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Offline World Calendar

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Re: The Seventh-day Adventist church endorses the Keeping of Sunday
« Reply #35 on: Wed Jan 11, 2012 - 18:33:30 »

Quote
Worse than that.  Go back to Creation where the Bible explicitly tells you that the weekly cycle is 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, Sabbath--sunset to sunset.  No need to look at the moon whatsoever.


There are <b>seven days in the week, and the seventh day is the Sabbath</b>.  I never said otherwise. What I said is the the week is not continuously cycling, but starts again at the beginning of each month.  Genesis does not say anything about a continuous weekly cycle, but it does talk about the moon.

Quote
Genesis 1.14
And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for <b>SEASONS</b>, and for days, and years.


The word for <b>SEASONS</b> is Strongs #4150, "religious festivals".  Notice that Genesis 1:14 says that the "religious festivals" are designated by the "lights in ... heaven".

Just in case someone should say that Genesis 1.14 does not say the word "Moon", I will refer to Psalm 104.19:

Quote
Psalm 104.19
He appointed the moon for seasons [#4150]...


And, by the way, "sunset to sunset" is another tradition. Both the Romans (midnight) and the Pharisees (sunset) begin their days at night.  YHWH didn't.

http://www.thecreatorscalendar.com/Articles/Word_Studies/Genesis_1_1-5.html

http://world-calendar.info/passionweek.htm


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Re: The Seventh-day Adventist church endorses the Keeping of Sunday
« Reply #35 on: Wed Jan 11, 2012 - 18:33:30 »

Offline DaveW

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Re: The Seventh-day Adventist church endorses the Keeping of Sunday
« Reply #36 on: Wed Jan 11, 2012 - 18:46:39 »
Yes the moon and the seasons and festivals are all interlinked. 

But you have yet to show one shred of evidence that the week days start over if the New Moon occurs mid-week.

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Re: The Seventh-day Adventist church endorses the Keeping of Sunday
« Reply #36 on: Wed Jan 11, 2012 - 18:46:39 »

Offline djconklin

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Re: The Seventh-day Adventist church endorses the Keeping of Sunday
« Reply #37 on: Wed Jan 11, 2012 - 21:35:32 »
>What I said is the the week is not continuously cycling

It does. Nowhere does the Bible say anything different.

>And, by the way, "sunset to sunset" is another tradition. Both the Romans (midnight) and the Pharisees (sunset) begin their days at night.  YHWH didn't.

Hmmm, can find the post where I already covered that:

Genesis 1:5   ... And the evening and the morning were the first day. -- i.e., sunset to sunset
Genesis 1:8  ... And the evening and the morning were the second day.
Genesis 1:13  And the evening and the morning were the third day.
Genesis 1:19  And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.
Genesis 1:23  And the evening and the morning were the fifth day.
Genesis 1:31  ... And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

Straight Bible, no tradition.

Offline World Calendar

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Re: The Seventh-day Adventist church endorses the Keeping of Sunday
« Reply #38 on: Thu Jan 12, 2012 - 20:19:39 »
From previous post:
Quote
Genesis 1:5   ... And the evening and the morning were the first day. -- i.e., sunset to sunset
Genesis 1:8  ... And the evening and the morning were the second day.
Genesis 1:13  And the evening and the morning were the third day.
Genesis 1:19  And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.
Genesis 1:23  And the evening and the morning were the fifth day.
Genesis 1:31  ... And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

You said that "evening and the morning" equated to "sunset to sunset".  But "sunset to sunset" would be "evening to evening", not "evening to morning".

I will describe Genesis in more detail in another post, but will first discuss a text often used to justify a "sunset to sunset" reckoning.

Traditionally, Leviticus 23:32 "from even unto even, shall ye celebrate your sabbath" has been used to demonstate that the days start at evening. But those same verses in Leviticus <b>prove the opposite</b>. Here is the complete text from Leviticus:

Quote
Leviticus
23.26 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, 23.27 Also on <b>the tenth day of this seventh month</b> there shall be a <b>day of atonement</b>: it shall be an holy convocation unto you; and ye shall afflict your souls, and offer an offering made by fire unto the LORD. 23.28 And ye shall do no work in that same day: for it is a day of atonement, to make an atonement for you before the LORD your God. 23.29 For whatsoever soul it be that shall not be afflicted in that same day, he shall be cut off from among his people. 23.30 And whatsoever soul it be that doeth any work in that same day, the same soul will I destroy from among his people. 23.31 Ye shall do no manner of work: it shall be a statute for ever throughout your generations in all your dwellings. 23.32 It shall be unto you a sabbath of rest, and ye shall afflict your souls: <b>in the ninth day of the month at even, from even unto even, shall ye celebrate your sabbath</b>.

