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Offline GB

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Re: The Jewish Sabbath .......
« Reply #35 on: Thu Jan 30, 2020 - 18:38:10 »
Michael is more than able in answering his own post, but I must say a word about your first statement.

GB, God is much wiser than you give him the credit of being~putting you in charge or at least a protector of the truth of the gospel would be like putting a fox over the hen's house to protect them! He's going to devour every one of them if left unsupervised and challenged.

Like you, Michael has a religion to promote and preserve. He didn't mention the commandment God gave Abram, nor did he acknowledge Abram's obedience to the command because both of these things are contrary to the religious doctrine he espouses.

That God picked Abraham out of the blue and blessed him based on some unseen standard unknown to humans in general. The same deception promoted by many who come in Christ's name. You know better, but preach these falsehoods anyway. Michael is just following the teaching, and really doesn't understand the implications of what he furthers.

I only point out the Word's of God that he omits from his religion, in hopes he will see what God really says, instead of just blindly following the religious masses.

A rebuke was in order for purposefully omitting two very important aspects of this example God had written for our admonition, in order to further a doctrine God does not teach. Your doctrine that we have no say or part in our own salvation, or obligation to deny our self when called.

I know you will not consider, but these studies really solidify my understanding by exercise of use. And your reaction to simply Biblical Truth are the Prophesies of the scriptures coming alive in my lifetime. It is truly a humbling experience.





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Re: The Jewish Sabbath .......
« Reply #35 on: Thu Jan 30, 2020 - 18:38:10 »

Offline RB

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Re: The Jewish Sabbath .......
« Reply #36 on: Fri Jan 31, 2020 - 05:25:04 »
Like you, Michael has a religion to promote and preserve.
Every person that has ever lived promotes their understanding of God, for or against for the most part, either by their speaking, writing, or their lifestyle, even more so on such forums. But let me assure you that God's truth does not depend on feeble and unstable and at times unfaithful men for its preservation, just as we see in the life of the mighty Abraham father of all the faithful. God Almighty called Abraham out of a land of heathens who were "Polytheism" in their understanding of the Godhead to believing in Monotheism. Even when Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings in Genesis 14 met a greater man named Melchisedec, king of Salem, priest of the most high God~To whom also Abraham gave a tenth part of all; first being by interpretation King of righteousness, and after that also King of Salem, which is, King of peace! we know very little about this great man, which only proves that God is more than able to preserve his truth WITHOUT US, and in many cases more so for he can raise up men from wheresoever he so desires to do so and use the most feeble of them all to carry out his word so that it will not return void unto him. Satan works much harder to preserve his lies than God needs in order to accomplish his eternal purposes.
Quote from: GB Reply #35 on: Yesterday at 18:38:10
He didn't mention the commandment God gave Abram, nor did he acknowledge Abram's obedience to the command because both of these things are contrary to the religious doctrine he espouses.
The reason why is the same reason I have done little of that and it is because that is not the subject under consideration, pure and simple. If you desire to speak on the evidence of being a child of God is our LOVE for the commandments of God and our OBEDIENCE to them, then we both would whole heartily agree without much hesitation unless one makes them a CONDITION, for then one can easily push for works in order to obtain eternal life and that would go against the scriptures. You were dead wrong when you said:
Quote from: GB on: Yesterday at 13:11:11
You are wrong about what the Old And New Covenants of the Bible are, you don't know, nor do you care, about the Priesthood and the implication of God's Covenant with Levi on behalf of Israel, and you are preaching falsehoods when you preach that Abraham had no part in his own salvation.
You use the words save/saved/salvation with one wide brush to mean slavation from sin and condemantion when it is used in more than just that sense. Abraham did not have ANY PART in his salvation from sin and condemnation is so clearly stated in Romans 4~
Quote from: Paul
Romans 4:1-4~"What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt."
Abraham was legally justified by GRACE ALONE, EVIDENT by his faith which proves that he HAD BEEN justified in God's eternal counsel by the obedience of Jesus Christ through whom grace was given to him BEFORE the foundation of the world.  See and consider 2nd Timothy 1:9. Abraham's faith and godly obedience justified him BEFORE MAN and even in his own conscience, but NOT BEFORE GOD. This is what James speaks of in James 2; and Paul in Romans 5:1-3. I could keep going but enough for now on this precious and glorious truth.
Quote from: GB on: Yesterday at 18:38:10
That God picked Abraham out of the blue and blessed him based on some unseen standard unknown to humans in general. The same deception promoted by many who come in Christ's name. You know better, but preach these falsehoods anyway.
Not based on some unseen standard unknown to humans in general, but God did sovereignly elected Abraham according to his own will and purpose according to Ephesians chapter one, etc. But it was based upon the redemption and the wisdom of God purposed IN JESUS CHRIST God's Righteous Son.
Quote from: THE HOLY GHOST
Romans 3:20-25~"Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin. But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus."
GB, NOT based on some unseen standard unknown to humans in general~it IS witness by the LAW and the prophets! This shows that your understanding of the law of God is without spiritual understanding, for I NEVER hear you say much of CHRIST and his obedience, but it is always based on MAN'S WORKS in order to enter into eternal life.
Quote from: GB on: Yesterday at 18:38:10
these studies really solidify my understanding by exercise of use. And your reaction to simply Biblical Truth are the Prophesies of the scriptures coming alive in my lifetime. It is truly a humbling experience.
Your words in this quote should be used to define DECEPTION~and I might add a STRONG DELUSION per 2nd Thessalonians 2.

       

« Last Edit: Fri Jan 31, 2020 - 05:30:04 by RB »

Offline Amo

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Re: The Jewish Sabbath .......
« Reply #37 on: Fri Jan 31, 2020 - 12:10:15 »
There is no question where, when, and by whom the seventh day sabbath was established. Neither is there any question whom this sabbath belongs to.

Isa 66:22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain. 23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.

Ezek 46:1 Thus saith the Lord GOD; The gate of the inner court that looketh toward the east shall be shut the six working days; but on the sabbath it shall be opened, and in the day of the new moon it shall be opened. 2 And the prince shall enter by the way of the porch of that gate without, and shall stand by the post of the gate, and the priests shall prepare his burnt offering and his peace offerings, and he shall worship at the threshold of the gate: then he shall go forth; but the gate shall not be shut until the evening. 3 Likewise the people of the land shall worship at the door of this gate before the LORD in the sabbaths and in the new moons. 4 And the burnt offering that the prince shall offer unto the LORD in the sabbath day shall be six lambs without blemish, and a ram without blemish.

Num 28:9 And on the sabbath day two lambs of the first year without spot, and two tenth deals of flour for a meat offering, mingled with oil, and the drink offering thereof: 10 This is the burnt offering of every sabbath,beside the continual burnt offering, and his drink offering.

Exod 20:10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:

Exod 31:13 Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying, Verily my Sabbaths ye shall keep: for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that ye may know that I am the LORD that doth sanctify you.

Deut 5:14 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, nor thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thine ox, nor thine ass, nor any of thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates; that thy manservant and thy maidservant may rest as well as thou.

Lev 19:3 Ye shall fear every man his mother, and his father, and keep my sabbaths: I am the LORD your God.

Lev 19:30 Ye shall keep my sabbaths, and reverence my sanctuary: I am the LORD.

Lev 26:2 Ye shall keep my sabbaths, and reverence my sanctuary: I am the LORD.

Isa 56:4 For thus saith the LORD unto the eunuchs that keep my sabbaths, and choose the things that please me, and take hold of my covenant; 5 Even unto them will I give in mine house and within my walls a place and a name better than of sons and of daughters: I will give them an everlasting name, that shall not be cut off. 6 Also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to the LORD, to serve him, and to love the name of the LORD, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant; 7 Even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted upon mine altar; for mine house shall be called an house of prayer for all people.

Ezek 20:12 Moreover also I gave them my sabbaths, to be a sign between me and them, that they might know that I am the LORD that sanctify them. 13 But the house of Israel rebelled against me in the wilderness: they walked not in my statutes, and they despised my judgments, which if a man do, he shall even live in them; and my Sabbaths they greatly polluted: then I said, I would pour out my fury upon them in the wilderness, to consume them. 14 But I wrought for my name's sake, that it should not be polluted before the heathen, in whose sight I brought them out. 15 Yet also I lifted up my hand unto them in the wilderness, that I would not bring them into the land which I had given them, flowing with milk and honey, which is the glory of all lands; 16 Because they despised my judgments, and walked not in my statutes, but polluted my sabbaths: for their heart went after their idols. 17 Nevertheless mine eye spared them from destroying them, neither did I make an end of them in the wilderness. 18 But I said unto their children in the wilderness, Walk ye not in the statutes of your fathers, neither observe their judgments, nor defile yourselves with their idols: 19 I am the LORD your God; walk in my statutes, and keep my judgments, and do them; 20 And hallow my sabbaths; and they shall be a sign between me and you, that ye may know that I am the LORD your God. 21 Notwithstanding the children rebelled against me: they walked not in my statutes, neither kept my judgments to do them, which if a man do, he shall even live in them; they polluted my sabbaths: then I said, I would pour out my fury upon them, to accomplish my anger against them in the wilderness. 22 Nevertheless I withdrew mine hand, and wrought for my name's sake, that it should not be polluted in the sight of the heathen, in whose sight I brought them forth. 23 I lifted up mine hand unto them also in the wilderness, that I would scatter them among the heathen, and disperse them through the countries; 24 Because they had not executed my judgments, but had despised my statutes, and had polluted my sabbaths, and their eyes were after their fathers' idols.

Ezek 22: 8 Thou hast despised mine holy things, and hast profaned my sabbaths.

Ezek 22: 26 Her priests have violated my law, and have profaned mine holy things: they have put no difference between the holy and profane, neither have they shewed difference between the unclean and the clean, and have hid their eyes from my sabbaths, and I am profaned among them.

Ezek 23:38 Moreover this they have done unto me: they have defiled my sanctuary in the same day, and have profaned my sabbaths.

Ezek 44:24 And in controversy they shall stand in judgment; and they shall judge it according to my judgments: and they shall keep my laws and my statutes in all mine assemblies; and they shall hallow my sabbaths.

Neh 9:13-14 13 Thou camest down also upon mount Sinai, and spakest with them from heaven, and gavest them right judgments, and true laws, good statutes and commandments: 14 And madest known unto them thy holy sabbath, and commandedst them precepts, statutes, and laws, by the hand of Moses thy servant:

Lev 23:3 Six days shall work be done: but the seventh day is the sabbath of rest, an holy convocation; ye shall do no work therein: it is the sabbath of the LORD in all your dwellings.


Mat 12:6  But I say unto you, That in this place is one greater than the temple. 7 But if ye had known what this meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice, ye would not have condemned the guiltless. 8 For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day.

There is no such a thing as the Jewish Sabbath. There were no Jews when God blessed and sanctified the day. After He established the Jewish nation, God gave His sabbath to His chosen people to keep. He also pronounced a blessing upon all who would keep His sabbath during the days of literal Israel of old. He also foretold the keeping of the sabbath by the Gentiles in prophecy concerning their salvation through Christ our Lord. He also foretold the observance of His sabbath in the new heaven and new earth. Jesus also prophesied of His followers keeping His sabbath in the future as the end approached.

The scriptures never refer to the sabbath as the Jewish sabbath. It is and has always been God's sabbath. Those who cannot or will not admit of this basic truth, simply cannot see the truth.















Offline GB

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Re: The Jewish Sabbath .......
« Reply #38 on: Fri Jan 31, 2020 - 17:28:48 »
 author=RB link=topic=105259.msg1055155453#msg1055155453 date=1580469904]

Quote
Every person that has ever lived promotes their understanding of God, for or against for the most part, either by their speaking, writing, or their lifestyle, even more so on such forums.

Yes, As with Zechariahs, and the Pharisees.



 Romans 3:20-25~"Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight:

There is a religion preaching to the world that this means "Loving God, and Loving our neighbor" and all that hangs on it..

I have tried to show you what the Word of God actually preaches in this regard, but you must omit these Word's in order to preserve your own religion.

In the "LAW" there was a covenant God made with Levi on behalf of the Children of Israel. In this "law", that Abraham didn't have, there were Priesthood "Works" REQUIRED for atonement and justification of sins.

Moses said "If a person sins, he shall take an sacrifice to the Levite Priest that will perform sacrificial "Works of the Law" to cleanse this man's sins. There was no other way to be justified. This is Biblical Fact.

If I were to follow your religion, I would have to believe that Moses said "if a man sins, he shall not commit adultery and his sins are forgiven. Or, "if a man sins, he shall keep the Sabbath Holy and his sins are forgiven. You preach that these are the "Works of the Law" for the remission of sins in the Old Covenant.

But this is untrue. There were "works of the Law" specifically designed for the atonement and justification of sins. These "Works of the Law" were to be performed exclusively by a Levite, who was appointed by another Levite to the Priesthood's office. This is the Covenant God made with the Children of Israel that Abraham didn't have.

The Jews had built a religion around the Priesthood as Jesus points out in Matt. 23. They refused to accept the Promise of Christ in Jer. 31, nor could they accept that Jesus was this Christ that made the promise.

AS a result, they continued to promote and require these same "Works of the law" for the remission of sins, telling the new converts that they needed to keep the Law of Moses, and have these "works of the Law" performed before their sins could be forgiven.

Quote
for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

The Law is designed to show God's definition of Holy, Clean, Righteousness, and unholy, unclean, and unrighteousness. The "Works of the Law" was a shadow of the Christ's sacrifice for us, "ADDED" to God's definition of sin because of sin. These "Works of the Law" for atonement were to be in effect until the Seed came.

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But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

After Jesus came, and became our High Priest, changing this Priesthood and it's "works of the Law" forever, we can see how Abraham was justified "Without these "works of the Law". God called Him and Abraham listened. "today, if you hear His voice, HARDEN NOT YOUR OWN HEART".



Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe:

Abram listened and obeyed God, believing, not that God's instruction was a burden, and "yoke of bondage" as the serpent, and many other religious voices preach. But because when he knew God, he glorified Him as God. Just as our perfect example, and author of our salvation did. "And being found in the fashion of a man, He became obedient unto death".

Quote
for there is no difference: For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus."

