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Offline Amo

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Re: The Jewish Sabbath .......
« Reply #105 on: Fri Mar 06, 2020 - 08:42:47 »
That is what is gobbledegook Amo, that it is now the Christian who says what law is for the children of Israel only and what is for all men. Is that not too convenient for you to say, to support your belief, when clearly, not only is the commandment written in Exodus 35:3 is for Israel alone, but all the laws, commandments, ordinances, statutes, regulations, rules, and judgments, that God gave in covenant to them, and not to the Egyptians nor any other people on earth, through Moses.

If we ask a non Christian Jew, to whom did God gave the ten commandments and applies, was it to the children of Israel only or to the whole world, what do you honestly think will their answer be? Will they give you their personal opinion or will they point you to their scriptures where it says that God gave it in covenant to the children of Israel, and not to the Egyptians nor any other people on earth, through Moses?   

So, you apply the 4th commandment of God to the children of Israel upon you and binds yourself to keep it, and is now the one who regulates it according to whatever you think is fitting. Nothing wrong in that, I have to say. But certainly, the Jew would say the opposite.

Yes you say it is not rocket science, yet apparently you won't answer the simple question, how do you keep the fourth commandment? Why not tell? What are you afraid of? Are you afraid that some in your congregation might not agree on how you are keeping it?
 

Yes my argument is that the old covenant, (meaning all that constitutes it including of course the ten commandments, all the laws, commandments, ordinances, statutes, regulations, rules, and judgments, that God gave in covenant to them, the sanctuary and all that pertains to the worship service, Levitical priesthood and all that pertains to the office of the priests,) was made obsolete and was replaced by the new covenant whose mediator is Jesus Christ. You claim that there are parts of the covenant that were not made obsolete and changed, so that, your argument is that only part of the old covenant (Mosaic) was made obsolete and not really the entire old covenant (Mosaic), which is contrary to scriptures. For the covenant in Christ is not a revised covenant of the covenant that God made with the children of Israel in the day when God took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, with Moses as mediator of the, but is a new one in great lot of sense. The old being but the shadow, and the new being the very substance of the shadow. If you know the difference between a shadow and the very substance, then you will understand the great difference between the old and the new covenants, and would come to understand what becomes of the shadow covenant and see how better off the new covenant is. 

My argument is that, the commandments given by God to Israel written by Himself on tablets of stones, and those He gave to them through Moses to write in a book, are equally God's laws, and not Moses'.Your argument on the other hand is that there is difference between the commandments given by God to Israel written by Himself on tablets of stone, and those He gave to them through Moses to write in a book. 

So, your argument there does not refute my argument. And whether there is difference between the commandments given by God to Israel written by Himself on tablets of stone, and those He gave to them through Moses to write in a book, it does not take away the truth that it is to the children of Israel that God gave them in covenant with, and not with the people of Egypt nor with any other peoples of the earth. So much so that, if I'm not mistaken, any one who is not a natural physical descendant of Israel, who wanted to be in covenant with God and be under the Law of the covenant, is required to become circumcised, as though were native born and become a citizen of the nation of Israel and no longer strangers to the commonwealth of Israel.

How is it that you cannot accept the scriptures in Hebrews 8 which says that the covenant that God made with the children of Israel in the day when God took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, with Moses as mediator, had been made obsolete, having been replaced by the new covenant in Christ? It's not only some parts or constituents of the covenant that was replaced and changed Amo. It's the entire covenant, including all that constitutes it including the ten commandments, all the laws, commandments, ordinances, statutes, regulations, rules, and judgments, that God gave in covenant to them, the sanctuary and all that pertains to the worship service, Levitical priesthood and all that pertains to the office of the priests. 

The Acts 15 passage surely does not refute the truth (for truth does not refute truth)  that the covenant that God made with the children of Israel in the day when God took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, with Moses as mediator, had been made obsolete, having been replaced by the new covenant in Christ. In fact you'll find that it reinforces it, if you'll only read Acts 15 carefully. Do not forget to consider what the issue is about at the time, that is, the salvation issue (Acts 15:1,5) concerning the need for the Gentile converts to the Christian faith to be circumcised in the flesh, and the requirement for them to keep the law of Moses.

Read this passage in Acts 15 carefully and thoughtfully: 24 Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:

Can you not see what the apostles and elders with the whole church at Jerusalem are saying there? That they gave no such commandment as follows: "Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law". They gave no commandment to the Gentile converts to keep the law. What law, but the old covenant law, the Law of Moses? So, why do you now seem to not able to accept this and even go against it?   
 
Acts 15:28 For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things; 29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.

So, why these instructions to the Gentile Christians then? The answer is in Acts 15. It is for peace's sake among the church, to keep the peace among Jew and Gentile believers. It was obviously temporary in nature and was for the settlement of a then present day dispute. Temporary until there will be no more dispute on the matter within the church, in the same way that there is not any dispute on the said matter between the chosen and inspired apostles of Christ.

Don't you notice that these things of the law, such as these things they instructed there, the abstaining from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication, are taken by the apostles and elders as being BURDENS? Think about that Amo, as to what is the implication of that on the Law of Moses.

