author=Michael2012 link=topic=105259.msg1055155495#msg1055155495 date=1580546027]
Let me ask you some simple questions. I hope you'll have enough courage to face them and answer them. A direct answer would be enough.
Why Abraham was chosen by God, was it because of any work that he have done or was it because he have faith?
Faith without works is dead. Is this not Bible 101? Jesus pointed this out in another verse you do not have courage enough to consider. "Why do you call ME Lord, and do not the things I say?" So God chose Abraham "BECAUSE" Abraham obeyed, which is the only true "work of Faith".
So I answered your question, answer mine.
Is the Christ that said "Why do you call ME Lord, and do not the things I say" the same Christ which said to Abram, "Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee: Did Abram obey or not?
Which came first, God's election and call to Abraham or Abraham's faith?
It depends on whose perspective you are speaking to. If you are speaking to God's Perspective, God knows the end from the beginning. God knows who will listen to Him and who will not before He calls them, because according to scriptures, He has already seen their choice. So God chose Abram from the foundation of the world because HE knew Abram would obey Him, because in God's Realm, Abram already did. And God clearly tells us why HE chose Abram, "Because Abram obeyed".
But if you are speaking to Abram's perspective, He didn't know any of these things. He made a choice to follow God knowing it would anger those idolaters he had lived with. He didn't know where he was going, or how he was going to get there. He just bowed himself to his creator and obeyed.
So to Abram, God's call came first, then the choice to believe. "So Abram departed, as the LORD had spoken unto him;"
I have answered your question, so answer mine.
In your religion, do you believe God lied to Isaac when He told him why He blessed Abraham?
Which came first, God's promise to Abraham or Abraham's obedience?
Neither came first Michael. Nice try. God's Command came first, as with Eve. "Today, if you hear His Voice, harden not your hearts". Had Abram chosen to stay in the religion he was born into, there would have been no promise.
Gen. 12:1 Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee: 2 And I will make of thee a great nation,
There is the command. "So Abram departed, as the LORD had spoken unto him;" there is Abram's answer.
The implication of your religion that Abram could have rejected this command from God and still be blessed is foolishness and deceitful. And God's Word in it's entirely never teaches such hogwash. It teaches just the opposite.
Which came first, Abraham's faith or his obedience?
According to Scriptures, Faith and obedience are the same thing. One can not exist without the other. Abram's obedience showed his faith in God. Abram's faith was shown by his obedience to God.
Either way, the Commandment to Abram came first. Without the Command, there is no faith, and there is no obedience, there is no blessing.
What was accounted to Abraham for righteousness, was it faith or work?
Again, one can not exist without the other. The Command came first. Abram's choice following the command determined his righteousness, or lack thereof.
James 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? (The Command)
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works (Obeying the command) was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
Here is the exchange from God's Own Word's.
Gen. 22:16 And said, By myself have I sworn, saith the LORD, for because thou hast done this thing
, and hast not withheld thy son, thine only son:
17 That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies;
18 And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified
, and not by faith only.
But if I follow you and Red's religion, I am forced to destroy these Word's of God and omit them completely from my understanding. Why? Because your religion does not promote the same message as the God of the Bible. Do you care? The Pharisees didn't, the wicked kings of Israel didn't. Cain didn't. And from your posts I see you don't either.
But regardless of your purposeful refusals to accept these Word's of God, the Command comes before any of these things. As the Christ teaches.
Duet. 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death
, blessing and cursing
: therefore choose life
, that both thou and thy seed may live:
I have answered yet another of your endless questions. Now answer mine.
In your religion, did Abram choose to trust God? Or did God Make Abram HIS Friend?
If you know the right answers to those questions, you will somehow have an idea of God's salvation, though that is only a glimpse of it.
You have exalted yourself as Judge of God's Laws and Word's. Choosing which ones are worthy of your respect, and which ones are not. I do not accept your judgment as I have found it lacking on so many fronts. So your judgment of the "Right" answer is your judgment. If I answer the way your religion preaches, I will have a glimpse in how you see God, not how God defines Himself.
Do you consider Abraham's election by God and His promises to him, to mean that he have been saved by God?
Heb. 11:39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith,[
b] received not the promise[/b]: 40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect
1 Tim. 6:15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords; 16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.
Abraham is resting in hope, as is David.
Ps. 16:8 I have set the LORD always before me: because he is at my right hand, I shall not be moved. 9 Therefore my heart is glad, and my glory rejoiceth: my flesh also shall rest in hope.
10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell;(Grave) neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. 11 Thou wilt shew me the path of life: in thy presence is fulness of joy; at thy right hand there are pleasures for evermore.
Rom. 8:21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God
. 22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. 23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body. 24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
I believe that Abraham died in Hope that God would deliver his dead body from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. And all of those who merited God's Election are "waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body".
Has this happened yet for Abraham? "MANY" religions preach it has, but the scriptures say he is still waiting, as am I, for the return of our savior.