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Christian Interests => Organized Religion and Religious Movements Discussions => Seventh Day Adventist Forum => Topic started by: current occupant2 on Wed Jan 08, 2020 - 12:55:32

Title: The Jewish Sabbath .......
Post by: current occupant2 on Wed Jan 08, 2020 - 12:55:32
And the Jewish preparation day.

 If the Sabbath was given to all mankind and not just to the children of Jacob -  as the Bible clearly states in several places -  why is it that only the Jews have a preparation day for the Sabbath?


There laid they Jesus therefore because of THE JEWS' PREPARATION DAY; for the sepulchre was nigh at hand.
John 19:42 -

Title: Re: The Jewish Sabbath .......
Post by: beam on Wed Jan 08, 2020 - 15:08:03
And the Jewish preparation day.

 If the Sabbath was given to all mankind and not just to the children of Jacob -  as the Bible clearly states in several places -  why is it that only the Jews have a preparation day for the Sabbath?


There laid they Jesus therefore because of THE JEWS' PREPARATION DAY; for the sepulchre was nigh at hand.
John 19:42 -
Good thinking CO2.  John had to have known Jesus ushered in the new covenant that didn't have ritual days as a part of its rules.  John never criticized Paul for teaching that Christians are not under the Law of Moses.
Title: Re: The Jewish Sabbath .......
Post by: GB on Wed Jan 08, 2020 - 16:08:34
And the Jewish preparation day.

 If the Sabbath was given to all mankind and not just to the children of Jacob -  as the Bible clearly states in several places -  why is it that only the Jews have a preparation day for the Sabbath?


There laid they Jesus therefore because of THE JEWS' PREPARATION DAY; for the sepulchre was nigh at hand.
John 19:42 -

The Sabbath, as described by the Christ who created, Sanctified and Hallowed it, is a day of no work. Therefore, there must be things prepared on the 6th day so as to concentrate on "not polluting His Holy Sabbath" on the 7th. This foreshadows our walk so as to be prepared when He comes. (ie, 10 virgins)

Is. 58:13 If thou turn away thy foot from the sabbath, from doing thy pleasure on my holy day; and call the sabbath a delight, the holy of the LORD, honourable; and shalt honour him, not doing thine own ways, nor finding thine own pleasure, nor speaking thine own words:

14 Then shalt thou delight thyself in the LORD; and I will cause thee to ride upon the high places of the earth, and feed thee with the heritage of Jacob thy father: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it.

Passover is actually a day of preparation for the "First Day on unleavened Bread", another Holy Feast of the Christ. There were two Holy, Sanctified Sabbaths the week Jesus was crucified. One, started at sundown the day He was killed, the other after Mary purchased spices for the burial.

Also, The Sabbath's of the Holy Christ were HIS Sabbaths, not the Jews. He Gave His Sabbaths to the Jews who despised them and Polluted them. Like preaching that a man couldn't lawfully take a walk and pick a strawberry to eat on the His Holy Sabbath.





Title: Re: The Jewish Sabbath .......
Post by: Michael2012 on Mon Jan 27, 2020 - 11:45:08
The Sabbath, as described by the Christ who created, Sanctified and Hallowed it, is a day of no work. Therefore, there must be things prepared on the 6th day so as to concentrate on "not polluting His Holy Sabbath" on the 7th. This foreshadows our walk so as to be prepared when He comes. (ie, 10 virgins)

Is. 58:13 If thou turn away thy foot from the sabbath, from doing thy pleasure on my holy day; and call the sabbath a delight, the holy of the LORD, honourable; and shalt honour him, not doing thine own ways, nor finding thine own pleasure, nor speaking thine own words:

14 Then shalt thou delight thyself in the LORD; and I will cause thee to ride upon the high places of the earth, and feed thee with the heritage of Jacob thy father: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it.

Passover is actually a day of preparation for the "First Day on unleavened Bread", another Holy Feast of the Christ. There were two Holy, Sanctified Sabbaths the week Jesus was crucified. One, started at sundown the day He was killed, the other after Mary purchased spices for the burial.

Also, The Sabbath's of the Holy Christ were HIS Sabbaths, not the Jews. He Gave His Sabbaths to the Jews who despised them and Polluted them. Like preaching that a man couldn't lawfully take a walk and pick a strawberry to eat on the His Holy Sabbath.

Is this one of the laws written in your mind and heart GB?

Exodus 31:15 Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the sabbath of rest, holy to the Lord: whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death.
Title: Re: The Jewish Sabbath .......
Post by: Michael2012 on Mon Jan 27, 2020 - 12:03:06
Exodus 20:8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.

9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:

10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:

11 For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.


What work is meant in verse 9,10?

Who determines what work and is not work, relative to the Sabbath commandment?


Title: Re: The Jewish Sabbath .......
Post by: GB on Mon Jan 27, 2020 - 12:12:38
And the Jewish preparation day.

 If the Sabbath was given to all mankind and not just to the children of Jacob -  as the Bible clearly states in several places -  why is it that only the Jews have a preparation day for the Sabbath?


There laid they Jesus therefore because of THE JEWS' PREPARATION DAY; for the sepulchre was nigh at hand.
John 19:42 -

Matt. 15:3 But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?

8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.

9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

Gal. 1:13 For ye have heard of my conversation in time past in the Jews' religion, how that beyond measure I persecuted the church of God, and wasted it:

14 And profited in the Jews' religion above many my equals in mine own nation, being more exceedingly zealous of the traditions of my fathers.

Acts 7:51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.

52 Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers:

53 Who have received the law by the disposition of angels, and have not kept it.

John 7:19 Did not Moses give you the law, and yet none of you keepeth the law? Why go ye about to kill me?

Jer. 50:6 My people hath been lost sheep: their shepherds have caused them to go astray, they have turned them away on the mountains: they have gone from mountain to hill, they have forgotten their restingplace.

Jer. 5:31 The prophets prophesy falsely, and the priests bear rule by their means; and my people love to have it so: and what will ye do in the end thereof?

Mal. 2:7 For the priest's lips should keep knowledge, and they should seek the law at his mouth: for he is the messenger of the LORD of hosts.

8 But ye are departed out of the way; ye have caused many to stumble at the law; ye have corrupted the covenant of Levi, saith the LORD of hosts.

9 Therefore have I also made you contemptible and base before all the people, according as ye have not kept my ways, but have been partial in the law.

I don't think there is any doubt that the Jews had created their own Sabbaths and Laws. At least according to the Holy Scriptures. As far as the Christ's Sabbath's, that is, the Word of God which became Flesh, here is HIS Words.

Is. 56:6 Also the sons of the stranger, (Non-Jew) that join themselves to the LORD, to serve him, and to love the name of the LORD, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant;

7 Even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted upon mine altar; for mine house shall be called an house of prayer for all people.


Just because most of the Jews rejected the Christ's Sabbaths, and created their own version, as the Bible clearly teaches, shouldn't diminish the Christ's own Words regard His Sabbaths.



Title: Re: The Jewish Sabbath .......
Post by: GB on Mon Jan 27, 2020 - 12:21:33
Is this one of the laws written in your mind and heart GB?

Exodus 31:15 Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the sabbath of rest, holy to the Lord: whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death.

Yes, It is true scripturally that the wages of sin is death. And yes, Jesus doesn't want me to die again, after He shed His own Blood to cleanses my past sins. So He writes His Laws on the hearts of the truly repentant. All I need now is belief in Him and Faith enough to follow HIS instructions. That is, not just being a hearer of His Sayings, but a "Doer".
Title: Re: The Jewish Sabbath .......
Post by: GB on Mon Jan 27, 2020 - 12:33:25
Exodus 20:8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.

9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:

10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:

11 For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.


What work is meant in verse 9,10?

Who determines what work and is not work, relative to the Sabbath commandment?

Why this is a fascinating thing. You are already saved, already filled with the Holy Spirit, and you claim God has already written His Laws on your heart, correcting and judging others as deceitful and ignorant of the Christ's teaching. And yet you don't know how to Honor God's Sabbaths and keep them Holy?

How can this even be?




Title: Re: The Jewish Sabbath .......
Post by: Michael2012 on Mon Jan 27, 2020 - 12:54:31
Yes, It is true scripturally that the wages of sin is death. And yes, Jesus doesn't want me to die again, after He shed His own Blood to cleanses my past sins. So He writes His Laws on the hearts of the truly repentant. All I need now is belief in Him and Faith enough to follow HIS instructions. That is, not just being a hearer of His Sayings, but a "Doer".

You did not answer the simple question GB.

Is this one of the laws written in your mind and heart GB?

Exodus 31:15 Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the sabbath of rest, holy to the Lord: whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death.

I am quite sure that you know that in this particular commandment of God that he gave to the children of Israel, that the death spoken there is physical death. Other commandment does not have with them this death penalty, such as an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth.
Title: Re: The Jewish Sabbath .......
Post by: Michael2012 on Mon Jan 27, 2020 - 12:59:34
Quote from: Michael
Exodus 20:8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.

9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:

10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:

11 For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.


What work is meant in verse 9,10?

Who determines what work and is not work, relative to the Sabbath commandment?
Why this is a fascinating thing. You are already saved, already filled with the Holy Spirit, and you claim God has already written His Laws on your heart, correcting and judging others as deceitful and ignorant of the Christ's teaching. And yet you don't know how to Honor God's Sabbaths and keep them Holy?

How can this even be?

Nothing but your overused AD HOMINEM weapon.

What can we expect from you here?
Title: Re: The Jewish Sabbath .......
Post by: GB on Mon Jan 27, 2020 - 13:40:54
You did not answer the simple question GB.

Is this one of the laws written in your mind and heart GB?

Exodus 31:15 Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the sabbath of rest, holy to the Lord: whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death.

I am quite sure that you know that in this particular commandment of God that he gave to the children of Israel, that the death spoken there is physical death. Other commandment does not have with them this death penalty, such as an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth.

You don't understand why the scriptures were written, or their nature, or their purpose. If you did, you would not make such a foolish statement.

John 6:53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.

Will you also say this Blood and Flesh are physical?

Or do you only teach this for the commandments you have judged as unworthy of your respect.






Title: Re: The Jewish Sabbath .......
Post by: Michael2012 on Mon Jan 27, 2020 - 14:10:06
Quote from: Michael
You did not answer the simple question GB.

Is this one of the laws written in your mind and heart GB?

Exodus 31:15 Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the sabbath of rest, holy to the Lord: whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death.

I am quite sure that you know that in this particular commandment of God that he gave to the children of Israel, that the death spoken there is physical death. Other commandment does not have with them this death penalty, such as an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth.
You don't understand why the scriptures were written, or their nature, or their purpose. If you did, you would not make such a foolish statement.

That's another AD HOMINEM response.

So you know why the scriptures were written, their nature, their purpose. That's good for you, not if that's not true.

Quote from: GB
John 6:53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.

Will you also say this Blood and Flesh are physical?

Or do you only teach this for the commandments you have judged as unworthy of your respect.

Deviating from the question again?

Let me bring you back to the question and give you yet another opportunity to not evade.

Is this one of the laws written in your mind and heart GB?

Exodus 31:15 Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the sabbath of rest, holy to the Lord: whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death.

Death penalty is meant there. The Jews understand this very well. They were under such judgment since the exodus. It's the same death penalty for the sin of blasphemy, like in the case of Jesus whom they crucified to death.
Title: Re: The Jewish Sabbath .......
Post by: RB on Mon Jan 27, 2020 - 15:54:10
Yes, It is true scripturally that the wages of sin is death.
Spiritually speaking, you are dumber than a telephone post. You said that in response to Michael's words:
Quote from: Michael2012 on: Today at 12:54:31
Exodus 31:15 Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the sabbath of rest, holy to the Lord: whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death.

I am quite sure that you know that in this particular commandment of God that he gave to the children of Israel, that the death spoken there is physical death. Other commandment does not have with them this death penalty, such as an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth.
Pitiful!
Quote from: GB Reply #6 on: Today at 12:21:33
And yes, Jesus doesn't want me to die again, after He shed His own Blood to cleanses my past sins.
Michael would have more success dealing with my eleven years old grandson~at least he knows the difference between physical death and the second death~if he does not then I could teach him this is a few minutes~but with you, it's a losing cause.
Quote from: GB Reply #6 on: Today at 12:21:33
So He writes His Laws on the hearts of the truly repentant. All I need now is belief in Him and Faith enough to follow HIS instructions. That is, not just being a hearer of His Sayings, but a "Doer".
I have question for you and anyone else who may believe as you do~"WHY does God need to write his laws on your heart, if indeed it was YOU that repented and it was YOU that had faith enough to follow his instructions?" Under the New Covenant, we believe because of God's OATH and his PROMISES of GRACE because of his Son's obedience and faith SECURED that for HIS PEOPLE! You, sir, have run to the WRONG MOUNT for protection! Give me Mount ZION and you can have Mount Sinai.
Title: Re: The Jewish Sabbath .......
Post by: GB on Mon Jan 27, 2020 - 16:08:53
 author=Michael2012 link=topic=105259.msg1055155324#msg1055155324 date=1580155806]


Quote
So you know why the scriptures were written, their nature, their purpose. That's good for you, not if that's not true.

I know what the Bible says is the purpose and reason for the Scriptures. And I know you haven't a clue what that is, because of the foolish statements you keep making.

Quote
Deviating from the question again?

Let me bring you back to the question and give you yet another opportunity to not evade.

I asked a relevant question of you, and exposed your partiality where God's Word is concerned. The answer to the question you evaded, is my answer to your foolish question to me. In this way you will answer your own foolish question, and if you disagree with the answer, you will be arguing with yourself. So is the Blood of Christ that you must drink, physical, or Spiritual?

Quote
Is this one of the laws written in your mind and heart GB?

Exodus 31:15 Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the sabbath of rest, holy to the Lord: whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death.

Death penalty is meant there. The Jews understand this very well. They were under such judgment since the exodus. It's the same death penalty for the sin of blasphemy, like in the case of Jesus whom they crucified to death.

Wow, so then in your religion, God created the Law which condemned Jesus to death. The Jews were just following God's Laws. In other words, the Pharisees were just innocent victims of unjust Laws God created, and it was their "Obedience" to them which caused the Jews to first torture, then murder Jesus.

Is this your stated position? Or is it possible that you are once again deceived, and the Jews really didn't understand the Law, or the God which created them at all?

God did not write your opinion of His Laws on my heart, nor did He write the doctrines and commandments of men the Jews taught. So before I can answer your question, it is necessary that we understand God's Laws. I think the Prophets, inspired by the Spirit of Christ, and Jesus and Paul understood them, but you and the Pharisees, by your foolish statements, not so much.

While you are digesting this, maybe you might also tell us what the Pharisees version of God's Sabbath was, including what was unlawful in their version of this law to do?

Once you have accepted what the Scriptures teach about the Jews and God's Laws, then maybe we can proceed.


Title: Re: The Jewish Sabbath .......
Post by: GB on Mon Jan 27, 2020 - 16:20:56
 author=RB link=topic=105259.msg1055155329#msg1055155329 date=1580162050]
 
Quote
I have question for you and anyone else who may believe as you do~"WHY does God need to write his laws on your heart,

Two reason right of the bat.

 One is so we don't forget them as the Children of Israel did being surrounded by false religions who didn't teach them for centuries,

and two, So we can discern truth when white washed walls like you preach Paul called God's Commandments "Beggarly Elements" in the Scriptures.

Because He has written them on my heart, I know and believe that God's Laws are Spiritual as both Jesus and Paul said they were.

You and Michael don't believe this? Wow, what a surprise.

Title: Re: The Jewish Sabbath .......
Post by: Michael2012 on Tue Jan 28, 2020 - 03:44:46
So you know why the scriptures were written, their nature, their purpose. That's good for you, not if that's not true.
I know what the Bible says is the purpose and reason for the Scriptures.
Claiming and saying one knows why the scriptures were written, their nature, their purpose is one thing, but telling us what they are is another.

Quote from: GB
And I know you haven't a clue what that is, because of the foolish statements you keep making.

AD HOMINEM.

Quote from: GB
I asked a relevant question of you, and exposed your partiality where God's Word is concerned. The answer to the question you evaded, is my answer to your foolish question to me. In this way you will answer your own foolish question, and if you disagree with the answer, you will be arguing with yourself.

Cheap excuses.

Quote from: GB
So is the Blood of Christ that you must drink, physical, or Spiritual?

Not physical. How does that relate to the judgement regarding the commandment on the Sabbath in Exodus 31:15? Of course, I get it. You want the death penalty that goes with the commandment to be spiritual. But we can't play around with scriptures GB. Man can fool man and deceive man, but God can't be fooled and deceived. When God gave this commandment to Israel, He meant to actually put to death the offender. While sin makes the offender spiritually dead, so to speak, the death penalty in Exodus 31:15 is without doubt and without mistake, calls for the physical death of the offender.

The commandment was given by God to Israel and states that "whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death." It is clear and was clear to the Israelites that they shall put to death him who breaks the Sabbath law. To deny this is to deny the truth of God's words.

Quote from: GB
Wow, so then in your religion, God created the Law which condemned Jesus to death. The Jews were just following God's Laws. In other words, the Pharisees were just innocent victims of unjust Laws God created, and it was their "Obedience" to them which caused the Jews to first torture, then murder Jesus.

How could you even think of it that way, that the Pharisees were just innocent victims of unjust Laws God created, and it was their "Obedience" to them which caused the Jews to first torture, then murder Jesus? Unbelievable! May God have mercy for having such thoughts.

Don't you know the story, how Jesus was condemned to death by Israel? I know you do. Jesus committed no crime nor sin nor had broken the law, any law for that matter. He was framed and falsely accused by the chief priests, and elders, and all the council of Israel.

Matthew 26:65 Then the high priest rent his clothes, saying, He hath spoken blasphemy; what further need have we of witnesses? behold, now ye have heard his blasphemy. 66 What think ye? They answered and said, He is guilty of death. 

They falsely accused him of blasphemy that they may condemn him to death, the penalty that the law brings upon a blasphemer (Lev.24:16), that is, actual physical death.

Of course that is up to you if you believe differently.

Quote from: GB
Is this your stated position? Or is it possible that you are once again deceived, and the Jews really didn't understand the Law, or the God which created them at all?

Well, if you explain that truth away by thinking that the Jews didn't understand the law, so be it with you.

Perhaps, this too, you'll explain away just the same as you did with the commandments and judgments in Exodus 31:15 and Lev. 24:16

Numbers 15:32 And while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man that gathered sticks upon the sabbath day. 33 And they that found him gathering sticks brought him unto Moses and Aaron, and unto all the congregation. 34 And they put him in ward, because it was not declared what should be done to him. 35 And the Lord said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp. 36 And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the Lord commanded Moses.

Quote from: GB
God did not write your opinion of His Laws on my heart, nor did He write the doctrines and commandments of men the Jews taught. So before I can answer your question, it is necessary that we understand God's Laws. I think the Prophets, inspired by the Spirit of Christ, and Jesus and Paul understood them, but you and the Pharisees, by your foolish statements, not so much.

Yes He did not write anything in your heart.

Quote from: GB
While you are digesting this, maybe you might also tell us what the Pharisees version of God's Sabbath was, including what was unlawful in their version of this law to do?

Once you have accepted what the Scriptures teach about the Jews and God's Laws, then maybe we can proceed.

Since you are the supposed expert on that subject, go ahead and tell us.
   
Title: Re: The Jewish Sabbath .......
Post by: Michael2012 on Tue Jan 28, 2020 - 03:49:44
I have question for you and anyone else who may believe as you do~"WHY does God need to write his laws on your heart,

Two reason right of the bat.

 One is so we don't forget them as the Children of Israel did being surrounded by false religions who didn't teach them for centuries,

and two, So we can discern truth when white washed walls like you preach Paul called God's Commandments "Beggarly Elements" in the Scriptures.

Because He has written them on my heart, I know and believe that God's Laws are Spiritual as both Jesus and Paul said they were.

You and Michael don't believe this? Wow, what a surprise.

I'm not surprised with your knowledge GB.

Hebrews 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.

12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.


The answer can be found there in verse 11. Do you not see the answer?

Title: Re: The Jewish Sabbath .......
Post by: RB on Tue Jan 28, 2020 - 04:05:20

Two reason right of the bat.

 One is so we don't forget them as the Children of Israel did being surrounded by false religions who didn't teach them for centuries,

and two, So we can discern truth when white washed walls like you preach Paul called God's Commandments "Beggarly Elements" in the Scriptures.

Because He has written them on my heart, I know and believe that God's Laws are Spiritual as both Jesus and Paul said they were.

You and Michael don't believe this? Wow, what a surprise.

You are no more than a robber and a thief of the word of God. You did not answer the "main part" of my question to you. This along with many other reasons is why I stop posting to you in other threads. Again:
Quote from: RB on: Yesterday at 15:54:10
"WHY does God need to write his laws on your heart, if indeed it was YOU that repented and it was YOU that had faith enough to follow his instructions?"
I highlighted this part of the question in red the first time I asked you, so I know that you knew that this was the main part of my question.
Quote from: GB  Reply #14 on: Yesterday at 16:20:56
So we can discern truth when white washed walls like you preach Paul called God's Commandments "Beggarly Elements" in the Scriptures.
Really? Cannot sinners who are dead in trespasses and sins discern this as your Soteriology in your man-made religious theology preaches this lie? So, you truly DO NOT believe that God under the New Covenant writes his precious laws on the hearts of the very elect when He by the power of the Spirit regenerates sovereignly when he wills, and whom He wills, solely by his grace without any works of the law being in consideration thereof. I KNEW that you do not and just wanted others to see the same, whether or not they do depends on just how close they are in believing the same lie that you believe and trust in.
Quote from: GB Reply #14 on: Yesterday at 16:20:56
You and Michael don't believe this? Wow, what a surprise
Michael overall did a very good job in the last thread dealing with your lies in his posts that went unanswered by you several times when he made every honest attempt to answer your posts~ an honest and good heart is part of the new creation within a child of God, having the holy laws of God written in the hearts of the child of GRACE, .....yes, in the heart of the new man which is created after the image of Jesus Christ who SECURED that new man FOR THEM by HIS OBEDIENCE and FAITH! Praise be to God alone that this is so! I know this is strange words to your unregenerated ears!  So be it~spiritual lairs and thieves of God's precious word deserve no better.
Quote from: GB  Reply #14 on: Yesterday at 16:20:56
I know and believe that God's Laws are Spiritual as both Jesus and Paul said they were.

You and Michael don't believe this? Wow, what a surprise.
Oh, Michael and I believe the same from the law of our spiritual minds and take GREAT DELIGHT IN THEM~the ONLY reason why we believe this is because of the blessed truth that God by his holy oath and his precious promises of GRACE toward us through Jesus Christ SECURED our right to eternal life by his RIGHTEOUS SON'S RIGHTEOUSNESS being freely imputeth to our account, so in due time sometime during our life from conception to death, we are born of God's Spirit because of HIS OATH and PROMISE~ just as Issac also was born, who was a perfect type of ALL of the children of God's promises. See and ponder:
Quote from: Paul
Galatians 4:22-31~"For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman. But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise. Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar. For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children. But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all. For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband. Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise. But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now. Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman. So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free."
Michael and myself are children of the FREE woman, you are a child of the BONDWOMAN and by your own confession, you are very proud of your mother.

One question for you: What work did Issac do to secure his birth? You have no scriptural answer other than by saying not one work of obedience from us, if you have an honest heart.
Title: Re: The Jewish Sabbath .......
Post by: Michael2012 on Tue Jan 28, 2020 - 09:33:23
Michael and myself are children of the FREE woman, you are a child of the BONDWOMAN and by your own confession, you are very proud of your mother.

One question for you: What work did Issac do to secure his birth?

Yes we are RB. Thanks and praise be to God!

Galatians 4: 28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.

As to your question, anyone in his right mind knows the answer, Isaac did not do anything. Isaac of course does not exist yet before his birth. So, the question itself suggest the obvious answer, that is, NONE. It in fact show how foolish can one be to even think that Isaac can do something about it. Isaac can't do anything (as one dead), to secure his birth. I even feel weird in having to say and point this out.
Title: Re: The Jewish Sabbath .......
Post by: RB on Tue Jan 28, 2020 - 10:05:06
Yes we are RB. Thanks and praise be to God!
Michael, my brother, did you read and ponder Paul's words:
Quote from: Paul
Galatians 4:22-26~"For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman. But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise. Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar. For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children. But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all."
Maybe here I'll start another thread and consider these two covenants~ based upon Paul's teachings on the only two main covenants in the word of God.
Title: Re: The Jewish Sabbath .......
Post by: GB on Tue Jan 28, 2020 - 11:22:47
 author=Michael2012 link=topic=105259.msg1055155340#msg1055155340 date=1580204686]

Quote
Not physical.

Now that wasn't so hard Michael. The Word's of Jesus here were not physical.

Rom. 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

So then this means EVERY Law God gave Moses, right Michael? So then, the 4th Commandment is Spiritual, just as the command to eat the Christ's Flesh was Spiritual.

1 Cor. 10:1 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;

5 But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness.


So Michael, this would include those who polluted the Christ's Holy Sabbaths and were stoned to death.

6 Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted.

11 Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.

12 Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.

So according to Paul, who we know for sure was gifted with the Holy Spirit, These Scriptures are Spiritual, and are written as examples so we would learn not to do the same things they did, and be overthrown.


Quote
The commandment was given by God to Israel and states that "whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death." It is clear and was clear to the Israelites that they shall put to death him who breaks the Sabbath law. To deny this is to deny the truth of God's words.

So your ignorance regarding the very reason why these Scriptures were written is astounding. I knew you didn't know these things and that is why you keep making these absurd implications.

The implication of your obscene preaching that if I "Yield myself" to obey God where HIS Sabbaths is concerned, I am also a "debtor" to stone others to death who don't, is typical of your posts.

Of course, these example are Spiritual, and were written as examples for us. Paul said "I would not that ye should be ignorant" of these things.

So don't be ignorant Michael.

Quote
How could you even think of it that way, that the Pharisees were just innocent victims of unjust Laws God created, and it was their "Obedience" to them which caused the Jews to first torture, then murder Jesus? Unbelievable! May God have mercy for having such thoughts.


I am only going by your words Michael.

Quote
"Death penalty is meant there. The Jews understand this very well. They were under such judgment since the exodus. It's the same death penalty for the sin of blasphemy, like in the case of Jesus whom they crucified to death."

The Jews, like you, didn't understand God's Laws at all. There was not one Law of God that condemned Jesus. I see you are backtracking a little when you saw how ridiculous your statement was. Had the Jews obeyed God's Laws, instead of the Commandments of Men they taught for doctrines, they wouldn't have murdered the Christ.

7 But if ye had known what this meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice, ye would not have condemned the guiltless.

Quote
Well, if you explain that truth away by thinking that the Jews didn't understand the law, so be it with you.

Again Michael, still talking out of both sides of your mouth. On one hand you preach the Jews understood God's Laws, "Very Well" and that is why they murdered the Christ. Then when I expose the implications of this absurd statement, you act as if you didn't say it. But you turn right around and double down, and accuse me of "explaining the truth away" because I am telling you the truth, which is that the Jews DIDN'T understand God's Laws at all.

This religious tactic you employ is repeated over and over to the point where you make yourself look silly.


Quote
Numbers 15:32 And while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man that gathered sticks upon the sabbath day. 33 And they that found him gathering sticks brought him unto Moses and Aaron, and unto all the congregation. 34 And they put him in ward, because it was not declared what should be done to him. 35 And the Lord said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp. 36 And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the Lord commanded Moses.

These things happened to them as examples and were written for my admonition, so that I would not dishonor God and HIS Sabbaths as they did. At least, that is what the Bible says.

It wasn't written so I could go around killing folks in order to be fully compliant to His Sabbath Law. How many Non-Sabbath keepers did Jesus murder Michael? Is this because He rejected GOD's LAWS? After all, it does say "all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp". In your religion, is Jesus a sinner because He kept the Sabbath but didn't stone to death those who didn't?
 
The sad thing is that you can't even see the absurdity and the hypocrisy of your religious statements here.

And I am done treating you like a little boy who doesn't know any better.


 
Title: Re: The Jewish Sabbath .......
Post by: Michael2012 on Tue Jan 28, 2020 - 12:30:08
Michael, my brother, did you read and ponder Paul's words: Maybe here I'll start another thread and consider these two covenants~ based upon Paul's teachings on the only two main covenants in the word of God.

Been looking forward to that RB. It's an opportunity to show how brothers can discuss the things of the Spirit of God in a godly and loving way.
Title: Re: The Jewish Sabbath .......
Post by: GB on Tue Jan 28, 2020 - 14:04:53
 author=RB link=topic=105259.msg1055155342#msg1055155342 date=1580205920]


Quote
One question for you: What work did Issac do to secure his birth? You have no scriptural answer other than by saying not one work of obedience from us, if you have an honest heart.

I believe God's Word about this issue.

Gen. 12:1 Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee:

2 And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:

3 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.

4 So Abram departed, as the LORD had spoken unto him;



Gen. 26:2 And the LORD appeared unto him, (Isaac) and said, Go not down into Egypt; dwell in the land which I shall tell thee of:

3 Sojourn in this land, (Gerar) and I will be with thee, and will bless thee; for unto thee, and unto thy seed, I will give all these countries, and I will perform the oath which I sware unto Abraham thy father;

4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;

5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

6 And Isaac dwelt in Gerar: (As the Lord had commanded him)

Gen. 18:18 Seeing that Abraham shall surely become a great and mighty nation, and all the nations of the earth shall be blessed in him?

19 For I know him, that he will command his children (Isaac) and his household after him, and they shall keep the way of the LORD, to do justice and judgment; that the LORD may bring upon Abraham that which he hath spoken of him.

Once again, it seems your teaching, and what the God of the Bible teaches, are two different things..

Obedience to God is the very reason Isaac was blessed in the first place, at least according to the God of the Bible. In your religion, is God a liar because HE said He knew Abraham, and that Abraham would pass on God's Laws and Judgments, and HIS Ways to his children, including Isaac?

Or did Abraham pass God's Laws, Judgments, and Statutes along to Isaac, but Isaac rejected them because he knew he would be blessed whether he obeyed God or not?


Rom. 16:17 Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.

18 For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple.

19 For your obedience is come abroad unto all men. I am glad therefore on your behalf: but yet I would have you wise unto that which is good, and simple concerning evil.


You can't make the case that obedience had nothing to do with God's Covenant with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob using scriptures. You might be able to find some religious preacher who created this doctrine, but if a person is seeking truth from the Scriptures, obedience to God is the only difference between Abraham and Eve.






Title: Re: The Jewish Sabbath .......
Post by: RB on Tue Jan 28, 2020 - 14:44:32
I believe God's Word about this issue.
I asked you this question:
Quote from: RB on: Today at 04:05:20
One question for you: What work did Issac do to secure his birth? You have no scriptural answer other than by saying not one work of obedience from us, if you have an honest heart.
You came back with a post that never adressed my quesiton to you which proves that God has not written his law in your mind~you were very dishonest as your custom of posting is known by.
Quote from: GB on: Today at 14:04:53
Once again, it seems your teaching, and what the God of the Bible teaches, are two different things..

Obedience to God is the very reason Isaac was blessed in the first place, at least according to the God of the Bible.
What does this have to do with my question? Nothing at all. Obedience may very well be the reason why some of God's children are blessed above other children of God....this was not my question to you~but for sure, obedience was NOT the reason that Isaac's birth took place....no  Hermeneutical Gymnastics can make your gospel work~his birth came about by God's OATH and PROMISES from God to Abraham~ PERIOD! Even as the children of Jesus Christ spiritual birth is by God's oath and his promises of GRACE to them, based upon the obedience of Jesus Christ the Righteous One. Your gospel of works stinks to the high heaven and shall be cast down to hell and perish with all those who embrace it and fight against the gospel that exalts ONE PERSON'S RIGHTEOUSNESS for the remission of sins.
Quote from: GB on: Today at 14:04:53
You can't make the case that obedience had nothing to do with God's Covenant with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob using scriptures.
I shall take this challenge from you and we shall see.
Quote from: GB on: Today at 14:04:53
You might be able to find some religious preacher who created this doctrine, but if a person is seeking truth from the Scriptures, obedience to God is the only difference between Abraham and Eve.
Our faith and obedience is at best the EVIDENCE of our calling from God, scripturally, according to God's testimony of the truth~it is NOT the grounds for it~the only grounds for free justification of sinners sins is the birth, life, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ apart of ALL WORKS.
Title: Re: The Jewish Sabbath .......
Post by: GB on Tue Jan 28, 2020 - 14:59:17

Two reason right of the bat.

 One is so we don't forget them as the Children of Israel did being surrounded by false religions who didn't teach them for centuries,

and two, So we can discern truth when white washed walls like you preach Paul called God's Commandments "Beggarly Elements" in the Scriptures.

Because He has written them on my heart, I know and believe that God's Laws are Spiritual as both Jesus and Paul said they were.

You and Michael don't believe this? Wow, what a surprise.


I'm not surprised with your knowledge GB.

Hebrews 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.

12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.


The answer can be found there in verse 11. Do you not see the answer?

I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.

Who are the "They" Michael?

Matt. 24:4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. 5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I (Jesus) am Christ; and shall deceive many.

Are these the ones God writes HIS Laws on their heart?

Matt. 7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Are these the "they" that God's writes His Laws on their hearts? I mean they claim belief in Jesus, they give Him the credit for all their religious works. Can you answer me what is missing in their hearts?

Titus 1:15 Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled (Rebellion, disobedience that comes from within) and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled.

16 They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.

Are these people disobedient to God's Laws? Or another's?

Is the Sabbath of God a "good work" in your religion?

Rom. 16:17 Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.

18 For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple.

19 For your obedience is come abroad unto all men. I am glad therefore on your behalf: but yet I would have you wise unto that which is good, and simple concerning evil.

What if the reason why you don't understand God's Laws, is because they are not written on your heart? What if you have been led astray by modern preachers, just as the Jews were led astray by the modern preachers of His time?

What if it is religious doctrines and traditions of men that is written on your heart, and that is why you reject so many of HIS Judgments?

What if the same thing that happened to EVE, also happened to you? That is, first you are convinced that you are already gifted with eternal life, already saved as the serpent deceived Eve. Then you were convinced by an "other religious voice" that God's Commandments make you blind, and that you can not truly "SEE" unless you reject this judgment of God or that judgment of God?

Maybe that's why you don't believe God's Law is Spiritual. Maybe that is why you don't know about the Covenant God made with Levi. Maybe that is why you reject so many of His Judgments?

And if a person knows these things because God has written HIS Laws on their heart, should they not make every effort to help a brother snared by the same religious men that the Christ warned of over, and over and over and over and over?

Matt. 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:

25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.

26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:

27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.

1 Cor. 10:11 Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.

12 Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.


Verse 10 and 11 clearly answer some questions. But they present some as well.


Title: Re: The Jewish Sabbath .......
Post by: GB on Tue Jan 28, 2020 - 16:21:58
 author=RB link=topic=105259.msg1055155377#msg1055155377 date=1580244272]
Quote
I asked you this question:You came back with a post that never adressed my quesiton to you which proves that God has not written his law in your mind~you were very dishonest as your custom of posting is known by. What does this have to do with my question? Nothing at all. Obedience may very well be the reason why some of God's children are blessed above other children of God....this was not my question to you~but for sure, obedience was NOT the reason was Isaac's birth took place....no  Hermeneutical Gymnastics can make your gospel work~his birth came about by God's OATH and PROMISES from God to Abraham~ PERIOD!

Red, seriously.

God Promised to give Abraham a son because of Abraham's obedience. Had Abraham been like those of Sodom, would He have given him a son and blessed his generations after him?

I even posted where God explains "WHY" He gave Abraham Children.

Gen. 18:17 And the LORD said, Shall I hide from Abraham that thing which I do;

18 Seeing that Abraham shall surely become a great and mighty nation, and all the nations of the earth shall be blessed in him?

19 For I know him, that he will command his children and his household after him, and they shall keep the way of the LORD, to do justice and judgment; that the LORD may bring upon Abraham that which he hath spoken of him.

This was even before Abraham had any Children.

Now come on Red, surely even you must understand the truth of Isaac's existence. No child ever born creates itself. But God said HE gave Abraham a child because He knows Abraham will teach his children God's Laws, Commandments, Statutes, Judgments and ways.

Why is this truth so controversial to you?


Quote
Even as the children of Jesus Christ spiritual birth is by God's oath and his promises of GRACE to them, based upon the obedience of Jesus Christ the Righteous One. Your gospel of works stinks to the high heaven and shall be cast down to hell and perish with all those who embrace it and fight against the gospel that exalts ONE PERSON'S RIGHTEOUSNESS for the remission of sins. I shall take this challenge from you and we shall see. Our faith and obedience is at best the EVIDENCE of our calling from God, scripturally, according to God's testimony of the truth~it is NOT the grounds for it~the only grounds for free justification of sinners sins is the birth, life, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ apart of ALL WORKS.

It is the Christ's own Words that stink to you.

His promise to Abraham carries on to this day. Now there are "MANY" who come in Christ's Name, who preach that they are "Children of the Promise", just as there were religious men in Jesus time who preach the same.

John 8:39 They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.

So the "Gospel of works" that Jesus is clearly teaching here, is the stink that you despise. It is the obedience Abraham honored God with that resulted in the birth Isaac and the blessings God promised him and his children after him, that you despise. And why did God give Abraham a child? "For I know him, that he will command his children and his household after him, and they shall keep the way of the LORD, to do justice and judgment". Which Isaac did, and so did Jacob.

This is the truth of the scriptures which stinks to you.


My God is no respecter of person's Red. He calls who He calls. And He lays out HIS Path just as He did to Eve and Abraham. "Life and Death"! And we are to make a choice. Either HIM, or "other religious voices". EVE chose the "other religious voice", Abraham chose obedience. Eve chose death, Abraham chose life.

Religious voices have been working to convince folks that God's Laws are "Beggarly Elements" since the very first recorded deception. First, men are deceived into believing that they are already saved, already gifted with eternal life, as the serpent convinced Eve. Then they are deceived into believing God's Laws are "Beggarly Elements", as the serpent also convinced Eve.

 You have been snared to further this deception, and are upset with me because God's Word, written on my heart, has shown it to me.