Justified by Grace, not by bringing a turtle dove to the Levite Priest who then performed "Works of the Law" for remission of sins. WE have a New and Better way. Now instead of relying on corrupt human preachers for our "instruction in righteousness", we can go straight to God's Word and absorb it our self.

And we no longer have to take our offering of animals to the Levite Priest who would then perform sacrificial "works of the Law"  for the justification of our sins, We offer ourselves to God, a living sacrifice. We offer the sacrifice of humility and self denial, and we "Yield" ourselves servant's to God and HIS definition of clean, Holy, and Righteousness, no longer depending on our own definition, as we did before when we were all "Children of Disobedience".

Since you have been convinced that Paul didn't understand the Levitical Priesthood "Works of the Law" for remission of sins, you preach that Paul's is talking about the 2 greatest Commandments and all that hangs on them as being the "Works of the Law" the Jews were trying to force on the New Converts. This doctrine is absurd in many ways. First, it implies that the Jews were keep God's Commandments, which Jesus contradicts in EVERY WORD HE used to describe them. They were trying to be justified by "Works of the Law" of a Priesthood which had become old, and obsolete. A Priesthood which was taken over by the Christ Himself.

 Because of this, you believe that any obedience by choice is rejecting Grace. You even imply that humbling myself, and Yielding my self by being obedient to God is actually declaring that God needs help in saving me.

A more foolish declaration would be hard to find. When the Biblical Truth is without repentance, and obedience, there is no Salvation. As Paul also states. Rom. 2:13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified."

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GB, NOT based on some unseen standard unknown to humans in general~it IS witness by the LAW and the prophets! This shows that your understanding of the law of God is without spiritual understanding, for I NEVER hear you say much of CHRIST and his obedience, but it is always based on MAN'S WORKS in order to enter into eternal life.

Just as I said you believe. Even though the command to submit to God's Laws comes from HIM, not man. And the instruction to "choose Him" is an instruction given by HIM, not man. And the Laws we are told to obey over and over and over and over and over, are God's Laws, not mans.

And yet, when a man listens to God's Words and does them as Jesus did, and instructed, like Abraham did, you call this obedience "Man's Work".

The hypocrisy of this teaching is so glaring to me that I have a hard time even imagining a person can not see it. And yet, you can not.

Quote
Quote from: GB on: Yesterday at 18:38:10

these studies really solidify my understanding by exercise of use. And your reaction to simply Biblical Truth are the Prophesies of the scriptures coming alive in my lifetime. It is truly a humbling experience.

Your words in this quote should be used to define DECEPTION~and I might add a STRONG DELUSION per 2nd Thessalonians 2.

2 Thess. 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Red, God's Laws are not "Beggarly Elements" and Paul never says they are. The "works of the Law" that the Jews were promoting to the New Converts for justification of sins was not the 2 greatest commandments in the law, but the Atonement Laws ADDED "till the Seed should come. And yet it is you, not me, who preach such things.

Nothing you can say or believe will make these two religious doctrines of yours truth. And with these falsehoods, or "Leaven" as Jesus called them, as your foundation, everything you build on them and preach is untrue. There is no truth in them at all.

This is the "ad hominem" attacks as you and Michael teach, that Jesus gave to the Mainstream Preachers of HIS Time.

It is God's Love, that inspires me to spend so much time trying to have this Biblical discussion. But just as the Pharisees, your religious doctrines and traditions are more important than the truth of scripture. My hope is that someday, before it's too late, that you will believe the warning of the Christ, and examine your own preaching, instead of judging God's Word as unworthy of your respect.




Offline GB

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Re: The Jewish Sabbath .......
« Reply #39 on: Fri Jan 31, 2020 - 17:43:15 »
 author=Amo link=topic=105259.msg1055155475#msg1055155475 date=1580494215]


Quote
There is no such a thing as the Jewish Sabbath. There were no Jews when God blessed and sanctified the day. After He established the Jewish nation, God gave His sabbath to His chosen people to keep. He also pronounced a blessing upon all who would keep His sabbath during the days of literal Israel of old. He also foretold the keeping of the sabbath by the Gentiles in prophecy concerning their salvation through Christ our Lord. He also foretold the observance of His sabbath in the new heaven and new earth. Jesus also prophesied of His followers keeping His sabbath in the future as the end approached.

The scriptures never refer to the sabbath as the Jewish sabbath. It is and has always been God's sabbath. Those who cannot or will not admit of this basic truth, simply cannot see the truth.

You are mistaken my friend. There was most certainly a Jewish Sabbath taught for centuries. It wasn't God's Sabbath, it was the Jewish Sabbath. In it a man couldn't take a walk and pick an apple or ear of corn to eat.. This was not God's Sabbath.

The Jews had despised and corrupted and polluted God's Sabbath for years, and they teach this same Jewish sabbath to this day.

I hope you might consider this truth.



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Re: The Jewish Sabbath .......
« Reply #39 on: Fri Jan 31, 2020 - 17:43:15 »



Offline Michael2012

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Re: The Jewish Sabbath .......
« Reply #40 on: Sat Feb 01, 2020 - 00:33:58 »
Quote
There were "works of the Law" specifically designed for the atonement and justification of sins.

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And we no longer have to take our offering of animals to the Levite Priest who would then perform sacrificial "works of the Law"  for the justification of our sins, We offer ourselves to God, a living sacrifice.

Quote
The "works of the Law" that the Jews were promoting to the New Converts for justification of sins was not the 2 greatest commandments in the law, but the Atonement Laws ADDED "till the Seed should come.

For the nth time, there is not such thing as justification of sins.

There is no scripture that justifies sin. God never justifies sin. God does not justify sin.

Offline Michael2012

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Re: The Jewish Sabbath .......
« Reply #41 on: Sat Feb 01, 2020 - 02:33:47 »
There were "works of the Law" specifically designed for the atonement and justification of sins.

The Law is designed to show God's definition of Holy, Clean, Righteousness, and unholy, unclean, and unrighteousness. The "Works of the Law" was a shadow of the Christ's sacrifice for us, "ADDED" to God's definition of sin because of sin. These "Works of the Law" for atonement were to be in effect until the Seed came.

What Law are you talking about here? It seems you speak of it as referring to the commandments and judgements of God that He gave the children of God. Well, that would make every working that pertains to it then be the "works of the Law". Do you then here contradict your definition of "works of the Law" as only pertaining to the atonement of sin?
 
Quote from: GB
God called Him and Abraham listened.

You mention of Abraham's calling and obedience. Of his obedience you speak well. Yet you don't ever speak about Abraham before he was called. It seems that all of these things about Abraham are insignificant to you. But of course you know too well that they are not, for all scriptures is holy and of well meaning. You had been silent about his former life. Don't you acknowledge the truth that Abraham dwelt in Ur, with his father Terah and his kindred, and were worshiping other gods? You don't talk about his having been chosen by God. Don't you acknowledge the truth that he was chosen by God, and that was at a time when he was yet a sinner? You also don't talk about God's unmerited favor upon Abraham, nor God's will and purpose in him, concerning God's election of him. Don't you acknowledge the truth about all these concerning Abraham?

Let me ask you some simple questions. I hope you'll have enough courage to face them and answer them. A direct answer would be enough.
 
Why Abraham was chosen by God, was it because of any work that he have done or was it because he have faith?

Which came first, God's election and call to Abraham or Abraham's faith?
Which came first, God's promise to Abraham or Abraham's obedience?
Which came first, Abraham's faith or his obedience?

What was accounted to Abraham for righteousness, was it faith or work?

If you know the right answers to those questions, you will somehow have an idea of God's salvation, though that is only a glimpse of it.

Do you consider Abraham's election by God and His promises to him, to mean that he have been saved by God?
« Last Edit: Sat Feb 01, 2020 - 06:17:18 by Michael2012 »

Offline GB

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Re: The Jewish Sabbath .......
« Reply #42 on: Sat Feb 01, 2020 - 07:45:57 »


For the nth time, there is not such thing as justification of sins.

There is no scripture that justifies sin. God never justifies sin. God does not justify sin.

Atonement or cleansing of sins Justifies a man. When his sins are forgiven, and completely forgotten by God, it is "Just as if" the man did not sin in the first place.

The issue Paul was having with the Mainstream Preachers of his time was how are sins cleansed and forgotten by God?

Was it by Following the requirements of God to take an animal to the Levite Priest, for him to perform these Priesthood duties, that didn't exist in Abraham's time, for the atonement of sins thus cleansing the man and making him righteous, "just as if" the man had not sinned at all?

Or had these "LAWS" for justification of men grown old, and become obsolete?




Offline Michael2012

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Re: The Jewish Sabbath .......
« Reply #43 on: Sat Feb 01, 2020 - 08:10:40 »
Quote from: Michael
For the nth time, there is not such thing as justification of sins.

There is no scripture that justifies sin. God never justifies sin. God does not justify sin.
Atonement or cleansing of sins Justifies a man. When his sins are forgiven, and completely forgotten by God, it is "Just as if" the man did not sin in the first place.

The issue Paul was having with the Mainstream Preachers of his time was how are sins cleansed and forgotten by God?

Was it by Following the requirements of God to take an animal to the Levite Priest, for him to perform these Priesthood duties, that didn't exist in Abraham's time, for the atonement of sins thus cleansing the man and making him righteous, "just as if" the man had not sinned at all?

Or had these "LAWS" for justification of men grown old, and become obsolete?

What you say is not justification of sin, but justification of the sinner.

There is not such thing as justification of sins. Just as I said, God never justifies sin. God does not justify sin. Sin is never justified, because sin is sin, and will always be sin. To say there is, or even speak of justification of sin, is erroneous. I think that any one who teaches this would be considered a false teacher by many in Christianity.

Was the Christian's sin justified by Christ or was it the Christian who was justified by Christ?

Would you be corrected GB?

Offline GB

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Re: The Jewish Sabbath .......
« Reply #44 on: Sat Feb 01, 2020 - 10:25:46 »
 author=Michael2012 link=topic=105259.msg1055155495#msg1055155495 date=1580546027]
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What Law are you talking about here? It seems you speak of it as referring to the commandments and judgements of God that He gave the children of God. Well, that would make every working that pertains to it then be the "works of the Law". Do you then here contradict your definition of "works of the Law" as only pertaining to the atonement of sin?

But Michael, if you had been taught about the Covenant God made with Levi on Israel's behalf, you would know there was a Law "ADDED" to God's Law He gave to Abraham which defines sin.

This Law, which did not define sin, was specifically designed to cleanse the sins of His people until "After those days", thus making them clean, "just as if" they had not sinned at all. These are the "DEEDS" of the Law the Jews were still forcing on the New Converts, the topic of this entire chapter.

Your confusion is the result of your refusal to separate the Laws which define sin, from the "deeds of the Priesthood Law" which lead to the justification of men who had sinned.

As a result your entire religious position stands on the falsehood that the Jews were trying to get the New Converts to Love God and Love your neighbor, and all that hangs on them, which show us God's definition of sin.

Loving God, or loving our neighbor, was not EVER a "DEED" of the Law designated to cleanse the sins of man for a time. Moses did not say "If a man sins, let him perform the deed of the law "though shall not kill" and his sins are forgiven and forgotten just as if the man had not sinned. Surely even you must see this truth.

But Moses did say to the man that sinned, "take your best animal to the Levite Priest, according to the Covenant God made with Levi on Israel's behalf, to perform "works or deeds of this law" to cleanse his sin.

Thus we have two Laws in question here as Paul explains.

Rom. 3:26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works?

But you preach to the world that there is only one "LAW" in the Old Covenant. That there isn't a difference between the Covenant God made with Levi on Israel's behalf, and the command to Love God with all your heart. My point, and the very reason I am on this forum, is to point out the difference between what religion you promote, and what Paul actually taught. Paul knew there was a difference between the Law of Works for justification, and the LAW of Faith for justification.

 Loving God and your neighbor, and all that God wrote to define HIS definition of these things is not the Law of "works" but a Law of Faith.

 "Nay: but by the law of faith. 28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by (the Law of) faith without the deeds of the law (of works)."

2 Laws, one, the Law of Faith, which Abraham had, that defines sins, and the other, Law of Works, which was not "ADDED" until 430 later for the atonement of transgressions of the Law of Faith..

Jesus confirms this when He rebuked the Pharisees for honoring the "Priesthood Law" of tithing, but omitted the Law of Faith.

Matt. 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

I have said this before, and will say it again. Until you accept what is written, and come to terms with the Covenant God made with Levi on Israel's behalf, you will never understand the difference between the Covenants the Christ speaks of.

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You mention of Abraham's calling and obedience. Of his obedience you speak well. Yet you don't ever speak about Abraham before he was called. It seems that all of these things about Abraham are insignificant to you. But of course you know too well that they are not, for all scriptures is holy and of well meaning. You had been silent about his former life.

You are again full of BS. Abraham had fallen prey to the religions of the land just as you have.. In this example, God told Abraham the exact thing Jesus said to the entire world. I have said this over and over, it's just that you are here to promote your own religion, you don't see much of anything else.

Gen. 12:1 Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee:

Mark 8:34 And when he had called the people unto him with his disciples also, he said unto them, Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

I asked you, and several others, what the difference was between these two commands once, and you refused to answer as they also refused..

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Don't you acknowledge the truth that Abraham dwelt in Ur, with his father Terah and his kindred, and were worshiping other gods? You don't talk about his having been chosen by God.

I just pointed out to you recently that there is no difference between "Chosen" by God, or "known" by God. Addressing this very thing. I went into detail with you and Red about the calling of Abraham.

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Don't you acknowledge the truth that he was chosen by God, and that was at a time when he was yet a sinner? You also don't talk about God's unmerited favor upon Abraham, nor God's will and purpose in him, concerning God's election of him. Don't you acknowledge the truth about all these concerning Abraham?

I have addressed these issues countless times. Your line of questioning is foolishness.

God's Favor upon Abraham was not unmerited as you preach to the world. God Himself said it was because Abraham obeyed that God showed Favor on Him. And indeed it is written;

 James 2: 22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. 24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

And Again;

Rom. 2:6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

So the very foundation of your religion, is once again built on another lie that God's friendship with Abraham was "Unmerited".