Of course the NT scriptures admonish all to keep all the laws of God. For the sake of argument, even if for example there is not an NT scriptures that says that, the Holy Spirit who dwells in the Christians tells him the same thing. The issue is not that, but what laws the Christians or the new covenant people of God are to keep and walk their life according to, here on earth? They are definitely not the Law of Moses, but the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus. And how are they to keep it? Logically not according to the letter of the law written in book of the covenant (Mosaic) nor according to the works of the law of Moses, but according to the law written in their mind and heart, and according to the Spirit, carried out in faith and in spirit and in truth.
 

I don't determine as you seem to say I do.

By grace Christians are saved through faith, not that of themselves, not of works. They are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that they should walk in them. 

What distinction Amo, besides the manner on how God had given them to the children of Israel, that would support your position that this part of the old covenant, the ten commandments are not included with the rest of the covenant law as having been replaced by the new covenant?

Amo, would you say that the law of circumcision in the OT is done away with? If yes, why do you say so? If no, why do you say so?

Yes my friend, be careful. Don't forget the context in that passage.

No end to the gobbledegook. Your wasting your time Michael. I will never ignore vast amounts of scripture which point out just exactly what has changed from old to new covenant, and what has not, because of your personal views regarding the same. You simply are not the authority I study and listen to. The scriptures are quite conclusively clear, that the ten commandments have not been done away with, save as that which condemns the sinner for those in Christ alone. They are still the standard which now is not just in written form, but was presented to humanity in bodily form and action in the life, death, and resurrection of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. He who created and sustains us all, also conclusively called all to keep His commandments, which are the commandments of God, because He verily is God. Ramble on bro, you cannot hide the scriptures call for all to keep God's commandments right up to the last book and chapter of the bible. Which book is said to be the Revelation of Jesus Christ, by Jesus Christ Himself. I am settled into this truth, as you are no doubt settled into that which you have chosen. So be it. May our characters be formed according to the same. God will rightly judge between us. May He have mercy upon all of our souls.

Rev 12:17  And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Rev 14:12  Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

Rev 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. 13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. 14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. 15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie. 16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.

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Re: The Jewish Sabbath .......
« Reply #105 on: Fri Mar 06, 2020 - 08:42:47 »

Offline Michael2012

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Re: The Jewish Sabbath .......
« Reply #106 on: Sat Mar 07, 2020 - 13:05:16 »
No end to the gobbledegook. Your wasting your time Michael. I will never ignore vast amounts of scripture which point out just exactly what has changed from old to new covenant, and what has not, because of your personal views regarding the same. You simply are not the authority I study and listen to. The scriptures are quite conclusively clear, that the ten commandments have not been done away with, save as that which condemns the sinner for those in Christ alone. They are still the standard which now is not just in written form, but was presented to humanity in bodily form and action in the life, death, and resurrection of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. He who created and sustains us all, also conclusively called all to keep His commandments, which are the commandments of God, because He verily is God. Ramble on bro, you cannot hide the scriptures call for all to keep God's commandments right up to the last book and chapter of the bible. Which book is said to be the Revelation of Jesus Christ, by Jesus Christ Himself. I am settled into this truth, as you are no doubt settled into that which you have chosen. So be it. May our characters be formed according to the same. God will rightly judge between us. May He have mercy upon all of our souls.

Rev 12:17  And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Rev 14:12  Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

Rev 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. 13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. 14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. 15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie. 16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.

If you believe all scriptures, how is it that you refuse to accept and believe the scriptures in Hebrews 8 which says that the covenant that God made with the children of Israel in the day when God took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, with Moses as mediator, had been made obsolete, having been replaced by the new covenant in Christ, not only some parts or constituents of the covenant, but the covenant as a whole? It's not me saying that the former covenant was replaced by a new covenant, but scriptures. Well, I think I know why you don't accept and believe those scriptures.

If you believe all scriptures, how is it that you refuse to accept and believe the scriptures in Acts 15, that the apostles gave no such commandment to converts as follows: "Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law".   
 
If you believe all scriptures, how is it that you refuse to accept and believe the scriptures in Acts 15, that the things of the law, such as the things they instructed there, the abstaining from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication, are taken by the apostles and elders as being BURDENS?

And Amo, why do you not answer the question: would you say that the law of circumcision in the OT is done away with? If yes, why do you say so? If no, why do you say so?

Offline Amo

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Re: The Jewish Sabbath .......
« Reply #107 on: Sat Mar 07, 2020 - 18:54:04 »
If you believe all scriptures, how is it that you refuse to accept and believe the scriptures in Hebrews 8 which says that the covenant that God made with the children of Israel in the day when God took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, with Moses as mediator, had been made obsolete, having been replaced by the new covenant in Christ, not only some parts or constituents of the covenant, but the covenant as a whole? It's not me saying that the former covenant was replaced by a new covenant, but scriptures. Well, I think I know why you don't accept and believe those scriptures.

If you believe all scriptures, how is it that you refuse to accept and believe the scriptures in Acts 15, that the apostles gave no such commandment to converts as follows: "Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law".   
 