I know offenses must come, so you will most likely continue to promote these falsehoods. But I am also obligated to point out these falsehoods, or at least open up conversations to discuss them, so that others might see and consider.




Title: Re: The Jewish Sabbath .......
Post by: Michael2012 on Wed Jan 29, 2020 - 03:43:41

Now that wasn't so hard Michael. The Word's of Jesus here were not physical.

Rom. 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

So then this means EVERY Law God gave Moses, right Michael? So then, the 4th Commandment is Spiritual, just as the command to eat the Christ's Flesh was Spiritual.

1 Cor. 10:1 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;

5 But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness.


So Michael, this would include those who polluted the Christ's Holy Sabbaths and were stoned to death.

6 Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted.

11 Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.

12 Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.

So according to Paul, who we know for sure was gifted with the Holy Spirit, These Scriptures are Spiritual, and are written as examples so we would learn not to do the same things they did, and be overthrown.

The implication of your obscene preaching that if I "Yield myself" to obey God where HIS Sabbaths is concerned, I am also a "debtor" to stone others to death who don't, is typical of your posts.

Of course, these example are Spiritual, and were written as examples for us. Paul said "I would not that ye should be ignorant" of these things.

Yes Paul said, "the law is spiritual but I am carnal, sold under sin." Do you know what Paul meant to say by that?

Exodus 31:15 Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the sabbath of rest, holy to the Lord: whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death.

Do you have the spiritual understanding of that commandment? One has to know what Paul meant by "the law is spiritual". Do you not still talk about the Sabbath in the carnal sense, treating it as being on a specific day of the week and according to specific regulations? That was how it was before Christ to the children of Israel, according to the law. Nothing new then, if that is still the case now, to those who take the law and keep it to the letter.

Scriptures also says that the law is but a shadow and not the reality. Can you tell us what that means to you?

Is not the law a shadow of which the body is Christ? That sure tells a lot. The law is but a shadow and Christ the reality. What do you think becomes of the shadow when the reality had come? What becomes of darkness when the light had come? Is it not overtaken and vanishes away? Is not Christ the fulfillment of the law? Is not Christ the end of the law?       

If the law written in stone, is but a shadow and not the reality, why do you then take said law to be that which is written by God in the minds and hearts of His people in the new covenant? So that, for example, you take the written commandment in Exodus 31:15, or perhaps the ten commandments written in Exodus 20, to be that which are written in your mind and heart. So what do you have in your mind and heart?

You speak of scriptures in 1 Cor.10, which speaks about the past experience of Israel with God. What Paul said of them is that, such things spoken in those scriptures had happened unto Israel for examples, and are written for our admonition. While in them is embodied spiritual lessons, they aren't spiritual events but are actual material and real experiences and events. Much in the same sense concerning the written law that God gave Israel. That while the law is spiritual, it is embodied in various and numerous practical material commandments, ordinances, regulations, judgments involving the physical body, the flesh, of man ~ works of the law.

Note: AD HOMINEMs skipped.

Quote from: GB
The Jews, like you, didn't understand God's Laws at all. There was not one Law of God that condemned Jesus. I see you are backtracking a little when you saw how ridiculous your statement was. Had the Jews obeyed God's Laws, instead of the Commandments of Men they taught for doctrines, they wouldn't have murdered the Christ.

7 But if ye had known what this meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice, ye would not have condemned the guiltless.

That's your opinion. And I perfectly understand why.

I backtracked to remind you of the truth concerning Jesus' crucifixion and death, and not what you make of it to be. You don't seem to believe that Jesus was falsely accused of being guilty of the sin of blasphemy. Well,...   

Are you implying that the commandment and judgment concerning the sin of blasphemy is the commandment of men? Are you suggesting that such commandment is not good and holy and not among those given by God to Israel?

Quote from: GB
Again Michael, still talking out of both sides of your mouth. On one hand you preach the Jews understood God's Laws, "Very Well" and that is why they murdered the Christ.

AD HOMINEM omitted.

Not so GB. It's a matter of comprehension and attitude of the heart.

Apparently, there is a misrepresentation of what I said. What I said is "Death penalty is meant there. The Jews understand this very well. They were under such judgment since the exodus. It's the same death penalty for the sin of blasphemy, like in the case of Jesus whom they crucified to death." So, it's about the death penalty GB.

Quote from: GB
Quote from: Bible
Numbers 15:32 And while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man that gathered sticks upon the sabbath day. 33 And they that found him gathering sticks brought him unto Moses and Aaron, and unto all the congregation. 34 And they put him in ward, because it was not declared what should be done to him. 35 And the Lord said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp. 36 And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the Lord commanded Moses.
These things happened to them as examples and were written for my admonition, so that I would not dishonor God and HIS Sabbaths as they did. At least, that is what the Bible says.

It wasn't written so I could go around killing folks in order to be fully compliant to His Sabbath Law. How many Non-Sabbath keepers did Jesus murder Michael? Is this because He rejected GOD's LAWS? After all, it does say "all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp". In your religion, is Jesus a sinner because He kept the Sabbath but didn't stone to death those who didn't?

AD HOMINEM omitted.

Perhaps, you take those things as examples for your admonition, so that you would not dishonor God and HIS Sabbaths as they did. That's good. But you are evading the truth there. Those scriptures proves that the death penalty that comes with the commandment to Israel regarding the Sabbath, is one that is real and practical.

And of course, you should not go around killing folks in order to be fully compliant to His Sabbath Law. You are not even an Israelite, a Levite at that, or are you? There were in Israel, at the old covenant time, who administer the Law given to them, such as this one concerning the Sabbath. They are the ones given the authority and sit in authority on what to do about such cases.

You asked "How many Non-Sabbath keepers did Jesus murder Michael? Is this because He rejected GOD's LAWS?"

None. Do you know why? Not that He rejected God's law GB. Or not that the law does not really mean what it says, when it said "The man shall be surely put to death", and that what it really means is spiritual death as you make of it to be. I have just shown you in Numbers 15:32-36, what God meant by it. Reject or accept that, that is yours to make.

Then why? Because as Jesus himself said "the Son of man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them."

You asked "is Jesus a sinner because He kept the Sabbath but didn't stone to death those who didn't?"

No, Jesus is not a sinner. I had already explained why in the paragraphs above why He didn't stone them.
Title: Re: The Jewish Sabbath .......
Post by: Michael2012 on Wed Jan 29, 2020 - 05:42:38
Quote from: Michael
I'm not surprised with your knowledge GB.

Hebrews 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.

12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.


The answer can be found there in verse 11. Do you not see the answer?

I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.

Who are the "They" Michael?

You ask this questions as if you haven't read the post wherein I discussed that. But before I go into that yet again, let me bring you right back to the issue at hand.

The issue comes from RB's question to you, "WHY does God need to write his laws on your heart?"

Your answer:

One is so we don't forget them as the Children of Israel did being surrounded by false religions who didn't teach them for centuries,

and two, So we can discern truth when white washed walls like you preach Paul called God's Commandments "Beggarly Elements" in the Scriptures.

My comment:

The answer can be found there in Hebrews 8:11. So, pointing it out here, it is that so that all shall know God.

Now to your side question, "Who are the "They" Michael?" The "them" in Hebrews 8:8 refers to all the children of Israel, as well as in the "their", "them", "they" in Hebrews 8:9-12. I know you take it differently, and no need for you to explain. We just have to leave it at that since we have debated far too much on that already. 

Quote from: GB
Matt. 24:4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. 5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I (Jesus) am Christ; and shall deceive many.

Are these the ones God writes HIS Laws on their heart?

No. They are hypocrites.

Quote from: GB
Matt. 7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Are these the "they" that God's writes His Laws on their hearts? I mean they claim belief in Jesus, they give Him the credit for all their religious works. Can you answer me what is missing in their hearts?

No they are not. Jesus was talking about false prophets in those passage, who come in sheep's clothing, but inwardly are ravening wolves.

Quote from: GB
Titus 1:15 Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled (Rebellion, disobedience that comes from within) and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled.

16 They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.

Are these people disobedient to God's Laws? Or another's?

They are hypocrites.

Quote from: GB
Is the Sabbath of God a "good work" in your religion?

Good, if with and by faith is done unto the Lord.

Quote from: GB
Rom. 16:17 Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.

18 For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple.

19 For your obedience is come abroad unto all men. I am glad therefore on your behalf: but yet I would have you wise unto that which is good, and simple concerning evil.

What if the reason why you don't understand God's Laws, is because they are not written on your heart? What if you have been led astray by modern preachers, just as the Jews were led astray by the modern preachers of His time?

Don't worry, that is not the case with me.

Quote from: GB
What if it is religious doctrines and traditions of men that is written on your heart, and that is why you reject so many of HIS Judgments?

Don't worry, that is not the case with me.

Quote from: GB
What if the same thing that happened to EVE, also happened to you? That is, first you are convinced that you are already gifted with eternal life, already saved as the serpent deceived Eve. Then you were convinced by an "other religious voice" that God's Commandments make you blind, and that you can not truly "SEE" unless you reject this judgment of God or that judgment of God?

Don't worry, that is the case with me as with Eve.

If you are that worried, perhaps you can first start asking those to yourself.

Quote from: GB
Maybe that's why you don't believe God's Law is Spiritual. Maybe that is why you don't know about the Covenant God made with Levi. Maybe that is why you reject so many of His Judgments?

Oh I do believe the law is spiritual GB. For you to even think that I don't tells me about your ability to read and comprehend what I am saying, if not, about your mind and heart.

Quote from: GB
And if a person knows these things because God has written HIS Laws on their heart, should they not make every effort to help a brother snared by the same religious men that the Christ warned of over, and over and over and over and over?

Depends what "these things' you are referring to.

Quote from: GB
Matt. 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:

25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.

26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:

27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.

1 Cor. 10:11 Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.

12 Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.


Verse 10 and 11 clearly answer some questions. But they present some as well.

....
Title: Re: The Jewish Sabbath .......
Post by: Michael2012 on Wed Jan 29, 2020 - 06:26:10
God Promised to give Abraham a son because of Abraham's obedience. Had Abraham been like those of Sodom, would He have given him a son and blessed his generations after him?

Not so.

God, by His grace and not by any works Abram had done, have chosen Abram and gave these promises:

Gen. 12:2 And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:

3 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.


And when Abram came to the land of promise, that is, Canaan, God appeared again unto Abram, and said, Unto thy seed will I give this land (Gen.12:7).

A son, that is a seed, even at this point was in view be given to Abraham, who didn't have one at this point, which later was revealed to be a son born of his wife Sara, that is, Isaac. And that was not because of anything or any work that Abraham had done, but because of God's will and purpose.

Quote from: GB
I even posted where God explains "WHY" He gave Abraham Children.

Gen. 18:17 And the LORD said, Shall I hide from Abraham that thing which I do;

18 Seeing that Abraham shall surely become a great and mighty nation, and all the nations of the earth shall be blessed in him?

19 For I know him, that he will command his children and his household after him, and they shall keep the way of the LORD, to do justice and judgment; that the LORD may bring upon Abraham that which he hath spoken of him.

This was even before Abraham had any Children.

Yes, and I have addressed that already in one of my post in the other thread, which, if I'm not mistaken, you just skipped and ignored.

I quote:

Quote from: Michael
Go and check out the Greek text of Genesis 18:19. Of the other English translations, here's one which have it nearest to a literal rendering:

Genesis 18:19 For I have known him, to the end that he may command his children and his household after him, that they may keep the way of Jehovah, to do righteousness and justice; to the end that Jehovah may bring upon Abraham that which he hath spoken of him.

Another is the NIV, which rendered this verse better, in modern English:

For I have chosen him, so that he will direct his children and his household after him to keep the way of the LORD by doing what is right and just, so that the LORD will bring about for Abraham what he has promised him."

I suggest you have an examination of that, at this point. It is critical in your understanding. NIV have it plain and clear.

Have you done that already? I guess not.

Gen. 18:19 does not say what you made of it to say. What it speaks about pertains to the truth that God had chosen Abram and to what end.
Title: Re: The Jewish Sabbath .......
Post by: RB on Wed Jan 29, 2020 - 09:06:54
Red, seriously.
I should be saying those very words to you since you have not as of yet directly answer my question~but I wait and deal with this later since you made a statement that will again let me confront you with the the same question.
Quote from: GB Reply #25 on: Yesterday at 16:21:58
God Promised to give Abraham a son because of Abraham's obedience. Had Abraham been like those of Sodom, would He have given him a son and blessed his generations after him?
GB, The only person I know of in the word of God that God gave a son based on their prayer and obedience was Hannah when he gave her Samuel~ I cannot think of another one right off of the top of my head. Hannah's womb was not dead as Sarah's womb was~Abraham's wife was past childbearing age. God had to work a miracle by his power in order for Sarah to give birth to a PROMISED SEED through whom Christ would come. Abraham's obedience was not the reason why Isaac was conceived and born to Sarah and Abraham. He was conceived and born by the power of the Spirit of God just like every elect child of Jesus Christ who was dead in trespasses and sins. I could say so much more but enough for now on this point.
Quote from: GB Reply #25 on: Yesterday at 16:21:58
I even posted where God explains "WHY" He gave Abraham Children.

Gen. 18:17 And the LORD said, Shall I hide from Abraham that thing which I do;

18 Seeing that Abraham shall surely become a great and mighty nation, and all the nations of the earth shall be blessed in him?

19 For I know him, that he will command his children and his household after him, and they shall keep the way of the LORD, to do justice and judgment; that the LORD may bring upon Abraham that which he hath spoken of him.

This was even before Abraham had any Children.
Really, before he had ANY CHILDREN? How about Ismael recorded for us in Genesis 16? Not only that, but Abraham had six more sons later on after Sarah's death.
Quote from: GB Reply #25 on: Yesterday at 16:21:58
Now come on Red, surely even you must understand the truth of Isaac's existence.
I most certainly do and it is recorded for us in Galatians four. Abraham, the father of the faithful and the illustrious hero of Jews, had two principal sons. Paul ignored Keturah’s six sons, for they did not affect his argument concerning the TWO COVENANTS and how each of his two primary sons represented the two main covenants taught in the holy scriptures~the manner in which each birth took place beautifully represents the nature of the two covenants upon which men profess to believe how eternal life is obtained in this world.  We hold fast that justification of a sinner is by GRACE ALONE through the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ apart from all energy of the flesh or works performed by the flesh. Just as God rejected Ismael who was born after the flesh, or by the energy of Abraham's flesh through a fruitful womb of his slave/bondwoman.
Quote from: GB Reply #25 on: Yesterday at 16:21:58
No child ever born creates itself. But God said HE gave Abraham a child because He knows Abraham will teach his children God's Laws, Commandments, Statutes, Judgments and ways.
God made a promise to Abraham way before we knew anything of Abraham, other than he came from a land where they worship other gods.
Quote from: Joshua
Joshua 24:2,3~"And Joshua said unto all the people, Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, Your fathers dwelt on the other side of the flood in old time, even Terah, the father of Abraham, and the father of Nachor: and they served other gods. And I took your father Abraham from the other side of the flood, and led him throughout all the land of Canaan, and multiplied his seed, and gave him Isaac."
Abraham was no different than his father's UNTIL God called him ALONE to go unto a promised land that he would give him and HIS SEED which was CHRIST as we know from the NT.
Quote from: Isaiah
Isaiah 51:2~"Look unto Abraham your father, and unto Sarah that bare you: for I called him alone, and blessed him, and increased him.
I could add more but enough to get my point across. What could be said of all of the faithful recorded in the scriptures could be said of children of God in our day as well.

I have a meeting and will come back to finish. 
Title: Re: The Jewish Sabbath .......
Post by: RB on Thu Jan 30, 2020 - 03:53:22
It is the Christ's own Words that stink to you.
GB, you remind me of Job's three friends.
Quote from: From the Spirit of God concerning Elihu
Job 32:3~"Also against his three friends was his wrath kindled, because they had found no answer, and yet had condemned Job."
You say that and not proving your case against me or any other person, only kindles the wrath of God, and Spirit-filled men and women toward you.
Quote from: GB on Tue Jan 28, 2020 - 16:21:58
His promise to Abraham carries on to this day.
No one would deny that truth in the sense in which it is intended to be understood which you have no clue.
Quote from: GB on Tue Jan 28, 2020 - 16:21:58
John 8:39 They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.

So the "Gospel of works" that Jesus is clearly teaching here, is the stink that you despise.
As Michael would say to you and rightly so: "Note: AD HOMINEMs skipped."
Quote from: GB on Tue Jan 28, 2020 - 16:21:58
It is the obedience Abraham honored God with that resulted in the birth Isaac and the blessings God promised him and his children after him, that you despise. And why did God give Abraham a child? "For I know him, that he will command his children and his household after him, and they shall keep the way of the LORD, to do justice and judgment". Which Isaac did, and so did Jacob.

This is the truth of the scriptures which stinks to you.
GB, Again Ismael was born BEFORE Isaac, so he had a son and that son was through his lack of trust and came about through him HELPING GOD to keep his oath and promises of grace to Abraham! The same today is this seen by all who add the works of the law/flesh so that they can glory in their flesh as though they lend God a helping hand in their salvation, thinking that God needed their help and this is seen in a wide scope from many different religious sects in Mystery Babylon. Selah
Quote from: GB on Tue Jan 28, 2020 - 16:21:58
And why did God give Abraham a child?
THROUGH SARAH dead womb? And why did he allow Hagar to have Ismael? We have our answers in Galatians chapter four, Mr. GB! So that ALL may see that ONLY the children of God's oath and promises are the true heir's of the world to come, with and THROUGH Jesus Christ his Righteous Son!
Quote from: GB on Tue Jan 28, 2020 - 16:21:58
My God is no respecter of person's Red.
In one biblical sense he is not~he does not respect the rich over the poor; as man does, wise over the unwise naturally speaking; certain nations over another as the Jew lovers believe, and whites over blacks; etc. But this does not mean that he has not chosen certain men to eternal life AMONG ALL THESE PEOPLE, for the scriptures are clear as to that sense that he has indeed. But that for another discussion on another day.
Quote from: GB on Tue Jan 28, 2020 - 16:21:58
He calls who He calls. And He lays out HIS Path just as He did to Eve and Abraham. "Life and Death"! And we are to make a choice.
GB, that's Old Testament theology under the first covenant! Again ONCE MORE let me ask you this question if that old covenant theology is still blinding which Adam and Eve WERE UNDER, then to what purpose is the New Covenant which is based on God's OATH and PROMISES which is seen in God writings his law IN THE HEARTS/MINDS of his people so that they can delight themselves in the law of God after the inward man? Please for once answer this question, but you can never do so without exposing your lying gospel which is under the curse of Almighty God according to Galatians chapter one.
Quote from: GB on Tue Jan 28, 2020 - 16:21:58
Religious voices have been working to convince folks that God's Laws are "Beggarly Elements" since the very first recorded deception.
In the very sense in which Paul said those words THEY ARE, but the fault is NOT with the law of God but their sinful and wicked hearts, that's why God gave a NEW COVENANT which is supported by God's OATH and PROMISES which the first covenant WAS NOT SO! The problem is in your darkened and blinded hearts of not being able to understand the TWO MAIN covenants in the word of God which Abraham's two principal sons beautifully represented per Paul from Galatians four. God's laws are NOT within themselves weak and beggarly, it is that man's lack of spiritual desire and power to DO THEM which prompt God to have a second covenant whereby he would secure eternal life for his chosen seed by his oath and promises of FREE GRACE to the seed of Jesus Christ. So, stop your AD HOMINEM, and be honest for once and put away that subterfuge spirit far from you if that be possible.
Quote from: GB on Tue Jan 28, 2020 - 16:21:58
You have been snared to further this deception, and are upset with me because God's Word, written on my heart, has shown it to me.
Sir, again did God write his laws on your heart SO THAT YOU COULD KNOW THE TRUTH, or was it written because YOU figure this thing out on your own and as a gift God wrote his laws on your hearts?  help me out here, and explain your self~or better yet, go ahead and truly show all that your gospel is a gospel where YOU can share the glory with God because it was YOU that found God, not the other way around! You are looking more like Ismael the more you talk and you are still attached to your mother's umbilical cord if you know what I'm saying.
Quote from: GB on Tue Jan 28, 2020 - 16:21:58
I know offenses must come, so you will most likely continue to promote these falsehoods. But I am also obligated to point out these falsehoods, or at least open up conversations to discuss them, so that others might see and consider.
Before the God of heaven, I truly trust that others might see and consider to the glory of Jesus Christ. The words of Red Baker are ended~Job 31:40
Title: Re: The Jewish Sabbath .......
Post by: GB on Thu Jan 30, 2020 - 13:11:11
 author=Michael2012 link=topic=105259.msg1055155394#msg1055155394 date=1580300770]
Quote
Not so.

God, by His grace and not by any works Abram had done, have chosen Abram and gave these promises:

Gen. 12:2 And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:

3 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.

So deceptive. Here, let me show you what happens when you don't deceitfully omit God's Words which detail the true event.

Gen. 12:1 Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee:

So what came first Michael? The blessing or the Commandment? The Commandment came first just as the Commandment came first with Eve. And what did Eve do? She rejected God's Word in favor of other religious voices.

What did Abraham do?

4 So Abram departed, as the LORD had spoken unto him;

Quote
And when Abram came to the land of promise, that is, Canaan, God appeared again unto Abram, and said, Unto thy seed will I give this land (Gen.12:7).

Why was Abraham in Canaan? Because He believed and obeyed God. No matter how you twist His Word's or how many scriptures you omit, this is an undeniable truth of the Scriptures.

Quote
A son, that is a seed, even at this point was in view be given to Abraham, who didn't have one at this point, which later was revealed to be a son born of his wife Sara, that is, Isaac. And that was not because of anything or any work that Abraham had done, but because of God's will and purpose.

That is what you preach. But God Himself exposes your teaching here as contrary to His Own description of these events.

Gen. 26:4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;

5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

So your religion which preaches "And that was not because of anything or any work that Abraham had done" is exposed as a false doctrine, not by my words but by the Words of the Christ Himself.

Quote
Yes, and I have addressed that already in one of my post in the other thread, which, if I'm not mistaken, you just skipped and ignored.

I address all your preaching, but you just ignore it claiming "personal attack".

Quote
I quote:

Have you done that already? I guess not.

There is no difference between "God knows Abraham" because He will teach his children HIS Ways, or God "Chose Abraham" because he will teach his children His Laws.

Quote
Gen. 18:19 does not say what you made of it to say. What it speaks about pertains to the truth that God had chosen Abram and to what end.

God tells you why He chose to Bless Abraham, but you reject HIS Word's in favor of other religious voices. Even Jesus understood the "works of Abraham" you preach did not exist.

John 8:39 They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.

James also understood these Biblical Truths that you preach against.

James 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? (As God Commanded Him)

22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works (Of obedience) was faith made perfect?

23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

It's just as the Christ said in the beginning. "If you do well, shall you not be accepted?"

And Again.

Deut. 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

And again;

Mark 8:34 And when he had called the people unto him with his disciples also, he said unto them, Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

Just as He called Abraham to do.

Gen. 12:1 Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, (Deny thyself) and from thy kindred,(Deny thyself) and from thy father's house, (Deny thyself) unto a land that I will shew thee: (And Follow ME)

You are wrong about what the Old And New Covenants of the Bible are, you don't know, nor do you care, about the Priesthood and the implication of God's Covenant with Levi on behalf of Israel, and you are preaching falsehoods when you preach that Abraham had no part in his own salvation.

Not because I think so, but because the Word's of God say so. Will you not be corrected?





Title: Re: The Jewish Sabbath .......
Post by: RB on Thu Jan 30, 2020 - 14:20:10
So deceptive. Here, let me show you what happens when you don't deceitfully omit God's Words which detail the true event.
Michael is more than able in answering his own post, but I must say a word about your first statement.

GB, God is much wiser than you give him the credit of being~putting you in charge or at least a protector of the truth of the gospel would be like putting a fox over the hen's house to protect them! He's going to devour every one of them if left unsupervised and challenged.   
Title: Re: The Jewish Sabbath .......
Post by: GB on Thu Jan 30, 2020 - 14:41:54
 author=RB link=topic=105259.msg1055155421#msg1055155421 date=1580378002]

GB believes

Quote
He calls who He calls. And He lays out HIS Path just as He did to Eve and Abraham. "Life and Death"! And we are to make a choice.


Quote
GB, that's Old Testament theology under the first covenant! Again ONCE MORE let me ask you this question if that old covenant theology is still blinding which Adam and Eve WERE UNDER,

This is your theology Red. It comes from ancient religious traditions of men who have always worked to diminish God's Commandments.

Gal. 4:22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.

23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.

24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.

25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.

26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

So your preaching that the Covenant in question was with Adam is another in a long line of Windy's that you promote in your religion.

And the bondage mentioned is Israel being forced to receive God's Good, Just and Perfect judgments, along with having to rely on atonement exclusively from Levite Priests who had corrupted HIS LAWS and created their own, having been leading God's People astray for centuries.

Quote
then to what purpose is the New Covenant which is based on God's OATH and PROMISES which is seen in God writings his law IN THE HEARTS/MINDS of his people so that they can delight themselves in the law of God after the inward man?

So finding fault with "them", the God of Abraham promised a New Covenant. One in which He Himself administers HIS perfect judgments and Commandments, by impressing them on the minds of the truly repentant. And He also promised to take over the Exclusive Priesthood duty of providing for the Atonement of sins.

Hebrews 7-10 details this New Covenant perfectly.

Heb. 7: 11 If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,)

Here is one place that shows one of the Priesthood duties that the Christ promised to take over. From His Appearance until now, we no longer have to rely on receiving God's Laws through a corrupt Priesthood.

 "what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?"

The Author is arguing against the old Priesthood that the Jews were still depending on. to paraphrase, "If the old Priesthood made men perfect, then why did the Christ promise a new one in Jer. 31?"

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12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.

This is the Promise, the New Covenant. But before Jesus could become the High Priest, it was necessary for the Priesthood Law to be changed.

13 For he of whom these things are spoken pertaineth to another tribe, of which no man gave attendance at the altar.

14 For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood.

Jesus was not a Levite, therefore, the Covenant God made with Levi on The Children of Israel's behalf, was by necessity, changed so as to allow someone other than a Levite to hold the Priesthood office. It's right there in your own Bible.

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Please for once answer this question, but you can never do so without exposing your lying gospel which is under the curse of Almighty God according to Galatians chapter one.

This is the answer from God's Word to your question. The Jews didn't accept the truth about the Changed Covenant God made with Israel in regard to how HIS Laws were administered, and how the sin's of His people were atoned for.

They were still preaching that these Old Testament Priesthood "Works of the law" were still necessary for Salvation. Paul fought with them his whole life. Telling them that no flesh was justified by these "Works of the Law", but by the hearing of Faith, as Abraham demonstrated.

But as Prophesied, religious men have continued to corrupt God's Laws to this day. Twisting scriptures, as did the serpent, to promote a religion in which God's Judgments are rejected in favor of men's own religious vision. The same as the Pharisees did.

Complete with their own definition of Holy and Clean, their own "Feasts unto the Lord", their own images of God in the likeness of some pretty long haired men's hair shampoo model,  All in Christ's name.

 Teaching that God's Laws make a person blind, burdened, and only by rejecting God's Judgments and following your own, can one truly see.

Mystery Babylon, the very religion the world accepts. Along with their images and religious judgments, and High Days that the entire world economy relies on.

 This is why the Christ said to "Come out of her".



Title: Re: The Jewish Sabbath .......
Post by: Michael2012 on Thu Jan 30, 2020 - 14:54:10
God, by His grace and not by any works Abram had done, have chosen Abram and gave these promises:

Gen. 12:2 And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:

3 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.

So deceptive. Here, let me show you what happens when you don't deceitfully omit God's Words which detail the true event.

Gen. 12:1 Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee:

So what came first Michael? The blessing or the Commandment? The Commandment came first just as the Commandment came first with Eve. And what did Eve do? She rejected God's Word in favor of other religious voices.

What did Abraham do?

4 So Abram departed, as the LORD had spoken unto him;

Nothing deceptive there GB, if you only try harder understanding what had been written. This is what I said "God, by His grace and not by any works Abram had done, have chosen Abram and gave these promises". So, I quoted the part in Gen. 12 which speaks of the "these promises" in my statement.

Now, you quoted Gen. 12:1, as though doing so makes your false accusation true. Well, it does not.

You asked "So what came first Michael? The blessing or the Commandment?". With reference to Gen. 12:1-4, here's the order.

Verse 1: God's choosing of Abram, and the charge of God to Abraham.
Verses 2 & 3: God's promises to Abram.
Verse 4: Abram's faith unto obedience

Clearly, what came first is God's choosing of Abram by grace and God's charge. Second, the promises of God to Abram. Then came last, is Abram's faith unto obedience.

Quote from: GB
Quote from: Michael
And when Abram came to the land of promise, that is, Canaan, God appeared again unto Abram, and said, Unto thy seed will I give this land (Gen.12:7).
Why was Abraham in Canaan? Because He believed and obeyed God. No matter how you twist His Word's or how many scriptures you omit, this is an undeniable truth of the Scriptures.

You asked "Why was Abraham in Canaan?". The complete answer to that is, because God had chosen him and charged him to obey his voice and keep His charge, and Abram in faith obeyed, and so God led him to that land of Canaan.

Quote from: GB
Quote from: Michael
A son, that is a seed, even at this point was in view be given to Abraham, who didn't have one at this point, which later was revealed to be a son born of his wife Sara, that is, Isaac. And that was not because of anything or any work that Abraham had done, but because of God's will and purpose.
That is what you preach. But God Himself exposes your teaching here as contrary to His Own description of these events.

Gen. 26:4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;

5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

So your religion which preaches "And that was not because of anything or any work that Abraham had done" is exposed as a false doctrine, not by my words but by the Words of the Christ Himself.

You cited Gen. 26:4-5, as if it refutes the truth that God had chosen Abram by grace. No, GB. That won't work. And please don't use the name of God in vain and make it appear that He is the one who does what it is you do.

Besides, I have exposed the error of this in my Reply #380 on the other topic thread. You should be making a counter refutation instead of just uselessly repeating it over and over again. 

In Gen. 26:4-5, because Abraham obeyed His voice, and had kept His charge to him, His commandments to him, His statutes, and His laws, God established His covenant with Isaac whereby He confirms and performs the oath which He sware unto Abraham. Now, it is not as though it was to Abraham's doing and credit that God established His covenant with Isaac here. For even this was promised to Abraham beforehand (Gen. 17).

Quote from: GB
Quote from: Michael
Yes, and I have addressed that already in one of my post in the other thread, which, if I'm not mistaken, you just skipped and ignored.
I address all your preaching, but you just ignore it claiming "personal attack".

Our posts testifies to the truthfulness or falsehood of that statement GB.

Quote from: GB
Quote from: Michael
Go and check out the Greek text of Genesis 18:19. Of the other English translations, here's one which have it nearest to a literal rendering:

Genesis 18:19 For I have known him, to the end that he may command his children and his household after him, that they may keep the way of Jehovah, to do righteousness and justice; to the end that Jehovah may bring upon Abraham that which he hath spoken of him.

Another is the NIV, which rendered this verse better, in modern English:

For I have chosen him, so that he will direct his children and his household after him to keep the way of the LORD by doing what is right and just, so that the LORD will bring about for Abraham what he has promised him."

Have you done that already? I guess not.

There is no difference between "God knows Abraham" because He will teach his children HIS Ways, or God "Chose Abraham" because he will teach his children His Laws.

Obviously you don't see the difference. Or perhaps, you don't want to see it. Due diligence GB. We ought to be faithful to the Greek text where the English Bibles we now read came from. As it is, you say there is no difference, when there clearly is.

Quote from: GB
Quote from: Michael
Gen. 18:19 does not say what you made of it to say. What it speaks about pertains to the truth that God had chosen Abram and to what end.
God tells you why He chose to Bless Abraham, but you reject HIS Word's in favor of other religious voices. Even Jesus understood the "works of Abraham" you preach did not exist.

John 8:39 They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.

James also understood these Biblical Truths that you preach against.

James 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? (As God Commanded Him)

22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works (Of obedience) was faith made perfect?

23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

It's just as the Christ said in the beginning. "If you do well, shall you not be accepted?"

And Again.

Deut. 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

And again;

Mark 8:34 And when he had called the people unto him with his disciples also, he said unto them, Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

Just as He called Abraham to do.

Gen. 12:1 Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, (Deny thyself) and from thy kindred,(Deny thyself) and from thy father's house, (Deny thyself) unto a land that I will shew thee: (And Follow ME)

You are wrong about what the Old And New Covenants of the Bible are, you don't know, nor do you care, about the Priesthood and the implication of God's Covenant with Levi on behalf of Israel, and you are preaching falsehoods when you preach that Abraham had no part in his own salvation.

Not because I think so, but because the Word's of God say so. Will you not be corrected?

Apparently you can't refute the truth of what I said regarding Gen. 18:19, that you bring up new issues, with the usual GB AD HOMINEM. One of your cover up tactics, another of which I'm reminded of is keeping silent or skipping the issue, like that of your error concerning the Passover relating to the tenth plague in Exodus 12.

Make separate threads about these new issues you bring up and let's have our discussion there.
Title: Re: The Jewish Sabbath .......
Post by: GB on Thu Jan 30, 2020 - 18:38:10
Michael is more than able in answering his own post, but I must say a word about your first statement.

GB, God is much wiser than you give him the credit of being~putting you in charge or at least a protector of the truth of the gospel would be like putting a fox over the hen's house to protect them! He's going to devour every one of them if left unsupervised and challenged.

Like you, Michael has a religion to promote and preserve. He didn't mention the commandment God gave Abram, nor did he acknowledge Abram's obedience to the command because both of these things are contrary to the religious doctrine he espouses.

That God picked Abraham out of the blue and blessed him based on some unseen standard unknown to humans in general. The same deception promoted by many who come in Christ's name. You know better, but preach these falsehoods anyway. Michael is just following the teaching, and really doesn't understand the implications of what he furthers.

I only point out the Word's of God that he omits from his religion, in hopes he will see what God really says, instead of just blindly following the religious masses.

A rebuke was in order for purposefully omitting two very important aspects of this example God had written for our admonition, in order to further a doctrine God does not teach. Your doctrine that we have no say or part in our own salvation, or obligation to deny our self when called.

I know you will not consider, but these studies really solidify my understanding by exercise of use. And your reaction to simply Biblical Truth are the Prophesies of the scriptures coming alive in my lifetime. It is truly a humbling experience.




Title: Re: The Jewish Sabbath .......
Post by: RB on Fri Jan 31, 2020 - 05:25:04
Like you, Michael has a religion to promote and preserve.
Every person that has ever lived promotes their understanding of God, for or against for the most part, either by their speaking, writing, or their lifestyle, even more so on such forums. But let me assure you that God's truth does not depend on feeble and unstable and at times unfaithful men for its preservation, just as we see in the life of the mighty Abraham father of all the faithful. God Almighty called Abraham out of a land of heathens who were "Polytheism" in their understanding of the Godhead to believing in Monotheism. Even when Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings in Genesis 14 met a greater man named Melchisedec, king of Salem, priest of the most high God~To whom also Abraham gave a tenth part of all; first being by interpretation King of righteousness, and after that also King of Salem, which is, King of peace! we know very little about this great man, which only proves that God is more than able to preserve his truth WITHOUT US, and in many cases more so for he can raise up men from wheresoever he so desires to do so and use the most feeble of them all to carry out his word so that it will not return void unto him. Satan works much harder to preserve his lies than God needs in order to accomplish his eternal purposes.
Quote from: GB Reply #35 on: Yesterday at 18:38:10
He didn't mention the commandment God gave Abram, nor did he acknowledge Abram's obedience to the command because both of these things are contrary to the religious doctrine he espouses.
The reason why is the same reason I have done little of that and it is because that is not the subject under consideration, pure and simple. If you desire to speak on the evidence of being a child of God is our LOVE for the commandments of God and our OBEDIENCE to them, then we both would whole heartily agree without much hesitation unless one makes them a CONDITION, for then one can easily push for works in order to obtain eternal life and that would go against the scriptures. You were dead wrong when you said:
Quote from: GB on: Yesterday at 13:11:11
You are wrong about what the Old And New Covenants of the Bible are, you don't know, nor do you care, about the Priesthood and the implication of God's Covenant with Levi on behalf of Israel, and you are preaching falsehoods when you preach that Abraham had no part in his own salvation.
You use the words save/saved/salvation with one wide brush to mean slavation from sin and condemantion when it is used in more than just that sense. Abraham did not have ANY PART in his salvation from sin and condemnation is so clearly stated in Romans 4~
Quote from: Paul
Romans 4:1-4~"What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt."
Abraham was legally justified by GRACE ALONE, EVIDENT by his faith which proves that he HAD BEEN justified in God's eternal counsel by the obedience of Jesus Christ through whom grace was given to him BEFORE the foundation of the world.  See and consider 2nd Timothy 1:9. Abraham's faith and godly obedience justified him BEFORE MAN and even in his own conscience, but NOT BEFORE GOD. This is what James speaks of in James 2; and Paul in Romans 5:1-3. I could keep going but enough for now on this precious and glorious truth.
Quote from: GB on: Yesterday at 18:38:10
That God picked Abraham out of the blue and blessed him based on some unseen standard unknown to humans in general. The same deception promoted by many who come in Christ's name. You know better, but preach these falsehoods anyway.
Not based on some unseen standard unknown to humans in general, but God did sovereignly elected Abraham according to his own will and purpose according to Ephesians chapter one, etc. But it was based upon the redemption and the wisdom of God purposed IN JESUS CHRIST God's Righteous Son.
Quote from: THE HOLY GHOST
Romans 3:20-25~"Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin. But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus."
GB, NOT based on some unseen standard unknown to humans in general~it IS witness by the LAW and the prophets! This shows that your understanding of the law of God is without spiritual understanding, for I NEVER hear you say much of CHRIST and his obedience, but it is always based on MAN'S WORKS in order to enter into eternal life.
Quote from: GB on: Yesterday at 18:38:10
these studies really solidify my understanding by exercise of use. And your reaction to simply Biblical Truth are the Prophesies of the scriptures coming alive in my lifetime. It is truly a humbling experience.
Your words in this quote should be used to define DECEPTION~and I might add a STRONG DELUSION per 2nd Thessalonians 2.

