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Author Topic: The SDA church is God's remnant church of Revelation....  (Read 20664 times)

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Offline Trumpeter

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Re: The SDA church is God's remnant church of Revelation....
« Reply #70 on: Thu Dec 06, 2012 - 06:45:33 »
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The SDA church is God's remnant church of Revelation....

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What of the Seventh Day Adventist Church, and their claim to be the true church and remnant?


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Re: The SDA church is God's remnant church of Revelation....
« Reply #70 on: Thu Dec 06, 2012 - 06:45:33 »

Offline drewhemm

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Re: The SDA church is God's remnant church of Revelation....
« Reply #71 on: Thu Dec 06, 2012 - 07:45:27 »
God has always had a people to represent Him on the earth. Not because of any merit inherent to that people, but so that His name and His message can be proclaimed to the peoples of the earth.

Exodus 19:

5 Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:
6 And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.

Deuteronomy 7:

6 For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth.
7 The LORD did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because ye were more in number than any people; for ye were the fewest of all people:
8 But because the LORD loved you, and because he would keep the oath which he had sworn unto your fathers, hath the LORD brought you out with a mighty hand, and redeemed you out of the house of bondmen, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt.

Deuteronomy 9:

4 Speak not thou in thine heart, after that the LORD thy God hath cast them out from before thee, saying, For my righteousness the LORD hath brought me in to possess this land: but for the wickedness of these nations the LORD doth drive them out from before thee.
5 Not for thy righteousness, or for the uprightness of thine heart, dost thou go to possess their land: but for the wickedness of these nations the LORD thy God doth drive them out from before thee, and that he may perform the word which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.
6 Understand therefore, that the LORD thy God giveth thee not this good land to possess it for thy righteousness; for thou art a stiffnecked people.

One may debate as to which of the many Christian denominations best fits this description, but the fact remains that God always leaves Himself a remnant. For that I'll just quote directly from our fundamental beliefs:

Quote
13. Remnant and Its Mission:
The universal church is composed of all who truly believe in Christ, but in the last days, a time of widespread apostasy, a remnant has been called out to keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus. This remnant announces the arrival of the judgment hour, proclaims salvation through Christ, and heralds the approach of His second advent. This proclamation is symbolized by the three angels of Revelation 14; it coincides with the work of judgment in heaven and results in a work of repentance and reform on earth. Every believer is called to have a personal part in this worldwide witness. (Rev. 12:17; 14:6-12; 18:1-4; 2 Cor. 5:10; Jude 3, 14; 1 Peter 1:16-19; 2 Peter 3:10-14; Rev. 21:1-14.)


Source: http://www.adventist.org/beliefs/fundamental/index.html

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Re: The SDA church is God's remnant church of Revelation....
« Reply #71 on: Thu Dec 06, 2012 - 07:45:27 »

Online MeMyself

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Re: The SDA church is God's remnant church of Revelation....
« Reply #72 on: Thu Dec 06, 2012 - 08:49:07 »
Actually it always makes me laugh when any one group or denomination or cult claim they they alone are the 'true' chruch, or they alone are the 144,000 etc. That alone shows that they are right off course and in serious error.
The 144,000 will be from the Jewish tribes, and NOT gentile believers.

You say it makes you laugh, and then you proceed to do exactly the same thing - identify who you think the 144,000 are, and in such a way as to exclude others.

You are entitled to your opinion, but I don't think it's fair for you to say that your opinion is more valid than the opinion of others, especially when you jump to the same kind of conclusion.

But, the big and bright shining difference, is that Chosen is NOT Jewish...she isn't claiming that her group is the group that God favors, while the rest fall sadly short.

Offline Lively Stone

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Re: The SDA church is God's remnant church of Revelation....
« Reply #73 on: Thu Dec 06, 2012 - 10:55:02 »
Actually it always makes me laugh when any one group or denomination or cult claim they they alone are the 'true' chruch, or they alone are the 144,000 etc. That alone shows that they are right off course and in serious error.
The 144,000 will be from the Jewish tribes, and NOT gentile believers.

You say it makes you laugh, and then you proceed to do exactly the same thing - identify who you think the 144,000 are, and in such a way as to exclude others.

You are entitled to your opinion, but I don't think it's fair for you to say that your opinion is more valid than the opinion of others, especially when you jump to the same kind of conclusion.


Exclude others?

GOD excludes all but Jews with regard to the 144,000. No one has the right to add to that distinction that He alone has clearly made without question.

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Re: The SDA church is God's remnant church of Revelation....
« Reply #73 on: Thu Dec 06, 2012 - 10:55:02 »

Offline drewhemm

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Re: The SDA church is God's remnant church of Revelation....
« Reply #74 on: Thu Dec 06, 2012 - 14:22:50 »
Exclude others?

