. This point is very important, but ignored or rejected by Sabbatarians. The Sabbath was never for Gentiles or Christians. It was only and specifically His special sign to Israel as His covenant nation under the O.T. (Exodus 31:12-18; Deuteronomy 5:15; Nehemiah 9:13-14; Ezekiel 20:12,20). These verses are plain and easily grasped. Read them! Believe them! Obey them! Gentile Christians under the N.T. have no obligation to keep Israel’s O.T. Sabbath laws. God never charged anyone else at any other time to keep the seventh day for any reason or purpose. No one observed the Sabbath before Mt. Sinai.

There is no mystery about the seventh day~maybe some wisdom for us to practice IF we so desire to do so without any obligation placed on other believers as a means of entering into life. It was never a memorial of creation, in spite of SDA’s quoting Ellen Harmon. God could have created in seven hours, minutes, seconds, or no time at all. He chose six days to create, resting the seventh, to give Israel weekly rest for bondage in Egypt (Exodus 23:12; Deuteronomy 5:12-15) and as I said above, we too should consider resting our bodies ONE out OF any SEVEN DAYS of the week~it would be different for different folks according to their vocation.  God made the Sabbath for the carnal and worldly comfort of the Jews, their slaves, and their livestock. Worship was not required. Jesus declared God did not make man for the Sabbath, thus limiting it to a mere aid for refreshment (Mark 2:27). Its purpose and value are only the practical reason stated here.

Later we shall continue... we are just getting started. Hobie where are you and Amo and any other Sabbatarian? I have around two to four more post and I'm finished.

« Last Edit: Fri Aug 06, 2021 - 09:23:32 by RB »

Offline Jaime

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Re: The history of how Sunday 'worship' came about.
« Reply #48 on: Fri Aug 06, 2021 - 06:04:44 »
Red, we are all very familiar with all these verses including the Col 2 passage. I don’t see Sunday being the day their. Paul was saying don’t let anyone judge you about religious days like New moons and Sabbaths. These were gentiles they had religious days too. And the judging could be both ways could it not, for honoring or not honoring thes days. And finally Sunday was not declared their either.

Acts 20:7 was describing the first day of the week yes, but not a worship service. Saturday at Sundown was the beginning of the first day of the week for them. They had just finished their Sabbath activities as evidenced by the lit candles in the upper room. A post Sabbath ceremony with candles. They broke bread which was more likely to be a meal and not a communion. Paul spoke to them until Midnight when Eutychus frll out of the window. If this had occurred Sunday morning, Paul would have spoken to them for about 15 or so hours. If until the next morning, it would have been over 21 hours. So to me this is an exceptionaly week prooftext of a First day of the week worship in lieu of Sabbath. He spoke a long time to them as he always would I’m sure, but a worship service? Not because they “broke bread”. And when was Paul NOT speaking to people about God everywhere and anytime?

Also special commands only to Israel? Does not Romans 11 say we are grafted into Israel? (The people of God not the nation)
« Last Edit: Fri Aug 06, 2021 - 07:50:58 by Jaime »

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Re: The history of how Sunday 'worship' came about.
« Reply #49 on: Fri Aug 06, 2021 - 07:08:03 »
Red, we are all very familiar with all these verses including the Col 2 passage. I don’t see Sunday being the day their. Paul was saying don’t let anyone judge you about religious days like New moons and Sabbaths. These were gentiles they had religious days too. And the judging could be both ways could it not, for honoring or not honoring thes days. And finally Sunday was not declared their either.

Acts 20:7 was describing the first day of the week yes, but not a worship service. Saturday at Sundown was the beginning of the first day of the week for them. They had just finished their Sabbath activities as evidenced by the lit candles in the upper room. A post Sabbath ceremony with candles. They broke bread which was more likely to be a meal and not a communion. Paul spoke to them until Midnight when Eutychus frll out of the window. If this had occurred Sunday morning, Paul would have spoken to them for about 15 or so hours. If until the next morning, it would have been over 21 hours. So to me this is an exceptionaly week prooftext of a First day of the week worship in lieu of Sabbath. He spoke a long time to them as he always would I’m sure, but a worship service? Not because they “broke bread”. And when was Paul. oT speaking to people about God everywhere and anytime?

Also special commands only to Israel? Does not Romans 11 say we are grafted into Israel? (The people of God not the nation)

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Re: The history of how Sunday 'worship' came about.
« Reply #50 on: Fri Aug 06, 2021 - 13:47:19 »
Acts 20:7 was describing the first day of the week yes, but not a worship service.
Worship services?  The overall tenor of the Bible is anti-worship-services.

