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Author Topic: Pope Benedict XVI says your life depends upon worshiping on Sunday?  (Read 5968 times)

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Offline drewhemm

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Re: Pope Benedict XVI says your life depends upon worshiping on Sunday?
« Reply #70 on: Fri Dec 07, 2012 - 07:37:05 »
OK, if we go with Sabbath as any day of rest why do we get SDAs arguing so much about the Sabbath being Saturday in threads like:

Who changed Sabbath from Saturday to Sunday?

Honoring the Sabbath, the Fourth Commandment

There seems to be a contradiction in SDA arguments here.


Quite simple. A sabbath can be any day of the week dedicated to rest or religious activities. The feast sabbaths of the old testament could fall on any day of the week. But this in no way diminished the holiness of the seventh-day Sabbath which God sanctified after creation. The problem therefore arises when two things happen:

1. Another day of the week, one not sanctified by God is put forward as replacing the seventh-day Sabbath; and I mean in practical terms. Whether it is called the Sabbath or not is irrelevant to this point. It is the act of forsaking the holy and replacing it with the common. It is a form of idolatry. This has already happened and is continuing as the push to establish Sunday as a State-recognised day of rest is growing in strength. Moreover, documents such as Dies Domini and the recent Preparatory Catecheses for the Seventh World Meeting of Families, show that there is a push for greater recognition of Sunday as a day for Christian rest and worship.

2. Observance of the true Sabbath becomes outlawed and/or people are forced to work on this day. This has happened in the past and we believe it will happen again. I provided evidence of when this has happened in the past in another thread:

http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/seventh-day-adventist-forum-(sda)/law-vs-grace-a-false-argument/msg1054774979/#msg1054774979

Here in Europe, the standard working week across all sectors is increasing from five days to six. At the same time, discussions are ongoing to exclude Sunday from the working week. That means people will have to work on the Sabbath if they want to get/keep a job:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2012/sep/04/eurozone-six-day-week-greece

During the inquisitions here in Spain, the State obliged Muslim families to keep their doors open on Fridays to ensure no-one was secretly worshipping inside their homes. A similar state of affairs existed recently during the time of Franco. So we are not fantasising when we say it can and will happen again. Why do you think the theme of Holocaust museums is 'Never again'? A theme like that would not be necessary if in a modern world of liberal democracies, the repetition of such a thing was considered implausible.

Quote
The Spanish Inquisitions affected the Muslims living in Spain greatly. Shortly after 1492, when the last outpost of Muslim presence in the Iberian peninsula, Granada, was conquered, the Spanish decreed that all Muslims and Jews must either vacate the peninsula without their belongings or convert to Christianity. Many people overtly converted to keep their possessions, while secretly practiced their religion. Muslims who converted only overtly were called Moriscos. Moriscos were required to wear upon their caps and turbans a blue crescent, which brought upon them taunts and violence of a fanatical population. Traveling without a permit meant a death sentence. This systematic suppression forced the Muslims to seek refuge in mountainous regions of southern Andalusia; Ronda was one such refuge.

On May 25, 1566 Philip II decreed the use of the Arabic language (written or spoken) illegal, doors to homes to remain open on Fridays to verify that no Muslim Friday prayers were conducted, and heavy taxation on Moriscos trades.


Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ronda
« Last Edit: Fri Dec 07, 2012 - 08:00:41 by drewhemm »

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Re: Pope Benedict XVI says your life depends upon worshiping on Sunday?
« Reply #70 on: Fri Dec 07, 2012 - 07:37:05 »

Offline drewhemm

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Re: Pope Benedict XVI says your life depends upon worshiping on Sunday?
« Reply #71 on: Fri Dec 07, 2012 - 07:55:38 »
Another interesting fact from history. During the Spanish Inquisition, even people who 'converted' to the state religion were hunted down and persecuted if it was seen that they retained any of their past religious practices:

Quote
The man in charge of the proceedings, the inquisitor, ignored the woman's panicked squeals and read through the charges levied against her. Witnesses had previously testified that on several successive Saturdays, smoke did not emerge from the woman's chimney, a strong indication that she was secretly a practicing Jew. Judaism forbids manual labor on the Sabbath, and starting a fire was considered manual labor. During questioning the woman had insisted that although she was born a Jew, she was now a converse, a convert to Catholicism. But the telltale signs, which were outlined by the Grand Inquisitor himself, Tomas de Torquemada, indicated that she was in fact a heretic, a practicing Jew pretending to be a Catholic and secretly subverting the Catholic faith.


