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Author Topic: THE TRUTH ON THE SCAPEGOAT!!  (Read 16462 times)

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Offline djconklin

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Re: THE TRUTH ON THE SCAPEGOAT!!
« Reply #75 on: March 25, 2010, 09:43:26 AM »
Quote
Cleansing the sanctuary on that day was symbolic of being at one with God, APART FROM SIN
Too cryptic.  Your sins are already forgiven and you have atonement with God when the lamb was sacrificed for your sins.  So, what is the goat for the Lord being sacrificed for?  What is the scapegoat carrying out of the camp?  I'm still waiting for the CRITICS to answer these simple questions--and yet they say that the sanctuary teaching of the SDA is unbiblical--what does their church teach?

Quote
So if the Symbolic scapegoat is Jesus as some claim, that would mean Jesus would again suffer for the same sins that he already died for on the cross, also since the Scapegoat dies, this would mean Jesus would have to die again and have to be resurrected again.
You've got it!

A good resource: http://www.bethelnz.co.nz/sanctuary_page_1.htm
"Analyzing Alleged Plagiarism in Nineteenth-Century Literature: A Case Study of Ellen G. White’s The Desire of Ages," by David J. Conklin, Jerry Moon, and Kevin Morgan Plagiary 2008 3(5): 1-29.

That study compared 47 authors with each other.  I now have 225 in the study.  The critics have yet to do even two authors.  That would require work; it is much easier to tell a lie.
---
When they cannot and will not tell you the truth on the simple stuff, why should you trust them on the more complex?

"At the end of the day, the truth is the only thing we have." Horatio Caine, CSI: Miami

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Re: THE TRUTH ON THE SCAPEGOAT!!
« Reply #75 on: March 25, 2010, 09:43:26 AM »

Offline djconklin

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Re: THE TRUTH ON THE SCAPEGOAT!!
« Reply #76 on: March 25, 2010, 11:45:23 AM »
Quote
SHE SAYS THE ATONEMENT IS NOT YET FINISHED!!!

READ HER ACCOUNT BELLOW.

by Ellen G White.

"It was seen, also, that while the sin offering pointed to Christ as a sacrifice, and the high priest represented Christ as a mediator, the scapegoat typified Satan, the author of sin, upon whom the sins of the truly penitent will finally be placed. When the high priest, by virtue of the blood of the sin offering, removed the sins from the sanctuary, he placed them upon the scapegoat. When Christ, by virtue of His own blood, removes the sins of His people from the heavenly sanctuary at the close of His ministration, He will place them upon Satan, who, in the execution of the judgment, must bear the final penalty. The scapegoat was sent away into a land not inhabited, never to come again into the congregation of Israel. So will Satan be forever banished from the presence of God and His people, and he will be blotted from existence in the final destruction of sin and sinners." The Great Controversy, page 422.

"In like manner, when the work of atonement in the heavenly sanctuary has been completed, then in the presence of God and heavenly angels and the hosts of the redeemed the sins of God's people will be placed upon Satan; he will be declared guilty of all the evil which he has caused them to commit." The Great Controversy, page 658."

"Satan bore not only the weight and punishment of his own sins, but also of the sins of the redeemed host, which had been placed upon him." Early Writings, pp. 294, 295.

Note that the quote doesn't support the claim: "SHE SAYS THE ATONEMENT IS NOT YET FINISHED!!!"
"Analyzing Alleged Plagiarism in Nineteenth-Century Literature: A Case Study of Ellen G. White’s The Desire of Ages," by David J. Conklin, Jerry Moon, and Kevin Morgan Plagiary 2008 3(5): 1-29.

That study compared 47 authors with each other.  I now have 225 in the study.  The critics have yet to do even two authors.  That would require work; it is much easier to tell a lie.
---
When they cannot and will not tell you the truth on the simple stuff, why should you trust them on the more complex?

"At the end of the day, the truth is the only thing we have." Horatio Caine, CSI: Miami

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Re: THE TRUTH ON THE SCAPEGOAT!!
« Reply #76 on: March 25, 2010, 11:45:23 AM »

Offline robert two

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Re: THE TRUTH ON THE SCAPEGOAT!!
« Reply #77 on: March 25, 2010, 02:19:29 PM »
 Dj
you lost me there. I can See we are on the same side but
JESUS died once for my sins. But there is a need to complete the books and justify what is done in punishment.
Better to repent now than have to repent when it is too late.

People have no conscience to life now.

Offline djconklin

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Re: THE TRUTH ON THE SCAPEGOAT!!
« Reply #78 on: March 25, 2010, 06:36:10 PM »
Quote
JESUS died once for my sins. But there is a need to complete the books and justify what is done in punishment.
Right!
"Analyzing Alleged Plagiarism in Nineteenth-Century Literature: A Case Study of Ellen G. White’s The Desire of Ages," by David J. Conklin, Jerry Moon, and Kevin Morgan Plagiary 2008 3(5): 1-29.

That study compared 47 authors with each other.  I now have 225 in the study.  The critics have yet to do even two authors.  That would require work; it is much easier to tell a lie.
---
When they cannot and will not tell you the truth on the simple stuff, why should you trust them on the more complex?