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Re: The history of how Sunday 'worship' came about.
« Reply #51 on: Sat Aug 07, 2021 - 04:18:04 »
Red, we are all very familiar with all these verses including the Col 2 passage. I don’t see Sunday being the day there.
Jaime, please consider these few thoughts, which you know, nevertheless, it is all the Lord gave us to consider why the first day of the week is for NT believers to come together~and truly, all we need.

Apostolic churches assembled on the first day of the week~this cannot be refuted. Paul was in Troas a full week on his way to Jerusalem (Acts 20:6). But the church did not assemble on the Sabbath! This church had the practice of assembling on Sunday, as indicated by when, at which time Paul preached, since he would leave on Monday (Acts 20:7). Sabbatarians can fuss, but the church ignored the Sabbath and exalted Sunday. Read it! Believe it! Obey it! This N.T. text declaring church practice is far weightier than 100 O.T. verses to Israel about their Sabbath. Consider further that Moses commanded work for six days of the week, Sunday through Friday, but these saints did not work the first day! Are there two sins here? God forbid!

Apostolic churches took communion on the first day of the week. It was the established custom of the church at Troas to assemble on the first day of the week for breaking the communion bread, as indicated by when (Acts 20:7). The communion of a local church is described as breaking bread (Ist Corinthians 10:16-17; 11:24). It requires the whole church coming together into one place (Ist Corinthians 11:20,33-34), which is different from breaking bread and eating meat from house to house (Acts 2:46). Communion truly makes it the Lord’s Day, for the communion of the Lord’s Supper remembers the death of the Lord Jesus Christ!

Apostolic churches worshipped on the first day of the week. Paul ordered N.T. churches to do their religious giving on the first day of the week (Ist Corinthians 16:1-2). Why mention this by Paul if that day was not set aside for saints coming together in the spirit of 1st Corinthians 14. This was not a liberty or a suggestion; it was an order and practice of the early churches of Christ! Paul ordained Sunday as the day of the week for religious duties, making it apostolic doctrine and tradition. In formal, spiritual contemplation of God’s mercy, Gentile believers would have been very disposed on Sunday to give for poor saints in Judea. There is no order, nor even a hint, of N.T. churches doing anything on the Sabbath or any other day. Sunday was and is the day of worship, it is the Lord's day~why is it called the Lord's Day?

Very simple~it is the day he rose victorious over death and the grave to enter into his glory. Luke 24:26!

The New Testament gospels make it abundantly clear that he arose the FIRST DAY of the week putting the old Jewish Sabbath back into the OT where it belongs.
Quote from: God's testimony
Mark 16:1-9~"And when the sabbath was past, Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James, and Salome, had bought sweet spices, that they might come and anoint him. And very early in the morning the first day of the week, they came unto the sepulchre at the rising of the sun. And they said among themselves, Who shall roll us away the stone from the door of the sepulchre? And when they looked, they saw that the stone was rolled away: for it was very great. And entering into the sepulchre, they saw a young man sitting on the right side, clothed in a long white garment; and they were affrighted. And he saith unto them, Be not affrighted: Ye seek Jesus of Nazareth, which was crucified: he is risen; he is not here: behold the place where they laid him. But go your way, tell his disciples and Peter that he goeth before you into Galilee: there shall ye see him, as he said unto you. And they went out quickly, and fled from the sepulchre; for they trembled and were amazed: neither said they any thing to any man; for they were afraid.Now when Jesus was risen early the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom he had cast seven devils."
The other three gospels said the very same thing.

Also, every time our Lord Jesus appeared unto his disciples (around ten times, or so) it was ALWAYS on the the first day of the week, ALWAYS, never on any other day of the week at least it is not recorded, and certainly not on the Sabbath day as though that day had any relevance to the NT covenant of Jesus Christ.
Quote from: THE HOLY GHOST
John 20:19~"Then the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you."
On this day alone the very day he arose, he appeared to three to four different people or group of people, but ONLY on the first day of the week.
Quote from: THE HOLY GHOST
John 19:26~And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you.
AFTER eight days again would make it the next first day of the week~WHY was it important for the Spirit of God to tell us AFTER eight days again~"if" the first day of the week under the NT is not important? Well my friend, it IS important, it is the Lord's day that he officially conquered death and the grave victorious FOR US and where he entered into his glory where we shall soon follow him.

