Author Topic: The US Constitution and end-time prophecy  (Read 1154 times)

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Offline drewhemm

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The US Constitution and end-time prophecy
« on: Sun Dec 23, 2012 - 10:20:43 »
In the Adventist understanding of end-time prophecy, the United States plays a key role; we see it as the nation represented by the beast that comes out of the earth in Revelation 13 (other denominations have alternative interpretations - this is the one we use). One of the notable features of this beast is that it has two horns. We normally understand horns in prophecy to represent powers, e.g. of the State, where the horns have an activity of their own, within the context of the nation to which they pertain. But these horns appear to be merely descriptive of the animal to which they belong, no activity of any kind is attributed to them. They are not presented as identifiable entities.

Therefore, we believe these two horns represent two notable characteristics of the US - Protestantism and Republicanism - principles upon which the US was founded:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Protestantism_in_the_United_States
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republicanism_in_the_United_States

As a Protestant Republic, the US has a Constitution that guarantees freedom of religion and separation of Church and State:

Quote
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.


There exists here something of an apparent paradox with our eschatology, because we believe the United States will eventually join forces with the Catholic Church (which views the issue of separation of Church and State differently as do Protestants) and lead the world in restricting freedom of religion and enforcing a universal system of religion and worship. But such a thing is impossible while the First Amendment of the Constitution remains in place and is interpreted as it is today. So what do we believe will happen? Consider this quotation from Ellen White, one of our denomination's founders:

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When Protestantism shall stretch her hand across the gulf to grasp the hand of the Roman power, when she shall reach over the abyss to clasp hands with spiritualism, when, under the influence of this threefold union, our country shall repudiate every principle of its Constitution as a Protestant and republican government and shall make provision for the propagation of papal falsehoods and delusions, then we may know that the time has come for the marvelous working of Satan and that the end is near.


Regardless of what you might think about such an interpretation of Revelation 13, there is no denying that the Constitution has received a lot of flak recently and is under pressure. There are some who wish to add a new amendment enshrining marriage as an institution exclusively available to a man and a woman. Also, with the recent shootings in Newtown, CT, the Second Amendment is being reviewed and it is possible that we will see changes due to the public outcry over the legal possession of semi-automatic assault weapons. I read a news article in the Washington Post this weekend that quotes the NRA's chief executive Wayne LaPierre as saying the following:

Quote
“All that first-term lip service to gun owners is part of a massive Obama conspiracy to deceive voters,” LaPierre said at this year’s Conservative Political Action Conference. He accused the president of trying to hide his true intentions to “destroy the Second Amendment during his second term!”


Therefore, if the Second Amendment is under threat, what if anything could cause a similar danger to the First Amendment? After 9/11 and the following PATRIOT Act, a lot of people were discussing what they saw as their constitutional freedoms being restricted...

In short, the First Amendment would have to be abolished or be given a substantially different interpretation to the one it has now. While at the moment this may seem implausible(?), if such a thing were to happen, it would be a clear sign visible for all to see that prophecy is indeed unfolding in line with our expectations.

Offline TonkaTim

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Re: The US Constitution and end-time prophecy
« Reply #1 on: Sun Dec 23, 2012 - 11:32:24 »
Drew,
I'm not a 7th Day Adventist, nor am I very familiar with Ellen White or her writings or prophetic interpretations.

As far as the 1st Amendment of the Bill of Rights, it is already well under assault & has been. It is the crux of separation of Church & State. The establishment clause: the government of man has no authority over the Kingdom of God. The 401c3 places the State in authority over the Church & the Kingdom of God. It stifles dissent in the pulpit. Jesus, John the Baptist, all the prophets never backed away from controversy criticizing the "powers that be". It is a God-given right to speak out against corruption & injustice. It is a God-given obligation to proclaim the Gospel - the Great Commission. The Freedom of Speech is a pre-existing God-given right for these reasons. It is & has been under assault for decades. They way the 1st is now explained is clearly at odds with the way it clearly reads.

Now the courts use the 1st to uphold all that is profane & stifle all that is good. I also find irony in that you mention Protestant, on our Supreme Court, is there one?

Offline drewhemm

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Re: The US Constitution and end-time prophecy
« Reply #2 on: Sun Dec 23, 2012 - 11:38:45 »
I should add that according to logical reasoning, the First Amendment could not be abrogated while the Second Amendment still stands. Try taking away the people's First Amendment rights while they can still exercise their Second Amendment rights...

So for us, the current discussion over the validity of the Second Amendment is a natural requirement for the abolition of the First.

Quote

The Baltimore Sun, December 23 2012: Repeal the Second Amendment

The Second Amendment has become a part of our history and culture. It was based on the English Bill of Rights of 1689, a measure that itself grew out of conditions between Catholics and Protestants in England more than 300 years ago.

