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Christian Interests => Organized Religion and Religious Movements Discussions => Seventh Day Adventist Forum => Topic started by: Hobie on Thu Mar 12, 2009 - 09:15:55

Title: The SDA church is God's remnant church of Revelation....
Post by: Hobie on Thu Mar 12, 2009 - 09:15:55
....but who are the Remnant?

Revelation 12:17
And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

The Adventist church teaches Gods Commandments and has the Testimony of Jesus Christ through the Spirit of Prophecy, but what of each of the members, do they become the remnant?

Only those who keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ will be part of the remnant at the end, so those that do not hold on to this or accept it, cannot be the Remnant. If some  brethren pick up strange philosophies, or private interpretations or letting go of the truth or stop believing in the testimonies given through the Spirit of Prophecy, even a hardening of the heart against the truth that they once loved, how can they be part of the Remnant of Revelation? Each one individually has to chose and accept the truth given to them.

So what about other Christians, what truth will they have to accept to be part of the Remant as given in Revelation?

Is it different than what truth the thief at the cross had to accept......?


Well lets take a look at what is to make the Remnant of God, or Spiritual Israel at the End Times. Throughout the ages, God has had a people through whom He chose to disseminate His truth. It was God’s plan that all people - every nation, tribe and tongue should become partakers of His grace. In His divine plan of restoration, He chose fallen human beings to become co-workers together with Him to achieve this end. God has always had faithful followers who would stand for truth and justice even in the face of great opposition. Before the flood, Enoch walked with God, and faithful Noah became the father of the post-flood human race, when he and his family were the only remnant to be saved from the destruction of the then-time apostate world.

After the flood, the patriarch Abraham was given the promise that through his seed all peoples would be blessed. (Genesis 12:2) The Messianic promise was to be realized through Isaac and Jacob whose name was changed to Israel after he wrestled with God for divine forgiveness and blessing. (Genesis 32:28) “Israel
Title: Re: The SDA church is God's remnant church of Revelation....
Post by: OldDad on Thu Mar 12, 2009 - 09:17:18
Don't SDA's consider the Bible and Ellen G. White's writings to be equally inspired and authoritative?
Title: Re: The SDA church is God's remnant church of Revelation....
Post by: Hobie on Thu Mar 12, 2009 - 09:23:51
Don't SDA's consider the Bible and Ellen G. White's writings to be equally inspired and authoritative?
::playingguitar::

No, Ellen White herself said she was the lesser of the lights given to the movement and everyone must first study and learn the truths from scriptures before anything else.
Title: Re: The SDA church is God's remnant church of Revelation....
Post by: OldDad on Thu Mar 12, 2009 - 09:32:46
From the SDA publication "Ministry" October 1981:

"We believe the revelation and inspiration of both the Bible and Ellen White's writings to be of equal quality. The superintendence of the Holy Spirit was just as careful and thorough in one case as in the other".
Title: Re: The SDA church is God's remnant church of Revelation....
Post by: Hobie on Thu Mar 12, 2009 - 09:45:29
From the SDA publication "Ministry" October 1981:

"We believe the revelation and inspiration of both the Bible and Ellen White's writings to be of equal quality. The superintendence of the Holy Spirit was just as careful and thorough in one case as in the other".


They can give their opinion, but Ellen White was very careful to make it clear that Gods word is above all, it is the standard for all of Gods people and I feel that is why this is written as the first of the fundemental beliefs...

Fundamental Beliefs

Seventh-day Adventists accept the Bible as their only creed and hold certain fundamental beliefs to be the teaching of the Holy Scriptures. These beliefs, as set forth here, constitute the church's understanding and expression of the teaching of Scripture. Revision of these statements may be expected at a General Conference session when the church is led by the Holy Spirit to a fuller understanding of Bible truth or finds better language in which to express the teachings of God's Holy Word.

1. Holy Scriptures:
The Holy Scriptures, Old and New Testaments, are the written Word of God, given by divine inspiration through holy men of God who spoke and wrote as they were moved by the Holy Spirit. In this Word, God has committed to man the knowledge necessary for salvation. The Holy Scriptures are the infallible revelation of His will. They are the standard of character, the test of experience, the authoritative revealer of doctrines, and the trustworthy record of God's acts in history. (2 Peter 1:20, 21; 2 Tim. 3:16, 17; Ps. 119:105; Prov. 30:5, 6; Isa. 8:20; John 17:17; 1 Thess. 2:13; Heb. 4:12.)
Title: Re: The SDA church is God's remnant church of Revelation....
Post by: OldDad on Thu Mar 12, 2009 - 09:48:22
A great statement on the Bible - pretty much all evangelical churches believe the same thing - but it's not the statement of how EGW's writings are viewed and used.

Also, it is a dodge to keep referring to how EGW considered her writings, instead of how her followers view them.
Title: Re: The SDA church is God's remnant church of Revelation....
Post by: Hobie on Thu Mar 12, 2009 - 09:48:56
Here is a better explanation...

"...I find this rather amazing that Ellen White specifically told the church not to use her as their source of truth, but learn from the truths from the bible. Amen.

Ellen White herself said: "Let all prove their positions from the Scriptures and substantiate every point they claim from the revealed Word of God."397 To the delegates of the General Conference in 1901, she said, "Lay Sister White right to one side: lay her to one side. Don't you never [sic] quote my words again as long as you live, until you can obey the Bible. When you take the Bible and make that your food, and your meat, and your drink, and you make that the elements of your character, when you can do that you will know better how to receive some counsel from God. But here is the Word, the precious Word, exalted before you today. And don't you give a rap any more what 'Sister White Said' [sic]—'Sister White said this,' and 'Sister White said that,' and 'Sister White said the other thing'. But say, 'Thus saith the Lord God of Israel.'398 ..."

"...The final court of appeal must always be the Bible.
This was the strong conviction of her husband James White who wrote: "There is a class of persons who are determined to have it that the Review and its conductors make the views of Mrs. White a test of doctrine and Christian fellowship. . . . What has the Review to do with Mrs. White's views? The sentiments published in its columns are all drawn form the Holy Scriptures. No writer of the Review has ever referred to them as authority on any point. . . . It's motto has been, 'The Bible, and the Bible alone, the only rule of faith and duty.'. . .


"Every Christian is therefore duty bound to take the Bible as the perfect rule of faith and duty. He should pray fervently to be aided by the Holy Spirit in searching the Scriptures for the whole truth, and for his whole duty. He is not at liberty to turn from them to learn his duty through any of the gifts. We say that the very moment he does, he places the gifts in a wrong place, and takes an extremely dangerous position."395
He could see that, very early in Adventism, some were inclined to give her writings an authority over and above the Scriptural authority for the work of a prophet. "They conclude that if it be true that God is reviving some of the gifts, 'for the comfort of his people, and correct those who err from Bible truth.' That all errors would at once be corrected by these gifts, and the church be saved the trouble of searching the Word for truth to expose error. . . . They would put the gifts where they do not belong. . . . The revival of any, or all of the gifts, will never supersede the necessity of searching the Word to learn the truth."396 ...."

"...the Bible is its own interpreter and every Christian is free to study the Bible (guided by the Holy Spirit) to find truth for themselves. The following points support James White in his stand:

1. Jesus left a promise to His Church. "All this I have spoken while still with you. But the Counsellor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you." ( John 14:25-26)

2. Recognising this point and practicing it is part of being Protestant. The Catholic Church tried to impose upon Christians the role of the pope as the infallible interpreter of Scripture. This concept was rejected by Protestants, because it violated the principle of sola Scriptures. Besides, once you have any external authority telling you what the Bible means, you make that authority more powerful than the Bible itself.

3.The Bible is a completed book. Hebrews 1:1 gives the reason for this, "In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son. . . . " The generation of Jesus' day were taught by Christ and individuals wrote down what they had learned. Jesus was the fullest, most complete revelation of God. Nothing that comes after Him will ever add to or eclipse the revelation of God in Him. All that comes after will be but a reflection of the light that shone through Him. Therefore the work of prophets is to call people back to study and obey that final, complete, revelation in Jesus. The work of prophets is to point out duties already revealed and neglected...."excerpted from MORE THAN A PROPHET ... by Graeme Bradford.
Title: Re: The SDA church is God's remnant church of Revelation....
Post by: Hobie on Thu Mar 12, 2009 - 09:51:22
A great statement on the Bible - pretty much all evangelical churches believe the same thing - but it's not the statement of how EGW's writings are viewed and used.

Also, it is a dodge to keep referring to how EGW considered her writings, instead of how her followers view them.

They must not make that mistake of raising her above Gods word, they must be viligent to not go down that path...
Title: Re: The SDA church is God's remnant church of Revelation....
Post by: OldDad on Thu Mar 12, 2009 - 10:08:38
Well, again, what EGW or her husband might have said doesn't really bear on how her writings are used in actual practice today.

Does the baptismal vow still include this affirmation? "Do you accept the Biblical teaching of spiritual gifts, and do you believe that the gift of prophecy in the remnant church is one of the identifying marks of that church?"


Title: Re: The SDA church is God's remnant church of Revelation....
Post by: Hobie on Thu Mar 12, 2009 - 10:33:37
Well, again, what EGW or her husband might have said doesn't really bear on how her writings are used in actual practice today.

Does the baptismal vow still include this affirmation? "Do you accept the Biblical teaching of spiritual gifts, and do you believe that the gift of prophecy in the remnant church is one of the identifying marks of that church?"


Of course the gift of prophecy in the remnant church is one of the identifying marks of that church, thats the whole premise of this thread. If they listen to what Ellen White said and wrote down, there would be no issue on her place as in many things. Just like if Christians listened to what Christ said about the Law, but what can you do.....
Title: Re: The SDA church is God's remnant church of Revelation....
Post by: OldDad on Thu Mar 12, 2009 - 13:42:34
I'll take that as a yes - it is still included in the baptismal vow.

Has anyone other than EGW been recognized by the SDA as operating in that gift of prophecy?
Title: Re: The SDA church is God's remnant church of Revelation....
Post by: Hobie on Thu Mar 12, 2009 - 13:58:24
I'll take that as a yes - it is still included in the baptismal vow.

Has anyone other than EGW been recognized by the SDA as operating in that gift of prophecy?

I quess we need to do a overview of the history of the Adventist movement, I will see if I can put one together and post...
Title: Re: The SDA church is God's remnant church of Revelation....
Post by: OldDad on Thu Mar 12, 2009 - 14:12:30
That's ok, I have a copy of the church manual right here...

Page 222 of that manual, under the appendix "Summary of Doctrinal Beliefs" says

Quote
21. The church is to come behind in no gift, and the presence of the gift of prophecy is to be one of the identifying marks of the remnant church. (1 Cor. 1:5-7; 12:1-28; Amos 3:7; Hosea 12:10, 13; Rev. 12:17; 19:10. See pp. 15, 33, 34.)
Seventh-day Adventists recognize that this gift was manifested in the life and ministry of Ellen G. White.

I ask again: Has anyone other than EGW been recognized by the SDA as operating in that gift of prophecy?







Title: Re: The SDA church is God's remnant church of Revelation....
Post by: Hobie on Thu Mar 12, 2009 - 14:41:23
That's ok, I have a copy of the church manual right here...

Page 222 of that manual, under the appendix "Summary of Doctrinal Beliefs" says

Quote
21. The church is to come behind in no gift, and the presence of the gift of prophecy is to be one of the identifying marks of the remnant church. (1 Cor. 1:5-7; 12:1-28; Amos 3:7; Hosea 12:10, 13; Rev. 12:17; 19:10. See pp. 15, 33, 34.)
Seventh-day Adventists recognize that this gift was manifested in the life and ministry of Ellen G. White.