I would that Hobie would address some of these points since he started this thread. Amo, you can add your own so we can address them.
« Last Edit: Sat Aug 07, 2021 - 06:16:04 by RB »

Offline Jaime

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Re: The history of how Sunday 'worship' came about.
« Reply #52 on: Sat Aug 07, 2021 - 07:04:35 »
Yes Christ was risen on the first day. I don’t think anyone is contesting that. I disagree that Acts 20 is even a mediocre proof text of Sunday worship. Whatever happened there happened on the first day of the week in their time reckoning. It just happened on what we reckon as Saturday night. Breaking bread does not at all pinpoint a communion. And Paul speaking to groups of people does not indicate a “worship service”. Everywhere ppaul went on any day he was “preaching” to someone. I go to church on Sunday because it is a tradition not because scrioture bas convinced me. My wife and I also have a  inke study with a small group on the Sabbath. We try to rest, clear our minds of our worldly concerns and focus on God on the Sabbath. It is God’s appointed time, and he shows up and we are blessed. I believe Jesus fillup the Sabbath because the Jewish leaders had emptied it of God’s intended purpose. Jesus did not break the Sabbath (as the Jews accused) he explained or filled full it’s purpose and significance. It would have been problematic for Jesus to have actually broken the Sabbath. Like the rest of the Law in Mathew chapter 5 he raised the bar by adding Spirit to the letter of the Law to restore it as God intended, not to abolish it, but fill full to it’s intended “fullness” not leave it in it’s empty shell.
 
« Last Edit: Sat Aug 07, 2021 - 07:07:35 by Jaime »

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Re: The history of how Sunday 'worship' came about.
« Reply #53 on: Sat Aug 07, 2021 - 07:41:36 »
Worship services?  The overall tenor of the Bible is anti-worship-services.
+1

Offline Jaime

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Re: The history of how Sunday 'worship' came about.
« Reply #54 on: Sat Aug 07, 2021 - 08:01:13 »
Church buildings I would agree. Assembling and exhorting and praising God, yes we must. Where 2 or 3 are gathered.

Hebrews 10
24 And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:

25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.


Offline RB

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Re: The history of how Sunday 'worship' came about.
« Reply #55 on: Sat Aug 07, 2021 - 08:26:20 »
4WD to   Jarroh=Reply #50 on: Yesterday at 13:47:19

+1
While I fully agree true biblical worship for the most part has not one thing about going to the temple that was in Jerusalem or any outward building used for the gathering of folks professing to believe in God.

True worship is from the heart 24 four seven, and we come together to worship God "outwardly" in Psalms, spiritual songs, and hearing the scriptures preached and taught for our edification, and spiritual growth, but outward worship plays such a small part in worshipping God and truly has no value if the heart does not fear and love God and labors to take the scriptures and hide them within our hearts and there meditate day and night. Christianity is not part of our life, it IS OUR LIFE and who we are before all men, our children, and spouses, etc.
« Last Edit: Sat Aug 07, 2021 - 08:28:58 by RB »

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Re: The history of how Sunday 'worship' came about.
« Reply #56 on: Sat Aug 07, 2021 - 08:26:46 »
I don't know of a single verse in the NT that speaks to assembling together to worship.  As in Acts 2:42 they gathered together to study the apostles' teaching, to fellowship and to pray and to break bread, whatever breaking bread means.  But nothing there suggests that the purpose was to worship.  Worship is something that we should be doing as a regular on-going activity. Could some engage in worship while meeting together?  I don't see why not.  But that is not the purpose of meeting together.

I think that too many have the idea that the one hour get together on Sunday morning is all the worship they need to do and for the rest of the time there is no need for it.  That is just not true.
« Last Edit: Sat Aug 07, 2021 - 08:31:16 by 4WD »

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Re: The history of how Sunday 'worship' came about.
« Reply #57 on: Sat Aug 07, 2021 - 08:53:42 »
I agree, but when It’s hard not to worship when with other Christians . Of course worship is not announcements, 3 songs and a prayer before communion, then a sermon. Worship can and usually is introspective. It can also include encouragement and praising of God in song or telling what God has done in your life as exortation. It is neither just passive or a particular action. It definitely isn’t what typically happens in a church building…….usually. It certainly CAN BE  FOR an open minded group. But church building walls do not nullify the possiblity of worship occurring as we gather together to study, exhort and encourage one another.
« Last Edit: Sat Aug 07, 2021 - 15:08:04 by Jaime »

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Re: The history of how Sunday 'worship' came about.
« Reply #58 on: Sat Aug 07, 2021 - 11:44:59 »
Maybe a quick look into THE NATURE OF TRUE WORSHIP~would help all of us. I DO KNOW one thing that true worship is very connected with living by every word of God or as close to God's testimony we possibly can without trusting in our own wisdom, and understanding, and preferences.
Quote
Matthew 15:7-9~"Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying, This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me. But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men."
Later....RB

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Re: The history of how Sunday 'worship' came about.
« Reply #59 on: Sat Aug 07, 2021 - 12:51:52 »
Maybe a quick look into THE NATURE OF TRUE WORSHIP~would help all of us.
Worship is NOT rest.

Sabbath is about rest.   It's literally the one time when you shouldn't be doing that.

A good reason why you might want to assemble and worship on a different day. ::smile::

-Jarrod



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Re: The history of how Sunday 'worship' came about.
« Reply #60 on: Sat Aug 07, 2021 - 17:28:40 »
What is this Moses or Christ malarkey concerning God’s Sabbath? A completely false narrative.