The measure was adopted into our Constitution more than 200 years ago. But today the Second Amendment is a historical anachronism and should be repealed.

We should no longer be the only industrialized country in the world that allows its citizens easy access to firearms. There are 300 million guns in the U.S.
« Last Edit: Sun Dec 23, 2012 - 11:45:02 by drewhemm »

Offline drewhemm

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Re: The US Constitution and end-time prophecy
« Reply #3 on: Sun Dec 23, 2012 - 11:43:44 »
Drew,
I'm not a 7th Day Adventist, nor am I very familiar with Ellen White or her writings or prophetic interpretations.

As far as the 1st Amendment of the Bill of Rights, it is already well under assault & has been. It is the crux of separation of Church & State. The establishment clause: the government of man has no authority over the Kingdom of God. The 401c3 places the State in authority over the Church & the Kingdom of God. It stifles dissent in the pulpit. Jesus, John the Baptist, all the prophets never backed away from controversy criticizing the "powers that be". It is a God-given right to speak out against corruption & injustice. It is a God-given obligation to proclaim the Gospel - the Great Commission. The Freedom of Speech is a pre-existing God-given right for these reasons. It is & has been under assault for decades. They way the 1st is now explained is clearly at odds with the way it clearly reads.

Now the courts use the 1st to uphold all that is profane & stifle all that is good. I also find irony in that you mention Protestant, on our Supreme Court, is there one?

I agree with you 100%. What we are seeing now is the intentional, planned repression of the Christian faith, designed to cause a public outcry and spawn an effort to repeal the First Amendment and 'restore' Christianity to its rightful place in society. It is interesting how nowadays many Protestants are subscribing to the Catholic position on Church and State, which is that the two have a moral obligation to work together.

Unfortunately, it is precisely this effort that will lead us into the events described in Revelation 13.

Offline TonkaTim

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Re: The US Constitution and end-time prophecy
« Reply #4 on: Sun Dec 23, 2012 - 11:47:07 »
I should add that according to logical reasoning, the First Amendment could not be abrogated while the Second Amendment still stands. Try taking away the people's First Amendment rights while they can still exercise their Second Amendment rights...

So for us, the current discussion over the validity of the Second Amendment is a natural requirement for the abolition of the First.

Quote

Repeal the Second Amendment

The Second Amendment has become a part of our history and culture. It was based on the English Bill of Rights of 1689, a measure that itself grew out of conditions between Catholics and Protestants in England more than 300 years ago.

The measure was adopted into our Constitution more than 200 years ago. But today the Second Amendment is a historical anachronism and should be repealed.

We should no longer be the only industrialized country in the world that allows its citizens easy access to firearms. There are 300 million guns in the U.S.



I agree, there is a definite organized effort. I believe it is satanic in origin.

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Re: The US Constitution and end-time prophecy
« Reply #4 on: Sun Dec 23, 2012 - 11:47:07 »



Offline drewhemm

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Re: The US Constitution and end-time prophecy
« Reply #5 on: Sun Dec 23, 2012 - 11:53:17 »
I agree, there is a definite organized effort. I believe it is satanic in origin.

Scripture tells us that Satan himself is indeed behind many of the current political and religious tensions in the world.

Ephesians 6:12

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For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

Revelation 12:9

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And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Revelation 13:1-2

Quote

And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.
And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.

Revelation 13:11-12

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And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.
And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.
« Last Edit: Sun Dec 23, 2012 - 11:59:39 by drewhemm »

Offline TonkaTim

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Re: The US Constitution and end-time prophecy
« Reply #6 on: Sun Dec 23, 2012 - 11:59:16 »
I agree, there is a definite organized effort. I believe it is satanic in origin.

Ephesians 6:12

Quote
For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

Revelation 12:9

Quote
And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Revelation 13:1-2

Quote

And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.
And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.

Revelation 13:11-12

Quote

And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.
And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.

Scripture tells us that Satan himself is indeed behind many of the current political and religious tensions in the world.



Scripture clearly says so, agreed. 

"that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world"


Offline DaveW

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Re: The US Constitution and end-time prophecy
« Reply #7 on: Sun Dec 23, 2012 - 12:42:54 »
Drew - I do not hold to your understanding of the beast. 

I see no role in the end times for the US in scripture at all.  Probably means that the entire country will no longer exist. Either we will be taken over by outside forces or the country will disintegrate into chaos like Somalia.