The whole purpose of atonement is justification Michael. As I have said over and over. Abraham was a sinner, living in the religions of the land he was born into. And as with every man, God calls him. Sometimes in person as in the days of old, and sometimes through His Word as it is today.

When Abraham denied himself, and "yielded" himself to God, God forgave him and cleansed his sin. He was justified by Faith in God, not by the "Deeds of the Law" of atonement added 430 years later.

I'll answer your never ending questions, in another post.


Offline GB

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Re: The Jewish Sabbath .......
« Reply #45 on: Sat Feb 01, 2020 - 10:39:52 »
 author=Michael2012 link=topic=105259.msg1055155495#msg1055155495 date=1580546027]

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Let me ask you some simple questions. I hope you'll have enough courage to face them and answer them. A direct answer would be enough.
 
Why Abraham was chosen by God, was it because of any work that he have done or was it because he have faith?

Faith without works is dead. Is this not Bible 101? Jesus pointed this out in another verse you do not have courage enough to consider. "Why do you call ME Lord, and do not the things I say?" So God chose Abraham "BECAUSE" Abraham obeyed, which is the only true "work of Faith".

So I answered your question, answer mine.

Is the Christ that said "Why do you call ME Lord, and do not the things I say" the same Christ which said to Abram, "Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee: Did Abram obey or not?


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Which came first, God's election and call to Abraham or Abraham's faith?

It depends on whose perspective you are speaking to. If you are speaking to God's Perspective, God knows the end from the beginning. God knows who will listen to Him and who will not before He calls them, because according to scriptures, He has already seen their choice. So God chose Abram from the foundation of the world because HE knew Abram would obey Him, because in God's Realm, Abram already did. And God clearly tells us why HE chose Abram, "Because Abram obeyed".

But if you are speaking to Abram's perspective, He didn't know any of these things. He made a choice to follow God knowing it would anger those idolaters he had lived with. He didn't know where he was going, or how he was going to get there. He just bowed himself to his creator and obeyed.

So to Abram, God's call came first, then the choice to believe. "So Abram departed, as the LORD had spoken unto him;"

I have answered your question, so answer mine.

In your religion, do you believe God lied to Isaac when He told him why He blessed Abraham?

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Which came first, God's promise to Abraham or Abraham's obedience?

Neither came first Michael. Nice try. God's Command came first, as with Eve. "Today, if you hear His Voice, harden not your hearts". Had Abram chosen to stay in the religion he was born into, there would have been no promise.

Gen. 12:1 Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee: 2 And I will make of thee a great nation,

There is the command. "So Abram departed, as the LORD had spoken unto him;" there is Abram's answer.

The implication of your religion that Abram could have rejected this command from God and still be blessed is foolishness and deceitful. And God's Word in it's entirely never teaches such hogwash. It teaches just the opposite.

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Which came first, Abraham's faith or his obedience?

According to Scriptures, Faith and obedience are the same thing. One can not exist without the other. Abram's obedience showed his faith in God. Abram's faith was shown by his obedience to God.

Either way, the Commandment to Abram came first. Without the Command, there is no faith, and there is no obedience, there is no blessing.

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What was accounted to Abraham for righteousness, was it faith or work?

Again, one can not exist without the other. The Command came first. Abram's choice following the command determined his righteousness, or lack thereof.

James 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? (The Command)

22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works (Obeying the command) was faith made perfect?

23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

Here is the exchange from God's Own Word's.

Gen. 22:16 And said, By myself have I sworn, saith the LORD, for because thou hast done this thing, and hast not withheld thy son, thine only son:

17 That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies;

18 And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.

24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

But if I follow you and Red's religion, I am forced to destroy these Word's of God and omit them completely from my understanding. Why? Because your religion does not promote the same message as the God of the Bible. Do you care? The Pharisees didn't, the wicked kings of Israel didn't. Cain didn't. And from your posts I see you don't either.


But regardless of your purposeful refusals to accept these Word's of God,  the Command comes before any of these things. As the Christ teaches.

Duet. 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

I have answered yet another of your endless questions. Now answer mine.
 
In your religion, did Abram choose to trust God? Or did God Make Abram HIS Friend?

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If you know the right answers to those questions, you will somehow have an idea of God's salvation, though that is only a glimpse of it.

You have exalted yourself as Judge of God's Laws and Word's. Choosing which ones are worthy of your respect, and which ones are not. I do not accept your judgment as I have found it lacking on so many fronts. So your judgment of the "Right" answer is your judgment. If I answer the way your religion preaches, I will have a glimpse in how you see God, not how God defines Himself.

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Do you consider Abraham's election by God and His promises to him, to mean that he have been saved by God?

Heb. 11:39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith,[b] received not the promise[/b]: 40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

1 Tim. 6:15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords; 16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.

Abraham is resting in hope, as is David.

Ps. 16:8 I have set the LORD always before me: because he is at my right hand, I shall not be moved. 9 Therefore my heart is glad, and my glory rejoiceth: my flesh also shall rest in hope. 10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell;(Grave) neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. 11 Thou wilt shew me the path of life: in thy presence is fulness of joy; at thy right hand there are pleasures for evermore.

Rom. 8:21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. 23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body. 24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?

I believe that Abraham died in Hope that God would deliver his dead body from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. And all of those who merited God's Election are "waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body".

Has this happened yet for Abraham? "MANY" religions preach it has, but the scriptures say he is still waiting, as am I, for the return of our savior.

Offline Amo

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Re: The Jewish Sabbath .......
« Reply #46 on: Sat Feb 01, 2020 - 10:41:38 »
author=Amo link=topic=105259.msg1055155475#msg1055155475 date=1580494215]


You are mistaken my friend. There was most certainly a Jewish Sabbath taught for centuries. It wasn't God's Sabbath, it was the Jewish Sabbath. In it a man couldn't take a walk and pick an apple or ear of corn to eat.. This was not God's Sabbath.

The Jews had despised and corrupted and polluted God's Sabbath for years, and they teach this same Jewish sabbath to this day.

I hope you might consider this truth.

Eze 20:12  Moreover also I gave them my sabbaths, to be a sign between me and them, that they might know that I am the LORD that sanctify them. 13 But the house of Israel rebelled against me in the wilderness: they walked not in my statutes, and they despised my judgments, which if a man do, he shall even live in them; and my sabbaths they greatly polluted: then I said, I would pour out my fury upon them in the wilderness, to consume them. 14 But I wrought for my name's sake, that it should not be polluted before the heathen, in whose sight I brought them out. 15 Yet also I lifted up my hand unto them in the wilderness, that I would not bring them into the land which I had given them, flowing with milk and honey, which is the glory of all lands; 16 Because they despised my judgments, and walked not in my statutes, but polluted my sabbaths: for their heart went after their idols. 17 Nevertheless mine eye spared them from destroying them, neither did I make an end of them in the wilderness. 18 But I said unto their children in the wilderness, Walk ye not in the statutes of your fathers, neither observe their judgments, nor defile yourselves with their idols: 19 I am the LORD your God; walk in my statutes, and keep my judgments, and do them; 20 And hallow my sabbaths; and they shall be a sign between me and you, that ye may know that I am the LORD your God. 21 Notwithstanding the children rebelled against me: they walked not in my statutes, neither kept my judgments to do them, which if a man do, he shall even live in them; they polluted my sabbaths: then I said, I would pour out my fury upon them, to accomplish my anger against them in the wilderness. 22 Nevertheless I withdrew mine hand, and wrought for my name's sake, that it should not be polluted in the sight of the heathen, in whose sight I brought them forth. 23 I lifted up mine hand unto them also in the wilderness, that I would scatter them among the heathen, and disperse them through the countries; 24 Because they had not executed my judgments, but had despised my statutes, and had polluted my sabbaths, and their eyes were after their fathers' idols.

I understand your perspective, but disagree with your conclusion. God gave Israel His sabbath. They never claimed another one, or taught anyone not to observe God's, but rather polluted God's as the above scriptures reveal. Only those who claim to worship the true God can pollute the things of God  by either neglecting that which is specified by God, or adding things that be of this world to God's commands. The Jews tried to accuse our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ of breaking God's sabbath according to their polluted version of the same, He rightly rejected these abominations, and taught real sabbath observance. Sunday keepers today have polluted God's sanctuary or temple of the new covenant, which temple we are, by bringing a man made sacred day in to replace God's sabbath.

Jer 7:30 For the children of Judah have done evil in my sight, saith the LORD: they have set their abominations in the house which is called by my name, to pollute it.

Eze 44:5 And the LORD said unto me, Son of man, mark well, and behold with thine eyes, and hear with thine ears all that I say unto thee concerning all the ordinances of the house of the LORD, and all the laws thereof; and mark well the entering in of the house, with every going forth of the sanctuary. 6 And thou shalt say to the rebellious, even to the house of Israel, Thus saith the Lord GOD; O ye house of Israel, let it suffice you of all your abominations, 7 In that ye have brought into my sanctuary strangers, uncircumcised in heart, and uncircumcised in flesh, to be in my sanctuary, to pollute it, even my house, when ye offer my bread, the fat and the blood, and they have broken my covenant because of all your abominations. 8 And ye have not kept the charge of mine holy things: but ye have set keepers of my charge in my sanctuary for yourselves. 9 Thus saith the Lord GOD; No stranger, uncircumcised in heart, nor uncircumcised in flesh, shall enter into my sanctuary, of any stranger that is among the children of Israel.


When apostate "Christianity" hopped in bed with emperors and kings who brought all their unconverted citizens into the church which is the new covenant body of Christ and temple of God, they polluted God's sanctuary once again with unconverted hearts and the abominable practices they brought with them. Sunday sacredness is among these abominations, introduced by a sun worshiping Roman emperor who embraced "Christianity" as a political ploy to unite "Christians" and heathen together under his rule. These who profess to worship God through Jesus Christ while bringing numerous abominations into the new covenant temple and polluting the sanctuary of God. These who do abandon God's sabbath and establish another day according to their chosen abominations. Thus must the sanctuary be cleansed of all such before our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ returns to redeem His own. Therefore need all of God's true followers in Christ flee from BABYLON THE GREAT, through whom the greater part of these abominations entered the ranks of those who would compose God's new covenant temple.

Rev 17:1 And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great whore that sitteth upon many waters: 2 With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication. 3 So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns. 4 And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication: 5 And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH. 6 And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration..............

Rev 18:1 And after these things I saw another angel come down from heaven, having great power; and the earth was lightened with his glory. 2 And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird. 3 For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies. 4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues. 5 For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities. 6 Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double. 7 How much she hath glorified herself, and lived deliciously, so much torment and sorrow give her: for she saith in her heart, I sit a queen, and am no widow, and shall see no sorrow. 8 Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire: for strong is the Lord God who judgeth her.


Now is the time for all professors of Christ to separate themselves from all of the abominations new covenant Israel has brought in and polluted God's sanctuary with. We are no better than the Israel of old, we have repeated their sins. Let us repent, separate ourselves from institutions and practices which are of this world and not of God, and seek to cleanse our hearts and minds that the new covenant temple of God may be cleansed as well. The spirit is willing but the flesh is weak. God forgive us, and strengthen us to do so for the glory and honor of your name.

Joh 2:19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up. 20 Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days? 21 But he spake of the temple of his body. 22 When therefore he was risen from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this unto them; and they believed the scripture, and the word which Jesus had said.

1Co 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? 17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

1Co 6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? 20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.

2Co 6:14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness? 15 And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel? 16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. 17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you, 18 And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.

Eph 2:11  Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; 12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: 13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. 14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; 15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; 16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: 17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh. 18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father. 19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; 20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; 21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: 22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.










Offline Michael2012

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Re: The Jewish Sabbath .......
« Reply #47 on: Sat Feb 01, 2020 - 13:36:53 »
What Law are you talking about here? It seems you speak of it as referring to the commandments and judgements of God that He gave the children of God. Well, that would make every working that pertains to it then be the "works of the Law". Do you then here contradict your definition of "works of the Law" as only pertaining to the atonement of sin?
But Michael, if you had been taught about the Covenant God made with Levi on Israel's behalf, you would know there was a Law "ADDED" to God's Law He gave to Abraham which defines sin.

This Law, which did not define sin, was specifically designed to cleanse the sins of His people until "After those days", thus making them clean, "just as if" they had not sinned at all. These are the "DEEDS" of the Law the Jews were still forcing on the New Converts, the topic of this entire chapter.

Your confusion is the result of your refusal to separate the Laws which define sin, from the "deeds of the Priesthood Law" which lead to the justification of men who had sinned.

Who do you suppose gave these priesthood laws? God or man? Yes, God did. Now are they man's laws or God's laws? Yes, God's law. Are they good or evil? Yes, they are just, and holy, and good.

I noticed. It seems you now learned that there is no justification of sin. I don't see you mention that again. That's good.

Quote from: GB
As a result your entire religious position stands on the falsehood that the Jews were trying to get the New Converts to Love God and Love your neighbor, and all that hangs on them, which show us God's definition of sin.

Why don't you stop creating straw man? Why, do you want me to be that straw man?  I'm sorry to disappoint you. I am not that straw man.

Quote from: GB
Loving God, or loving our neighbor, was not EVER a "DEED" of the Law designated to cleanse the sins of man for a time. Moses did not say "If a man sins, let him perform the deed of the law "though shall not kill" and his sins are forgiven and forgotten just as if the man had not sinned. Surely even you must see this truth.

Who is saying all that GB? Perhaps your straw man again? Are you hearing voices?

Quote from: GB
But Moses did say to the man that sinned, "take your best animal to the Levite Priest, according to the Covenant God made with Levi on Israel's behalf, to perform "works or deeds of this law" to cleanse his sin.

Actually it was God who gave commandment to the children of Israel pertaining that, through Moses.

Quote from: GB
Thus we have two Laws in question here as Paul explains.

Rom. 3:26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works?

But you preach to the world that there is only one "LAW" in the Old Covenant. That there isn't a difference between the Covenant God made with Levi on Israel's behalf, and the command to Love God with all your heart. My point, and the very reason I am on this forum, is to point out the difference between what religion you promote, and what Paul actually taught. Paul knew there was a difference between the Law of Works for justification, and the LAW of Faith for justification.

Regarding the Old covenant, does scriptures speak of "book of the two laws" or "book of the law"?