Notice that this concerns the Day of Atonement, which is the <b>tenth day</b> of the month (23:27), but that the fast begins on evening of the <b>ninth</b> day of the month. (23:32). Those are <b>two adjacent days, with two different date numbers: the ninth and the tenth</b>. If the day really began in the evening, it would just be one date.  I repeat, the fact that there are two different day numbers, the 9th and 10th, show that there are two days.  The meaning? The fast for the Day of Atonement begins on the evening of the 9th, but the actual Day of Atonement is on the 10th.

At this point it is instructive to give some <b>practical examples from Scripture</b>.

Quote
<b>Exodus 10.13</b>

And Moses stretched forth his rod over the land of Egypt, and the LORD brought an east wind upon the land <b>all that day, and all that night; and when it was morning</b>, the east wind brought the locusts.

Quote
<b>Exodus 16.22-27</b>

And it came to pass, that on the sixth day they gathered twice as much bread, two omers for one man: and all the rulers of the congregation came and told Moses. 16.23 And he said unto them, This is that which the LORD hath said, <b>To morrow is the</b> rest of the <b>holy sabbath</b> unto the LORD: bake that which ye will bake <b>to day</b>, and seethe that ye will seethe; and that which remaineth over lay up for you to be kept <b>until the morning</b>. 16.24 And they laid it up <b>till the morning</b>, as Moses bade: and it did not stink, neither was there any worm therein. 16.25 And Moses said, Eat that <b>to day; for to day is a sabbath</b> unto the LORD: to day ye shall not find it in the field. 16.26 Six days ye shall gather it; but on the seventh day, which is the sabbath, in it there shall be none. 16.27 And it came to pass, that there went out some of the people on the seventh day for to gather, and they found none.

Quote
<b>Exodus 18.13</b>

And it came to pass <b>on the morrow</b>, that Moses sat to judge the people: and the people stood by Moses <b>from the morning unto the evening</b>.

Quote
<b>Leviticus 6.20</b>

This is the offering of Aaron and of his sons, which they shall offer unto the LORD <b>in the day</b> when he is anointed; the tenth part of an ephah of fine flour for a meat offering perpetual, <b>half of it in the morning, and half thereof at night</b>.

Quote
<b>Leviticus 7.15</b>
And the flesh of the sacrifice of his peace offerings for thanksgiving shall be <b>eaten the same day</b> that it is offered; he shall <b>not leave any of it until the morning</b>.

Quote
<b>Numbers 11.32</b>
And the people stood up <b>all that day, and all that night, and all the next day</b>, and they gathered the quails ...

Quote
<b>Joshua</b>
7.6 And Joshua rent his clothes, and fell to the earth upon his face before the ark of the LORD <b>until the eventide</b>, he and the elders of Israel, and put dust upon their heads. .... 7.10 And the LORD said unto Joshua,  Get thee up; wherefore liest thou thus upon thy face? .... 7.13 Up, sanctify the people, and say, Sanctify yourselves
against <b>tomorrow</b>: for thus saith the LORD God of Israel ....[It was already evening, and Joshua was still lying on the ground, then the LORD talked about "tomorrow", showing that the new day had not yet begun].

Quote
<b>Judges 19.9</b>
And when the man rose up to depart, he, and his concubine, and his servant, his father in law, the damsel's father, said unto  him, Behold,  <b>now the day draweth toward evening</b>, I pray you <b>tarry all night</b>: behold, <b>the day groweth to an end</b>, lodge here, that thine heart may be merry; and <b>to morrow get you early</b> on your way, that thou mayest go home.

Quote
<b>1 Samuel 19.10</b>
And Saul sought to smite David even to the wall with the javelin; but he slipped away out of Saul's presence, and he smote the javelin into the wall: and David fled, and escaped <b>that night</b>. 19.11 Saul also sent messengers unto David's house, to watch him, and to slay him <b>in the morning</b>: and Michal David's wife told him, saying, If thou <b>save not thy life to night, to morrow</b> thou shalt be slain.

Quote
<b>Jonah 4:7</b>
But God prepared a worm <b>when the morning rose the next day</b>, and it smote the gourd that it withered.

Quote
<b>John 6.16</b>
And <b>when even was now come</b>, his disciples went down unto the sea, 6.17 And entered into a ship, and went over the sea toward Capernaum. And <b>it was now dark</b>, and Jesus was not come to them. 6.18 And the sea arose by reason of a great wind that blew. 6.19 So when ... they see Jesus walking on the sea .... 6.21  Then they willingly received him into the ship: and immediately the ship was at the land whither they went. 6.22 <b>The day following</b>, when the people which stood on the other side of the sea saw that there was none other boat there ...

These examples do <b>not</b> suggest that the day begins at sunset.  No, it begins at sunrise.

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Re: The Seventh-day Adventist church endorses the Keeping of Sunday
« Reply #38 on: Thu Jan 12, 2012 - 20:19:39 »

Offline djconklin

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Re: The Seventh-day Adventist church endorses the Keeping of Sunday
« Reply #39 on: Thu Jan 12, 2012 - 20:50:45 »
>You said that "evening and the morning" equated to "sunset to sunset".