"At the end of the day, the truth is the only thing we have." Horatio Caine, CSI: Miami

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Re: THE TRUTH ON THE SCAPEGOAT!!
« Reply #78 on: March 25, 2010, 06:36:10 PM »

Offline Michael G

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Re: THE TRUTH ON THE SCAPEGOAT!!
« Reply #79 on: March 25, 2010, 09:38:00 PM »
Quote
Cleansing the sanctuary on that day was symbolic of being at one with God, APART FROM SIN
Too cryptic.  Your sins are already forgiven and you have atonement with God when the lamb was sacrificed for your sins.  So, what is the goat for the Lord being sacrificed for?  What is the scapegoat carrying out of the camp?  I'm still waiting for the CRITICS to answer these simple questions--and yet they say that the sanctuary teaching of the SDA is unbiblical--what does their church teach?

Quote
So if the Symbolic scapegoat is Jesus as some claim, that would mean Jesus would again suffer for the same sins that he already died for on the cross, also since the Scapegoat dies, this would mean Jesus would have to die again and have to be resurrected again.
You've got it!

A good resource: http://www.bethelnz.co.nz/sanctuary_page_1.htm


Excellent site, 

Thank you

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Re: THE TRUTH ON THE SCAPEGOAT!!
« Reply #79 on: March 25, 2010, 09:38:00 PM »



daq

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Re: THE TRUTH ON THE SCAPEGOAT!!
« Reply #80 on: May 15, 2011, 10:24:31 AM »
I am not an "SDA" member so perhaps there is some other teaching concerning the following Scripture quotes. However, I read the entire six pages of this thread and find it perplexing that "Jesus Barabbas" was not addressed in any part of this discussion. After all, if the veil was torn in twain, ("IT IS FINISHED") then certainly Yeshua fulfilled the Atonement of the Holy of Holies as explained in Heb.9 (as others here have already stated). What remains then is "the temple of the tabernacle of the testimony" (Rev.15:5) which is the same as "the tabernacle of the congregation that remaineth among them in the midst of their uncleanness" (Lev.16:16). The saints are themselves the TEMPLE of the tabernacle of the testimony which is cleansed "each in his appointed time" (mow`ed).

Matthew 27:16-17 KJV
16. And they had then a notable prisoner, called Barabbas.
17. Therefore when they were gathered together, Pilate said unto them, Whom will ye that I release unto you? Barabbas, or Jesus which is called Christ?

Matthew 27:16-17 TUA (Greek Transliterated Unaccented Bible)
16. Eichon detote desmion episemon legomenon Iesoun {*} Barabban.
17. Sunegmenon oun auton eipen autois ho Pilatos, "Tina thelete apoluso humin, Iesoun {*} ton Barabban e Iesoun ton legomenon Christon?

Matthew 27:16-17
16. And they had a notable prisoner, called JESUS BARABBAS.
17. Therefore when they were gathered together, Pilate said unto them, Whom will ye that I release unto you? JESUS THAT IS BARABBAS or JESUS THAT IS HAVING BEEN CALLED THE CHRIST?
« Last Edit: May 21, 2011, 05:30:52 PM by daq »

daq

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Re: THE TRUTH ON THE SCAPEGOAT!!
« Reply #81 on: May 15, 2011, 10:59:52 AM »
Leviticus 16:17
17.  And there shall be no man in the tabernacle of the congregation when he goeth in to make an atonement in the holy place, until he come out, and have made an atonement for himself, and for his household, and for all the congregation of Israel.

Revelation 15:8
8.  And the temple was filled with smoke from the glory of the Theou, and from his power; and no man was able to enter into the temple, till the seven strokes of the seven messengers were fulfilled.

Revelation 16:17
17.  And the seventh poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying: IT IS DONE!






Proving that 14 Nisan is the true Day of Atonement:
Proving that Barabbas was the typological Scapegoat:
Proving that Yeshua the Christ is NOT the `Aza'zel-Scapegoat:

Re: Two Witnesses

« Reply #9 on: July 15, 2011, at 03:23:40 AM »

Re: The Temple Tax
« Reply #23 on: July 01, 2011, 11:12:30 AM »

The Scapegoat `Aza'zel
« on: July 27, 2011, 08:19:34 PM »

PS  ~  "Bar-Abbas" is Aramaic for "Son of the Father"

« Last Edit: July 30, 2011, 08:43:28 PM by daq »

Offline Universal Restoration

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Re: THE TRUTH ON THE SCAPEGOAT!!
« Reply #82 on: July 26, 2011, 01:54:50 PM »
Proving that 14 Nisan is the true Day of Atonement:
Proving that Barabbas was the typological Scapegoat:
Proving that Yeshua the Christ is NOT the `Aza'zel-Scapegoat:

Hi dag and all,  I'm afraid you haven't prove any of those points.  
#1  Nissan 14(1st month 14th day) is Passover and not the Day of Atonement which is on the 7th Month on the 10th day.  

#2 It is true that Christ is not Azazel but he was the second goat.   And scriptures says that the goat presented alive was FOR Azazel and was not Azazel itself.  Many christians has missed this due to bad translation.  

I am a SDA and have been praying and studying the IJ for 2 years.  A year ago, I came to understand what Dan has presented.  At first I had misunderstood the meaning of the scapegoat and thought that Jesus was Azazel, when according to the Masoretic Text, Jesus was the 2nd goat sent alive FOR Azazel(the scapegoat).  Jesus is not the scapegoat. There's actually 3 goats in Lev 16.    

This became clear to me when I checked the Hebrew literal translation of Lev 16:10.  Here is what I discovered.  
 
The Literal Hebrew translation of Lev 16:10
 
Before hand, let me explain in brief that there are two works of Christ to atone for the sins of the world.  
 