Gen 2:1 Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them. 2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made. 3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

Where was Moses when God finished creation and blessed and sanctified it? He was 2000 years away from existence. What man is there who can undo what God has established? There was only one, because He was God, but He came to establish and fulfill the law of God as He conclusively stated. Away with this Moses or Christ malarkey.

Exo 16:21 And they gathered it every morning, every man according to his eating: and when the sun waxed hot, it melted.22 And it came to pass, that on the sixth day they gathered twice as much bread, two omers for one man: and all the rulers of the congregation came and told Moses. 23 And he said unto them, This is that which the LORD hath said, To morrow is the rest of the holy sabbath unto the LORD: bake that which ye will bake to day, and seethe that ye will seethe; and that which remaineth over lay up for you to be kept until the morning. 24 And they laid it up till the morning, as Moses bade: and it did not stink, neither was there any worm therein. 25 And Moses said, Eat that to day; for to day is a sabbath unto the LORD: to day ye shall not find it in the field. 26 Six days ye shall gather it; but on the seventh day, which is the sabbath, in it there shall be none. 27 And it came to pass, that there went out some of the people on the seventh day for to gather, and they found none. 28 And the LORD said unto Moses, How long refuse ye to keep my commandments and my laws? 29 See, for that the LORD hath given you the sabbath, therefore he giveth you on the sixth day the bread of two days; abide ye every man in his place, let no man go out of his place on the seventh day. 30 So the people rested on the seventh day.

Who told Moses of the holy Sabbath unto the Lord? God did. Who withheld the miracle of manna from heaven on the Lord’s Sabbath? God did. Who preserved the manna from heaven on the Sabbath which was gathered the day before, which rotted and was filled with worms any other time one tried to keep it until the next day? God did. Who did God say gave Moses and the Israelites the Sabbath? Himself. Away with this Moses or Christ malarkey.

Exo 20:1 And God spake all these words, saying,………………
8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: 10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: 11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.


Did Moses author the Ten Commandments, or speak them audibly to the entire nation of Israel from the mountain top with a voice of thunder that shook and trembled the mountain, which was ablaze and smoked like a chimney stack? Did Moses write them on tablets of stone with his finger, twice? No, God Himself did these things. God Himself established His moral law, which no man can or could undo, but the man who was God. This man Jesus Christ did no such thing. To the contrary, He conclusively stated the exact opposite intent of His life and ministry. Away with this Moses or Christ malarkey.

Exo 31:12 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, 13 Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying, Verily my sabbaths ye shall keep: for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that ye may know that I am the LORD that doth sanctify you. 14 Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it is holy unto you: every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death: for whosoever doeth any work therein, that soul shall be cut off from among his people. 15 Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD: whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death. 16 Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant. 17 It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed. 18 And he gave unto Moses, when he had made an end of communing with him upon mount Sinai, two tables of testimony, tables of stone, written with the finger of God.

Who again told Moses to tell the children of Israel to keep His sabbath, and gave him the Moral law written with the finger of God? Away with tis Moses or Christ malarkey in reference to the fourth commandment of God.

Neh 9:13 Thou camest down also upon mount Sinai, and spakest with them from heaven, and gavest them right judgments, and true laws, good statutes and commandments: 14 And madest known unto them thy holy sabbath, and commandedst them precepts, statutes, and laws, by the hand of Moses thy servant:

God personally made known to Israel His Ten Commandments, and His holy Sabbath, not Moses. All the other precepts, statues, and laws He allowed to be given by the hand of Moses. Away with this Moses or Christ malarkey.

Isa 56:1 Thus saith the LORD, Keep ye judgment, and do justice: for my salvation is near to come, and my righteousness to be revealed. 2 Blessed is the man that doeth this, and the son of man that layeth hold on it; that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and keepeth his hand from doing any evil. 3 Neither let the son of the stranger, that hath joined himself to the LORD, speak, saying, The LORD hath utterly separated me from his people: neither let the eunuch say, Behold, I am a dry tree. 4 For thus saith the LORD unto the eunuchs that keep my sabbaths, and choose the things that please me, and take hold of my covenant; 5 Even unto them will I give in mine house and within my walls a place and a name better than of sons and of daughters: I will give them an everlasting name, that shall not be cut off. 6 Also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to the LORD, to serve him, and to love the name of the LORD, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant; 7 Even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted upon mine altar; for mine house shall be called an house of prayer for all people. 8 The Lord GOD which gathereth the outcasts of Israel saith, Yet will I gather others to him, beside those that are gathered unto him.

Who promises the blessings above upon all who keep His Sabbath in the above prophecy concerning the establishment of the new covenant in the gathering together of the peoples of all nations in Christ Jesus our Lord? The Lord Himself through the prophet Isaiah after Moses was long long gone. Away with this Moses or Christ malarkey.