I didn't say it; but it is true.

>But "sunset to sunset" would be "evening to evening", not "evening to morning".

Not necessarily.

>But those same verses in Leviticus prove the opposite.

The Bible never contradicts itself--it does contradict man-made theology.

>If the day really began in the evening, it would just be one date.

Not if it ran over two days, the 9th and the 10th.

>These examples do not suggest that the day begins at sunset.  No, it begins at sunrise.

They are talking about the daylight period of the day in question.  God set the standard back at Creation.

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Re: The Seventh-day Adventist church endorses the Keeping of Sunday
« Reply #39 on: Thu Jan 12, 2012 - 20:50:45 »



Offline Beta

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Re: The Seventh-day Adventist church endorses the Keeping of Sunday
« Reply #40 on: Thu Jan 12, 2012 - 21:54:31 »

Seems to me that some verses speak of either

a whole day... 24 hours, or
the night part... 12 hours, or
the day part...12 hours when it refers to night and day.

Offline World Calendar

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Re: The Seventh-day Adventist church endorses the Keeping of Sunday
« Reply #41 on: Fri Jan 13, 2012 - 09:09:35 »
   
Quote
>> Seems to me that some verses speak of either

a whole day... 24 hours, or
the night part... 12 hours, or
the day part...12 hours when it refers to night and day. <<



Correct, just as in English, the word "day" in Scriptures can refer to either:

#1 A calendar date, consisting of 24 hours, <b>sunrise to sunrise</b>
#2 The sunlight portion of the day, which is 12 hours, <b>sunrise to sunset</b>

Neither of these is "sunset to sunset".

Examples of #1, the 24 hour day, are:

Quote
Genesis 7.24 And the waters prevailed upon the earth an hundred and fifty <b>days</b>.

Genesis 17.12 And he that is eight <b>days</b> old shall be circumcised among you



Examples of #2, a 12 hour day, showing that the "day is light", and the "night is dark" are:

Quote
Genesis 1.4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness. 1.5 And God <b>called the light Day</b>, and the <b>darkness he called Night</b>.



Quote
John 11.9 Jesus answered, Are there not <b>twelve hours in the day</b>? If any man walk in <b>the day</b>, he stumbleth not,  because he seeth <b>the light</b> of this world. 11.10 But if a man walk in <b>the night</b>, he stumbleth, because there is <b>no light</b> in him.


A "work day" is 12 hours long.  <b>A "rest day" is the same length: 12 hours.</b> The "night" is not associated with "work".

Quote
John 9.4 I must work the <b>works</b> of him that sent me, <b>while it is day</b>: the <b>night</b> cometh, when <b>no man can work</b>.



Quote
>> The Bible never contradicts itself--it does contradict man-made theology. <<


Exactly. And the man-made traditions it contradicts are the following:

Rabbinic <b>tradition #1</b>: "the Sabbath is 24 hours long"
Rabbinic <b>tradition #2</b>: a "day" is from "evening to evening"

Correct Bible truth: "The Sabbath begins at sunrise, is 12 hours long, and ends at sunset."


Here is <b>proof</b> that the Sabbath <b>starts in the morning</b>.

Quote
<b>Exodus 16.22-27</b>
And it came to pass, that on the sixth day they gathered twice as much bread, two omers for one man: and all the rulers of the congregation came and told Moses. 16.23 And he said unto them, This is that which the LORD hath said, <b>To morrow is the</b> rest of the <b>holy sabbath</b> unto the LORD: bake that which ye will bake <b>to day</b>, and seethe that ye will seethe; and that which remaineth over lay up for you to be kept <b>until the morning</b>. 16.24 And they laid it up <b>till the morning</b>, as Moses bade: and it did not stink, neither was there any worm therein. 16.25 And Moses said, Eat that <b>to day; for to day is a sabbath</b> unto the LORD: to day ye shall not find it in the field. 16.26 Six days ye shall gather it; but on the seventh day, which is the sabbath, in it there shall be none. 16.27 And it came to pass, that there went out some of the people on the seventh day for to gather, and they found none.


Here is <b>proof</b> that the Sabbath <b>ends at evening</b>. This story takes place on the Sabbath. The people bring  the sick to be healed when the Sabbath had ended, at sunset, also called "at even". Here it in from 3 different Gospel writers:

Quote
Mark
1.21 And they went into Capernaum; and straightway <b>on the sabbath day he entered into the synagogue</b>, and taught. ... 1.29 And forthwith, <b>when they were come out of the synagogue</b>, they entered into the house of Simon and Andrew, with James and John.  1.30 But Simon's wife's mother lay sick of a fever ... 1.31 And he came and took her by the hand, and lifted her up ... 1.32 And <b>at even, when the sun did set</b>, they brought unto him all that were diseased, and them that were possessed with devils.