If you believe all scriptures, how is it that you refuse to accept and believe the scriptures in Acts 15, that the things of the law, such as the things they instructed there, the abstaining from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication, are taken by the apostles and elders as being BURDENS?

And Amo, why do you not answer the question: would you say that the law of circumcision in the OT is done away with? If yes, why do you say so? If no, why do you say so?

First and foremost, the scriptures I shared with you and you quoted above are from the new covenant New Testament, which itself up to the last book and chapter identifies God's own as those who keep His commandments and have the faith of Jesus. As I have already stated, the new covenant scriptures address what has changed or been done away with or not in this new covenant era. You simply refuse to acknowledge that the new covenant scriptures still hold the commandments of God up as the standard, insisting they are part of what was done away with, apparently choosing to ignore these scriptures.

The exact context of Hebrews 8 is in relation to the sanctuary, sacrifices, and high priestly ministry of the old covenant being replaced by Jesus Christ the true sacrifice and LAMB OF GOD, our true new covenant High Priest in the heavenly sanctuary built without hands, and the corner stone of the new covenant temple of God. Even in these scriptures, it is the old covenant that is done away with, not specifically God's law or commandments as you wish to suggest apparently. To the contrary, these scriptures reference to the law is concerning establishing God's law by writing them upon our hearts, not just tables of stone. This is hardly doing away with them, but definitely establishing them. Just as the Apostle Paul testifies concerning one of the main purposes of Christ's life for us -

Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: 4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. 8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. 9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. 10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

God's law has, does, and will continue to condemn all who choose to remain outside of the salvation provided in Jesus Christ alone. Those only who have accepted the atoning sacrifice of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ will be saved from the condemnation of God's law, because the authority of that law has never been nullified. Christ's own are and have been admonished by Christ Himself and His Apostles to keep God's commandments in this new covenant era. You simply refuse this straight testimony because you do not want to keep one of God's commandments. Unless of course you do not want to keep others as well, I do not know. How can one who is supposed to have God's law written upon their heart, not want to keep it?

As far as circumcision goes I have already shared scripture from the Apostle Paul addressing this issue for the new covenant. Why do you reject his testimony?

Rom 2:23 Thou that makest thy boast in the law, dost thou dishonor God through breaking the law? 24 For, “The name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles through you,” as it is written. 25 For circumcision verily profiteth if thou keep the law; but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision. 26 Therefore if the Uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision? 27 And shall not uncircumcision, which is by nature, if it fulfill the law, judge thee, who having the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law? 28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh. 29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly, and whose circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit and not in the letter, and whose praise is not from men, but from God.(KJ21)

What law is the above scripture referring to which the uncircumcised can keep which will be counted as circumcision? Is it not the law or commandments of God as Paul teaches elsewhere? Yes it is. Paul differentiates the two in verse 27 when he states that the Jew has the letter of God's law, and circumcision. Then points out that true circumcision which is a sign that one is God's, is of the heart and not the letter. That is to say, the one who actually fulfills the righteousness of the law is truly circumcised of the spirit and not just the letter. Again this is about establishing God's law and commandments, not doing away with them as you wrongly conclude. Thus do you refuse to make any difference between the law given to humanity directly by the mouth and finger of God, and those meant to change over time and circumstance such as those given to literal Israel of the old covenant by the hand and mouth of Moses, such as circumcision. As Paul plainly testifies in the following scriptures.

1 For 7:18 Is any man called, being circumcised? Let him not become uncircumcised. Is any called, being uncircumcised? Let him not be circumcised. 19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but what matters is the keeping of the commandments of God. 20 Let every man abide in the same calling as when he was called.(KJ21)

Why do you reject these new covenant scriptural teachings and others I have already shared with you, and wrongly divide other scriptures to contradict their testimony? Is it not because you do not wish to keep one or more of the commandments of God?

Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. 19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Why do you reject the above testimony of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ who is verily God? So be it.

Offline Michael2012

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Re: The Jewish Sabbath .......
« Reply #108 on: Sun Mar 08, 2020 - 04:03:16 »
Quote from: Michael
If you believe all scriptures, how is it that you refuse to accept and believe the scriptures in Hebrews 8 which says that the covenant that God made with the children of Israel in the day when God took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, with Moses as mediator, had been made obsolete, having been replaced by the new covenant in Christ, not only some parts or constituents of the covenant, but the covenant as a whole? It's not me saying that the former covenant was replaced by a new covenant, but scriptures. Well, I think I know why you don't accept and believe those scriptures.

If you believe all scriptures, how is it that you refuse to accept and believe the scriptures in Acts 15, that the apostles gave no such commandment to converts as follows: "Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law".   
 
If you believe all scriptures, how is it that you refuse to accept and believe the scriptures in Acts 15, that the things of the law, such as the things they instructed there, the abstaining from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication, are taken by the apostles and elders as being BURDENS?