       

Title: Re: The Jewish Sabbath .......
Post by: Amo on Fri Jan 31, 2020 - 12:10:15
There is no question where, when, and by whom the seventh day sabbath was established. Neither is there any question whom this sabbath belongs to.

Isa 66:22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain. 23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.

Ezek 46:1 Thus saith the Lord GOD; The gate of the inner court that looketh toward the east shall be shut the six working days; but on the sabbath it shall be opened, and in the day of the new moon it shall be opened. 2 And the prince shall enter by the way of the porch of that gate without, and shall stand by the post of the gate, and the priests shall prepare his burnt offering and his peace offerings, and he shall worship at the threshold of the gate: then he shall go forth; but the gate shall not be shut until the evening. 3 Likewise the people of the land shall worship at the door of this gate before the LORD in the sabbaths and in the new moons. 4 And the burnt offering that the prince shall offer unto the LORD in the sabbath day shall be six lambs without blemish, and a ram without blemish.

Num 28:9 And on the sabbath day two lambs of the first year without spot, and two tenth deals of flour for a meat offering, mingled with oil, and the drink offering thereof: 10 This is the burnt offering of every sabbath,beside the continual burnt offering, and his drink offering.

Exod 20:10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:

Exod 31:13 Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying, Verily my Sabbaths ye shall keep: for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that ye may know that I am the LORD that doth sanctify you.

Deut 5:14 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, nor thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thine ox, nor thine ass, nor any of thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates; that thy manservant and thy maidservant may rest as well as thou.

Lev 19:3 Ye shall fear every man his mother, and his father, and keep my sabbaths: I am the LORD your God.

Lev 19:30 Ye shall keep my sabbaths, and reverence my sanctuary: I am the LORD.

Lev 26:2 Ye shall keep my sabbaths, and reverence my sanctuary: I am the LORD.

Isa 56:4 For thus saith the LORD unto the eunuchs that keep my sabbaths, and choose the things that please me, and take hold of my covenant; 5 Even unto them will I give in mine house and within my walls a place and a name better than of sons and of daughters: I will give them an everlasting name, that shall not be cut off. 6 Also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to the LORD, to serve him, and to love the name of the LORD, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant; 7 Even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted upon mine altar; for mine house shall be called an house of prayer for all people.

Ezek 20:12 Moreover also I gave them my sabbaths, to be a sign between me and them, that they might know that I am the LORD that sanctify them. 13 But the house of Israel rebelled against me in the wilderness: they walked not in my statutes, and they despised my judgments, which if a man do, he shall even live in them; and my Sabbaths they greatly polluted: then I said, I would pour out my fury upon them in the wilderness, to consume them. 14 But I wrought for my name's sake, that it should not be polluted before the heathen, in whose sight I brought them out. 15 Yet also I lifted up my hand unto them in the wilderness, that I would not bring them into the land which I had given them, flowing with milk and honey, which is the glory of all lands; 16 Because they despised my judgments, and walked not in my statutes, but polluted my sabbaths: for their heart went after their idols. 17 Nevertheless mine eye spared them from destroying them, neither did I make an end of them in the wilderness. 18 But I said unto their children in the wilderness, Walk ye not in the statutes of your fathers, neither observe their judgments, nor defile yourselves with their idols: 19 I am the LORD your God; walk in my statutes, and keep my judgments, and do them; 20 And hallow my sabbaths; and they shall be a sign between me and you, that ye may know that I am the LORD your God. 21 Notwithstanding the children rebelled against me: they walked not in my statutes, neither kept my judgments to do them, which if a man do, he shall even live in them; they polluted my sabbaths: then I said, I would pour out my fury upon them, to accomplish my anger against them in the wilderness. 22 Nevertheless I withdrew mine hand, and wrought for my name's sake, that it should not be polluted in the sight of the heathen, in whose sight I brought them forth. 23 I lifted up mine hand unto them also in the wilderness, that I would scatter them among the heathen, and disperse them through the countries; 24 Because they had not executed my judgments, but had despised my statutes, and had polluted my sabbaths, and their eyes were after their fathers' idols.

Ezek 22: 8 Thou hast despised mine holy things, and hast profaned my sabbaths.

Ezek 22: 26 Her priests have violated my law, and have profaned mine holy things: they have put no difference between the holy and profane, neither have they shewed difference between the unclean and the clean, and have hid their eyes from my sabbaths, and I am profaned among them.

Ezek 23:38 Moreover this they have done unto me: they have defiled my sanctuary in the same day, and have profaned my sabbaths.

Ezek 44:24 And in controversy they shall stand in judgment; and they shall judge it according to my judgments: and they shall keep my laws and my statutes in all mine assemblies; and they shall hallow my sabbaths.

Neh 9:13-14 13 Thou camest down also upon mount Sinai, and spakest with them from heaven, and gavest them right judgments, and true laws, good statutes and commandments: 14 And madest known unto them thy holy sabbath, and commandedst them precepts, statutes, and laws, by the hand of Moses thy servant:

Lev 23:3 Six days shall work be done: but the seventh day is the sabbath of rest, an holy convocation; ye shall do no work therein: it is the sabbath of the LORD in all your dwellings.


Mat 12:6  But I say unto you, That in this place is one greater than the temple. 7 But if ye had known what this meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice, ye would not have condemned the guiltless. 8 For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day.

There is no such a thing as the Jewish Sabbath. There were no Jews when God blessed and sanctified the day. After He established the Jewish nation, God gave His sabbath to His chosen people to keep. He also pronounced a blessing upon all who would keep His sabbath during the days of literal Israel of old. He also foretold the keeping of the sabbath by the Gentiles in prophecy concerning their salvation through Christ our Lord. He also foretold the observance of His sabbath in the new heaven and new earth. Jesus also prophesied of His followers keeping His sabbath in the future as the end approached.

The scriptures never refer to the sabbath as the Jewish sabbath. It is and has always been God's sabbath. Those who cannot or will not admit of this basic truth, simply cannot see the truth.














Title: Re: The Jewish Sabbath .......
Post by: GB on Fri Jan 31, 2020 - 17:28:48
 author=RB link=topic=105259.msg1055155453#msg1055155453 date=1580469904]

Quote
Every person that has ever lived promotes their understanding of God, for or against for the most part, either by their speaking, writing, or their lifestyle, even more so on such forums.

Yes, As with Zechariahs, and the Pharisees.



 Romans 3:20-25~"Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight:

There is a religion preaching to the world that this means "Loving God, and Loving our neighbor" and all that hangs on it..

I have tried to show you what the Word of God actually preaches in this regard, but you must omit these Word's in order to preserve your own religion.

In the "LAW" there was a covenant God made with Levi on behalf of the Children of Israel. In this "law", that Abraham didn't have, there were Priesthood "Works" REQUIRED for atonement and justification of sins.

Moses said "If a person sins, he shall take an sacrifice to the Levite Priest that will perform sacrificial "Works of the Law" to cleanse this man's sins. There was no other way to be justified. This is Biblical Fact.

If I were to follow your religion, I would have to believe that Moses said "if a man sins, he shall not commit adultery and his sins are forgiven. Or, "if a man sins, he shall keep the Sabbath Holy and his sins are forgiven. You preach that these are the "Works of the Law" for the remission of sins in the Old Covenant.

But this is untrue. There were "works of the Law" specifically designed for the atonement and justification of sins. These "Works of the Law" were to be performed exclusively by a Levite, who was appointed by another Levite to the Priesthood's office. This is the Covenant God made with the Children of Israel that Abraham didn't have.

The Jews had built a religion around the Priesthood as Jesus points out in Matt. 23. They refused to accept the Promise of Christ in Jer. 31, nor could they accept that Jesus was this Christ that made the promise.

AS a result, they continued to promote and require these same "Works of the law" for the remission of sins, telling the new converts that they needed to keep the Law of Moses, and have these "works of the Law" performed before their sins could be forgiven.

Quote
for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

The Law is designed to show God's definition of Holy, Clean, Righteousness, and unholy, unclean, and unrighteousness. The "Works of the Law" was a shadow of the Christ's sacrifice for us, "ADDED" to God's definition of sin because of sin. These "Works of the Law" for atonement were to be in effect until the Seed came.

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But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

After Jesus came, and became our High Priest, changing this Priesthood and it's "works of the Law" forever, we can see how Abraham was justified "Without these "works of the Law". God called Him and Abraham listened. "today, if you hear His voice, HARDEN NOT YOUR OWN HEART".



Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe:

Abram listened and obeyed God, believing, not that God's instruction was a burden, and "yoke of bondage" as the serpent, and many other religious voices preach. But because when he knew God, he glorified Him as God. Just as our perfect example, and author of our salvation did. "And being found in the fashion of a man, He became obedient unto death".

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for there is no difference: For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus."

Justified by Grace, not by bringing a turtle dove to the Levite Priest who then performed "Works of the Law" for remission of sins. WE have a New and Better way. Now instead of relying on corrupt human preachers for our "instruction in righteousness", we can go straight to God's Word and absorb it our self.

And we no longer have to take our offering of animals to the Levite Priest who would then perform sacrificial "works of the Law"  for the justification of our sins, We offer ourselves to God, a living sacrifice. We offer the sacrifice of humility and self denial, and we "Yield" ourselves servant's to God and HIS definition of clean, Holy, and Righteousness, no longer depending on our own definition, as we did before when we were all "Children of Disobedience".

Since you have been convinced that Paul didn't understand the Levitical Priesthood "Works of the Law" for remission of sins, you preach that Paul's is talking about the 2 greatest Commandments and all that hangs on them as being the "Works of the Law" the Jews were trying to force on the New Converts. This doctrine is absurd in many ways. First, it implies that the Jews were keep God's Commandments, which Jesus contradicts in EVERY WORD HE used to describe them. They were trying to be justified by "Works of the Law" of a Priesthood which had become old, and obsolete. A Priesthood which was taken over by the Christ Himself.

 Because of this, you believe that any obedience by choice is rejecting Grace. You even imply that humbling myself, and Yielding my self by being obedient to God is actually declaring that God needs help in saving me.

A more foolish declaration would be hard to find. When the Biblical Truth is without repentance, and obedience, there is no Salvation. As Paul also states. Rom. 2:13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified."

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GB, NOT based on some unseen standard unknown to humans in general~it IS witness by the LAW and the prophets! This shows that your understanding of the law of God is without spiritual understanding, for I NEVER hear you say much of CHRIST and his obedience, but it is always based on MAN'S WORKS in order to enter into eternal life.

Just as I said you believe. Even though the command to submit to God's Laws comes from HIM, not man. And the instruction to "choose Him" is an instruction given by HIM, not man. And the Laws we are told to obey over and over and over and over and over, are God's Laws, not mans.

And yet, when a man listens to God's Words and does them as Jesus did, and instructed, like Abraham did, you call this obedience "Man's Work".

The hypocrisy of this teaching is so glaring to me that I have a hard time even imagining a person can not see it. And yet, you can not.

Quote
Quote from: GB on: Yesterday at 18:38:10

these studies really solidify my understanding by exercise of use. And your reaction to simply Biblical Truth are the Prophesies of the scriptures coming alive in my lifetime. It is truly a humbling experience.

Your words in this quote should be used to define DECEPTION~and I might add a STRONG DELUSION per 2nd Thessalonians 2.

2 Thess. 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Red, God's Laws are not "Beggarly Elements" and Paul never says they are. The "works of the Law" that the Jews were promoting to the New Converts for justification of sins was not the 2 greatest commandments in the law, but the Atonement Laws ADDED "till the Seed should come. And yet it is you, not me, who preach such things.

Nothing you can say or believe will make these two religious doctrines of yours truth. And with these falsehoods, or "Leaven" as Jesus called them, as your foundation, everything you build on them and preach is untrue. There is no truth in them at all.

This is the "ad hominem" attacks as you and Michael teach, that Jesus gave to the Mainstream Preachers of HIS Time.

It is God's Love, that inspires me to spend so much time trying to have this Biblical discussion. But just as the Pharisees, your religious doctrines and traditions are more important than the truth of scripture. My hope is that someday, before it's too late, that you will believe the warning of the Christ, and examine your own preaching, instead of judging God's Word as unworthy of your respect.



Title: Re: The Jewish Sabbath .......
Post by: GB on Fri Jan 31, 2020 - 17:43:15
 author=Amo link=topic=105259.msg1055155475#msg1055155475 date=1580494215]


Quote
There is no such a thing as the Jewish Sabbath. There were no Jews when God blessed and sanctified the day. After He established the Jewish nation, God gave His sabbath to His chosen people to keep. He also pronounced a blessing upon all who would keep His sabbath during the days of literal Israel of old. He also foretold the keeping of the sabbath by the Gentiles in prophecy concerning their salvation through Christ our Lord. He also foretold the observance of His sabbath in the new heaven and new earth. Jesus also prophesied of His followers keeping His sabbath in the future as the end approached.

The scriptures never refer to the sabbath as the Jewish sabbath. It is and has always been God's sabbath. Those who cannot or will not admit of this basic truth, simply cannot see the truth.

You are mistaken my friend. There was most certainly a Jewish Sabbath taught for centuries. It wasn't God's Sabbath, it was the Jewish Sabbath. In it a man couldn't take a walk and pick an apple or ear of corn to eat.. This was not God's Sabbath.

The Jews had despised and corrupted and polluted God's Sabbath for years, and they teach this same Jewish sabbath to this day.

I hope you might consider this truth.


Title: Re: The Jewish Sabbath .......
Post by: Michael2012 on Sat Feb 01, 2020 - 00:33:58
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There were "works of the Law" specifically designed for the atonement and justification of sins.

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And we no longer have to take our offering of animals to the Levite Priest who would then perform sacrificial "works of the Law"  for the justification of our sins, We offer ourselves to God, a living sacrifice.

Quote
The "works of the Law" that the Jews were promoting to the New Converts for justification of sins was not the 2 greatest commandments in the law, but the Atonement Laws ADDED "till the Seed should come.

For the nth time, there is not such thing as justification of sins.

There is no scripture that justifies sin. God never justifies sin. God does not justify sin.
Title: Re: The Jewish Sabbath .......
Post by: Michael2012 on Sat Feb 01, 2020 - 02:33:47
There were "works of the Law" specifically designed for the atonement and justification of sins.

The Law is designed to show God's definition of Holy, Clean, Righteousness, and unholy, unclean, and unrighteousness. The "Works of the Law" was a shadow of the Christ's sacrifice for us, "ADDED" to God's definition of sin because of sin. These "Works of the Law" for atonement were to be in effect until the Seed came.

What Law are you talking about here? It seems you speak of it as referring to the commandments and judgements of God that He gave the children of God. Well, that would make every working that pertains to it then be the "works of the Law". Do you then here contradict your definition of "works of the Law" as only pertaining to the atonement of sin?
 
Quote from: GB
God called Him and Abraham listened.

You mention of Abraham's calling and obedience. Of his obedience you speak well. Yet you don't ever speak about Abraham before he was called. It seems that all of these things about Abraham are insignificant to you. But of course you know too well that they are not, for all scriptures is holy and of well meaning. You had been silent about his former life. Don't you acknowledge the truth that Abraham dwelt in Ur, with his father Terah and his kindred, and were worshiping other gods? You don't talk about his having been chosen by God. Don't you acknowledge the truth that he was chosen by God, and that was at a time when he was yet a sinner? You also don't talk about God's unmerited favor upon Abraham, nor God's will and purpose in him, concerning God's election of him. Don't you acknowledge the truth about all these concerning Abraham?

Let me ask you some simple questions. I hope you'll have enough courage to face them and answer them. A direct answer would be enough.
 
Why Abraham was chosen by God, was it because of any work that he have done or was it because he have faith?

Which came first, God's election and call to Abraham or Abraham's faith?
Which came first, God's promise to Abraham or Abraham's obedience?
Which came first, Abraham's faith or his obedience?

What was accounted to Abraham for righteousness, was it faith or work?

If you know the right answers to those questions, you will somehow have an idea of God's salvation, though that is only a glimpse of it.

Do you consider Abraham's election by God and His promises to him, to mean that he have been saved by God?
Title: Re: The Jewish Sabbath .......
Post by: GB on Sat Feb 01, 2020 - 07:45:57


For the nth time, there is not such thing as justification of sins.

There is no scripture that justifies sin. God never justifies sin. God does not justify sin.

Atonement or cleansing of sins Justifies a man. When his sins are forgiven, and completely forgotten by God, it is "Just as if" the man did not sin in the first place.

The issue Paul was having with the Mainstream Preachers of his time was how are sins cleansed and forgotten by God?

Was it by Following the requirements of God to take an animal to the Levite Priest, for him to perform these Priesthood duties, that didn't exist in Abraham's time, for the atonement of sins thus cleansing the man and making him righteous, "just as if" the man had not sinned at all?

Or had these "LAWS" for justification of men grown old, and become obsolete?



Title: Re: The Jewish Sabbath .......
Post by: Michael2012 on Sat Feb 01, 2020 - 08:10:40
Quote from: Michael
For the nth time, there is not such thing as justification of sins.

There is no scripture that justifies sin. God never justifies sin. God does not justify sin.
Atonement or cleansing of sins Justifies a man. When his sins are forgiven, and completely forgotten by God, it is "Just as if" the man did not sin in the first place.

The issue Paul was having with the Mainstream Preachers of his time was how are sins cleansed and forgotten by God?

Was it by Following the requirements of God to take an animal to the Levite Priest, for him to perform these Priesthood duties, that didn't exist in Abraham's time, for the atonement of sins thus cleansing the man and making him righteous, "just as if" the man had not sinned at all?

Or had these "LAWS" for justification of men grown old, and become obsolete?

What you say is not justification of sin, but justification of the sinner.

There is not such thing as justification of sins. Just as I said, God never justifies sin. God does not justify sin. Sin is never justified, because sin is sin, and will always be sin. To say there is, or even speak of justification of sin, is erroneous. I think that any one who teaches this would be considered a false teacher by many in Christianity.

Was the Christian's sin justified by Christ or was it the Christian who was justified by Christ?

Would you be corrected GB?
Title: Re: The Jewish Sabbath .......
Post by: GB on Sat Feb 01, 2020 - 10:25:46
 author=Michael2012 link=topic=105259.msg1055155495#msg1055155495 date=1580546027]
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What Law are you talking about here? It seems you speak of it as referring to the commandments and judgements of God that He gave the children of God. Well, that would make every working that pertains to it then be the "works of the Law". Do you then here contradict your definition of "works of the Law" as only pertaining to the atonement of sin?

But Michael, if you had been taught about the Covenant God made with Levi on Israel's behalf, you would know there was a Law "ADDED" to God's Law He gave to Abraham which defines sin.

This Law, which did not define sin, was specifically designed to cleanse the sins of His people until "After those days", thus making them clean, "just as if" they had not sinned at all. These are the "DEEDS" of the Law the Jews were still forcing on the New Converts, the topic of this entire chapter.

Your confusion is the result of your refusal to separate the Laws which define sin, from the "deeds of the Priesthood Law" which lead to the justification of men who had sinned.

As a result your entire religious position stands on the falsehood that the Jews were trying to get the New Converts to Love God and Love your neighbor, and all that hangs on them, which show us God's definition of sin.

Loving God, or loving our neighbor, was not EVER a "DEED" of the Law designated to cleanse the sins of man for a time. Moses did not say "If a man sins, let him perform the deed of the law "though shall not kill" and his sins are forgiven and forgotten just as if the man had not sinned. Surely even you must see this truth.

But Moses did say to the man that sinned, "take your best animal to the Levite Priest, according to the Covenant God made with Levi on Israel's behalf, to perform "works or deeds of this law" to cleanse his sin.

Thus we have two Laws in question here as Paul explains.

Rom. 3:26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works?

But you preach to the world that there is only one "LAW" in the Old Covenant. That there isn't a difference between the Covenant God made with Levi on Israel's behalf, and the command to Love God with all your heart. My point, and the very reason I am on this forum, is to point out the difference between what religion you promote, and what Paul actually taught. Paul knew there was a difference between the Law of Works for justification, and the LAW of Faith for justification.

 Loving God and your neighbor, and all that God wrote to define HIS definition of these things is not the Law of "works" but a Law of Faith.

 "Nay: but by the law of faith. 28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by (the Law of) faith without the deeds of the law (of works)."

2 Laws, one, the Law of Faith, which Abraham had, that defines sins, and the other, Law of Works, which was not "ADDED" until 430 later for the atonement of transgressions of the Law of Faith..

Jesus confirms this when He rebuked the Pharisees for honoring the "Priesthood Law" of tithing, but omitted the Law of Faith.

Matt. 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

I have said this before, and will say it again. Until you accept what is written, and come to terms with the Covenant God made with Levi on Israel's behalf, you will never understand the difference between the Covenants the Christ speaks of.

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You mention of Abraham's calling and obedience. Of his obedience you speak well. Yet you don't ever speak about Abraham before he was called. It seems that all of these things about Abraham are insignificant to you. But of course you know too well that they are not, for all scriptures is holy and of well meaning. You had been silent about his former life.

You are again full of BS. Abraham had fallen prey to the religions of the land just as you have.. In this example, God told Abraham the exact thing Jesus said to the entire world. I have said this over and over, it's just that you are here to promote your own religion, you don't see much of anything else.

Gen. 12:1 Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee:

Mark 8:34 And when he had called the people unto him with his disciples also, he said unto them, Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

I asked you, and several others, what the difference was between these two commands once, and you refused to answer as they also refused..

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Don't you acknowledge the truth that Abraham dwelt in Ur, with his father Terah and his kindred, and were worshiping other gods? You don't talk about his having been chosen by God.

I just pointed out to you recently that there is no difference between "Chosen" by God, or "known" by God. Addressing this very thing. I went into detail with you and Red about the calling of Abraham.

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Don't you acknowledge the truth that he was chosen by God, and that was at a time when he was yet a sinner? You also don't talk about God's unmerited favor upon Abraham, nor God's will and purpose in him, concerning God's election of him. Don't you acknowledge the truth about all these concerning Abraham?

I have addressed these issues countless times. Your line of questioning is foolishness.

God's Favor upon Abraham was not unmerited as you preach to the world. God Himself said it was because Abraham obeyed that God showed Favor on Him. And indeed it is written;

 James 2: 22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. 24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

And Again;

Rom. 2:6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

So the very foundation of your religion, is once again built on another lie that God's friendship with Abraham was "Unmerited".

The whole purpose of atonement is justification Michael. As I have said over and over. Abraham was a sinner, living in the religions of the land he was born into. And as with every man, God calls him. Sometimes in person as in the days of old, and sometimes through His Word as it is today.

When Abraham denied himself, and "yielded" himself to God, God forgave him and cleansed his sin. He was justified by Faith in God, not by the "Deeds of the Law" of atonement added 430 years later.

I'll answer your never ending questions, in another post.

Title: Re: The Jewish Sabbath .......
Post by: GB on Sat Feb 01, 2020 - 10:39:52
 author=Michael2012 link=topic=105259.msg1055155495#msg1055155495 date=1580546027]

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Let me ask you some simple questions. I hope you'll have enough courage to face them and answer them. A direct answer would be enough.
 
Why Abraham was chosen by God, was it because of any work that he have done or was it because he have faith?

Faith without works is dead. Is this not Bible 101? Jesus pointed this out in another verse you do not have courage enough to consider. "Why do you call ME Lord, and do not the things I say?" So God chose Abraham "BECAUSE" Abraham obeyed, which is the only true "work of Faith".

So I answered your question, answer mine.

Is the Christ that said "Why do you call ME Lord, and do not the things I say" the same Christ which said to Abram, "Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee: Did Abram obey or not?


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Which came first, God's election and call to Abraham or Abraham's faith?

It depends on whose perspective you are speaking to. If you are speaking to God's Perspective, God knows the end from the beginning. God knows who will listen to Him and who will not before He calls them, because according to scriptures, He has already seen their choice. So God chose Abram from the foundation of the world because HE knew Abram would obey Him, because in God's Realm, Abram already did. And God clearly tells us why HE chose Abram, "Because Abram obeyed".

But if you are speaking to Abram's perspective, He didn't know any of these things. He made a choice to follow God knowing it would anger those idolaters he had lived with. He didn't know where he was going, or how he was going to get there. He just bowed himself to his creator and obeyed.

So to Abram, God's call came first, then the choice to believe. "So Abram departed, as the LORD had spoken unto him;"

I have answered your question, so answer mine.

In your religion, do you believe God lied to Isaac when He told him why He blessed Abraham?

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Which came first, God's promise to Abraham or Abraham's obedience?

Neither came first Michael. Nice try. God's Command came first, as with Eve. "Today, if you hear His Voice, harden not your hearts". Had Abram chosen to stay in the religion he was born into, there would have been no promise.

Gen. 12:1 Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee: 2 And I will make of thee a great nation,

There is the command. "So Abram departed, as the LORD had spoken unto him;" there is Abram's answer.

The implication of your religion that Abram could have rejected this command from God and still be blessed is foolishness and deceitful. And God's Word in it's entirely never teaches such hogwash. It teaches just the opposite.

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Which came first, Abraham's faith or his obedience?

According to Scriptures, Faith and obedience are the same thing. One can not exist without the other. Abram's obedience showed his faith in God. Abram's faith was shown by his obedience to God.

Either way, the Commandment to Abram came first. Without the Command, there is no faith, and there is no obedience, there is no blessing.

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What was accounted to Abraham for righteousness, was it faith or work?

Again, one can not exist without the other. The Command came first. Abram's choice following the command determined his righteousness, or lack thereof.

James 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? (The Command)

22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works (Obeying the command) was faith made perfect?

23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

Here is the exchange from God's Own Word's.

Gen. 22:16 And said, By myself have I sworn, saith the LORD, for because thou hast done this thing, and hast not withheld thy son, thine only son:

17 That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies;

18 And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.

24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

But if I follow you and Red's religion, I am forced to destroy these Word's of God and omit them completely from my understanding. Why? Because your religion does not promote the same message as the God of the Bible. Do you care? The Pharisees didn't, the wicked kings of Israel didn't. Cain didn't. And from your posts I see you don't either.


But regardless of your purposeful refusals to accept these Word's of God,  the Command comes before any of these things. As the Christ teaches.

Duet. 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

I have answered yet another of your endless questions. Now answer mine.
 
In your religion, did Abram choose to trust God? Or did God Make Abram HIS Friend?

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If you know the right answers to those questions, you will somehow have an idea of God's salvation, though that is only a glimpse of it.

You have exalted yourself as Judge of God's Laws and Word's. Choosing which ones are worthy of your respect, and which ones are not. I do not accept your judgment as I have found it lacking on so many fronts. So your judgment of the "Right" answer is your judgment. If I answer the way your religion preaches, I will have a glimpse in how you see God, not how God defines Himself.

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Do you consider Abraham's election by God and His promises to him, to mean that he have been saved by God?

Heb. 11:39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith,[b] received not the promise[/b]: 40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

1 Tim. 6:15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords; 16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.

Abraham is resting in hope, as is David.

Ps. 16:8 I have set the LORD always before me: because he is at my right hand, I shall not be moved. 9 Therefore my heart is glad, and my glory rejoiceth: my flesh also shall rest in hope. 10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell;(Grave) neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. 11 Thou wilt shew me the path of life: in thy presence is fulness of joy; at thy right hand there are pleasures for evermore.

Rom. 8:21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. 23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body. 24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?

I believe that Abraham died in Hope that God would deliver his dead body from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. And all of those who merited God's Election are "waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body".

Has this happened yet for Abraham? "MANY" religions preach it has, but the scriptures say he is still waiting, as am I, for the return of our savior.
Title: Re: The Jewish Sabbath .......
Post by: Amo on Sat Feb 01, 2020 - 10:41:38
author=Amo link=topic=105259.msg1055155475#msg1055155475 date=1580494215]


You are mistaken my friend. There was most certainly a Jewish Sabbath taught for centuries. It wasn't God's Sabbath, it was the Jewish Sabbath. In it a man couldn't take a walk and pick an apple or ear of corn to eat.. This was not God's Sabbath.

The Jews had despised and corrupted and polluted God's Sabbath for years, and they teach this same Jewish sabbath to this day.

I hope you might consider this truth.

Eze 20:12  Moreover also I gave them my sabbaths, to be a sign between me and them, that they might know that I am the LORD that sanctify them. 13 But the house of Israel rebelled against me in the wilderness: they walked not in my statutes, and they despised my judgments, which if a man do, he shall even live in them; and my sabbaths they greatly polluted: then I said, I would pour out my fury upon them in the wilderness, to consume them. 14 But I wrought for my name's sake, that it should not be polluted before the heathen, in whose sight I brought them out. 15 Yet also I lifted up my hand unto them in the wilderness, that I would not bring them into the land which I had given them, flowing with milk and honey, which is the glory of all lands; 16 Because they despised my judgments, and walked not in my statutes, but polluted my sabbaths: for their heart went after their idols. 17 Nevertheless mine eye spared them from destroying them, neither did I make an end of them in the wilderness. 18 But I said unto their children in the wilderness, Walk ye not in the statutes of your fathers, neither observe their judgments, nor defile yourselves with their idols: 19 I am the LORD your God; walk in my statutes, and keep my judgments, and do them; 20 And hallow my sabbaths; and they shall be a sign between me and you, that ye may know that I am the LORD your God. 21 Notwithstanding the children rebelled against me: they walked not in my statutes, neither kept my judgments to do them, which if a man do, he shall even live in them; they polluted my sabbaths: then I said, I would pour out my fury upon them, to accomplish my anger against them in the wilderness. 22 Nevertheless I withdrew mine hand, and wrought for my name's sake, that it should not be polluted in the sight of the heathen, in whose sight I brought them forth. 23 I lifted up mine hand unto them also in the wilderness, that I would scatter them among the heathen, and disperse them through the countries; 24 Because they had not executed my judgments, but had despised my statutes, and had polluted my sabbaths, and their eyes were after their fathers' idols.

I understand your perspective, but disagree with your conclusion. God gave Israel His sabbath. They never claimed another one, or taught anyone not to observe God's, but rather polluted God's as the above scriptures reveal. Only those who claim to worship the true God can pollute the things of God  by either neglecting that which is specified by God, or adding things that be of this world to God's commands. The Jews tried to accuse our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ of breaking God's sabbath according to their polluted version of the same, He rightly rejected these abominations, and taught real sabbath observance. Sunday keepers today have polluted God's sanctuary or temple of the new covenant, which temple we are, by bringing a man made sacred day in to replace God's sabbath.

Jer 7:30 For the children of Judah have done evil in my sight, saith the LORD: they have set their abominations in the house which is called by my name, to pollute it.

Eze 44:5 And the LORD said unto me, Son of man, mark well, and behold with thine eyes, and hear with thine ears all that I say unto thee concerning all the ordinances of the house of the LORD, and all the laws thereof; and mark well the entering in of the house, with every going forth of the sanctuary. 6 And thou shalt say to the rebellious, even to the house of Israel, Thus saith the Lord GOD; O ye house of Israel, let it suffice you of all your abominations, 7 In that ye have brought into my sanctuary strangers, uncircumcised in heart, and uncircumcised in flesh, to be in my sanctuary, to pollute it, even my house, when ye offer my bread, the fat and the blood, and they have broken my covenant because of all your abominations. 8 And ye have not kept the charge of mine holy things: but ye have set keepers of my charge in my sanctuary for yourselves. 9 Thus saith the Lord GOD; No stranger, uncircumcised in heart, nor uncircumcised in flesh, shall enter into my sanctuary, of any stranger that is among the children of Israel.

When apostate "Christianity" hopped in bed with emperors and kings who brought all their unconverted citizens into the church which is the new covenant body of Christ and temple of God, they polluted God's sanctuary once again with unconverted hearts and the abominable practices they brought with them. Sunday sacredness is among these abominations, introduced by a sun worshiping Roman emperor who embraced "Christianity" as a political ploy to unite "Christians" and heathen together under his rule. These who profess to worship God through Jesus Christ while bringing numerous abominations into the new covenant temple and polluting the sanctuary of God. These who do abandon God's sabbath and establish another day according to their chosen abominations. Thus must the sanctuary be cleansed of all such before our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ returns to redeem His own. Therefore need all of God's true followers in Christ flee from BABYLON THE GREAT, through whom the greater part of these abominations entered the ranks of those who would compose God's new covenant temple.

Rev 17:1 And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great whore that sitteth upon many waters: 2 With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication. 3 So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns. 4 And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication: 5 And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH. 6 And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration..............

Rev 18:1 And after these things I saw another angel come down from heaven, having great power; and the earth was lightened with his glory. 2 And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird. 3 For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies. 4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues. 5 For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities. 6 Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double. 7 How much she hath glorified herself, and lived deliciously, so much torment and sorrow give her: for she saith in her heart, I sit a queen, and am no widow, and shall see no sorrow. 8 Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire: for strong is the Lord God who judgeth her.

Now is the time for all professors of Christ to separate themselves from all of the abominations new covenant Israel has brought in and polluted God's sanctuary with. We are no better than the Israel of old, we have repeated their sins. Let us repent, separate ourselves from institutions and practices which are of this world and not of God, and seek to cleanse our hearts and minds that the new covenant temple of God may be cleansed as well. The spirit is willing but the flesh is weak. God forgive us, and strengthen us to do so for the glory and honor of your name.

Joh 2:19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up. 20 Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days? 21 But he spake of the temple of his body. 22 When therefore he was risen from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this unto them; and they believed the scripture, and the word which Jesus had said.

1Co 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? 17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

1Co 6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? 20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.

2Co 6:14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness? 15 And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel? 16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. 17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you, 18 And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.

Eph 2:11  Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; 12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: 13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. 14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; 15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; 16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: 17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh. 18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father. 19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; 20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; 21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: 22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.








Title: Re: The Jewish Sabbath .......
Post by: Michael2012 on Sat Feb 01, 2020 - 13:36:53
What Law are you talking about here? It seems you speak of it as referring to the commandments and judgements of God that He gave the children of God. Well, that would make every working that pertains to it then be the "works of the Law". Do you then here contradict your definition of "works of the Law" as only pertaining to the atonement of sin?
But Michael, if you had been taught about the Covenant God made with Levi on Israel's behalf, you would know there was a Law "ADDED" to God's Law He gave to Abraham which defines sin.

This Law, which did not define sin, was specifically designed to cleanse the sins of His people until "After those days", thus making them clean, "just as if" they had not sinned at all. These are the "DEEDS" of the Law the Jews were still forcing on the New Converts, the topic of this entire chapter.

Your confusion is the result of your refusal to separate the Laws which define sin, from the "deeds of the Priesthood Law" which lead to the justification of men who had sinned.

Who do you suppose gave these priesthood laws? God or man? Yes, God did. Now are they man's laws or God's laws? Yes, God's law. Are they good or evil? Yes, they are just, and holy, and good.

I noticed. It seems you now learned that there is no justification of sin. I don't see you mention that again. That's good.

Quote from: GB
As a result your entire religious position stands on the falsehood that the Jews were trying to get the New Converts to Love God and Love your neighbor, and all that hangs on them, which show us God's definition of sin.

Why don't you stop creating straw man? Why, do you want me to be that straw man?  I'm sorry to disappoint you. I am not that straw man.

Quote from: GB
Loving God, or loving our neighbor, was not EVER a "DEED" of the Law designated to cleanse the sins of man for a time. Moses did not say "If a man sins, let him perform the deed of the law "though shall not kill" and his sins are forgiven and forgotten just as if the man had not sinned. Surely even you must see this truth.

Who is saying all that GB? Perhaps your straw man again? Are you hearing voices?

Quote from: GB
But Moses did say to the man that sinned, "take your best animal to the Levite Priest, according to the Covenant God made with Levi on Israel's behalf, to perform "works or deeds of this law" to cleanse his sin.

Actually it was God who gave commandment to the children of Israel pertaining that, through Moses.

Quote from: GB
Thus we have two Laws in question here as Paul explains.

Rom. 3:26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works?

But you preach to the world that there is only one "LAW" in the Old Covenant. That there isn't a difference between the Covenant God made with Levi on Israel's behalf, and the command to Love God with all your heart. My point, and the very reason I am on this forum, is to point out the difference between what religion you promote, and what Paul actually taught. Paul knew there was a difference between the Law of Works for justification, and the LAW of Faith for justification.

Regarding the Old covenant, does scriptures speak of "book of the two laws" or "book of the law"?

And how could you even point out the difference between what I say, and what Paul actually taught when apparently you don't understand what either of us is saying concerning the Law that God gave to Israel through Moses?

Regarding the law of works and the law of faith, of course, Paul knew. In fact He was the one who wrote about it in scriptures so that we have knowledge of it.

Quote from: GB
Loving God and your neighbor, and all that God wrote to define HIS definition of these things is not the Law of "works" but a Law of Faith.
I don't seem to understand your opinion.
 
Quote from: GB
"Nay: but by the law of faith. 28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by (the Law of) faith without the deeds of the law (of works)."

And your inserts changes the scriptures. You change it to say man is justified by the law of faith instead of by faith. Then you make what, deeds of the law of works? What does that even mean?

Quote from: GB
2 Laws, one, the Law of Faith, which Abraham had, that defines sins, and the other, Law of Works, which was not "ADDED" until 430 later for the atonement of transgressions of the Law of Faith..

Yes, 2 laws, one is law of faith and the other is law of works. But the law of faith is not what you say it is here, as that defines sin. And the law of works is not what you say it is, as that was "ADDED" for the atonement of transgressions of the Law of Faith. If that were so, then Romans 3:27 would be something like this:

'Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of the law for the atonement of transgressions of the Law of Faith? Nay: but by the law that defines sin.'

Makes no sense, does it not? And what would that make of Romans 3:31?

Romans 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

Well, you can find that out yourself.

Quote from: GB
Jesus confirms this when He rebuked the Pharisees for honoring the "Priesthood Law" of tithing, but omitted the Law of Faith.

Matt. 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

Of course Jesus does not confirm what you said.

Quote from: GB
I have said this before, and will say it again. Until you accept what is written, and come to terms with the Covenant God made with Levi on Israel's behalf, you will never understand the difference between the Covenants the Christ speaks of.

You don't have to say that over and over so not to make the same mistake over and over. Besides I'll choose what scriptures say each and every time regarding that.