Luke
4.38 And he arose out of the synagogue, and entered into Simon's house. And Simon's wife's mother was taken with a  great fever ... 4.39 And he ... rebuked the fever ...
4.40 Now <b>when the sun was setting</b>, all they that had any sick with divers diseases brought them unto him; and  he laid his hands on every one of them, and healed them.

Matthew
8.14 And when Jesus was come into Peter's house, he saw his wife's mother laid, and sick of a fever.  8.15 And he touched her hand, and the fever left her: and she arose, and ministered unto them.  8.16 <b>When the even was come</b>, they brought unto him many that were possessed with devils: and he cast out the  spirits with his word, and healed all that were sick




Now, look at some more details in the Genesis chapter 1 account. Notice carefully the progression in the story; we  will use day 6 as an example:

Quote
23 And the evening
   and the morning were the fifth day.
24 And God said, Let the earth bring forth...
26 And God said, Let us make man in our image,                                                                 
27 So God created man ... male
   and female
28 And God blessed them, 
29 And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed
31 And God saw … and, behold, it was very good.
   And the evening
   and the morning were the sixth day
2:1 Thus the heavens and the earth were finished
2:2 And on the seventh day God ended his work … and he rested on the seventh day
3 And God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it



Notice the progression for day 6:
First, he says "Let the earth bring forth ...",
<b>And then</b> he creates the male
<b>And then</b> he creates the female
<b>And then</b> he blessed them
<b>And then</b> he told them what to eat
<b>And then</b> he saw it was good
<b>And then</b> evening

In the progression, the events are in order. "Evening" follows the Creator telling the couple what to eat. <b>By the time "evening" is mentioned, the work of that day is finished.</b>

What about the word "morning"? There can be two explanations that harmonize with the rest of Scripture.

#1 The word translated "and", Strongs Hebrew #1961, is more properly translated "followed":
"evening <b>followed</b> [#1961] the morning". For extensive word study, see:
http://www.thecreatorscalendar.com/Articles/Word_Studies/Genesis_1_1-5.html

#2 The morning refered to is the pre-sunrise dawn, right before the new day begins. So after the day's work is done,  then it is evening, then thru the night, the right before sunrise.  The next new day begins at sunrise.  That view is presented here: http://world-calendar.info/passionweek.htm

Conclusion: The Bible does not support a traditional "sunrise to sunrise" day, nor a "24 hour Sabbath": The Sabbath begins at sunrise, is 12 hours long, and ends at sunset. 



Offline DaveW

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Re: The Seventh-day Adventist church endorses the Keeping of Sunday
« Reply #42 on: Fri Jan 13, 2012 - 11:38:28 »
WorldCal - you really have some messed up ideas on time.

If you look at Leviticus 23 you will see that the day begins at sundown.

Offline World Calendar

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Re: The Seventh-day Adventist church endorses the Keeping of Sunday
« Reply #43 on: Fri Jan 13, 2012 - 22:22:29 »
From above:
Quote
If you look at Leviticus 23 you will see that the day begins at sundown.


Let's look at the actual verses from Leviticus 23.

Quote
23.5 In the fourteenth day of the first month <b>at even</b> is the LORD's passover.

So the Passover is at evening. Nothing about the start of day here. But you were probably referring to Leviticus 23:32, "from even unto even, shall ye celebrate your sabbath". I quoted this set of verses from Leviticus in <b>reply #38</b>. <em>I suggest you read that entire post.</em> For convienence, I have reprinted the information below.

Quote
Leviticus
23.26 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, 23.27 Also on <b>the tenth day of this seventh month</b> there shall be a <b>day of atonement</b>: it shall be an holy convocation unto you; and ye shall afflict your souls, and offer an offering made by fire unto the LORD. 23.28 And ye shall do no work in that same day: for it is a day of atonement, to make an atonement for you before the LORD your God. 23.29 For whatsoever soul it be that shall not be afflicted in that same day, he shall be cut off from among his people. 23.30 And whatsoever soul it be that doeth any work in that same day, the same soul will I destroy from among his people. 23.31 Ye shall do no manner of work: it shall be a statute for ever throughout your generations in all your dwellings. 23.32 It shall be unto you a sabbath of rest, and ye shall afflict your souls: <b>in the ninth day of the month at even, from even unto even, shall ye celebrate your sabbath</b>.

Notice that this concerns the Day of Atonement, which is the <b>tenth day</b> of the month (23:27), but that the fast begins on evening of the <b>ninth</b> day of the month. (23:32). Those are <b>two adjacent days, with two different date numbers: the ninth and the tenth</b>. If the day really began in the evening, it would just be one date.  <b><em>I repeat, the fact that there are two different day numbers, the 9th and 10th, show that there are two distinct days.</em></b>  The meaning? The fast for the Day of Atonement begins on the evening of the 9th, but the actual Day of Atonement is on the 10th.