GOD excludes all but Jews with regard to the 144,000. No one has the right to add to that distinction that He alone has clearly made without question.


That's your personal interpretation of a prophecy yet to be fulfilled. It relies on the literal interpretation of verses surrounded by an entire book that can only be understood symbolically. I mention that in the 144,000 thread here:

http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/seventh-day-adventist-forum-(sda)/the-144-000/15/

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Re: The SDA church is God's remnant church of Revelation....
« Reply #74 on: Thu Dec 06, 2012 - 14:22:50 »



Offline drewhemm

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Re: The SDA church is God's remnant church of Revelation....
« Reply #75 on: Fri Dec 07, 2012 - 15:25:29 »
If you do NOT think that 144k people are actual physical descendants of each of those tribes you violate the simple understanding of the scripture. [peshat]
...
The Peshat tells us that God knows who these descendants are and will seal them at this time.


I must have missed this reply, otherwise I would have responded earlier. You say Peshat should be used for interpreting Revelation, including chapter 7 and including verses 4-8? How can you be certain that Sod should not be used here? Can you interpret verses 1-3 and 9-17 using Peshat?

The Sod approach of Pardes is evidently more suited to the book of Revelation as a whole because it coincides with the meaning of the name of the book itself!

Quote
Sod (סוֹד) (pronounced with a long O as in 'bone') — "secret" ("mystery") or the esoteric/mystical meaning, as given through inspiration or revelation.


Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pardes_(Jewish_exegesis)

Revelation is what we call it in English. It's Ancient Greek name is Apocalypse (in my Spanish Bible it appears as Apocalipsis):

Quote
An apocalypse (Ancient Greek: ἀποκάλυψις apocálypsis, from ἀπό and καλύπτω meaning 'un-covering'), translated literally from Greek refers to a revelation of something hidden, although this sense did not enter English until the 14th century.[1] In religious contexts it is usually a revelation of hidden meaning - hidden from human knowledge in an era dominated by falsehood and misconception.


Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apocalypse

Apocalypse = uncovering. How can you uncover Peshat? You cannot, because Peshat requires no uncovering, it is understood by simply reading it. Only Sod requires uncovering.

The book of Revelation was written in code for a reason: if it wasn't, we almost certainly wouldn't have it today. Those who had the power over the Bible would have seen themselves identified in it and would gone to every effort to destroy it off the face of the earth. Can you imagine if Revelation 13:2 was written in 'clear text', in Peshat? If I were to say here on the forum what this verse means in clear text, I would probably get myself banned!

Take a look here:

http://www.betemunah.org/remez.html

They seem to be Messianic Jews, and they show a chart stating the Sod approach should be used for interpreting Revelation, not Peshat. That is the same understanding we as Adventists have...

My friend, we are not violating Peshat in our interpretation of Revelation, you are neglecting to apply Sod where necessary.
« Last Edit: Fri Dec 07, 2012 - 15:48:39 by drewhemm »

Offline drewhemm

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Re: The SDA church is God's remnant church of Revelation....
« Reply #76 on: Fri Dec 07, 2012 - 23:32:58 »
Moreover, the vision John saw in Revelation 7 is a fulfilment of the prophecy in Ezekiel 9:

Quote
4. And the LORD said unto him, Go through the midst of the city, through the midst of Jerusalem, and set a mark upon the foreheads of the men that sigh and that cry for all the abominations that be done in the midst thereof.


Should Peshat be used for the interpretation of this chapter as well? If so, when did these events literally occur?

By applying the Sod approach of interpretation to Revelation 7, one cannot merely suggest that it could be referring to a non-literal number of non-literal Jews from non-literal tribes - Sod expressly excludes the possibility of a literal interpretation as the true meaning cannot be inferred from the simple reading of the text, else there would be no mystery and therefore no revelation (in the literal sense of the word).

I humbly recommend you dig more deeply into the word (Sod being the deepest of the four methods of Jewish exegesis) and find another interpretation, one that does justice to the necessity of the true meaning being hidden from the eyes of the casual reader. I understand that doing so requires the modification of some currently-held beliefs, but do we obtain our beliefs from the word, or impose them upon it?

Quote
Another way of looking at these four levels is as layers, concentric spheres that overlap each other like layers of an onion. Pshat represents the most outer, obvious layer, while Sod represents the most hidden, inner, and essential layer. In fact, Sod, being the most inner layer, is said to be enclothed by Drush, which is enclothed by Remez, all of which are enclothed by the most outer layer, Pshat.