And how could you even point out the difference between what I say, and what Paul actually taught when apparently you don't understand what either of us is saying concerning the Law that God gave to Israel through Moses?

Regarding the law of works and the law of faith, of course, Paul knew. In fact He was the one who wrote about it in scriptures so that we have knowledge of it.

Quote from: GB
Loving God and your neighbor, and all that God wrote to define HIS definition of these things is not the Law of "works" but a Law of Faith.
I don't seem to understand your opinion.
 
Quote from: GB
"Nay: but by the law of faith. 28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by (the Law of) faith without the deeds of the law (of works)."

And your inserts changes the scriptures. You change it to say man is justified by the law of faith instead of by faith. Then you make what, deeds of the law of works? What does that even mean?

Quote from: GB
2 Laws, one, the Law of Faith, which Abraham had, that defines sins, and the other, Law of Works, which was not "ADDED" until 430 later for the atonement of transgressions of the Law of Faith..

Yes, 2 laws, one is law of faith and the other is law of works. But the law of faith is not what you say it is here, as that defines sin. And the law of works is not what you say it is, as that was "ADDED" for the atonement of transgressions of the Law of Faith. If that were so, then Romans 3:27 would be something like this:

'Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of the law for the atonement of transgressions of the Law of Faith? Nay: but by the law that defines sin.'

Makes no sense, does it not? And what would that make of Romans 3:31?

Romans 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

Well, you can find that out yourself.

Quote from: GB
Jesus confirms this when He rebuked the Pharisees for honoring the "Priesthood Law" of tithing, but omitted the Law of Faith.

Matt. 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

Of course Jesus does not confirm what you said.

Quote from: GB
I have said this before, and will say it again. Until you accept what is written, and come to terms with the Covenant God made with Levi on Israel's behalf, you will never understand the difference between the Covenants the Christ speaks of.

You don't have to say that over and over so not to make the same mistake over and over. Besides I'll choose what scriptures say each and every time regarding that.

Quote from: GB
Quote from: Michael
You mention of Abraham's calling and obedience. Of his obedience you speak well. Yet you don't ever speak about Abraham before he was called. It seems that all of these things about Abraham are insignificant to you. But of course you know too well that they are not, for all scriptures is holy and of well meaning. You had been silent about his former life.
You are again full of BS. Abraham had fallen prey to the religions of the land just as you have.. In this example, God told Abraham the exact thing Jesus said to the entire world. I have said this over and over, it's just that you are here to promote your own religion, you don't see much of anything else.

And you don't forget to put your AD HOMINEM, just like it were a signature.
 
Quote from: GB
Gen. 12:1 Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee:

Mark 8:34 And when he had called the people unto him with his disciples also, he said unto them, Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

I asked you, and several others, what the difference was between these two commands once, and you refused to answer as they also refused..

When did you asked me? I don't know of any. Give me the link to that post, if any.

That God told Abraham the exact thing Jesus said to the entire world, with reference to Gen.12:1 and Mark 8:34 is what you want of them to appear. 

Quote from: GB
Quote from: Michael
Don't you acknowledge the truth that Abraham dwelt in Ur, with his father Terah and his kindred, and were worshiping other gods? You don't talk about his having been chosen by God.
I just pointed out to you recently that there is no difference between "Chosen" by God, or "known" by God. Addressing this very thing. I went into detail with you and Red about the calling of Abraham.

Yes you did point out that there is no difference between "Chosen" by God, or "known" by God, when you have ignored Gen. 18:19 Hebrew Text actually says. So?

What does that had to do with the truth that Abraham dwelt in Ur, with his father Terah and his kindred, and were worshiping other gods, before he was chosen and called by God? 

Quote from: GB
Quote from: Michael
Don't you acknowledge the truth that he was chosen by God, and that was at a time when he was yet a sinner? You also don't talk about God's unmerited favor upon Abraham, nor God's will and purpose in him, concerning God's election of him. Don't you acknowledge the truth about all these concerning Abraham?
I have addressed these issues countless times. Your line of questioning is foolishness.
Of course they are foolishness to someone who takes these things as insignificant. Why? Because these things are truth? Because these truths refutes his teachings and doctrines. 

Quote from: GB
God's Favor upon Abraham was not unmerited as you preach to the world. God Himself said it was because Abraham obeyed that God showed Favor on Him. And indeed it is written;

If I'm not mistaken you are referring to the following scriptures:

Gen. 26:2 And the Lord appeared unto him, and said, Go not down into Egypt; dwell in the land which I shall tell thee of:

3 Sojourn in this land, and I will be with thee, and will bless thee; for unto thee, and unto thy seed, I will give all these countries, and I will perform the oath which I sware unto Abraham thy father;

4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;

5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.


That is because you don't acknowledge what scriptures says of Abraham before God had chosen and called him. And not wanting to let go of your doctrine that God had not chosen Abraham by grace but by his obedient work. That Abraham, as a matter of wage because of his work, that God had chosen him. So, that even the scriptures that pertain to Isaac, you apply to Abraham. And so, that even the scriptures which speaks of why God performs the oath which God sware unto Abraham, interprets it as speaking of why God had chosen Abraham. That's what happens when one don't acknowledge what scriptures says of Abraham before God had chosen and called him.

Quote from: GB
James 2: 22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. 24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

And Again;

Rom. 2:6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

So the very foundation of your religion, is once again built on another lie that God's friendship with Abraham was "Unmerited".

When Abraham, before he was chosen and called by God, when he was dwelling in Ur with his father and kindred, worshiping other gods, when he was a sinner, was not yet a friend of God. But even while he was yet a sinner, an enemy of God so to speak, he was chosen by grace and called by God.

Quote from: GB
The whole purpose of atonement is justification Michael. As I have said over and over. Abraham was a sinner, living in the religions of the land he was born into. And as with every man, God calls him. Sometimes in person as in the days of old, and sometimes through His Word as it is today.

When Abraham denied himself, and "yielded" himself to God, God forgave him and cleansed his sin. He was justified by Faith in God, not by the "Deeds of the Law" of atonement added 430 years later.

I'll answer your never ending questions, in another post.

I'll be waiting for your answers to my simple questions. Thank you.
« Last Edit: Mon Feb 03, 2020 - 01:56:45 by Michael2012 »

Offline GB

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Re: The Jewish Sabbath .......
« Reply #48 on: Sat Feb 01, 2020 - 14:07:41 »
 author=Amo link=topic=105259.msg1055155524#msg1055155524 date=1580575298]

Quote
I understand your perspective, but disagree with your conclusion. God gave Israel His sabbath. They never claimed another one, or taught anyone not to observe God's, but rather polluted God's as the above scriptures reveal. Only those who claim to worship the true God can pollute the things of God  by either neglecting that which is specified by God, or adding things that be of this world to God's commands. The Jews tried to accuse our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ of breaking God's sabbath according to their polluted version of the same, He rightly rejected these abominations, and taught real sabbath observance. Sunday keepers today have polluted God's sanctuary or temple of the new covenant, which temple we are, by bringing a man made sacred day in to replace God's sabbath.

The point is, the Jews were not following God's Sabbaths. They had created their own. I have heard countless mainstream preachers declare "the Jews kept God's Sabbaths and look what it got them". I think it is important to expose the truth about the Jews religion, in that they were not obedient to God, nor were they trying to promote God's Laws on to the people. This is the conclusion I came to. I am sorry you don't agree.


Quote
When apostate "Christianity" hopped in bed with emperors and kings who brought all their unconverted citizens into the church which is the new covenant body of Christ and temple of God, they polluted God's sanctuary once again with unconverted hearts and the abominable practices they brought with them.

I see SDA doing this same thing all the time. They have 6 days to do "their work", but they choose to do much of it on God's Holy Sabbaths. In this way they can attract more folks to their religion, making it more profitable and bigger, which seems to mean something in modern "Christianity".


While I am a true believer in God's Holy Sabbath having lived in it for many years, I am not a believer in SDA. They are guilty, in my view, of the same things they continually accuse other churches of. I met with several SDA church leaders 20 years ago having had His Sabbath written on my heart. I spent a great deal of time discussing scriptures. But they were only promoting their religious franchise, just as AOG, or LDS, or JW, or Catholics and the rest.

It seems they worship a day in the same way modern religions worship an image of some long haired men's hair shampoo model, in the same way the Jews worshipped the Levitical Priesthood.

SDA have watered down and polluted God's Sabbath, just as the Jews have done. And to argue with them about their "acceptable Sabbath activities" will result in the same ridicule and rejection Jesus was subjected to when He argued with the Jews about their "acceptable Sabbath Activities".

In my view, the SDA Franchise has used this one Commandment to build their Franchise, just as the Baptist's have used the Grace of God to build theirs, or the Catholics used the image of a man being tortured to death to build theirs.

Having teamed up with the world as with all the daughters of the Catholic church, SDA has become one of the biggest churches on the planet.

They own 198 hospitals in the world, open 24-7, which employs thousands of people, 24-7 to maintain and make sure these hospitals are profitable so as to stay in business. They claim this is their "good deed" even though there is no indication Jesus promoted the wholesale treatment of random sick people, even though Jesus could have healed every sickness in the world with just one prayer.

Yet you claim to be the righteous one over the Catholics because of this one commandment that your business breaks and causes "many" to break, "in order to do your good deeds" which brought in about 14 Billion US in 2015..

The Catholics has 5,500 churches in the world, and have helped so many more people, in exactly the same way as the SDA. Yet, SDA are free to break God's Commandment because they are "helping the needy", but the Catholic are guilty of breaking the Commandment, even though they pollute it in exactly the same fashion, and for exactly the same reason's SDA does. "To do Good Deeds".

The hypocrisy is stunning.

Quote
Sunday sacredness is among these abominations, introduced by a sun worshiping Roman emperor who embraced "Christianity" as a political ploy to unite "Christians" and heathen together under his rule. These who profess to worship God through Jesus Christ while bringing numerous abominations into the new covenant temple and polluting the sanctuary of God. These who do abandon God's sabbath and establish another day according to their chosen abominations. Thus must the sanctuary be cleansed of all such before our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ returns to redeem His own. Therefore need all of God's true followers in Christ flee from BABYLON THE GREAT, through whom the greater part of these abominations entered the ranks of those who would compose God's new covenant temple.

Has SDA not done the same thing? Just under the claim of a different day? How is it righteousness to pollute God's Sabbath by using the worlds rejection of it, to further your own religion? SDA have no problem with asking men to cook food for them or their family on the Sabbath because they didn't prepare for it the day before. I have heard it all before. "Oh, they were already breaking His Sabbath, so my driving to the restaurant for dinner on His Sabbath is somehow acceptable". Just as they have no problem hiring people to work 24-7 to maintain a business so they can continue to do "Their Good deeds".

This world wide organization is no different than any other organized religion of the world. They think they are, just as the Baptists think they are, just as the Jews think they are. But when you wipe off all the lipstick, there is no difference.


Quote
Now is the time for all professors of Christ to separate themselves from all of the abominations new covenant Israel has brought in and polluted God's sanctuary with. We are no better than the Israel of old, we have repeated their sins. Let us repent, separate ourselves from institutions and practices which are of this world and not of God, and seek to cleanse our hearts and minds that the new covenant temple of God may be cleansed as well. The spirit is willing but the flesh is weak. God forgive us, and strengthen us to do so for the glory and honor of your name.

Yes, let us reject the religious pamphlet's and the SDA church Manuals, and JW Hightower, and all the "Other religious voices" and religious philosophers out there, and follow the Instructions of the Christ Himself.

"Man shall not live by bread alone, but by Every Word which proceeds from the mouth of God"


]1Co 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? 17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

Amo, God's Holy Sabbath is designed as a "Fast" from the world, and the religions thereof. You choose Ellen White, the Catholics choose Constantine, others choose Wesley, and still others choose Calvin, the list goes on and on.

The point being, if God is going to condemn the Catholics for breaking God's Laws, He will also condemn SDA, who by their own choice and businesses have also broken God's Laws.

I am a Sabbath Keeper Amo. You are not talking to someone who rejects the commandment. 

James 1:27 Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.

Who are the fatherless?  Does this mean we only visit kids whose dad is gone?

Who are the widows? Does this mean we only visit those women who were married, but their husband is now passed away?

And how would we help them? By building huge hospitals and schools which require work 24-7 and give them the SDA Church manual?

Of course these words will not be easily accepted. But I would ask of you one thing. Do a study on the Biblical definition of "Fatherless and the Widow" which is mentioned over 40 times in the Law and Prophets, and 1 time in the NT.

Do it in the confines of your own home, in prayer and fasting, and see if you can answer the questions I asked.

I think you will find that this instruction is not designed to be used as an excuse to break any of God's Commands. Even the 4th commandment.





Offline Amo

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Re: The Jewish Sabbath .......
« Reply #49 on: Sat Feb 01, 2020 - 15:48:16 »
author=Amo link=topic=105259.msg1055155524#msg1055155524 date=1580575298]

The point is, the Jews were not following God's Sabbaths. They had created their own. I have heard countless mainstream preachers declare "the Jews kept God's Sabbaths and look what it got them". I think it is important to expose the truth about the Jews religion, in that they were not obedient to God, nor were they trying to promote God's Laws on to the people. This is the conclusion I came to. I am sorry you don't agree.


I see SDA doing this same thing all the time. They have 6 days to do "their work", but they choose to do much of it on God's Holy Sabbaths. In this way they can attract more folks to their religion, making it more profitable and bigger, which seems to mean something in modern "Christianity".


While I am a true believer in God's Holy Sabbath having lived in it for many years, I am not a believer in SDA. They are guilty, in my view, of the same things they continually accuse other churches of. I met with several SDA church leaders 20 years ago having had His Sabbath written on my heart. I spent a great deal of time discussing scriptures. But they were only promoting their religious franchise, just as AOG, or LDS, or JW, or Catholics and the rest.

It seems they worship a day in the same way modern religions worship an image of some long haired men's hair shampoo model, in the same way the Jews worshipped the Levitical Priesthood.

SDA have watered down and polluted God's Sabbath, just as the Jews have done. And to argue with them about their "acceptable Sabbath activities" will result in the same ridicule and rejection Jesus was subjected to when He argued with the Jews about their "acceptable Sabbath Activities".