Offline drewhemm

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Re: The US Constitution and end-time prophecy
« Reply #8 on: Sun Dec 23, 2012 - 12:44:20 »
Interestingly, in the First Amendment there are two references to religion:

  • Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion
  • Congress shall make no law...prohibiting the free exercise thereof

I imagine some people think that abolishing this amendment would only remove the first of these tenets, i.e. the Federal Government could actually come out in support of a religion. The majority would of course prefer this to be Christianity. However, the abolishment of this amendment would have farther-reaching implications, that religions not sanctioned by the State would be banned. There is of course historical precedent for this, one only has to look as far back as the Spanish Inquisition or more recently the Franco dictatorship. In both these events, the practice of any religion not sanctioned by the State became in itself a crime.

Offline drewhemm

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Re: The US Constitution and end-time prophecy
« Reply #9 on: Sun Dec 23, 2012 - 12:52:46 »
Drew - I do not hold to your understanding of the beast. 

I see no role in the end times for the US in scripture at all.  Probably means that the entire country will no longer exist. Either we will be taken over by outside forces or the country will disintegrate into chaos like Somalia.

That is quite normal. I understand many denominations do not see the US in prophecy; from a purely logical perspective however, this would be rather strange. The US is the most powerful, influential nation on the planet. In Bible prophecy, the events connected with or related to God's people were always prophesied/recorded. Egypt (where God sent His people for 430 years), Babylon (destroyed Jerusalem and took many Israelites captive), Medo-Persia (gave permission to the Jews to restore and rebuild Jerusalem and the sanctuary), Greece (gave us the language of the New Testament) and Rome (influenced the birthplace of Christ).

In addition to its strategic and political pre-eminence, the US has also played a massive role in the promotion of Christianity and the protection of Protestantism. Perhaps a better question would be, how could the US not figure in end-time prophecy?

Offline DaveW

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Re: The US Constitution and end-time prophecy
« Reply #10 on: Sun Dec 23, 2012 - 12:56:20 »
Interestingly, in the First Amendment there are two references to religion:

  • Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion
  • Congress shall make no law...prohibiting the free exercise thereof
That part of the first amendment has already been completely trashed by our government - mostly thru court action.

In the 1970s the Supreme Court declared that atheism fit the legal definition of a religion; a belief system concerning a higher power and that it is unprovable. In this case it is a belief that there is no higher power.

And now the court system, by removing religious images and statements from government, are establishing atheism as the state religion.

Offline DaveW

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Re: The US Constitution and end-time prophecy
« Reply #11 on: Sun Dec 23, 2012 - 13:09:03 »
In addition to its strategic and political pre-eminence, the US has also played a massive role in the promotion of Christianity and the protection of Protestantism. Perhaps a better question would be, how could the US not figure in end-time prophecy?


2000 years ago Rome was the greatest power on earth.  Then the empire crumbled. Look at Italy today. It is bankrupt and changes governments as often as some people change their socks.

250 years ago Brittan was the greatest military power on earth. Then they were beaten by a bunch of rag-tag farmers and hunters and the USA was born. Brittan today is a mere shadow of her former glory.

The same will happen to the US.  While we have been THEEE world power for the last half of the 20th century, I believe God has removed his protection and we will fade into the sunset just like Rome and Brittan.

I suggest you look up "The Harbinger" by Rabbi J. Cahn.  He wrote it in a book form but gave the whole story to the MJAA general conference in 2005. That is on Youtube.

The Harbinger - Rabbi Cahn, Full Version Small | Large

Offline drewhemm

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Re: The US Constitution and end-time prophecy
« Reply #12 on: Sun Dec 23, 2012 - 13:36:50 »
2000 years ago Rome was the greatest power on earth.  Then the empire crumbled. Look at Italy today. It is bankrupt and changes governments as often as some people change their socks.

250 years ago Brittan was the greatest military power on earth. Then they were beaten by a bunch of rag-tag farmers and hunters and the USA was born. Brittan today is a mere shadow of her former glory.

Britain and Italy are of course implicitly included in the prophecy of Daniel 2:

Quote

41 And whereas thou sawest the feet and toes, part of potters' clay, and part of iron, the kingdom shall be divided; but there shall be in it of the strength of the iron, forasmuch as thou sawest the iron mixed with miry clay.
42 And as the toes of the feet were part of iron, and part of clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong, and partly broken.


I see no role in the end times for the US in scripture at all.  Probably means that the entire country will no longer exist. Either we will be taken over by outside forces or the country will disintegrate into chaos like Somalia.

The same will happen to the US.  While we have been THEEE world power for the last half of the 20th century, I believe God has removed his protection and we will fade into the sunset just like Rome and Brittan.

That sounds like a prediction, but based on what prophecy if you say the US has no role in end time Scripture? Also, how did you arrive at the idea that God gave protection to the US if it not using Scripture?

I suggest you look up "The Harbinger" by Rabbi J. Cahn.  He wrote it in a book form but gave the whole story to the MJAA general conference in 2005. That is on Youtube.