Quote from: GB
Quote from: Michael
You mention of Abraham's calling and obedience. Of his obedience you speak well. Yet you don't ever speak about Abraham before he was called. It seems that all of these things about Abraham are insignificant to you. But of course you know too well that they are not, for all scriptures is holy and of well meaning. You had been silent about his former life.
You are again full of BS. Abraham had fallen prey to the religions of the land just as you have.. In this example, God told Abraham the exact thing Jesus said to the entire world. I have said this over and over, it's just that you are here to promote your own religion, you don't see much of anything else.

And you don't forget to put your AD HOMINEM, just like it were a signature.
 
Quote from: GB
Gen. 12:1 Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee:

Mark 8:34 And when he had called the people unto him with his disciples also, he said unto them, Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

I asked you, and several others, what the difference was between these two commands once, and you refused to answer as they also refused..

When did you asked me? I don't know of any. Give me the link to that post, if any.

That God told Abraham the exact thing Jesus said to the entire world, with reference to Gen.12:1 and Mark 8:34 is what you want of them to appear. 

Quote from: GB
Quote from: Michael
Don't you acknowledge the truth that Abraham dwelt in Ur, with his father Terah and his kindred, and were worshiping other gods? You don't talk about his having been chosen by God.
I just pointed out to you recently that there is no difference between "Chosen" by God, or "known" by God. Addressing this very thing. I went into detail with you and Red about the calling of Abraham.

Yes you did point out that there is no difference between "Chosen" by God, or "known" by God, when you have ignored Gen. 18:19 Hebrew Text actually says. So?

What does that had to do with the truth that Abraham dwelt in Ur, with his father Terah and his kindred, and were worshiping other gods, before he was chosen and called by God? 

Quote from: GB
Quote from: Michael
Don't you acknowledge the truth that he was chosen by God, and that was at a time when he was yet a sinner? You also don't talk about God's unmerited favor upon Abraham, nor God's will and purpose in him, concerning God's election of him. Don't you acknowledge the truth about all these concerning Abraham?
I have addressed these issues countless times. Your line of questioning is foolishness.
Of course they are foolishness to someone who takes these things as insignificant. Why? Because these things are truth? Because these truths refutes his teachings and doctrines. 

Quote from: GB
God's Favor upon Abraham was not unmerited as you preach to the world. God Himself said it was because Abraham obeyed that God showed Favor on Him. And indeed it is written;

If I'm not mistaken you are referring to the following scriptures:

Gen. 26:2 And the Lord appeared unto him, and said, Go not down into Egypt; dwell in the land which I shall tell thee of:

3 Sojourn in this land, and I will be with thee, and will bless thee; for unto thee, and unto thy seed, I will give all these countries, and I will perform the oath which I sware unto Abraham thy father;

4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;

5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.


That is because you don't acknowledge what scriptures says of Abraham before God had chosen and called him. And not wanting to let go of your doctrine that God had not chosen Abraham by grace but by his obedient work. That Abraham, as a matter of wage because of his work, that God had chosen him. So, that even the scriptures that pertain to Isaac, you apply to Abraham. And so, that even the scriptures which speaks of why God performs the oath which God sware unto Abraham, interprets it as speaking of why God had chosen Abraham. That's what happens when one don't acknowledge what scriptures says of Abraham before God had chosen and called him.

Quote from: GB
James 2: 22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. 24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

And Again;

Rom. 2:6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

So the very foundation of your religion, is once again built on another lie that God's friendship with Abraham was "Unmerited".

When Abraham, before he was chosen and called by God, when he was dwelling in Ur with his father and kindred, worshiping other gods, when he was a sinner, was not yet a friend of God. But even while he was yet a sinner, an enemy of God so to speak, he was chosen by grace and called by God.

Quote from: GB
The whole purpose of atonement is justification Michael. As I have said over and over. Abraham was a sinner, living in the religions of the land he was born into. And as with every man, God calls him. Sometimes in person as in the days of old, and sometimes through His Word as it is today.

When Abraham denied himself, and "yielded" himself to God, God forgave him and cleansed his sin. He was justified by Faith in God, not by the "Deeds of the Law" of atonement added 430 years later.

I'll answer your never ending questions, in another post.

I'll be waiting for your answers to my simple questions. Thank you.
Title: Re: The Jewish Sabbath .......
Post by: GB on Sat Feb 01, 2020 - 14:07:41
 author=Amo link=topic=105259.msg1055155524#msg1055155524 date=1580575298]

Quote
I understand your perspective, but disagree with your conclusion. God gave Israel His sabbath. They never claimed another one, or taught anyone not to observe God's, but rather polluted God's as the above scriptures reveal. Only those who claim to worship the true God can pollute the things of God  by either neglecting that which is specified by God, or adding things that be of this world to God's commands. The Jews tried to accuse our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ of breaking God's sabbath according to their polluted version of the same, He rightly rejected these abominations, and taught real sabbath observance. Sunday keepers today have polluted God's sanctuary or temple of the new covenant, which temple we are, by bringing a man made sacred day in to replace God's sabbath.

The point is, the Jews were not following God's Sabbaths. They had created their own. I have heard countless mainstream preachers declare "the Jews kept God's Sabbaths and look what it got them". I think it is important to expose the truth about the Jews religion, in that they were not obedient to God, nor were they trying to promote God's Laws on to the people. This is the conclusion I came to. I am sorry you don't agree.


Quote
When apostate "Christianity" hopped in bed with emperors and kings who brought all their unconverted citizens into the church which is the new covenant body of Christ and temple of God, they polluted God's sanctuary once again with unconverted hearts and the abominable practices they brought with them.

I see SDA doing this same thing all the time. They have 6 days to do "their work", but they choose to do much of it on God's Holy Sabbaths. In this way they can attract more folks to their religion, making it more profitable and bigger, which seems to mean something in modern "Christianity".


While I am a true believer in God's Holy Sabbath having lived in it for many years, I am not a believer in SDA. They are guilty, in my view, of the same things they continually accuse other churches of. I met with several SDA church leaders 20 years ago having had His Sabbath written on my heart. I spent a great deal of time discussing scriptures. But they were only promoting their religious franchise, just as AOG, or LDS, or JW, or Catholics and the rest.

It seems they worship a day in the same way modern religions worship an image of some long haired men's hair shampoo model, in the same way the Jews worshipped the Levitical Priesthood.

SDA have watered down and polluted God's Sabbath, just as the Jews have done. And to argue with them about their "acceptable Sabbath activities" will result in the same ridicule and rejection Jesus was subjected to when He argued with the Jews about their "acceptable Sabbath Activities".

In my view, the SDA Franchise has used this one Commandment to build their Franchise, just as the Baptist's have used the Grace of God to build theirs, or the Catholics used the image of a man being tortured to death to build theirs.

Having teamed up with the world as with all the daughters of the Catholic church, SDA has become one of the biggest churches on the planet.

They own 198 hospitals in the world, open 24-7, which employs thousands of people, 24-7 to maintain and make sure these hospitals are profitable so as to stay in business. They claim this is their "good deed" even though there is no indication Jesus promoted the wholesale treatment of random sick people, even though Jesus could have healed every sickness in the world with just one prayer.

Yet you claim to be the righteous one over the Catholics because of this one commandment that your business breaks and causes "many" to break, "in order to do your good deeds" which brought in about 14 Billion US in 2015..

The Catholics has 5,500 churches in the world, and have helped so many more people, in exactly the same way as the SDA. Yet, SDA are free to break God's Commandment because they are "helping the needy", but the Catholic are guilty of breaking the Commandment, even though they pollute it in exactly the same fashion, and for exactly the same reason's SDA does. "To do Good Deeds".

The hypocrisy is stunning.

Quote
Sunday sacredness is among these abominations, introduced by a sun worshiping Roman emperor who embraced "Christianity" as a political ploy to unite "Christians" and heathen together under his rule. These who profess to worship God through Jesus Christ while bringing numerous abominations into the new covenant temple and polluting the sanctuary of God. These who do abandon God's sabbath and establish another day according to their chosen abominations. Thus must the sanctuary be cleansed of all such before our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ returns to redeem His own. Therefore need all of God's true followers in Christ flee from BABYLON THE GREAT, through whom the greater part of these abominations entered the ranks of those who would compose God's new covenant temple.

Has SDA not done the same thing? Just under the claim of a different day? How is it righteousness to pollute God's Sabbath by using the worlds rejection of it, to further your own religion? SDA have no problem with asking men to cook food for them or their family on the Sabbath because they didn't prepare for it the day before. I have heard it all before. "Oh, they were already breaking His Sabbath, so my driving to the restaurant for dinner on His Sabbath is somehow acceptable". Just as they have no problem hiring people to work 24-7 to maintain a business so they can continue to do "Their Good deeds".

This world wide organization is no different than any other organized religion of the world. They think they are, just as the Baptists think they are, just as the Jews think they are. But when you wipe off all the lipstick, there is no difference.


Quote
Now is the time for all professors of Christ to separate themselves from all of the abominations new covenant Israel has brought in and polluted God's sanctuary with. We are no better than the Israel of old, we have repeated their sins. Let us repent, separate ourselves from institutions and practices which are of this world and not of God, and seek to cleanse our hearts and minds that the new covenant temple of God may be cleansed as well. The spirit is willing but the flesh is weak. God forgive us, and strengthen us to do so for the glory and honor of your name.

Yes, let us reject the religious pamphlet's and the SDA church Manuals, and JW Hightower, and all the "Other religious voices" and religious philosophers out there, and follow the Instructions of the Christ Himself.

"Man shall not live by bread alone, but by Every Word which proceeds from the mouth of God"


]1Co 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? 17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

Amo, God's Holy Sabbath is designed as a "Fast" from the world, and the religions thereof. You choose Ellen White, the Catholics choose Constantine, others choose Wesley, and still others choose Calvin, the list goes on and on.

The point being, if God is going to condemn the Catholics for breaking God's Laws, He will also condemn SDA, who by their own choice and businesses have also broken God's Laws.

I am a Sabbath Keeper Amo. You are not talking to someone who rejects the commandment. 

James 1:27 Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.

Who are the fatherless?  Does this mean we only visit kids whose dad is gone?

Who are the widows? Does this mean we only visit those women who were married, but their husband is now passed away?

And how would we help them? By building huge hospitals and schools which require work 24-7 and give them the SDA Church manual?

Of course these words will not be easily accepted. But I would ask of you one thing. Do a study on the Biblical definition of "Fatherless and the Widow" which is mentioned over 40 times in the Law and Prophets, and 1 time in the NT.

Do it in the confines of your own home, in prayer and fasting, and see if you can answer the questions I asked.

I think you will find that this instruction is not designed to be used as an excuse to break any of God's Commands. Even the 4th commandment.




Title: Re: The Jewish Sabbath .......
Post by: Amo on Sat Feb 01, 2020 - 15:48:16
author=Amo link=topic=105259.msg1055155524#msg1055155524 date=1580575298]

The point is, the Jews were not following God's Sabbaths. They had created their own. I have heard countless mainstream preachers declare "the Jews kept God's Sabbaths and look what it got them". I think it is important to expose the truth about the Jews religion, in that they were not obedient to God, nor were they trying to promote God's Laws on to the people. This is the conclusion I came to. I am sorry you don't agree.


I see SDA doing this same thing all the time. They have 6 days to do "their work", but they choose to do much of it on God's Holy Sabbaths. In this way they can attract more folks to their religion, making it more profitable and bigger, which seems to mean something in modern "Christianity".


While I am a true believer in God's Holy Sabbath having lived in it for many years, I am not a believer in SDA. They are guilty, in my view, of the same things they continually accuse other churches of. I met with several SDA church leaders 20 years ago having had His Sabbath written on my heart. I spent a great deal of time discussing scriptures. But they were only promoting their religious franchise, just as AOG, or LDS, or JW, or Catholics and the rest.

It seems they worship a day in the same way modern religions worship an image of some long haired men's hair shampoo model, in the same way the Jews worshipped the Levitical Priesthood.

SDA have watered down and polluted God's Sabbath, just as the Jews have done. And to argue with them about their "acceptable Sabbath activities" will result in the same ridicule and rejection Jesus was subjected to when He argued with the Jews about their "acceptable Sabbath Activities".

In my view, the SDA Franchise has used this one Commandment to build their Franchise, just as the Baptist's have used the Grace of God to build theirs, or the Catholics used the image of a man being tortured to death to build theirs.

Having teamed up with the world as with all the daughters of the Catholic church, SDA has become one of the biggest churches on the planet.

They own 198 hospitals in the world, open 24-7, which employs thousands of people, 24-7 to maintain and make sure these hospitals are profitable so as to stay in business. They claim this is their "good deed" even though there is no indication Jesus promoted the wholesale treatment of random sick people, even though Jesus could have healed every sickness in the world with just one prayer.

Yet you claim to be the righteous one over the Catholics because of this one commandment that your business breaks and causes "many" to break, "in order to do your good deeds" which brought in about 14 Billion US in 2015..

The Catholics has 5,500 churches in the world, and have helped so many more people, in exactly the same way as the SDA. Yet, SDA are free to break God's Commandment because they are "helping the needy", but the Catholic are guilty of breaking the Commandment, even though they pollute it in exactly the same fashion, and for exactly the same reason's SDA does. "To do Good Deeds".

The hypocrisy is stunning.

Has SDA not done the same thing? Just under the claim of a different day? How is it righteousness to pollute God's Sabbath by using the worlds rejection of it, to further your own religion? SDA have no problem with asking men to cook food for them or their family on the Sabbath because they didn't prepare for it the day before. I have heard it all before. "Oh, they were already breaking His Sabbath, so my driving to the restaurant for dinner on His Sabbath is somehow acceptable". Just as they have no problem hiring people to work 24-7 to maintain a business so they can continue to do "Their Good deeds".

This world wide organization is no different than any other organized religion of the world. They think they are, just as the Baptists think they are, just as the Jews think they are. But when you wipe off all the lipstick, there is no difference.


Yes, let us reject the religious pamphlet's and the SDA church Manuals, and JW Hightower, and all the "Other religious voices" and religious philosophers out there, and follow the Instructions of the Christ Himself.

"Man shall not live by bread alone, but by Every Word which proceeds from the mouth of God"


]1Co 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? 17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

Amo, God's Holy Sabbath is designed as a "Fast" from the world, and the religions thereof. You choose Ellen White, the Catholics choose Constantine, others choose Wesley, and still others choose Calvin, the list goes on and on.

The point being, if God is going to condemn the Catholics for breaking God's Laws, He will also condemn SDA, who by their own choice and businesses have also broken God's Laws.

I am a Sabbath Keeper Amo. You are not talking to someone who rejects the commandment. 

James 1:27 Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.

Who are the fatherless?  Does this mean we only visit kids whose dad is gone?

Who are the widows? Does this mean we only visit those women who were married, but their husband is now passed away?

And how would we help them? By building huge hospitals and schools which require work 24-7 and give them the SDA Church manual?

Of course these words will not be easily accepted. But I would ask of you one thing. Do a study on the Biblical definition of "Fatherless and the Widow" which is mentioned over 40 times in the Law and Prophets, and 1 time in the NT.

Do it in the confines of your own home, in prayer and fasting, and see if you can answer the questions I asked.

I think you will find that this instruction is not designed to be used as an excuse to break any of God's Commands. Even the 4th commandment.

It seems my disagreement with one of your conclusions, has lead you to several other wrong conclusions. Some of which are ignoring things I clearly pointed out in my post. So be it.

I am sure you are far more righteous than I, which isn't really saying much, and do keep the sabbath better than I and all SDA's apparently. Nevertheless, as a selfish sinner just like the rest of us, you do fall extremely short of perfection regarding such and all else just like the rest of us. My post was not about the exactness or perfection of sabbath observance regarding some sort of scale separating believers, it was about accepting God's sabbath by faith, over and above a man made sabbath. Neither yourself or anyone else will ever be saved or lost in relation to perfect sabbath keeping or law keeping or not. Salvation will be gained or lost in relation to acceptance or rejection of the truth, and God's judgment regarding the authenticity of the same. Which judgement can be in relation to, but is not completely subject to proper or willing obedience, or intention to keep God's commandments. Which commandments are to be kept because one is saved, not in order to be saved. If our salvation were dependent upon the latter, we would all be doomed.

Those who reject the authority of God's commandments will not be lost because they did not perfectly keep them, in which case all would be lost, but rather because they have rejected the truth which is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit of God. Neither can those who reject the authority of God's law be forgiven for their sins against it, in that they will never seek forgiveness for that which they wrongly determine is not sin. Thereby does deception destroy souls. Not in ignorance of God's will, but in chosen and willing ignorance of God's will. As the scriptures themselves testify.

2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. 5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? 6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. 7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. 8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: 9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Sin can be forgiven, rejection of the truth cannot. It is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit of God who convicts the world of sin, righteousness, and judgment to come.

Mar 3:28 Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme: 29 But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation:


Title: Re: The Jewish Sabbath .......
Post by: GB on Sat Feb 01, 2020 - 17:18:11
It seems my disagreement with one of your conclusions, has lead you to several other wrong conclusions. Some of which are ignoring things I clearly pointed out in my post. So be it.

I am sure you are far more righteous than I, which isn't really saying much, and do keep the sabbath better than I and all SDA's apparently. Nevertheless, as a selfish sinner just like the rest of us, you do fall extremely short of perfection regarding such and all else just like the rest of us. My post was not about the exactness or perfection of sabbath observance regarding some sort of scale separating believers, it was about accepting God's sabbath by faith, over and above a man made sabbath. Neither yourself or anyone else will ever be saved or lost in relation to perfect sabbath keeping or law keeping or not. Salvation will be gained or lost in relation to acceptance or rejection of the truth, and God's judgment regarding the authenticity of the same. Which judgement can be in relation to, but is not completely subject to proper or willing obedience, or intention to keep God's commandments. Which commandments are to be kept because one is saved, not in order to be saved. If our salvation were dependent upon the latter, we would all be doomed.

Those who reject the authority of God's commandments will not be lost because they did not perfectly keep them, in which case all would be lost, but rather because they have rejected the truth which is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit of God. Neither can those who reject the authority of God's law be forgiven for their sins against it, in that they will never seek forgiveness for that which they wrongly determine is not sin. Thereby does deception destroy souls. Not in ignorance of God's will, but in chosen and willing ignorance of God's will. As the scriptures themselves testify.

2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. 5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? 6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. 7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. 8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: 9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Sin can be forgiven, rejection of the truth cannot. It is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit of God who convicts the world of sin, righteousness, and judgment to come.

Mar 3:28 Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme: 29 But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation:

My disagreement is with the religious practices and doctrines of the organized church with which you defend and promote. Not with you personally.

The Jews also claimed obedience to God's Sabbaths, and yet the Christ rejected them. I understand how easy it is to just attack the messenger, as they did, and you are doing. I was only exposing the glaring hypocrisy of the SDA organization, the same way you expose the hypocrisy of the organized Catholic church every day.

It seems you are more than willing to shell out the corrections, but less willing it seems, to receive them.

Imagine that.







Title: Re: The Jewish Sabbath .......
Post by: Michael2012 on Sun Feb 02, 2020 - 06:37:55
Why Abraham was chosen by God, was it because of any work that he have done or was it because he have faith?

Faith without works is dead. Is this not Bible 101? Jesus pointed this out in another verse you do not have courage enough to consider. "Why do you call ME Lord, and do not the things I say?" So God chose Abraham "BECAUSE" Abraham obeyed, which is the only true "work of Faith".

Yes you gave an answer. However, it's an answer that goes against the teachings of scriptures.

Genesis 12:1 intimates that God had chosen Abraham, where God had spoken to him and had first given him a commandment. That was at a time, when Abraham was dwelling in Ur with his father and kindred who were idolaters, worshiping other gods (Joshua 24:2). It was at a time when he was a sinner, was not yet a friend of God so to speak, and knew not God.

God had chosen Abraham by His grace, according to His will and purpose in him, is unmistakable. That God had chosen him because of any work that he have done or his obedience, or because he have faith in God, is a lie and is an impossibility, for Abraham knew not God, moreso have faith in Him and obey Him, before God had spoken to him in Gen. 12:1.   

Quote from: GB
So I answered your question, answer mine.

Is the Christ that said "Why do you call ME Lord, and do not the things I say" the same Christ which said to Abram, "Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee: Did Abram obey or not?

It was not Jesus Christ, but is YHVH or YHWH, who said unto Abram, "Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee" (Gen. 12:1). It was Jesus Christ, that said "And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?"(Luke 6:46).

After God had chosen Abraham, God gave him a commandment (Gen. 12:1). Next God gave him promises (Gen.12: 2-3). After which, Abraham believed Him who spoke to him, that is, God. Believing, Abraham in hope, obeyed God's command unto him. 
Title: Re: The Jewish Sabbath .......
Post by: RB on Sun Feb 02, 2020 - 08:10:34
I was only exposing the glaring hypocrisy of the SDA organization, the same way you expose the hypocrisy of the organized Catholic church every day.
I would not call the SDA religion a glaring hypocrisy because of their hospitals working 24/7 AS LONG AS they give each worker off ONE DAY after working six days to rest their bodies, minds and for them to set THAT DAY aside for religious purpose of meditations and prayers and worship. That's the intent of God sanctifying the seventh day AFTER six days of working! That day will vary from person to person. Do you suggest that ALL law enforcement be closed on YOUR SABBATH DAY? If you were extremely ill on YOUR SABBATH DAY OF REST. would you not use A Catholic, SDA, Baptist, etc. hospitals? If someone broke into your home on YOUR SABBATH DAY would you not call the law? Of course, you would on both accounts, so the hypocrite is you and maybe SDA IF they refuse to give their workers a day off AFTER six days of labor per Genesis....AND if they insist that it be on SATURDAY the OLD JEWISH SABBATH DAY under Moses! Under the NT it is abundantly clear that the FIRST day of the week is our HOLY SABBATH DAY, (BUT, some godly people might not be able to honor that day for reasons given)  whereby we honor our Lord's death and resurrection. I have proven this in another thread and do not desire to do so again. Mark 16:9 is clear as to WHAT DAY our Lord was resurrected~the very day that the holy apostle John was in the Spirit, per Revelation as he spent that day in prayer, meditations and worship, that prompts him to say that he was IN THE SPIRIT on the Lord's day, and if the first day of the week is not the Lord's day, then WHAT DAY IS IT?
Quote from: Amo on: Yesterday at 15:48:16
I am sure you are far more righteous than I, which isn't really saying much, and do keep the sabbath better than I and all SDA's apparently. Nevertheless, as a selfish sinner just like the rest of us, you do fall extremely short of perfection regarding such and all else just like the rest of us. My post was not about the exactness or perfection of sabbath observance regarding some sort of scale separating believers, it was about accepting God's sabbath by faith, over and above a man made sabbath. Neither yourself or anyone else will ever be saved or lost in relation to perfect sabbath keeping or law keeping or not. Salvation will be gained or lost in relation to acceptance or rejection of the truth, and God's judgment regarding the authenticity of the same. Which judgement can be in relation to, but is not completely subject to proper or willing obedience, or intention to keep God's commandments. Which commandments are to be kept because one is saved, not in order to be saved. If our salvation were dependent upon the latter, we would all be doomed.

Those who reject the authority of God's commandments will not be lost because they did not perfectly keep them, in which case all would be lost, but rather because they have rejected the truth which is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit of God. Neither can those who reject the authority of God's law be forgiven for their sins against it, in that they will never seek forgiveness for that which they wrongly determine is not sin. Thereby does deception destroy souls. Not in ignorance of God's will, but in chosen and willing ignorance of God's will. As the scriptures themselves testify.


Sin can be forgiven, rejection of the truth cannot. It is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit of God who convicts the world of sin, righteousness, and judgment to come.

Mar 3:28 Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme: 29 But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation:
Some of your words prove to me that you are not far from the kingdom of God.  I also fully agree with your understanding of blasphemy against the Holy Spirit of God. Without dissecting your words let me say a few things and then I'm most likely finish with this thread.

I firmly believe in God's holy Sabbath as it was given and for the purpose in which it was given starting with Genesis. It was given FOR MAN"S benefits, not man for the Sabbath. It seems as though no one kept it as it was first given~SIX days of working and THEN resting the seventh day. Not until The Law Giver Moses appeared do we see where it was given by God AGAIN on tables of stone in its STRICTEST SENSE~NO WORK, for man, beast, servants, and even the LAND (obviously DIFFERENT SECTIONS AT A TIMES) had a sabbath every seven years.

By God giving the law, it was done to give them a KNOWLEDGE OF SIN, and to show them their NEED OF JESUS CHRIST'S RIGHTEOUSNESS. Every saved person living under the OT KNEW in their hearts that it was IMPOSSIBLE for them to keep the law in ITS STRICTEST and WIDEST SENSE, thereby, they understood that the law gave WITNESS to the righteousness of God that he would provide for them THROUGH CHRIST. The self-righteous (and we will add, SELF DECEIVED) among them TRUST IN THEIR power to keep the law in order to be accepted with God, yet neither Abraham nor David did so, but BOTH spoke of how God IMPUTES righteousness WITHOUT the deeds of the law (Psalms 32:2, etc.)~we under the NT see it even MUCH CLEARER or at least the very elect do, the mixed multitudes among us DO NOT.  Before I leave, let me give an example of how the law should convict us as wicked sinners if the law is used in the sense in which God gave it.

On the Sabbath day there was to be NO WORK, but rest and be used for SPIRITUAL ACTIVITY alone. Now almost every man can keep the letter of the law, NO PROBLEM~but to keep its in its purest form IN OUR HEARTS without any desire to do ANYTHING other than rest and for GOD, is impossible, (if we are honest) even though one may attempt to do so.  Maybe we can refrain from working, YET in our hearts, we still would have thoughts about it being past so that we can get back to our business of making money and providing for ourselves and family. EVEN on the Sabbath if we have any fleshly DESIRES for ANYTHING other than GOD, it is a sin! FOR THIS REASON and others is why God gave the Sabbath. It should show us JUST HOW SINFUL WE ARE if the law is understood by us in the perfection of its spirituality.   
Title: Re: The Jewish Sabbath .......
Post by: GB on Sun Feb 02, 2020 - 08:58:35
author=Michael2012 link=topic=105259.msg1055155571#msg1055155571 date=1580647075]
Quote
Faith without works is dead. Is this not Bible 101? Jesus pointed this out in another verse you do not have courage enough to consider. "Why do you call ME Lord, and do not the things I say?" So God chose Abraham "BECAUSE" Abraham obeyed, which is the only true "work of Faith".

Yes you gave an answer. However, it's an answer that goes against the teachings of scriptures.

Genesis 12:1 intimates that God had chosen Abraham, where God had spoken to him and had first given him a commandment. That was at a time, when Abraham was dwelling in Ur with his father and kindred who were idolaters, worshiping other gods (Joshua 24:2). It was at a time when he was a sinner, was not yet a friend of God so to speak, and knew not God.


God calls all sinners to repentance, why would Abram be any different?  "Many are called, but few are chosen".

Yes, by God's Grace Abram was called, like all men. "Deny yourself and follow Me". As it is written in the Holy Scriptures "Today, if you hear HIS Voice, harden not your hearts".

Abram heard God and didn't harden his heart, but obeyed. God Himself said this was the reason HE chose Abram.

It is God's Judgment, once again, that you refuse to accept.

Quote
God had chosen Abraham by His grace, according to His will and purpose in him, is unmistakable.

No, you are twisting these scriptures. God called Abram first. God called Him to deny himself and follow HIM. Before he was blessed, before he was chosen, while Abram was yet in sin, God called him to "deny himself" and follow God. Abram had two choices. Trust God's Words and obey, reject God's words and disobey.

Abram chose to trust God.

The God of the Bible Himself tells us God "Chose" Him "BECAUSE" Abraham obeyed.

Gen. 18: 19 For I know him, that he will command his children and his household after him, and they shall keep the way of the LORD, to do justice and judgment; that the LORD may bring upon Abraham that which he hath spoken of him.

The biblical Truth is that God, by HIS grace, Called Abram to "deny himself" and follow God FIRST. Abram did as the Lord commanded. And God chose to make him a father of many nations because of Abram's Faithfulness.

Quote
That God had chosen him because of any work that he have done or his obedience, or because he have faith in God, is a lie and is an impossibility, for Abraham knew not God, moreso have faith in Him and obey Him, before God had spoken to him in Gen. 12:1.

You are confused. Abram was called to deny himself before he obeyed, while he was yet in sin. The Call came first as it is clearly written. Abram obeyed the call, God chose Him to be a father of many nations "BECAUSE" HE Obeyed.

Gen. 26:4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;

5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

This is just like the Covenant God made with Levi on behalf of the Children of Israel. You religion doesn't teach these truths therefore you don't know of them. And when some poor slob like my self shows them to you, you call them a liar. And yet, here is God Himself telling you why HE Chose to give Abraham the Promise, and you still refuse to question your own religion.


Quote
It was not Jesus Christ, but is YHVH or YHWH, who said unto Abram, "Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee" (Gen. 12:1). It was Jesus Christ, that said "And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?"(Luke 6:46).

You didn't answer the question. In Your Religion, Was the God that talked with Abram, the same God that became the man Jesus?

Quote
After God had chosen Abraham, God gave him a commandment (Gen. 12:1). Next God gave him promises (Gen.12: 2-3). After which, Abraham believed Him who spoke to him, that is, God. Believing, Abraham in hope, obeyed God's command unto him.

God called Abram to deny himself first Michael. Without Abram's choice to obey the call, there would be no new land for Abram, no promise to Abram. God would have called others until someone obeyed the call to deny themselves, and brought them into a new land, and gave them the promise HE offered to Abram.

God knew what choice Abram would make because HE knows the end from the beginning. But Abram didn't. Abram made the choice to obey God of his own free will. This is why God Chose to give HIM the Promises.

And God Himself tells you this. "today, if you hear HIS Voice, harden not your heart". "Do the works of Abraham".






Title: Re: The Jewish Sabbath .......
Post by: Michael2012 on Sun Feb 02, 2020 - 09:17:28
Which came first, God's election and call to Abraham or Abraham's faith?

It depends on whose perspective you are speaking to. If you are speaking to God's Perspective, God knows the end from the beginning. God knows who will listen to Him and who will not before He calls them, because according to scriptures, He has already seen their choice. So God chose Abram from the foundation of the world because HE knew Abram would obey Him, because in God's Realm, Abram already did. And God clearly tells us why HE chose Abram, "Because Abram obeyed".

But if you are speaking to Abram's perspective, He didn't know any of these things. He made a choice to follow God knowing it would anger those idolaters he had lived with. He didn't know where he was going, or how he was going to get there. He just bowed himself to his creator and obeyed.

So to Abram, God's call came first, then the choice to believe. "So Abram departed, as the LORD had spoken unto him;"

Of course the question is with regards to what scriptures says about that, and not with regards to God's perspective or Abraham's perspective.

For to even think that you can put yourself in God's perspective, is nothing but arrogance, and certainly a futile exercise. All is but mere guess that results to more questions than answers, which really leads us nowhere. For example, did God create Adam and Eve because He looked into the future and saw that they will sin? What if He had seen otherwise? Can you get into God's perspective and tell us the truth?   

But if we go to scriptures and be faithful to it, not going beyond what is written, God's election and call to Abraham comes first and before Abraham's faith unto obedience.

Quote from: GB
I have answered your question, so answer mine.

In your religion, do you believe God lied to Isaac when He told him why He blessed Abraham?

To my present knowledge, I know no such instance that God told Isaac why He blessed Abraham. But if there was, needles to say, God did not lie, for it is impossible for God to lie.

Are you referring to Gen. 26:1-5? If you are, then you are mistaken. Read again the passage.
Title: Re: The Jewish Sabbath .......
Post by: Michael2012 on Sun Feb 02, 2020 - 09:49:03
Which came first, God's promise to Abraham or Abraham's obedience?

Neither came first Michael. Nice try. God's Command came first, as with Eve. "Today, if you hear His Voice, harden not your hearts". Had Abram chosen to stay in the religion he was born into, there would have been no promise.

Gen. 12:1 Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee: 2 And I will make of thee a great nation,

There is the command. "So Abram departed, as the LORD had spoken unto him;" there is Abram's answer.

With reference to Gen. 12:1-4, here's the order.

Verse 1: God's choosing of Abram, and the charge of God to Abraham.
Verses 2 & 3: God's promises to Abram.
Verse 4: Abram's faith unto obedience

Clearly, what came first is God's choosing of Abram by grace and God's charge. Second, the promises of God to Abram. Then came last, is Abram's faith unto obedience.

Quote from: GB
The implication of your religion that Abram could have rejected this command from God and still be blessed is foolishness and deceitful. And God's Word in it's entirely never teaches such hogwash. It teaches just the opposite.
God have chosen Abraham to carry out His determined purpose, not just merely choosing him. If you think that Abraham could have rejected God, then you seem to give more weight to Abraham's will power than to God's power. Besides, if God spoke to you as He did to Abraham, or to Moses, or to Paul, would you still say you could reject God and not do what He tells you to do? I am beginning to think that you think you could.

Consider meditating on these scriptures:

Romans 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?


Title: Re: The Jewish Sabbath .......
Post by: Michael2012 on Sun Feb 02, 2020 - 10:10:52
Which came first, Abraham's faith or his obedience?

According to Scriptures, Faith and obedience are the same thing. One can not exist without the other. Abram's obedience showed his faith in God. Abram's faith was shown by his obedience to God.

Either way, the Commandment to Abram came first. Without the Command, there is no faith, and there is no obedience, there is no blessing.

According to you Faith and obedience are the same thing. According to scriptures, Abraham's faith came first. So that, by faith, Abraham obeyed God.

That's right, Abraham's obedient work showed his faith in God. And that answers the question GB. He had to have faith in the first place so that there is faith to be shown by his obedient work.
Title: Re: The Jewish Sabbath .......
Post by: GB on Sun Feb 02, 2020 - 10:50:35
 author=RB link=topic=105259.msg1055155575#msg1055155575 date=1580652634]
Quote
I would not call the SDA religion a glaring hypocrisy because of their hospitals working 24/7 AS LONG AS they give each worker off ONE DAY after working six days to rest their bodies, minds and for them to set THAT DAY aside for religious purpose of meditations and prayers and worship. That's the intent of God sanctifying the seventh day AFTER six days of working! That day will vary from person to person. Do you suggest that ALL law enforcement be closed on YOUR SABBATH DAY? If you were extremely ill on YOUR SABBATH DAY OF REST. would you not use A Catholic, SDA, Baptist, etc. hospitals? If someone broke into your home on YOUR SABBATH DAY would you not call the law? Of course, you would on both accounts, so the hypocrite is you and maybe SDA IF they refuse to give their workers a day off AFTER six days of labor per Genesis....AND if they insist that it be on SATURDAY the OLD JEWISH SABBATH DAY under Moses! Under the NT it is abundantly clear that the FIRST day of the week is our HOLY SABBATH DAY, (BUT, some godly people might not be able to honor that day for reasons given)  whereby we honor our Lord's death and resurrection. I have proven this in another thread and do not desire to do so again. Mark 16:9 is clear as to WHAT DAY our Lord was resurrected~the very day that the holy apostle John was in the Spirit, per Revelation as he spent that day in prayer, meditations and worship, that prompts him to say that he was IN THE SPIRIT on the Lord's day, and if the first day of the week is not the Lord's day, then WHAT DAY IS IT?

My point is AMO is condemning a religious franchise for doing many of the same things that SDA religious franchise does. I agree with him regarding the mainstream preachers of this world. But I warn him that his religious franchise produces much of the same fruits. My hope is that he is not caught with her, when Jesus comes.

I pointed out that Jesus could have healed every sick person, child, in the world with one prayer. But He chose not to.

God has protected His elect through worldly nations for centuries. It doesn't mean we should follow their religions.

Healing random sick people might be a "work" religious men rely on for righteousness. But Jesus never instructed any such thing. Instead, He warned of being deceived by religious men who come in HIS Name.

It seems God has Judgments given to the world through HIS Holy Scriptures. Men also have judgments. The point of repentance is to "deny" our judgments in favor of Gods.

God tells us HIS Judgments are perfect, Holy, Righteous and Good. But you have judged many of them as Beggarly Elements, burdens, Yoke of Bondage, and UnHoly. God says that in the 7 day week HE Created, the 7th is Holy, is Sanctified, and He commanded HIS people to remember this.

But you have judged His 7th day as not Holy. Not Sanctified, and you outright reject the command to treat this day differently than the others. Instead, you choose to judge the 1st day of the week as "Your Holy Sabbath", a judgment not given even once in the entire Bible. Not Prophesied by the God who knows the end from the beginning. And no instruction whatsoever to deny the 7th Day, and create your own Sabbath. No instruction by God, Jesus, any of the Prophets, Disciples, nothing. You take a few verses in the Bible, and declare that through them you are justified to reject the Sabbath of God and create your own Sabbath.


However, the rejection and pollution of His Sanctified day is spoken of over and over and over in God's Word. And God pointed out HIS displeasure over this rejection of HIS Judgment, His Anger towards religious men who did what you advocate, is not withheld from us.

So once again, it is a matter of what the Holy Scriptures teach VS. what religious men preach. Red.

If a man were to only study the Holy Scriptures, without the influence of any "other religious voices", There would be no influence what so ever to reject God's Sabbaths in favor of a Catholic High Day. Just as Eve would have had no influence or reason to eat of the tree in which God commanded not to eat.

I understand I am bucking centuries of other religious voices, like those who deceived Eve, and that men like to have it that way. But alas, here I am, pointing out these truths anyway.

God didn't create HIS Word's for people to reject them. That is not the purpose of HIS Word. He didn't create the Commandment for people to omit and ignore. Of this I am sure. His Sabbath wasn't made for the purpose of building a huge, worldly accepted religion surrounding it, nor was it created for the purpose of polluting, omitting or forgetting.

But He did create His Commandment for a purpose. Can we reject the Command, and still find it's purpose? I think not.

And yet, is this not what modern religions teach us to do?











Title: Re: The Jewish Sabbath .......
Post by: GB on Sun Feb 02, 2020 - 11:25:02
According to Scriptures, Faith and obedience are the same thing. One can not exist without the other. Abram's obedience showed his faith in God. Abram's faith was shown by his obedience to God.

Either way, the Commandment to Abram came first. Without the Command, there is no faith, and there is no obedience, there is no blessing.