1. Justification : accomplish/symbolized by His death
2. Sanctification:  accomplish/symbolized by His ressurection and His work in us and His work in destroying the works of the Devil.
 
The death and resurection of Jesus depicts this two works.  This works was reveal in the TYPE with the 2 doves ritual(one dead, the other alive).(Lev 14)  The same is depicted in the TYPE with the 2 goats ritual(one dead, the other alive) (Lev. 16).
 
First of all you have to acknowledge that these two goats were both without blemish for the lot could of fell on either.  Right there one of these goats couldn't represent Lucifer, for he is filled with blemish.  Both of these animals were without blemish because both represented Christ and His two works to atone for the world.
 
Lev 16:10    "But the goat, on which the lot fell     [to be the] (for)  scapegoat,  shall be presented alive before the Lord,  to make an atonement with him,  and to let him go  [for a ]  (to)  scapegoat into the wilderness. "
 
Notice what I have put in bracket and highlight in red the inaccuracy of the translation. What is in parenthese and in green is what the litteral translation in the original text would say.  
 
Basically the translation error(& bias) is that the second goat was for   Azazel and not to be   Azazel.

Please go check the Masoretic text yourself at Scripture4All Link if you really want to be objective about this and know the truth about God's plan of salvation.  An another place to check the literal translation of the OT is in the Tanakh at this link: http://www.chabad.org/library/bible_cdo/aid/9917/jewish/Chapter-16.htm.
 
Below I have included in green the literal translation provided by Scripture4all software where I will supply the strong codes with it. In blue is the KJV.  In red is an emphasis on the correct translation.
  
Lev 16:10  "But the goat, on which the lot fell   over-him (5921) for-goat-of-departure    (5799) shall be presented alive before the Lord, to make an atonement with him and   to-send-away-of (7971) him   (853)  to-goat-of-departure (5799)   the-wilderness-ward (4057)"
 
As you can see above, the goat that the lot fell on was FOR the scapegoat.  It was not  the scapegoat itself.  And in the later half of the text, that goat (that the lot fell on) was sent away TO  the scapegoat in the wilderness.
 
Below is the Tanakh literal translation from the link above :

Lev 16:10 "And the he goat upon which the lot "For Azazel" came up, shall be placed while still alive, before the Lord, to [initiate] atonement upon it, and to send it away to Azazel, into the desert."Capitalization and quote from original text. Underline and higlighted in red is my emphasis.

#3. This was fufilled on the Day of Atonement when Jesus was baptised(=death of 1st goat for the Lord) and then the Holy Spirit(the fit man) led him(live 2nd goat) for Azazel in the wilderness.

Blessings!
 
« Last Edit: July 26, 2011, 07:42:14 PM by daisy »
Blessings!

daq

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Re: THE TRUTH ON THE SCAPEGOAT!!
« Reply #83 on: August 06, 2011, 06:43:33 AM »
Hi "daisy" ~ Universal Restoration
What an excellent first post with some very astute observations. Perhaps there is indeed a "third" goat, but if so, then that one is not physical but rather spirit, as in the "prince of the power of the air" who comes from the "shadows of the west" across the entire "Sanctuary" without touching the ground, (the Daniel 8 shaggy-satyr-sa`iyr).  ::smile::

Leviticus 16:10 KJV
10.  But the goat, on which the lot fell to be the scapegoat, shall be presented alive before the Lord, to make an atonement with him, and to let him go for a scapegoat into the wilderness.

Leviticus 16:10 ASV (American Standard)
10.  But the goat, on which the lot fell for Azazel, shall be set alive before JHVH, to make atonement for him, to send him away for Azazel into the wilderness

Leviticus 16:10 RSV (Revised Standard)
10.  but the goat on which the lot fell for Azazel shall be presented alive before the Lord to make atonement over it, that it may be sent away into the wilderness to Azazel.

Leviticus 16:10 TUA (Transliterated Unaccented)
10.  Whasa`iyr 'sher `alah `alayw hagowral la`za'zel ya`amad- chay lipney Yahweh lkaper `alayw lshalach 'otow la`za'zel hamidbarah.


la`za'zel  =  lamed + ha-`aza'zel  =  to/for the `aza'zel

In this we seem to agree:
Both the ASV and RSV recognize and translate `Aza'zel as a proper name.

However:
The he-goat is the shaggy-devil-satyr-sa`iyr prince of the power of the air.
He finds his way back into the Sanctuary from the "shadows" of the west.
With all of the sins upon his "mortally wounded" head …
Two horns like a lamb but speaks like the dragon …

Original Strong's Ref. #8163
Romanized  sa`iyr
Pronounced saw-eer'
or sa`ir {saw-eer'}; from HSN8175; shaggy; as noun, a he-goat; by analogy, a faun:
KJV--devil, goat, hairy, kid, rough, satyr.

Matthew 12:43-45 KJV
43.  When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest, and findeth none.
44.  Then he saith, I will return into my house from whence I came out; and when he is come, he findeth it empty, swept, and garnished.
45.  Then goeth he, and taketh with himself seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first. Even so shall it be also unto this wicked generation.


HOWLERS and desert nomads  ~  Hebrew tsiyiym

Isaiah 34:14 TUA
14.  Uwpagshuw tsiyiym 'et- 'iyiym.  Wsa`iyr `al- re`ehuw yiqra'.'Ak- sham hirgiy`ah liyliyt.  Uwmats'ah lah manowach.
14.  The desert-dweller-tsiyiym nomads shall meet with the wild 'iyiym-howlers of the island, and the shaggy-goat-devil-faun-satyr-sa`iyr shall cry to his counterpart-twin; Liyliyth also shall settle there, and find for herself a place of rest.