And Amo, why do you not answer the question: would you say that the law of circumcision in the OT is done away with? If yes, why do you say so? If no, why do you say so?
First and foremost, the scriptures I shared with you and you quoted above are from the new covenant New Testament, which itself up to the last book and chapter identifies God's own as those who keep His commandments and have the faith of Jesus. As I have already stated, the new covenant scriptures address what has changed or been done away with or not in this new covenant era. You simply refuse to acknowledge that the new covenant scriptures still hold the commandments of God up as the standard, insisting they are part of what was done away with, apparently choosing to ignore these scriptures.

The exact context of Hebrews 8 is in relation to the sanctuary, sacrifices, and high priestly ministry of the old covenant being replaced by Jesus Christ the true sacrifice and LAMB OF GOD, our true new covenant High Priest in the heavenly sanctuary built without hands, and the corner stone of the new covenant temple of God. Even in these scriptures, it is the old covenant that is done away with, not specifically God's law or commandments as you wish to suggest apparently. To the contrary, these scriptures reference to the law is concerning establishing God's law by writing them upon our hearts, not just tables of stone. This is hardly doing away with them, but definitely establishing them.

First, I do not ignore NT scriptures Amo. It is that I believe them that brings me to this argument. On the opposite, it is you who ignore scriptures, if not, read them to mean what you say. A clear example is that the OT and the NT says that it is the covenant that will be made new. But you want them to mean that, it is not really the covenant, but only most part of it. That's not rightly dividing the word, changing what scriptures meant to say, and there is the problem.

I'll show you. Prior to the coming of Christ, this is what scriptures says:

Jer. 31: 31 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:
33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.


What will be made new? It is the covenant that God made with the children of Israel when God took them out of the land of Egypt. So, it's clearly the covenant, not only some part of it. What is this covenant to be made new? It's in your Bible, and it includes the ten commandments and all that is written in the book of the law, which are the covenant laws (These covenant laws, you separated and make it appear, as not part of the covenant). Also, in this covenant, is included the the sanctuary, sacrifices, and high priestly ministry. The OT people acknowledged and knew the covenant includes all of that Amo.

Read Jer. 31:33, it says "this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts..". Do you not see? I have boldenned them for you. In making the covenant, what is the very first thing involved and included? That's right, the giving and writing of the LAW, the covenant Law. It is not I who says the law are part of the covenant Amo. It is scriptures. Why would you not want to acknowledge that and seems to suggest that the law is separate from the covenant or not part of it? 

That is the OT scriptures that the NT scriptures in Hebrews 8 says had come to pass. While NT scriptures speaks in detail about some of those which were changed, it does not mean that those which the NT did not speak in detail were not changed or were not part of the covenant. Such conclusion is definitely erroneous. That's not rightly dividing the word.

So, in the new covenant, God writes His Law in minds and hearts. If you claim to be in the new covenant, then you would certainly know what God had written in your heart. And considering what you have been saying, what is clear to me that is written in your heart are the ten commandments. The others, if there is more, I don't know unless you tell. And by that, you take that as to mean that the ten commandments were not done away with, even while such position stands contrary to scriptures. That's not rightly dividing the word.

Hebrews 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

It's hard apparently for you, and is unthinkable for you that the ten commandments were done away with by that. But that is the truth. It is not as though, when they are said to have been made old and done away with, that they were not made new, changed with a better one, and far much better I have to point out. From shadows to the substance. Notice these things. The Levitical priesthood was done away with, but not without putting a better priesthood ~ the eternal priesthood of Jesus Christ. The system for the atonement for sin was done away with, but not without the putting of a better one ~ atonement by the offering of a better sacrifice, a once and for all sacrifice for sin. The earthly sanctuary was done away with, but not without putting a better one ~ a heavenly sanctuary. The Old covenant Law (including the ten commandments) was done away with, but not without putting a better Law ~ the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus. Even the promised land, an earthly country, to a much better one ~ a heavenly country. From shadow to the substance.

You seemed so attached to the ten commandments and other OT laws perhaps, that you seem to prefer them over the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus. So, as it is then, you have the ten commandments and some undisclosed OT laws given by God to the children of Israel as to be what is written in your mind and heart. You walked according to that law. On the other hand, what is written in my mind and heart is the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus. I walk according to that law. That is where we differ the most.   
 
Quote from: Amo
Just as the Apostle Paul testifies concerning one of the main purposes of Christ's life for us -

Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: 4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. 8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. 9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. 10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

God's law has, does, and will continue to condemn all who choose to remain outside of the salvation provided in Jesus Christ alone. Those only who have accepted the atoning sacrifice of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ will be saved from the condemnation of God's law, because the authority of that law has never been nullified. Christ's own are and have been admonished by Christ Himself and His Apostles to keep God's commandments in this new covenant era. You simply refuse this straight testimony because you do not want to keep one of God's commandments. Unless of course you do not want to keep others as well, I do not know. How can one who is supposed to have God's law written upon their heart, not want to keep it?

That's right, "God's law has, does, and will continue to condemn all who choose to remain outside of the salvation provided in Jesus Christ alone." But are you one of them? The Christian is not among them right? And so, God's law will not condemn the Christian. Why? Exactly because the Christian is not under the law. To the Christian, the law is done away with.