I ask again: Has anyone other than EGW been recognized by the SDA as operating in that gift of prophecy?









As for others there were some who said they had been given some of the same light she was given but decided not to tell others or keep it to themselves and so nothing came of it till they heard her preaching later on. I dont have their names but will look it up..
Title: Re: The SDA church is God's remnant church of Revelation....
Post by: OldDad on Thu Mar 12, 2009 - 14:44:19
But as far as official recognition by the SDA church, the answer would be no, right?
Title: Re: The SDA church is God's remnant church of Revelation....
Post by: Hobie on Thu Mar 12, 2009 - 14:51:08
But as far as official recognition by the SDA church, the answer would be no, right?

The Spirit of Prophecy was for the end times, to unveil what was to come up to the Second Coming which it has done. So the only other will be right at the end when the Holy Spirit is poured out and many shall prophesy and have dreams and visions.

Acts 2:17
And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
Title: Re: The SDA church is God's remnant church of Revelation....
Post by: OldDad on Thu Mar 12, 2009 - 14:54:51
Well, Peter identified what was happening right at that moment as the fulfillment of the prophecy of Joel which he quoted in Acts 2, but it is accurate to say that right now, no one other than EGW is recognized by the SDA church as operating in the gift of prophecy.  Yes or no?


Title: Re: The SDA church is God's remnant church of Revelation....
Post by: Hobie on Thu Mar 12, 2009 - 19:00:05
Well, Peter identified what was happening right at that moment as the fulfillment of the prophecy of Joel which he quoted in Acts 2, but it is accurate to say that right now, no one other than EGW is recognized by the SDA church as operating in the gift of prophecy.  Yes or no?





It is in the Fundemantal Beliefs..
18. The Gift of Prophecy:
One of the gifts of the Holy Spirit is prophecy. This gift is an identifying mark of the remnant church and was manifested in the ministry of Ellen. G. White . As the Lord's messenger, her writings are a continuing and authoritative source of truth which provide for the church comfort, guidance, instruction, and correction. They also make clear that the Bible is the standard by which all teaching and experience must be tested. (Joel 2:28, 29; Acts 2:14-21; Heb. 1:1-3; Rev. 12:17; 19:10.)

Well rather than take someones word or the church's, why dont you honestly check out what she has written and see what you decide in your heart as the Holy Spirit guides you.   http://www.whiteestate.org/
Title: Re: The SDA church is God's remnant church of Revelation....
Post by: OldDad on Thu Mar 12, 2009 - 21:44:40
Thanks, I'm reading a couple of books about her right now, "Seventh Day Adventism and the Writings of Ellen G. White" by J. Mark Martin and one by Walter Rea.
Title: Re: The SDA church is God's remnant church of Revelation....
Post by: Hobie on Thu Mar 12, 2009 - 22:11:36
Thanks, I'm reading a couple of books about her right now, "Seventh Day Adventism and the Writings of Ellen G. White" by J. Mark Martin and one by Walter Rea.

My brother, note the "honestly check out"... part.. there are some that seek the truth and others that fight against it. We must let the Holy Spirit guide us into Gods truth...
Title: Re: The SDA church is God's remnant church of Revelation....
Post by: Bon Voyage on Thu Mar 12, 2009 - 22:23:45
Thanks, I'm reading a couple of books about her right now, "Seventh Day Adventism and the Writings of Ellen G. White" by J. Mark Martin and one by Walter Rea.

My brother, note the "honestly check out"... part.. there are some that seek the truth and others that fight against it. We must let the Holy Spirit guide us into Gods truth...

If some folks "let the Holy Spirit guide.." themselves "..into God's truth," and find Ellen's writings to be false, and some folks that "let the Holy Spirit guide.." themselves "..into God's truth," this that Ellen's writings are not, who is right?

Title: Re: The SDA church is God's remnant church of Revelation....
Post by: Hobie on Thu Mar 12, 2009 - 22:33:18
Thanks, I'm reading a couple of books about her right now, "Seventh Day Adventism and the Writings of Ellen G. White" by J. Mark Martin and one by Walter Rea.

My brother, note the "honestly check out"... part.. there are some that seek the truth and others that fight against it. We must let the Holy Spirit guide us into Gods truth...

If some folks "let the Holy Spirit guide.." themselves "..into God's truth," and find Ellen's writings to be false, and some folks that "let the Holy Spirit guide.." themselves "..into God's truth," this that Ellen's writings are not, who is right?



If you honestly read the "Desire of Ages" or "Steps to Christ" you will see it is Christ-center and glorifies Gods truth and is in harmony with His word. So the real question is if you fight against what is from God, who is right?
Title: Re: The SDA church is God's remnant church of Revelation....
Post by: Bon Voyage on Thu Mar 12, 2009 - 23:55:43
Thanks, I'm reading a couple of books about her right now, "Seventh Day Adventism and the Writings of Ellen G. White" by J. Mark Martin and one by Walter Rea.

My brother, note the "honestly check out"... part.. there are some that seek the truth and others that fight against it. We must let the Holy Spirit guide us into Gods truth...

If some folks "let the Holy Spirit guide.." themselves "..into God's truth," and find Ellen's writings to be false, and some folks that "let the Holy Spirit guide.." themselves "..into God's truth," this that Ellen's writings are not, who is right?



If you honestly read the "Desire of Ages" or "Steps to Christ" you will see it is Christ-center and glorifies Gods truth and is in harmony with His word. So the real question is if you fight against what is from God, who is right?

If you honestly read "Desire of Ages" or "Steps to Christ" among other writings of Ellen White, you will find that she was a false prophetess, and you would run away from this claimed "remnant church."

Making assertions about the conclusions that folks will make if they "honestly" read this or that does not make your case.  There is no evidence, only opinion and assertion.
Title: Re: The SDA church is God's remnant church of Revelation....
Post by: Mere Nick on Fri Mar 13, 2009 - 00:30:53

Making assertions about the conclusions that folks will make if they "honestly" read this or that does not make your case.  There is no evidence, only opinion and assertion.


Gary, I have "honestly" considered things you have written and have concluded that, yes, you should be emperor for life.  Honestly.
Title: Re: The SDA church is God's remnant church of Revelation....
Post by: OldDad on Fri Mar 13, 2009 - 07:15:25
, but it is accurate to say that right now, no one other than EGW is recognized by the SDA church as operating in the gift of prophecy.  Yes or no?




It is in the Fundemantal Beliefs..
18. The Gift of Prophecy:
One of the gifts of the Holy Spirit is prophecy. This gift is an identifying mark of the remnant church and was manifested in the ministry of Ellen. G. White . As the Lord's messenger, her writings are a continuing and authoritative source of truth which provide for the church comfort, guidance, instruction, and correction. They also make clear that the Bible is the standard by which all teaching and experience must be tested. (Joel 2:28, 29; Acts 2:14-21; Heb. 1:1-3; Rev. 12:17; 19:10.)

So, in spite of the claim that EGW did not consider or call herself a "prophet" the SDA church does, and in fact recognizes no other person as having the gift of prophecy now or since the death of EGW.  Is this correct?
Title: Re: The SDA church is God's remnant church of Revelation....
Post by: Hobie on Fri Mar 13, 2009 - 08:04:50
, but it is accurate to say that right now, no one other than EGW is recognized by the SDA church as operating in the gift of prophecy.  Yes or no?





It is in the Fundemantal Beliefs..
18. The Gift of Prophecy:
One of the gifts of the Holy Spirit is prophecy. This gift is an identifying mark of the remnant church and was manifested in the ministry of Ellen. G. White . As the Lord's messenger, her writings are a continuing and authoritative source of truth which provide for the church comfort, guidance, instruction, and correction. They also make clear that the Bible is the standard by which all teaching and experience must be tested. (Joel 2:28, 29; Acts 2:14-21; Heb. 1:1-3; Rev. 12:17; 19:10.)


So, in spite of the claim that EGW did not consider or call herself a "prophet" the SDA church does, and in fact recognizes no other person as having the gift of prophecy now or since the death of EGW.  Is this correct?


She was more than just a 'prophet' as she also helped to establish a system of hospitals, schools, and publishing houses that circles the globe and wrote on health, organization,  over 50 volumes, 100,000 pages, and over 200 million words.  Here is a good site to check..
http://www.seventh-day.org/Prophecy.htm


I dont know they have anything other than what is in the fundamental beliefs so you would have to check with the theological department in Andrews University. I personally believe that her work was for the end time so no other is needed as we have been given all the pieces of the events that we need and only the pouring out of the Holy Spirit of Acts 2:17 were many will prophey and have visions is left. The Advent movement was started, nurtured and guided by Gods hand and God works for His own purpose, man doesnt just say I am a seer or prophet, it is God who chooses and does according to His will and purpose.

Title: Re: The SDA church is God's remnant church of Revelation....
Post by: OldDad on Fri Mar 13, 2009 - 08:39:22
So, it would be fair to "pass judgement" on EGW's prophecies (1 Corinthians 14:29) and to "examine everything carefully" (1 Thessalonians 5:21) and to hold her writings to a biblical standard of prophecy.


Title: Re: The SDA church is God's remnant church of Revelation....
Post by: Hobie on Fri Mar 13, 2009 - 08:52:18
So, it would be fair to "pass judgement" on EGW's prophecies (1 Corinthians 14:29) and to "examine everything carefully" (1 Thessalonians 5:21) and to hold her writings to a biblical standard of prophecy.




My brother, since you dont want to really take a honest look at what she has written, their isnt much I can say to you. You seem to have your mind made up, but you have to remember that the Pharisees had their minds shut up against Jesus so you must be careful or you may find yourself fighting against God. I ask that you read her writings especially the "Steps to Christ" and search your heart with a open mind to see where the Spirit leads...
Title: Re: The SDA church is God's remnant church of Revelation....
Post by: OldDad on Fri Mar 13, 2009 - 10:04:25
"Honest look" is code for - "If you disagree with EGW, you're not honest."  But the fact is, you have no idea what I've read or studied, or what my background is.

And applying biblical standards of evaluation to the writings and teachings of another human being is hardly "fighting against God."


Title: Re: The SDA church is God's remnant church of Revelation....
Post by: Hobie on Fri Mar 13, 2009 - 10:10:55
"Honest look" is code for - "If you disagree with EGW, you're not honest."  But the fact is, you have no idea what I've read or studied, or what my background is.

And applying biblical standards of evaluation to the writings and teachings of another human being is hardly "fighting against God."




No, honest is within ones heart, God places it there so we can know between what is right and what is wrong. If we ask, the Holy Spirit guides us into all truth but we have to want to know the truth. The Pharisees only wanted to destroy what Christ brought so they tried to attack, twist, entrap, in fact everything short of death to destroy the truth given and when that didnt work they instigated the death of Christ.
Title: Re: The SDA church is God's remnant church of Revelation....
Post by: Tantor on Fri Mar 13, 2009 - 10:12:56
"Honest look" is code for - "If you disagree with EGW, you're not honest."  But the fact is, you have no idea what I've read or studied, or what my background is.

And applying biblical standards of evaluation to the writings and teachings of another human being is hardly "fighting against God."




No, honest is within ones heart, God places it there so we can know between what is right and what is wrong. If we ask, the Holy Spirit guides us into all truth but we have to want to know the truth. The Pharisees only wanted to destroy what Christ brought so they tried to attack, twist, entrap, in fact everything short of death to destroy the truth given and when that didnt work they instigated the death of Christ.