Original Strong's Ref. #338
Romanized  'iy
Pronounced ee
probably identical with HSN0337 (through the idea of a doleful sound); a howler (used only in the plural), i.e. any solitary wild creature;
KJV--wild beast of the islands.

Original Strong's Ref. #6728
Romanized  tsiyiy
Pronounced tsee-ee'
from the same as HSN6723; a desert-dweller, i.e. nomad or wild beast:
KJV--wild beast of the desert, that dwell in (inhabiting) the wilderness.

Daniel 8:21 TUA
21.  Whatsapiyr hasa`iyr melek Yawan.Whaqeren hagdowlah 'sher beyn- `eynayw, huw' hamelekhari'shown.

Daniel 8:21
21.  And the shaggy he-goat is the king of Grecia: and the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king.


This twin `Aza'zel is the one spoken of as the OLD MAN

Ephesians 4:17-27 KJV
17.  This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind,
18.  Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:
19.  Who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness.
20.  But ye have not so learned Christ;
21.  If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus:
22.  That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;
23.  And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;
24.  And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.
25.  Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbour: for we are members one of another.
26.  Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath:
27.  Neither give place to the devil.


Notice that lying leads into the statement: "neither give place to the devil" in the text above. The lying tongue is the false prophet spirit which returns, and when it returns it lies to the host from which  it was formerly expelled. The lies are flattery: telling the host what a mighty one he or she has become, (self righteous deception and strong delusion). Proverbs reveals that the lying tongue comes back and the second time it is spirit; a lying spirit BREATHING out lies; that "old man" nature, the `Aza'zel, returns with seven others more wicked than himself and finds the house from whence he came having been swept clean and at ease.

Proverbs 6:16-19
16.  These six things doth YHWH hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him:
17.  A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood,
18.  An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief,
19.  A false witness breathing out lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren.

Revelation 13:15
15.  And he had power to give breath-spirit (GSN#4151 pneuma) unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.


Shabbat Shalom!
In Yeshua!!
« Last Edit: August 07, 2011, 03:11:36 AM by daq »

daq

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Re: THE TRUTH ON THE SCAPEGOAT!!
« Reply #84 on: August 07, 2011, 03:36:17 AM »
The death and resurection of Jesus depicts this two works.  This works was reveal in the TYPE with the 2 doves ritual(one dead, the other alive).(Lev 14)  The same is depicted in the TYPE with the 2 goats ritual(one dead, the other alive) (Lev. 16).
 
First of all you have to acknowledge that these two goats were both without blemish for the lot could of fell on either.  Right there one of these goats couldn't represent Lucifer, for he is filled with blemish.  Both of these animals were without blemish because both represented Christ and His two works to atone for the world.


There was a thread explaining Leviticus 14 and its true meanings but unfortunately it was deleted. However, you do not appear to fully understand Levitcus 14 and its correlation to the "Two Sparrows sold for a Farthing" at the Temple in the time of Christ.

As for "Lucifer" (KJV) there is high probability that Heylel is `Aza'zel.
Heylel was "perfect" until iniquity was found in him …

Isaiah 14:12-14
12.  How art thou fallen from heaven, O Heylel, son of shachar-dawn! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
13.  For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of 'El: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, (HSN#4150 mow`ed) in the sides of the north:
14.  I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.


Heylel bright-star son of shachar-dawn  ~  the Howler

Original Strong's Ref. #1966
Romanized  heylel
Pronounced hay-lale'
from HSN1984 (in the sense of brightness); the morning-star:
KJV--lucifer (Editor: referring to the king of Babylon)

Original Strong's Ref. #3214
Romanized  ylel
Pronounced yel-ale'
from HSN3213; a howl:
KJV--howling.

Original Strong's Ref. #3213
Romanized  yalal
Pronounced yaw-lal'
a primitive root; to howl (with a wailing tone) or yell (with a boisterous one):
KJV--(make to) howl, be howling.

Original Strong's Ref. #1984
Romanized  halal
Pronounced haw-lal'
a primitive root; to be clear (orig. of sound, but usually of color); to shine; hence, to make a show, to boast; and thus to be (clamorously) foolish; to rave; causatively, to celebrate; also to stultify:
KJV--(make) boast (self), celebrate, commend, (deal, make), fool(-ish, -ly), glory, give [light], be (make, feign self) mad (against), give in marriage, [sing, be worthy of] praise, rage, renowned, shine.

Ezekiel 28:12-13
12.  Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, thus saith YHWH 'Adonay; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.
13.  In `Geden thou hast been, the garden of 'Elohiym; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the Beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.
14.  Thou art the anointed Cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of 'Elohiym; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
15.  Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.


Heylel the king of Tyrus is "the anointed Cherub" that covers …
The twin `Aza'zel is the "old man" sent away to the desert …
And the man-faced anthropos men are the Cherubim …


Re: Ephod and the Breastplate of Judgment

« Reply #5 on: February 06, 2011, 03:44:56 AM »

These "wandering stars" among us are the "twice dead" of Jude 1:12 …

::priest::  ::The B-I-B-L-E, yes that's th

Offline Universal Restoration

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Re: THE TRUTH ON THE SCAPEGOAT!!
« Reply #85 on: August 20, 2011, 12:02:53 PM »
Quote from: dag
Hi "daisy" ~ Universal Restoration
What an excellent first post with some very astute observations. Perhaps there is indeed a "third" goat, but if so, then that one is not physical but rather spirit, as in the "prince of the power of the air" who comes from the "shadows of the west" across the entire "Sanctuary" without touching the ground, (the Daniel 8 shaggy-satyr-sa`iyr).  ::smile::
 

Hi dag.  Tx for the kind reply.  Sorry for the delayed respond. 