About the keeping of God's law, no Christian would say to not keep the law of God. We should, for a lot good reasons. That is not an issue. The issue is, what is God's Law in the New Covenant. What we believe that is, is what we should keep and walk according to. You have the ten commandments and others, I have the law of the Spirit. Do you want to know about the law of the Spirit? You want to keep the shadow, I keep the substance. An example of a shadow you keep, "Thou shalt not commit adultery." And the substance I keep, "whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart." Another shadow "Thou shalt not kill." The substance, "Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer". If you'll observe, the shadow is work, and the substance is spirit. As such, your law is of works and my law is of the spirit. That is the big difference between us. 

Quote from: Amo
As far as circumcision goes I have already shared scripture from the Apostle Paul addressing this issue for the new covenant. Why do you reject his testimony?

Rom 2:23 Thou that makest thy boast in the law, dost thou dishonor God through breaking the law? 24 For, “The name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles through you,” as it is written. 25 For circumcision verily profiteth if thou keep the law; but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision. 26 Therefore if the Uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision? 27 And shall not uncircumcision, which is by nature, if it fulfill the law, judge thee, who having the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law? 28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh. 29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly, and whose circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit and not in the letter, and whose praise is not from men, but from God.(KJ21)

What law is the above scripture referring to which the uncircumcised can keep which will be counted as circumcision? Is it not the law or commandments of God as Paul teaches elsewhere? Yes it is. Paul differentiates the two in verse 27 when he states that the Jew has the letter of God's law, and circumcision. Then points out that true circumcision which is a sign that one is God's, is of the heart and not the letter. That is to say, the one who actually fulfills the righteousness of the law is truly circumcised of the spirit and not just the letter. Again this is about establishing God's law and commandments, not doing away with them as you wrongly conclude. Thus do you refuse to make any difference between the law given to humanity directly by the mouth and finger of God, and those meant to change over time and circumstance such as those given to literal Israel of the old covenant by the hand and mouth of Moses, such as circumcision. As Paul plainly testifies in the following scriptures.

1 For 7:18 Is any man called, being circumcised? Let him not become uncircumcised. Is any called, being uncircumcised? Let him not be circumcised. 19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but what matters is the keeping of the commandments of God. 20 Let every man abide in the same calling as when he was called.(KJ21)

Of course I don't reject the testimony of Paul. If there is anything I reject, it is not scriptures, but other's wrong interpretation of it. So, we have those scriptures. But my question to you is, would you say that the law of circumcision in the OT is done away with? And because you gave those scriptures as your answer, then I would be guessing what it is you are saying with that scriptures, making the exchange more difficult. It seems to me your answer to my question is yes. And if so, was it not because it was part of the covenant that was made new? Now, what is the significance of circumcision in the Old covenant? Is it not a token of the covenant between God and Abraham and is a seal of the righteousness of the faith that Abraham had when he was yet uncircumcised? What does it mean to be uncircumcised but that he does not take part of the covenant? The Israelites were circumcised, and so they were part of the covenant between God and Abraham. What then is wrong with being circumcised, that it was done away with? Nothing at all, yet it was done away with, right? In the same sense, the Law is good and there was nothing wrong with it, but was done away with. There's nothing to be offended about that. They were done away with, not because they are no good, but because, the substance for which they are a shadow of, had come. They were done away with to be changed by the substance that they foreshadow, the realities, which were far better of course. The circumcision of the flesh was replaced by the circumcision that is of the heart, in the spirit, by Jesus Christ.

The very scriptures you quoted says of circumcision "For circumcision verily profiteth if thou keep the law". What law is in view here, but the Old Covenant Law which includes the ten commandments? Paul says that circumcision has value if you keep the law. Clearly, circumcision binds one to keep the law. Paul made this clear elsewhere saying that, one who lets himself be circumcised, he is obligated to obey the whole law. So, circumcision is good, right? For it is about keeping the law, and there's definitely nothing wrong with that. It's about keeping God's laws, the ten commandments especially. But then, Paul said elsewhere to the Christians, if you let yourselves be circumcised, Christ will be of no value to you at all. Ask yourself this question, Why will Christ be of no value to the Christian who lets himself be circumcised, when one who becomes circumcised is to keep the Law?

Quote from: Amo
Why do you reject these new covenant scriptural teachings and others I have already shared with you, and wrongly divide other scriptures to contradict their testimony? Is it not because you do not wish to keep one or more of the commandments of God?

Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. 19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Why do you reject the above testimony of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ who is verily God? So be it.

As I said, I and no Christian I believe would not want to keep God's Law. That is not the issue. As I said, the issue is, what is God's Law in the New Covenant, for the Christian. The Christian should seek to keep God's law in the New covenant, and not that of the Old covenant.

Definitely, Jesus did not come to destroy the Law or the prophets, but to fulfill.
Concerning the Law, Jesus said "verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled."

A question for you, had not Jesus fulfilled the law?

Yes, I believe he sure had. If you say otherwise, then what is it that Jesus had not yet fulfilled in the law? And tell us why Paul said "For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth."