Isa 66:22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain. 23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD. 24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

God’s own will worship Him on His Sabbath in the new heavens and new earth which God will make after the judgment, but His own are not supposed to do so now because Jesus rose on Sunday? This even though neither Jesus, nor any of the apostles or prophets ever even suggested any such a thing? Away with this Moses or Christ malarkey.

Mat 12:1 At that time Jesus went on the sabbath day through the corn; and his disciples were an hungred, and began to pluck the ears of corn, and to eat. 2 But when the Pharisees saw it, they said unto him, Behold, thy disciples do that which is not lawful to do upon the sabbath day. 3 But he said unto them, Have ye not read what David did, when he was an hungred, and they that were with him; 4 How he entered into the house of God, and did eat the shewbread, which was not lawful for him to eat, neither for them which were with him, but only for the priests? 5 Or have ye not read in the law, how that on the sabbath days the priests in the temple profane the sabbath, and are blameless? 6 But I say unto you, That in this place is one greater than the temple. 7 But if ye had known what this meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice, ye would not have condemned the guiltless. 8 For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day. 9 And when he was departed thence, he went into their synagogue: 10 And, behold, there was a man which had his hand withered. And they asked him, saying, Is it lawful to heal on the sabbath days? that they might accuse him. 11 And he said unto them, What man shall there be among you, that shall have one sheep, and if it fall into a pit on the sabbath day, will he not lay hold on it, and lift it out? 12 How much then is a man better than a sheep? Wherefore it is lawful to do well on the sabbath days. 13 Then saith he to the man, Stretch forth thine hand. And he stretched it forth; and it was restored whole, like as the other. 14 Then the Pharisees went out, and held a council against him, how they might destroy him.

Luk 13:10 And he was teaching in one of the synagogues on the sabbath. 11 And, behold, there was a woman which had a spirit of infirmity eighteen years, and was bowed together, and could in no wise lift up herself. 12 And when Jesus saw her, he called her to him, and said unto her, Woman, thou art loosed from thine infirmity. 13 And he laid his hands on her: and immediately she was made straight, and glorified God. 14 And the ruler of the synagogue answered with indignation, because that Jesus had healed on the sabbath day, and said unto the people, There are six days in which men ought to work: in them therefore come and be healed, and not on the sabbath day. 15 The Lord then answered him, and said, Thou hypocrite, doth not each one of you on the sabbath loose his ox or his ass from the stall, and lead him away to watering? 16 And ought not this woman, being a daughter of Abraham, whom Satan hath bound, lo, these eighteen years, be loosed from this bond on the sabbath day? 17 And when he had said these things, all his adversaries were ashamed: and all the people rejoiced for all the glorious things that were done by him.

Luk 14:1 And it came to pass, as he went into the house of one of the chief Pharisees to eat bread on the sabbath day, that they watched him. 2 And, behold, there was a certain man before him which had the dropsy. 3 And Jesus answering spake unto the lawyers and Pharisees, saying, Is it lawful to heal on the sabbath day? 4 And they held their peace. And he took him, and healed him, and let him go; 5 And answered them, saying, Which of you shall have an ass or an ox fallen into a pit, and will not straightway pull him out on the sabbath day? 6 And they could not answer him again to these things.


What, our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ entered into controversy with Jewish leadership on several occasions regarding proper Sabbath observance, and never once told them or anyone else that He intended to do away with the seventh day Sabbath in the near future by His death and resurrection? Choosing instead to teach proper Sabbath observance and correct their overbearing and burdensome rules and regulations regarding it, even though none of this would matter in just a few years? Nonsense. Away with this Moses or Christ malarkey.

Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. 19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

There you have it, straight from the mouth of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. He did not come to abolish the law, but rather to fulfill it. God’s law will not change before heaven and earth pass, which they have not. Until that time at least, anyone who breaks God’s commandments or teaches others to do so, will  be called least in the kingdom of heaven. To the contrary, those who seek to keep them and teach others the same, shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. This teaching of Christ our Lord and Savior flies in the face of all those who will be called least in the kingdom of heaven who have taught and do teach that any of God’s commandments are now done away with. Away with this Moses or Christ malarkey concerning God’s Sabbath and His fourth commandment.

There is no such teaching anywhere in scripture. To the contrary, the holy scriptures teach the keeping of God’s commandments and identify those who do as His very own right up to the last books and chapter of holy scripture.

1Jn 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: 2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world. 3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. 4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him. 6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

1Jn 5:1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him. 2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments. 3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous. 4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith. 5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

Rev 12:7 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Rev 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.


Rev 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. 13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. 14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. 15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie. 16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.

Away with this Moses or Christ malarkey!