The old circular defense... they cannot see beyond the box that their teachers put them in.
Title: Re: The SDA church is God's remnant church of Revelation....
Post by: OldDad on Fri Mar 13, 2009 - 10:15:33
"Honest look" is code for - "If you disagree with EGW, you're not honest."  But the fact is, you have no idea what I've read or studied, or what my background is.

And applying biblical standards of evaluation to the writings and teachings of another human being is hardly "fighting against God."




No, honest is within ones heart, God places it there so we can know between what is right and what is wrong. If we ask, the Holy Spirit guides us into all truth but we have to want to know the truth. The Pharisees only wanted to destroy what Christ brought so they tried to attack, twist, entrap, in fact everything short of death to destroy the truth given and when that didnt work they instigated the death of Christ.

A correct understanding of how the Pharisees reacted to Jesus, but not applicable when using biblical standards to evaluate the writings and teachings of another person... Unless you hold their teachings to be equal in inspiration and authority to Jesus.


Title: Re: The SDA church is God's remnant church of Revelation....
Post by: Hobie on Fri Mar 13, 2009 - 10:24:24
"Honest look" is code for - "If you disagree with EGW, you're not honest."  But the fact is, you have no idea what I've read or studied, or what my background is.

And applying biblical standards of evaluation to the writings and teachings of another human being is hardly "fighting against God."





No, honest is within ones heart, God places it there so we can know between what is right and what is wrong. If we ask, the Holy Spirit guides us into all truth but we have to want to know the truth. The Pharisees only wanted to destroy what Christ brought so they tried to attack, twist, entrap, in fact everything short of death to destroy the truth given and when that didnt work they instigated the death of Christ.


A correct understanding of how the Pharisees reacted to Jesus, but not applicable when using biblical standards to evaluate the writings and teachings of another person... Unless you hold their teachings to be equal in inspiration and authority to Jesus.





Revelation 19:10
And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

You have forgotten that the 'testimony of Christ is the Spirit of Prophecy', so these according to scripture would not be her own musings, if you check out background you will see she had neither the schooling or theological level of seminary or university. Read through the writings and make a personal evaluation of them, dont take my word or others, read it for yourself and prayerfully see what the Holy Spirit reveals in what is written.

Here is a good site to check out on the tests to be applied..
http://www.seventh-day.org/testsofproph.htm
Title: Re: The SDA church is God's remnant church of Revelation....
Post by: zoonance on Fri Mar 13, 2009 - 10:26:37
To be honest, claiming special insight from the Holy Spirit in contrast to traditional thought is not limited to Ms. White.
Title: Re: The SDA church is God's remnant church of Revelation....
Post by: OldDad on Fri Mar 13, 2009 - 10:28:51

You have forgotten that the 'testimony of Christ is the Spirit of Prophecy', so these according to scripture would not be her own musings, if you check out background you will see she had neither the schooling or theological level of seminary or university. Read through the writings and make a personal evaluation of them, dont take my word or others, read it for yourself and prayerfully see what the Holy Spirit reveals in what is written.


And the Scripture clearly tells us to evaluate and judge prophecy.  The best standard for doing that is not how it makes us feel, but the objective standard of the Scripture itself.
Title: Re: The SDA church is God's remnant church of Revelation....
Post by: Hobie on Fri Mar 13, 2009 - 10:29:56
To be honest, claiming special insight from the Holy Spirit in contrast to traditional thought is not limited to Ms. White.

I am not sure what you are getting at.......
Title: Re: The SDA church is God's remnant church of Revelation....
Post by: Hobie on Fri Mar 13, 2009 - 10:31:29

You have forgotten that the 'testimony of Christ is the Spirit of Prophecy', so these according to scripture would not be her own musings, if you check out background you will see she had neither the schooling or theological level of seminary or university. Read through the writings and make a personal evaluation of them, dont take my word or others, read it for yourself and prayerfully see what the Holy Spirit reveals in what is written.



And the Scripture clearly tells us to evaluate and judge prophecy.  The best standard for doing that is not how it makes us feel, but the objective standard of the Scripture itself.


Correct my brother, that is why I gave you the site and there are other studies I can point to but dont want to clutter...

http://www.seventh-day.org/testsofproph.htm
Title: Re: The SDA church is God's remnant church of Revelation....
Post by: Tantor on Fri Mar 13, 2009 - 10:34:04
To be honest, claiming special insight from the Holy Spirit in contrast to traditional thought is not limited to Ms. White.

I am not sure what you are getting at.......

Morman's, Christian Scientists... etc.  There are a ton of cults out there all claiming they are divinely appointed by some extra-biblical prophet(ess).
Title: Re: The SDA church is God's remnant church of Revelation....
Post by: zoonance on Fri Mar 13, 2009 - 12:26:42
To be honest, claiming special insight from the Holy Spirit in contrast to traditional thought is not limited to Ms. White.

I am not sure what you are getting at.......

Morman's, Christian Scientists... etc.  There are a ton of cults out there all claiming they are divinely appointed by some extra-biblical prophet(ess).



and some on the Forum as well.
Title: Re: The SDA church is God's remnant church of Revelation....
Post by: Hobie on Fri Mar 13, 2009 - 15:36:28
To be honest, claiming special insight from the Holy Spirit in contrast to traditional thought is not limited to Ms. White.

I am not sure what you are getting at.......

Morman's, Christian Scientists... etc.  There are a ton of cults out there all claiming they are divinely appointed by some extra-biblical prophet(ess).


and some without Bibles at all... ::smile::
Title: Re: The SDA church is God's remnant church of Revelation....
Post by: Amo on Sun Mar 15, 2009 - 08:39:13
Quote
And the Scripture clearly tells us to evaluate and judge prophecy.  The best standard for doing that is not how it makes us feel, but the objective standard of the Scripture itself.

BINGO!  Scripture is the bottom line.  Apparently even EGW says the same.

Two things are evident though regarding prophets.  Number one, they are human beings, and therefore not perfect.  They themselves must be corrected on occasion, and do not always even correctly understand, or understand at all what God has revealed to them through vision, or what ever means He chooses.  They must learn at the feet of Jesus just like everyone else.

Just because they are prophets, doesn't mean that every word that ever comes out of their mouths, comes directly from God either.  God does not give them total insight regarding all things, and they have opinions just like everyone else.  Add to this the fact that others are likely to take their words, and twist or mutilate them, just like many do with the scriptures, then your statement above becomes all the more important.  The scriptures are the bottom line. 

Lets face it, in this world, a true prophet will suffer persecution, false accusations, misrepresentation, and condemnation by the majority.  This is what happened to all the biblical prophets, Apostles, and even Jesus Christ Himself.  Therefore, the bible must be the bottom line for determining the authenticity of anyone claiming to be a prophet.  There are many books written about EGW, and others attacking or defending the same.  Simply choosing to read one or the other, is choosing to believe what someone else has to say about the subject.  If we want to judge wether a person is a prophet or not, we should examine their writings ourelves, and compare them with scripture.

On the other hand, we could just immerse ourselves in the word of God seeking the guidance of the Holy Spirit concerning the same.  If we do this, we can't go wrong.  The scripture is clear.

2 Tim 3:14 But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them; 15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. 16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

Heb 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
13 Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do.

Matt 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.



Title: Re: The SDA church is God's remnant church of Revelation....
Post by: Hobie on Fri Apr 03, 2009 - 19:29:28
Excellent post...
Title: Re: The SDA church is God's remnant church of Revelation....
Post by: saul on Tue Jan 11, 2011 - 20:30:34
The remnant of Rev 12  is the very last thing that anyone should want to be as it is the Remnant that are Left "after" first the Saints are taken alive and then the rest of the Christian commandment keepers are taken to a place of safety and fed there three and a half Years, and unfortunately there are more who were Not as Diligent but also were Commandment keepers and these are the Remnant as it suggests they remain as the last in order of righteousness and shall face tribulation Head on, I believe that the SDA are a great Church one of the better ones! Please check this out, and remember Satan Attacks ALL of Christ's Churches None are immune,  the problem lies with the Understanding of the Woman the Man Child and the Remnant, the woman is the greater Church community probably many denominations whom are faithful to a good degree and she gives birth to the Man child which is the best part of her Faithful ones the Saints! the Man Child is not Christ but it is those saints that shall be given to rule with a rod of iron as shall Christ who is in them shall, and the remnant is those remaining that shall keep themselves to some degree as commandment keepers but never the less they shall be in tribulation yet shall be saved in Judgement.

The Woman = The Church/The Man Child = the Bridegroom "the saints"/The Remnant = those commandment keepers who are left.
Title: Re: The SDA church is God's remnant church of Revelation....
Post by: robert two on Mon Jan 17, 2011 - 15:45:06
 4SGa page 36 Aaron's rod.
Here we have the answer to where the REMNANT will come from.
Must be due any day now.

EGW words.
recorded for a warning to GOD'S PEOPLE especially those who live upon the earth near the close of time.

So friends take great care this is going to happen soon.
The ROD is still in full bloom and is white almond not pink.
GOD knew about us and told MOSES in Numbers 17:10 To be kept for a toke against the REBELS.
EXODUS 16:33
and lay it up before the LORD to be kept for your generations.

GOD is very kind. Take great care.
Title: Re: The SDA church is God's remnant church of Revelation....
Post by: Cobalt1959 on Thu Feb 03, 2011 - 07:31:10
It is in the Fundemantal Beliefs..
18. The Gift of Prophecy:
One of the gifts of the Holy Spirit is prophecy. This gift is an identifying mark of the remnant church and was manifested in the ministry of Ellen. G. White . As the Lord's messenger, her writings are a continuing and authoritative source of truth which provide for the church comfort, guidance, instruction, and correction. They also make clear that the Bible is the standard by which all teaching and experience must be tested. (Joel 2:28, 29; Acts 2:14-21; Heb. 1:1-3; Rev. 12:17; 19:10.)

Well rather than take someones word or the church's, why dont you honestly check out what she has written and see what you decide in your heart as the Holy Spirit guides you.   [url]http://www.whiteestate.org/[/url]


This is the same tactic that Mormons use with the Book of Mormon.  It is the same tactics that Jehovah's Witnesses use with Watchtower material.  It is set up from the beginning much like poisoning the well to lead people to a preconceived conclusion that if they read it they are supposed to come to the conclusion that it is true.  If it really were true, no such admonishment would be necessary, the writings would be able to stand on their own merits just as the living words of God have in the Bible for milleniums of time.  The carrot is that if you don't come away believing E.G.W. is a prophetess, then you are not guided by the Holy Spirt.  Epic Fail.

SDA's claim that the gift of prophecy is the identifying mark of the 'remnant' of the church, and yet, supposedly, the only person within the church to have this gift so far is E.G.W.  That is odd, by itself, because surely if the gift of prophecy is an identifying mark, there should be all kinds of people within the SDA hierarchy with this gift giving prophecies just as eaqual and perhaps greater than E.G.W.  Throughout the Bible we see God sending numerous prophets to His people in both the Old and New testaments, so where are the other SDA prophets if the SDA church is truly this last 'remnant' of the church?  Why is E.G.W. the only recognized prophet, especially when her prophecies have been proven time and again to be false?

Acts 2:16-18  16 No, this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel:  17 "'In the last days, God says, I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your young men will see visions, your old men will dream dreams.  18 Even on my servants, both men and women, I will pour out my Spirit in those days, and they will prophesy.   