Offline Michael2012

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Re: The Jewish Sabbath .......
« Reply #109 on: Sun Mar 08, 2020 - 04:08:26 »
Amo, why had you ignored again this part of my post to you? I hope you can address them this time.

If you believe all scriptures, how is it that you refuse to accept and believe the scriptures in Acts 15, that the apostles gave no such commandment to converts as follows: "Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law".   
 
If you believe all scriptures, how is it that you refuse to accept and believe the scriptures in Acts 15, that the things of the law, such as the things they instructed there, the abstaining from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication, are taken by the apostles and elders as being BURDENS?

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Re: The Jewish Sabbath .......
« Reply #109 on: Sun Mar 08, 2020 - 04:08:26 »



Offline GB

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Re: The Jewish Sabbath .......
« Reply #110 on: Sun Mar 08, 2020 - 07:57:41 »
 author=Michael2012 link=topic=105259.msg1055157457#msg1055157457 date=1583658506]
Amo, why had you ignored again this part of my post to you? I hope you can address them this time.

Quote
If you believe all scriptures, how is it that you refuse to accept and believe the scriptures in Acts 15, that the apostles gave no such commandment to converts as follows: "Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law".   

What evidence do you have that the Jews were following and teaching God's Commandments? What if Amo also read these Word's of the Christ and believed them?

Matt. 15:7 Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying,

8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me. 9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

The Jews were teaching Law, but according to the Christ Himself, it wasn't God's Law, it was their own religious law. (You can't eat an apple without first washing your hands a certain way, you can't take a walk on the Christ's Holy Sabbath and pick a blackberry to eat, etc.)

Acts 15:10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?

What was this yoke? You and "many" who come in Christ's Name, teach this yoke was God's Laws. But Jesus Himself tells us the opposite.

Matt. 23:4 For they (Jews, not God) bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; (Necks) but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers.

So for Amo to believe as you, that this "Yoke" in Acts 15 was God's Commandments, Amo must first reject the Christ's Own Words regarding their teaching. They called their religion "circumcision and the Law of Moses", this is true. But Jesus said; "Did not Moses give you the law, and yet none of you keepeth the law?

And again;

"But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?"

 
Quote
If you believe all scriptures, how is it that you refuse to accept and believe the scriptures in Acts 15,

I know that it is precisely because I believe "ALL Scriptures", that I know the Yoke mentioned that burdens men are not God's Commandments, but doctrines and commandments of men they taught in their religious traditions.

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that the things of the law, such as the things they instructed there, the abstaining from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication, are taken by the apostles and elders as being BURDENS?[/b]

Acts 15:19 Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God: (With ancient religious traditions and commandments of religious men who killed the prophets, Stephen and Jesus)

20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, (God's Commandment) and from fornication, (God's Commandment) and from things strangled, (God's Commandment) and from blood. (God's Commandment)

21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.

They will learn what the Bible actually teaches when it is read on the Sabbath.

Ironically, this is the same instruction Jesus gave to His Disciples and the people before He was killed.

Matt. 23:2 Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:

3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.

Maybe Amo is the one who believes ALL Scripture, and you are the one who refuses to accept the very Word's of the Christ.









Offline Michael2012

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Re: The Jewish Sabbath .......
« Reply #111 on: Sun Mar 08, 2020 - 12:35:40 »
Amo, why had you ignored again this part of my post to you? I hope you can address them this time.

If you believe all scriptures, how is it that you refuse to accept and believe the scriptures in Acts 15, that the apostles gave no such commandment to converts as follows: "Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law".

What evidence do you have that the Jews were following and teaching God's Commandments? What if Amo also read these Word's of the Christ and believed them?

Matt. 15:7 Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying,

8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me. 9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

The Jews were teaching Law, but according to the Christ Himself, it wasn't God's Law, it was their own religious law. (You can't eat an apple without first washing your hands a certain way, you can't take a walk on the Christ's Holy Sabbath and pick a blackberry to eat, etc.)

Acts 15:10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?

What was this yoke? You and "many" who come in Christ's Name, teach this yoke was God's Laws. But Jesus Himself tells us the opposite.

Matt. 23:4 For they (Jews, not God) bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; (Necks) but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers.

So for Amo to believe as you, that this "Yoke" in Acts 15 was God's Commandments, Amo must first reject the Christ's Own Words regarding their teaching. They called their religion "circumcision and the Law of Moses", this is true. But Jesus said; "Did not Moses give you the law, and yet none of you keepeth the law?

And again;

"But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?"

Acts 15:1 And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved. 2 When therefore Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and disputation with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas, and certain other of them, should go up to Jerusalem unto the apostles and elders about this question. 3 And being brought on their way by the church, they passed through Phenice and Samaria, declaring the conversion of the Gentiles: and they caused great joy unto all the brethren. 4 And when they were come to Jerusalem, they were received of the church, and of the apostles and elders, and they declared all things that God had done with them. 5 But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses. 6 And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter.