So that's all Leviticus 23 says about the start of the day. No "sunset to sunset" here.


Offline grannietwoshoes

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Re: The Seventh-day Adventist church endorses the Keeping of Sunday
« Reply #44 on: Fri Feb 10, 2012 - 18:55:04 »
hi,  i have many friends who are seventh day adventist. i do not claim to be adventist or any other organized religion. i only consider myself a christian and all other christians my brothers and sisters. but my studies of the bible show me that God says to honor the sabbath day and keep it Holy. Sunday is the first day of the week in all countries, so that would make saturday the seventh or sabbath.

Offline World Calendar

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Re: The Seventh-day Adventist church endorses the Keeping of Sunday
« Reply #45 on: Fri Feb 10, 2012 - 19:12:42 »
Yes, Sunday is the first day of the week on the Gregorian (Roman) calendar. But the Hebrews did not use that calendar, which did not even exist in the time of Moses, David, etc.

Often people observe that the word "Sabbath", or a variation, is used for the seventh day of the modern calendar in many languages. But these are modern languages which developed these words following the time of the Roman Empire and Constantine. Notice the Roman Catholic influence, for example, in Spanish:

Saturday = Sabado, Sunday = Domingo. Domingo means "Lord's Day", the Catholic day of worship, which is the first day of the week. Sabado reflects the Catholic idea of the Jewish Sabbath.

The Greek Σάββατο (Sábbato) is not ancient Greek. The key is seen when you notice the modern Greek word for "Sunday" is Κυριακή (Kyriake), which is the Catholic "Lord's day".

What is more revealing is that the ancient Greek word for "Saturday" is ημέρα Κρόνου (hēméra Krónou) which means "day of Kronos".  Kronos, is of couse, "Father Time", otherwise known as "Saturn".  "Saturday" is "Saturn's day".  The Sabbath is on a different calendar, which does not use a weekly cycle, so it does not coincide with any pagan day.

Even if the Roman Church knows that the original calendar was lunar, they have to fit their claims that the Resurrection occurred on Easter Sunday, the first day of the Gregorian week. They must call the seventh day of the Gregorian week the "Jewish Sabbath", in order to fit the Gospel chronology.   

Offline DaveW

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Re: The Seventh-day Adventist church endorses the Keeping of Sunday
« Reply #46 on: Mon Feb 13, 2012 - 05:41:05 »
WorldCalendar, you are ignoring 3000 years of history of keeping time and the sabbath, a system in place at least a thousand years BEFORE New Testament times and recorded in the Jewish writings of the day.  The day is calculated from sundown to sundown.  If Jesus had any interest in changing it (or Peter or Paul for that matter) they would have said so in the NT writings.  They did not so the sundown to sundown calculation stands.

Offline World Calendar

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Re: The Seventh-day Adventist church endorses the Keeping of Sunday
« Reply #47 on: Mon Feb 13, 2012 - 09:18:58 »
Dear Dave:

I have provided Scriptures detailing the issues of the start of the day in replies #38, #41, #43, and do not want to clutter this post with repetition.

I challenge you, and others, to read the entire Scriptures, or at least the Torah, from beginning to end without preconceived theories about what you think they do or should say.  Pay special attention to the first occurrences of a word or phrase, and see how they are used. 

I notice in another thread you wrote something that applies to calendation:

Quote
OK Beta - you claim you are only following the Lev 23 scripture in keeping the feasts. Fine. How do you decide what day to start counting the Omer?  Is it the day after the Sabbath (meaning the first day of Unleavened bread) or the first day after the Sabbath (meaning the regular Saturday Sabbath that occurs during the week of Unleavened bread)?


The reason such a dilemma exists today is because both the Rabbis and Karaites  (note 1) are using a mixed calendar – part Biblical/Lunar, and part Traditional/Pagan.  There would not be such a question in the mind of Moses, who based all the feasts, including the Creation Sabbath, upon the Lunar Calendar. In the Torah, there is no possibility of having a  "regular Saturday Sabbath ...  during the week of Unleavened bread."  There was only one Sabbath that week, on the 15th of the month.  See:  http://world-calendar.info/feasts.htm

The Ten Commandments, in two separate renderings, prove that the Sabbath of Unleavened Bread is the same as the Creation Sabbath:
*   The Fourth Commandment in Exodus 20 clearly references the seventh day Sabbath based on Creation.
*   The Fourth Commandment in Deuteronomy 5 clearly references the seventh day Sabbath based on the deliverance from Egypt, which occurred on the evening of the Sabbath of Unleavened Bread.

If  there could be a Sabbath in the middle of the week, just a few days from the Sabbath of Unleavened bread, then it would violate the command to "work six days".  (There is an exception to this, the Day of Atonement, and I can explain why at some other time.) 