According to you Faith and obedience are the same thing. According to scriptures, Abraham's faith came first. So that, by faith, Abraham obeyed God.

That's right, Abraham's obedient work showed his faith in God. And that answers the question GB. He had to have faith in the first place so that there is faith to be shown by his obedient work.

Without the Command, there is neither an opportunity for faith, nor the opportunity for obedience. God calls us first. "today if you hear His Voice, harden not your hearts." Our work determines the reward.

This is God's Truth throughout the entire Bible.

Gen. 4:7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.

Gen. 26:5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

Duet 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

Mark 8:34 And when he had called the people unto him with his disciples also, he said unto them, Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, (FIRST) and take up his cross, and follow me.

Rom. 2:7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

2 Tim. 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

Rev. 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

From front to back, the same teaching. The only thing that changed is the manner in which these truths are administered, and the way in which our sins are atoned for.

If we want to be Abraham's Children, and heirs to the promise, we must follow the Instructions of the True Savior. Not the Pope, but the Christ Jesus. And He said those who do the "WORKS" of Abraham are heirs to the promise. And what did Abram do when God called him? "So Abram departed, as the LORD had spoken unto him". And God said "BECAUSE" of this, God gave the promise.

I get it Michael, your religion doesn't teach these things. This is why I am here pointing them out. I don't expect you will receive them any more than the mainstream preachers of Christ's did. But it's there just the same. Be a Nicodemus Michael. Look into it.

Title: Re: The Jewish Sabbath .......
Post by: GB on Sun Feb 02, 2020 - 11:31:05
It depends on whose perspective you are speaking to. If you are speaking to God's Perspective, God knows the end from the beginning. God knows who will listen to Him and who will not before He calls them, because according to scriptures, He has already seen their choice. So God chose Abram from the foundation of the world because HE knew Abram would obey Him, because in God's Realm, Abram already did. And God clearly tells us why HE chose Abram, "Because Abram obeyed".

But if you are speaking to Abram's perspective, He didn't know any of these things. He made a choice to follow God knowing it would anger those idolaters he had lived with. He didn't know where he was going, or how he was going to get there. He just bowed himself to his creator and obeyed.

So to Abram, God's call came first, then the choice to believe. "So Abram departed, as the LORD had spoken unto him;"

Of course the question is with regards to what scriptures says about that, and not with regards to God's perspective or Abraham's perspective.

For to even think that you can put yourself in God's perspective, is nothing but arrogance, and certainly a futile exercise. All is but mere guess that results to more questions than answers, which really leads us nowhere. For example, did God create Adam and Eve because He looked into the future and saw that they will sin? What if He had seen otherwise? Can you get into God's perspective and tell us the truth?   

But if we go to scriptures and be faithful to it, not going beyond what is written, God's election and call to Abraham comes first and before Abraham's faith unto obedience.

To my present knowledge, I know no such instance that God told Isaac why He blessed Abraham. But if there was, needles to say, God did not lie, for it is impossible for God to lie.

Are you referring to Gen. 26:1-5? If you are, then you are mistaken. Read again the passage.

Gen. 26:1 And there was a famine in the land, beside the first famine that was in the days of Abraham. And Isaac went unto Abimelech king of the Philistines unto Gerar.

2 And the LORD appeared unto him, and said, Go not down into Egypt; dwell in the land which I shall tell thee of: (Command)

3 Sojourn in this land, and I will be with thee, and will bless thee; for unto thee, and unto thy seed, I will give all these countries, and I will perform the oath which I sware unto Abraham thy father;

4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;

5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

6 And Isaac dwelt in Gerar: (As the Lord had instructed him. Isaac did the "works of Abraham".)

Had Isaac not followed the command of God, would he still be blessed? The Pharisees thought so. Do you?
Title: Re: The Jewish Sabbath .......
Post by: Amo on Sun Feb 02, 2020 - 12:17:40
My disagreement is with the religious practices and doctrines of the organized church with which you defend and promote. Not with you personally.

The Jews also claimed obedience to God's Sabbaths, and yet the Christ rejected them. I understand how easy it is to just attack the messenger, as they did, and you are doing. I was only exposing the glaring hypocrisy of the SDA organization, the same way you expose the hypocrisy of the organized Catholic church every day.

It seems you are more than willing to shell out the corrections, but less willing it seems, to receive them.

Imagine that.

I'm sorry you perceived my disagreement as an attack, as so very many do. I suppose most of us react to disagreement with our own views as an attack of the same. You are preaching to the quire about denominational hypocrisy, including such about SDA's, whom I no longer join in worship due in some part to the same. Standing in the pulpit in front of a symbol representing the three angels of the book of Revelation 14, and saying absolutely nothing about those messages for ten, twelve, fourteen, and or who knows how many years. Still, I have no delusions about my own propensities to hypocrisy just as the rest, including yourself. I simply want no part of silence when the trumpet should be sounding the alarm.

I have an do address and accept of the fact that the SDA church as all others is heading down the wrong path. Nevertheless, that path is back to Rome, where all roads in and of this world lead. No one can take the place or blame allotted to the MOTHER OF HARLOTS. Nor should they. It is only right to trace deception back to its original source. In this new covenant era as far as institutions go, that would be the church of Rome. This is not to mention her non stop ongoing religious and political maneuvers and manipulation throughout the past and in our present. Nevertheless, this does not take away from the hypocrisy of other institutions and individuals as well, including the SDA denomination. Preach it brother.
Title: Re: The Jewish Sabbath .......
Post by: Michael2012 on Sun Feb 02, 2020 - 12:46:10
What was accounted to Abraham for righteousness, was it faith or work?

Again, one can not exist without the other. The Command came first. Abram's choice following the command determined his righteousness, or lack thereof.

James 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? (The Command)

22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works (Obeying the command) was faith made perfect?

23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

Here is the exchange from God's Own Word's.

Gen. 22:16 And said, By myself have I sworn, saith the LORD, for because thou hast done this thing, and hast not withheld thy son, thine only son:

17 That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies;

18 And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.

24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

But if I follow you and Red's religion, I am forced to destroy these Word's of God and omit them completely from my understanding. Why? Because your religion does not promote the same message as the God of the Bible. Do you care? The Pharisees didn't, the wicked kings of Israel didn't. Cain didn't. And from your posts I see you don't either.

But regardless of your purposeful refusals to accept these Word's of God,  the Command comes before any of these things. As the Christ teaches.

Duet. 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

I have answered yet another of your endless questions.

The question is "What was accounted to Abraham for righteousness, was it faith or work?"

Scriptures gives as a clear and direct answer. The answer is faith, not works.

Genesis 15:6 And he believed in the Lord; and he counted it to him for righteousness.

Galatians 3:6Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.

Romans 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

Romans 4:9 Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.

James 2:23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.


There. Deny that, that's up to you.

Quote from: GB
Now answer mine.
 
In your religion, did Abram choose to trust God? Or did God Make Abram HIS Friend?

Yes Abram chose to trust God.

Yes God made Abraham His friend. 
Title: Re: The Jewish Sabbath .......
Post by: RB on Sun Feb 02, 2020 - 13:29:12
God didn't create HIS Word's for people to reject them. That is not the purpose of HIS Word. He didn't create the Commandment for people to omit and ignore. Of this I am sure. His Sabbath wasn't made for the purpose of building a huge, worldly accepted religion surrounding it, nor was it created for the purpose of polluting, omitting or forgetting.
True to your form, you never address my points in the post to you~with a few words addressed to Amo. I know well WHY we have the OT first and then the NT. I know perfectly why the law formally was given to Israel, even though the world had been here for almost ten thousand years~From Adam to the flood was 6000.... from the flood to Abraham another three thousand; Abraham to Moses around 650 years; Moses to Christ to Christ, around 1500 years~ all are around about numbers (but very close)  using the genealogy in Genesis 5, and 10 along with other recorded for us in Matthew 1 and Luke three to determine this~We KNOW that God laws in germ form were given to Adam until Moses when at which point the law was given in a broad scope, yet the same laws summed up in the table of stones that God wrote and gave to Moses for Israel, and many other such laws were added only until the time of reformation which took place during the days of the apostles of Jesus Christ. Much of Israel's laws that governed their worship of God, were ONLY shadows and types imposed on them until Jesus Christ, and then they were no longer needed. The law was given by God to be a SCHOOLMASTER to teach us our need of Christ's faith and righteousness for our justification before the law of God. Once we learn from this good, holy and spiritual schoolmaster, then we are not under him ANY LONGER as a schoolmaster. We will ALWAYS be under the law of God in the sense of it being our knowledge of sin and how to please God and to make us LONG for deliverance from this BODY OF SIN and DEATH that we all live in.
Quote from: Paul
1st Timothy 1:7-9a~"Desiring to be teachers of the law; understanding neither what they say, nor whereof they affirm. But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully; Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man..............."
GB, putting the law of God in your hands is like putting a AutoMag .44 Magnum in the hands of a serial killer. 
Title: Re: The Jewish Sabbath .......
Post by: Michael2012 on Sun Feb 02, 2020 - 13:29:51
Do you consider Abraham's election by God and His promises to him, to mean that he have been saved by God?

Heb. 11:39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: 40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

1 Tim. 6:15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords; 16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.

Abraham is resting in hope, as is David.

Ps. 16:8 I have set the LORD always before me: because he is at my right hand, I shall not be moved. 9 Therefore my heart is glad, and my glory rejoiceth: my flesh also shall rest in hope. 10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell;(Grave) neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. 11 Thou wilt shew me the path of life: in thy presence is fulness of joy; at thy right hand there are pleasures for evermore.

Rom. 8:21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. 23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body. 24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?

I believe that Abraham died in Hope that God would deliver his dead body from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. And all of those who merited God's Election are "waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body".

Has this happened yet for Abraham? "MANY" religions preach it has, but the scriptures say he is still waiting, as am I, for the return of our savior.

The question is not asking whether Abraham's dead body had already been delivered from the bondage of corruption or not.

I'm guessing that your answer to the question "Do you consider Abraham's election by God and His promises to him, to mean that he have been saved by God?", is NO.

As for me, it's a YES.


 
Title: Re: The Jewish Sabbath .......
Post by: GB on Sun Feb 02, 2020 - 13:47:30
I'm sorry you perceived my disagreement as an attack, as so very many do. I suppose most of us react to disagreement with our own views as an attack of the same. You are preaching to the quire about denominational hypocrisy, including such about SDA's, whom I no longer join in worship due in some part to the same. Standing in the pulpit in front of a symbol representing the three angels of the book of Revelation 14, and saying absolutely nothing about those messages for ten, twelve, fourteen, and or who knows how many years. Still, I have no delusions about my own propensities to hypocrisy just as the rest, including yourself. I simply want no part of silence when the trumpet should be sounding the alarm.

I have an do address and accept of the fact that the SDA church as all others is heading down the wrong path. Nevertheless, that path is back to Rome, where all roads in and of this world lead. No one can take the place or blame allotted to the MOTHER OF HARLOTS. Nor should they. It is only right to trace deception back to its original source. In this new covenant era as far as institutions go, that would be the church of Rome. This is not to mention her non stop ongoing religious and political maneuvers and manipulation throughout the past and in our present. Nevertheless, this does not take away from the hypocrisy of other institutions and individuals as well, including the SDA denomination. Preach it brother.

I too, am learning how to deal with the deceptions which surround us. I am a fighter by nature, please forgive my rush to put you in a place you do not dwell. I am reminded of one of the warnings for churches in the latter days, much to my shame.

Rev. 2:1 Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write; These things saith he that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand, who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks; 2 I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars: 3 And hast borne, and hast patience, and for my name's sake hast laboured, and hast not fainted. 4 Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love. 5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent. 6 But this thou hast, that thou hatest the deeds of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate. 7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

I sometimes forget the promises of God, that there are indeed others who also have escaped to snare of Babylon.

Thank you for your patient reminder of this truth.




Title: Re: The Jewish Sabbath .......
Post by: RB on Mon Feb 03, 2020 - 04:38:08
God calls all sinners to repentance, why would Abram be any different?  "Many are called, but few are chosen".

Yes, by God's Grace Abram was called, like all men. "Deny yourself and follow Me". As it is written in the Holy Scriptures "Today, if you hear HIS Voice, harden not your hearts".
Sir, you are deceived and it can be easily proven, most likely not to you but any person willing to trust the scriptures alone will be able to see this for themselves.

You said God calls ALL to repentance and then quoted a scripture where it PLAINLY said that MANY are called! So which is it?  You flipped God's holy calling to his elect totally around and put man at the main focal point of his salvation by man's will making the decisive decision to follow Christ. I'll believe Paul over false prophets like you where he clearly taught the early church:
Quote from: Paul
1st Corinthians 1:26-31~"For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called: But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are: That no flesh should glory in his presence. But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord."
I'll glory in the LORD JEHOVAH GOD, and let you rot in your on sinful flesh that you think has the power to please God APART from his election of pure grace to sinful, wicked men.
Quote
according as it is written
is OT theology as well! Enough, for most likely it is wasted time toward people like you who blindly believe that in his flesh there are some GOOD THINGS apart from the grace of God.
Title: Re: The Jewish Sabbath .......
Post by: Michael2012 on Mon Feb 03, 2020 - 05:27:07
Genesis 12:1 intimates that God had chosen Abraham, where God had spoken to him and had first given him a commandment. That was at a time, when Abraham was dwelling in Ur with his father and kindred who were idolaters, worshiping other gods (Joshua 24:2). It was at a time when he was a sinner, was not yet a friend of God so to speak, and knew not God.


God calls all sinners to repentance, why would Abram be any different?  "Many are called, but few are chosen".

Yes, by God's Grace Abram was called, like all men. "Deny yourself and follow Me". As it is written in the Holy Scriptures "Today, if you hear HIS Voice, harden not your hearts".
Yes God calls all sinners unto repentance, and Abraham was no different in that sense. And in that sense, no man isn't called unto repentance, for all have sinned. But in another sense, the calling of Abraham by God is different, for not only was Abraham called unto repentance as all sinners are, but was chosen by God according to His grace, will and purpose.

Quote from: GB
Abram heard God and didn't harden his heart, but obeyed.

Yes.

Quote from: GB
God Himself said this was the reason HE chose Abram.

Please cite scriptures where God himself says that HE chose Abram by reason of that.

Quote from: GB
Quote from: Michael
God had chosen Abraham by His grace, according to His will and purpose in him, is unmistakable.

No, you are twisting these scriptures. God called Abram first. God called Him to deny himself and follow HIM. Before he was blessed, before he was chosen, while Abram was yet in sin, God called him to "deny himself" and follow God. Abram had two choices. Trust God's Words and obey, reject God's words and disobey.

No GB, you are.

Quote from: GB
Abram chose to trust God.

Yes he did.

Quote from: GB
The God of the Bible Himself tells us God "Chose" Him "BECAUSE" Abraham obeyed.

Gen. 18: 19 For I know him, that he will command his children and his household after him, and they shall keep the way of the LORD, to do justice and judgment; that the LORD may bring upon Abraham that which he hath spoken of him.

Gen. 18:19 For I have chosen him (kî yə-ḏa‘-tîw), so that (lə-ma-‘an ’ă-šer) he will direct his children and his household after him to keep the way of the Lord  by doing what is right and just, so that (lə-ma-‘an) the Lord will bring about for Abraham what he has promised him.”

What scriptures says God says in Gen. 18:19 is that He have chosen Abraham for the purpose that he directs his children and his household after him to keep the way of the Lord  by doing what is right and just, so that He will bring about for Abraham what he has promised him.

Quote from: GB
The biblical Truth is that God, by HIS grace, Called Abram to "deny himself" and follow God FIRST. Abram did as the Lord commanded. And God chose to make him a father of many nations because of Abram's Faithfulness.
The biblical truth is that, by grace, God have chosen Abraham from among all man in Abraham's time according to His will and purpose. God's purpose in him can be found in the promises He gave Abraham. In Gen. 12:1-4, God instructed Abraham to get out of his country, and from his kindred, and from his father's house, unto a land that God will show him. He gave these promises to him, that God will make him into a great nation, will bless him, will make his name great, and he will be a blessing; God  will bless those who bless him and curse those who curses him; and all peoples on earth will be blessed through him. Abraham believed what the Lord had said, and did as the Lord had told him to do.

Quote from: GB
Quote from: Michael
That God had chosen him because of any work that he have done or his obedience, or because he have faith in God, is a lie and is an impossibility, for Abraham knew not God, moreso have faith in Him and obey Him, before God had spoken to him in Gen. 12:1.
You are confused. Abram was called to deny himself before he obeyed, while he was yet in sin. The Call came first as it is clearly written. Abram obeyed the call, God chose Him to be a father of many nations "BECAUSE" HE Obeyed.

Gen. 26:4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;

5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

This is just like the Covenant God made with Levi on behalf of the Children of Israel. You religion doesn't teach these truths therefore you don't know of them. And when some poor slob like my self shows them to you, you call them a liar. And yet, here is God Himself telling you why HE Chose to give Abraham the Promise, and you still refuse to question your own religion.

No GB. I am not the one confused, you are.

When God called Abraham, God, needless to say, first had chosen to call him and not another. And God let Himself be heard by Abram so Abraham could have faith. And so God spoke to him, His message. As faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God, Abraham believed. And believing, he obeyed.

You are confused about Gen. 26:4-5, even making the passage to be saying that there God Himself tells you why HE Chose to give Abraham the Promise, when the said passage is about God speaking to Isaac. Here's the account:

Genesis 26:1 And there was a famine in the land, beside the first famine that was in the days of Abraham. And Isaac went unto Abimelech king of the Philistines unto Gerar.

2 And the Lord appeared unto him, and said, Go not down into Egypt; dwell in the land which I shall tell thee of:

3 Sojourn in this land, and I will be with thee, and will bless thee; for unto thee, and unto thy seed, I will give all these countries, and I will perform the oath which I sware unto Abraham thy father;

4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;

5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.


What the passage actually is about is that, God instructing Isaac not to go to Egypt, and dwell in the land which God shall tell him of, and He will be with Isaac and will do unto Isaac what God said He will do in verses 3-4, and that, because of Abraham's faithfulness to Him.

Would you be humble enough to be corrected, just like when you were corrected about your error regarding justification of sin?

Quote from: GB
Quote from: Michael
Quote from: GB
Is the Christ that said "Why do you call ME Lord, and do not the things I say" the same Christ which said to Abram, "Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee: Did Abram obey or not?
It was not Jesus Christ, but is YHVH or YHWH, who said unto Abram, "Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee" (Gen. 12:1). It was Jesus Christ, that said "And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?"(Luke 6:46).
You didn't answer the question. In Your Religion, Was the God that talked with Abram, the same God that became the man Jesus?

Aren't you being dishonest here? I did answer your question (see quotebox). Obviously you are. That's a shame.

Now, you changed the question. And my answer to that is Yes, in the sense that there is but one God. 

Quote from: GB
Quote from: Michael
After God had chosen Abraham, God gave him a commandment (Gen. 12:1). Next God gave him promises (Gen.12: 2-3). After which, Abraham believed Him who spoke to him, that is, God. Believing, Abraham in hope, obeyed God's command unto him.
God called Abram to deny himself first Michael. Without Abram's choice to obey the call, there would be no new land for Abram, no promise to Abram. God would have called others until someone obeyed the call to deny themselves, and brought them into a new land, and gave them the promise HE offered to Abram.

Not to my reading of Genesis 12:1-4, GB. I don't deny that when faith came to Abraham, Abraham denied himself and obeyed God. But God's election of him among other men in his time, that God let His voice be heard by him, necessarily came first. To say otherwise is clearly foolishness, if not, hardheadedness.

You like us to believe, yet again, that Abraham could have not obeyed God, and in such case God would have called others until someone obeyed, suggesting the possibility of God failing in Abraham. I have rebuked you once on this and here will do so again. If you believe that Abraham could have rejected God, then you give more weight to Abraham's will power than to God's power. We should not forget who God is, and should in no case belittle His power and wisdom. This is all because of the wrong idea about man's free will and power to choose, as though it is over and above that of God's, and as though man truly has the power to resist what God had purposely willed to accomplish. I asked this question to you:

If God had chosen you to be a vessel for His purpose, and spoke to you as He did to Abraham, or to Moses, or to Paul, would you say you could reject and resist God and not do what He tells you to do? Even the hardheaded Pharaoh of Egypt was not able to resist God.

Quote from: GB
God knew what choice Abram would make because HE knows the end from the beginning. But Abram didn't. Abram made the choice to obey God of his own free will. This is why God Chose to give HIM the Promises.

And God Himself tells you this. "today, if you hear HIS Voice, harden not your heart". "Do the works of Abraham".

Sure, we can always say that about God's omniscience. But you seem to not know the implications of your position there. One implication is that, God knew Adam and Eve will sin. With your line of reasoning, it can be argued, in same way you argued about Abraham, that God knew what choice Adam and Eve would make because He knows the end from the beginning. Adam and Eve made the choice to disobey God of their own free will, that is why God chose to create them and give them the commandment. That is just one among the many and more complicated implications of your position.
Title: Re: The Jewish Sabbath .......
Post by: Michael2012 on Mon Feb 03, 2020 - 07:29:01
Quote from: Michael
According to you Faith and obedience are the same thing. According to scriptures, Abraham's faith came first. So that, by faith, Abraham obeyed God.

That's right, Abraham's obedient work showed his faith in God. And that answers the question GB. He had to have faith in the first place so that there is faith to be shown by his obedient work.
Without the Command, there is neither an opportunity for faith, nor the opportunity for obedience. God calls us first. "today if you hear His Voice, harden not your hearts." Our work determines the reward.

This is just repeating your argument, which I had already addressed in my posts. So I will not here repeat myself.

Quote from: GB
This is God's Truth throughout the entire Bible.

Gen. 4:7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.

Gen. 26:5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

Duet 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

Mark 8:34 And when he had called the people unto him with his disciples also, he said unto them, Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, (FIRST) and take up his cross, and follow me.

Rom. 2:7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

2 Tim. 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

Rev. 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

From front to back, the same teaching. The only thing that changed is the manner in which these truths are administered, and the way in which our sins are atoned for.

What you apparently wanted for us to see is man's work, which is obviously what your religion is all about. That's very clear as day now.

Let me share to you some truth in scriptures:

Romans 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.[

2 Thessalonians 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

1 John 4:10 Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.


Quote from: GB
If we want to be Abraham's Children, and heirs to the promise, we must follow the Instructions of the True Savior. Not the Pope, but the Christ Jesus. And He said those who do the "WORKS" of Abraham are heirs to the promise. And what did Abram do when God called him? "So Abram departed, as the LORD had spoken unto him". And God said "BECAUSE" of this, God gave the promise.
Again, you are so into works, so much so, that you seem to make it appear that you get to be Abraham's children and heirs to the promise by your works. But concerning Abraham, this is what scriptures says:

Galatians 3:6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness. 7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.

And scriptures says:

Romans 4:4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.


Title: Re: The Jewish Sabbath .......
Post by: Michael2012 on Mon Feb 03, 2020 - 08:14:38
Quote from: Michael
To my present knowledge, I know no such instance that God told Isaac why He blessed Abraham. But if there was, needles to say, God did not lie, for it is impossible for God to lie.

Are you referring to Gen. 26:1-5? If you are, then you are mistaken. Read again the passage.
Gen. 26:1 And there was a famine in the land, beside the first famine that was in the days of Abraham. And Isaac went unto Abimelech king of the Philistines unto Gerar.

2 And the LORD appeared unto him, and said, Go not down into Egypt; dwell in the land which I shall tell thee of: (Command)

3 Sojourn in this land, and I will be with thee, and will bless thee; for unto thee, and unto thy seed, I will give all these countries, and I will perform the oath which I sware unto Abraham thy father;

4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;

5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

6 And Isaac dwelt in Gerar: (As the Lord had instructed him. Isaac did the "works of Abraham".)

Had Isaac not followed the command of God, would he still be blessed? The Pharisees thought so. Do you?

I can see that you accept and don't dispute the truth that the passage is not about God saying to Isaac why He blessed Abraham. That's good.

Your new question, "Had Isaac not followed the command of God, would he still be blessed?".

I think God would have His way so that He can bring upon Isaac, and so then upon Abraham, that which He hath spoken and promised. In other words, I don't see the possibility of God failing to bring upon Isaac and Abraham, that which He promised. Should Isaac had not followed the command of God there, that will not stop God from fulfilling His promise nor thwart it. The most that may result out of that is Isaac experience the discipline of God unto his being obedient.   
Title: Re: The Jewish Sabbath .......
Post by: GB on Mon Feb 03, 2020 - 09:17:31
 author=RB link=topic=105259.msg1055155601#msg1055155601 date=1580671752]
Quote
True to your form, you never address my points in the post to you~with a few words addressed to Amo. I know well WHY we have the OT first and then the NT. I know perfectly why the law formally was given to Israel, even though the world had been here for almost ten thousand years~From Adam to the flood was 6000.... from the flood to Abraham another three thousand; Abraham to Moses around 650 years; Moses to Christ to Christ, around 1500 years~ all are around about numbers (but very close)  using the genealogy in Genesis 5, and 10 along with other recorded for us in Matthew 1 and Luke three to determine this~We KNOW that God laws in germ form were given to Adam until Moses when at which point the law was given in a broad scope, yet the same laws summed up in the table of stones that God wrote and gave to Moses for Israel, and many other such laws were added only until the time of reformation which took place during the days of the apostles of Jesus Christ.

How convenient for you Red. "We KNOW that God laws in germ form were given to Adam until Moses".

What great religious man did you get this philosophy from? "Germ form" Wow! Are men infected with God's Law? I guess for a person who preaches they are "Beggarly Elements" this is to be expected.

I am always fascinated by the efforts the mainstream preachers of Christ's time went to preserve their own religious doctrines and traditions of men. But they pale in comparison to modern preachers. Why didn't they just examine the scriptures Jesus and the Prophets pointed out to them. It seems so simple.

But then I remember, God brought a liar into the garden to test Eve, to see if she would choose God's Words or the words of the liar. So also will He require all men to choose between HIS Judgments and lies. So the mainstream preachers of HIS time were there to test people. Those who choose God's Word over the religions of the land are given the promise. As Jesus said "Offenses must come".


Quote
Much of Israel's laws that governed their worship of God, were ONLY shadows and types imposed on them until Jesus Christ, and then they were no longer needed. The law was given by God to be a SCHOOLMASTER to teach us our need of Christ's faith and righteousness for our justification before the law of God. Once we learn from this good, holy and spiritual schoolmaster, then we are not under him ANY LONGER as a schoolmaster.

I am always fascinated by your willful refusal to accept, discuss or examine the clear separation God made between the Levites and Israel on Mt. Sinai. Along with the clear separation between the Levitical Priesthood Covenant God made with Levi on Israel's behalf and the Judgments of God.

The Pharisees were not trying to get folks to honor God's Judgments. Red, this is an insidious lie that Jesus exposes with every Word HE spoke concerning them. Jesus HIMSELF said they had omitted them from their religion. They rejected the Law of Mercy, they omitted the law of Faith, along with God's Judgments. But they refused to accept the Messiah had come which according to Jer. 31, signaled the end of the Levitical Priesthood with it's administration of God's Judgments they had corrupted and "works of the Law" for atonement of sins.

Why do you willfully ignore such truths? It is truly an offence.

The Law that the Pharisees were trying to force on the people for justification, was the Levitical Priesthood. They promoted the religious belief that before sins could be atoned for, it was required that a man go to the Levite Priest, who would them perform exclusive Levitical Priesthood "Works of the Law" for atonement and justification. "You must do the Law of Moses".

The LAW that was "ADDED" "till the SEED should come" was not Love God and Love your neighbor, or any of God's Judgments which are eternal. Cain and Able and Abraham all knew these judgments of God. Why do you think Abraham pleaded on Sodom's behalf? Why was Abimelech quick to point out his innocence? He knew the judgment, and the punishment.

The teaching that God's Judgments, including His Judgment about what day is Holy, and what is clean, were unknown to the folks in Genesis is just another lie from the serpent.

These Laws/Judgments of God bring us closer to God as they are HIS judgments, but they didn't lead Israel to the Christ and HIS Sacrifice for their sins. The Levitical Priesthood with it's sacrificial "Works of the Law" were designed to bring them to the Christ, to show them what He would do for them "after those days". This is the Law that the Jews were still pushing on folks. This is the Law that was added, that provided for two things. #1. How God's Judgments were delivered to the people. #2. How transgression of these judgments were atoned for.

This is the school master Paul spoke of that was "Added" Till the Seed should come. Not the 2 greatest commandments and the law and prophets which define them.

The mainstream preachers of Jesus' time refused to accept the end of their Priesthood, which was to lead them to Christ. They had corrupted it and created their own religious surrounding it, As Jesus pointed out in Matt. 23.

You preaching that God's Judgments were to lead us to Christ, then HIS Judgments are done away with is the lie. It is the offense.


Quote
We will ALWAYS be under the law of God in the sense of it being our knowledge of sin and how to please God and to make us LONG for deliverance from this BODY OF SIN and DEATH that we all live in.  GB, putting the law of God in your hands is like putting a AutoMag .44 Magnum in the hands of a serial killer.

What you mean is, in your religion, now that God has come in the flesh, we are only to be hearers of God's judgments, and not actually doers.

It's the same lie the serpent told Eve.

Title: Re: The Jewish Sabbath .......
Post by: GB on Mon Feb 03, 2020 - 09:53:50
 author=RB link=topic=105259.msg1055155624#msg1055155624 date=1580726288]
Quote
Sir, you are deceived and it can be easily proven, most likely not to you but any person willing to trust the scriptures alone will be able to see this for themselves.

You said God calls ALL to repentance and then quoted a scripture where it PLAINLY said that MANY are called! So which is it?

Heb. 13:1 Let brotherly love continue.

2 Be not forgetful to entertain strangers: for thereby some have entertained angels unawares.


You are the deceiver here Red. You and your preaching that God's Judgments are "Beggarly Elements"


Quote
You flipped God's holy calling to his elect totally around and put man at the main focal point of his salvation by man's will making the decisive decision to follow Christ. I'll believe Paul over false prophets like you where he clearly taught the early church:

Rom. 1:13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

1 cor. 7:18 Is any man called being circumcised? let him not become uncircumcised. Is any called in uncircumcision? let him not be circumcised. 19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.

2 Tim. 2:18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; (Already saved) and overthrow the faith of some.

19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

Acts 24:14 But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:

15 And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.


You might believe the Pope John Paul, but not the Biblical Paul.

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I'll glory in the LORD JEHOVAH GOD, and let you rot in your on sinful flesh that you think has the power to please God APART from his election of pure grace to sinful, wicked men. is OT theology as well! Enough, for most likely it is wasted time toward people like you who blindly believe that in his flesh there are some GOOD THINGS apart from the grace of God.

1 John 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

If I "yield myself" as Paul instructed, to be a "doer" of the Christ's Words, (Spirit and Life) as opposed to the Popes words, or yours, or my own. It is not my work, or man's work, but HIS Work that I am yielding to.

Where as religious men, who look at God's Judgment, That is, HIS definition of Holy, HIS Definition of Clean, HIS definition of Righteousness, His definition of Love, and judge them as "Beggarly Elements" and refuse them in favor of their own vision, as did Eve, these men are trying to enter heaven by their own works, as did the Mainstream preachers of Jesus' time.

Your anger is prophesied, you will not be able to contain it.



Title: Re: The Jewish Sabbath .......
Post by: RB on Mon Feb 03, 2020 - 13:29:20
Heb. 13:1 Let brotherly love continue.

2 Be not forgetful to entertain strangers: for thereby some have entertained angels unawares.
Are you drunk?  What does Hebrews 13:1,2 have to do with my question to you? I said:
Quote
You said God calls ALL to repentance and then quoted a scripture where it PLAINLY said that MANY are called! So which is it?
AS ALWAYS~This along with so many other of your "small circle of scriptures" that you use are not even related to the topic at hand. I would expect this from grammar school children learning how to debate, but not from men/women who think they know. I said to you:
Quote from: RB on: Today at 04:38:08
You flipped God's holy calling to his elect totally around and put man at the main focal point of his salvation by man's will making the decisive decision to follow Christ. I'll believe Paul over false prophets like you where he clearly taught the early church:
And you came back with these words?
Quote from: GB on: Today at 09:53:50
Rom. 1:13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

1 cor. 7:18 Is any man called being circumcised? let him not become uncircumcised. Is any called in uncircumcision? let him not be circumcised. 19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.

2 Tim. 2:18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; (Already saved) and overthrow the faith of some.

19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

Acts 24:14 But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:

15 And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.
AFTER I quoted
Quote
1st Corinthians 1:26-31~"For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called: But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are: That no flesh should glory in his presence. But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord."
Why did you NOT addressed THESE scriptures from Paul and let us ALL see just who you are truly following? You said:
Quote from: GB on: Today at 09:53:50
You might believe the Pope John Paul, but not the Biblical Paul.
It is clear to any HONEST and SINCERE lover of the truth who is following whom!
Quote
Your anger is prophesied, you will not be able to contain it.
The word of God said to be angry AND SIN NOT~just as Jesus was angry and overthrew the tables of the money changer and drove them out of the temple of God~so I'm I toward those who labor to pervert the gospel of my Lord Jesus Christ! A Holy angry spirit is being Christ-like. I evidently shook you up somewhat because of your strange response back using scriptures that had no bearing on what was being addressed!
Title: Re: The Jewish Sabbath .......
Post by: GB on Tue Feb 04, 2020 - 10:41:15
 author=RB link=topic=105259.msg1055155658#msg1055155658 date=1580758160]
Quote
Are you drunk?  What does Hebrews 13:1,2 have to do with my question to you?

Your question. "You said God calls ALL to repentance and then quoted a scripture where it PLAINLY said that MANY are called! So which is it?"

In your religion, would God call the angels that dwell among us, that we can not discern are angels?

Or these;

2 Cor. 11:13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.

14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.

15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

In your religion, would God call these folks? Of course not. Abraham was not part of this group.

Therefore "Many" are called.

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I said: AS ALWAYS~This along with so many other of your "small circle of scriptures" that you use are not even related to the topic at hand.

You say a lot of things Red. I don't discard any scriptures because they all teach the same thing. "If you do well, shall you not be accepted".

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I would expect this from grammar school children learning how to debate, but not from men/women who think they know. I said to you: And you came back with these words? AFTER I quoted Why did you NOT addressed THESE scriptures from Paul and let us ALL see just who you are truly following?

Paul isn't saying anything here that He didn't say in the scriptures I posted, or in any of his teaching. Nor is he twisting Isaiah's Words from which he found this quote, to contradict the teaching of Isaiah.


Paul believed in "ALL" that Isaiah said, from his own admission. And Isaiah word's crush modern religious doctrines and traditions, and exposes them as the doctrines and traditions of men they are.

So you are free to pick and choose then twist Isaiah's word's and Paul's words in order to promote your religion, just as the mainstream preachers of Jesus' time used scriptures to justify their lifestyle.

But Paul never engaged in such activity. Just as he never called God's Commandments "Beggarly Elements".

These are your religious traditions.


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You said:  It is clear to any HONEST and SINCERE lover of the truth who is following whom! The word of God said to be angry AND SIN NOT~just as Jesus was angry and overthrew the tables of the money changer and drove them out of the temple of God~so I'm I toward those who labor to pervert the gospel of my Lord Jesus Christ! A Holy angry spirit is being Christ-like. I evidently shook you up somewhat because of your strange response back using scriptures that had no bearing on what was being addressed!

No Red, LOL, you didn't "shake me up". I just know why Jesus said "Many" are called. And "many" come in His Name to deceive, and "many" call Him Lord, Lord, but consider His Word's "Beggarly Elements", and "Many" are on the path to destruction.

God also called "MANY" in Abraham's time as HE is no respecter of persons. That is why it is written; "Today, if you hear HIS Voice, harden not your hearts". Abraham was called by God's Grace, and Abraham humbled Himself to God's calling. The men of Sodom, not so much.

And it is "BECAUSE" of this "work" that Abraham was blessed, by God's Own Word's.

Gen. 22:10 And Abraham stretched forth his hand, and took the knife to slay his son.

11 And the angel of the LORD called unto him out of heaven, and said, Abraham, Abraham: and he said, Here am I.

12 And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, (BECAUSE)  seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me.

So now that I have these examples God had written for my admonition;

Heb. 12:1 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,

Jesus doesn't run the race for me Red. At least not the Jesus of the Bible.

2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

Notice he doesn't say "Looking unto the Great Religious Philosophers and Religious Theologians of the world."

My disagreement with you is founded 100% in the scriptures. They teach one thing, and you teach another. I have laid before me a choice, life or death, as God laid before Eve and Abraham. God, in HIS Tender Mercy instructed, pleaded, asked me to choose Life of my own accord. Why??? Because God renderers to each man according to his works.

Matt. 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

Job. 34:10 Therefore hearken unto me, ye men of understanding: far be it from God, that he should do wickedness; and from the Almighty, that he should commit iniquity.

11 For the work of a man shall he render unto him, and cause every man to find according to his ways. 12 Yea, surely God will not do wickedly, neither will the Almighty pervert judgment.

2 Cor. 5:9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him. 10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

1 Peter 1:16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy. 17 And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:

Psalms 62:11 God hath spoken once; twice have I heard this; that power belongeth unto God. 12 Also unto thee, O Lord, belongeth mercy: for thou renderest to every man according to his work.

Prov. 24:12 If thou sayest, Behold, we knew it not; doth not he that pondereth the heart consider it? and he that keepeth thy soul, doth not he know it? and shall not he render to every man according to his works?

Col. 3:23 And whatsoever ye do, do it heartily, as to the Lord, and not unto men; 24 Knowing that of the Lord ye shall receive the reward of the inheritance: for ye serve the Lord Christ. 25 But he that doeth wrong shall receive for the wrong which he hath done: and there is no respect of persons.

1 Cor. 3:8 Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour.

This is the Biblical Truth from the very beginning of God's Word, "If you do well, shall you not be accepted", to the very End of God's Word.

Rev. 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

The serpent convinced EVE that she was already saved, already given eternal life and that her "works" had nothing to do with her salvation.

It was a lie when the serpent told it, and it's still a lie when you teach it. Not because I say so, but because God says so over and over and over and over and over and over.