Contrary to your claims, this out-pouring of the Holy Spirit began that day, at Pentecost and has continued and continues up to this day.  It is not limited to some special 'remnant,' it is for every member of the Body of Christ who wishes to accept it.  Nowhere do we find this out-pouring of the Holy Spirit confined to some special remnant or only for a specific time.  That is false.  And surely if this was speaking to the SDA church as some special and favored 'remnant' then your church would be bursting at the seams with prophets since your church itself claims this special gift.
Title: Re: The SDA church is God's remnant church of Revelation....
Post by: Cobalt1959 on Thu Feb 03, 2011 - 07:46:08
Quote
And the Scripture clearly tells us to evaluate and judge prophecy.  The best standard for doing that is not how it makes us feel, but the objective standard of the Scripture itself.

BINGO!  Scripture is the bottom line.  Apparently even EGW says the same.

Two things are evident though regarding prophets.  Number one, they are human beings, and therefore not perfect.  They themselves must be corrected on occasion, and do not always even correctly understand, or understand at all what God has revealed to them through vision, or what ever means He chooses.  They must learn at the feet of Jesus just like everyone else.

Just because they are prophets, doesn't mean that every word that ever comes out of their mouths, comes directly from God either.  God does not give them total insight regarding all things, and they have opinions just like everyone else.  Add to this the fact that others are likely to take their words, and twist or mutilate them, just like many do with the scriptures, then your statement above becomes all the more important.  The scriptures are the bottom line. 

Lets face it, in this world, a true prophet will suffer persecution, false accusations, misrepresentation, and condemnation by the majority.  This is what happened to all the biblical prophets, Apostles, and even Jesus Christ Himself.  Therefore, the bible must be the bottom line for determining the authenticity of anyone claiming to be a prophet.  There are many books written about EGW, and others attacking or defending the same.  Simply choosing to read one or the other, is choosing to believe what someone else has to say about the subject.  If we want to judge wether a person is a prophet or not, we should examine their writings ourelves, and compare them with scripture.

On the other hand, we could just immerse ourselves in the word of God seeking the guidance of the Holy Spirit concerning the same.  If we do this, we can't go wrong.  The scripture is clear.

2 Tim 3:14 But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them; 15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. 16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

Heb 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
13 Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do.

Matt 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

Contrary to your assertions above, scripture gives us a clear and well-defined test as to who is a prophet and who is not, once the claim is made.

Deuteronomy 13:1-4  If a prophet, or one who foretells by dreams, appears among you and announces to you a miraculous sign or wonder,  2 and if the sign or wonder of which he has spoken takes place, and he says, "Let us follow other gods" "and let us worship them,"  3 you must not listen to the words of that prophet or dreamer. The LORD your God is testing you to find out whether you love him with all your heart and with all your soul.  4 It is the LORD your God you must follow, and him you must revere. Keep his commands and obey him; serve him and hold fast to him.

SDA's make no distinction when referring to the writings of E.G.W. as to what is inspired and what is not.  You treat all of her writings as if they are inspired, so if any one single part of it is wrong, that makes her a false prophet, according to scriptural guidelines.  Therefore, you cannot use a "humans are fallible and make mistakes" defense for her.  Humans are fallible and make mistakes, but not when under the direct inspiration of the Holy Spirit.  If that were true, we would not be able to rely on one single word of the Bible.  Prophets in both the OT and NT clearly demarcated when they were speaking for God, and when they were not.  They left no doubt.

I have seen you, and djconklin and Hobie claim time after time what E.G.W. said about herself and her writings.  That has no validity and carries no weight.  The only applicable reasoning is how the SDA church views her writings and you view them as being equal to scripture.

1 Corinthians 14:29  Two or three prophets should speak, and the others should weigh carefully what is said.

Someone is not automatically a prophet just because they, or someone else says they are.  If the SDA hierarchy was wise, and really believed as you wrote above, they would break down E.G.W.'s writings into categories of what was inspired and what was not so you could dismiss the parts that are obviously false and distance yourself from them, especially medical claims that we know from science are 100% false.  The main problem is not with E.G.W., it is with the way the SDA treats and represents her writings.
Title: Re: The SDA church is God's remnant church of Revelation....
Post by: Amo on Fri Feb 04, 2011 - 11:06:14
Quote
Contrary to your assertions above, scripture gives us a clear and well-defined test as to who is a prophet and who is not, once the claim is made.

Deuteronomy 13:1-4  If a prophet, or one who foretells by dreams, appears among you and announces to you a miraculous sign or wonder,  2 and if the sign or wonder of which he has spoken takes place, and he says, "Let us follow other gods" "and let us worship them,"  3 you must not listen to the words of that prophet or dreamer. The LORD your God is testing you to find out whether you love him with all your heart and with all your soul.  4 It is the LORD your God you must follow, and him you must revere. Keep his commands and obey him; serve him and hold fast to him.

SDA's make no distinction when referring to the writings of E.G.W. as to what is inspired and what is not.  You treat all of her writings as if they are inspired, so if any one single part of it is wrong, that makes her a false prophet, according to scriptural guidelines.  Therefore, you cannot use a "humans are fallible and make mistakes" defense for her.  Humans are fallible and make mistakes, but not when under the direct inspiration of the Holy Spirit.  If that were true, we would not be able to rely on one single word of the Bible.  Prophets in both the OT and NT clearly demarcated when they were speaking for God, and when they were not.  They left no doubt.

I have seen you, and djconklin and Hobie claim time after time what E.G.W. said about herself and her writings.  That has no validity and carries no weight.  The only applicable reasoning is how the SDA church views her writings and you view them as being equal to scripture.

1 Corinthians 14:29  Two or three prophets should speak, and the others should weigh carefully what is said.

Someone is not automatically a prophet just because they, or someone else says they are.  If the SDA hierarchy was wise, and really believed as you wrote above, they would break down E.G.W.'s writings into categories of what was inspired and what was not so you could dismiss the parts that are obviously false and distance yourself from them, especially medical claims that we know from science are 100% false.  The main problem is not with E.G.W., it is with the way the SDA treats and represents her writings.

I don't see anything in the quote you are referring to, which denies that scripture - "gives us a clear and well-defined test as to who is a prophet and who is not".  To the contrary, it all seems to be saying that scripture is the bottom line.  So I'm not even sure where you are coming from on this one.

All prophets are and were human and fallible.  They all do, and did make mistakes.  We must all examine their writings in light of the same, and closely compare them to scripture for verification and or approval.  Anyone who believes every word that came out of EGW's, or anyone's mouth for that matter, was or is directly from God and should be considered as such, is making a serious mistake.  With the exception of Christ alone, of course.
Title: Re: The SDA church is God's remnant church of Revelation....
Post by: larry2 on Fri Feb 04, 2011 - 12:43:45

Honest is within ones heart, God places it there so we can know between what is right and what is wrong. If we ask, the Holy Spirit guides us into all truth but we have to want to know the truth.


Without EGW's prophesies, would you have come to your conclusions of end times?
Title: Re: The SDA church is God's remnant church of Revelation....
Post by: saul on Fri Feb 04, 2011 - 18:15:27
I Love the SDA's for the Most Part! it is particularly agonizing for me to see this error in the discernment of the Rev indicating  the Groups that are heading for Very different Kinds of Salvation, it is Simple but No Doubt will provoke arguments!.


The Woman= the Christian Church (which may be made up from several Denoms!) and obtains a degree of Safety from the Terrifying Events to Come having been removed from the Grasp of Satan's deceived masses etc.

The Manchild = the Elect amongst the Saints which come out of the Churches and are in a Greater state of Righteousness, it is these whom shall make up the Bride with Christ.

The Remnant = The remaining element of Christians whom Keep the Commandments and probably those whom have Not done Evil Unto the Children of God but have supported them even unknowingly.

The first Argument most seem to give against this teaching is that the Manchild is Christ Himself as he is described as the One who shall Rule all nations with a rod of Iron, but we Know that Christ is going to make Kings and rulers who shall rule with a rod of Iron as does he even in them, and it is not possible that the Woman (Church) could give birth to Christ as the Church was born of Christ.

 Rev Ch12 V5  And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

P.S the Remnant are going to face Tribulation Head on, Not Nice!.
Title: Re: The SDA church is God's remnant church of Revelation....
Post by: djconklin on Fri Feb 04, 2011 - 19:19:37
>Without EGW's prophesies, would you have come to your conclusions of end times?

Please point us to these "prophesies."
Title: Re: The SDA church is God's remnant church of Revelation....
Post by: Amo on Fri Feb 04, 2011 - 19:23:38
Quote
Without EGW's prophesies, would you have come to your conclusions of end times?
   
You will have to be more specific. Much, if not most of what SDA's believe about biblical prophecy was propagated by the Reformers and Protestant denominations which existed before it.  The Sabbath truth itself was introduced to us by a Seventh Day Baptist woman.  The 2300 day prophecy concerning the timing of it's fulfillment was introduced by a Baptist preacher named William Miller, though the event he predicted was wrong.  The correct event to take place at the end of the said prophecy did not come to the SDA Church through EGW either, but through a man named Hiram Ebson.  Of course at the time of these events, there were no Seventh Day Adventist's.  All the founders were members of other Protestant denominations including EGW who was a Methodist.  
Title: Re: The SDA church is God's remnant church of Revelation....
Post by: larry2 on Fri Feb 04, 2011 - 19:24:01

>Without EGW's prophesies, would you have come to your conclusions of end times?

Please point us to these "prophesies."



Sorry, I thought she made some prophesies concerning end times, or at least explaining them. She didn't?
Title: Re: The SDA church is God's remnant church of Revelation....
Post by: Amo on Fri Feb 04, 2011 - 19:45:33
Quote
Sorry, I thought she made some prophesies concerning end times, or at least explaining them. She didn't?

Yes, she wrote much about the same.  Much of what she believed though, was already believed and preached by Protestants before her.  This is why you would have to be more specific. 
Title: Re: The SDA church is God's remnant church of Revelation....
Post by: larry2 on Fri Feb 04, 2011 - 19:58:10
Quote
Sorry, I thought she made some prophesies concerning end times, or at least explaining them. She didn't?

Yes, she wrote much about the same.  Much of what she believed though, was already believed and preached by Protestants before her.  This is why you would have to be more specific. 


I'm not aware how to ask a question any clearer. Is there any new revelation made known, any prophesy, or and teaching made by EGW that influences what Hobie believes to be the leading of the Holy Spirit as to truth? Did she make any prophesies at all that influences SDA doctrine?
Title: Re: The SDA church is God's remnant church of Revelation....
Post by: Cobalt1959 on Sat Feb 05, 2011 - 20:06:06

I don't see anything in the quote you are referring to, which denies that scripture - "gives us a clear and well-defined test as to who is a prophet and who is not".  To the contrary, it all seems to be saying that scripture is the bottom line.  So I'm not even sure where you are coming from on this one.

All prophets are and were human and fallible.  They all do, and did make mistakes.  We must all examine their writings in light of the same, and closely compare them to scripture for verification and or approval.  Anyone who believes every word that came out of EGW's, or anyone's mouth for that matter, was or is directly from God and should be considered as such, is making a serious mistake.  With the exception of Christ alone, of course.

Surely you are joking.  You have clear scripture giving us the standard by which we are to judge who is and is not a prophet.
And yet you keep repeating that prophets are fallible.  Please provide scripture which tells us that.  If prophets were fallible, we would not be able to trust them.  We would have to throw out the majority of the Bible.