In today's calendar, a New Moon can occur on a Saturday.  But that was impossible in the Torah, because the New Moon and the Sabbath were always two different days, with different ceremonial requirements. How was it that the moon could not be "new" on the Sabbath? Because the Sabbath was counted from the New Moon, occurring 7 days after it, on the 8th, 15th, 22nd, and 29th.

So without having a preconceived opinion that there is a "floating Saturday Sabbath", one would discover from reading the Torah alone that there is never any allowance or expectation that there would be a Sabbath on which would "clash" against the other Feasts days.  There are no "rules of postponement" in the Scriptures, and the fact that such things even exist is proof that the calendar being used does not agree with the Torah.

-------
Note 1: The Karaites have freed themselves from many of the traditions of the Rabbis, but not all.  It is a similar situation to most Protestants, who claim that they have separated from the Roman Church, yet hold some of their traditions and doctrines.

At the time of Yahushua, the Sadducees regulated the calendar and the Temple service, and they kept the original Lunar calendar.  They disputed with the Rabbis and Pharisees, who had picked up traditions from Babylon, including a false system of calendation.



Offline Gerhard Ebersöhn

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Re: The Seventh-day Adventist church endorses the Keeping of Sunday
« Reply #48 on: Fri Apr 27, 2012 - 20:05:00 »
You are the one who views this thread as negative.  I posted it as an example of progress for the Seventh-day Adventist church. 

If only the practice would spread.

GE:

Sarcasm is the wit of the cheapest of minds.

Offline Gerhard Ebersöhn

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Re: The Seventh-day Adventist church endorses the Keeping of Sunday
« Reply #49 on: Fri Apr 27, 2012 - 20:08:16 »
You are the one who views this thread as negative.  I posted it as an example of progress for the Seventh-day Adventist church. 

If only the practice would spread.
Its not a question of "progress."  The names of the days have changed.  They are still keeping the seventh day of the week.  It is the previous Sunday keepers who are now keeping the seventh day of the week.

GE:

Healthy, common sense! 

Offline Gerhard Ebersöhn

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Re: The Seventh-day Adventist church endorses the Keeping of Sunday
« Reply #50 on: Fri Apr 27, 2012 - 20:18:11 »
The Samoa and Tokelau Mission of the Australasian division of Seventh-day Adventists has voted to keep Sunday in place of Saturday on the Island of Samoa just as members of the Tonga Seventh-day Adventist church do on their Island.  This is in response to the decision of the Samoan Government to shift the International Date Line to agree with the times and days of Australia.

This Sunday time period is the same Sunday time period that the rest of Christendom utilizes for church attendance in North America and the rest of the world.

To be fair, these Seventh-day Adventists believe that they are maintaining a facsimile of the chronological 7 day week.  In reality, This shift returns the observance of days in Samoa to the sequence and position observed prior to the last shift of the IDL in 1892 so the new day of SDA Sabbath observance is really the original day kept as Sunday up until 120 years ago.
 
The Official Samoan and Tongan SDA's will never have to worry about violating the phantom Sunday laws predicted by the SDA church prophet, Ellen White.
 

http://www.samoanews.com/?q=content/seventh-day-adventists-samoa-will-have-two-sabbaths-dateline-change

http://www.cnn.com/2011/12/27/world/samoa-dateline/index.html

http://www.samoaobserver.ws/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=37444:church-issues-statement&catid=1:latest-news&Itemid=50





GE:

Your opening statement "endorses", one thing for certain, that your heading for your thread, "The Seventh-day Adventist church endorses the Keeping of Sunday", is a shameless, shameful LIE.

And I am telling you this in your face while I am not even a Seventh-day Adventist, myself.

But it is very good you did this : It exposed the weakness and character of both position and holder of the position.





Offline Gerhard Ebersöhn

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Re: The Seventh-day Adventist church endorses the Keeping of Sunday
« Reply #51 on: Fri Apr 27, 2012 - 20:31:45 »
I am not 'anti' SDA.  I am pro-Gospel!!!   ::tippinghat::

GE:

If you were "pro-Gospel" as you - falsely - claim, you would have had a word of consolation and encouragement for well-meaning, genuine, Christians, regardless trivialities like the shifting of the dateline in the most scarcely populated parts of the globe. But you have no word to the edification of the Body of Christ's Own : BECAUSE you don't know the Scriptures but adhere to the traditions of men.

Another Sunday-worshipping hypocrite we have here!


Offline Gerhard Ebersöhn

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Re: The Seventh-day Adventist church endorses the Keeping of Sunday
« Reply #52 on: Fri Apr 27, 2012 - 20:41:57 »

... At the time of Yahushua ....



GE:

What's "Yahushua"?!

Sounds like you have a cold.

Eat less sweets and abstain from milk and milk-products.

Alright, eat, I see you cannot yet take solid food.