Today if you hear HIS Voice, Harden not your hearts. Be a Nicodemus Red. "Come out of her".





Title: Re: The Jewish Sabbath .......
Post by: Michael2012 on Tue Feb 04, 2020 - 11:57:02
The serpent convinced EVE that she was already saved, already given eternal life and that her "works" had nothing to do with her salvation.

In what Bible can we read that? CAn you tell us what Bible you read? 
Title: Re: The Jewish Sabbath .......
Post by: Amo on Sat Feb 08, 2020 - 18:28:46
In what Bible can we read that? CAn you tell us what Bible you read?

Just jumping in here.

Gen 3:1 Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden? 2 And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden: 3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die. 4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: 5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

The scriptures of course do not specifically say such, but it is no stretch to see that such is implied in the declaration of Satan that eve would not die, but rather be made as unto a god. People who won't die have immortality. Most god's I do believe, are also believed to have immortality. Thus the message is somewhat plainly, disobey God and have immortality and become a god in doing so.
Title: Re: The Jewish Sabbath .......
Post by: Michael2012 on Sat Feb 08, 2020 - 21:01:15
Quote from: GB
The serpent convinced EVE that she was already saved, already given eternal life and that her "works" had nothing to do with her salvation.
Quote from: Michael
In what Bible can we read that? CAn you tell us what Bible you read?
Just jumping in here.

Gen 3:1 Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden? 2 And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden: 3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die. 4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: 5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

The scriptures of course do not specifically say such, but it is no stretch to see that such is implied in the declaration of Satan that eve would not die, but rather be made as unto a god. People who won't die have immortality. Most god's I do believe, are also believed to have immortality. Thus the message is somewhat plainly, disobey God and have immortality and become a god in doing so.

It's ok to jump in Amo. Seemingly, GB jumped out. And I'm not surprised at all in such situation when one finds himself taken aback, and that, by the truth.

Why would it not be a stretch when such scriptures are taken to mean something as that serpent convinced EVE that she was already saved, already given eternal life and that her "works" had nothing to do with her salvation?

Regarding those scriptures, Eve needed no salvation then. The serpent indeed convinced Eve, but not that she was already saved, already given eternal life and that her "works" had nothing to do with her salvation, but that she shall not surely die when she eats of the forbidden fruit and be like god and make her wise. She was deceived into believing that God lied to Adam regarding that.

Now making the passage say something it clearly does not say, such as that which GB there says ~ what could such work be? Is that work good or evil? Of God or of the ancient Serpent?   
Title: Re: The Jewish Sabbath .......
Post by: GB on Sun Feb 09, 2020 - 07:45:19
Just jumping in here.

Gen 3:1 Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden? 2 And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden: 3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die. 4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: 5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

The scriptures of course do not specifically say such, but it is no stretch to see that such is implied in the declaration of Satan that eve would not die, but rather be made as unto a god. People who won't die have immortality. Most god's I do believe, are also believed to have immortality. Thus the message is somewhat plainly, disobey God and have immortality and become a god in doing so.

Yes, that is satan's message. The Serpent convinced Eve she had eternal life first. That is the first part of satan's deception. "You shall not die", you are already immortal, already saved from death regardless of what you do.

And it went on to relay the popular religious teaching that God's Judgment makes you blind, burdened. A yoke of bondage designed to keep you blind.

5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, (In the day that you reject God's Judgment) then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

Satan is teaching that only by rejecting the Commandment of God, and using your own judgment can your blindness be truly healed.

And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

But notice, she didn't just judge God's Word as not worthy of her respect and Honor, she also taught everyone else around her to do the same. She was truly the first human to be snared by satan to do it's will, which is to turn people away from the Judgments of God.

And the deception began with "you are already saved from death" regardless of what you do.

What a Great, Wise and Merciful Christ we have to show us from the very beginning, the intent of "other religious voices" surrounding us.

I find it remarkable that the serpent is still using the exact same tactics today including quoting some of God's Word to further its deception. And "Many, who come in His Name,  (woman bride, church) has fallen for it once again.

I am comforted that you understand these truths Amo.

You have a great day  ::smile:: ::smile:: ::smile::




Title: Re: The Jewish Sabbath .......
Post by: Michael2012 on Sun Feb 09, 2020 - 09:30:38
Yes, that is satan's message. The Serpent convinced Eve she had eternal life first. That is the first part of satan's deception. "You shall not die", you are already immortal, already saved from death regardless of what you do.

And I quote "Yes, that is satan's message."

Eve needed no salvation then. The serpent indeed convinced Eve, but not that she was already saved, already given eternal life and that her "works" had nothing to do with her salvation. How could that be about the matter of salvation when Eve was without sin then. That is an obvious twisting of scriptures.

What the serpent told Eve is that she shall not surely die when she eats of the forbidden fruit. The serpent was out to deceive Eve into believing that God lied to Adam regarding that part of the commandment. The serpent went on with this by telling Eve, "Ye shall not surely die: For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil." The Serpent was convincing Eve that, if she ate of the forbidden fruit, she shall be as gods, like god. What that implies is not that Eve was already immortal, already saved from death regardless of what she do, but that, she isn't a god and have no knowledge of good and evil. 

Eve later learned that the serpent deceived her.

Gen. 3:13 And the Lord God said unto the woman, What is this that thou hast done? And the woman said, The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat.

What was the deception? That God lied when He said that they shall surely die in the day that they eat of the tree, with the serpent telling Eve "Ye shall not surely die". The serpent tricked her, that God don't want them to know good and evil, telling her that in the day she eat thereof, her eyes shall be opened, and she shall be as gods, knowing good and evil. It's nothing of the sort of what you say here, that she is already saved from death regardless of what she do.
Title: Re: The Jewish Sabbath .......
Post by: Amo on Sun Feb 09, 2020 - 12:25:14
The battle between Satan the fallen angel, and God which started in heaven, continued and took residence in the Garden of Eden. This world was created exactly to address the subject of sin and death which began in heaven when Lucifer rebelled against God's rule. Thus was our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ the  - Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. Rev. 13:8 Therefore do the scriptures declare - Eph 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: 4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

The question was and is, can a created being live and exist apart from their creator who also sustains them moment by moment. The answer is no. Though God has allowed for the rejection of His righteous authority, until all opposed to it may be pointed out as the evil they are and represent, He will not sustain them forever. He has chosen a day in which He will cut them off in righteousness, and punish them for the wickedness they are and have been guilty of in rebellion against Him. Each and everyone of us will make this decision which no other can make for us. No decision is a decision. Will we submit to Gods' righteous, holy, pure, and proven authority or not? Jesus Christ proved all of the afore mentioned in His life, death, and resurrection for us as God and man. Will we submit to God in Christ Jesus or not? This was the issue in the Garden of Eden, and the issue Jesus Christ addressed by type and shadow during the old covenant, and as the Son and Lamb of God during this new covenant era.

Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? 22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: 23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, 24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles? 25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved. 26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God. 27 Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved: 28 For he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth. 29 And as Esaias said before, Except the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed, we had been as Sodoma, and been made like unto Gomorrha.

Act 17:31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.



Title: Re: The Jewish Sabbath .......
Post by: GB on Mon Feb 10, 2020 - 08:04:10
 author=Michael2012 link=topic=105259.msg1055156057#msg1055156057 date=1581262238]
Quote
And I quote "Yes, that is satan's message."

Eve needed no salvation then.

No, the satanic message from the "other religious voice" from the very beginning, was not that we don't need salvation as you promote here, but that we already have it regardless of anything we do.

"For God doeth know".

That was satan's message to Eve.
Title: Re: The Jewish Sabbath .......
Post by: Michael2012 on Mon Feb 10, 2020 - 08:39:59
Eve needed no salvation then. The serpent indeed convinced Eve, but not that she was already saved, already given eternal life and that her "works" had nothing to do with her salvation. How could that be about the matter of salvation when Eve was without sin then. That is an obvious twisting of scriptures.
No, the satanic message from the "other religious voice" from the very beginning, was not that we don't need salvation as you promote here, but that we already have it regardless of anything we do.

"For God doeth know".

That was satan's message to Eve.
Why my statement was isolated from the rest of my post (in orange fonts), could only mean to take it out of context. That's not good. 

Yes, we hear your voice. It says "The Serpent convinced Eve she had eternal life first" and that "you are already immortal, already saved from death regardless of what you do.", while scriptures doesn't at all say any of that, but that the serpent says to Eve,  "Ye shall not surely die:For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil." Even you perhaps was deceived by the serpent, that you don't even know the lie, the deception, in what the serpent said there.

And yes I hear your voice which falsely accuse me of saying "we don't need salvation as you promote here, but that we already have it regardless of anything we do." And I here will categorically say that it is not what I say at all.

Title: Re: The Jewish Sabbath .......
Post by: Michael2012 on Mon Feb 10, 2020 - 10:19:54
Will we submit to Gods' righteous, holy, pure, and proven authority or not? Jesus Christ proved all of the afore mentioned in His life, death, and resurrection for us as God and man. Will we submit to God in Christ Jesus or not? This was the issue in the Garden of Eden, and the issue Jesus Christ addressed by type and shadow during the old covenant, and as the Son and Lamb of God during this new covenant era.

That is your opinion and is what you present here. But there never was such an issue in the garden of Eden regarding that.
Title: Re: The Jewish Sabbath .......
Post by: GB on Mon Feb 10, 2020 - 10:29:19
No, the satanic message from the "other religious voice" from the very beginning, was not that we don't need salvation as you promote here, but that we already have it regardless of anything we do.

"For God doeth know".

That was satan's message to Eve.


Yes, we hear your voice. It says "The Serpent convinced Eve she had eternal life first" and that "you are already immortal, already saved from death regardless of what you do.", while scriptures doesn't at all say any of that, but that the serpent says to Eve,  "Ye shall not surely die:For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil." Even you perhaps was deceived by the serpent, that you don't even know the lie, the deception, in what the serpent said there.

And yes I hear your voice which falsely accuse me of saying "we don't need salvation as you promote here, but that we already have it regardless of anything we do." And I here will categorically say that it is not what I say at all.

Well you said:"
Quote
Eve needed no salvation then
." Implying that this was the meaning of my post. Then you went on to say:
Quote
How could that be about the matter of salvation when Eve was without sin then

So any reasonable person would believe you are promoting the idea that Eve didn't need salvation, or that this scripture had nothing to do with salvation.

And yet Salvation is the only deterrent from death in this world. Without Salvation, no one lives. And the serpent convinced Eve she was already immune from death. A person who shall not die, lives forever. This is the very definition of eternal life. If you are so blind you can't put these things together, then that kind of blindness is well beyond by power to fix.

The argument was "If you break the Command, you shall surely die.

The religious voice came in and told Eve, "You shall surely not die". No conditions, no obedience, no nothing. Satan convinced Eve God chose her to live forever regardless of anything she does, or doesn't do. This teaching was a deception then, and it is still a deception today.


What I am pointing out is that this teaching of satan that God chose Eve to live forever, regardless of her respect or lack thereof for HIS Judgments, is the deception. It is the lie.

This teaching that God's Judgment burdened Eve with Blindness, and the only way to be rid of this blindness is to reject a Judgment of God, and replace HIS judgment with her own, is the deception, it is the lie.

You inability or refusal to accept these truths doesn't make void the lesson God has shared with us in this first recorded deception.






 



Title: Re: The Jewish Sabbath .......
Post by: Michael2012 on Mon Feb 10, 2020 - 11:19:20
Well you said:
Quote
"Eve needed no salvation then."
Implying that this was the meaning of my post. Then you went on to say:
Quote
How could that be about the matter of salvation when Eve was without sin then
So any reasonable person would believe you are promoting the idea that Eve didn't need salvation, or that this scripture had nothing to do with salvation.

Yes, I said that, but not without those you omitted in my post.

Of course that was not what your post was saying. I was the one saying that Eve needed no salvation then. How can you not understand what I said in my post as follows:

Eve needed no salvation then. The serpent indeed convinced Eve, but not that she was already saved, already given eternal life and that her "works" had nothing to do with her salvation. How could that be about the matter of salvation when Eve was without sin then. That is an obvious twisting of scriptures.

Nice try, but it fails to take away the fact that you isolated that statement (bold orange fonts) from the rest of my post out from the context, which is not good at all.

Quote from: GB
And yet Salvation is the only deterrent from death in this world. Without Salvation, no one lives. And the serpent convinced Eve she was already immune from death. A person who shall not die, lives forever. This is the very definition of eternal life. If you are so blind you can't put these things together, then that kind of blindness is well beyond by power to fix.

First, you insist on preaching that the serpent convinced Eve she was already immune from death. When considering the passage,...

Gen. 3:2 And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden: 3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die. 4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: 5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

... the truth is that the serpent in saying "Ye shall not surely die" in verse 4 isn't really to tell Eve that she was already immortal or already have eternal life, but to tell Eve that God lied when He said that she will surely die in the day she eat thereof. And in verse 5 the serpent tells us his reason why he said that she will not surely die. And it's not because Eve has eternal life or that she is already immortal, as you want us to believe.

Second, that eternal life is not how you define it there.

Quote from: GB
The argument was "If you break the Command, you shall surely die.
Read the commandment again and this time, with thought.

Quote from: GB
The religious voice came in and told Eve, "You shall surely not die". No conditions, no obedience, no nothing. Satan convinced Eve God chose her to live forever regardless of anything she does, or doesn't do. This teaching was a deception then, and it is still a deception today.

No religious voice came in GB. It's the serpent's voice that came to Eve. And nothing of what you preach that Satan convinced Eve God chose her to live forever regardless of anything she does, or doesn't do. Why such twisting GB? 

Quote from: GB
What I am pointing out is that this teaching of satan that God chose Eve to live forever, regardless of her respect or lack thereof for HIS Judgments, is the deception. It is the lie.

This teaching that God's Judgment burdened Eve with Blindness, and the only way to be rid of this blindness is to reject a Judgment of God, and replace HIS judgment with her own, is the deception, it is the lie.

Who teaches that GB? An imaginary straw man perhaps?

Quote from: GB
You inability or refusal to accept these truths doesn't make void the lesson God has shared with us in this first recorded deception.

What truth are you talking about? Your wrong opinions and twisting of scriptures?
Title: Re: The Jewish Sabbath .......
Post by: Cobalt1959 on Thu Feb 13, 2020 - 03:33:26
Quote
The Sabbath, as described by the Christ who created, Sanctified and Hallowed it, is a day of no work. Therefore, there must be things prepared on the 6th day so as to concentrate on "not polluting His Holy Sabbath" on the 7th. This foreshadows our walk so as to be prepared when He comes. (ie, 10 virgins)

Is. 58:13 If thou turn away thy foot from the sabbath, from doing thy pleasure on my holy day; and call the sabbath a delight, the holy of the LORD, honourable; and shalt honour him, not doing thine own ways, nor finding thine own pleasure, nor speaking thine own words:

 


14 Then shalt thou delight thyself in the LORD; and I will cause thee to ride upon the high places of the earth, and feed thee with the heritage of Jacob thy father: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it.

Passover is actually a day of preparation for the "First Day on unleavened Bread", another Holy Feast of the Christ. There were two Holy, Sanctified Sabbaths the week Jesus was crucified. One, started at sundown the day He was killed, the other after Mary purchased spices for the burial.

Also, The Sabbath's of the Holy Christ were HIS Sabbaths, not the Jews. He Gave His Sabbaths to the Jews who despised them and Polluted them. Like preaching that a man couldn't lawfully take a walk and pick a strawberry to eat on the His Holy Sabbath.

So you are claiming that you do NO work on Saturday?
Title: Re: The Jewish Sabbath .......
Post by: GB on Thu Feb 13, 2020 - 10:58:36
So you are claiming that you do NO work on Saturday?

"work" as defined by the Law and Prophets, of course. Why would I call Jesus Lord, Lord, and willfully reject one of His Commandments HE said was made for man?

Would I go to a strip club in order to honor "Thou shall not commit Adultery"?

Who would try and convince me to do such things? The Spirit of God? I think not.
Title: Re: The Jewish Sabbath .......
Post by: Michael2012 on Fri Feb 14, 2020 - 03:22:47
Quote from: Cobalt1959 on Yesterday at 03:33:26
So you are claiming that you do NO work on Saturday?
"work" as defined by the Law and Prophets, of course. Why would I call Jesus Lord, Lord, and willfully reject one of His Commandments HE said was made for man?

Would I go to a strip club in order to honor "Thou shall not commit Adultery"?

Who would try and convince me to do such things? The Spirit of God? I think not.

So, on the seventh day, you do no work, you, nor your son, nor your daughter, your manservant, nor your maidservant, nor your cattle? Yes or no?

So, you do not light a fire in any of your dwellings on the seventh day? Yes or no?
Title: Re: The Jewish Sabbath .......
Post by: Michael2012 on Fri Feb 14, 2020 - 04:16:08
Exodus 20:8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.

9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:

10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:

11 For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.


To those who claim to observe and keep this commandment, and some of which perhaps even say that one will not be saved if he does not. May I ask these simple questions.

On the seventh day, do you do no work, you, nor your son, nor your daughter, your manservant, nor your maidservant, nor your cattle, nor your horse, nor your employees? Yes or no?

Do you not light a fire in any of your dwellings on the seventh day? Yes or no?

Do you take the seventh day as the period from sixth-day sundown to seventh-day sundown? Yes or no? If no, what then?

Do you work in all of the six days, that is, including Sunday, not a day idle?
Title: Re: The Jewish Sabbath .......
Post by: GB on Fri Feb 14, 2020 - 20:55:22
"work" as defined by the Law and Prophets, of course. Why would I call Jesus Lord, Lord, and willfully reject one of His Commandments HE said was made for man?

Would I go to a strip club in order to honor "Thou shall not commit Adultery"?

Who would try and convince me to do such things? The Spirit of God? I think not.


So, on the seventh day, you do no work, you, nor your son, nor your daughter, your manservant, nor your maidservant, nor your cattle? Yes or no?

So, you do not light a fire in any of your dwellings on the seventh day? Yes or no?

4 Then said the LORD unto Moses, Behold, I will rain bread from heaven for you; and the people shall go out and gather a certain rate every day, that I may prove them, whether they will walk in my law, or no.

5 And it shall come to pass, that on the sixth day they shall prepare that which they bring in; and it shall be twice as much as they gather daily.

No, I don't cook my food on the Christ's Sabbath. I prepare food for this day on the day before. You wouldn't understand being puffed up by your fleshy mind. If you understood about the 10 virgins, you would understand what it means to "prepare" for the Sabbath Rest of God.

Let me ask you a question now. "Would you go to a strip club in order to honor "Thou shall not commit Adultery"?

Again; "Today, if you hear His Voice" say " Thou shalt not kill".

Would you run out and Kill?

Again "Today, if you hear His Voice" say "Thou shalt not steal"

Would you run out and shoplift?

 I'm going out on a limb here and assume that you agree with these Judgments of God, and that after you hear them, you didn't despise them by openly transgressing them.

But what about the Commandment God gave to prove whether or not men would walk in His Judgments?

8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: 10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:

So "today, if you hear HIS Voice" say these things, why do you run out and reject this Judgment of God? Didn't the Same God who created "Thou shall not kill", also command you to "Keep the 7th Day Holy"?

Who convinced you that you could judge one Commandment of God as worthy of your honor and respect, and another Commandment of God  unworthy of your honor and respect? Doesn't that make you a "Judge" of God's Word?

Isn't you promoting this "Partiality in God's Law" the same thing the Levites did?

Mal. 2:7 For the priest's lips should keep knowledge, and they should seek the law at his mouth: for he is the messenger of the LORD of hosts.

8 But ye are departed out of the way; ye have caused many to stumble at the law; ye have corrupted the covenant of Levi, saith the LORD of hosts.

9 Therefore have I also made you contemptible and base before all the people, according as ye have not kept my ways, but have been partial in the law.

Isn't this the exact same thing Jesus reject the Mainstream Preachers of HIS Time for?

Matt. 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

I do not work for money on the Christ's Sabbath. My business is closed, and those dozen or so people who work for me go home to their families.

I am sharing this with you because you asked. For me it is simply my reasonable service. I am purchased by this Creator who created HIS Sabbath for man. Why would I call this Creator of HIS Holy Sabbath "Lord, Lord, and then reject HIS judgments and follow my own, or yours, or the Popes instead? Especially when I have been warned so many times about religious men who would deceive me into disobedience as was Eve.

I know Jesus said it would be this way, but frankly, it always amazes me to see how hard religious men work to justify their blatant disobedience to the God of the Bible, when it would be so much easier and simpler to just "yield themselves" to Him as instructed. Yes, it would be humiliating for a time, and other religious men would hate you, but being free from all the hypocrisy and deception from the religions of the land is truly worth it, not to mention the promises of God to "show Mercy to those who Love Him and Keep His Commandments".

But He did Prophesy of this very thing.

Jer. 6:16 Thus saith the LORD, Stand ye in the ways, and see, and ask for the old paths, where is the good way, and walk therein, and ye shall find rest for your souls. But they said, We will not walk therein.

As it is to this day.

Title: Re: The Jewish Sabbath .......
Post by: Michael2012 on Sat Feb 15, 2020 - 06:39:04
4 Then said the LORD unto Moses, Behold, I will rain bread from heaven for you; and the people shall go out and gather a certain rate every day, that I may prove them, whether they will walk in my law, or no.

5 And it shall come to pass, that on the sixth day they shall prepare that which they bring in; and it shall be twice as much as they gather daily.

No, I don't cook my food on the Christ's Sabbath. I prepare food for this day on the day before. You wouldn't understand being puffed up by your fleshy mind. If you understood about the 10 virgins, you would understand what it means to "prepare" for the Sabbath Rest of God.

So, is the seventh day for you, where you don't cook your food, starting from sundown of Friday until sundown of Saturday? 

Quote from: GB
Let me ask you a question now. "Would you go to a strip club in order to honor "Thou shall not commit Adultery"?

Again; "Today, if you hear His Voice" say " Thou shalt not kill".

Would you run out and Kill?

Again "Today, if you hear His Voice" say "Thou shalt not steal"

Would you run out and shoplift?

No.

Quote from: GB
I'm going out on a limb here and assume that you agree with these Judgments of God, and that after you hear them, you didn't despise them by openly transgressing them.

But what about the Commandment God gave to prove whether or not men would walk in His Judgments?

8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: 10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:

So "today, if you hear HIS Voice" say these things, why do you run out and reject this Judgment of God? Didn't the Same God who created "Thou shall not kill", also command you to "Keep the 7th Day Holy"?

I love the Lord. And the Holy Spirit who dwells in me tells me the good that I ought to do each day. And I, with the help of the Holy Spirit who gives me strength, see to it that I should be walking according to the Spirit. There isn't a day that I don't intend to honor God. I don't honor any day nor anything for that matter. It is God whom I honor. 

I heard His voice a long time ago. And I did not resist Him then and so, like Abraham, I believed in Him and Jesus Christ. I was not circumcised into the religion of the Jews and have not been under the Law of Moses. But I am now in covenant with God, under the new covenant, and my mediator is Jesus Christ. God had written His laws in my mind and heart, even the Holy Spirit dwelling in me. Such divine laws as that of love, faith, hope, towards God and love towards neighbor. And the truth of the matter, God said "I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest." Me and all my brethren in Christ knows God, and we need not teach each one and say "know the Lord". We all have the divine laws of God, written in our minds and hearts no less by God, through the Holy Spirit.

So, in that respect, perhaps we differ?

My God is Spirit and so I worship Him in spirit. If you know what "in spirit" implies, you will understand that it has nothing whatsoever to do with the material creation of God, nor of the elements or rudiments of the world, nor after any carnal commandment.

Quote from: GB
Who convinced you that you could judge one Commandment of God as worthy of your honor and respect, and another Commandment of God  unworthy of your honor and respect? Doesn't that make you a "Judge" of God's Word?

Not convinced as you say there GB. In fact, it never once cross my mind that I could judge any commandment of God. I just take them as they are presented by scriptures. And I am not a judge of any and anyone for that matter. Nor does it make me a judge of God's word in submitting to the truth of scriptures. How about you? Does it make you a judge of God's words if you think your interpretation is right?

Quote from: GB
Isn't you promoting this "Partiality in God's Law" the same thing the Levites did?

Mal. 2:7 For the priest's lips should keep knowledge, and they should seek the law at his mouth: for he is the messenger of the LORD of hosts.

8 But ye are departed out of the way; ye have caused many to stumble at the law; ye have corrupted the covenant of Levi, saith the LORD of hosts.

9 Therefore have I also made you contemptible and base before all the people, according as ye have not kept my ways, but have been partial in the law.

No GB. I promote nothing (not even the ten commandments, not even the matter of the Sabbath which you are so into as if your salvation depends on it), but Jesus Christ.

Quote from: GB
Isn't this the exact same thing Jesus reject the Mainstream Preachers of HIS Time for?

Matt. 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

No GB. They were rejected because of unbelief.

Quote from: GB
I do not work for money on the Christ's Sabbath. My business is closed, and those dozen or so people who work for me go home to their families.

I am sharing this with you because you asked. For me it is simply my reasonable service. I am purchased by this Creator who created HIS Sabbath for man. Why would I call this Creator of HIS Holy Sabbath "Lord, Lord, and then reject HIS judgments and follow my own, or yours, or the Popes instead? Especially when I have been warned so many times about religious men who would deceive me into disobedience as was Eve.

Who are we to judge someone else's servant? Is any among the brethren in Christ, servant to any one among the brethren, that one should judge what the other is doing? To their own master, servants stand or fall. And they will stand, for the Lord is able to make them stand.

So, I am not telling you nor had told you that you should not do what it is you say you do there GB. If you are fully persuaded in your own mind and do it for the Lord, then by all means, do as you must. And I am not telling anyone either, to do or not do as you do. One esteemeth one day above another, another esteemeth every day alike. I was taught by the Holy Spirit to let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind, and that he that in these things serveth Christ is acceptable to God.
Title: Re: The Jewish Sabbath .......
Post by: GB on Sat Feb 15, 2020 - 13:17:22
 author=Michael2012 link=topic=105259.msg1055156321#msg1055156321 date=1581770344]


Quote
No GB. They were rejected because of unbelief.

Yes, God said "and showing Mercy to thousands who love Me and Keep My Commandments", but they didn't believe God.

God said "Remember the Sabbath to keep it Holy", but they didn't believe God. And God said not to show Partiality in His Laws, but they didn't believe God.

So because of their unbelief, God never gave them to Jesus.

I am reminded of these inspired Word's of Paul.

1 Cor. 10:4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

5 But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness.

6 Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted. (judging God's Sabbaths as unworthy of honor is one such lust)

11 Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.

12 Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.

God gave me these Word's as well, and I believe them.


Quote
Who are we to judge someone else's servant? Is any among the brethren in Christ, servant to any one among the brethren, that one should judge what the other is doing? To their own master, servants stand or fall. And they will stand, for the Lord is able to make them stand.

If you are "weak in the faith", then what are you doing on this forum correcting and judging others as wrong?

Quote
So, I am not telling you nor had told you that you should not do what it is you say you do there GB. If you are fully persuaded in your own mind and do it for the Lord, then by all means, do as you must. And I am not telling anyone either, to do or not do as you do. One esteemeth one day above another, another esteemeth every day alike. I was taught by the Holy Spirit to let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind, and that he that in these things serveth Christ is acceptable to God.

I am only pointing out what the Scriptures say regarding God's Judgments. If you don't believe the Christ's Sabbath is Holy, then so be it.

It is very clear that God esteems some days above others. So much so that He created a Commandment to magnifying it.  I just want to make sure I show these scriptures that "many" are not taught about in their religion, like the Covenant God made with Levi on Israel's behalf, much the same way Jesus showed the Word's of God that the Mainstream Preachers of HIS time omitted from their religion. You know, like God's Sabbath was made for man.

3 For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?

4 God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.

I think there is nothing more to say.


Title: Re: The Jewish Sabbath .......
Post by: Amo on Sat Feb 15, 2020 - 15:35:07
That is your opinion and is what you present here. But there never was such an issue in the garden of Eden regarding that.

Yes, that was the issue, as the scriptures plainly state and point out.

Gen 3:17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life; 18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field; 19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

Disobedience to God in the Garden, was disobedience to Christ who is God and created and sustains this world.

Joh 1:1  In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.....................................
Joh 1:14  And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: 16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: 17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

God said one thing, Satan claimed another, humanity chose whom they would believe and obey. They chose to believe and obey the liar, the curse and death followed. Christ came to reverse this, and bring all back into willing submission to the Father according to God's eternal purpose.

Eph 3:9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ: 10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God, 11 According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:

1Co 15:22  For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. 24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. 28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.





Title: Re: The Jewish Sabbath .......
Post by: Amo on Sat Feb 15, 2020 - 15:46:55
Exodus 20:8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.

9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:

10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:

11 For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.


To those who claim to observe and keep this commandment, and some of which perhaps even say that one will not be saved if he does not. May I ask these simple questions.

On the seventh day, do you do no work, you, nor your son, nor your daughter, your manservant, nor your maidservant, nor your cattle, nor your horse, nor your employees? Yes or no?

Do you not light a fire in any of your dwellings on the seventh day? Yes or no?

Do you take the seventh day as the period from sixth-day sundown to seventh-day sundown? Yes or no? If no, what then?

Do you work in all of the six days, that is, including Sunday, not a day idle?

The fourth commandment says nothing about lighting fires or not, nor does it command anyone to make sure they work all the other six days. You got the time frame correct. So what is your point? Are you suggesting that anyone who can't perfectly do as God commands, should just go all out evil? Just forget about God's will because you can't perfectly keep it, is that it? Expound please.
Title: Re: The Jewish Sabbath .......
Post by: Michael2012 on Sun Feb 16, 2020 - 01:46:34
The fourth commandment says nothing about lighting fires or not, nor does it command anyone to make sure they work all the other six days. You got the time frame correct.

On lighting and six days work.

Exodus 35:2 Six days shall work be done, but on the seventh day there shall be to you an holy day, a sabbath of rest to the Lord: whosoever doeth work therein shall be put to death. 3 Ye shall kindle no fire throughout your habitations upon the sabbath day.

Exodus 20:9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:

So, are you suggesting that, in your belief, that whether be it one, or two, or three, or four, or five days that you work and not six, does not matter? Or perhaps, whether you work or not during the six days, it does not matter? And that because for you, the fourth commandment does not command anyone to make sure one work all the other six days? That's interesting.

On time frame, you then live like the Jews, right? At least in that respect. If in the place where you live, such is what the government take as a day, then you are submitting to those who were put in authority there by God. And that's no problem. But if not, then isn't that non-submission? Does not scriptures tell the Christians, "Submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake: whether it be to the king, as supreme; Or unto governors, as unto them that are sent by him for the punishment of evildoers"?

Quote from: Amo
So what is your point?

My point is you are a Christian, and I'd like to believe that. Now, there is neither Jew nor Gentile, with respect to Christians, right? Right. Paul at one time rebuked Peter and so too those of the circumcision who were with him and did as did Peter, saying to them "If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews?". The issue raised by Paul was not that they should be living after the manner of Gentiles or vise versa. But that, they should not compel the Gentiles to live as do the Jews. And that goes the other way as well. On what grounds or reason did Paul say that? He said "a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified."

Quote from: Amo
Are you suggesting that anyone who can't perfectly do as God commands, should just go all out evil? Just forget about God's will because you can't perfectly keep it, is that it? Expound please.

I am not at all suggesting any such wickedness Amo. To the contrary, Christians should by all means do good, walking according to the Spirit who dwells in them, in the divine laws/principles that God had written in their individual minds and hearts ~ love, faith, hope towards God and Christ, and love towards neighbor.

Yes, Christians aren't perfect yet in this concern, but that isn't reason that we intentionally keep on sinning Amo. The fact that we aren't yet perfect, it is the very reason that Christians should cultivate instead, love, faith, hope that is in their hearts and mind, that they grow to maturity unto perfection in these very things, as God transforms and conforms them in the image of the Son, Jesus Christ, through the Holy Spirit.

With regards the old covenant law which God gave to the children of Israel through Moses, which includes that concerning of the seventh day Sabbath, I was taught by  the Holy Spirit who dwells in me, that such were made obsolete by the making of the new covenant through Jesus Christ. Not that they were unholy, unjust, and unrighteous. But that they simply were done away with. For scriptures elsewhere said that they are but shadows of realities, and so are meant to be temporary and which vanishes away. They are but shadows of realities, that is, Christ.

You got it right Amo, when you said in the other thread, of the laws, statutes, and ordinances given to Moses by God to give to Israel as were of the rudiments of traditions of this world, employed in teaching and instruction concerning that which was not of this world. All such laws, statutes, and ordinances were meant, to lead the children of Israel, first, to God and Christ, and so then too, the rest of the families of the world. And that sure does not make them in any way unholy, unjust, unrighteous, and not good, as others might think. Though you don't include the ten commandments in that sense. Well, if that's your conviction, let it be with you then. But what cannot be denied concerning the laws, statutes, and ordinances given to Moses by God to give to Israel, that each one of them which involves the elemental things of the world, such as concerning and involving days, months, years, seasons, food, drink, body, things visible, material things, and anything carnal and pertaining to that, are temporal and in time will vanish away. You can just see for yourself what in the law, (in this thread consider looking at the Sabbath at least) isn't of the spirit, that is, carnal and elemental. And the Christian should not be of really much concern and after what isn't of the spirit. But instead, he should be of really much concern and after what is of the spirit. For scriptures clearly say in Romans 8:5-7 "For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be."

Amo, God is Spirit and so I worship Him in spirit. I believe you do too. If one knows what "in spirit" implies, he will understand that it has nothing whatsoever to do with the elements or rudiments of the world, nor is it after any carnal commandment.

GB, I hope you are reading this post.
Title: Re: The Jewish Sabbath .......
Post by: Michael2012 on Sun Feb 16, 2020 - 04:15:24
Quote from: Michael2012 on Mon Feb 10, 2020 - 10:19:54
That is your opinion and is what you present here. But there never was such an issue in the garden of Eden regarding that.
Yes, that was the issue, as the scriptures plainly state and point out.

Gen 3:17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life; 18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field; 19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

Disobedience to God in the Garden, was disobedience to Christ who is God and created and sustains this world.

Joh 1:1  In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.....................................
Joh 1:14  And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: 16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: 17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

While scriptures testifies and declares, there is but one true God, it presents the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, as distinct persons of God. Taking this away is obviously not the intent of scriptures, that such distinctions were presented. To the contrary, scriptures wants us to acknowledge and honor that. 

So, I would not say that the issue in the Garden of Eden was submitting to God in Christ Jesus or not. The matter in the garden of Eden is what scriptures presents it, that is, between Adam and God.

Quote from: Amo
God said one thing, Satan claimed another, humanity chose whom they would believe and obey. They chose to believe and obey the liar, the curse and death followed. Christ came to reverse this, and bring all back into willing submission to the Father according to God's eternal purpose.

Eph 3:9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ: 10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God, 11 According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:

1Co 15:22  For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. 24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. 28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

What happened in the garden of Eden is this. Adam and Eve have no knowledge of good and evil. They know not what lie is nor any evil for that matter. And as you put it, God said one thing, Satan claimed another. God said they would die when they eat of the forbidden fruit, while Satan said they will not. But besides that, the serpent tempted her, telling that her eyes shall be opened and she shall be as gods, knowing good and evil. And Eve, innocent as she was then, was deceived by the serpent. What made her eat of the fruit? She saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, and even gave also unto her husband, Adam, who innocent as he too was, heeded his wife, did eat.

If one looks at it intently, we see the weakness of the flesh, with the lust and the desire that it produces, is that which leads them to the disregard of God's words and will for them, which made them have a lack of respect, fear, and faith in God, and trusting the serpent instead, and following the will of the flesh.

You said "They chose to believe and obey the liar, .." I don't think that is a quite fair statement. For Eve and Adam knew not the serpent nor Satan, and that he was a liar and works against God. But I have to point out that it sure does not take away the fact that they chose and believe the serpent's words over God's, to the fulfillment of their will and satisfaction of their flesh. 

And the result, because of Adam's offense, sin entered into the world, and death by sin. And by the offence of Adam, judgment came upon all men to condemnation. It is to be noted that it was Adam's offense, not Eve's that was the issue. There is certainly significance to that, in that, the seed of mankind is Adam and not Eve. For it is Adam who was the first of his kind (mankind), the head and father therefore of mankind, who are therefore fallen with Adam, as they became to be, because of Adam's disobedience. 

Such calls for salvation, for which Christ came to bring about.
Title: Re: The Jewish Sabbath .......
Post by: Michael2012 on Sun Feb 16, 2020 - 05:15:16
No GB. They were rejected because of unbelief.

Yes, God said "and showing Mercy to thousands who love Me and Keep My Commandments", but they didn't believe God.

God said "Remember the Sabbath to keep it Holy", but they didn't believe God. And God said not to show Partiality in His Laws, but they didn't believe God.

So because of their unbelief, God never gave them to Jesus.

I am reminded of these inspired Word's of Paul.

1 Cor. 10:4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

5 But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness.

6 Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted. (judging God's Sabbaths as unworthy of honor is one such lust)

11 Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.

12 Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.

God gave me these Word's as well, and I believe them.

That only further strengthens that the bottom line really is about the spiritual side of all that, that is, the Levites, Pharisees, or any man for that matter, will be cast out/rejected because of unbelief. And you know what that implies, what it makes of work and what it makes of faith, I would like to think so.

Quote from: GB
Quote from: Michael
Who are we to judge someone else's servant? Is any among the brethren in Christ, servant to any one among the brethren, that one should judge what the other is doing? To their own master, servants stand or fall. And they will stand, for the Lord is able to make them stand.
If you are "weak in the faith", then what are you doing on this forum correcting and judging others as wrong?

Your words goes to you GB. For the weak in faith is one who seems to have much concern with carnal things, such as those regarding days, and regulations that involves the elemental things of the world. He can't seem to let go of such things and rather occupy himself and continue with the things of the spirit. If I'm not mistaken, I don't remember reading a post from you that speaks about the Spirit. What I do remember is you, always speaking your concerns about what you think a man should do which involves carnal things, such as to rest and not work, to honor a certain day or not in some regulated manner, to cook or not on Saturday, to eat or not eat certain foods, etc. But for the not weak in faith, he is not concerned about such things, but of the things of the Spirit. Do you want to know the things of the Spirit?   