In my view, the SDA Franchise has used this one Commandment to build their Franchise, just as the Baptist's have used the Grace of God to build theirs, or the Catholics used the image of a man being tortured to death to build theirs.

Having teamed up with the world as with all the daughters of the Catholic church, SDA has become one of the biggest churches on the planet.

They own 198 hospitals in the world, open 24-7, which employs thousands of people, 24-7 to maintain and make sure these hospitals are profitable so as to stay in business. They claim this is their "good deed" even though there is no indication Jesus promoted the wholesale treatment of random sick people, even though Jesus could have healed every sickness in the world with just one prayer.

Yet you claim to be the righteous one over the Catholics because of this one commandment that your business breaks and causes "many" to break, "in order to do your good deeds" which brought in about 14 Billion US in 2015..

The Catholics has 5,500 churches in the world, and have helped so many more people, in exactly the same way as the SDA. Yet, SDA are free to break God's Commandment because they are "helping the needy", but the Catholic are guilty of breaking the Commandment, even though they pollute it in exactly the same fashion, and for exactly the same reason's SDA does. "To do Good Deeds".

The hypocrisy is stunning.

Has SDA not done the same thing? Just under the claim of a different day? How is it righteousness to pollute God's Sabbath by using the worlds rejection of it, to further your own religion? SDA have no problem with asking men to cook food for them or their family on the Sabbath because they didn't prepare for it the day before. I have heard it all before. "Oh, they were already breaking His Sabbath, so my driving to the restaurant for dinner on His Sabbath is somehow acceptable". Just as they have no problem hiring people to work 24-7 to maintain a business so they can continue to do "Their Good deeds".

This world wide organization is no different than any other organized religion of the world. They think they are, just as the Baptists think they are, just as the Jews think they are. But when you wipe off all the lipstick, there is no difference.


Yes, let us reject the religious pamphlet's and the SDA church Manuals, and JW Hightower, and all the "Other religious voices" and religious philosophers out there, and follow the Instructions of the Christ Himself.

"Man shall not live by bread alone, but by Every Word which proceeds from the mouth of God"


]1Co 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? 17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

Amo, God's Holy Sabbath is designed as a "Fast" from the world, and the religions thereof. You choose Ellen White, the Catholics choose Constantine, others choose Wesley, and still others choose Calvin, the list goes on and on.

The point being, if God is going to condemn the Catholics for breaking God's Laws, He will also condemn SDA, who by their own choice and businesses have also broken God's Laws.

I am a Sabbath Keeper Amo. You are not talking to someone who rejects the commandment. 

James 1:27 Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.

Who are the fatherless?  Does this mean we only visit kids whose dad is gone?

Who are the widows? Does this mean we only visit those women who were married, but their husband is now passed away?

And how would we help them? By building huge hospitals and schools which require work 24-7 and give them the SDA Church manual?

Of course these words will not be easily accepted. But I would ask of you one thing. Do a study on the Biblical definition of "Fatherless and the Widow" which is mentioned over 40 times in the Law and Prophets, and 1 time in the NT.

Do it in the confines of your own home, in prayer and fasting, and see if you can answer the questions I asked.

I think you will find that this instruction is not designed to be used as an excuse to break any of God's Commands. Even the 4th commandment.

It seems my disagreement with one of your conclusions, has lead you to several other wrong conclusions. Some of which are ignoring things I clearly pointed out in my post. So be it.

I am sure you are far more righteous than I, which isn't really saying much, and do keep the sabbath better than I and all SDA's apparently. Nevertheless, as a selfish sinner just like the rest of us, you do fall extremely short of perfection regarding such and all else just like the rest of us. My post was not about the exactness or perfection of sabbath observance regarding some sort of scale separating believers, it was about accepting God's sabbath by faith, over and above a man made sabbath. Neither yourself or anyone else will ever be saved or lost in relation to perfect sabbath keeping or law keeping or not. Salvation will be gained or lost in relation to acceptance or rejection of the truth, and God's judgment regarding the authenticity of the same. Which judgement can be in relation to, but is not completely subject to proper or willing obedience, or intention to keep God's commandments. Which commandments are to be kept because one is saved, not in order to be saved. If our salvation were dependent upon the latter, we would all be doomed.

Those who reject the authority of God's commandments will not be lost because they did not perfectly keep them, in which case all would be lost, but rather because they have rejected the truth which is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit of God. Neither can those who reject the authority of God's law be forgiven for their sins against it, in that they will never seek forgiveness for that which they wrongly determine is not sin. Thereby does deception destroy souls. Not in ignorance of God's will, but in chosen and willing ignorance of God's will. As the scriptures themselves testify.

2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. 5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? 6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. 7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. 8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: 9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Sin can be forgiven, rejection of the truth cannot. It is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit of God who convicts the world of sin, righteousness, and judgment to come.

Mar 3:28 Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme: 29 But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation:



Offline GB

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Re: The Jewish Sabbath .......
« Reply #50 on: Sat Feb 01, 2020 - 17:18:11 »
It seems my disagreement with one of your conclusions, has lead you to several other wrong conclusions. Some of which are ignoring things I clearly pointed out in my post. So be it.

I am sure you are far more righteous than I, which isn't really saying much, and do keep the sabbath better than I and all SDA's apparently. Nevertheless, as a selfish sinner just like the rest of us, you do fall extremely short of perfection regarding such and all else just like the rest of us. My post was not about the exactness or perfection of sabbath observance regarding some sort of scale separating believers, it was about accepting God's sabbath by faith, over and above a man made sabbath. Neither yourself or anyone else will ever be saved or lost in relation to perfect sabbath keeping or law keeping or not. Salvation will be gained or lost in relation to acceptance or rejection of the truth, and God's judgment regarding the authenticity of the same. Which judgement can be in relation to, but is not completely subject to proper or willing obedience, or intention to keep God's commandments. Which commandments are to be kept because one is saved, not in order to be saved. If our salvation were dependent upon the latter, we would all be doomed.

Those who reject the authority of God's commandments will not be lost because they did not perfectly keep them, in which case all would be lost, but rather because they have rejected the truth which is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit of God. Neither can those who reject the authority of God's law be forgiven for their sins against it, in that they will never seek forgiveness for that which they wrongly determine is not sin. Thereby does deception destroy souls. Not in ignorance of God's will, but in chosen and willing ignorance of God's will. As the scriptures themselves testify.

2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. 5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? 6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. 7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. 8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: 9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Sin can be forgiven, rejection of the truth cannot. It is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit of God who convicts the world of sin, righteousness, and judgment to come.

Mar 3:28 Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme: 29 But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation:

My disagreement is with the religious practices and doctrines of the organized church with which you defend and promote. Not with you personally.

The Jews also claimed obedience to God's Sabbaths, and yet the Christ rejected them. I understand how easy it is to just attack the messenger, as they did, and you are doing. I was only exposing the glaring hypocrisy of the SDA organization, the same way you expose the hypocrisy of the organized Catholic church every day.

It seems you are more than willing to shell out the corrections, but less willing it seems, to receive them.

Imagine that.








Offline Michael2012

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Re: The Jewish Sabbath .......
« Reply #51 on: Sun Feb 02, 2020 - 06:37:55 »
Why Abraham was chosen by God, was it because of any work that he have done or was it because he have faith?

Faith without works is dead. Is this not Bible 101? Jesus pointed this out in another verse you do not have courage enough to consider. "Why do you call ME Lord, and do not the things I say?" So God chose Abraham "BECAUSE" Abraham obeyed, which is the only true "work of Faith".

Yes you gave an answer. However, it's an answer that goes against the teachings of scriptures.

Genesis 12:1 intimates that God had chosen Abraham, where God had spoken to him and had first given him a commandment. That was at a time, when Abraham was dwelling in Ur with his father and kindred who were idolaters, worshiping other gods (Joshua 24:2). It was at a time when he was a sinner, was not yet a friend of God so to speak, and knew not God.

God had chosen Abraham by His grace, according to His will and purpose in him, is unmistakable. That God had chosen him because of any work that he have done or his obedience, or because he have faith in God, is a lie and is an impossibility, for Abraham knew not God, moreso have faith in Him and obey Him, before God had spoken to him in Gen. 12:1.   

Quote from: GB
So I answered your question, answer mine.

Is the Christ that said "Why do you call ME Lord, and do not the things I say" the same Christ which said to Abram, "Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee: Did Abram obey or not?

It was not Jesus Christ, but is YHVH or YHWH, who said unto Abram, "Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee" (Gen. 12:1). It was Jesus Christ, that said "And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?"(Luke 6:46).

After God had chosen Abraham, God gave him a commandment (Gen. 12:1). Next God gave him promises (Gen.12: 2-3). After which, Abraham believed Him who spoke to him, that is, God. Believing, Abraham in hope, obeyed God's command unto him. 

Offline RB

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Re: The Jewish Sabbath .......
« Reply #52 on: Sun Feb 02, 2020 - 08:10:34 »
I was only exposing the glaring hypocrisy of the SDA organization, the same way you expose the hypocrisy of the organized Catholic church every day.
I would not call the SDA religion a glaring hypocrisy because of their hospitals working 24/7 AS LONG AS they give each worker off ONE DAY after working six days to rest their bodies, minds and for them to set THAT DAY aside for religious purpose of meditations and prayers and worship. That's the intent of God sanctifying the seventh day AFTER six days of working! That day will vary from person to person. Do you suggest that ALL law enforcement be closed on YOUR SABBATH DAY? If you were extremely ill on YOUR SABBATH DAY OF REST. would you not use A Catholic, SDA, Baptist, etc. hospitals? If someone broke into your home on YOUR SABBATH DAY would you not call the law? Of course, you would on both accounts, so the hypocrite is you and maybe SDA IF they refuse to give their workers a day off AFTER six days of labor per Genesis....AND if they insist that it be on SATURDAY the OLD JEWISH SABBATH DAY under Moses! Under the NT it is abundantly clear that the FIRST day of the week is our HOLY SABBATH DAY, (BUT, some godly people might not be able to honor that day for reasons given)  whereby we honor our Lord's death and resurrection. I have proven this in another thread and do not desire to do so again. Mark 16:9 is clear as to WHAT DAY our Lord was resurrected~the very day that the holy apostle John was in the Spirit, per Revelation as he spent that day in prayer, meditations and worship, that prompts him to say that he was IN THE SPIRIT on the Lord's day, and if the first day of the week is not the Lord's day, then WHAT DAY IS IT?
Quote from: Amo on: Yesterday at 15:48:16
I am sure you are far more righteous than I, which isn't really saying much, and do keep the sabbath better than I and all SDA's apparently. Nevertheless, as a selfish sinner just like the rest of us, you do fall extremely short of perfection regarding such and all else just like the rest of us. My post was not about the exactness or perfection of sabbath observance regarding some sort of scale separating believers, it was about accepting God's sabbath by faith, over and above a man made sabbath. Neither yourself or anyone else will ever be saved or lost in relation to perfect sabbath keeping or law keeping or not. Salvation will be gained or lost in relation to acceptance or rejection of the truth, and God's judgment regarding the authenticity of the same. Which judgement can be in relation to, but is not completely subject to proper or willing obedience, or intention to keep God's commandments. Which commandments are to be kept because one is saved, not in order to be saved. If our salvation were dependent upon the latter, we would all be doomed.

Those who reject the authority of God's commandments will not be lost because they did not perfectly keep them, in which case all would be lost, but rather because they have rejected the truth which is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit of God. Neither can those who reject the authority of God's law be forgiven for their sins against it, in that they will never seek forgiveness for that which they wrongly determine is not sin. Thereby does deception destroy souls. Not in ignorance of God's will, but in chosen and willing ignorance of God's will. As the scriptures themselves testify.


Sin can be forgiven, rejection of the truth cannot. It is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit of God who convicts the world of sin, righteousness, and judgment to come.

Mar 3:28 Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme: 29 But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation:
Some of your words prove to me that you are not far from the kingdom of God.  I also fully agree with your understanding of blasphemy against the Holy Spirit of God. Without dissecting your words let me say a few things and then I'm most likely finish with this thread.

I firmly believe in God's holy Sabbath as it was given and for the purpose in which it was given starting with Genesis. It was given FOR MAN"S benefits, not man for the Sabbath. It seems as though no one kept it as it was first given~SIX days of working and THEN resting the seventh day. Not until The Law Giver Moses appeared do we see where it was given by God AGAIN on tables of stone in its STRICTEST SENSE~NO WORK, for man, beast, servants, and even the LAND (obviously DIFFERENT SECTIONS AT A TIMES) had a sabbath every seven years.

By God giving the law, it was done to give them a KNOWLEDGE OF SIN, and to show them their NEED OF JESUS CHRIST'S RIGHTEOUSNESS. Every saved person living under the OT KNEW in their hearts that it was IMPOSSIBLE for them to keep the law in ITS STRICTEST and WIDEST SENSE, thereby, they understood that the law gave WITNESS to the righteousness of God that he would provide for them THROUGH CHRIST. The self-righteous (and we will add, SELF DECEIVED) among them TRUST IN THEIR power to keep the law in order to be accepted with God, yet neither Abraham nor David did so, but BOTH spoke of how God IMPUTES righteousness WITHOUT the deeds of the law (Psalms 32:2, etc.)~we under the NT see it even MUCH CLEARER or at least the very elect do, the mixed multitudes among us DO NOT.  Before I leave, let me give an example of how the law should convict us as wicked sinners if the law is used in the sense in which God gave it.

On the Sabbath day there was to be NO WORK, but rest and be used for SPIRITUAL ACTIVITY alone. Now almost every man can keep the letter of the law, NO PROBLEM~but to keep its in its purest form IN OUR HEARTS without any desire to do ANYTHING other than rest and for GOD, is impossible, (if we are honest) even though one may attempt to do so.  Maybe we can refrain from working, YET in our hearts, we still would have thoughts about it being past so that we can get back to our business of making money and providing for ourselves and family. EVEN on the Sabbath if we have any fleshly DESIRES for ANYTHING other than GOD, it is a sin! FOR THIS REASON and others is why God gave the Sabbath. It should show us JUST HOW SINFUL WE ARE if the law is understood by us in the perfection of its spirituality.   
« Last Edit: Sun Feb 02, 2020 - 08:23:40 by RB »

Offline GB

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Re: The Jewish Sabbath .......
« Reply #53 on: Sun Feb 02, 2020 - 08:58:35 »
author=Michael2012 link=topic=105259.msg1055155571#msg1055155571 date=1580647075]
Quote
Faith without works is dead. Is this not Bible 101? Jesus pointed this out in another verse you do not have courage enough to consider. "Why do you call ME Lord, and do not the things I say?" So God chose Abraham "BECAUSE" Abraham obeyed, which is the only true "work of Faith".