Offline Gerhard Ebersöhn

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Re: The Seventh-day Adventist church endorses the Keeping of Sunday
« Reply #53 on: Fri Apr 27, 2012 - 20:58:45 »
This post shows that one cannot use the International Date Line in determining the Sabbath. In fact, the Sabbath does not use the modern Gregorian Calendar:  The calendar used by Moses in the Bible was based upon the phases of the Moon, not a continuous weekly cycle.

The Bible always uses the words "New Moon" and "Sabbath" together because <b>the Biblical calendar starts every month on New Moon Day, and the Sabbaths are always in the same place:</b> The 8th, 15th, 22nd, and 29th days. This is why the feast days in Leviticus 23 have a Sabbath on the 15th day.

Today's calendar comes <b>straight from Rome</b>, developed by Constantine and modified slightly by Pope Gregory. The reason most Jews (and SDAs) keep Saturday today is the same exact reason that most Christians keep Sunday - because of Constantine's calendar change, and the persecutions by which he enforced these changes. Neither Saturday nor Sunday is the Biblical Sabbath.

Note that the Prophet Isaiah foretells a time when the moon will once again schedule true worship: "And it shall come to pass, that <b>from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another</b>, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD (YHWH). (Isaiah 66:23)"   

http://world-calendar.info/neither/


GE:

And this, comes straight from your THUMB! ...

"The Bible always uses the words "New Moon" and "Sabbath" together because <b>the Biblical calendar starts every month on New Moon Day, and the Sabbaths are always in the same place:</b> The 8th, 15th, 22nd, and 29th days. This is why the feast days in Leviticus 23 have a Sabbath on the 15th day."



Offline Gerhard Ebersöhn

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Re: The Seventh-day Adventist church endorses the Keeping of Sunday
« Reply #54 on: Fri Apr 27, 2012 - 22:13:21 »

The first of the month is ALWAYS in conjunction with the New Moon (1 day after the total dark of the moon) and was determined by observation outside Jerusalem up to the Babylonian exile where the Jews came across Babylon's astronomers who had complex calculations for the phases of the moon and positions of the "wanderers." (planets)  

GE:


Incorrect:
"The first of the month is ALWAYS in conjunction with the New Moon"

Actually thefirst day of the _First_ Month ONLY,
"THOU" - the Israelites / man -
"MUST" – by God’s commandment - "PROCLAIM / DETERMINE / APPOINT / RECKON",
"IN THEIR SEASON" = according to / determined by / regulated through their YEARLY CYCLE.

The 30 days First Month and every of twelve 30 days months followed REGARDLESS ON WHICH DAY OF THE WEEK the first day of every month might have fallen.

The difference in the length of the year between the civil / religious calendar of 360 days and the solar-lunar-year would accumulate to one month of 30 days every 7 th year to bring about the 'sabbath-years', which again would bring about yet an extra month every 50 years, hence the jubilee-sabbath-years.

MEANWHILE THE WEEKLY OR SEVEN-DAYS-CYCLE OF THE CREATION-ORDER OR SEQUENCE CONTINUED unbroken, uninterrupted, intact 7 after 7 days ad infinitum ... JUST LIKE TODAY STILL.

Sometimes it might have occurred that the Thirteenth Month was observed as the Twelfth Month, Adar, OVERLAPPING the First Month, Abib / Nisan.
So in Esra 6:15 to 22 the dedication of the temple in the Twelfth Month and the passover in the First Month are --- for me --- inexplicably intermingled. What it does prove though, is the INDEPENDENT relationship between the dates on the monthly / yearly calendar and the weekly recurrence of the Sabbath Day.

I am of the opinion therefore the Samoans should not worry, but accept their new calendar  and move their observance of the Seventh Day Sabbath to the Seventh Day indicated on their solar calendar. That will bring them in pace with the rest of their brethren around the world under the sign of distinction of God Almighty’s choice, of who his People are and who those are who despise the Sabbath-sign of the God of his People, the Lord of the Sabbath Day. It is more important to be a co-sufferer with Christ than accept the conveniences the world has to offer even were it with regard to one’s keeping of the Sabbath of the LORD GOD.
« Last Edit: Fri Apr 27, 2012 - 22:23:05 by Gerhard Ebersöhn »

Offline current occupant

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Re: The Seventh-day Adventist church endorses the Keeping of Sunday
« Reply #55 on: Sat Apr 28, 2012 - 10:50:42 »
You are the one who views this thread as negative.  I posted it as an example of progress for the Seventh-day Adventist church. 

If only the practice would spread.

GE:

Sarcasm is the wit of the cheapest of minds.


on the other hand......  the cheapest minds find sarcasm where NONE exists.

Offline current occupant

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Re: The Seventh-day Adventist church endorses the Keeping of Sunday
« Reply #56 on: Sat Apr 28, 2012 - 10:58:24 »
The Samoa and Tokelau Mission of the Australasian division of Seventh-day Adventists has voted to keep Sunday in place of Saturday on the Island of Samoa just as members of the Tonga Seventh-day Adventist church do on their Island.  This is in response to the decision of the Samoan Government to shift the International Date Line to agree with the times and days of Australia.