Quote from: GB
Quote from: Michael
So, I am not telling you nor had told you that you should not do what it is you say you do there GB. If you are fully persuaded in your own mind and do it for the Lord, then by all means, do as you must. And I am not telling anyone either, to do or not do as you do. One esteemeth one day above another, another esteemeth every day alike. I was taught by the Holy Spirit to let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind, and that he that in these things serveth Christ is acceptable to God.
I am only pointing out what the Scriptures say regarding God's Judgments. If you don't believe the Christ's Sabbath is Holy, then so be it.

Oh I do believe that God's judgments are good, holy, just and righteous GB. To insist that I don't is on you. And I do believe that not only the sabbath day is holy and good, but each day that the Lord has made.

Quote from: GB
It is very clear that God esteems some days above others. So much so that He created a Commandment to magnifying it.  I just want to make sure I show these scriptures that "many" are not taught about in their religion, like the Covenant God made with Levi on Israel's behalf, much the same way Jesus showed the Word's of God that the Mainstream Preachers of HIS time omitted from their religion. You know, like God's Sabbath was made for man.

3 For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?

4 God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.

I think there is nothing more to say.

You showing scriptures is most welcome and is good. But the moment that you show your opinions, then that is a totally different matter, more so if others think that your opinion or your interpretation of scriptures, is erroneous, and not the truth. For quite certainly, any falsehood posted in this forum would attract and calls for a deserving refutation.

You speak of "God's Sabbath was made for man". Since you always say that, could you tell us what that means, that the Sabbath was made for man? I would assume you know what that means, or at least have it mean something that you believe it means.
Title: Re: The Jewish Sabbath .......
Post by: Michael2012 on Sat Feb 22, 2020 - 06:48:05
The Sabbath was part of the Law that God gave the children of Israel through Moses.

Speaking of the Law that God gave the children of Israel through Moses (or simply the Law), here are some scriptures that refers to it:

Matthew 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

Matthew 22:36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?

Luke 2:22 And when the days of her purification according to the law of Moses were accomplished, they brought him to Jerusalem, to present him to the Lord; 23 (As it is written in the law of the Lord, Every male that openeth the womb shall be called holy to the Lord;) 24 And to offer a sacrifice according to that which is said in the law of the Lord, A pair of turtledoves, or two young pigeons.

Luke 10:26 He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou?

John 7:19 Did not Moses give you the law, and yet none of you keepeth the law? Why go ye about to kill me?

Romans 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

Romans 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

Romans 9:4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;

Galatians 3:12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.

Galatians 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

Hebrews 7:11 If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?Hebrews 7:12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.

Hebrews 9:19 For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and of goats, with water, and scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book, and all the people,

Hebrews 10:1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.

James 2:11 For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.


Each of the cited passages, among others, tells us what the Law is. As it is , the Law is not only the Levitical priesthood, as GB and others who agrees with him strongly believes. They preach that the Law (less of the Levitical priesthood and everything associated with said priestly office that were done away with by the priesthood of Christ according to the Order of Melchisedec), is binding upon the Christian and should be observed by the same, in the manner as it was intended to be kept by the children of Israel. And as to what laws, they seem to can not really say specifically what they are. That only points to the obvious error of their doctrine. 

The obvious and clear problem with their doctrine is that scriptures says that the Christian is not under the Law, but is under grace.

Romans 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

That is plain and clear as day!

Looking intently at Romans 6:14, not only is it clear that the Christian is not under the Law but under grace, but also that sin shall have no dominion over him because of that. So, those who hold such doctrine, that the Law (less of the Levitical priesthood and everything associated with said priestly office) is binding upon them, who ought to observe the same, in the manner as it was intended to be kept by the children of Israel, who have without question subjected themselves under the Law and who have in fact fallen from grace, have sin still have dominion over them.

Also, they failed to acknowledge, if not fail to understand, the truth that is spelled out in the following scriptures concerning the Law:

Galatians 3:11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith. 12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.

no man is justified by the law in the sight of God

WHY? BECAUSE:

The just shall live by faith

And the law is not of faith
Title: Re: The Jewish Sabbath .......
Post by: GB on Sat Feb 22, 2020 - 08:35:21
The Sabbath was part of the Law that God gave the children of Israel through Moses.

Speaking of the Law that God gave the children of Israel through Moses (or simply the Law), here are some scriptures that refers to it:

Matthew 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

Matthew 22:36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?

Luke 2:22 And when the days of her purification according to the law of Moses were accomplished, they brought him to Jerusalem, to present him to the Lord; 23 (As it is written in the law of the Lord, Every male that openeth the womb shall be called holy to the Lord;) 24 And to offer a sacrifice according to that which is said in the law of the Lord, A pair of turtledoves, or two young pigeons.

Luke 10:26 He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou?

John 7:19 Did not Moses give you the law, and yet none of you keepeth the law? Why go ye about to kill me?

Romans 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

Romans 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

Romans 9:4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;

Galatians 3:12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.

Galatians 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

Hebrews 7:11 If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?Hebrews 7:12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.

Hebrews 9:19 For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and of goats, with water, and scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book, and all the people,

Hebrews 10:1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.

James 2:11 For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.


Each of the cited passages, among others, tells us what the Law is. As it is , the Law is not only the Levitical priesthood, as GB and others who agrees with him strongly believes. They preach that the Law (less of the Levitical priesthood and everything associated with said priestly office that were done away with by the priesthood of Christ according to the Order of Melchisedec), is binding upon the Christian and should be observed by the same, in the manner as it was intended to be kept by the children of Israel. And as to what laws, they seem to can not really say specifically what they are. That only points to the obvious error of their doctrine. 

The obvious and clear problem with their doctrine is that scriptures says that the Christian is not under the Law, but is under grace.

Romans 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

That is plain and clear as day!

Looking intently at Romans 6:14, not only is it clear that the Christian is not under the Law but under grace, but also that sin shall have no dominion over him because of that. So, those who hold such doctrine, that the Law (less of the Levitical priesthood and everything associated with said priestly office) is binding upon them, who ought to observe the same, in the manner as it was intended to be kept by the children of Israel, who have without question subjected themselves under the Law and who have in fact fallen from grace, have sin still have dominion over them.

Also, they failed to acknowledge, if not fail to understand, the truth that is spelled out in the following scriptures concerning the Law:

Galatians 3:11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith. 12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.

no man is justified by the law in the sight of God

WHY? BECAUSE:

The just shall live by faith

And the law is not of faith

Rom. 3:27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.


Lev. 4:32 And if he bring a lamb for a sin offering, he shall bring it a female without blemish.

33 And he shall lay his hand upon the head of the sin offering, and slay it for a sin offering in the place where they kill the burnt offering.

34 And the priest shall take of the blood of the sin offering with his finger, and put it upon the horns of the altar of burnt offering, and shall pour out all the blood thereof at the bottom of the altar:

35 And he shall take away all the fat thereof, as the fat of the lamb is taken away from the sacrifice of the peace offerings; and the priest shall burn them upon the altar, according to the offerings made by fire unto the LORD: and the priest shall make an atonement for his sin that he hath committed, and it shall be forgiven him.

Lev. 6:24 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,

25 Speak unto Aaron and to his sons, (Levites) saying, This is the law of the sin offering: In the place where the burnt offering is killed shall the sin offering be killed before the LORD: it is most holy.

Mal. 2:7 For the priest's lips should keep knowledge, and they should seek the law at his mouth: for he is the messenger of the LORD of hosts.

8 But ye are departed out of the way; ye have caused many to stumble at the law; ye have corrupted the covenant of Levi, saith the LORD of hosts.


Jer. 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:

33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

Rom. 3:3 For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?

4 God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.


Rom. 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.






Title: Re: The Jewish Sabbath .......
Post by: Michael2012 on Sat Feb 22, 2020 - 11:15:45
The Sabbath was part of the Law that God gave the children of Israel through Moses.

Speaking of the Law that God gave the children of Israel through Moses (or simply the Law), here are some scriptures that refers to it:

Matthew 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

Matthew 22:36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?

Luke 2:22 And when the days of her purification according to the law of Moses were accomplished, they brought him to Jerusalem, to present him to the Lord; 23 (As it is written in the law of the Lord, Every male that openeth the womb shall be called holy to the Lord;) 24 And to offer a sacrifice according to that which is said in the law of the Lord, A pair of turtledoves, or two young pigeons.

Luke 10:26 He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou?

John 7:19 Did not Moses give you the law, and yet none of you keepeth the law? Why go ye about to kill me?

Romans 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

Romans 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

Romans 9:4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;

Galatians 3:12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.

Galatians 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

Hebrews 7:11 If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?Hebrews 7:12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.

Hebrews 9:19 For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and of goats, with water, and scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book, and all the people,

Hebrews 10:1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.

James 2:11 For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.


Each of the cited passages, among others, tells us what the Law is. As it is , the Law is not only the Levitical priesthood, as GB and others who agrees with him strongly believes. They preach that the Law (less of the Levitical priesthood and everything associated with said priestly office that were done away with by the priesthood of Christ according to the Order of Melchisedec), is binding upon the Christian and should be observed by the same, in the manner as it was intended to be kept by the children of Israel. And as to what laws, they seem to can not really say specifically what they are. That only points to the obvious error of their doctrine. 

The obvious and clear problem with their doctrine is that scriptures says that the Christian is not under the Law, but is under grace.

Romans 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

That is plain and clear as day!

Looking intently at Romans 6:14, not only is it clear that the Christian is not under the Law but under grace, but also that sin shall have no dominion over him because of that. So, those who hold such doctrine, that the Law (less of the Levitical priesthood and everything associated with said priestly office) is binding upon them, who ought to observe the same, in the manner as it was intended to be kept by the children of Israel, who have without question subjected themselves under the Law and who have in fact fallen from grace, have sin still have dominion over them.

Also, they failed to acknowledge, if not fail to understand, the truth that is spelled out in the following scriptures concerning the Law:

Galatians 3:11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith. 12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.

no man is justified by the law in the sight of God

WHY? BECAUSE:

The just shall live by faith

And the law is not of faith
Rom. 3:27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.

So, how does that refute what I posted in the quotebox? It does not. Just posting scriptures does not tell us your mind GB. As it is, you have no refutation of what I said in the quotebox.

And quoting Rom. 3:27 only gives me the impression that you don't also understand what it says, for if you do, you will see it as having nothing to do with what I posted. Also I spoke nothing about boasting nor about the laws/principles of work or of faith. Perhaps you want to know about the laws/principles of work or of faith?

Quote from: GB
Lev. 4:32 And if he bring a lamb for a sin offering, he shall bring it a female without blemish.

33 And he shall lay his hand upon the head of the sin offering, and slay it for a sin offering in the place where they kill the burnt offering.

34 And the priest shall take of the blood of the sin offering with his finger, and put it upon the horns of the altar of burnt offering, and shall pour out all the blood thereof at the bottom of the altar:

35 And he shall take away all the fat thereof, as the fat of the lamb is taken away from the sacrifice of the peace offerings; and the priest shall burn them upon the altar, according to the offerings made by fire unto the LORD: and the priest shall make an atonement for his sin that he hath committed, and it shall be forgiven him.

Lev. 6:24 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,

25 Speak unto Aaron and to his sons, (Levites) saying, This is the law of the sin offering: In the place where the burnt offering is killed shall the sin offering be killed before the LORD: it is most holy.

Mal. 2:7 For the priest's lips should keep knowledge, and they should seek the law at his mouth: for he is the messenger of the LORD of hosts.

8 But ye are departed out of the way; ye have caused many to stumble at the law; ye have corrupted the covenant of Levi, saith the LORD of hosts.


Jer. 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:

33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

Rom. 3:3 For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?

4 God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.


Rom. 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

So, what is that all about those passages? Just posting scriptures does not tell us your mind GB. 

Well, it seems that's what happens when there is no refutation to give.
Title: Re: The Jewish Sabbath .......
Post by: GB on Sat Feb 22, 2020 - 14:10:51
Rom. 3:27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.

So, how does that refute what I posted in the quotebox? It does not. Just posting scriptures does not tell us your mind GB. As it is, you have no refutation of what I said in the quotebox.

If I post scriptures showing a distinct separation between "Law of Works" and "Law of Faith" you can not accept them.

If I give commentary, you reject everything I say as my opinion.

 I don't need to define the "Deeds" of the Law for justification, God's Word already did.

I am reminded of a tactic used by the Mainstream Preachers of Christ's time that you employ.

Luke 7:33 For John the Baptist came neither eating bread nor drinking wine; and ye say, He hath a devil.

34 The Son of man is come eating and drinking; and ye say, Behold a gluttonous man, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners!

35 But wisdom is justified of all her children.

This is what happens when the religion itself becomes the god.





Title: Re: The Jewish Sabbath .......
Post by: Amo on Sat Feb 22, 2020 - 14:38:53
On lighting and six days work.

Exodus 35:2 Six days shall work be done, but on the seventh day there shall be to you an holy day, a sabbath of rest to the Lord: whosoever doeth work therein shall be put to death. 3 Ye shall kindle no fire throughout your habitations upon the sabbath day.

Exodus 20:9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:

So, are you suggesting that, in your belief, that whether be it one, or two, or three, or four, or five days that you work and not six, does not matter? Or perhaps, whether you work or not during the six days, it does not matter? And that because for you, the fourth commandment does not command anyone to make sure one work all the other six days? That's interesting.

On time frame, you then live like the Jews, right? At least in that respect. If in the place where you live, such is what the government take as a day, then you are submitting to those who were put in authority there by God. And that's no problem. But if not, then isn't that non-submission? Does not scriptures tell the Christians, "Submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake: whether it be to the king, as supreme; Or unto governors, as unto them that are sent by him for the punishment of evildoers"?

My point is you are a Christian, and I'd like to believe that. Now, there is neither Jew nor Gentile, with respect to Christians, right? Right. Paul at one time rebuked Peter and so too those of the circumcision who were with him and did as did Peter, saying to them "If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews?". The issue raised by Paul was not that they should be living after the manner of Gentiles or vise versa. But that, they should not compel the Gentiles to live as do the Jews. And that goes the other way as well. On what grounds or reason did Paul say that? He said "a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified."

I am not at all suggesting any such wickedness Amo. To the contrary, Christians should by all means do good, walking according to the Spirit who dwells in them, in the divine laws/principles that God had written in their individual minds and hearts ~ love, faith, hope towards God and Christ, and love towards neighbor.

Yes, Christians aren't perfect yet in this concern, but that isn't reason that we intentionally keep on sinning Amo. The fact that we aren't yet perfect, it is the very reason that Christians should cultivate instead, love, faith, hope that is in their hearts and mind, that they grow to maturity unto perfection in these very things, as God transforms and conforms them in the image of the Son, Jesus Christ, through the Holy Spirit.

With regards the old covenant law which God gave to the children of Israel through Moses, which includes that concerning of the seventh day Sabbath, I was taught by  the Holy Spirit who dwells in me, that such were made obsolete by the making of the new covenant through Jesus Christ. Not that they were unholy, unjust, and unrighteous. But that they simply were done away with. For scriptures elsewhere said that they are but shadows of realities, and so are meant to be temporary and which vanishes away. They are but shadows of realities, that is, Christ.

You got it right Amo, when you said in the other thread, of the laws, statutes, and ordinances given to Moses by God to give to Israel as were of the rudiments of traditions of this world, employed in teaching and instruction concerning that which was not of this world. All such laws, statutes, and ordinances were meant, to lead the children of Israel, first, to God and Christ, and so then too, the rest of the families of the world. And that sure does not make them in any way unholy, unjust, unrighteous, and not good, as others might think. Though you don't include the ten commandments in that sense. Well, if that's your conviction, let it be with you then. But what cannot be denied concerning the laws, statutes, and ordinances given to Moses by God to give to Israel, that each one of them which involves the elemental things of the world, such as concerning and involving days, months, years, seasons, food, drink, body, things visible, material things, and anything carnal and pertaining to that, are temporal and in time will vanish away. You can just see for yourself what in the law, (in this thread consider looking at the Sabbath at least) isn't of the spirit, that is, carnal and elemental. And the Christian should not be of really much concern and after what isn't of the spirit. But instead, he should be of really much concern and after what is of the spirit. For scriptures clearly say in Romans 8:5-7 "For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be."

Amo, God is Spirit and so I worship Him in spirit. I believe you do too. If one knows what "in spirit" implies, he will understand that it has nothing whatsoever to do with the elements or rudiments of the world, nor is it after any carnal commandment.

GB, I hope you are reading this post.

Quite a bit of gobbledegook. Exo 35:2 is not part of the ten commandments though it refers to them. Nor is it the fourth commandment. There is nothing in the fourth commandment about kindling a fire or not. What God expected of Israel on the sabbath in the wilderness while He provided a cloud over them during the day to protect them from the heat of the sun, and a pillar of fire over them by night to protect them from the cold, and manna every day to feed them, has nothing to do with what He would expect when all of that disappeared. Special instructions for special circumstance.

Now here you are again suggesting that commandments spoken directly from the mouth of God and written with His own finger, can be considered rudiments of this world and or of a carnal nature. This is chosen ignorance on your part. Very dangerous ignorance for that matter. You choose to ignore the fact that God did not give the ten commandments to humanity through Moses, but spoke and wrote them Himself. This is your choice. Then you continue to lie and say that they were given to us through Moses. This is your choice. Then you refer to them as rudiments of this world and of a carnal nature. This is your choice. Worse yet, you do this in reference specifically to the one commandment referring to a blessed and sanctified day created by God 2000 years before there ever was Jew, and prophesied to be kept in the new heaven and new earth. A day God blessed and sanctified before there ever was sin, and therefore any rudiments of this present world or anything even like carnality.
Which day is said in scripture to be observed in the new heaven and new earth where there will be no carnality or even remnants of the rudiments of this present fallen world. This is your choice. So be it.

I'll not even address your nonsense about work or not on days other than the sabbath.

I will leave you with the words of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. 19  Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Believe, teach, and do as you wish. The above words are as applicable to yourself as all the rest of us.


Title: Re: The Jewish Sabbath .......
Post by: Michael2012 on Sat Feb 22, 2020 - 14:52:41
If I post scriptures showing a distinct separation between "Law of Works" and "Law of Faith" you can not accept them.

Oh sure you can, but that is not simply the issue, GB. That's why, doing so would not serve you anything to refute what I posted in Reply #96.

Quote from: GB
If I give commentary, you reject everything I say as my opinion.

 I don't need to define the "Deeds" of the Law for justification, God's Word already did.

If you do well will you not be accepted? If your opinion is in keeping with scriptures will it not be accepted?

Quote from: GB
I am reminded of a tactic used by the Mainstream Preachers of Christ's time that you employ.

Luke 7:33 For John the Baptist came neither eating bread nor drinking wine; and ye say, He hath a devil.

34 The Son of man is come eating and drinking; and ye say, Behold a gluttonous man, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners!

35 But wisdom is justified of all her children.

This is what happens when the religion itself becomes the god.

You may be reminded of so many things GB, but that does not refute my post in Reply #96.

On the other hand I am reminded of your Ad hominem tactic every time you have no refutation to give.
Title: Re: The Jewish Sabbath .......
Post by: Michael2012 on Sat Feb 22, 2020 - 16:17:31
Quite a bit of gobbledegook. Exo 35:2 is not part of the ten commandments though it refers to them. Nor is it the fourth commandment. There is nothing in the fourth commandment about kindling a fire or not. What God expected of Israel on the sabbath in the wilderness while He provided a cloud over them during the day to protect them from the heat of the sun, and a pillar of fire over them by night to protect them from the cold, and manna every day to feed them, has nothing to do with what He would expect when all of that disappeared. Special instructions for special circumstance.

Perhaps gobbledegook to you Amo. But it can't be denied what the fourth commandment says "Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it." (Exo. 20:8-11). This is not at all different from what is said in Exodus 35:2. It concerns the seventh day Sabbath.

So, if you are suggesting that the Sabbath is no longer observed and kept like so, how then do you say it should be observed and kept? Who sets the regulations? Perhaps you can share to us how you keep it.

Quote from: Amo
Now here you are again suggesting that commandments spoken directly from the mouth of God and written with His own finger, can be considered rudiments of this world and or of a carnal nature. This is chosen ignorance on your part. Very dangerous ignorance for that matter. You choose to ignore the fact that God did not give the ten commandments to humanity through Moses, but spoke and wrote them Himself. This is your choice. Then you continue to lie and say that they were given to us through Moses. This is your choice. Then you refer to them as rudiments of this world and of a carnal nature. This is your choice. Worse yet, you do this in reference specifically to the one commandment referring to a blessed and sanctified day created by God 2000 years before there ever was Jew, and prophesied to be kept in the new heaven and new earth. A day God blessed and sanctified before there ever was sin, and therefore any rudiments of this present world or anything even like carnality.

Which day is said in scripture to be observed in the new heaven and new earth where there will be no carnality or even remnants of the rudiments of this present fallen world. This is your choice. So be it.

As I said, though the ten commandments were written by God Himself, it does not make the other laws, statutes, ordinances, and judgments not written by Himself as He did with the ten commandments, as being not His. For they equally are His and not Moses'. To say they are not God's is a lie. Would you want me to lie on that? And why do you say I lie if I say the truth about that? Read scriptures and you'll find out that it is God who made the other laws, statutes, ordinances, and judgments, and gave them to the children of Israel, in covenant, through Moses.   

Is this not part of God's ten commandment, saying "Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth."? Does that not involve the elemental things of the world, things visible, material things, carnal and are temporal and in time will vanish away?

Is this not part of God's ten commandment, saying "Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates."? Does this not involve the day, the keeping holy of the day? And how do you do that Amo? Is it not about the day, the body, the doing of no work, work that involves food and drink, things visible, material things, carnal and temporal and in time will vanish away?

Quote from: Amo
I'll not even address your nonsense about work or not on days other than the sabbath.

That's no problem. Of course you won't. Just a reminder then from scriptures:

"Submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake: whether it be to the king, as supreme; Or unto governors, as unto them that are sent by him for the punishment of evildoers"

Quote from: Amo
I will leave you with the words of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. 19  Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Believe, teach, and do as you wish. The above words are as applicable to yourself as all the rest of us.

 ::thumbup::

Jesus Christ indeed had fulfilled the Law, the whole Law. He sinneth not. There is not a single commandment that Jesus had not kept or had violated. 

And let me share you this truth about Jesus Christ:

Romans 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

And this about the Christian:

Romans 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
Title: Re: The Jewish Sabbath .......
Post by: Amo on Sat Feb 29, 2020 - 18:18:35
Perhaps gobbledegook to you Amo. But it can't be denied what the fourth commandment says "Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it." (Exo. 20:8-11). This is not at all different from what is said in Exodus 35:2. It concerns the seventh day Sabbath.

So, if you are suggesting that the Sabbath is no longer observed and kept like so, how then do you say it should be observed and kept? Who sets the regulations? Perhaps you can share to us how you keep it.

As I said, though the ten commandments were written by God Himself, it does not make the other laws, statutes, ordinances, and judgments not written by Himself as He did with the ten commandments, as being not His. For they equally are His and not Moses'. To say they are not God's is a lie. Would you want me to lie on that? And why do you say I lie if I say the truth about that? Read scriptures and you'll find out that it is God who made the other laws, statutes, ordinances, and judgments, and gave them to the children of Israel, in covenant, through Moses.   

Is this not part of God's ten commandment, saying "Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth."? Does that not involve the elemental things of the world, things visible, material things, carnal and are temporal and in time will vanish away?

Is this not part of God's ten commandment, saying "Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates."? Does this not involve the day, the keeping holy of the day? And how do you do that Amo? Is it not about the day, the body, the doing of no work, work that involves food and drink, things visible, material things, carnal and temporal and in time will vanish away?

That's no problem. Of course you won't. Just a reminder then from scriptures:

"Submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake: whether it be to the king, as supreme; Or unto governors, as unto them that are sent by him for the punishment of evildoers"

 ::thumbup::

Jesus Christ indeed had fulfilled the Law, the whole Law. He sinneth not. There is not a single commandment that Jesus had not kept or had violated. 

And let me share you this truth about Jesus Christ:

Romans 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

And this about the Christian:

Romans 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

More gobbledegook. Exodus 35:2 is a brief summary of God's fourth commandment by Moses, and an added rule about not lighting a fire on the Sabbath. Given by Moses on behalf of God to Israel concerning special circumstance, and instruction they had already received. It is not part of the fourth commandment, and was for Israel alone at that particular time and place.

I keep the fourth commandment by seeking to do that which it commands. It is not rocket science.

I know God gave Moses the rules and regs. for Israel to observe, but we are not the literal old covenant nation of Israel. Are you really going to try and turn this around now and pretend you don't know that things have changed in this new covenant? Your entire argument is that they have. We differ upon just what has changed, not whether or not anything has changed. You claim there is no difference between the commandments given by God to Israel personally, and those He gave to them through Moses, I claim there is.

The new covenant brought many and any from outside of Israel into God's fold through Christ Jesus our Lord. Many of the commands given to Israel by God though Moses for old covenant Israel, are not applicable to new covenant non Jewish members in Christ. Many also given to Israel through Moses are no longer applicable to the Israelites either. The NT addresses these changes. The temple and its services are gone, being replaced by Christ and Him crucified and risen from the dead. The Church both individually and corporately are the new covenant temple of God, Jesus Christ being the head of the same. The Apostles also determined the same concerning Gentile converts -

Act 15:7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe. 8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us; 9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. 10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear? 11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they. 12 Then all the multitude kept silence, and gave audience to Barnabas and Paul, declaring what miracles and wonders God had wrought among the Gentiles by them. 13 And after they had held their peace, James answered, saying, Men and brethren, hearken unto me: 14 Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name. 15 And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written, 16 After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up: 17 That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things. 18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world. 19 Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God: 20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood. 21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.

Will your now pretend not to know such things? Nevertheless, the same NT scriptures admonish all to keep the commandments of God many times over and even up to the last book and chapter of the bible. Will you pretend not to know such things. God made a difference between His commandments
and the rest of the laws given specifically to Israel during the old covenant as already specified in our conversation. The NT scriptures do the same thing by allowing for and even specifying many of the changes it does in those same laws specific to Israel, while admonishing all to keep God's commandments at the same time to the end. Will you now pretend not to know this? Shall I quote them all to you? Hear just the ones in the last book of the NT.

Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Rev 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

Rev 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. 13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. 14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. 15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie. 16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.

Why will you determine that all who would keep the commandments of God seek to be saved by the law, when the scriptures identify the saints as those who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ, who also kept the commandments of God and admonished all others to do so as well? Followers of Jesus are not to keep the law in order to be saved, but rather because they are saved in Christ whom they have chosen to follow.

The commandments and statutes given to Israel of the old covenant were given through the man Moses, exactly because they were of the rudiments of this world and meant to pass away. Many of them were meant to pass away before this world passes away in Christ Jesus our Lord. All that was specific to Israel as a nation alone, and all that was concerning the sanctuary and its services which were meant to point them to Christ are passed away in Christ and His new covenant church. Some of which I shared above from the NT, much more in the book of Hebrews and elsewhere concerning the temple and its sacrifices, and other ceremonial, civil, or dietary laws. This you know, as the scriptures themselves point out. So why do you reject that the ten commandments which all are admonished to keep all through the NT as the same as these other laws and statutes when scripture itself makes a distinction? This is your choice.

1 Cor. 7:17 Only, let each one [seek to conduct himself and regulate his affairs so as to] lead the life which the Lord has allotted and imparted to him and to which God has invited and summoned him. This is my order in all the churches. 18 Was anyone at the time of his summons [from God] already circumcised? Let him not seek to remove the evidence of circumcision. Was anyone at the time [God] called him uncircumcised? Let him not be circumcised. 19 For circumcision is nothing and counts for nothing, neither does uncircumcision, but [what counts is] keeping the commandments of God. 20 Everyone should remain after God calls him in the station or condition of life in which the summons found him.(AMPC)

Be careful my friend, to rightly divide the word of God.
Title: Re: The Jewish Sabbath .......
Post by: Michael2012 on Sun Mar 01, 2020 - 02:38:48
More gobbledegook. Exodus 35:2 is a brief summary of God's fourth commandment by Moses, and an added rule about not lighting a fire on the Sabbath. Given by Moses on behalf of God to Israel concerning special circumstance, and instruction they had already received. It is not part of the fourth commandment, and was for Israel alone at that particular time and place.

That is what is gobbledegook Amo, that it is now the Christian who says what law is for the children of Israel only and what is for all men. Is that not too convenient for you to say, to support your belief, when clearly, not only is the commandment written in Exodus 35:3 is for Israel alone, but all the laws, commandments, ordinances, statutes, regulations, rules, and judgments, that God gave in covenant to them, and not to the Egyptians nor any other people on earth, through Moses.

If we ask a non Christian Jew, to whom did God gave the ten commandments and applies, was it to the children of Israel only or to the whole world, what do you honestly think will their answer be? Will they give you their personal opinion or will they point you to their scriptures where it says that God gave it in covenant to the children of Israel, and not to the Egyptians nor any other people on earth, through Moses?   

Quote from: Amo
I keep the fourth commandment by seeking to do that which it commands. It is not rocket science.

So, you apply the 4th commandment of God to the children of Israel upon you and binds yourself to keep it, and is now the one who regulates it according to whatever you think is fitting. Nothing wrong in that, I have to say. But certainly, the Jew would say the opposite.

Yes you say it is not rocket science, yet apparently you won't answer the simple question, how do you keep the fourth commandment? Why not tell? What are you afraid of? Are you afraid that some in your congregation might not agree on how you are keeping it?

Quote from: Amo
I know God gave Moses the rules and regs. for Israel to observe, but we are not the literal old covenant nation of Israel. Are you really going to try and turn this around now and pretend you don't know that things have changed in this new covenant? Your entire argument is that they have. We differ upon just what has changed, not whether or not anything has changed. You claim there is no difference between the commandments given by God to Israel personally, and those He gave to them through Moses, I claim there is.


Yes my argument is that the old covenant, (meaning all that constitutes it including of course the ten commandments, all the laws, commandments, ordinances, statutes, regulations, rules, and judgments, that God gave in covenant to them, the sanctuary and all that pertains to the worship service, Levitical priesthood and all that pertains to the office of the priests,) was made obsolete and was replaced by the new covenant whose mediator is Jesus Christ. You claim that there are parts of the covenant that were not made obsolete and changed, so that, your argument is that only part of the old covenant (Mosaic) was made obsolete and not really the entire old covenant (Mosaic), which is contrary to scriptures. For the covenant in Christ is not a revised covenant of the covenant that God made with the children of Israel in the day when God took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, with Moses as mediator of the, but is a new one in great lot of sense. The old being but the shadow, and the new being the very substance of the shadow. If you know the difference between a shadow and the very substance, then you will understand the great difference between the old and the new covenants, and would come to understand what becomes of the shadow covenant and see how better off the new covenant is. 

My argument is that, the commandments given by God to Israel written by Himself on tablets of stones, and those He gave to them through Moses to write in a book, are equally God's laws, and not Moses'.Your argument on the other hand is that there is difference between the commandments given by God to Israel written by Himself on tablets of stone, and those He gave to them through Moses to write in a book. 

So, your argument there does not refute my argument. And whether there is difference between the commandments given by God to Israel written by Himself on tablets of stone, and those He gave to them through Moses to write in a book, it does not take away the truth that it is to the children of Israel that God gave them in covenant with, and not with the people of Egypt nor with any other peoples of the earth. So much so that, if I'm not mistaken, any one who is not a natural physical descendant of Israel, who wanted to be in covenant with God and be under the Law of the covenant, is required to become circumcised, as though were native born and become a citizen of the nation of Israel and no longer strangers to the commonwealth of Israel.

Quote from: Amo
The new covenant brought many and any from outside of Israel into God's fold through Christ Jesus our Lord. Many of the commands given to Israel by God though Moses for old covenant Israel, are not applicable to new covenant non Jewish members in Christ. Many also given to Israel through Moses are no longer applicable to the Israelites either. The NT addresses these changes. The temple and its services are gone, being replaced by Christ and Him crucified and risen from the dead. The Church both individually and corporately are the new covenant temple of God, Jesus Christ being the head of the same. The Apostles also determined the same concerning Gentile converts -

Act 15:7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe. 8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us; 9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. 10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear? 11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they. 12 Then all the multitude kept silence, and gave audience to Barnabas and Paul, declaring what miracles and wonders God had wrought among the Gentiles by them. 13 And after they had held their peace, James answered, saying, Men and brethren, hearken unto me: 14 Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name. 15 And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written, 16 After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up: 17 That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things. 18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world. 19 Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God: 20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood. 21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.

How is it that you cannot accept the scriptures in Hebrews 8 which says that the covenant that God made with the children of Israel in the day when God took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, with Moses as mediator, had been made obsolete, having been replaced by the new covenant in Christ? It's not only some parts or constituents of the covenant that was replaced and changed Amo. It's the entire covenant, including all that constitutes it including the ten commandments, all the laws, commandments, ordinances, statutes, regulations, rules, and judgments, that God gave in covenant to them, the sanctuary and all that pertains to the worship service, Levitical priesthood and all that pertains to the office of the priests. 

The Acts 15 passage surely does not refute the truth (for truth does not refute truth)  that the covenant that God made with the children of Israel in the day when God took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, with Moses as mediator, had been made obsolete, having been replaced by the new covenant in Christ. In fact you'll find that it reinforces it, if you'll only read Acts 15 carefully. Do not forget to consider what the issue is about at the time, that is, the salvation issue (Acts 15:1,5) concerning the need for the Gentile converts to the Christian faith to be circumcised in the flesh, and the requirement for them to keep the law of Moses.

Read this passage in Acts 15 carefully and thoughtfully: 24 Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:

Can you not see what the apostles and elders with the whole church at Jerusalem are saying there? That they gave no such commandment as follows: "Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law". They gave no commandment to the Gentile converts to keep the law. What law, but the old covenant law, the Law of Moses? So, why do you now seem to not able to accept this and even go against it?   
 
Acts 15:28 For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things; 29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.

So, why these instructions to the Gentile Christians then? The answer is in Acts 15. It is for peace's sake among the church, to keep the peace among Jew and Gentile believers. It was obviously temporary in nature and was for the settlement of a then present day dispute. Temporary until there will be no more dispute on the matter within the church, in the same way that there is not any dispute on the said matter between the chosen and inspired apostles of Christ.

Don't you notice that these things of the law, such as these things they instructed there, the abstaining from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication, are taken by the apostles and elders as being BURDENS? Think about that Amo, as to what is the implication of that on the Law of Moses.

Quote from: Amo
Will your now pretend not to know such things? Nevertheless, the same NT scriptures admonish all to keep the commandments of God many times over and even up to the last book and chapter of the bible. Will you pretend not to know such things. God made a difference between His commandments
and the rest of the laws given specifically to Israel during the old covenant as already specified in our conversation. The NT scriptures do the same thing by allowing for and even specifying many of the changes it does in those same laws specific to Israel, while admonishing all to keep God's commandments at the same time to the end. Will you now pretend not to know this? Shall I quote them all to you? Hear just the ones in the last book of the NT.

Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Rev 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

Rev 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. 13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. 14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. 15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie. 16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.

Of course the NT scriptures admonish all to keep all the laws of God. For the sake of argument, even if for example there is not an NT scriptures that says that, the Holy Spirit who dwells in the Christians tells him the same thing. The issue is not that, but what laws the Christians or the new covenant people of God are to keep and walk their life according to, here on earth? They are definitely not the Law of Moses, but the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus. And how are they to keep it? Logically not according to the letter of the law written in book of the covenant (Mosaic) nor according to the works of the law of Moses, but according to the law written in their mind and heart, and according to the Spirit, carried out in faith and in spirit and in truth.

Quote from: Amo
Why will you determine that all who would keep the commandments of God seek to be saved by the law, when the scriptures identify the saints as those who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ, who also kept the commandments of God and admonished all others to do so as well? Followers of Jesus are not to keep the law in order to be saved, but rather because they are saved in Christ whom they have chosen to follow.


I don't determine as you seem to say I do.

By grace Christians are saved through faith, not that of themselves, not of works. They are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that they should walk in them. 

Quote from: Amo
The commandments and statutes given to Israel of the old covenant were given through the man Moses, exactly because they were of the rudiments of this world and meant to pass away. Many of them were meant to pass away before this world passes away in Christ Jesus our Lord. All that was specific to Israel as a nation alone, and all that was concerning the sanctuary and its services which were meant to point them to Christ are passed away in Christ and His new covenant church. Some of which I shared above from the NT, much more in the book of Hebrews and elsewhere concerning the temple and its sacrifices, and other ceremonial, civil, or dietary laws. This you know, as the scriptures themselves point out. So why do you reject that the ten commandments which all are admonished to keep all through the NT as the same as these other laws and statutes when scripture itself makes a distinction? This is your choice.

What distinction Amo, besides the manner on how God had given them to the children of Israel, that would support your position that this part of the old covenant, the ten commandments are not included with the rest of the covenant law as having been replaced by the new covenant?

Amo, would you say that the law of circumcision in the OT is done away with? If yes, why do you say so? If no, why do you say so?

Quote from: Amo
1 Cor. 7:17 Only, let each one [seek to conduct himself and regulate his affairs so as to] lead the life which the Lord has allotted and imparted to him and to which God has invited and summoned him. This is my order in all the churches. 18 Was anyone at the time of his summons [from God] already circumcised? Let him not seek to remove the evidence of circumcision. Was anyone at the time [God] called him uncircumcised? Let him not be circumcised. 19 For circumcision is nothing and counts for nothing, neither does uncircumcision, but [what counts is] keeping the commandments of God. 20 Everyone should remain after God calls him in the station or condition of life in which the summons found him.(AMPC)

Be careful my friend, to rightly divide the word of God.

Yes my friend, be careful. Don't forget the context in that passage. 
Title: Re: The Jewish Sabbath .......
Post by: Amo on Fri Mar 06, 2020 - 08:42:47
That is what is gobbledegook Amo, that it is now the Christian who says what law is for the children of Israel only and what is for all men. Is that not too convenient for you to say, to support your belief, when clearly, not only is the commandment written in Exodus 35:3 is for Israel alone, but all the laws, commandments, ordinances, statutes, regulations, rules, and judgments, that God gave in covenant to them, and not to the Egyptians nor any other people on earth, through Moses.