Offline RB

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Re: The history of how Sunday 'worship' came about.
« Reply #61 on: Sun Aug 08, 2021 - 04:07:20 »
Amo, thank you for responding and using scriptures which is more than many do. that being said~ first, you must at least address some of what I have said, before posting your views/understanding. I'll be happy to consider yours after you address some of mine, you do not have to address all since there are a few posts already. Remember, I did say that resting our bodies one of out seven days is a wise practice for man was not made for the sabbath, but the sabbath was made for man and even for the Ox that man used to plow his fields needed the same rest. 

I'll begin to reread your post and will post to you later after I see you have at least attempted to answer my posts. Before I leave I do have a thought or two about your post.
Quote from: Amo on: Yesterday at 17:28:40
What is this Moses or Christ malarkey concerning God’s Sabbath? A completely false narrative.
Nonesense? False narrative? False narratives usually stem from a person's  fears~the only fear present are men misleading God's children with their false doctrines of exalting works over grace, claiming to be Moses' disciples when we must 100% trust Jesus Christ and his finished work as the only means of our eternal redemption from sin and condemnation.

Again, Sabbatarianism should be nonsense! It would be, if there were not so many trying to make something serious of this Old Testament relic. It would be, if Christians read the New Testament. It is merely a Jewish fable. Consider the facts. The Sabbath was given only to Israel as a special gift. The N.T. epistles only condemn it, and they only command or commend the first day. The book of Acts condemns it, and instead commends the first day. Jesus honored the first day and ignored the Sabbath after His resurrection. Why does the rabble babble? Because Satan hates truth, especially about Jesus Christ. If he gets believers sidetracked with Moses and O.T. superstition, Jesus loses. Let Jesus Christ be glorified!


« Last Edit: Sun Aug 08, 2021 - 04:22:40 by RB »

Offline Amo

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Re: The history of how Sunday 'worship' came about.
« Reply #62 on: Sun Aug 08, 2021 - 07:46:39 »
Amo, thank you for responding and using scriptures which is more than many do. that being said~ first, you must at least address some of what I have said, before posting your views/understanding. I'll be happy to consider yours after you address some of mine, you do not have to address all since there are a few posts already. Remember, I did say that resting our bodies one of out seven days is a wise practice for man was not made for the sabbath, but the sabbath was made for man and even for the Ox that man used to plow his fields needed the same rest. 

I'll begin to reread your post and will post to you later after I see you have at least attempted to answer my posts. Before I leave I do have a thought or two about your post. Nonesense? False narrative? False narratives usually stem from a person's  fears~the only fear present are men misleading God's children with their false doctrines of exalting works over grace, claiming to be Moses' disciples when we must 100% trust Jesus Christ and his finished work as the only means of our eternal redemption from sin and condemnation.

Again, Sabbatarianism should be nonsense! It would be, if there were not so many trying to make something serious of this Old Testament relic. It would be, if Christians read the New Testament. It is merely a Jewish fable. Consider the facts. The Sabbath was given only to Israel as a special gift. The N.T. epistles only condemn it, and they only command or commend the first day. The book of Acts condemns it, and instead commends the first day. Jesus honored the first day and ignored the Sabbath after His resurrection. Why does the rabble babble? Because Satan hates truth, especially about Jesus Christ. If he gets believers sidetracked with Moses and O.T. superstition, Jesus loses. Let Jesus Christ be glorified!

First, I must do nothing simply because you say so, just as you must do nothing simply because I might say so. There simply is no scriptural narrative or authority for Sunday sacredness, or the transfer of God's seventh day Sabbath to the first day of the week. All such is extra biblical man made tradition. There would be nothing wrong with people deciding to establish and honor this tradition in celebration of Christ's resurrection, if they did not replace one of God's commandments with their tradition. Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ addressed this very problem among the Jews of His day.

Mat 15:3 But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition? 4 For God commanded, saying, Honour thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death. 5 But ye say, Whosoever shall say to his father or his mother, It is a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; 6 And honour not his father or his mother, he shall be free. Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition. 7 Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying, 8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me. 9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

Mar 7:5 Then the Pharisees and scribes asked him, Why walk not thy disciples according to the tradition of the elders, but eat bread with unwashen hands? 6 He answered and said unto them, Well hath Esaias prophesied of you hypocrites, as it is written, This people honoureth me with their lips, but their heart is far from me. 7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men. 8 For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do. 9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition. 10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death: 11 But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free. 12 And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother; 13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

Some day brother you will meet God face to face, will you then call the words which proceeded out of His own mouth and were written with His own finger, nonsense and Jewish fable? Or do you now deny the scriptural testimony concerning these events as well, as nonsense and Jewish fable? Who are you to declare these sections of scripture nonsense and Jewish fable, and other sections absolute truth in defense of your own positions? Do you think the word of God is your own personal tool to defend and uphold your own views and or arguments? Think again. It is a dangerous thing to toy with the word of God, or proclaim any of it as nonsense or fables. Why have you done this, please reconsider.