Source: http://www.trutv.com/library/crime/notorious_murders/mass/torquemada/index.html

When church and state combine - watch out! I'm sure we've all heard the term 'thought police'?

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Re: Pope Benedict XVI says your life depends upon worshiping on Sunday?
« Reply #71 on: Fri Dec 07, 2012 - 07:55:38 »

Offline DaveW

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Re: Pope Benedict XVI says your life depends upon worshiping on Sunday?
« Reply #72 on: Fri Dec 07, 2012 - 08:29:53 »
Another interesting fact from history. During the Spanish Inquisition, even people who 'converted' to the state religion were hunted down and persecuted if it was seen that they retained any of their past religious practices:
Quote
The man in charge of the proceedings, the inquisitor, ignored the woman's panicked squeals and read through the charges levied against her. Witnesses had previously testified that on several successive Saturdays, smoke did not emerge from the woman's chimney, a strong indication that she was secretly a practicing Jew. Judaism forbids manual labor on the Sabbath, and starting a fire was considered manual labor. During questioning the woman had insisted that although she was born a Jew, she was now a converso, a convert to Catholicism. But the telltale signs, which were outlined by the Grand Inquisitor himself, Tomas de Torquemada, indicated that she was in fact a heretic, a practicing Jew pretending to be a Catholic and secretly subverting the Catholic faith.

Source: http://www.trutv.com/library/crime/notorious_murders/mass/torquemada/index.html

When church and state combine - watch out!


That is one of the issues brought up by the Toward Jerusalem Council II team to Catholic leaders in Spain back around 2000.

My Son in law (married to my youngest daughter) is the descendant of Spanish Converso and Crypto Jews.

Converso = Jews forced to convert to Catholicism

Crypto = 'converted' Jews who secretly continued to observe Jewish laws and customs
« Last Edit: Fri Dec 07, 2012 - 08:38:37 by DaveW »

Offline drewhemm

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Re: Pope Benedict XVI says your life depends upon worshiping on Sunday?
« Reply #73 on: Fri Dec 07, 2012 - 08:43:14 »
That is one of the issues brought up by the Toward Jerusalem Council II team to Catholic leaders in Spain back around 2000.

Dialogue is course a good thing; but, was an apology ever made? or a guarantee that such a thing could never again occur with the blessing of the church?, or that if such a thing were to happen at the behest of the state, the church would lend its significant diplomatic voice to denounce it?
« Last Edit: Fri Dec 07, 2012 - 08:50:11 by drewhemm »

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Re: Pope Benedict XVI says your life depends upon worshiping on Sunday?
« Reply #73 on: Fri Dec 07, 2012 - 08:43:14 »

Offline drewhemm

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Re: Pope Benedict XVI says your life depends upon worshiping on Sunday?
« Reply #74 on: Fri Dec 07, 2012 - 08:48:01 »
Dialogue is course a good thing; but, was an apology ever made? or a guarantee that such a thing could never again occur with the blessing of the church?, or that if such a thing were to happen on the behest of the state, the church would lend its significant diplomatic voice to denounce it?


Well, I found something that is kind of an apology:

Quote
To foster repentance for the sins of Gentile Christians and the Christian Church against the Jewish people, especially for the suppression of the corporate Jewish witness to Yeshua, the Messiah.


Source: http://www.tjcii.org/toward-jerusalem-council-ii-vision-statement.htm

Winsome, is this an official Catholic website or an obscure third-party one? Does this apology actually have the approval of the Holy See?

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Re: Pope Benedict XVI says your life depends upon worshiping on Sunday?
« Reply #74 on: Fri Dec 07, 2012 - 08:48:01 »



Offline drewhemm

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Re: Pope Benedict XVI says your life depends upon worshiping on Sunday?
« Reply #75 on: Fri Dec 07, 2012 - 09:06:03 »
Converso = Jews forced to convert to Catholicism


Forgive me, but I must take issue with this definition. No-one was ever forced to convert to Catholicism during the Inquisitions. What you mean is that the person, of their own free-will chose conversion over death:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Converso

I would have chosen death.

Offline drewhemm

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Re: Pope Benedict XVI says your life depends upon worshiping on Sunday?
« Reply #76 on: Fri Dec 07, 2012 - 09:10:57 »
And that is the way the Inquisitors themselves viewed the matter:

Quote
The assertion that "confessionem esse veram, non factam vi tormentorum" (literally: ((a person's)) confession is truth, not made by way of torture.) sometimes follows a description of how, after torture had ended, the subject freely confessed to the offenses.[68] Thus, all confession acquired by means of torture were considered completely valid as they were supposedly made of the confessor's own free will.


Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_Inquisition#Torture

Offline drewhemm

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Re: Pope Benedict XVI says your life depends upon worshiping on Sunday?
« Reply #77 on: Fri Dec 07, 2012 - 09:24:44 »
I would have chosen death.

Mark 8:

34 And when he had called the people unto him with his disciples also, he said unto them, Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
35 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel's, the same shall save it.
36 For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?
37 Or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?
38 Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the holy angels.

Revelation 2:10 "Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life."

Revelation 13:15 "And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed."

I just pray the Lord will give me the faith and holy boldness in tribulation to stand by the decisions I make now in times of peace. I know that fear will try to gain the advantage, but Jesus said many times, "fear not".

What did Jesus mean when he said he who saves his life shall lose it?

Revelation 14:

9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

Offline DaveW

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Re: Pope Benedict XVI says your life depends upon worshiping on Sunday?
« Reply #78 on: Fri Dec 07, 2012 - 09:42:36 »
And that is the way the Inquisitors themselves viewed the matter:
Quote
The assertion that "confessionem esse veram, non factam vi tormentorum" (literally: ((a person's)) confession is truth, not made by way of torture.) sometimes follows a description of how, after torture had ended, the subject freely confessed to the offenses.[68] Thus, all confession acquired by means of torture were considered completely valid as they were supposedly made of the confessor's own free will.

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_Inquisition#Torture


Correct. That was one reason the Inquisition took off in the first place.  The kings of Spain and Portugal issued a decree in March of 1492 that all the Jews had to be off the Iberian peninsula by October of that year. Some local officials who found Jews still living there gave them a choice: become Catholic or die.  Most died - some converted "conversos." Many of them eventually became true catholic believers, others stayed as hidden Jews (crypto-Jews). Some held a blend of the 2 religions.

So along comes the Inquisition first in Spain proper then the rest of Europe and then into the Americas to root out the crypto-Jews. BTW, that ended about the same time as World War 1 (early 20th century)

My SIL has done extensive research on this from both Jewish and Catholic sources.

Offline drewhemm

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Re: Pope Benedict XVI says your life depends upon worshiping on Sunday?
« Reply #79 on: Fri Dec 07, 2012 - 09:55:56 »
My SIL has done extensive research on this from both Jewish and Catholic sources.

Then you know and understand just how important religious liberty is and why its abrogation in a globalised world would have climatic consequences. Our specific eschatology may differ somewhat, but I think you can appreciate what we believe, and why we feel the need to warn people about it.

By the way, what is a SIL?

Offline winsome

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Re: Pope Benedict XVI says your life depends upon worshiping on Sunday?
« Reply #80 on: Fri Dec 07, 2012 - 10:06:54 »
OK, if we go with Sabbath as any day of rest why do we get SDAs arguing so much about the Sabbath being Saturday in threads like:

Who changed Sabbath from Saturday to Sunday?

Honoring the Sabbath, the Fourth Commandment

There seems to be a contradiction in SDA arguments here.


Quite simple. A sabbath can be any day of the week dedicated to rest or religious activities. The feast sabbaths of the old testament could fall on any day of the week. But this in no way diminished the holiness of the seventh-day Sabbath which God sanctified after creation. The problem therefore arises when two things happen:

1. Another day of the week, one not sanctified by God is put forward as replacing the seventh-day Sabbath; and I mean in practical terms. Whether it is called the Sabbath or not is irrelevant to this point. It is the act of forsaking the holy and replacing it with the common. It is a form of idolatry. This has already happened and is continuing as the push to establish Sunday as a State-recognised day of rest is growing in strength. Moreover, documents such as Dies Domini and the recent Preparatory Catecheses for the Seventh World Meeting of Families, show that there is a push for greater recognition of Sunday as a day for Christian rest and worship.