Source: http://www.torah.org/learning/perceptions/5764/yisro.html
« Last Edit: Sat Dec 08, 2012 - 00:24:34 by drewhemm »

Offline hammer123

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Re: The SDA church is God's remnant church of Revelation....
« Reply #77 on: Sat Dec 08, 2012 - 15:17:07 »
Just as Catholics and other religious groups are misguided, so is the SDA.  The Church is the body of born again Christians, not a religious group with a title next to it.  There are born again Christians spread about all around the world in many different groups with titles next to them.
« Last Edit: Sun Dec 09, 2012 - 13:00:30 by hammer123 »

Offline drewhemm

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Re: The SDA church is God's remnant church of Revelation....
« Reply #78 on: Sun Dec 09, 2012 - 06:34:05 »
Just as Catholics and other religious groups are misguided, so is the SDA.  The Church is the body of born again Christians, not a religious group with a title next to it.  Their are born again Christians spread about all around the world in many different groups with titles next to them.


I think you are trying to make two points here, so I shall try and respond to both:

  • God no longer has a remnant people that can be identified by a title
  • Even if God did still have a remnant people identified by a title, it wouldn't be the Seventh-day Adventist Church

In the beginning, God related with humanity face-to-face, as we see He walked in the garden of Eden with Adam (Genesis 3:8,9). After our sin created a necessary separation between us and God (Exodus 33:20, Isaiah 59:2), God began to raise a people who could represent Him (Exodus 2:24-25, Exodus 3:7, Exodus 9:13). From that time onward, God has maintained a relationship with a specific people, not because of their own merit, but because that was the method He established. There are examples of where God worked miracles via individuals, but that is not the overall story of the Old Testament.

Then we reach the New Testament. Do we see God favouring individualism over organisation? Consider Acts 1:8, 2:32, 3:15 and 5:32 and see how God used collective witness. Why? Because any message has more credibility when it shared by more than one person. The Old Testament laws prohibited the execution of criminals based on the testimony of a single witness.

In the New Testament, we see that the early Christian church had a headquarters and that there was an established body that dealt with theological questions (Acts 15:2).

I could provide many more New Testament examples of where God directed His people to work in an organised, corporate (in the sense of pertaining to a united group) manner. I would therefore have to ask, why do you think God ceased to work in this manner?

In answer to the second point, which is somewhat more subjective than the first, I would ask the question: if God did have a remnant people that could be identified by its title, what would be it's characteristics and its mission? If you consider this question Biblically, you should come to the same conclusion we have. I offer Revelation 12:17, 14:12 and 19:10 as starting points.

Does having a remnant people mean that God does not invite outsiders in? We say there is no such restriction; anyone is free to and indeed invited to join God's remnant people. John 10:16 is one of many texts we could offer to support this perspective.

Offline DaveW

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Re: The SDA church is God's remnant church of Revelation....
« Reply #79 on: Sun Dec 09, 2012 - 09:30:25 »

I must have missed this reply, otherwise I would have responded earlier. You say Peshat should be used for interpreting Revelation, including chapter 7 and including verses 4-8? How can you be certain that Sod should not be used here? Can you interpret verses 1-3 and 9-17 using Peshat?


I am familiar with all 4 levels of interpretation; Peshat, Remez, Drash and Sod.  For those who are not:

Quote
Peshat: often inaccurately translated as literal, Peshat comes from the root which means simple, although Peshat is sometimes anything but simple! Peshat correctly means the intended meaning (the opposite of Drash! see below). The problem is, one person's peshat is another person's drash!

Remez: alluded meaning (reading between the lines). Remez in modern Hebrew means hint. Traditionally, remez referred to methods such as gematria (word-number values)

Drash: drawn out meaning. Homiletical or interpretative meaning. The word 'midrash' is from the same root. The drash is an interpretation that is not explicit in the text, in other words, not pshat.

Sod: (lit. secret). The mystical or esoteric meaning.
http://www.kolel.org/pages/5764/ekev.html

You see it is not one or the other.  Most time it both/and. All Semitic writing has multiple levels of meaning, and Semitic speakers who write in other languages take that aspect along with them.

As for Peshat, the plain meaning is the base for all other meanings.  You cannot have Sod without Peshat first. 

So your wanting a Sod mystical meaning is fine but it does not exist without Peshat being true also.

Offline drewhemm

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Re: The SDA church is God's remnant church of Revelation....
« Reply #80 on: Sun Dec 09, 2012 - 12:40:23 »
I am familiar with all 4 levels of interpretation; Peshat, Remez, Drash and Sod.  For those who are not:

Quote
Peshat: often inaccurately translated as literal, Peshat comes from the root which means simple, although Peshat is sometimes anything but simple! Peshat correctly means the intended meaning (the opposite of Drash! see below). The problem is, one person's peshat is another person's drash!