This Sunday time period is the same Sunday time period that the rest of Christendom utilizes for church attendance in North America and the rest of the world.

To be fair, these Seventh-day Adventists believe that they are maintaining a facsimile of the chronological 7 day week.  In reality, This shift returns the observance of days in Samoa to the sequence and position observed prior to the last shift of the IDL in 1892 so the new day of SDA Sabbath observance is really the original day kept as Sunday up until 120 years ago.
 
The Official Samoan and Tongan SDA's will never have to worry about violating the phantom Sunday laws predicted by the SDA church prophet, Ellen White.
 

http://www.samoanews.com/?q=content/seventh-day-adventists-samoa-will-have-two-sabbaths-dateline-change

http://www.cnn.com/2011/12/27/world/samoa-dateline/index.html

http://www.samoaobserver.ws/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=37444:church-issues-statement&catid=1:latest-news&Itemid=50





GE:

Your opening statement "endorses", one thing for certain, that your heading for your thread, "The Seventh-day Adventist church endorses the Keeping of Sunday", is a shameless, shameful LIE.

And I am telling you this in your face while I am not even a Seventh-day Adventist, myself.

But it is very good you did this : It exposed the weakness and character of both position and holder of the position.







If what you say is true then why do the SDA administrators who fly around the world in the course of their work ALWAYS observe the sabbath according to the named 7th day of the week at the location where they are at the time and not according to the 7th day at the location of their residence.

The ad hom comments are noted as your inability to address the issue from an intellectual position.

Offline current occupant

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Re: The Seventh-day Adventist church endorses the Keeping of Sunday
« Reply #57 on: Sat Apr 28, 2012 - 11:04:42 »
I am not 'anti' SDA.  I am pro-Gospel!!!   ::tippinghat::

GE:

If you were "pro-Gospel" as you - falsely - claim, you would have had a word of consolation and encouragement for well-meaning, genuine, Christians, regardless trivialities like the shifting of the dateline in the most scarcely populated parts of the globe. But you have no word to the edification of the Body of Christ's Own : BECAUSE you don't know the Scriptures but adhere to the traditions of men.

Another Sunday-worshipping hypocrite we have here!



I don't worship sunday.  I don't worship any day.  I worship God.

From your posts I understand that you likely believe in keeping the Sabbath on saturday.  If you do, please tell us the correct way that the Bible teaches to 'keep the Sabbath'.


Where does your worshiping saturday/sunday/sabbath or any other day get you??

Where does worshiping ON saturday/sunday/sabbath or any other day get any one?

Offline World Calendar

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Re: The Seventh-day Adventist church endorses the Keeping of Sunday
« Reply #58 on: Sat Apr 28, 2012 - 21:37:15 »
Quote
>> What's "Yahushua"?! Sounds like you have a cold. <<


Yahushua is the Hebrew name of the Savior, written in English letters. The name "Jesus" as pronounced in English is not even close, although the Spanish pronounciation of "Jesus" is closer.  The Hebrew language has no "J" sound.

Offline Gerhard Ebersöhn

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Re: The Seventh-day Adventist church endorses the Keeping of Sunday
« Reply #59 on: Sun Apr 29, 2012 - 13:18:18 »
Quote
>> What's "Yahushua"?! Sounds like you have a cold. <<


Yahushua is the Hebrew name of the Savior, written in English letters. The name "Jesus" as pronounced in English is not even close, although the Spanish pronounciation of "Jesus" is closer.  The Hebrew language has no "J" sound.

GE:

Because of this, you 'have the Truth'. se alie.

Offline DaveW

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Re: The Seventh-day Adventist church endorses the Keeping of Sunday
« Reply #60 on: Mon May 07, 2012 - 10:46:29 »
A question (and I would love an answer from the Rabbinic community as well if I could find anyone to answer) concerning the sabbath.

We go from sundown to sundown, and 7 sundowns later we observe it again.

What happens if you are in orbit and the sun sets every 4 or 5 hours? (this is not being facietious)

Offline Gerhard Ebersöhn

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Re: The Seventh-day Adventist church endorses the Keeping of Sunday
« Reply #61 on: Fri May 18, 2012 - 16:57:54 »
A question (and I would love an answer from the Rabbinic community as well if I could find anyone to answer) concerning the sabbath.

We go from sundown to sundown, and 7 sundowns later we observe it again.

What happens if you are in orbit and the sun sets every 4 or 5 hours? (this is not being facietious)

GE:


GE:

You come back to earth no time lost or gained.

But don't worry, I don't think an SDA will ever go to space; they will get their turn for thousand years, I understand.
« Last Edit: Fri May 18, 2012 - 18:35:02 by Nevertheless »

 

     
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