2. Observance of the true Sabbath becomes outlawed and/or people are forced to work on this day. This has happened in the past and we believe it will happen again. I provided evidence of when this has happened in the past in another thread:

http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/seventh-day-adventist-forum-(sda)/law-vs-grace-a-false-argument/msg1054774979/#msg1054774979

Here in Europe, the standard working week across all sectors is increasing from five days to six. At the same time, discussions are ongoing to exclude Sunday from the working week. That means people will have to work on the Sabbath if they want to get/keep a job:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2012/sep/04/eurozone-six-day-week-greece

During the inquisitions here in Spain, the State obliged Muslim families to keep their doors open on Fridays to ensure no-one was secretly worshipping inside their homes. A similar state of affairs existed recently during the time of Franco. So we are not fantasising when we say it can and will happen again. Why do you think the theme of Holocaust museums is 'Never again'? A theme like that would not be necessary if in a modern world of liberal democracies, the repetition of such a thing was considered implausible.

Quote
The Spanish Inquisitions affected the Muslims living in Spain greatly. Shortly after 1492, when the last outpost of Muslim presence in the Iberian peninsula, Granada, was conquered, the Spanish decreed that all Muslims and Jews must either vacate the peninsula without their belongings or convert to Christianity. Many people overtly converted to keep their possessions, while secretly practiced their religion. Muslims who converted only overtly were called Moriscos. Moriscos were required to wear upon their caps and turbans a blue crescent, which brought upon them taunts and violence of a fanatical population. Traveling without a permit meant a death sentence. This systematic suppression forced the Muslims to seek refuge in mountainous regions of southern Andalusia; Ronda was one such refuge.

On May 25, 1566 Philip II decreed the use of the Arabic language (written or spoken) illegal, doors to homes to remain open on Fridays to verify that no Muslim Friday prayers were conducted, and heavy taxation on Moriscos trades.


Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ronda


I'm not going to get involved in your Catholic bashing.

Offline DaveW

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Re: Pope Benedict XVI says your life depends upon worshiping on Sunday?
« Reply #81 on: Fri Dec 07, 2012 - 10:08:41 »
By the way, what is a SIL?

Internet shortcut for Son in Law.  (could also stand for Sister in Law)

There is a whole list of these shortcuts somewhere around these forums.


Offline drewhemm

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Re: Pope Benedict XVI says your life depends upon worshiping on Sunday?
« Reply #82 on: Fri Dec 07, 2012 - 10:15:27 »
I'm not going to get involved in your Catholic bashing.


What would you offer as an objective definition for such a term as 'Catholic bashing'? I do not find it in the dictionary...

Recounting history is surely not in itself an act of prejudice, otherwise the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum (USHMM) would be guilty of prejudice against the German people:

http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article.php?ModuleId=10005143

Likewise, the act of drawing people's attention to current events where they show a trend that the past will repeat itself should not be cast in a negative light. Again I take example from the USHMM as they list on their site places where genocide is currently occurring or is in danger of occurring:

http://www.ushmm.org/genocide/take_action/atrisk

Apologies if I offend you; prejudice is not my motivator.

Offline winsome

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Re: Pope Benedict XVI says your life depends upon worshiping on Sunday?
« Reply #83 on: Fri Dec 07, 2012 - 10:33:25 »
I'm not going to get involved in your Catholic bashing.


What would you offer as an objective definition for such a term as 'Catholic bashing'? I do not find it in the dictionary...

Recounting history is surely not in itself an act of prejudice, otherwise the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum (USHMM) would be guilty of prejudice against the German people:

http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article.php?ModuleId=10005143

Likewise, the act of drawing people's attention to current events where they show a trend that the past will repeat itself should not be cast in a negative light. Again I take example from the USHMM as they list on their site places where genocide is currently occurring or is in danger of occurring:

http://www.ushmm.org/genocide/take_action/atrisk

Apologies if I offend you; prejudice is not my motivator.


Once someone starts dragging up the inquisition, something that happened (and very regrettably) some 400 years ago, then as far as I am concerned they are just into Catholic bashing.

You can call it whatever you like.

I'm not interested in pursing that route. I shall drop out of this thread.

God bless

Offline drewhemm

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Re: Pope Benedict XVI says your life depends upon worshiping on Sunday?
« Reply #84 on: Fri Dec 07, 2012 - 10:41:58 »
Once someone starts dragging up the inquisition, something that happened (and very regrettably) some 400 years ago, then as far as I am concerned they are just into Catholic bashing.

If it's any consolation, whilst we can see examples of the abrogation of religious liberty in history via events such as the Inquisition, and the Franco dictatorship, and whilst we draw attention to the current efforts of the Catholic church to solemnize Sunday rest, we do not believe the Catholic church will be the primary player if and when similar events occur in the future. In our understanding of prophecy, that role will go to the United States.