Yes you gave an answer. However, it's an answer that goes against the teachings of scriptures.

Genesis 12:1 intimates that God had chosen Abraham, where God had spoken to him and had first given him a commandment. That was at a time, when Abraham was dwelling in Ur with his father and kindred who were idolaters, worshiping other gods (Joshua 24:2). It was at a time when he was a sinner, was not yet a friend of God so to speak, and knew not God.


God calls all sinners to repentance, why would Abram be any different?  "Many are called, but few are chosen".

Yes, by God's Grace Abram was called, like all men. "Deny yourself and follow Me". As it is written in the Holy Scriptures "Today, if you hear HIS Voice, harden not your hearts".

Abram heard God and didn't harden his heart, but obeyed. God Himself said this was the reason HE chose Abram.

It is God's Judgment, once again, that you refuse to accept.

Quote
God had chosen Abraham by His grace, according to His will and purpose in him, is unmistakable.

No, you are twisting these scriptures. God called Abram first. God called Him to deny himself and follow HIM. Before he was blessed, before he was chosen, while Abram was yet in sin, God called him to "deny himself" and follow God. Abram had two choices. Trust God's Words and obey, reject God's words and disobey.

Abram chose to trust God.

The God of the Bible Himself tells us God "Chose" Him "BECAUSE" Abraham obeyed.

Gen. 18: 19 For I know him, that he will command his children and his household after him, and they shall keep the way of the LORD, to do justice and judgment; that the LORD may bring upon Abraham that which he hath spoken of him.

The biblical Truth is that God, by HIS grace, Called Abram to "deny himself" and follow God FIRST. Abram did as the Lord commanded. And God chose to make him a father of many nations because of Abram's Faithfulness.

Quote
That God had chosen him because of any work that he have done or his obedience, or because he have faith in God, is a lie and is an impossibility, for Abraham knew not God, moreso have faith in Him and obey Him, before God had spoken to him in Gen. 12:1.

You are confused. Abram was called to deny himself before he obeyed, while he was yet in sin. The Call came first as it is clearly written. Abram obeyed the call, God chose Him to be a father of many nations "BECAUSE" HE Obeyed.

Gen. 26:4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;

5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

This is just like the Covenant God made with Levi on behalf of the Children of Israel. You religion doesn't teach these truths therefore you don't know of them. And when some poor slob like my self shows them to you, you call them a liar. And yet, here is God Himself telling you why HE Chose to give Abraham the Promise, and you still refuse to question your own religion.


Quote
It was not Jesus Christ, but is YHVH or YHWH, who said unto Abram, "Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee" (Gen. 12:1). It was Jesus Christ, that said "And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?"(Luke 6:46).

You didn't answer the question. In Your Religion, Was the God that talked with Abram, the same God that became the man Jesus?

Quote
After God had chosen Abraham, God gave him a commandment (Gen. 12:1). Next God gave him promises (Gen.12: 2-3). After which, Abraham believed Him who spoke to him, that is, God. Believing, Abraham in hope, obeyed God's command unto him.

God called Abram to deny himself first Michael. Without Abram's choice to obey the call, there would be no new land for Abram, no promise to Abram. God would have called others until someone obeyed the call to deny themselves, and brought them into a new land, and gave them the promise HE offered to Abram.

God knew what choice Abram would make because HE knows the end from the beginning. But Abram didn't. Abram made the choice to obey God of his own free will. This is why God Chose to give HIM the Promises.

And God Himself tells you this. "today, if you hear HIS Voice, harden not your heart". "Do the works of Abraham".







Offline Michael2012

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Re: The Jewish Sabbath .......
« Reply #54 on: Sun Feb 02, 2020 - 09:17:28 »
Which came first, God's election and call to Abraham or Abraham's faith?

It depends on whose perspective you are speaking to. If you are speaking to God's Perspective, God knows the end from the beginning. God knows who will listen to Him and who will not before He calls them, because according to scriptures, He has already seen their choice. So God chose Abram from the foundation of the world because HE knew Abram would obey Him, because in God's Realm, Abram already did. And God clearly tells us why HE chose Abram, "Because Abram obeyed".

But if you are speaking to Abram's perspective, He didn't know any of these things. He made a choice to follow God knowing it would anger those idolaters he had lived with. He didn't know where he was going, or how he was going to get there. He just bowed himself to his creator and obeyed.

So to Abram, God's call came first, then the choice to believe. "So Abram departed, as the LORD had spoken unto him;"

Of course the question is with regards to what scriptures says about that, and not with regards to God's perspective or Abraham's perspective.

For to even think that you can put yourself in God's perspective, is nothing but arrogance, and certainly a futile exercise. All is but mere guess that results to more questions than answers, which really leads us nowhere. For example, did God create Adam and Eve because He looked into the future and saw that they will sin? What if He had seen otherwise? Can you get into God's perspective and tell us the truth?   

But if we go to scriptures and be faithful to it, not going beyond what is written, God's election and call to Abraham comes first and before Abraham's faith unto obedience.

Quote from: GB
I have answered your question, so answer mine.

In your religion, do you believe God lied to Isaac when He told him why He blessed Abraham?

To my present knowledge, I know no such instance that God told Isaac why He blessed Abraham. But if there was, needles to say, God did not lie, for it is impossible for God to lie.

Are you referring to Gen. 26:1-5? If you are, then you are mistaken. Read again the passage.

Offline Michael2012

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Re: The Jewish Sabbath .......
« Reply #55 on: Sun Feb 02, 2020 - 09:49:03 »
Which came first, God's promise to Abraham or Abraham's obedience?

Neither came first Michael. Nice try. God's Command came first, as with Eve. "Today, if you hear His Voice, harden not your hearts". Had Abram chosen to stay in the religion he was born into, there would have been no promise.

Gen. 12:1 Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee: 2 And I will make of thee a great nation,

There is the command. "So Abram departed, as the LORD had spoken unto him;" there is Abram's answer.

With reference to Gen. 12:1-4, here's the order.

Verse 1: God's choosing of Abram, and the charge of God to Abraham.
Verses 2 & 3: God's promises to Abram.
Verse 4: Abram's faith unto obedience

Clearly, what came first is God's choosing of Abram by grace and God's charge. Second, the promises of God to Abram. Then came last, is Abram's faith unto obedience.

Quote from: GB
The implication of your religion that Abram could have rejected this command from God and still be blessed is foolishness and deceitful. And God's Word in it's entirely never teaches such hogwash. It teaches just the opposite.
God have chosen Abraham to carry out His determined purpose, not just merely choosing him. If you think that Abraham could have rejected God, then you seem to give more weight to Abraham's will power than to God's power. Besides, if God spoke to you as He did to Abraham, or to Moses, or to Paul, would you still say you could reject God and not do what He tells you to do? I am beginning to think that you think you could.

Consider meditating on these scriptures:

Romans 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?



Offline Michael2012

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Re: The Jewish Sabbath .......
« Reply #56 on: Sun Feb 02, 2020 - 10:10:52 »
Which came first, Abraham's faith or his obedience?

According to Scriptures, Faith and obedience are the same thing. One can not exist without the other. Abram's obedience showed his faith in God. Abram's faith was shown by his obedience to God.

Either way, the Commandment to Abram came first. Without the Command, there is no faith, and there is no obedience, there is no blessing.

According to you Faith and obedience are the same thing. According to scriptures, Abraham's faith came first. So that, by faith, Abraham obeyed God.

That's right, Abraham's obedient work showed his faith in God. And that answers the question GB. He had to have faith in the first place so that there is faith to be shown by his obedient work.

Offline GB

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Re: The Jewish Sabbath .......
« Reply #57 on: Sun Feb 02, 2020 - 10:50:35 »
 author=RB link=topic=105259.msg1055155575#msg1055155575 date=1580652634]
Quote
I would not call the SDA religion a glaring hypocrisy because of their hospitals working 24/7 AS LONG AS they give each worker off ONE DAY after working six days to rest their bodies, minds and for them to set THAT DAY aside for religious purpose of meditations and prayers and worship. That's the intent of God sanctifying the seventh day AFTER six days of working! That day will vary from person to person. Do you suggest that ALL law enforcement be closed on YOUR SABBATH DAY? If you were extremely ill on YOUR SABBATH DAY OF REST. would you not use A Catholic, SDA, Baptist, etc. hospitals? If someone broke into your home on YOUR SABBATH DAY would you not call the law? Of course, you would on both accounts, so the hypocrite is you and maybe SDA IF they refuse to give their workers a day off AFTER six days of labor per Genesis....AND if they insist that it be on SATURDAY the OLD JEWISH SABBATH DAY under Moses! Under the NT it is abundantly clear that the FIRST day of the week is our HOLY SABBATH DAY, (BUT, some godly people might not be able to honor that day for reasons given)  whereby we honor our Lord's death and resurrection. I have proven this in another thread and do not desire to do so again. Mark 16:9 is clear as to WHAT DAY our Lord was resurrected~the very day that the holy apostle John was in the Spirit, per Revelation as he spent that day in prayer, meditations and worship, that prompts him to say that he was IN THE SPIRIT on the Lord's day, and if the first day of the week is not the Lord's day, then WHAT DAY IS IT?

My point is AMO is condemning a religious franchise for doing many of the same things that SDA religious franchise does. I agree with him regarding the mainstream preachers of this world. But I warn him that his religious franchise produces much of the same fruits. My hope is that he is not caught with her, when Jesus comes.

I pointed out that Jesus could have healed every sick person, child, in the world with one prayer. But He chose not to.

God has protected His elect through worldly nations for centuries. It doesn't mean we should follow their religions.

Healing random sick people might be a "work" religious men rely on for righteousness. But Jesus never instructed any such thing. Instead, He warned of being deceived by religious men who come in HIS Name.

It seems God has Judgments given to the world through HIS Holy Scriptures. Men also have judgments. The point of repentance is to "deny" our judgments in favor of Gods.

God tells us HIS Judgments are perfect, Holy, Righteous and Good. But you have judged many of them as Beggarly Elements, burdens, Yoke of Bondage, and UnHoly. God says that in the 7 day week HE Created, the 7th is Holy, is Sanctified, and He commanded HIS people to remember this.

But you have judged His 7th day as not Holy. Not Sanctified, and you outright reject the command to treat this day differently than the others. Instead, you choose to judge the 1st day of the week as "Your Holy Sabbath", a judgment not given even once in the entire Bible. Not Prophesied by the God who knows the end from the beginning. And no instruction whatsoever to deny the 7th Day, and create your own Sabbath. No instruction by God, Jesus, any of the Prophets, Disciples, nothing. You take a few verses in the Bible, and declare that through them you are justified to reject the Sabbath of God and create your own Sabbath.


However, the rejection and pollution of His Sanctified day is spoken of over and over and over in God's Word. And God pointed out HIS displeasure over this rejection of HIS Judgment, His Anger towards religious men who did what you advocate, is not withheld from us.

So once again, it is a matter of what the Holy Scriptures teach VS. what religious men preach. Red.

If a man were to only study the Holy Scriptures, without the influence of any "other religious voices", There would be no influence what so ever to reject God's Sabbaths in favor of a Catholic High Day. Just as Eve would have had no influence or reason to eat of the tree in which God commanded not to eat.

I understand I am bucking centuries of other religious voices, like those who deceived Eve, and that men like to have it that way. But alas, here I am, pointing out these truths anyway.

God didn't create HIS Word's for people to reject them. That is not the purpose of HIS Word. He didn't create the Commandment for people to omit and ignore. Of this I am sure. His Sabbath wasn't made for the purpose of building a huge, worldly accepted religion surrounding it, nor was it created for the purpose of polluting, omitting or forgetting.

But He did create His Commandment for a purpose. Can we reject the Command, and still find it's purpose? I think not.

And yet, is this not what modern religions teach us to do?












Offline GB

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Re: The Jewish Sabbath .......
« Reply #58 on: Sun Feb 02, 2020 - 11:25:02 »
According to Scriptures, Faith and obedience are the same thing. One can not exist without the other. Abram's obedience showed his faith in God. Abram's faith was shown by his obedience to God.

Either way, the Commandment to Abram came first. Without the Command, there is no faith, and there is no obedience, there is no blessing.

According to you Faith and obedience are the same thing. According to scriptures, Abraham's faith came first. So that, by faith, Abraham obeyed God.

That's right, Abraham's obedient work showed his faith in God. And that answers the question GB. He had to have faith in the first place so that there is faith to be shown by his obedient work.

Without the Command, there is neither an opportunity for faith, nor the opportunity for obedience. God calls us first. "today if you hear His Voice, harden not your hearts." Our work determines the reward.

This is God's Truth throughout the entire Bible.

Gen. 4:7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.

Gen. 26:5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

Duet 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

Mark 8:34 And when he had called the people unto him with his disciples also, he said unto them, Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, (FIRST) and take up his cross, and follow me.

Rom. 2:7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

2 Tim. 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

Rev. 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

From front to back, the same teaching. The only thing that changed is the manner in which these truths are administered, and the way in which our sins are atoned for.

If we want to be Abraham's Children, and heirs to the promise, we must follow the Instructions of the True Savior. Not the Pope, but the Christ Jesus. And He said those who do the "WORKS" of Abraham are heirs to the promise. And what did Abram do when God called him? "So Abram departed, as the LORD had spoken unto him". And God said "BECAUSE" of this, God gave the promise.

I get it Michael, your religion doesn't teach these things. This is why I am here pointing them out. I don't expect you will receive them any more than the mainstream preachers of Christ's did. But it's there just the same. Be a Nicodemus Michael. Look into it.


Offline GB

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Re: The Jewish Sabbath .......
« Reply #59 on: Sun Feb 02, 2020 - 11:31:05 »
It depends on whose perspective you are speaking to. If you are speaking to God's Perspective, God knows the end from the beginning. God knows who will listen to Him and who will not before He calls them, because according to scriptures, He has already seen their choice. So God chose Abram from the foundation of the world because HE knew Abram would obey Him, because in God's Realm, Abram already did. And God clearly tells us why HE chose Abram, "Because Abram obeyed".