Hmmm….making the third goat a spirit instead of physical ….seems to only muddy up the word of God. 

Quote from: dag
In this we seem to agree: Both the ASV and RSV recognize and translate `Aza'zel as a proper name.
 

Yes we do agree and I personally prefer to use Aza’zel as it is more descriptive.

Quote from: dag
However:
The he-goat is the shaggy-devil-satyr-sa`iyr prince of the power of the air.
He finds his way back into the Sanctuary from the "shadows" of the west.
With all of the sins upon his "mortally wounded" head …
Two horns like a lamb but speaks like the dragon …

Original Strong's Ref. #8163
Romanized  sa`iyr
Pronounced saw-eer'
or sa`ir {saw-eer'}; from HSN8175; shaggy; as noun, a he-goat; by analogy, a faun:
KJV--devil, goat, hairy, kid, rough, satyr.

Dag, your statement above is not honest and not biblical.  The primary meaning  of the Hebrew word sa’iyr is shaggy by which it was used as such twice to describe Esau hairyness in Gen 27. However it was often used as a he-goat. 

Out of the 59 times sa’iyr was used:
(a)51 times to describe the goat in the sacrificial service which all represented Jesus.   
…..  26 times : explicitly in conjunction with the word goat (’ez) which only meant in english « an hairy goat » which was used for the sin offering which all represented Jesus. 
……12 times: in conjunction with chatta'ath =  « sin offering » which was translated in english as « goat of sin offering »
…..3 times : alone with other words always implying by context that it was a reference to the hairy goat of the sin offering. 
…..7 times : as reference to alive goat in the sin offering service on the day of atonement(DOA) in Lev 16.
…..2 times : as reference to the two goats in the sin offering service on the DOA in Lev 16.

(b)8 times in miscellaneous application
…. 2 times : to describe the hairyness of Esau
…. 4 times : to describe just a literal hairy goat in Dn 8:21; Gn 37:31; Is 34:14; 13:21
…. 2 times : to describe worship of  devils in Lev 17:7; 2ch 11:15 

Conclusion : It is fair to say that sa’iyr was mostly used to mean plainly « hairy goat » that was used for the sin offering which represented Jesus.  There were only two references where this word was used for the worships of devils by which they could of offered hairy goats also for those sacrifices. 
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Offline Universal Restoration

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Re: THE TRUTH ON THE SCAPEGOAT!!
« Reply #86 on: August 20, 2011, 01:04:48 PM »
The death and resurection of Jesus depicts this two works.  This works was reveal in the TYPE with the 2 doves ritual(one dead, the other alive).(Lev 14)  The same is depicted in the TYPE with the 2 goats ritual(one dead, the other alive) (Lev. 16).
 
First of all you have to acknowledge that these two goats were both without blemish for the lot could of fell on either.  Right there one of these goats couldn't represent Lucifer, for he is filled with blemish.  Both of these animals were without blemish because both represented Christ and His two works to atone for the world.

There was a thread explaining Leviticus 14 and its true meanings but unfortunately it was deleted. However, you do not appear to fully understand Levitcus 14 and its correlation to the "Two Sparrows sold for a Farthing" at the Temple in the time of Christ.

With your reply that followed your statement above, you did not give me any relevance of the two sparrows of Lev 14 thus I'm not convince you understand it yourself.  If you desire, please open up a discussion in the Theology main branch about a Lev 14 study of the two sparrow sacrificial meaning so we may study verse by verse.   

I was looking for a search engine to see if the scapegoat in Lev 16 was discuss in the main Theology section for it is not only the SDAs that got this wrong.  Many other denomination have an incorrect understanding due to the english mis-translation of Lev 16 and pre-conceived understanding that started from the 3th century.

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daq

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Re: THE TRUTH ON THE SCAPEGOAT!!
« Reply #87 on: September 08, 2011, 03:05:51 AM »
Quote from: dag
Hi "daisy" ~ Universal Restoration
What an excellent first post with some very astute observations. Perhaps there is indeed a "third" goat, but if so, then that one is not physical but rather spirit, as in the "prince of the power of the air" who comes from the "shadows of the west" across the entire "Sanctuary" without touching the ground, (the Daniel 8 shaggy-satyr-sa`iyr).  ::smile::
 


Hi dag.  Tx for the kind reply.  Sorry for the delayed respond.  

Hmmm….making the third goat a spirit instead of physical ….seems to only muddy up the word of God.  

Quote from: dag
In this we seem to agree: Both the ASV and RSV recognize and translate `Aza'zel as a proper name.
 


Yes we do agree and I personally prefer to use Aza’zel as it is more descriptive.

Quote from: dag
However:
The he-goat is the shaggy-devil-satyr-sa`iyr prince of the power of the air.
He finds his way back into the Sanctuary from the "shadows" of the west.
With all of the sins upon his "mortally wounded" head …
Two horns like a lamb but speaks like the dragon …

Original Strong's Ref. #8163
Romanized  sa`iyr
Pronounced saw-eer'
or sa`ir {saw-eer'}; from HSN8175; shaggy; as noun, a he-goat; by analogy, a faun:
KJV--devil, goat, hairy, kid, rough, satyr.