That doesn't make us anti-American. The Adventist church was founded in North America and has its headquarters there to this day; it is simply our understanding of prophecy.


Offline drewhemm

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Re: Pope Benedict XVI says your life depends upon worshiping on Sunday?
« Reply #85 on: Fri Dec 07, 2012 - 10:46:42 »
In our understanding of prophecy, that role will go to the United States.

Forgot to say, specifically Protestantism in the United States, not Catholicism.

Offline DaveW

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Re: Pope Benedict XVI says your life depends upon worshiping on Sunday?
« Reply #86 on: Fri Dec 07, 2012 - 10:50:01 »
Source: http://www.tjcii.org/toward-jerusalem-council-ii-vision-statement.htm

Winsome, is this an official Catholic website or an obscure third-party one? Does this apology actually have the approval of the Holy See?

No it is not a Catholic site.  It is a group of Messianic leaders, protestant pastors and theologians and at least one catholic theologian working toward the goals in the referenced vision statement.

Edited to add:

This is from the April 2005 TJCII newsletter:


Quote
Why “Toward”?
By Fr. Peter Hocken

The initiative this Communiqué presents is called “Toward Jerusalem
Council Two” (TJCII). The vision first received by Marty Waldman of
Dallas, Texas, and confirmed by others who became founding members of TJCII, is that
one day there will be a second Council of Jerusalem, that will be the inverse of the first
Council described in Acts 15. Whereas the first Council was a totally Jewish gathering
convened to decide the conditions under which Gentiles or pagans could enter the
Church, the vision for the second Council is for a gathering of Jewish and Gentile leaders
at which the leaders from the Christian churches would recognise the rightful place
of all Jewish believers in Yeshua (Jesus). As this would be accepted by the Jewish leaders,
full fellowship would be restored between Jew and Gentile in Messiah.

But why is the word “Toward” in  the title of the initiative? The first reason is
that the executive committee of TJCII does not represent Church leadership. The
executive is a group of leaders, one half drawn from the Messianic Jewish movement
and the other half from individual leaders and pastors with a commitment to this vision.
While the initiative has been welcomed by the two major Messianic Jewish organisations in
the USA, the Christians on the executive from various churches and denominations do not
have the authority to represent their parent bodies. As a committee, we do not have the
right or the authority to call a Council of the whole Church. But as believers convinced
that this initiative is from the Holy Spirit, we have the faith to believe that the Lord will use
our humble efforts as part of the process to create the conditions in which such a Council
can take place. Hence, we who form the executive of TJCII see ourselves as servants of the
Lord to facilitate a second Council of Jerusalem, not as those who can ourselves call
and organise such an event.


Whole article at http://www.tjcii.org/userfiles/File/2005_April%281%29.pdf
« Last Edit: Fri Dec 07, 2012 - 11:15:20 by DaveW »

Offline DaveW

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Re: Pope Benedict XVI says your life depends upon worshiping on Sunday?
« Reply #87 on: Fri Dec 07, 2012 - 10:54:40 »
There is no Jewish rite in the Catholic Church, Dave.  There just isn't.  I believe that what you heard about such a rite is pure fabrication.


Perhaps this may help:  From the Feb 2004 TJCII newsletter

Quote
Unprecedented Vatican Decision

In November, Fr. Jean-Baptiste Gourion was ordained the first bishop for the Hebrew
Catholic community of Israel. Bp. Gourion was brought up in Algeria in a French Jewish family. He
came to faith in Yeshua in France as a young man and became a Benedictine monk. In the early
1970’s he was involved in the beginnings of Catholic charismatic renewal in France, and he went to
Israel in the late 1970’s as a founding member of a new monastery in Abu Ghosh.

The Vatican’s decision of his appointment was unprecedented and represents a significant
enhancement of recognition of the distinctiveness of the Hebrew Catholics, which is in sharp
contrast to the historic church policy that repressed and persecuted any expression or practice of
Jewish identity by baptized believers. For this reason, this appointment is important for all who
welcome the TJC II vision for the reconciliation of all Jewish and Gentile believers in Yeshua ha
Mashiach.

Dan Juster, Johannes Fichtenbauer, and Peter Hocken all know Bp. Gourion, who for
some years has shown an interest in the Messianic Jewish community in Israel. Three of our
Messianic Israeli brothers were invited and attended the ordination. At the close of the bishop’s
ordination address, he said in Hebrew, “Finally we have come home.”


http://www.tjcii.org/userfiles/File/2004_February.pdf

 

     
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