Sabbatarianism is another man made construct which does not exist in scripture. There is God's Sabbath established by Him at creation, and commanded by Him to be observed by His people as well as the rest of His Ten commandments from one end of scripture to the other. The creation of other false weekly sabbaths by humanity, is alone what allowed for the human construct of sabbatarianism. Your argument and narrative are purely human from the get go. they have nothing to do with God or His sacred word to humanity. You are free of course to show us sabbatarianism from scripture if you can, and then its condemnation as well, in accordance with your own views.

Exo 31:12 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, 13 Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying, Verily my sabbaths ye shall keep: for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that ye may know that I am the LORD that doth sanctify you. 14 Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it is holy unto you: every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death: for whosoever doeth any work therein, that soul shall be cut off from among his people. 15 Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD: whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death. 16 Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant. 17 It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed. 18 And he gave unto Moses, when he had made an end of communing with him upon mount Sinai, two tables of testimony, tables of stone, written with the finger of God.

Is your sabbatarianism message for the Jews as well, making the above testimony of scripture of none effect for them as well? Or do you just apply it to "Christianity"? As many suggest, there being different gospels and different standards for the Jews and Christians, even though scripture says Jesus Christ came to make both one. Is this your understanding?


Offline Amo

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Re: The history of how Sunday 'worship' came about.
« Reply #63 on: Sun Aug 08, 2021 - 09:58:04 »
Quote
The religion of Jesus Christ ushered in a new dispensation~and with it, this dispensation has his life, death, and resurrection as the proof that we are now living, not under Moses, but under the religion of Jesus Christ, the Son of the living God.

Do you really believe the nation of Israel was established by Moses, and their religion was as well? Whose instructions do you think Moses was following? Who spoke audibly to Israel, and wrote commands to Israel with His own finger, and instructed Moses regarding all religious and civil teaching? Moses was no more the founder of the old covenant Israel than Paul or any of the apostles were the founders of the present New Covenant. Jesus Christ was the founder and center of both for all truly enlightened by the Holy Spirit of God. I know you know this, but cannot acknowledge it apparently, while presenting your arguments against keeping the fourth commandment of God.

1Co 1:12 Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ. 13 Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul? 14  I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius; 15 Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name.

1Co 10:1 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; 2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; 3  And did all eat the same spiritual meat; 4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.


Heb 4:1 Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it. 2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it. 3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world. 4 For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works. 5 And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest.

The same God which lead Moses and the children of Israel, now leads us as one of us in Christ Jesus our Lord. Nothing He pronounced or established for Israel was nonsense or Jewish fable. Those things which are done away in Him were always meant to be so under the universal application of new covenant Israel composed of the faith of Abraham among the citizens of every race and nation of this earth. The commandments of God were not among those things done away with in Christ Jesus, as He conclusively stated when here as one of us, and as the scriptures testify from one end to the other. You are simply wrongly dividing the word of God. The authority of God's commandments is unmovable but by God alone, the condemnation of God's commandments has been done away with in Christ Jesus our Lord, for all those who choose to be in Him. This is not by way of abolishing the law, but rather establishing it.

Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: 4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 5  For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. 8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. 9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. 10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

Rom 3:21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; 22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: 23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; 24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: 25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; 26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. 27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. 28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. 29 Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also: 30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith. 31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

 

Offline Amo

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Re: The history of how Sunday 'worship' came about.
« Reply #64 on: Sun Aug 08, 2021 - 16:21:52 »
                                                Law or grace? You cannot preach both.......Christian or Sabbatarian? You Cannot Be Both 

Moses or Christ, whom shall we exalt as our prophet given to us to follow? You cannot follow both in justification of sinners, and the manner in which we should live our lives as true believers in Jesus Christ. Should we follow Paul or those early Judaizer converts we read about in Acts 15:1 who did not want to break off from Moses, yet also believed in Jesus Christ. These followers of Moses are still with us, so we shall seek to address these questions:"Law or grace? You cannot preach both.......Christian or Sabbatarian? You Cannot Be Both"They sought to observe these days, months and times, and years, for their ACCEPTANCE to God thinking them doing such deeds contributed to their salvation from sin and condemnation~but it actually proved they they had not as of yet understood the gospel of Jesus Christ.

The Jewish Sabbath, taken out of its place as part of Old Testament ceremonial worship for Israel only, is just a day of the week now, no different than Tuesday or Friday. It is only a day of the week! It has no value; it has no power; it has no role; it is a snare to the ignorant and superstitious. Leave it to Israel under the Old Testament to whom it was given as part of the law of Moses to Israel.