If we ask a non Christian Jew, to whom did God gave the ten commandments and applies, was it to the children of Israel only or to the whole world, what do you honestly think will their answer be? Will they give you their personal opinion or will they point you to their scriptures where it says that God gave it in covenant to the children of Israel, and not to the Egyptians nor any other people on earth, through Moses?   

So, you apply the 4th commandment of God to the children of Israel upon you and binds yourself to keep it, and is now the one who regulates it according to whatever you think is fitting. Nothing wrong in that, I have to say. But certainly, the Jew would say the opposite.

Yes you say it is not rocket science, yet apparently you won't answer the simple question, how do you keep the fourth commandment? Why not tell? What are you afraid of? Are you afraid that some in your congregation might not agree on how you are keeping it?
 

Yes my argument is that the old covenant, (meaning all that constitutes it including of course the ten commandments, all the laws, commandments, ordinances, statutes, regulations, rules, and judgments, that God gave in covenant to them, the sanctuary and all that pertains to the worship service, Levitical priesthood and all that pertains to the office of the priests,) was made obsolete and was replaced by the new covenant whose mediator is Jesus Christ. You claim that there are parts of the covenant that were not made obsolete and changed, so that, your argument is that only part of the old covenant (Mosaic) was made obsolete and not really the entire old covenant (Mosaic), which is contrary to scriptures. For the covenant in Christ is not a revised covenant of the covenant that God made with the children of Israel in the day when God took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, with Moses as mediator of the, but is a new one in great lot of sense. The old being but the shadow, and the new being the very substance of the shadow. If you know the difference between a shadow and the very substance, then you will understand the great difference between the old and the new covenants, and would come to understand what becomes of the shadow covenant and see how better off the new covenant is. 

My argument is that, the commandments given by God to Israel written by Himself on tablets of stones, and those He gave to them through Moses to write in a book, are equally God's laws, and not Moses'.Your argument on the other hand is that there is difference between the commandments given by God to Israel written by Himself on tablets of stone, and those He gave to them through Moses to write in a book. 

So, your argument there does not refute my argument. And whether there is difference between the commandments given by God to Israel written by Himself on tablets of stone, and those He gave to them through Moses to write in a book, it does not take away the truth that it is to the children of Israel that God gave them in covenant with, and not with the people of Egypt nor with any other peoples of the earth. So much so that, if I'm not mistaken, any one who is not a natural physical descendant of Israel, who wanted to be in covenant with God and be under the Law of the covenant, is required to become circumcised, as though were native born and become a citizen of the nation of Israel and no longer strangers to the commonwealth of Israel.

How is it that you cannot accept the scriptures in Hebrews 8 which says that the covenant that God made with the children of Israel in the day when God took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, with Moses as mediator, had been made obsolete, having been replaced by the new covenant in Christ? It's not only some parts or constituents of the covenant that was replaced and changed Amo. It's the entire covenant, including all that constitutes it including the ten commandments, all the laws, commandments, ordinances, statutes, regulations, rules, and judgments, that God gave in covenant to them, the sanctuary and all that pertains to the worship service, Levitical priesthood and all that pertains to the office of the priests. 

The Acts 15 passage surely does not refute the truth (for truth does not refute truth)  that the covenant that God made with the children of Israel in the day when God took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, with Moses as mediator, had been made obsolete, having been replaced by the new covenant in Christ. In fact you'll find that it reinforces it, if you'll only read Acts 15 carefully. Do not forget to consider what the issue is about at the time, that is, the salvation issue (Acts 15:1,5) concerning the need for the Gentile converts to the Christian faith to be circumcised in the flesh, and the requirement for them to keep the law of Moses.

Read this passage in Acts 15 carefully and thoughtfully: 24 Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:

Can you not see what the apostles and elders with the whole church at Jerusalem are saying there? That they gave no such commandment as follows: "Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law". They gave no commandment to the Gentile converts to keep the law. What law, but the old covenant law, the Law of Moses? So, why do you now seem to not able to accept this and even go against it?   
 
Acts 15:28 For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things; 29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.

So, why these instructions to the Gentile Christians then? The answer is in Acts 15. It is for peace's sake among the church, to keep the peace among Jew and Gentile believers. It was obviously temporary in nature and was for the settlement of a then present day dispute. Temporary until there will be no more dispute on the matter within the church, in the same way that there is not any dispute on the said matter between the chosen and inspired apostles of Christ.

Don't you notice that these things of the law, such as these things they instructed there, the abstaining from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication, are taken by the apostles and elders as being BURDENS? Think about that Amo, as to what is the implication of that on the Law of Moses.

Of course the NT scriptures admonish all to keep all the laws of God. For the sake of argument, even if for example there is not an NT scriptures that says that, the Holy Spirit who dwells in the Christians tells him the same thing. The issue is not that, but what laws the Christians or the new covenant people of God are to keep and walk their life according to, here on earth? They are definitely not the Law of Moses, but the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus. And how are they to keep it? Logically not according to the letter of the law written in book of the covenant (Mosaic) nor according to the works of the law of Moses, but according to the law written in their mind and heart, and according to the Spirit, carried out in faith and in spirit and in truth.
 

I don't determine as you seem to say I do.

By grace Christians are saved through faith, not that of themselves, not of works. They are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that they should walk in them. 

What distinction Amo, besides the manner on how God had given them to the children of Israel, that would support your position that this part of the old covenant, the ten commandments are not included with the rest of the covenant law as having been replaced by the new covenant?

Amo, would you say that the law of circumcision in the OT is done away with? If yes, why do you say so? If no, why do you say so?

Yes my friend, be careful. Don't forget the context in that passage.

No end to the gobbledegook. Your wasting your time Michael. I will never ignore vast amounts of scripture which point out just exactly what has changed from old to new covenant, and what has not, because of your personal views regarding the same. You simply are not the authority I study and listen to. The scriptures are quite conclusively clear, that the ten commandments have not been done away with, save as that which condemns the sinner for those in Christ alone. They are still the standard which now is not just in written form, but was presented to humanity in bodily form and action in the life, death, and resurrection of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. He who created and sustains us all, also conclusively called all to keep His commandments, which are the commandments of God, because He verily is God. Ramble on bro, you cannot hide the scriptures call for all to keep God's commandments right up to the last book and chapter of the bible. Which book is said to be the Revelation of Jesus Christ, by Jesus Christ Himself. I am settled into this truth, as you are no doubt settled into that which you have chosen. So be it. May our characters be formed according to the same. God will rightly judge between us. May He have mercy upon all of our souls.

Rev 12:17  And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Rev 14:12  Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

Rev 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. 13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. 14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. 15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie. 16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.
Title: Re: The Jewish Sabbath .......
Post by: Michael2012 on Sat Mar 07, 2020 - 13:05:16
No end to the gobbledegook. Your wasting your time Michael. I will never ignore vast amounts of scripture which point out just exactly what has changed from old to new covenant, and what has not, because of your personal views regarding the same. You simply are not the authority I study and listen to. The scriptures are quite conclusively clear, that the ten commandments have not been done away with, save as that which condemns the sinner for those in Christ alone. They are still the standard which now is not just in written form, but was presented to humanity in bodily form and action in the life, death, and resurrection of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. He who created and sustains us all, also conclusively called all to keep His commandments, which are the commandments of God, because He verily is God. Ramble on bro, you cannot hide the scriptures call for all to keep God's commandments right up to the last book and chapter of the bible. Which book is said to be the Revelation of Jesus Christ, by Jesus Christ Himself. I am settled into this truth, as you are no doubt settled into that which you have chosen. So be it. May our characters be formed according to the same. God will rightly judge between us. May He have mercy upon all of our souls.

Rev 12:17  And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Rev 14:12  Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

Rev 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. 13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. 14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. 15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie. 16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.

If you believe all scriptures, how is it that you refuse to accept and believe the scriptures in Hebrews 8 which says that the covenant that God made with the children of Israel in the day when God took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, with Moses as mediator, had been made obsolete, having been replaced by the new covenant in Christ, not only some parts or constituents of the covenant, but the covenant as a whole? It's not me saying that the former covenant was replaced by a new covenant, but scriptures. Well, I think I know why you don't accept and believe those scriptures.

If you believe all scriptures, how is it that you refuse to accept and believe the scriptures in Acts 15, that the apostles gave no such commandment to converts as follows: "Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law".   
 
If you believe all scriptures, how is it that you refuse to accept and believe the scriptures in Acts 15, that the things of the law, such as the things they instructed there, the abstaining from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication, are taken by the apostles and elders as being BURDENS?

And Amo, why do you not answer the question: would you say that the law of circumcision in the OT is done away with? If yes, why do you say so? If no, why do you say so?
Title: Re: The Jewish Sabbath .......
Post by: Amo on Sat Mar 07, 2020 - 18:54:04
If you believe all scriptures, how is it that you refuse to accept and believe the scriptures in Hebrews 8 which says that the covenant that God made with the children of Israel in the day when God took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, with Moses as mediator, had been made obsolete, having been replaced by the new covenant in Christ, not only some parts or constituents of the covenant, but the covenant as a whole? It's not me saying that the former covenant was replaced by a new covenant, but scriptures. Well, I think I know why you don't accept and believe those scriptures.

If you believe all scriptures, how is it that you refuse to accept and believe the scriptures in Acts 15, that the apostles gave no such commandment to converts as follows: "Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law".   
 
If you believe all scriptures, how is it that you refuse to accept and believe the scriptures in Acts 15, that the things of the law, such as the things they instructed there, the abstaining from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication, are taken by the apostles and elders as being BURDENS?

And Amo, why do you not answer the question: would you say that the law of circumcision in the OT is done away with? If yes, why do you say so? If no, why do you say so?

First and foremost, the scriptures I shared with you and you quoted above are from the new covenant New Testament, which itself up to the last book and chapter identifies God's own as those who keep His commandments and have the faith of Jesus. As I have already stated, the new covenant scriptures address what has changed or been done away with or not in this new covenant era. You simply refuse to acknowledge that the new covenant scriptures still hold the commandments of God up as the standard, insisting they are part of what was done away with, apparently choosing to ignore these scriptures.

The exact context of Hebrews 8 is in relation to the sanctuary, sacrifices, and high priestly ministry of the old covenant being replaced by Jesus Christ the true sacrifice and LAMB OF GOD, our true new covenant High Priest in the heavenly sanctuary built without hands, and the corner stone of the new covenant temple of God. Even in these scriptures, it is the old covenant that is done away with, not specifically God's law or commandments as you wish to suggest apparently. To the contrary, these scriptures reference to the law is concerning establishing God's law by writing them upon our hearts, not just tables of stone. This is hardly doing away with them, but definitely establishing them. Just as the Apostle Paul testifies concerning one of the main purposes of Christ's life for us -

Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: 4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. 8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. 9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. 10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

God's law has, does, and will continue to condemn all who choose to remain outside of the salvation provided in Jesus Christ alone. Those only who have accepted the atoning sacrifice of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ will be saved from the condemnation of God's law, because the authority of that law has never been nullified. Christ's own are and have been admonished by Christ Himself and His Apostles to keep God's commandments in this new covenant era. You simply refuse this straight testimony because you do not want to keep one of God's commandments. Unless of course you do not want to keep others as well, I do not know. How can one who is supposed to have God's law written upon their heart, not want to keep it?

As far as circumcision goes I have already shared scripture from the Apostle Paul addressing this issue for the new covenant. Why do you reject his testimony?

Rom 2:23 Thou that makest thy boast in the law, dost thou dishonor God through breaking the law? 24 For, “The name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles through you,” as it is written. 25 For circumcision verily profiteth if thou keep the law; but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision. 26 Therefore if the Uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision? 27 And shall not uncircumcision, which is by nature, if it fulfill the law, judge thee, who having the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law? 28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh. 29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly, and whose circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit and not in the letter, and whose praise is not from men, but from God.(KJ21)

What law is the above scripture referring to which the uncircumcised can keep which will be counted as circumcision? Is it not the law or commandments of God as Paul teaches elsewhere? Yes it is. Paul differentiates the two in verse 27 when he states that the Jew has the letter of God's law, and circumcision. Then points out that true circumcision which is a sign that one is God's, is of the heart and not the letter. That is to say, the one who actually fulfills the righteousness of the law is truly circumcised of the spirit and not just the letter. Again this is about establishing God's law and commandments, not doing away with them as you wrongly conclude. Thus do you refuse to make any difference between the law given to humanity directly by the mouth and finger of God, and those meant to change over time and circumstance such as those given to literal Israel of the old covenant by the hand and mouth of Moses, such as circumcision. As Paul plainly testifies in the following scriptures.

1 For 7:18 Is any man called, being circumcised? Let him not become uncircumcised. Is any called, being uncircumcised? Let him not be circumcised. 19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but what matters is the keeping of the commandments of God. 20 Let every man abide in the same calling as when he was called.(KJ21)

Why do you reject these new covenant scriptural teachings and others I have already shared with you, and wrongly divide other scriptures to contradict their testimony? Is it not because you do not wish to keep one or more of the commandments of God?

Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. 19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Why do you reject the above testimony of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ who is verily God? So be it.
Title: Re: The Jewish Sabbath .......
Post by: Michael2012 on Sun Mar 08, 2020 - 04:03:16
Quote from: Michael
If you believe all scriptures, how is it that you refuse to accept and believe the scriptures in Hebrews 8 which says that the covenant that God made with the children of Israel in the day when God took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, with Moses as mediator, had been made obsolete, having been replaced by the new covenant in Christ, not only some parts or constituents of the covenant, but the covenant as a whole? It's not me saying that the former covenant was replaced by a new covenant, but scriptures. Well, I think I know why you don't accept and believe those scriptures.

If you believe all scriptures, how is it that you refuse to accept and believe the scriptures in Acts 15, that the apostles gave no such commandment to converts as follows: "Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law".   
 
If you believe all scriptures, how is it that you refuse to accept and believe the scriptures in Acts 15, that the things of the law, such as the things they instructed there, the abstaining from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication, are taken by the apostles and elders as being BURDENS?

And Amo, why do you not answer the question: would you say that the law of circumcision in the OT is done away with? If yes, why do you say so? If no, why do you say so?
First and foremost, the scriptures I shared with you and you quoted above are from the new covenant New Testament, which itself up to the last book and chapter identifies God's own as those who keep His commandments and have the faith of Jesus. As I have already stated, the new covenant scriptures address what has changed or been done away with or not in this new covenant era. You simply refuse to acknowledge that the new covenant scriptures still hold the commandments of God up as the standard, insisting they are part of what was done away with, apparently choosing to ignore these scriptures.

The exact context of Hebrews 8 is in relation to the sanctuary, sacrifices, and high priestly ministry of the old covenant being replaced by Jesus Christ the true sacrifice and LAMB OF GOD, our true new covenant High Priest in the heavenly sanctuary built without hands, and the corner stone of the new covenant temple of God. Even in these scriptures, it is the old covenant that is done away with, not specifically God's law or commandments as you wish to suggest apparently. To the contrary, these scriptures reference to the law is concerning establishing God's law by writing them upon our hearts, not just tables of stone. This is hardly doing away with them, but definitely establishing them.

First, I do not ignore NT scriptures Amo. It is that I believe them that brings me to this argument. On the opposite, it is you who ignore scriptures, if not, read them to mean what you say. A clear example is that the OT and the NT says that it is the covenant that will be made new. But you want them to mean that, it is not really the covenant, but only most part of it. That's not rightly dividing the word, changing what scriptures meant to say, and there is the problem.

I'll show you. Prior to the coming of Christ, this is what scriptures says:

Jer. 31: 31 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:
33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

What will be made new? It is the covenant that God made with the children of Israel when God took them out of the land of Egypt. So, it's clearly the covenant, not only some part of it. What is this covenant to be made new? It's in your Bible, and it includes the ten commandments and all that is written in the book of the law, which are the covenant laws (These covenant laws, you separated and make it appear, as not part of the covenant). Also, in this covenant, is included the the sanctuary, sacrifices, and high priestly ministry. The OT people acknowledged and knew the covenant includes all of that Amo.

Read Jer. 31:33, it says "this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts..". Do you not see? I have boldenned them for you. In making the covenant, what is the very first thing involved and included? That's right, the giving and writing of the LAW, the covenant Law. It is not I who says the law are part of the covenant Amo. It is scriptures. Why would you not want to acknowledge that and seems to suggest that the law is separate from the covenant or not part of it? 

That is the OT scriptures that the NT scriptures in Hebrews 8 says had come to pass. While NT scriptures speaks in detail about some of those which were changed, it does not mean that those which the NT did not speak in detail were not changed or were not part of the covenant. Such conclusion is definitely erroneous. That's not rightly dividing the word.

So, in the new covenant, God writes His Law in minds and hearts. If you claim to be in the new covenant, then you would certainly know what God had written in your heart. And considering what you have been saying, what is clear to me that is written in your heart are the ten commandments. The others, if there is more, I don't know unless you tell. And by that, you take that as to mean that the ten commandments were not done away with, even while such position stands contrary to scriptures. That's not rightly dividing the word.

Hebrews 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

It's hard apparently for you, and is unthinkable for you that the ten commandments were done away with by that. But that is the truth. It is not as though, when they are said to have been made old and done away with, that they were not made new, changed with a better one, and far much better I have to point out. From shadows to the substance. Notice these things. The Levitical priesthood was done away with, but not without putting a better priesthood ~ the eternal priesthood of Jesus Christ. The system for the atonement for sin was done away with, but not without the putting of a better one ~ atonement by the offering of a better sacrifice, a once and for all sacrifice for sin. The earthly sanctuary was done away with, but not without putting a better one ~ a heavenly sanctuary. The Old covenant Law (including the ten commandments) was done away with, but not without putting a better Law ~ the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus. Even the promised land, an earthly country, to a much better one ~ a heavenly country. From shadow to the substance.

You seemed so attached to the ten commandments and other OT laws perhaps, that you seem to prefer them over the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus. So, as it is then, you have the ten commandments and some undisclosed OT laws given by God to the children of Israel as to be what is written in your mind and heart. You walked according to that law. On the other hand, what is written in my mind and heart is the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus. I walk according to that law. That is where we differ the most.   
 
Quote from: Amo
Just as the Apostle Paul testifies concerning one of the main purposes of Christ's life for us -

Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: 4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. 8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. 9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. 10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

God's law has, does, and will continue to condemn all who choose to remain outside of the salvation provided in Jesus Christ alone. Those only who have accepted the atoning sacrifice of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ will be saved from the condemnation of God's law, because the authority of that law has never been nullified. Christ's own are and have been admonished by Christ Himself and His Apostles to keep God's commandments in this new covenant era. You simply refuse this straight testimony because you do not want to keep one of God's commandments. Unless of course you do not want to keep others as well, I do not know. How can one who is supposed to have God's law written upon their heart, not want to keep it?

That's right, "God's law has, does, and will continue to condemn all who choose to remain outside of the salvation provided in Jesus Christ alone." But are you one of them? The Christian is not among them right? And so, God's law will not condemn the Christian. Why? Exactly because the Christian is not under the law. To the Christian, the law is done away with.

About the keeping of God's law, no Christian would say to not keep the law of God. We should, for a lot good reasons. That is not an issue. The issue is, what is God's Law in the New Covenant. What we believe that is, is what we should keep and walk according to. You have the ten commandments and others, I have the law of the Spirit. Do you want to know about the law of the Spirit? You want to keep the shadow, I keep the substance. An example of a shadow you keep, "Thou shalt not commit adultery." And the substance I keep, "whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart." Another shadow "Thou shalt not kill." The substance, "Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer". If you'll observe, the shadow is work, and the substance is spirit. As such, your law is of works and my law is of the spirit. That is the big difference between us. 

Quote from: Amo
As far as circumcision goes I have already shared scripture from the Apostle Paul addressing this issue for the new covenant. Why do you reject his testimony?

Rom 2:23 Thou that makest thy boast in the law, dost thou dishonor God through breaking the law? 24 For, “The name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles through you,” as it is written. 25 For circumcision verily profiteth if thou keep the law; but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision. 26 Therefore if the Uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision? 27 And shall not uncircumcision, which is by nature, if it fulfill the law, judge thee, who having the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law? 28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh. 29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly, and whose circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit and not in the letter, and whose praise is not from men, but from God.(KJ21)

What law is the above scripture referring to which the uncircumcised can keep which will be counted as circumcision? Is it not the law or commandments of God as Paul teaches elsewhere? Yes it is. Paul differentiates the two in verse 27 when he states that the Jew has the letter of God's law, and circumcision. Then points out that true circumcision which is a sign that one is God's, is of the heart and not the letter. That is to say, the one who actually fulfills the righteousness of the law is truly circumcised of the spirit and not just the letter. Again this is about establishing God's law and commandments, not doing away with them as you wrongly conclude. Thus do you refuse to make any difference between the law given to humanity directly by the mouth and finger of God, and those meant to change over time and circumstance such as those given to literal Israel of the old covenant by the hand and mouth of Moses, such as circumcision. As Paul plainly testifies in the following scriptures.

1 For 7:18 Is any man called, being circumcised? Let him not become uncircumcised. Is any called, being uncircumcised? Let him not be circumcised. 19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but what matters is the keeping of the commandments of God. 20 Let every man abide in the same calling as when he was called.(KJ21)

Of course I don't reject the testimony of Paul. If there is anything I reject, it is not scriptures, but other's wrong interpretation of it. So, we have those scriptures. But my question to you is, would you say that the law of circumcision in the OT is done away with? And because you gave those scriptures as your answer, then I would be guessing what it is you are saying with that scriptures, making the exchange more difficult. It seems to me your answer to my question is yes. And if so, was it not because it was part of the covenant that was made new? Now, what is the significance of circumcision in the Old covenant? Is it not a token of the covenant between God and Abraham and is a seal of the righteousness of the faith that Abraham had when he was yet uncircumcised? What does it mean to be uncircumcised but that he does not take part of the covenant? The Israelites were circumcised, and so they were part of the covenant between God and Abraham. What then is wrong with being circumcised, that it was done away with? Nothing at all, yet it was done away with, right? In the same sense, the Law is good and there was nothing wrong with it, but was done away with. There's nothing to be offended about that. They were done away with, not because they are no good, but because, the substance for which they are a shadow of, had come. They were done away with to be changed by the substance that they foreshadow, the realities, which were far better of course. The circumcision of the flesh was replaced by the circumcision that is of the heart, in the spirit, by Jesus Christ.

The very scriptures you quoted says of circumcision "For circumcision verily profiteth if thou keep the law". What law is in view here, but the Old Covenant Law which includes the ten commandments? Paul says that circumcision has value if you keep the law. Clearly, circumcision binds one to keep the law. Paul made this clear elsewhere saying that, one who lets himself be circumcised, he is obligated to obey the whole law. So, circumcision is good, right? For it is about keeping the law, and there's definitely nothing wrong with that. It's about keeping God's laws, the ten commandments especially. But then, Paul said elsewhere to the Christians, if you let yourselves be circumcised, Christ will be of no value to you at all. Ask yourself this question, Why will Christ be of no value to the Christian who lets himself be circumcised, when one who becomes circumcised is to keep the Law?

Quote from: Amo
Why do you reject these new covenant scriptural teachings and others I have already shared with you, and wrongly divide other scriptures to contradict their testimony? Is it not because you do not wish to keep one or more of the commandments of God?

Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. 19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Why do you reject the above testimony of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ who is verily God? So be it.

As I said, I and no Christian I believe would not want to keep God's Law. That is not the issue. As I said, the issue is, what is God's Law in the New Covenant, for the Christian. The Christian should seek to keep God's law in the New covenant, and not that of the Old covenant.

Definitely, Jesus did not come to destroy the Law or the prophets, but to fulfill.
Concerning the Law, Jesus said "verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled."

A question for you, had not Jesus fulfilled the law?

Yes, I believe he sure had. If you say otherwise, then what is it that Jesus had not yet fulfilled in the law? And tell us why Paul said "For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth."
Title: Re: The Jewish Sabbath .......
Post by: Michael2012 on Sun Mar 08, 2020 - 04:08:26
Amo, why had you ignored again this part of my post to you? I hope you can address them this time.

If you believe all scriptures, how is it that you refuse to accept and believe the scriptures in Acts 15, that the apostles gave no such commandment to converts as follows: "Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law".   
 
If you believe all scriptures, how is it that you refuse to accept and believe the scriptures in Acts 15, that the things of the law, such as the things they instructed there, the abstaining from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication, are taken by the apostles and elders as being BURDENS?
Title: Re: The Jewish Sabbath .......
Post by: GB on Sun Mar 08, 2020 - 07:57:41
 author=Michael2012 link=topic=105259.msg1055157457#msg1055157457 date=1583658506]
Amo, why had you ignored again this part of my post to you? I hope you can address them this time.

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If you believe all scriptures, how is it that you refuse to accept and believe the scriptures in Acts 15, that the apostles gave no such commandment to converts as follows: "Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law".   

What evidence do you have that the Jews were following and teaching God's Commandments? What if Amo also read these Word's of the Christ and believed them?

Matt. 15:7 Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying,

8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me. 9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

The Jews were teaching Law, but according to the Christ Himself, it wasn't God's Law, it was their own religious law. (You can't eat an apple without first washing your hands a certain way, you can't take a walk on the Christ's Holy Sabbath and pick a blackberry to eat, etc.)

Acts 15:10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?

What was this yoke? You and "many" who come in Christ's Name, teach this yoke was God's Laws. But Jesus Himself tells us the opposite.

Matt. 23:4 For they (Jews, not God) bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; (Necks) but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers.

So for Amo to believe as you, that this "Yoke" in Acts 15 was God's Commandments, Amo must first reject the Christ's Own Words regarding their teaching. They called their religion "circumcision and the Law of Moses", this is true. But Jesus said; "Did not Moses give you the law, and yet none of you keepeth the law?

And again;

"But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?"

 
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If you believe all scriptures, how is it that you refuse to accept and believe the scriptures in Acts 15,

I know that it is precisely because I believe "ALL Scriptures", that I know the Yoke mentioned that burdens men are not God's Commandments, but doctrines and commandments of men they taught in their religious traditions.

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that the things of the law, such as the things they instructed there, the abstaining from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication, are taken by the apostles and elders as being BURDENS?[/b]

Acts 15:19 Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God: (With ancient religious traditions and commandments of religious men who killed the prophets, Stephen and Jesus)

20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, (God's Commandment) and from fornication, (God's Commandment) and from things strangled, (God's Commandment) and from blood. (God's Commandment)

21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.

They will learn what the Bible actually teaches when it is read on the Sabbath.

Ironically, this is the same instruction Jesus gave to His Disciples and the people before He was killed.

Matt. 23:2 Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:

3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.

Maybe Amo is the one who believes ALL Scripture, and you are the one who refuses to accept the very Word's of the Christ.








Title: Re: The Jewish Sabbath .......
Post by: Michael2012 on Sun Mar 08, 2020 - 12:35:40
Amo, why had you ignored again this part of my post to you? I hope you can address them this time.

If you believe all scriptures, how is it that you refuse to accept and believe the scriptures in Acts 15, that the apostles gave no such commandment to converts as follows: "Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law".

What evidence do you have that the Jews were following and teaching God's Commandments? What if Amo also read these Word's of the Christ and believed them?

Matt. 15:7 Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying,

8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me. 9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

The Jews were teaching Law, but according to the Christ Himself, it wasn't God's Law, it was their own religious law. (You can't eat an apple without first washing your hands a certain way, you can't take a walk on the Christ's Holy Sabbath and pick a blackberry to eat, etc.)

Acts 15:10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?

What was this yoke? You and "many" who come in Christ's Name, teach this yoke was God's Laws. But Jesus Himself tells us the opposite.

Matt. 23:4 For they (Jews, not God) bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; (Necks) but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers.

So for Amo to believe as you, that this "Yoke" in Acts 15 was God's Commandments, Amo must first reject the Christ's Own Words regarding their teaching. They called their religion "circumcision and the Law of Moses", this is true. But Jesus said; "Did not Moses give you the law, and yet none of you keepeth the law?

And again;

"But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?"

Acts 15:1 And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved. 2 When therefore Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and disputation with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas, and certain other of them, should go up to Jerusalem unto the apostles and elders about this question. 3 And being brought on their way by the church, they passed through Phenice and Samaria, declaring the conversion of the Gentiles: and they caused great joy unto all the brethren. 4 And when they were come to Jerusalem, they were received of the church, and of the apostles and elders, and they declared all things that God had done with them. 5 But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses. 6 And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter.

Circumcision is being required upon the Gentile Christians by the Jewish Christians, saying "Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.". Do you agree with these Jewish Christians mentioned in verse 1? The apostles don't agree with them. So, I don't believe that Gentile Christians need to be circumcised to be saved.

At the church in Jerusalem, Jewish Christians, who were of the Pharisees, believed as the Jewish Christians in verse 1, saying "it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses."

Of course, the apostles don't agree with them. Now, here comes one like the serpent in the garden, with a voice suggesting, the law of Moses mentioned in verse 5 refers not to the commandments of God but to the commandments of men. I'm thankful to God, unlike Eve, I have the Holy Spirit dwelling in me, that I am able to not be deceived by this annoying and persistent voice.

Perhaps, these Jewish Christians of verses 1 and 5, may still have some hang on the teachings of those hypocrites in Matthew 15. But the Jewish apostles, who were inspired and filled with the Holy Spirit, I believe knows the scriptures and so then, the Law of Moses (as given by God to Moses to give to the children of Israel, in covenant). So, the apostles know what they were up against. Don't worry that they might not know what you know. I'm sure they do know more than you know.

Now, regarding what Peter said in verse 10, "Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?", the other voice says the yoke spoken of there refers not to the Law of Moses (as given by God to Moses to give to the children of Israel, in covenant), but to the man-made law of the Pharisees. This lie will be exposed later  in the next related segment.

So, the false commandment coming from the Jewish Christians in verse 1: "Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law". What is circumcision? Paul said of circumcision, "For circumcision verily profiteth if thou keep the law". What law is in view here, but the Law of Moses (as given by God to Moses to give to the children of Israel, in covenant)? The inspired apostle Paul is not referring to the commandments of the Pharisees. Spirit filled Paul says that circumcision has value if you keep the law. Clearly, circumcision binds one to keep the law. Paul made this clear elsewhere saying that, one who lets himself be circumcised, he is obligated to obey the whole law. So, circumcision is good, right? For it is about keeping the law, and there's definitely nothing wrong with that. It's about keeping God's laws, the ten commandments especially. But then, Paul said elsewhere to the Christians, if you let yourselves be circumcised, Christ will be of no value to you at all. Ask yourself this question, Why will Christ be of no value to the Christian who lets himself be circumcised, when one who becomes circumcised is to keep the Law?
 
Quote from: GB
Quote from: Michael
If you believe all scriptures, how is it that you refuse to accept and believe the scriptures in Acts 15,
I know that it is precisely because I believe "ALL Scriptures", that I know the Yoke mentioned that burdens men are not God's Commandments, but doctrines and commandments of men they taught in their religious traditions.

Quote from: Michael
the things of the law, such as the things they instructed there, the abstaining from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication, are taken by the apostles and elders as being BURDENS?[/b]

Acts 15:19 Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God: (With ancient religious traditions and commandments of religious men who killed the prophets, Stephen and Jesus)

20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, (God's Commandment) and from fornication, (God's Commandment) and from things strangled, (God's Commandment) and from blood. (God's Commandment)

21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.

They will learn what the Bible actually teaches when it is read on the Sabbath.

Ironically, this is the same instruction Jesus gave to His Disciples and the people before He was killed.

Matt. 23:2 Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:

3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.

Maybe Amo is the one who believes ALL Scripture, and you are the one who refuses to accept the very Word's of the Christ.

I can see that you have added your voice in parenthesis in Acts 15:19-21.

Here's the content of the letter they wrote and sent to the brethren which are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia.

23 And they wrote letters by them after this manner; The apostles and elders and brethren send greeting unto the brethren which are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia.

24 Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:

25 It seemed good unto us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men unto you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul,

26 Men that have hazarded their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.

27 We have sent therefore Judas and Silas, who shall also tell you the same things by mouth.

28 For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost and to us,, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;

29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.

It's clear, the inspired Spirit filled chosen apostles of Jesus Christ, gave no such commandment as Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law. We understand the reason on this in what Paul said elsewhere in scriptures, that doing so, Christ will be of no value to the Christian who lets himself be circumcised and binds himself to keep the Law.

Those mentioned in verse 29, as were also mentioned in verse 20, you admit and acknowledged to be God's commandments and not the commandments of men of the Pharisees of Matthew 15.

In verse 28, the Holy Spirit and the inspired apostles speaks of those commandments of God mentioned in verse 29 as being burden.
 
But of course you will not accept and believe that. 

And by saying "to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things" suggest that there are more, but that they think it would be too much burden for the Gentile Christians to bear.
Title: Re: The Jewish Sabbath .......
Post by: beam on Mon Mar 09, 2020 - 09:51:37
No end to the gobbledegook. Your wasting your time Michael. I will never ignore vast amounts of scripture which point out just exactly what has changed from old to new covenant, and what has not, because of your personal views regarding the same. You simply are not the authority I study and listen to.

Show us that "VAST AMOUNT OF SCRIPTURE" Amo.  It would be very wise to take to heart what Michael wrote instead of clinging to to what the prophet wrote.  Believe me, the prophet has been proven to be false.

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The scriptures are quite conclusively clear, that the ten commandments have not been done away with,
2Cor 3: 6 He has enabled us to be ministers of his new covenant. This is a covenant not of written laws, but of the Spirit. The old written covenant ends in death; but under the new covenant, the Spirit gives life.




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save as that which condemns the sinner for those in Christ alone. They are still the standard which now is not just in written form, but was presented to humanity in bodily form and action in the life, death, and resurrection of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. He who created and sustains us all, also conclusively called all to keep His commandments, which are the commandments of God, because He verily is God. Ramble on bro, you cannot hide the scriptures call for all to keep God's commandments right up to the last book and chapter of the bible. Which book is said to be the Revelation of Jesus Christ, by Jesus Christ Himself. I am settled into this truth, as you are no doubt settled into that which you have chosen. So be it. May our characters be formed according to the same. God will rightly judge between us. May He have mercy upon all of our souls.
God has given many commandments Amo.  I would ask of you to prove that the commands given in the texts below are ten commandment requirements.  I don't see a ten in any of those texts.  I don't believe adding to scripture is allowed now is it?

Rev 12:17  And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Rev 14:12  Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

Rev 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. 13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. 14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. 15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie. 16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.
Title: Re: The Jewish Sabbath .......
Post by: Amo on Fri Mar 13, 2020 - 12:09:45
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Show us that "VAST AMOUNT OF SCRIPTURE" Amo.  It would be very wise to take to heart what Michael wrote instead of clinging to to what the prophet wrote.  Believe me, the prophet has been proven to be false.

You have proved nothing false beam, but in your own twisted mind. Show us where I have quoted the prophet you speak of in this thread, or any other not relating exactly to that prophet beam. EGW is your constant cop out and excuse for actual knowledge or defense regarding this and many other issues. You and yours are completely eaten up with her writings, bringing them up constantly as a crutch diversionary tactic when scripture fails your false doctrines, or blatantly contradicts your testimony. I do not use or bring up her writings accepting very rare occasions, you and yours use and bring up her writings in defense of your positions far more than anyone else on these boards, crying the same old lame diversionary tactic, false prophet rants. If you want to see some of the scriptures I was speaking of, start by going back and reading this thread where I have already quoted many of them. I cannot address your willing ignorance of all pertaining to the same you simply deny.

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2Cor 3: 6 He has enabled us to be ministers of his new covenant. This is a covenant not of written laws, but of the Spirit. The old written covenant ends in death; but under the new covenant, the Spirit gives life.

What version of the scriptures is the above, and why did you quote it in red, which is usually associated with the words of Christ Himself? What do you mean by quoting the above beam? Will you now contradict yourself and scripture in unreasonable defense of your false doctrines? You are the one who insists that all old covenant laws and regs. are to be lumped together. So do you now deny that the sanctuary and its services which typified the sacrifice of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, saved the Jews who placed their faith in the same? Will those who placed their faith in Christ during the old covenant by participating in the same, all die? Is this what you are trying to say with the above quoted scripture? Will you deny the following words of the same author who wrote your above quoted statement, though apparently paraphrased?

Heb 4:1  Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it. 2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it. 3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world. 4 For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works. 5 And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest. 6 Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief: 7 Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts. 8 For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day. 9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God. 10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his. 11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.

Are you saying that the gospel preached to the Jews during the old covenant by way of the law and sanctuary services only produced death, that all Israel of the old covenant is doomed? If so, you do not understand the gospel at all, or the covenants, or the law. Faith has alway been the issue, not works. The ditch has always been on both sides of the road. One side says they can be saved by the law. The other says there is no law or standard, save their own which they invent. Both will lead to destruction. You are of the latter camp. Abject ignorance alone, would determine that the old covenant established by God for humanity was unto death. This is only for those who would try to reestablish the old covenant during this new covenant era. The old covenant was established by God unto salvation for humanity before the reality of Christ and His birth, life, death, and resurrection. Your false doctrine twists a tangled web of the scriptures, and the words of the apostle Paul himself even as Peter has warned us from his day. You would do well to take Peter's advise, or it will not end well for you.

2Pe 3:14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless. 15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; 16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction. 17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.

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God has given many commandments Amo.  I would ask of you to prove that the commands given in the texts below are ten commandment requirements.  I don't see a ten in any of those texts.  I don't believe adding to scripture is allowed now is it?

Yes I know, when it is convenient you make no separation between any old covenant laws, though the scripture you shared above which I addressed, seems to imply one. Unless it, or in reality you take it to mean that even the commandments concerning faith in Christ's sacrifice through the old covenant sanctuary, were unto death. In which case of course, none were saved during the old covenant at all. These are the kind of contradictions false gospels cause. They make one scripture contradict the testimony of another. Again, the problem is your's because of what you choose to believe, not mine. You are the one who makes no separation between the ten spoken by the mouth of God and written with His own finger twice for humanity, and those specific to literal Israel by the hand and mouth of Moses, not me. You may attempt to project the problems brought about by your own twisted understanding upon my faith if you wish, but I will have none of it. This problem is from the faith you have chosen, not mine.