Dag, your statement above is not honest and not biblical.  The primary meaning  of the Hebrew word sa’iyr is shaggy by which it was used as such twice to describe Esau hairyness in Gen 27. However it was often used as a he-goat.  

Out of the 59 times sa’iyr was used:
(a)51 times to describe the goat in the sacrificial service which all represented Jesus.  
…..  26 times : explicitly in conjunction with the word goat (’ez) which only meant in english « an hairy goat » which was used for the sin offering which all represented Jesus.  
……12 times: in conjunction with chatta'ath =  « sin offering » which was translated in english as « goat of sin offering »
…..3 times : alone with other words always implying by context that it was a reference to the hairy goat of the sin offering.  
…..7 times : as reference to alive goat in the sin offering service on the day of atonement(DOA) in Lev 16.
…..2 times : as reference to the two goats in the sin offering service on the DOA in Lev 16.

(b)8 times in miscellaneous application
…. 2 times : to describe the hairyness of Esau
…. 4 times : to describe just a literal hairy goat in Dn 8:21; Gn 37:31; Is 34:14; 13:21
…. 2 times : to describe worship of  devils in Lev 17:7; 2ch 11:15  

Conclusion : It is fair to say that sa’iyr was mostly used to mean plainly « hairy goat » that was used for the sin offering which represented Jesus.  There were only two references where this word was used for the worships of devils by which they could of offered hairy goats also for those sacrifices.  



Not being "honest or Biblical"?? I was not the one who suggested that there are three goats in the Leviticus 16 ceremonies, and rather qualified my own statement with "but if so" (which you also quoted in your response). You are the one stating that there are three goats when the Scripture only states that there are two goats used in Leviticus 16. Also the first place where "sa`iyr" is translated as "devil" is found adjoining the Yom Kippur, Day of Atonement, ceremonial commandments, (Lev.17:7 which you also referenced but ignored). It appears that you do not assign any importance to what is stated in Lev.17:7 even though it appears to be quite possibly a continuation of the passage from the previous chapter:

Leviticus 17:1-7 KJV
1.  And the Lord spake unto Moses, saying,
2.  Speak unto Aaron, and unto his sons, and unto all the children of Israel, and say unto them; This is the thing which the Lord hath commanded, saying,
3.  What man soever there be of the house of Israel, that killeth an ox, or lamb, or goat, in the camp, or that killeth it out of the camp,
4.  And bringeth it not unto the door of the tabernacle of the congregation, to offer an offering unto the Lord before the tabernacle of the Lord; blood shall be imputed unto that man; he hath shed blood; and that man shall be cut off from among his people:
5.  To the end that the children of Israel may bring their sacrifices, which they offer in the open field, even that they may bring them unto the Lord, unto the door of the tabernacle of the congregation, unto the priest, and offer them for peace offerings unto the Lord.
6.  And the priest shall sprinkle the blood upon the altar of the Lord at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation, and burn the fat for a sweet savour unto the Lord.
7.  And they shall no more offer their sacrifices unto devils, (HSN#8163 sa`iyr) after whom they have gone a whoring. This shall be a statute for ever unto them throughout their generations.


Perhaps you are not being honest with yourself about what Daniel 8 really says. The supernal meaning of "hair" in Scripture is SPIRIT-SOUL (the same word "sa`iyr" is used of Esau, as you also admit, yet the word obviously has more ominous connotations).

Genesis 27:11 KJV
11.  And Jacob said to Rebekah his mother, Behold, Esau my brother is a hairy (HSN#8163 sa`iyr) man, and I am a smooth man:


In Daniel 8:21 the messenger Gabriel gives two words in the interpretation of the vision which may both be translated as goat and therefore in the context of the passage the two words do not both mean the exact same thing. Thus the he-goat of Daniel 8 is "hairy" in the sense that it is the Esau kind of hairy, (again, supernal and SPIRIT in meaning) which is probably why the KJV uses "rough" instead of "hairy" in this context.

Daniel 8:21 KJV
21.  And the rough (HSN#8163 sa`iyr) goat (HSN#6842 tsaphiyr) is the king of Grecia: and the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king.


Original Strong's Ref. #8163
Romanized  sa`iyr
Pronounced saw-eer'
or sa`ir {saw-eer'}; from HSN8175; shaggy; as noun, a he-goat; by analogy, a faun:
KJV--devil, goat, hairy, kid, rough, satyr.

Original Strong's Ref. #6842
Romanized  tsaphiyr
Pronounced tsaw-feer'
from HSN6852; a male goat (as prancing):
KJV--(he) goat.

Daniel 8:21 TUA (Transliterated Unaccented)
21.  Whatsapiyr hasa`iyr melek Yawan. Whaqeren hagdowlah 'sher beyn- `eynayw, huw' hamelekhari'shown.
21.  "And the he-goat hairy-devil is king of Yavan. And the great horn which is between its eyes, he is the first king."


Leviticus 17:7 then sheds light on the following also because any "sacrifice" not presented at the door of "the tabernacle" (supernal in meaning) is accounted as a sacrifice unto devils:

Amos 5:25-26 KJV
25.  Have ye offered unto me sacrifices and offerings in the wilderness forty years, O house of Israel?
26.  But ye have borne the tabernacle of your Moloch and Chiun your images, the star of your god, which ye made to yourselves.