Deuteronomy 18:18-22  18 I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their brothers; I will put my words in his mouth, and he will tell them everything I command him.  19 If anyone does not listen to my words that the prophet speaks in my name, I myself will call him to account.  20 But a prophet who presumes to speak in my name anything I have not commanded him to say, or a prophet who speaks in the name of other gods, must be put to death."  21 You may say to yourselves, "How can we know when a message has not been spoken by the LORD?"  22 If what a prophet proclaims in the name of the LORD does not take place or come true, that is a message the LORD has not spoken. That prophet has spoken presumptuously. Do not be afraid of him.

Again, your claim that all prophets are human and fallible is false.  You cannot use that out when talking about the prophesies of E.G.W.  You claim that she is a prophet and that she has the "gift" of prophesy, do you not?  In the scripture above, God plainly says he will "put my words in his mouth."  That means if a prophet makes a mistake, after God has placed His words in the prophet's mouth, that God is the one actually making the mistake.  Only we know that is not possible.  So it would be the prophet making the mistake and it would be because God did not actually give the prophet the words to say.  Those are the only two options.  Because as God Himself states above, under God's direction through the Holy Spirt, the prophet will not make a mistake.  If he does, he is not a prophet and he isn't speaking what the Lord gave him.  That is the litmus test for who is, and conversely, who is not a true prophet.  A true prophet doesn not make a mistake when truly speaking for God.  The portion of scripture above clearly states that.

So you have a few problems.  First of all, it seems that even within your own organization, you can't agree on whether E.G.W. was a prophet or not.  You seem to imply she was, djconklin seems to indicate that she was not and never gave any prophecies.  Which is it?  She either was a prophet or she was not.  Your church hierarchy claims she was.  That she had the gift of prophecy and there would be no way that they could claim that gift existed within her unless they felt she had been observed or recorded exercising that gift.  Nobody can say I have the gift of tongues unless they actually observe me operating in it.  So SDA's claim she was a prophet, and that she spoke for God.  Only she said things that were false.  The SDA church makes absolutely no distiction as to which writings and prophecies of E.G.W.'s were made under divine inspiration and which ones were not under divine inspiration, you consider them all inspired.  So just one mistake in them means she is not a prophet, according to the above test.  So if you are going to claim that she is fallible and made a mistake, you are going to have to be able to deliniate for us which writings of E.G.W. were not written under divine inspiration, and which writings of E.G.W. should not be considered prophecy.

Also, why is it so difficult to give Larry a simple answer to his question?
Title: Re: The SDA church is God's remnant church of Revelation....
Post by: Amo on Sun Feb 06, 2011 - 11:59:06
Quote
Surely you are joking.  You have clear scripture giving us the standard by which we are to judge who is and is not a prophet.
And yet you keep repeating that prophets are fallible.  Please provide scripture which tells us that.  If prophets were fallible, we would not be able to trust them.  We would have to throw out the majority of the Bible.

Perhaps we have a misunderstanding.  I do not mean to imply in any way shape or form, that the word of God is fallible.  The bible is a manuscript of messages given to the world through the direct inspiration of the Holy Spirit of God upon chosen individuals, or a direct message to them from Angels of God, and occasionally God Himself.  The bible is the inspired word of God, not man.

The prophets however, were, and always will be sinners just like you and I.  In an of themselves they are certainly fallible.  Obviously, those words given to a prophet directly by God, should not be questioned.  We have examples in scripture, where prophets have spoken, and acted wrongly.  These words and actions were obviously not inspired by God.  No doubt either, these were recorded to keep the prophet, and God, in their proper perspectives.

Quote
Deuteronomy 18:18-22  18 I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their brothers; I will put my words in his mouth, and he will tell them everything I command him.  19 If anyone does not listen to my words that the prophet speaks in my name, I myself will call him to account.  20 But a prophet who presumes to speak in my name anything I have not commanded him to say, or a prophet who speaks in the name of other gods, must be put to death."  21 You may say to yourselves, "How can we know when a message has not been spoken by the LORD?"  22 If what a prophet proclaims in the name of the LORD does not take place or come true, that is a message the LORD has not spoken. That prophet has spoken presumptuously. Do not be afraid of him.

The prophet being spoken of in the above verses is Christ Himself.  Many could claim Him to be a false prophet, since all which He predicted has not yet come to pass.  The same could be said of most of the Apostles, if not all of them.  There has not been a prophet yet, that I know of, that has not had to endure the ridicule of being a false prophet by non believers, until their prophecies are actually fulfilled.  It is just the nature and condition of this world in rebellion against God.

Quote
Again, your claim that all prophets are human and fallible is false.  You cannot use that out when talking about the prophesies of E.G.W.  You claim that she is a prophet and that she has the "gift" of prophesy, do you not?  In the scripture above, God plainly says he will "put my words in his mouth."  That means if a prophet makes a mistake, after God has placed His words in the prophet's mouth, that God is the one actually making the mistake.  Only we know that is not possible.  So it would be the prophet making the mistake and it would be because God did not actually give the prophet the words to say.  Those are the only two options.  Because as God Himself states above, under God's direction through the Holy Spirt, the prophet will not make a mistake.  If he does, he is not a prophet and he isn't speaking what the Lord gave him.  That is the litmus test for who is, and conversely, who is not a true prophet.  A true prophet doesn not make a mistake when truly speaking for God.  The portion of scripture above clearly states that.

I have never said, or believed that a prophet who is speaking for God by way of revelation from the same, can be mistaken.  I don’t know where you are getting this idea from.  Moses was a great prophet of God.  Yet at the age of forty he murdered an Egyptian in defense of a Jew.  At which point God removed from Egypt for forty years in order to prepare him to properly deliver Israel by the hand of God, not man.  Forty years later at the borders of the promised land Moses erred.  He attributed the deliverance of Israel, and God’s forbearance with them to himself, and was thus forbidden to enter the promised land.  Elijah also faltered before God when confronted by Jezebel, and others also made mistakes.  This is because they were human and fallible.  Yet when they spoke under direct revelation from God, their words certainly were not.

Quote
So you have a few problems.  First of all, it seems that even within your own organization, you can't agree on whether E.G.W. was a prophet or not.  You seem to imply she was, djconklin seems to indicate that she was not and never gave any prophecies.  Which is it?
 

I’m afraid you are the one who is confused upon this point. I don’t know any SDA’s on this board that are denying she was a prophetess. If there are, let them say so.   

Quote
She either was a prophet or she was not.  Your church hierarchy claims she was.  That she had the gift of prophecy and there would be no way that they could claim that gift existed within her unless they felt she had been observed or recorded exercising that gift.  Nobody can say I have the gift of tongues unless they actually observe me operating in it.


Actually anybody can say anything they want, and often do make false claims, which is why we are having this conversation.

Quote
So SDA's claim she was a prophet, and that she spoke for God.  Only she said things that were false.
 

So says you.  I have personally pointed out numerous lies on these very message boards concerning the same.  Those who propagate them, seem to care less that they have spoken lies regarding EGW, as though they will be of no consequence when they stand before God in judgment.  I tell you the truth, even if EGW was a false prophet, those who have thought they can lie about her, or anyone else with impunity before God are seriously mistaken.  “Thou shall not bear false witness against thy neighbor.
Title: Re: The SDA church is God's remnant church of Revelation....
Post by: Hobie on Tue Feb 28, 2012 - 11:55:00
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Surely you are joking.  You have clear scripture giving us the standard by which we are to judge who is and is not a prophet.
And yet you keep repeating that prophets are fallible.  Please provide scripture which tells us that.  If prophets were fallible, we would not be able to trust them.  We would have to throw out the majority of the Bible.

Perhaps we have a misunderstanding.  I do not mean to imply in any way shape or form, that the word of God is fallible.  The bible is a manuscript of messages given to the world through the direct inspiration of the Holy Spirit of God upon chosen individuals, or a direct message to them from Angels of God, and occasionally God Himself.  The bible is the inspired word of God, not man.

The prophets however, were, and always will be sinners just like you and I.  In an of themselves they are certainly fallible.  Obviously, those words given to a prophet directly by God, should not be questioned.  We have examples in scripture, where prophets have spoken, and acted wrongly.  These words and actions were obviously not inspired by God.  No doubt either, these were recorded to keep the prophet, and God, in their proper perspectives.

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Deuteronomy 18:18-22  18 I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their brothers; I will put my words in his mouth, and he will tell them everything I command him.  19 If anyone does not listen to my words that the prophet speaks in my name, I myself will call him to account.  20 But a prophet who presumes to speak in my name anything I have not commanded him to say, or a prophet who speaks in the name of other gods, must be put to death."  21 You may say to yourselves, "How can we know when a message has not been spoken by the LORD?"  22 If what a prophet proclaims in the name of the LORD does not take place or come true, that is a message the LORD has not spoken. That prophet has spoken presumptuously. Do not be afraid of him.

The prophet being spoken of in the above verses is Christ Himself.  Many could claim Him to be a false prophet, since all which He predicted has not yet come to pass.  The same could be said of most of the Apostles, if not all of them.  There has not been a prophet yet, that I know of, that has not had to endure the ridicule of being a false prophet by non believers, until their prophecies are actually fulfilled.  It is just the nature and condition of this world in rebellion against God.

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Again, your claim that all prophets are human and fallible is false.  You cannot use that out when talking about the prophesies of E.G.W.  You claim that she is a prophet and that she has the "gift" of prophesy, do you not?  In the scripture above, God plainly says he will "put my words in his mouth."  That means if a prophet makes a mistake, after God has placed His words in the prophet's mouth, that God is the one actually making the mistake.  Only we know that is not possible.  So it would be the prophet making the mistake and it would be because God did not actually give the prophet the words to say.  Those are the only two options.  Because as God Himself states above, under God's direction through the Holy Spirt, the prophet will not make a mistake.  If he does, he is not a prophet and he isn't speaking what the Lord gave him.  That is the litmus test for who is, and conversely, who is not a true prophet.  A true prophet doesn not make a mistake when truly speaking for God.  The portion of scripture above clearly states that.

I have never said, or believed that a prophet who is speaking for God by way of revelation from the same, can be mistaken.  I don’t know where you are getting this idea from.  Moses was a great prophet of God.  Yet at the age of forty he murdered an Egyptian in defense of a Jew.  At which point God removed from Egypt for forty years in order to prepare him to properly deliver Israel by the hand of God, not man.  Forty years later at the borders of the promised land Moses erred.  He attributed the deliverance of Israel, and God’s forbearance with them to himself, and was thus forbidden to enter the promised land.  Elijah also faltered before God when confronted by Jezebel, and others also made mistakes.  This is because they were human and fallible.  Yet when they spoke under direct revelation from God, their words certainly were not.

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So you have a few problems.  First of all, it seems that even within your own organization, you can't agree on whether E.G.W. was a prophet or not.  You seem to imply she was, djconklin seems to indicate that she was not and never gave any prophecies.  Which is it?
 

I’m afraid you are the one who is confused upon this point. I don’t know any SDA’s on this board that are denying she was a prophetess. If there are, let them say so.   

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She either was a prophet or she was not.  Your church hierarchy claims she was.  That she had the gift of prophecy and there would be no way that they could claim that gift existed within her unless they felt she had been observed or recorded exercising that gift.  Nobody can say I have the gift of tongues unless they actually observe me operating in it.


Actually anybody can say anything they want, and often do make false claims, which is why we are having this conversation.

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So SDA's claim she was a prophet, and that she spoke for God.  Only she said things that were false.
 