Circumcision is being required upon the Gentile Christians by the Jewish Christians, saying "Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.". Do you agree with these Jewish Christians mentioned in verse 1? The apostles don't agree with them. So, I don't believe that Gentile Christians need to be circumcised to be saved.

At the church in Jerusalem, Jewish Christians, who were of the Pharisees, believed as the Jewish Christians in verse 1, saying "it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses."

Of course, the apostles don't agree with them. Now, here comes one like the serpent in the garden, with a voice suggesting, the law of Moses mentioned in verse 5 refers not to the commandments of God but to the commandments of men. I'm thankful to God, unlike Eve, I have the Holy Spirit dwelling in me, that I am able to not be deceived by this annoying and persistent voice.

Perhaps, these Jewish Christians of verses 1 and 5, may still have some hang on the teachings of those hypocrites in Matthew 15. But the Jewish apostles, who were inspired and filled with the Holy Spirit, I believe knows the scriptures and so then, the Law of Moses (as given by God to Moses to give to the children of Israel, in covenant). So, the apostles know what they were up against. Don't worry that they might not know what you know. I'm sure they do know more than you know.

Now, regarding what Peter said in verse 10, "Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?", the other voice says the yoke spoken of there refers not to the Law of Moses (as given by God to Moses to give to the children of Israel, in covenant), but to the man-made law of the Pharisees. This lie will be exposed later  in the next related segment.

So, the false commandment coming from the Jewish Christians in verse 1: "Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law". What is circumcision? Paul said of circumcision, "For circumcision verily profiteth if thou keep the law". What law is in view here, but the Law of Moses (as given by God to Moses to give to the children of Israel, in covenant)? The inspired apostle Paul is not referring to the commandments of the Pharisees. Spirit filled Paul says that circumcision has value if you keep the law. Clearly, circumcision binds one to keep the law. Paul made this clear elsewhere saying that, one who lets himself be circumcised, he is obligated to obey the whole law. So, circumcision is good, right? For it is about keeping the law, and there's definitely nothing wrong with that. It's about keeping God's laws, the ten commandments especially. But then, Paul said elsewhere to the Christians, if you let yourselves be circumcised, Christ will be of no value to you at all. Ask yourself this question, Why will Christ be of no value to the Christian who lets himself be circumcised, when one who becomes circumcised is to keep the Law?
 
Quote from: GB
Quote from: Michael
If you believe all scriptures, how is it that you refuse to accept and believe the scriptures in Acts 15,
I know that it is precisely because I believe "ALL Scriptures", that I know the Yoke mentioned that burdens men are not God's Commandments, but doctrines and commandments of men they taught in their religious traditions.

Quote from: Michael
the things of the law, such as the things they instructed there, the abstaining from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication, are taken by the apostles and elders as being BURDENS?[/b]

Acts 15:19 Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God: (With ancient religious traditions and commandments of religious men who killed the prophets, Stephen and Jesus)

20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, (God's Commandment) and from fornication, (God's Commandment) and from things strangled, (God's Commandment) and from blood. (God's Commandment)

21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.

They will learn what the Bible actually teaches when it is read on the Sabbath.

Ironically, this is the same instruction Jesus gave to His Disciples and the people before He was killed.

Matt. 23:2 Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:

3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.

Maybe Amo is the one who believes ALL Scripture, and you are the one who refuses to accept the very Word's of the Christ.

I can see that you have added your voice in parenthesis in Acts 15:19-21.

Here's the content of the letter they wrote and sent to the brethren which are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia.

23 And they wrote letters by them after this manner; The apostles and elders and brethren send greeting unto the brethren which are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia.

24 Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:

25 It seemed good unto us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men unto you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul,

26 Men that have hazarded their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.

27 We have sent therefore Judas and Silas, who shall also tell you the same things by mouth.

28 For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost and to us,, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;

29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.


It's clear, the inspired Spirit filled chosen apostles of Jesus Christ, gave no such commandment as Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law. We understand the reason on this in what Paul said elsewhere in scriptures, that doing so, Christ will be of no value to the Christian who lets himself be circumcised and binds himself to keep the Law.

Those mentioned in verse 29, as were also mentioned in verse 20, you admit and acknowledged to be God's commandments and not the commandments of men of the Pharisees of Matthew 15.

In verse 28, the Holy Spirit and the inspired apostles speaks of those commandments of God mentioned in verse 29 as being burden.
 
But of course you will not accept and believe that. 

And by saying "to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things" suggest that there are more, but that they think it would be too much burden for the Gentile Christians to bear.

Offline beam

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Re: The Jewish Sabbath .......
« Reply #112 on: Mon Mar 09, 2020 - 09:51:37 »
No end to the gobbledegook. Your wasting your time Michael. I will never ignore vast amounts of scripture which point out just exactly what has changed from old to new covenant, and what has not, because of your personal views regarding the same. You simply are not the authority I study and listen to.

Show us that "VAST AMOUNT OF SCRIPTURE" Amo.  It would be very wise to take to heart what Michael wrote instead of clinging to to what the prophet wrote.  Believe me, the prophet has been proven to be false.