Acts 7:43 KJV
43.  Yea, ye took up the tabernacle of Moloch, and the star of your god Remphan, (Raifan-Raiphan) figures which ye made to worship them: and I will carry you away beyond Babylon.


The Star of Rephaim, (Rapha-Nphiliym) is not the six-pointed Star of David that so many of the modern anti-Torah and anti-Law disciples would have us to believe: It is rather the five pointed star of the sa`iyr-satyr-hairy-devil-goat:



Leviticus 17:7 KJV
7.  And they shall no more offer their sacrifices unto devils, after whom they have gone a whoring. This shall be a statute for ever unto them throughout their generations.

daq

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Re: THE TRUTH ON THE SCAPEGOAT!!
« Reply #88 on: September 08, 2011, 04:30:50 AM »
In addition you do realize that "hairy-sa`iyr" Esau is Edom correct?

Esau  =  Edom  =  Idumea

Genesis 36:1-8 KJV
1.  Now these are the generations of Esau, who is Edom (HSN#123 'Edom).
2.  Esau took his wives of the daughters of Canaan; Adah the daughter of Elon the Hittite, and Aholibamah the daughter of Anah the daughter of Zibeon the Hivite;
3.  And Bashemath Ishmael's daughter, sister of Nebajoth.
4.  And Adah bare to Esau Eliphaz; and Bashemath bare Reuel;
5.  And Aholibamah bare Jeush, and Jaalam, and Korah: these are the sons of Esau, which were born unto him in the land of Canaan.
6.  And Esau took his wives, and his sons, and his daughters, and all the persons of his house, and his cattle, and all his beasts, and all his substance, which he had got in the land of Canaan; and went into the country from the face of his brother Jacob.
7.  For their riches were more than that they might dwell together; and the land wherein they were strangers could not bear them because of their cattle.
8.  Thus dwelt Esau in mount Seir: Esau is Edom (HSN#123 'Edom).


Original Strong's Ref. #123
Romanized  'Edom
Pronounced ed-ome'
or (fully) 'Edowm {ed-ome'}; from HSN0122; red [see Gen.25v25]; Edom, the elder twin-brother of Jacob; hence the region (Idumaea) occupied by him:
KJV--Edom, Edomites, Idumea.

Isaiah 34:5-17
5.  For my sword shall be bathed in heaven: behold, it shall come down upon Idumea, (HSN#123 'Edom) and upon the people of my curse, to judgment.
6.  The sword of the Lord is filled with blood, it is made fat with fatness, and with the blood of lambs and goats, with the fat of the kidneys of rams: for the Lord hath a sacrifice in Bozrah, and a great slaughter in the land of Idumea (HSN#123 'Edom).
7.  And the unicorns shall come down with them, and the bullocks with the bulls; and their land shall be soaked with blood, and their dust made fat with fatness.
8.  For it is the day of the Lord's vengeance, and the year of recompences for the controversy of Zion.
9.  And the streams thereof shall be turned into pitch, and the dust thereof into brimstone, and the land thereof shall become burning pitch.
10.  It shall not be quenched night nor day; the smoke thereof shall go up for ever: from generation to generation it shall lie waste; none shall pass through it for ever and ever.
11.  But the cormorant and the bittern shall possess it; the owl also and the raven shall dwell in it: and he shall stretch out upon it the line of confusion, and the stones of emptiness.
12.  They shall call the nobles thereof to the kingdom, but none shall be there, and all her princes shall be nothing.
13.  And thorns shall come up in her palaces, nettles and brambles in the fortresses thereof: and it shall be an habitation of dragons, and a court for owls.
14.  The wild beasts (desert nomads) of the desert shall also meet with the wild beasts (screamers) of the island, and the satyr (HSN#8163 sa`iyr) shall cry to his counterpart; also there shall settle Liyliyth, and find for herself a place of rest.
15.  There shall the great owl make her nest, and lay, and hatch, and gather under her shadow: there shall the dayah-vultures also be gathered, every one with its mate.
16.  Seek ye out of the book of the Lord, and read: no one of these shall fail, none shall want its mate: for my mouth it hath commanded, and his Spirit it hath gathered them.
17.  And he hath cast the lot for them, and his hand hath divided it unto them by line: they shall possess it for ever, from generation to generation shall they dwell therein.

Offline Universal Restoration

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Re: THE TRUTH ON THE SCAPEGOAT!!
« Reply #89 on: September 10, 2011, 12:55:20 PM »

Not being "honest or Biblical"?? I was not the one who suggested that there are three goats in the Leviticus 16 ceremonies, and rather qualified my own statement with "but if so" (which you also quoted in your response). You are the one stating that there are three goats when the Scripture only states that there are two goats used in Leviticus 16.
 Dag, there's are many translation errors and the only way to eliminate those is to look at the manuscript which I have provided a link to the Tenakh and showed the error.  If you prefer to take the english mis-translation, you are in great company.  

Quote from: dag
Also the first place where "sa`iyr" is translated as "devil" is found adjoining the Yom Kippur, Day of Atonement, ceremonial commandments, (Lev.17:7 which you also referenced but ignored). It appears that you do not assign any importance to what is stated in Lev.17:7
 I did recognize that text but also brought to your attention the other overwhelming majority of other texts that define "sa'iyr" as the goat of the sin offering which represent Christ.  My attempt was to correct your grave lobsidedness that makes you only see and incorrectly defines "sa'iyr" as satan when in fact it was 51 times refered to Christ and potentially 2 times at the most refered directly to Satan.  