But if you are speaking to Abram's perspective, He didn't know any of these things. He made a choice to follow God knowing it would anger those idolaters he had lived with. He didn't know where he was going, or how he was going to get there. He just bowed himself to his creator and obeyed.

So to Abram, God's call came first, then the choice to believe. "So Abram departed, as the LORD had spoken unto him;"

Of course the question is with regards to what scriptures says about that, and not with regards to God's perspective or Abraham's perspective.

For to even think that you can put yourself in God's perspective, is nothing but arrogance, and certainly a futile exercise. All is but mere guess that results to more questions than answers, which really leads us nowhere. For example, did God create Adam and Eve because He looked into the future and saw that they will sin? What if He had seen otherwise? Can you get into God's perspective and tell us the truth?   

But if we go to scriptures and be faithful to it, not going beyond what is written, God's election and call to Abraham comes first and before Abraham's faith unto obedience.

To my present knowledge, I know no such instance that God told Isaac why He blessed Abraham. But if there was, needles to say, God did not lie, for it is impossible for God to lie.

Are you referring to Gen. 26:1-5? If you are, then you are mistaken. Read again the passage.

Gen. 26:1 And there was a famine in the land, beside the first famine that was in the days of Abraham. And Isaac went unto Abimelech king of the Philistines unto Gerar.

2 And the LORD appeared unto him, and said, Go not down into Egypt; dwell in the land which I shall tell thee of: (Command)

3 Sojourn in this land, and I will be with thee, and will bless thee; for unto thee, and unto thy seed, I will give all these countries, and I will perform the oath which I sware unto Abraham thy father;

4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;

5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

6 And Isaac dwelt in Gerar: (As the Lord had instructed him. Isaac did the "works of Abraham".)

Had Isaac not followed the command of God, would he still be blessed? The Pharisees thought so. Do you?

Offline Amo

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Re: The Jewish Sabbath .......
« Reply #60 on: Sun Feb 02, 2020 - 12:17:40 »
My disagreement is with the religious practices and doctrines of the organized church with which you defend and promote. Not with you personally.

The Jews also claimed obedience to God's Sabbaths, and yet the Christ rejected them. I understand how easy it is to just attack the messenger, as they did, and you are doing. I was only exposing the glaring hypocrisy of the SDA organization, the same way you expose the hypocrisy of the organized Catholic church every day.

It seems you are more than willing to shell out the corrections, but less willing it seems, to receive them.

Imagine that.

I'm sorry you perceived my disagreement as an attack, as so very many do. I suppose most of us react to disagreement with our own views as an attack of the same. You are preaching to the quire about denominational hypocrisy, including such about SDA's, whom I no longer join in worship due in some part to the same. Standing in the pulpit in front of a symbol representing the three angels of the book of Revelation 14, and saying absolutely nothing about those messages for ten, twelve, fourteen, and or who knows how many years. Still, I have no delusions about my own propensities to hypocrisy just as the rest, including yourself. I simply want no part of silence when the trumpet should be sounding the alarm.

I have an do address and accept of the fact that the SDA church as all others is heading down the wrong path. Nevertheless, that path is back to Rome, where all roads in and of this world lead. No one can take the place or blame allotted to the MOTHER OF HARLOTS. Nor should they. It is only right to trace deception back to its original source. In this new covenant era as far as institutions go, that would be the church of Rome. This is not to mention her non stop ongoing religious and political maneuvers and manipulation throughout the past and in our present. Nevertheless, this does not take away from the hypocrisy of other institutions and individuals as well, including the SDA denomination. Preach it brother.

Offline Michael2012

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Re: The Jewish Sabbath .......
« Reply #61 on: Sun Feb 02, 2020 - 12:46:10 »
What was accounted to Abraham for righteousness, was it faith or work?

Again, one can not exist without the other. The Command came first. Abram's choice following the command determined his righteousness, or lack thereof.

James 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? (The Command)

22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works (Obeying the command) was faith made perfect?

23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

Here is the exchange from God's Own Word's.

Gen. 22:16 And said, By myself have I sworn, saith the LORD, for because thou hast done this thing, and hast not withheld thy son, thine only son:

17 That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies;

18 And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.

24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

But if I follow you and Red's religion, I am forced to destroy these Word's of God and omit them completely from my understanding. Why? Because your religion does not promote the same message as the God of the Bible. Do you care? The Pharisees didn't, the wicked kings of Israel didn't. Cain didn't. And from your posts I see you don't either.

But regardless of your purposeful refusals to accept these Word's of God,  the Command comes before any of these things. As the Christ teaches.

Duet. 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

I have answered yet another of your endless questions.

The question is "What was accounted to Abraham for righteousness, was it faith or work?"

Scriptures gives as a clear and direct answer. The answer is faith, not works.

Genesis 15:6 And he believed in the Lord; and he counted it to him for righteousness.

Galatians 3:6Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.

Romans 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

Romans 4:9 Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.

James 2:23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.


There. Deny that, that's up to you.

Quote from: GB
Now answer mine.
 
In your religion, did Abram choose to trust God? Or did God Make Abram HIS Friend?

Yes Abram chose to trust God.

Yes God made Abraham His friend. 
« Last Edit: Sun Feb 02, 2020 - 12:50:57 by Michael2012 »

Offline RB

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Re: The Jewish Sabbath .......
« Reply #62 on: Sun Feb 02, 2020 - 13:29:12 »
God didn't create HIS Word's for people to reject them. That is not the purpose of HIS Word. He didn't create the Commandment for people to omit and ignore. Of this I am sure. His Sabbath wasn't made for the purpose of building a huge, worldly accepted religion surrounding it, nor was it created for the purpose of polluting, omitting or forgetting.
True to your form, you never address my points in the post to you~with a few words addressed to Amo. I know well WHY we have the OT first and then the NT. I know perfectly why the law formally was given to Israel, even though the world had been here for almost ten thousand years~From Adam to the flood was 6000.... from the flood to Abraham another three thousand; Abraham to Moses around 650 years; Moses to Christ to Christ, around 1500 years~ all are around about numbers (but very close)  using the genealogy in Genesis 5, and 10 along with other recorded for us in Matthew 1 and Luke three to determine this~We KNOW that God laws in germ form were given to Adam until Moses when at which point the law was given in a broad scope, yet the same laws summed up in the table of stones that God wrote and gave to Moses for Israel, and many other such laws were added only until the time of reformation which took place during the days of the apostles of Jesus Christ. Much of Israel's laws that governed their worship of God, were ONLY shadows and types imposed on them until Jesus Christ, and then they were no longer needed. The law was given by God to be a SCHOOLMASTER to teach us our need of Christ's faith and righteousness for our justification before the law of God. Once we learn from this good, holy and spiritual schoolmaster, then we are not under him ANY LONGER as a schoolmaster. We will ALWAYS be under the law of God in the sense of it being our knowledge of sin and how to please God and to make us LONG for deliverance from this BODY OF SIN and DEATH that we all live in.
Quote from: Paul
1st Timothy 1:7-9a~"Desiring to be teachers of the law; understanding neither what they say, nor whereof they affirm. But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully; Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man..............."
GB, putting the law of God in your hands is like putting a AutoMag .44 Magnum in the hands of a serial killer. 
« Last Edit: Mon Feb 03, 2020 - 04:05:27 by RB »

Offline Michael2012

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Re: The Jewish Sabbath .......
« Reply #63 on: Sun Feb 02, 2020 - 13:29:51 »
Do you consider Abraham's election by God and His promises to him, to mean that he have been saved by God?

Heb. 11:39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: 40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

1 Tim. 6:15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords; 16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.

Abraham is resting in hope, as is David.

Ps. 16:8 I have set the LORD always before me: because he is at my right hand, I shall not be moved. 9 Therefore my heart is glad, and my glory rejoiceth: my flesh also shall rest in hope. 10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell;(Grave) neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. 11 Thou wilt shew me the path of life: in thy presence is fulness of joy; at thy right hand there are pleasures for evermore.

Rom. 8:21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. 23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body. 24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?

I believe that Abraham died in Hope that God would deliver his dead body from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. And all of those who merited God's Election are "waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body".

Has this happened yet for Abraham? "MANY" religions preach it has, but the scriptures say he is still waiting, as am I, for the return of our savior.

The question is not asking whether Abraham's dead body had already been delivered from the bondage of corruption or not.

I'm guessing that your answer to the question "Do you consider Abraham's election by God and His promises to him, to mean that he have been saved by God?", is NO.

As for me, it's a YES.


 

Offline GB

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Re: The Jewish Sabbath .......
« Reply #64 on: Sun Feb 02, 2020 - 13:47:30 »
I'm sorry you perceived my disagreement as an attack, as so very many do. I suppose most of us react to disagreement with our own views as an attack of the same. You are preaching to the quire about denominational hypocrisy, including such about SDA's, whom I no longer join in worship due in some part to the same. Standing in the pulpit in front of a symbol representing the three angels of the book of Revelation 14, and saying absolutely nothing about those messages for ten, twelve, fourteen, and or who knows how many years. Still, I have no delusions about my own propensities to hypocrisy just as the rest, including yourself. I simply want no part of silence when the trumpet should be sounding the alarm.

I have an do address and accept of the fact that the SDA church as all others is heading down the wrong path. Nevertheless, that path is back to Rome, where all roads in and of this world lead. No one can take the place or blame allotted to the MOTHER OF HARLOTS. Nor should they. It is only right to trace deception back to its original source. In this new covenant era as far as institutions go, that would be the church of Rome. This is not to mention her non stop ongoing religious and political maneuvers and manipulation throughout the past and in our present. Nevertheless, this does not take away from the hypocrisy of other institutions and individuals as well, including the SDA denomination. Preach it brother.

I too, am learning how to deal with the deceptions which surround us. I am a fighter by nature, please forgive my rush to put you in a place you do not dwell. I am reminded of one of the warnings for churches in the latter days, much to my shame.

Rev. 2:1 Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write; These things saith he that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand, who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks; 2 I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars: 3 And hast borne, and hast patience, and for my name's sake hast laboured, and hast not fainted. 4 Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love. 5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent. 6 But this thou hast, that thou hatest the deeds of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate. 7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

I sometimes forget the promises of God, that there are indeed others who also have escaped to snare of Babylon.

Thank you for your patient reminder of this truth.





Offline RB

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Re: The Jewish Sabbath .......
« Reply #65 on: Mon Feb 03, 2020 - 04:38:08 »
God calls all sinners to repentance, why would Abram be any different?  "Many are called, but few are chosen".

Yes, by God's Grace Abram was called, like all men. "Deny yourself and follow Me". As it is written in the Holy Scriptures "Today, if you hear HIS Voice, harden not your hearts".
Sir, you are deceived and it can be easily proven, most likely not to you but any person willing to trust the scriptures alone will be able to see this for themselves.

You said God calls ALL to repentance and then quoted a scripture where it PLAINLY said that MANY are called! So which is it?  You flipped God's holy calling to his elect totally around and put man at the main focal point of his salvation by man's will making the decisive decision to follow Christ. I'll believe Paul over false prophets like you where he clearly taught the early church:
Quote from: Paul
1st Corinthians 1:26-31~"For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called: But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are: That no flesh should glory in his presence. But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord."
I'll glory in the LORD JEHOVAH GOD, and let you rot in your on sinful flesh that you think has the power to please God APART from his election of pure grace to sinful, wicked men.
Quote
according as it is written
is OT theology as well! Enough, for most likely it is wasted time toward people like you who blindly believe that in his flesh there are some GOOD THINGS apart from the grace of God.
« Last Edit: Mon Feb 03, 2020 - 04:40:27 by RB »

Offline Michael2012

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Re: The Jewish Sabbath .......
« Reply #66 on: Mon Feb 03, 2020 - 05:27:07 »
Genesis 12:1 intimates that God had chosen Abraham, where God had spoken to him and had first given him a commandment. That was at a time, when Abraham was dwelling in Ur with his father and kindred who were idolaters, worshiping other gods (Joshua 24:2). It was at a time when he was a sinner, was not yet a friend of God so to speak, and knew not God.


God calls all sinners to repentance, why would Abram be any different?  "Many are called, but few are chosen".

Yes, by God's Grace Abram was called, like all men. "Deny yourself and follow Me". As it is written in the Holy Scriptures "Today, if you hear HIS Voice, harden not your hearts".
Yes God calls all sinners unto repentance, and Abraham was no different in that sense. And in that sense, no man isn't called unto repentance, for all have sinned. But in another sense, the calling of Abraham by God is different, for not only was Abraham called unto repentance as all sinners are, but was chosen by God according to His grace, will and purpose.

Quote from: GB
Abram heard God and didn't harden his heart, but obeyed.

Yes.

Quote from: GB
God Himself said this was the reason HE chose Abram.

Please cite scriptures where God himself says that HE chose Abram by reason of that.

Quote from: GB
Quote from: Michael
God had chosen Abraham by His grace, according to His will and purpose in him, is unmistakable.

No, you are twisting these scriptures. God called Abram first. God called Him to deny himself and follow HIM. Before he was blessed, before he was chosen, while Abram was yet in sin, God called him to "deny himself" and follow God. Abram had two choices. Trust God's Words and obey, reject God's words and disobey.

No GB, you are.

Quote from: GB
Abram chose to trust God.

Yes he did.

Quote from: GB
The God of the Bible Himself tells us God "Chose" Him "BECAUSE" Abraham obeyed.

Gen. 18: 19 For I know him, that he will command his children and his household after him, and they shall keep the way of the LORD, to do justice and judgment; that the LORD may bring upon Abraham that which he hath spoken of him.

Gen. 18:19 For I have chosen him (kî yə-ḏa‘-tîw), so that (lə-ma-‘an ’ă-šer) he will direct his children and his household after him to keep the way of the Lord  by doing what is right and just, so that (lə-ma-‘an) the Lord will bring about for Abraham what he has promised him.”

What scriptures says God says in Gen. 18:19 is that He have chosen Abraham for the purpose that he directs his children and his household after him to keep the way of the Lord  by doing what is right and just, so that He will bring about for Abraham what he has promised him.