So says you.  I have personally pointed out numerous lies on these very message boards concerning the same.  Those who propagate them, seem to care less that they have spoken lies regarding EGW, as though they will be of no consequence when they stand before God in judgment.  I tell you the truth, even if EGW was a false prophet, those who have thought they can lie about her, or anyone else with impunity before God are seriously mistaken.  “Thou shall not bear false witness against thy neighbor.
Title: Re: The SDA church is God's remnant church of Revelation....
Post by: DaveW on Tue Feb 28, 2012 - 12:26:09
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Adventism takes what the Reformers had and continues from where they stopped and formed into creeds once the individual reformer passed from the scene. If they had continued in reading scripture and letting God unveil His truths, they would have come to where Adventism is today, plain and simple.....
Perhaps.  Or they may have gone beyond the SDA and ended up in Messianic Judaism.
Title: Re: The SDA church is God's remnant church of Revelation....
Post by: DaveW on Wed Feb 29, 2012 - 05:12:44
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Why don’t you be specific, instead leaving the mind open to unanswered negative innuendo?
I have explained myself here and elsewhere several times. 

IMO the revelation of Sabbath was true.  But it should not have stopped there. 

But having said that, God frequently moves people a generation or 2 at a time. Eventually there would have been a fuller revelation of the restoration of the Jewishness of the gospel, the unique covenantal calling on the Jewish people and the importance of a Jewish lifestyle.
Title: Re: The SDA church is God's remnant church of Revelation....
Post by: current occupant on Sat Apr 28, 2012 - 11:22:53
How can the Seventh-day Adventist denomination be the remnant of the book of Revelation.



Title: Re: The SDA church is God's remnant church of Revelation....
Post by: Amo on Sun Apr 29, 2012 - 16:08:35
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How can the Seventh-day Adventist denomination be the remnant of the book of Revelation.


    The reference to 'remnant' in the book of revelation does not refer to a denomination.
    The Seventh-day Adventist denomination does not 'keep' the commandments of God.   
    The Seventh-day Adventist denomination does not 'have' the testimony of Jesus nor do they have a Biblical understanding of it.

Here we are.  Back up your statement by way of correcting false doctrine.  On the other hand, I'm sure the remnant will not be a denomination, but all those who believed and submitted to the truth.  Which of course I believe many SDA's do, while many others I know increasingly do not.
Title: Re: The SDA church is God's remnant church of Revelation....
Post by: Hobie on Sat Sep 08, 2012 - 05:42:58
How can the Seventh-day Adventist denomination be the remnant of the book of Revelation.


 
  • The reference to 'remnant' in the book of revelation does not refer to a denomination.
  • The Seventh-day Adventist denomination does not 'keep' the commandments of God.   
  • The Seventh-day Adventist denomination does not 'have' the testimony of Jesus nor do they have a Biblical understanding of it.

So who are you putting forward that does follow the Commandments and has the faith of Jesus. The Sunday keeping denomonations following Rome cannot qualify, Islam, Buddhaism and Hinduism certainly cannot, and the fallen apostate church of Rome or Eastern Orthodox are the furthest from truth in Christianity. So who would you put forward...
Title: Re: The SDA church is God's remnant church of Revelation....
Post by: DaveW on Mon Sep 10, 2012 - 08:49:07
....but who are the Remnant?

Revelation 12:17
And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

According to Acts 15 the Gentiles do NOT keep those commandments (or at least are not required to do so) so the remnant referred to here is the Messianic Jews.

Jews were given the oracles of God (Rom 3) and the Messianic Jews have the Testimony of Jesus (Yeshua). And many have an ongoing use of the gift of Prophecy.
Title: Re: The SDA church is God's remnant church of Revelation....
Post by: drewhemm on Wed Dec 05, 2012 - 18:31:57
According to Acts 15 the Gentiles do NOT keep those commandments (or at least are not required to do so) so the remnant referred to here is the Messianic Jews.

This is taking Acts 15 out of context in a major way and it is quite easy to see that. The law that was being discussed here was the law of Moses, the book that was kept in the side of the Ark of the covenant:

Deutoronomio 31:24-27

24 And it came to pass, when Moses had made an end of writing the words of this law in a book, until they were finished,
25 That Moses commanded the Levites, which bare the ark of the covenant of the LORD, saying,
26 Take this book of the law, and put it in the side of the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God, that it may be there for a witness against thee.

This is the law that Paul said was nailed to the cross. You can drive a nail through a book:

Colosians 2:14 "Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross."

Try doing that with a tablet of stone: you'll seen realise the metaphor doesn't fit.

Notice Paul uses the wording "against us" to demonstrate the connection between these handwritten ordinances and the book of the law written by Moses which was "a witness against thee".

This is where we as Adventists stand out from the majority of Christians, who believe there were two laws nailed to the cross (that of Moses and that of God) and Messianic Jews who believe either that no law was repealed or that it is only binding upon them, as if God was only the God of the Jews - Romans 3:29 and 6:15.

Please demonstrate how God's law, as written by Him on tablets of stone was somehow "against us". Look at the references in the New Testament where Paul contrasts law and grace, is he talking about the Ten Commandments or the law of Moses?:

Romans 2:25 "For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision."

Please show where circumcision is ever mentioned in relation to the Ten Commandments.

On the other hand, every time the Ten Commandments are quoted in the New Testament, they are shown in a positive light. Romans 13:8-10, James 2:8-12.

There is also the subject of the "works of the law". Naturally; the law of Moses included many works that the Jewish people had to perform to either identify them or help them understand the covenant they had entered into it; circumcision was one of them. Show me a single work in the Ten Commandments. All ten of the Ten Commandments are commands to abstain from ungodly activities, none of them is a command to do anything.

This is clarified by the subject of "boasting". Paul makes it quite clear that boasting comes from pointing to the works/deeds one has performed. Romans 3:27-28. As there are no works or deeds in the Ten Commandments, it cannot be used for boasting as there are no works with which to justify oneself.

Some may argue that keeping the Sabbath is a work, but that is a paradox for two reasons. One is that it is a day of rest. Rest does not equal work. Secondly, it is actually a commandment to abstain - see Isaiah 58:13 -

"If thou turn away thy foot from the sabbath, from doing thy pleasure on my holy day; and call the sabbath a delight, the holy of the LORD, honourable; and shalt honour him, not doing thine own ways, nor finding thine own pleasure, nor speaking thine own words."

The emphasis is clearly on what not to do, which makes it a command of abstention - the same as the other nine of the Ten Commandments. It is not to be understood in the sense of making the Sabbath holy as if we mortal beings could make anything holy. We are instructed not to desecrate the holiness God has already attributed to it. Abstain from desecrating.

There are of course many Scriptures that speak of the beauty of the law of God (Psalms 1:2, 19:7, 94:12 and 119:174) and that speak of the curse of the law of man Galatians 3:10-13. Let us not be blind and confuse the two and call a curse that which is holy, or think that the blessing of God's law are reserved for a select few.

Title: Re: The SDA church is God's remnant church of Revelation....
Post by: Everhope on Thu Dec 06, 2012 - 03:58:09
According to Acts 15 the Gentiles do NOT keep those commandments (or at least are not required to do so) so the remnant referred to here is the Messianic Jews.

This is taking Acts 15 out of context in a major way and it is quite easy to see that. The law that was being discussed here was the law of Moses, the book that was kept in the side of the Ark of the covenant:

Deutoronomio 31:24-27

24 And it came to pass, when Moses had made an end of writing the words of this law in a book, until they were finished,
25 That Moses commanded the Levites, which bare the ark of the covenant of the LORD, saying,
26 Take this book of the law, and put it in the side of the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God, that it may be there for a witness against thee.

This is the law that Paul said was nailed to the cross. You can drive a nail through a book:

Colosians 2:14 "Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross."

Try doing that with a tablet of stone: you'll seen realise the metaphor doesn't fit.

Notice Paul uses the wording "against us" to demonstrate the connection between these handwritten ordinances and the book of the law written by Moses which was "a witness against thee".

This is where we as Adventists stand out from the majority of Christians, who believe there were two laws nailed to the cross (that of Moses and that of God) and Messianic Jews who believe either that no law was repealed or that it is only binding upon them, as if God was only the God of the Jews - Romans 3:29 and 6:15.

Please demonstrate how God's law, as written by Him on tablets of stone was somehow "against us". Look at the references in the New Testament where Paul contrasts law and grace, is he talking about the Ten Commandments or the law of Moses?:

Romans 2:25 "For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision."

Please show where circumcision is ever mentioned in relation to the Ten Commandments.

On the other hand, every time the Ten Commandments are quoted in the New Testament, they are shown in a positive light. Romans 13:8-10, James 2:8-12.

There is also the subject of the "works of the law". Naturally; the law of Moses included many works that the Jewish people had to perform to either identify them or help them understand the covenant they had entered into it; circumcision was one of them. Show me a single work in the Ten Commandments. All ten of the Ten Commandments are commands to abstain from ungodly activities, none of them is a command to do anything.

This is clarified by the subject of "boasting". Paul makes it quite clear that boasting comes from pointing to the works/deeds one has performed. Romans 3:27-28. As there are no works or deeds in the Ten Commandments, it cannot be used for boasting as there are no works with which to justify oneself.

Some may argue that keeping the Sabbath is a work, but that is a paradox for two reasons. One is that it is a day of rest. Rest does not equal work. Secondly, it is actually a commandment to abstain - see Isaiah 58:13 -

"If thou turn away thy foot from the sabbath, from doing thy pleasure on my holy day; and call the sabbath a delight, the holy of the LORD, honourable; and shalt honour him, not doing thine own ways, nor finding thine own pleasure, nor speaking thine own words."

The emphasis is clearly on what not to do, which makes it a command of abstention - the same as the other nine of the Ten Commandments. It is not to be understood in the sense of making the Sabbath holy as if we mortal beings could make anything holy. We are instructed not to desecrate the holiness God has already attributed to it. Abstain from desecrating.

There are of course many Scriptures that speak of the beauty of the law of God (Psalms 1:2, 19:7, 94:12 and 119:174) and that speak of the curse of the law of man Galatians 3:10-13. Let us not be blind and confuse the two and call a curse that which is holy, or think that the blessing of God's law are reserved for a select few.



Amen!
Title: Re: The SDA church is God's remnant church of Revelation....
Post by: chosenone on Thu Dec 06, 2012 - 04:39:09
Actually it always makes me laugh when any one group or denomination or cult claim they they alone are the 'true' chruch, or they alone are the 144,000 etc. That alone shows that they are right off course and in serious error.
The 144,000 will be from the Jewish tribes, and NOT gentile believers.
Title: Re: The SDA church is God's remnant church of Revelation....
Post by: drewhemm on Thu Dec 06, 2012 - 04:58:28
Actually it always makes me laugh when any one group or denomination or cult claim they they alone are the 'true' chruch, or they alone are the 144,000 etc. That alone shows that they are right off course and in serious error.
The 144,000 will be from the Jewish tribes, and NOT gentile believers.

You say it makes you laugh, and then you proceed to do exactly the same thing - identify who you think the 144,000 are, and in such a way as to exclude others.