Scriptual Meaning of Hair
Quote from: dag
Perhaps you are not being honest with yourself about what Daniel 8 really says. The supernal meaning of "hair" in Scripture is SPIRIT-SOUL (the same word "sa`iyr" is used of Esau, as you also admit, yet the word obviously has more ominous connotations).

Genesis 27:11 KJV
11.  And Jacob said to Rebekah his mother, Behold, Esau my brother is a hairy (HSN#8163 sa`iyr) man, and I am a smooth man:


Dag, "hairy" as Esau was defined in Scripture means fleshy-Soul -->  Esau(very hairy) was a carnal man, whereas Jacob(lacking hair) was a spiritual man.  So "hair" represent "flesh" as living by the flesh which is opposite to living by the spirit or being spiritual.  

The Zadok priest in Ezekiel 44:17-19 where to put on garment of wool(sheep protein hair) when they were to minister to men outside the court, but when they ministered to God inside the court they needed to put on their linen garments.  Linen is made from plants; wool is a sheep hair protein. Rev. 19:8 says, "fine linen is the righteousness [i.e., ZADOK] of the saints."  Linen represents the spiritual body, even as wool represents the flesh, or physical body.  

After Jesus ressurection, He always appeared to His disciples in a body of "flesh and bones" (Luke 24:39). In fact, he spent considerable time in Luke 24 convincing the disciples that He was NOT A SPIRIT. He even ate with them to prove it.   Why? So to manifest to us the glorified body we are to be inherit when we will be changed in his image.  Like the Zadok, we will be able to "change clothes," and become either spiritual or physical at will.  

Ezekiel 44:19 makes it unlawful for a Zadok to minister to the people in the "outer court," with their linen garment(spiritual clothing).  They had to put on their woolies(flesh clothing) and for this reason Jesus did not appear to the disciples as a spirit and always in the "flesh and bones" according to the law.


Quote from: Dag
In Daniel 8:21 the messenger Gabriel gives two words in the interpretation of the vision which may both be translated as goat and therefore in the context of the passage the two words do not both mean the exact same thing. Thus the he-goat of Daniel 8 is "hairy" in the sense that it is the Esau kind of hairy, (again, supernal and SPIRIT in meaning) which is probably why the KJV uses "rough" instead of "hairy" in this context.

Daniel 8:21 KJV
21.  And the rough (HSN#8163 sa`iyr) goat (HSN#6842 tsaphiyr) is the king of Grecia: and the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king.


Original Strong's Ref. #8163
Romanized  sa`iyr
Pronounced saw-eer'
or sa`ir {saw-eer'}; from HSN8175; shaggy; as noun, a he-goat; by analogy, a faun:
KJV--devil, goat, hairy, kid, rough, satyr.

Original Strong's Ref. #6842
Romanized  tsaphiyr
Pronounced tsaw-feer'
from HSN6852; a male goat (as prancing):
KJV--(he) goat.

Daniel 8:21 TUA (Transliterated Unaccented)
21.  Whatsapiyr hasa`iyr melek Yawan. Whaqeren hagdowlah 'sher beyn- `eynayw, huw' hamelekhari'shown.
21.  "And the he-goat hairy-devil is king of Yavan. And the great horn which is between its eyes, he is the first king."

Dag I agreed that Dn 8:21 here says  the hairy goat or shaggy... it's the same.  However it does not say that it is the devil.  That's your addition to the scripture.  Nor does it say that it is "supernal and SPIRIT in meaning" like you say.  Again that is your addition to the scripture.  

Quote from: Dag
Leviticus 17:7 then sheds light on the following also because any "sacrifice" not presented at the door of "the tabernacle" (supernal in meaning) is accounted as a sacrifice unto devils:

I agree that any sacrifice not presented to the Lord is like a sacrifice given to the devils or false gods.  What I don't agree with you is your leap of association of these sacrifice as being supernatural or "spiritual" in meanings.

Quote from: Dag
Amos 5:25-26 KJV
25.  Have ye offered unto me sacrifices and offerings in the wilderness forty years, O house of Israel?
26.  But ye have borne the tabernacle of your Moloch and Chiun your images, the star of your god, which ye made to yourselves.

Acts 7:43 KJV
43.  Yea, ye took up the tabernacle of Moloch, and the star of your god Remphan, (Raifan-Raiphan) figures which ye made to worship them: and I will carry you away beyond Babylon.


The Star of Rephaim, (Rapha-Nphiliym) is not the six-pointed Star of David that so many of the modern anti-Torah and anti-Law disciples would have us to believe: It is rather the five pointed star of the sa`iyr-satyr-hairy-devil-goat:

No problem Dag and I'm familiar with the 5 pointed star being used by the massonic which has it's roots probably to the star of rephaim as you say.  I haven't studied this star, but I don't have a problem with what you say here.  And for sure the Israelites where worshipping Azazel  -- which the literal translation is "Azaz"=goat and "el"=god also known as "PAN" the half goat and half man god -- and also other gods like Molech and Baal Peor and etc...  

But what I have pointed out  as unbiblical is you have equated the word Sa'iyr (literally meaning "shaggy" or "hairy") with the word Azazel.  These words are two different words and one does not equate to the other one.    
« Last Edit: September 10, 2011, 03:50:07 PM by Universal Restoration »
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