Remez: alluded meaning (reading between the lines). Remez in modern Hebrew means hint. Traditionally, remez referred to methods such as gematria (word-number values)

Drash: drawn out meaning. Homiletical or interpretative meaning. The word 'midrash' is from the same root. The drash is an interpretation that is not explicit in the text, in other words, not pshat.

Sod: (lit. secret). The mystical or esoteric meaning.
http://www.kolel.org/pages/5764/ekev.html

You see it is not one or the other.  Most time it both/and. All Semitic writing has multiple levels of meaning, and Semitic speakers who write in other languages take that aspect along with them.

As for Peshat, the plain meaning is the base for all other meanings.  You cannot have Sod without Peshat first. 

So your wanting a Sod mystical meaning is fine but it does not exist without Peshat being true also.


The source you quote still supports our interpretation. That is, that the number of people, their genealogy and the specific tribes they are from do not need to be literal as you originally asserted, any more than the words "an eye for an eye", need to be understood literally, even though they are interpreted with Peshat. If you will at least agree to that, I will be happy and we can agree to disagree over who we believe these tribes represent.

Offline hammer123

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Re: The SDA church is God's remnant church of Revelation....
« Reply #81 on: Sun Dec 09, 2012 - 13:02:36 »
Just as Catholics and other religious groups are misguided, so is the SDA.  The Church is the body of born again Christians, not a religious group with a title next to it.  Their are born again Christians spread about all around the world in many different groups with titles next to them.


I think you are trying to make two points here, so I shall try and respond to both:

  • God no longer has a remnant people that can be identified by a title
  • Even if God did still have a remnant people identified by a title, it wouldn't be the Seventh-day Adventist Church

In the beginning, God related with humanity face-to-face, as we see He walked in the garden of Eden with Adam (Genesis 3:8,9). After our sin created a necessary separation between us and God (Exodus 33:20, Isaiah 59:2), God began to raise a people who could represent Him (Exodus 2:24-25, Exodus 3:7, Exodus 9:13). From that time onward, God has maintained a relationship with a specific people, not because of their own merit, but because that was the method He established. There are examples of where God worked miracles via individuals, but that is not the overall story of the Old Testament.

Then we reach the New Testament. Do we see God favouring individualism over organisation? Consider Acts 1:8, 2:32, 3:15 and 5:32 and see how God used collective witness. Why? Because any message has more credibility when it shared by more than one person. The Old Testament laws prohibited the execution of criminals based on the testimony of a single witness.

In the New Testament, we see that the early Christian church had a headquarters and that there was an established body that dealt with theological questions (Acts 15:2).

I could provide many more New Testament examples of where God directed His people to work in an organised, corporate (in the sense of pertaining to a united group) manner. I would therefore have to ask, why do you think God ceased to work in this manner?

In answer to the second point, which is somewhat more subjective than the first, I would ask the question: if God did have a remnant people that could be identified by its title, what would be it's characteristics and its mission? If you consider this question Biblically, you should come to the same conclusion we have. I offer Revelation 12:17, 14:12 and 19:10 as starting points.

Does having a remnant people mean that God does not invite outsiders in? We say there is no such restriction; anyone is free to and indeed invited to join God's remnant people. John 10:16 is one of many texts we could offer to support this perspective.


I find it strange that many SDA a members attack the Catholic Church, but both SDA and the Catholic Church believe in the ONE CHURCH.

Offline drewhemm

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Re: The SDA church is God's remnant church of Revelation....
« Reply #82 on: Sun Dec 09, 2012 - 17:39:32 »
I find it strange that many SDA a members attack the Catholic Church, but both SDA and the Catholic Church believe in the ONE CHURCH.

It's not that it's the pet issue of a few members, it is our understanding as a denomination. If you go to any Adventist Church, anywhere in the world and ask, they should all give you the same answer on the subject.

You are right in saying both the Adventist Church and the Catholic Church both claim to be God's true church. The issue of which came first is not the deciding factor. Judaism came before Christianity and non-Messianic Jews claim that Christianity is a sect, a cult, a lie etc. Sound familiar? The Jews are/were (depending on your point of view) the Lord's chosen people, but due to their refusal to fulfil their God-given mission, the gauntlet had to pass to another. We Christians now need to "provoke [the Jews] to jealousy" to belief in Christ (Romans 11:11-12).

I just posted in another thread, which could be seen as the flip-side to this one:

http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/seventh-day-adventist-forum-(sda)/is-the-roman-catholic-church-christian-or-pagan/msg1054776231/#msg1054776231

Please excuse the title, it's not mine!
« Last Edit: Sun Dec 09, 2012 - 17:43:35 by drewhemm »

 

     
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