You are entitled to your opinion, but I don't think it's fair for you to say that your opinion is more valid than the opinion of others, especially when you jump to the same kind of conclusion.
Title: Re: The SDA church is God's remnant church of Revelation....
Post by: DaveW on Thu Dec 06, 2012 - 05:24:02
According to Acts 15 the Gentiles do NOT keep those commandments (or at least are not required to do so) so the remnant referred to here is the Messianic Jews.
This is taking Acts 15 out of context in a major way and it is quite easy to see that. The law that was being discussed here was the law of Moses, the book that was kept in the side of the Ark of the covenant:

Not out of context at all.  Read Acts 21 for the flip side of that.  Acts 15 had nothing to say to Jewish believers EXCEPT do not turn the Gentile believers into Jews.  But in Acts 21 you see that Jewish believers are STILL required to observe Moses and James contrasts that specifically with the decision of Acts 15: (James speaking to Paul)

Acts 21.21 and they have been told about you, that you are teaching all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children nor to walk according to the customs.
22 What, then, is to be done? They will certainly hear that you have come.
23 Therefore do this that we tell you. We have four men who are under a vow;
24 take them and purify yourself along with them, and pay their expenses so that they may shave their heads; and all will know that there is nothing to the things which they have been told about you, but that you yourself also walk orderly, keeping the Law.
25 But concerning the Gentiles who have believed, we wrote, having decided that they should abstain from meat sacrificed to idols and from blood and from what is strangled and from fornication.”
26 Then Paul took the men, and the next day, purifying himself along with them, went into the temple giving notice of the completion of the days of purification, until the sacrifice was offered for each one of them.

If any of them (especially Paul) ever believed that the Acts 15 decision exempted Jews from following Moses this would have been the opportune time to say so.  In his acts in buying the sacrifices for these 4 men, Paul agreed with James that Jews were to "... walk orderly, keeping the Law."  But then note verse 25 that exempted the gentiles from that.
Title: Re: The SDA church is God's remnant church of Revelation....
Post by: DaveW on Thu Dec 06, 2012 - 06:26:31
Quote from: chosenone
Actually it always makes me laugh when any one group or denomination or cult claim they they alone are the 'true' church, or they alone are the 144,000 etc. That alone shows that they are right off course and in serious error.
The 144,000 will be from the Jewish tribes, and NOT gentile believers.
You say it makes you laugh, and then you proceed to do exactly the same thing - identify who you think the 144,000 are, and in such a way as to exclude others.

You are entitled to your opinion, but I don't think it's fair for you to say that your opinion is more valid than the opinion of others, especially when you jump to the same kind of conclusion.

If you do NOT think that 144k people are actual physical descendants of each of those tribes you violate the simple understanding of the scripture. [peshat]

Rev 7.4 And I heard the number of those who were sealed, one hundred and forty-four thousand sealed from every tribe of the sons of Israel:
5 from the tribe of Judah, twelve thousand were sealed,
from the tribe of Reuben twelve thousand,
from the tribe of Gad twelve thousand,
6 from the tribe of Asher twelve thousand,
from the tribe of Naphtali twelve thousand,
from the tribe of Manasseh twelve thousand,
7 from the tribe of Simeon twelve thousand,
from the tribe of Levi twelve thousand,
from the tribe of Issachar twelve thousand,
8 from the tribe of Zebulun twelve thousand,
from the tribe of Joseph twelve thousand,
from the tribe of Benjamin, twelve thousand were sealed.

The Peshat tells us that God knows who these descendants are and will seal them at this time.

Now there is another grouping of 144.000 in Rev 14.  Are they the same?  We have no indicator one way or the other beyond the number being the same. This could be a different group of gentile believers, symmetrical to the group of Israelites.
Title: Re: The SDA church is God's remnant church of Revelation....
Post by: drewhemm on Thu Dec 06, 2012 - 06:36:19
Not out of context at all.  Read Acts 21 for the flip side of that.  Acts 15 had nothing to say to Jewish believers EXCEPT do not turn the Gentile believers into Jews.  But in Acts 21 you see that Jewish believers are STILL required to observe Moses and James contrasts that specifically with the decision of Acts 15: (James speaking to Paul)

Acts 21.21 and they have been told about you, that you are teaching all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children nor to walk according to the customs.
22 What, then, is to be done? They will certainly hear that you have come.
23 Therefore do this that we tell you. We have four men who are under a vow;
24 take them and purify yourself along with them, and pay their expenses so that they may shave their heads; and all will know that there is nothing to the things which they have been told about you, but that you yourself also walk orderly, keeping the Law.
25 But concerning the Gentiles who have believed, we wrote, having decided that they should abstain from meat sacrificed to idols and from blood and from what is strangled and from fornication.”
26 Then Paul took the men, and the next day, purifying himself along with them, went into the temple giving notice of the completion of the days of purification, until the sacrifice was offered for each one of them.

If any of them (especially Paul) ever believed that the Acts 15 decision exempted Jews from following Moses this would have been the opportune time to say so.  In his acts in buying the sacrifices for these 4 men, Paul agreed with James that Jews were to "... walk orderly, keeping the Law."  But then note verse 25 that exempted the gentiles from that.

The key here is in verse 24. Compare it with 1 Corinthians 9:19-21:

19 For though I be free from all men, yet have I made myself servant unto all, that I might gain the more.
20 And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law;
21 To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law.

Paul was evangelising, and he knew that his labours would be prejudiced if he was seen to be teaching disobedience to God. The case of these four men relates to the law in Numbers 30:1-2:

1 And Moses spake unto the heads of the tribes concerning the children of Israel, saying, This is the thing which the LORD hath commanded.
2 If a man vow a vow unto the LORD, or swear an oath to bind his soul with a bond; he shall not break his word, he shall do according to all that proceedeth out of his mouth.

So Paul took the opportunity to show that he was in no way suggesting to the Jews that they should break their vows, which would be an act of direct disobedience against the Lord.  At the same time, he taught the Gentiles that they should not enter into such vows. Not that if they had made a vow, they were at liberty to break it.

Again, the Ten Commandments have nothing to do with this episode.
Title: Re: The SDA church is God's remnant church of Revelation....
Post by: Trumpeter on Thu Dec 06, 2012 - 06:45:33
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The SDA church is God's remnant church of Revelation....

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What of the Seventh Day Adventist Church, and their claim to be the true church and remnant?


One Truth, One Church, One Body, No Walls...Only One Spirit and Love in Christ, Forever and Ever!
Personal URL link deleted per rule 3.1
Title: Re: The SDA church is God's remnant church of Revelation....
Post by: drewhemm on Thu Dec 06, 2012 - 07:45:27
God has always had a people to represent Him on the earth. Not because of any merit inherent to that people, but so that His name and His message can be proclaimed to the peoples of the earth.

Exodus 19:

5 Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:
6 And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.

Deuteronomy 7:

6 For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth.
7 The LORD did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because ye were more in number than any people; for ye were the fewest of all people:
8 But because the LORD loved you, and because he would keep the oath which he had sworn unto your fathers, hath the LORD brought you out with a mighty hand, and redeemed you out of the house of bondmen, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt.

Deuteronomy 9:

4 Speak not thou in thine heart, after that the LORD thy God hath cast them out from before thee, saying, For my righteousness the LORD hath brought me in to possess this land: but for the wickedness of these nations the LORD doth drive them out from before thee.
5 Not for thy righteousness, or for the uprightness of thine heart, dost thou go to possess their land: but for the wickedness of these nations the LORD thy God doth drive them out from before thee, and that he may perform the word which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.
6 Understand therefore, that the LORD thy God giveth thee not this good land to possess it for thy righteousness; for thou art a stiffnecked people.

One may debate as to which of the many Christian denominations best fits this description, but the fact remains that God always leaves Himself a remnant. For that I'll just quote directly from our fundamental beliefs:

Quote
13. Remnant and Its Mission:
The universal church is composed of all who truly believe in Christ, but in the last days, a time of widespread apostasy, a remnant has been called out to keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus. This remnant announces the arrival of the judgment hour, proclaims salvation through Christ, and heralds the approach of His second advent. This proclamation is symbolized by the three angels of Revelation 14; it coincides with the work of judgment in heaven and results in a work of repentance and reform on earth. Every believer is called to have a personal part in this worldwide witness. (Rev. 12:17; 14:6-12; 18:1-4; 2 Cor. 5:10; Jude 3, 14; 1 Peter 1:16-19; 2 Peter 3:10-14; Rev. 21:1-14.)


Source: http://www.adventist.org/beliefs/fundamental/index.html (http://www.adventist.org/beliefs/fundamental/index.html)
Title: Re: The SDA church is God's remnant church of Revelation....
Post by: MeMyself on Thu Dec 06, 2012 - 08:49:07
Actually it always makes me laugh when any one group or denomination or cult claim they they alone are the 'true' chruch, or they alone are the 144,000 etc. That alone shows that they are right off course and in serious error.
The 144,000 will be from the Jewish tribes, and NOT gentile believers.

You say it makes you laugh, and then you proceed to do exactly the same thing - identify who you think the 144,000 are, and in such a way as to exclude others.

You are entitled to your opinion, but I don't think it's fair for you to say that your opinion is more valid than the opinion of others, especially when you jump to the same kind of conclusion.

But, the big and bright shining difference, is that Chosen is NOT Jewish...she isn't claiming that her group is the group that God favors, while the rest fall sadly short.
Title: Re: The SDA church is God's remnant church of Revelation....
Post by: Lively Stone on Thu Dec 06, 2012 - 10:55:02
Actually it always makes me laugh when any one group or denomination or cult claim they they alone are the 'true' chruch, or they alone are the 144,000 etc. That alone shows that they are right off course and in serious error.
The 144,000 will be from the Jewish tribes, and NOT gentile believers.

You say it makes you laugh, and then you proceed to do exactly the same thing - identify who you think the 144,000 are, and in such a way as to exclude others.

You are entitled to your opinion, but I don't think it's fair for you to say that your opinion is more valid than the opinion of others, especially when you jump to the same kind of conclusion.


Exclude others?

GOD excludes all but Jews with regard to the 144,000. No one has the right to add to that distinction that He alone has clearly made without question.
Title: Re: The SDA church is God's remnant church of Revelation....
Post by: drewhemm on Thu Dec 06, 2012 - 14:22:50
Exclude others?

GOD excludes all but Jews with regard to the 144,000. No one has the right to add to that distinction that He alone has clearly made without question.


That's your personal interpretation of a prophecy yet to be fulfilled. It relies on the literal interpretation of verses surrounded by an entire book that can only be understood symbolically. I mention that in the 144,000 thread here:

http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/seventh-day-adventist-forum-(sda)/the-144-000/15/ (http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/seventh-day-adventist-forum-(sda)/the-144-000/15/)
Title: Re: The SDA church is God's remnant church of Revelation....
Post by: drewhemm on Fri Dec 07, 2012 - 15:25:29
If you do NOT think that 144k people are actual physical descendants of each of those tribes you violate the simple understanding of the scripture. [peshat]
...
The Peshat tells us that God knows who these descendants are and will seal them at this time.


I must have missed this reply, otherwise I would have responded earlier. You say Peshat should be used for interpreting Revelation, including chapter 7 and including verses 4-8? How can you be certain that Sod should not be used here? Can you interpret verses 1-3 and 9-17 using Peshat?

The Sod approach of Pardes is evidently more suited to the book of Revelation as a whole because it coincides with the meaning of the name of the book itself!

Quote
Sod (סוֹד) (pronounced with a long O as in 'bone') — "secret" ("mystery") or the esoteric/mystical meaning, as given through inspiration or revelation.


Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pardes_(Jewish_exegesis) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pardes_(Jewish_exegesis))

Revelation is what we call it in English. It's Ancient Greek name is Apocalypse (in my Spanish Bible it appears as Apocalipsis):

Quote
An apocalypse (Ancient Greek: ἀποκάλυψις apocálypsis, from ἀπό and καλύπτω meaning 'un-covering'), translated literally from Greek refers to a revelation of something hidden, although this sense did not enter English until the 14th century.[1] In religious contexts it is usually a revelation of hidden meaning - hidden from human knowledge in an era dominated by falsehood and misconception.


Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apocalypse (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apocalypse)

Apocalypse = uncovering. How can you uncover Peshat? You cannot, because Peshat requires no uncovering, it is understood by simply reading it. Only Sod requires uncovering.

The book of Revelation was written in code for a reason: if it wasn't, we almost certainly wouldn't have it today. Those who had the power over the Bible would have seen themselves identified in it and would gone to every effort to destroy it off the face of the earth. Can you imagine if Revelation 13:2 was written in 'clear text', in Peshat? If I were to say here on the forum what this verse means in clear text, I would probably get myself banned!

Take a look here:

http://www.betemunah.org/remez.html (http://www.betemunah.org/remez.html)

They seem to be Messianic Jews, and they show a chart stating the Sod approach should be used for interpreting Revelation, not Peshat. That is the same understanding we as Adventists have...

My friend, we are not violating Peshat in our interpretation of Revelation, you are neglecting to apply Sod where necessary.
Title: Re: The SDA church is God's remnant church of Revelation....
Post by: drewhemm on Fri Dec 07, 2012 - 23:32:58
Moreover, the vision John saw in Revelation 7 is a fulfilment of the prophecy in Ezekiel 9:

Quote
4. And the LORD said unto him, Go through the midst of the city, through the midst of Jerusalem, and set a mark upon the foreheads of the men that sigh and that cry for all the abominations that be done in the midst thereof.


Should Peshat be used for the interpretation of this chapter as well? If so, when did these events literally occur?

By applying the Sod approach of interpretation to Revelation 7, one cannot merely suggest that it could be referring to a non-literal number of non-literal Jews from non-literal tribes - Sod expressly excludes the possibility of a literal interpretation as the true meaning cannot be inferred from the simple reading of the text, else there would be no mystery and therefore no revelation (in the literal sense of the word).

I humbly recommend you dig more deeply into the word (Sod being the deepest of the four methods of Jewish exegesis) and find another interpretation, one that does justice to the necessity of the true meaning being hidden from the eyes of the casual reader. I understand that doing so requires the modification of some currently-held beliefs, but do we obtain our beliefs from the word, or impose them upon it?

Quote
Another way of looking at these four levels is as layers, concentric spheres that overlap each other like layers of an onion. Pshat represents the most outer, obvious layer, while Sod represents the most hidden, inner, and essential layer. In fact, Sod, being the most inner layer, is said to be enclothed by Drush, which is enclothed by Remez, all of which are enclothed by the most outer layer, Pshat.


Source: http://www.torah.org/learning/perceptions/5764/yisro.html (http://www.torah.org/learning/perceptions/5764/yisro.html)
Title: Re: The SDA church is God's remnant church of Revelation....
Post by: hammer123 on Sat Dec 08, 2012 - 15:17:07
Just as Catholics and other religious groups are misguided, so is the SDA.  The Church is the body of born again Christians, not a religious group with a title next to it.  There are born again Christians spread about all around the world in many different groups with titles next to them.
Title: Re: The SDA church is God's remnant church of Revelation....
Post by: drewhemm on Sun Dec 09, 2012 - 06:34:05
Just as Catholics and other religious groups are misguided, so is the SDA.  The Church is the body of born again Christians, not a religious group with a title next to it.  Their are born again Christians spread about all around the world in many different groups with titles next to them.


I think you are trying to make two points here, so I shall try and respond to both:


In the beginning, God related with humanity face-to-face, as we see He walked in the garden of Eden with Adam (Genesis 3:8,9). After our sin created a necessary separation between us and God (Exodus 33:20, Isaiah 59:2), God began to raise a people who could represent Him (Exodus 2:24-25, Exodus 3:7, Exodus 9:13). From that time onward, God has maintained a relationship with a specific people, not because of their own merit, but because that was the method He established. There are examples of where God worked miracles via individuals, but that is not the overall story of the Old Testament.

Then we reach the New Testament. Do we see God favouring individualism over organisation? Consider Acts 1:8, 2:32, 3:15 and 5:32 and see how God used collective witness. Why? Because any message has more credibility when it shared by more than one person. The Old Testament laws prohibited the execution of criminals based on the testimony of a single witness.

In the New Testament, we see that the early Christian church had a headquarters and that there was an established body that dealt with theological questions (Acts 15:2).

I could provide many more New Testament examples of where God directed His people to work in an organised, corporate (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/corporate) (in the sense of pertaining to a united group) manner. I would therefore have to ask, why do you think God ceased to work in this manner?

In answer to the second point, which is somewhat more subjective than the first, I would ask the question: if God did have a remnant people that could be identified by its title, what would be it's characteristics and its mission? If you consider this question Biblically, you should come to the same conclusion we have. I offer Revelation 12:17, 14:12 and 19:10 as starting points.

Does having a remnant people mean that God does not invite outsiders in? We say there is no such restriction; anyone is free to and indeed invited to join God's remnant people. John 10:16 is one of many texts we could offer to support this perspective.
Title: Re: The SDA church is God's remnant church of Revelation....
Post by: DaveW on Sun Dec 09, 2012 - 09:30:25

I must have missed this reply, otherwise I would have responded earlier. You say Peshat should be used for interpreting Revelation, including chapter 7 and including verses 4-8? How can you be certain that Sod should not be used here? Can you interpret verses 1-3 and 9-17 using Peshat?


I am familiar with all 4 levels of interpretation; Peshat, Remez, Drash and Sod.  For those who are not:

Quote
Peshat: often inaccurately translated as literal, Peshat comes from the root which means simple, although Peshat is sometimes anything but simple! Peshat correctly means the intended meaning (the opposite of Drash! see below). The problem is, one person's peshat is another person's drash!

Remez: alluded meaning (reading between the lines). Remez in modern Hebrew means hint. Traditionally, remez referred to methods such as gematria (word-number values)

Drash: drawn out meaning. Homiletical or interpretative meaning. The word 'midrash' is from the same root. The drash is an interpretation that is not explicit in the text, in other words, not pshat.

Sod: (lit. secret). The mystical or esoteric meaning.
http://www.kolel.org/pages/5764/ekev.html (http://www.kolel.org/pages/5764/ekev.html)

You see it is not one or the other.  Most time it both/and. All Semitic writing has multiple levels of meaning, and Semitic speakers who write in other languages take that aspect along with them.

As for Peshat, the plain meaning is the base for all other meanings.  You cannot have Sod without Peshat first. 

So your wanting a Sod mystical meaning is fine but it does not exist without Peshat being true also.
Title: Re: The SDA church is God's remnant church of Revelation....
Post by: drewhemm on Sun Dec 09, 2012 - 12:40:23
I am familiar with all 4 levels of interpretation; Peshat, Remez, Drash and Sod.  For those who are not:

Quote
Peshat: often inaccurately translated as literal, Peshat comes from the root which means simple, although Peshat is sometimes anything but simple! Peshat correctly means the intended meaning (the opposite of Drash! see below). The problem is, one person's peshat is another person's drash!

Remez: alluded meaning (reading between the lines). Remez in modern Hebrew means hint. Traditionally, remez referred to methods such as gematria (word-number values)

Drash: drawn out meaning. Homiletical or interpretative meaning. The word 'midrash' is from the same root. The drash is an interpretation that is not explicit in the text, in other words, not pshat.

Sod: (lit. secret). The mystical or esoteric meaning.
[url]http://www.kolel.org/pages/5764/ekev.html[/url] ([url]http://www.kolel.org/pages/5764/ekev.html[/url])

You see it is not one or the other.  Most time it both/and. All Semitic writing has multiple levels of meaning, and Semitic speakers who write in other languages take that aspect along with them.

As for Peshat, the plain meaning is the base for all other meanings.  You cannot have Sod without Peshat first. 

So your wanting a Sod mystical meaning is fine but it does not exist without Peshat being true also.


The source you quote still supports our interpretation. That is, that the number of people, their genealogy and the specific tribes they are from do not need to be literal as you originally asserted, any more than the words "an eye for an eye", need to be understood literally, even though they are interpreted with Peshat. If you will at least agree to that, I will be happy and we can agree to disagree over who we believe these tribes represent.
Title: Re: The SDA church is God's remnant church of Revelation....
Post by: hammer123 on Sun Dec 09, 2012 - 13:02:36
Just as Catholics and other religious groups are misguided, so is the SDA.  The Church is the body of born again Christians, not a religious group with a title next to it.  Their are born again Christians spread about all around the world in many different groups with titles next to them.


I think you are trying to make two points here, so I shall try and respond to both:

  • God no longer has a remnant people that can be identified by a title
  • Even if God did still have a remnant people identified by a title, it wouldn't be the Seventh-day Adventist Church

In the beginning, God related with humanity face-to-face, as we see He walked in the garden of Eden with Adam (Genesis 3:8,9). After our sin created a necessary separation between us and God (Exodus 33:20, Isaiah 59:2), God began to raise a people who could represent Him (Exodus 2:24-25, Exodus 3:7, Exodus 9:13). From that time onward, God has maintained a relationship with a specific people, not because of their own merit, but because that was the method He established. There are examples of where God worked miracles via individuals, but that is not the overall story of the Old Testament.

Then we reach the New Testament. Do we see God favouring individualism over organisation? Consider Acts 1:8, 2:32, 3:15 and 5:32 and see how God used collective witness. Why? Because any message has more credibility when it shared by more than one person. The Old Testament laws prohibited the execution of criminals based on the testimony of a single witness.

In the New Testament, we see that the early Christian church had a headquarters and that there was an established body that dealt with theological questions (Acts 15:2).

I could provide many more New Testament examples of where God directed His people to work in an organised, corporate ([url]http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/corporate[/url]) (in the sense of pertaining to a united group) manner. I would therefore have to ask, why do you think God ceased to work in this manner?

In answer to the second point, which is somewhat more subjective than the first, I would ask the question: if God did have a remnant people that could be identified by its title, what would be it's characteristics and its mission? If you consider this question Biblically, you should come to the same conclusion we have. I offer Revelation 12:17, 14:12 and 19:10 as starting points.

Does having a remnant people mean that God does not invite outsiders in? We say there is no such restriction; anyone is free to and indeed invited to join God's remnant people. John 10:16 is one of many texts we could offer to support this perspective.


I find it strange that many SDA a members attack the Catholic Church, but both SDA and the Catholic Church believe in the ONE CHURCH.
Title: Re: The SDA church is God's remnant church of Revelation....
Post by: drewhemm on Sun Dec 09, 2012 - 17:39:32
I find it strange that many SDA a members attack the Catholic Church, but both SDA and the Catholic Church believe in the ONE CHURCH.

It's not that it's the pet issue of a few members, it is our understanding as a denomination. If you go to any Adventist Church, anywhere in the world and ask, they should all give you the same answer on the subject.

You are right in saying both the Adventist Church and the Catholic Church both claim to be God's true church. The issue of which came first is not the deciding factor. Judaism came before Christianity and non-Messianic Jews claim that Christianity is a sect, a cult, a lie etc. Sound familiar? The Jews are/were (depending on your point of view) the Lord's chosen people, but due to their refusal to fulfil their God-given mission, the gauntlet had to pass to another. We Christians now need to "provoke [the Jews] to jealousy" to belief in Christ (Romans 11:11-12).

I just posted in another thread, which could be seen as the flip-side to this one:

http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/seventh-day-adventist-forum-(sda)/is-the-roman-catholic-church-christian-or-pagan/msg1054776231/#msg1054776231 (http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/seventh-day-adventist-forum-(sda)/is-the-roman-catholic-church-christian-or-pagan/msg1054776231/#msg1054776231)

Please excuse the title, it's not mine!