Quote from: GB
The biblical Truth is that God, by HIS grace, Called Abram to "deny himself" and follow God FIRST. Abram did as the Lord commanded. And God chose to make him a father of many nations because of Abram's Faithfulness.
The biblical truth is that, by grace, God have chosen Abraham from among all man in Abraham's time according to His will and purpose. God's purpose in him can be found in the promises He gave Abraham. In Gen. 12:1-4, God instructed Abraham to get out of his country, and from his kindred, and from his father's house, unto a land that God will show him. He gave these promises to him, that God will make him into a great nation, will bless him, will make his name great, and he will be a blessing; God  will bless those who bless him and curse those who curses him; and all peoples on earth will be blessed through him. Abraham believed what the Lord had said, and did as the Lord had told him to do.

Quote from: GB
Quote from: Michael
That God had chosen him because of any work that he have done or his obedience, or because he have faith in God, is a lie and is an impossibility, for Abraham knew not God, moreso have faith in Him and obey Him, before God had spoken to him in Gen. 12:1.
You are confused. Abram was called to deny himself before he obeyed, while he was yet in sin. The Call came first as it is clearly written. Abram obeyed the call, God chose Him to be a father of many nations "BECAUSE" HE Obeyed.

Gen. 26:4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;

5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

This is just like the Covenant God made with Levi on behalf of the Children of Israel. You religion doesn't teach these truths therefore you don't know of them. And when some poor slob like my self shows them to you, you call them a liar. And yet, here is God Himself telling you why HE Chose to give Abraham the Promise, and you still refuse to question your own religion.

No GB. I am not the one confused, you are.

When God called Abraham, God, needless to say, first had chosen to call him and not another. And God let Himself be heard by Abram so Abraham could have faith. And so God spoke to him, His message. As faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God, Abraham believed. And believing, he obeyed.

You are confused about Gen. 26:4-5, even making the passage to be saying that there God Himself tells you why HE Chose to give Abraham the Promise, when the said passage is about God speaking to Isaac. Here's the account:

Genesis 26:1 And there was a famine in the land, beside the first famine that was in the days of Abraham. And Isaac went unto Abimelech king of the Philistines unto Gerar.

2 And the Lord appeared unto him, and said, Go not down into Egypt; dwell in the land which I shall tell thee of:

3 Sojourn in this land, and I will be with thee, and will bless thee; for unto thee, and unto thy seed, I will give all these countries, and I will perform the oath which I sware unto Abraham thy father;

4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;

5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.


What the passage actually is about is that, God instructing Isaac not to go to Egypt, and dwell in the land which God shall tell him of, and He will be with Isaac and will do unto Isaac what God said He will do in verses 3-4, and that, because of Abraham's faithfulness to Him.

Would you be humble enough to be corrected, just like when you were corrected about your error regarding justification of sin?

Quote from: GB
Quote from: Michael
Quote from: GB
Is the Christ that said "Why do you call ME Lord, and do not the things I say" the same Christ which said to Abram, "Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee: Did Abram obey or not?
It was not Jesus Christ, but is YHVH or YHWH, who said unto Abram, "Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee" (Gen. 12:1). It was Jesus Christ, that said "And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?"(Luke 6:46).
You didn't answer the question. In Your Religion, Was the God that talked with Abram, the same God that became the man Jesus?

Aren't you being dishonest here? I did answer your question (see quotebox). Obviously you are. That's a shame.

Now, you changed the question. And my answer to that is Yes, in the sense that there is but one God. 

Quote from: GB
Quote from: Michael
After God had chosen Abraham, God gave him a commandment (Gen. 12:1). Next God gave him promises (Gen.12: 2-3). After which, Abraham believed Him who spoke to him, that is, God. Believing, Abraham in hope, obeyed God's command unto him.
God called Abram to deny himself first Michael. Without Abram's choice to obey the call, there would be no new land for Abram, no promise to Abram. God would have called others until someone obeyed the call to deny themselves, and brought them into a new land, and gave them the promise HE offered to Abram.

Not to my reading of Genesis 12:1-4, GB. I don't deny that when faith came to Abraham, Abraham denied himself and obeyed God. But God's election of him among other men in his time, that God let His voice be heard by him, necessarily came first. To say otherwise is clearly foolishness, if not, hardheadedness.

You like us to believe, yet again, that Abraham could have not obeyed God, and in such case God would have called others until someone obeyed, suggesting the possibility of God failing in Abraham. I have rebuked you once on this and here will do so again. If you believe that Abraham could have rejected God, then you give more weight to Abraham's will power than to God's power. We should not forget who God is, and should in no case belittle His power and wisdom. This is all because of the wrong idea about man's free will and power to choose, as though it is over and above that of God's, and as though man truly has the power to resist what God had purposely willed to accomplish. I asked this question to you:

If God had chosen you to be a vessel for His purpose, and spoke to you as He did to Abraham, or to Moses, or to Paul, would you say you could reject and resist God and not do what He tells you to do? Even the hardheaded Pharaoh of Egypt was not able to resist God.

Quote from: GB
God knew what choice Abram would make because HE knows the end from the beginning. But Abram didn't. Abram made the choice to obey God of his own free will. This is why God Chose to give HIM the Promises.

And God Himself tells you this. "today, if you hear HIS Voice, harden not your heart". "Do the works of Abraham".

Sure, we can always say that about God's omniscience. But you seem to not know the implications of your position there. One implication is that, God knew Adam and Eve will sin. With your line of reasoning, it can be argued, in same way you argued about Abraham, that God knew what choice Adam and Eve would make because He knows the end from the beginning. Adam and Eve made the choice to disobey God of their own free will, that is why God chose to create them and give them the commandment. That is just one among the many and more complicated implications of your position.
« Last Edit: Tue Feb 04, 2020 - 03:01:24 by Michael2012 »

Offline Michael2012

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Re: The Jewish Sabbath .......
« Reply #67 on: Mon Feb 03, 2020 - 07:29:01 »
Quote from: Michael
According to you Faith and obedience are the same thing. According to scriptures, Abraham's faith came first. So that, by faith, Abraham obeyed God.

That's right, Abraham's obedient work showed his faith in God. And that answers the question GB. He had to have faith in the first place so that there is faith to be shown by his obedient work.
Without the Command, there is neither an opportunity for faith, nor the opportunity for obedience. God calls us first. "today if you hear His Voice, harden not your hearts." Our work determines the reward.

This is just repeating your argument, which I had already addressed in my posts. So I will not here repeat myself.

Quote from: GB
This is God's Truth throughout the entire Bible.

Gen. 4:7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.

Gen. 26:5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

Duet 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

Mark 8:34 And when he had called the people unto him with his disciples also, he said unto them, Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, (FIRST) and take up his cross, and follow me.

Rom. 2:7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

2 Tim. 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

Rev. 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

From front to back, the same teaching. The only thing that changed is the manner in which these truths are administered, and the way in which our sins are atoned for.

What you apparently wanted for us to see is man's work, which is obviously what your religion is all about. That's very clear as day now.

Let me share to you some truth in scriptures:

Romans 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.[

2 Thessalonians 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

1 John 4:10 Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.


Quote from: GB
If we want to be Abraham's Children, and heirs to the promise, we must follow the Instructions of the True Savior. Not the Pope, but the Christ Jesus. And He said those who do the "WORKS" of Abraham are heirs to the promise. And what did Abram do when God called him? "So Abram departed, as the LORD had spoken unto him". And God said "BECAUSE" of this, God gave the promise.
Again, you are so into works, so much so, that you seem to make it appear that you get to be Abraham's children and heirs to the promise by your works. But concerning Abraham, this is what scriptures says:

Galatians 3:6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness. 7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.

And scriptures says:

Romans 4:4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.



Offline Michael2012

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Re: The Jewish Sabbath .......
« Reply #68 on: Mon Feb 03, 2020 - 08:14:38 »
Quote from: Michael
To my present knowledge, I know no such instance that God told Isaac why He blessed Abraham. But if there was, needles to say, God did not lie, for it is impossible for God to lie.

Are you referring to Gen. 26:1-5? If you are, then you are mistaken. Read again the passage.
Gen. 26:1 And there was a famine in the land, beside the first famine that was in the days of Abraham. And Isaac went unto Abimelech king of the Philistines unto Gerar.

2 And the LORD appeared unto him, and said, Go not down into Egypt; dwell in the land which I shall tell thee of: (Command)

3 Sojourn in this land, and I will be with thee, and will bless thee; for unto thee, and unto thy seed, I will give all these countries, and I will perform the oath which I sware unto Abraham thy father;

4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;

5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

6 And Isaac dwelt in Gerar: (As the Lord had instructed him. Isaac did the "works of Abraham".)

Had Isaac not followed the command of God, would he still be blessed? The Pharisees thought so. Do you?

I can see that you accept and don't dispute the truth that the passage is not about God saying to Isaac why He blessed Abraham. That's good.

Your new question, "Had Isaac not followed the command of God, would he still be blessed?".

I think God would have His way so that He can bring upon Isaac, and so then upon Abraham, that which He hath spoken and promised. In other words, I don't see the possibility of God failing to bring upon Isaac and Abraham, that which He promised. Should Isaac had not followed the command of God there, that will not stop God from fulfilling His promise nor thwart it. The most that may result out of that is Isaac experience the discipline of God unto his being obedient.   

Offline GB

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Re: The Jewish Sabbath .......
« Reply #69 on: Mon Feb 03, 2020 - 09:17:31 »
 author=RB link=topic=105259.msg1055155601#msg1055155601 date=1580671752]
Quote
True to your form, you never address my points in the post to you~with a few words addressed to Amo. I know well WHY we have the OT first and then the NT. I know perfectly why the law formally was given to Israel, even though the world had been here for almost ten thousand years~From Adam to the flood was 6000.... from the flood to Abraham another three thousand; Abraham to Moses around 650 years; Moses to Christ to Christ, around 1500 years~ all are around about numbers (but very close)  using the genealogy in Genesis 5, and 10 along with other recorded for us in Matthew 1 and Luke three to determine this~We KNOW that God laws in germ form were given to Adam until Moses when at which point the law was given in a broad scope, yet the same laws summed up in the table of stones that God wrote and gave to Moses for Israel, and many other such laws were added only until the time of reformation which took place during the days of the apostles of Jesus Christ.

How convenient for you Red. "We KNOW that God laws in germ form were given to Adam until Moses".

What great religious man did you get this philosophy from? "Germ form" Wow! Are men infected with God's Law? I guess for a person who preaches they are "Beggarly Elements" this is to be expected.

I am always fascinated by the efforts the mainstream preachers of Christ's time went to preserve their own religious doctrines and traditions of men. But they pale in comparison to modern preachers. Why didn't they just examine the scriptures Jesus and the Prophets pointed out to them. It seems so simple.

But then I remember, God brought a liar into the garden to test Eve, to see if she would choose God's Words or the words of the liar. So also will He require all men to choose between HIS Judgments and lies. So the mainstream preachers of HIS time were there to test people. Those who choose God's Word over the religions of the land are given the promise. As Jesus said "Offenses must come".


Quote
Much of Israel's laws that governed their worship of God, were ONLY shadows and types imposed on them until Jesus Christ, and then they were no longer needed. The law was given by God to be a SCHOOLMASTER to teach us our need of Christ's faith and righteousness for our justification before the law of God. Once we learn from this good, holy and spiritual schoolmaster, then we are not under him ANY LONGER as a schoolmaster.

I am always fascinated by your willful refusal to accept, discuss or examine the clear separation God made between the Levites and Israel on Mt. Sinai. Along with the clear separation between the Levitical Priesthood Covenant God made with Levi on Israel's behalf and the Judgments of God.

The Pharisees were not trying to get folks to honor God's Judgments. Red, this is an insidious lie that Jesus exposes with every Word HE spoke concerning them. Jesus HIMSELF said they had omitted them from their religion. They rejected the Law of Mercy, they omitted the law of Faith, along with God's Judgments. But they refused to accept the Messiah had come which according to Jer. 31, signaled the end of the Levitical Priesthood with it's administration of God's Judgments they had corrupted and "works of the Law" for atonement of sins.

Why do you willfully ignore such truths? It is truly an offence.

The Law that the Pharisees were trying to force on the people for justification, was the Levitical Priesthood. They promoted the religious belief that before sins could be atoned for, it was required that a man go to the Levite Priest, who would them perform exclusive Levitical Priesthood "Works of the Law" for atonement and justification. "You must do the Law of Moses".

The LAW that was "ADDED" "till the SEED should come" was not Love God and Love your neighbor, or any of God's Judgments which are eternal. Cain and Able and Abraham all knew these judgments of God. Why do you think Abraham pleaded on Sodom's behalf? Why was Abimelech quick to point out his innocence? He knew the judgment, and the punishment.

The teaching that God's Judgments, including His Judgment about what day is Holy, and what is clean, were unknown to the folks in Genesis is just another lie from the serpent.

These Laws/Judgments of God bring us closer to God as they are HIS judgments, but they didn't lead Israel to the Christ and HIS Sacrifice for their sins. The Levitical Priesthood with it's sacrificial "Works of the Law" were designed to bring them to the Christ, to show them what He would do for them "after those days". This is the Law that the Jews were still pushing on folks. This is the Law that was added, that provided for two things. #1. How God's Judgments were delivered to the people. #2. How transgression of these judgments were atoned for.

This is the school master Paul spoke of that was "Added" Till the Seed should come. Not the 2 greatest commandments and the law and prophets which define them.

The mainstream preachers of Jesus' time refused to accept the end of their Priesthood, which was to lead them to Christ. They had corrupted it and created their own religious surrounding it, As Jesus pointed out in Matt. 23.

You preaching that God's Judgments were to lead us to Christ, then HIS Judgments are done away with is the lie. It is the offense.


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We will ALWAYS be under the law of God in the sense of it being our knowledge of sin and how to please God and to make us LONG for deliverance from this BODY OF SIN and DEATH that we all live in.  GB, putting the law of God in your hands is like putting a AutoMag .44 Magnum in the hands of a serial killer.

What you mean is, in your religion, now that God has come in the flesh, we are only to be hearers of God's judgments, and not actually doers.

It's the same lie the serpent told Eve.