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The scriptures are quite conclusively clear, that the ten commandments have not been done away with,
2Cor 3: 6 He has enabled us to be ministers of his new covenant. This is a covenant not of written laws, but of the Spirit. The old written covenant ends in death; but under the new covenant, the Spirit gives life.




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save as that which condemns the sinner for those in Christ alone. They are still the standard which now is not just in written form, but was presented to humanity in bodily form and action in the life, death, and resurrection of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. He who created and sustains us all, also conclusively called all to keep His commandments, which are the commandments of God, because He verily is God. Ramble on bro, you cannot hide the scriptures call for all to keep God's commandments right up to the last book and chapter of the bible. Which book is said to be the Revelation of Jesus Christ, by Jesus Christ Himself. I am settled into this truth, as you are no doubt settled into that which you have chosen. So be it. May our characters be formed according to the same. God will rightly judge between us. May He have mercy upon all of our souls.
God has given many commandments Amo.  I would ask of you to prove that the commands given in the texts below are ten commandment requirements.  I don't see a ten in any of those texts.  I don't believe adding to scripture is allowed now is it?

Rev 12:17  And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Rev 14:12  Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

Rev 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. 13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. 14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. 15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie. 16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.

Offline Amo

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Re: The Jewish Sabbath .......
« Reply #113 on: Fri Mar 13, 2020 - 12:09:45 »
Quote
Show us that "VAST AMOUNT OF SCRIPTURE" Amo.  It would be very wise to take to heart what Michael wrote instead of clinging to to what the prophet wrote.  Believe me, the prophet has been proven to be false.

You have proved nothing false beam, but in your own twisted mind. Show us where I have quoted the prophet you speak of in this thread, or any other not relating exactly to that prophet beam. EGW is your constant cop out and excuse for actual knowledge or defense regarding this and many other issues. You and yours are completely eaten up with her writings, bringing them up constantly as a crutch diversionary tactic when scripture fails your false doctrines, or blatantly contradicts your testimony. I do not use or bring up her writings accepting very rare occasions, you and yours use and bring up her writings in defense of your positions far more than anyone else on these boards, crying the same old lame diversionary tactic, false prophet rants. If you want to see some of the scriptures I was speaking of, start by going back and reading this thread where I have already quoted many of them. I cannot address your willing ignorance of all pertaining to the same you simply deny.

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2Cor 3: 6 He has enabled us to be ministers of his new covenant. This is a covenant not of written laws, but of the Spirit. The old written covenant ends in death; but under the new covenant, the Spirit gives life.

What version of the scriptures is the above, and why did you quote it in red, which is usually associated with the words of Christ Himself? What do you mean by quoting the above beam? Will you now contradict yourself and scripture in unreasonable defense of your false doctrines? You are the one who insists that all old covenant laws and regs. are to be lumped together. So do you now deny that the sanctuary and its services which typified the sacrifice of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, saved the Jews who placed their faith in the same? Will those who placed their faith in Christ during the old covenant by participating in the same, all die? Is this what you are trying to say with the above quoted scripture? Will you deny the following words of the same author who wrote your above quoted statement, though apparently paraphrased?

Heb 4:1  Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it. 2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it. 3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world. 4 For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works. 5 And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest. 6 Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief: 7 Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts. 8 For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day. 9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God. 10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his. 11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.

Are you saying that the gospel preached to the Jews during the old covenant by way of the law and sanctuary services only produced death, that all Israel of the old covenant is doomed? If so, you do not understand the gospel at all, or the covenants, or the law. Faith has alway been the issue, not works. The ditch has always been on both sides of the road. One side says they can be saved by the law. The other says there is no law or standard, save their own which they invent. Both will lead to destruction. You are of the latter camp. Abject ignorance alone, would determine that the old covenant established by God for humanity was unto death. This is only for those who would try to reestablish the old covenant during this new covenant era. The old covenant was established by God unto salvation for humanity before the reality of Christ and His birth, life, death, and resurrection. Your false doctrine twists a tangled web of the scriptures, and the words of the apostle Paul himself even as Peter has warned us from his day. You would do well to take Peter's advise, or it will not end well for you.

2Pe 3:14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless. 15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; 16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction. 17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.

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God has given many commandments Amo.  I would ask of you to prove that the commands given in the texts below are ten commandment requirements.  I don't see a ten in any of those texts.  I don't believe adding to scripture is allowed now is it?

Yes I know, when it is convenient you make no separation between any old covenant laws, though the scripture you shared above which I addressed, seems to imply one. Unless it, or in reality you take it to mean that even the commandments concerning faith in Christ's sacrifice through the old covenant sanctuary, were unto death. In which case of course, none were saved during the old covenant at all. These are the kind of contradictions false gospels cause. They make one scripture contradict the testimony of another. Again, the problem is your's because of what you choose to believe, not mine. You are the one who makes no separation between the ten spoken by the mouth of God and written with His own finger twice for humanity, and those specific to literal Israel by the hand and mouth of Moses, not me. You may attempt to project the problems brought about by your own twisted understanding upon my faith if you wish, but I will have none of it. This problem is from the faith you have chosen, not mine.




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