                                                                                                       The Lesson of Concision!
 
                                     
Superstitious Jews rejected Paul’s gospel of justification by Christ~Acts 15:1-2 quoted above. These Jewish legalists would not leave their rite of circumcision in the Old Testament, where it was given, and where it belonged. Much of Paul’s ministry was against this heresy. He even called for a church council of the apostles and elders to formally reject this superstition as we just read.

Paul despised these Jewish legalists, for they bewitched Gentile believers and perverted his gospel by requiring surgery for salvation. He ridiculed false teachers holding on to circumcision as dogs, evil workers, and the concision! Body mutilators! The Holy Spirit thus contemptuously mocked the revered Jewish rite of circumcision as mere body mutilation. See Philippians 3:2 and its context for this history.

There is no reason to pity apostates that corrupt the gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ. Sabbatarians are brothers of the concision! Regardless of what points we may agree on in other areas. It is vain superstition to require of Christians a rite that belongs in the Old Testament. Therefore, we call foolish Gentiles requiring Sabbath observance after the cross, calendar idiots, for these Jewish legalists exalt a day of the week rather than the Person and reality intended by it.   
 

                                                                                            Christian or Sabbatarian? You Cannot Be Both

Christians follow and glorify the Lord Jesus Christ~not Moses, not Israel, not the Law, not the Jewish Sabbath. Exalting these pitiful substitutes that passed away long ago rejects and dishonors Jesus Christ. Sunday, the Lord’s Day, is a weekly privilege to glorify Jesus Christ on the day He ordained for worship.
 
Bible Christians always take N.T. ordinances and tradition over O.T. ceremonial or national laws.

Seventh-Day Adventists and their imitators glorify Saturday. They exalt Moses and the O.T. over Jesus and Paul and the N.T. They choose shadows over reality … law over grace … carnal ordinances over spiritual … bondage over liberty. They exalt a calendar day over the finished work of Christ. They reject the Lord’s spiritual fulfillment and abolition of the Sabbath for a worldly yoke of bondage.

Paul’s greatest burden was fighting such Jewish legalists. False teachers followed him, creeping into churches and corrupting Gentile believers with O.T. superstition about circumcision, dietary laws, and the Sabbath. Most of Galatians and Hebrews, and much of Romans, Ephesians, Philippians, and Colossians, were written to oppose them.

These heretics chose Moses and meats over Jesus and His gospel. Rejecting celebration of the resurrected Lord Jesus Christ and His day for beggarly bondage of the Jewish Sabbath is heresy and superstition. We do not not care how sincere one is in this faith by practicing Jewish laws and commandments they are still heretics and must be rebuked.

Christians never assembled as Christians on Saturday after resurrection morning. The Lord of the Sabbath had abolished it at His resurrection, after nailing that carnal and worldly ordinance to His cross, when He became the reality and fulfillment of its shadow.

It was a new day …. literally, the first day of the week … spiritually, the gospel Day called Today … covenantally, the New Testament of the Lord Jesus Christ.

The issue is simple. What is the N.T. day for religious worship? Is it Saturday, a carnal ordinance Moses brought down from Mt. Sinai and imposed on Israel until Jesus and His apostles? Or is it Sunday, the day on which Jesus Christ appeared to His assembled apostles and blessed them, who all kept that day from then on?

Four simple, conclusive passages~Colossians 2:16-17; Galatians 4:9-11; Ist Corinthians 16:1-2; Acts 20:6-7~are more than enough for noble readers (Acts 17:11), but the following arguments add much more, also, answer objections.  Later RB

I greatly desire Hobie to answer my posts that are forthcoming since he started this thread.

More malarkey RB. One verse destroys you entire above argument, built upon the faulty premise of placing one of God's commandments spoken by His own mouth and written with His own finger in the same category as the instructions He gave specifically to Israel through the hand of Moses.

17 But as God has distributed to each one, as the Lord has called each one, so let him walk. And so I [a]ordain in all the churches. 18 Was anyone called while circumcised? Let him not become uncircumcised. Was anyone called while uncircumcised? Let him not be circumcised. 19 Circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing, but keeping the commandments of God is what matters. 20 Let each one remain in the same calling in which he was called.(NKJV)

Why will you compound that which the scriptures, moreover even the writings of Paul upon which most of your arguments are built, separate. Is it not because you use the scriptures to support your own chosen beliefs over and above what they actually teach. If circumcision and the fourth commandment are of the same law and nature, then why does Paul say circumcision or not does not matter, but the keeping of God's commandments does in the above verses? He says it because it is true, and God's Ten Commandments and circumcision are not in the same category at all. Which is why therefore your entire argument is scripturally moot. You are not rightly dividing the word of God.
« Last Edit: Mon Aug 09, 2021 - 03:09:41 by Amo »

 

     
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