The Harbinger - Rabbi Cahn, Full Version


Thanks, I will check it out as I am curious as to how anyone could exclude the US from prophecy. I believe a major cause of that is a politically-correct refusal to accept the true identity of the first beast in Revelation 13. Without correctly identifying the first beast (which bears many similarities to the forth beast in Daniel 7), the rest of Revelation 13 is impossible to decipher.

Revelation 13:17 clearly talks about what we today call 'economic sanctions'. This is another very strong clue as to the identity of the second beast. What other nation in the world can immediately, at the touch of a button, impede my legal right to buy or sell, even though I am a legal resident of another country?

I think maybe we have differing opinions not only about the meaning of certain prophecies but also their timings. I believe we are very close to the end (months/years versus decades/centuries), there are only a few pieces of the puzzle left to fall into place and then no-one will be left in any doubt.

This is why we are apolitical; we do not take political positions, we are merely observers. The fulfilment of prophecy is a divine imperative that cannot be stopped or even delayed. Many people in the US 'know' that something is 'wrong', they sense the government is preparing to move against its own people, just as the founding fathers feared when they authored the First and Second Amendments. The problem is that the majority of Americans have no idea why things are going the way they are. Prophecy provides a clear answer to that question...
« Last Edit: Sun Dec 23, 2012 - 13:56:24 by drewhemm »

Offline drewhemm

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Re: The US Constitution and end-time prophecy
« Reply #13 on: Sun Dec 23, 2012 - 13:40:59 »
Revelation 13:17 clearly talks about what we today call 'economic sanctions'. This is another very strong clue as to the identity of the second beast. What other nation in the world can immediately, at the touch of a button, impede my legal right to buy or sell, even though I am a legal resident of another country?


Perhaps more importantly, what other nation in the world has recently assumed the right to extra-judicially execute people, irrespective of their nationality or the country in which they live?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extrajudicial_killing#United_States

http://www.aclu.org/blog/tag/anwar-al-awlaki

Quote
Anwar Al-Awlaki (a.k.a. Anwar Al-Aulaqi) was an American-born Muslim cleric who was killed by U.S. forces in a targeted drone strike. Al-Awlaki was never charged of a crime. In 2010, the ACLU and the Center for Constitutional Rights brought a lawsuit on behalf of Al-Awlaki's father, challenging the government's asserted authority to carry out "targeted killings" of U.S. citizens located far from any armed conflict zone. We argued that such killings violate the Constitution and international law. The case was dismissed in federal district court in December 2011.
« Last Edit: Sun Dec 23, 2012 - 13:55:25 by drewhemm »

Offline DaveW

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Re: The US Constitution and end-time prophecy
« Reply #14 on: Sun Dec 23, 2012 - 14:23:11 »
The same will happen to the US.  While we have been THEEE world power for the last half of the 20th century, I believe God has removed his protection and we will fade into the sunset just like Rome and Brittan.
That sounds like a prediction, but based on what prophecy if you say the US has no role in end time Scripture? Also, how did you arrive at the idea that God gave protection to the US if it not using Scripture?

Easy.  That is because there is no scripture describing the end that says anything about anyone in the entire western hemisphere.  If we are not included, SOMETHING must be about to happen to take us out of the picture.

Offline drewhemm

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Re: The US Constitution and end-time prophecy
« Reply #15 on: Sun Dec 23, 2012 - 15:00:22 »
Easy.  That is because there is no scripture describing the end that says anything about anyone in the entire western hemisphere.  If we are not included, SOMETHING must be about to happen to take us out of the picture.
That's quite an assumption. Using that model, what should we say about Australia or China or any other major country not explicitly mentioned in Scripture? Should we assume that they will disappear simply because they are not mentioned?

I've watched that Harbinger video, and I heard this:

Quote

There are only two nations in history in world history, founded and dedicated from their inception upon God, they are Israel and America. I was just there in Jamestown, the first foundation of American civilisation, and I saw the plaque with its charter warning America to follow God or be removed.

America, like ancient Israel was called to be a light to the nations. It was founded as new Israel. And like ancient Israel, we would be blessed if we followed God but if we did not, we would be removed. The standard is higher because to whom much is given, much is required. There is accountability more profound and the judgement is more severe. America, like ancient Israel has largely departed from God...

He admits that America has a direct relationship with God's people, but you say its end is not foretold in Scripture? That would be inconsistent with all the other empires or nations that have interacted with God's people - Egpyt, Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece and Rome. The ends of all of them were prophesied.

Apart from that, he could almost be a Seventh-day Adventist. He foretells the fall of the US due to apostasy, but does not join the dots to uncover the source of its apostasy. One needs to lay the axe at the root of the tree - Luke 3:9. Check out this, another quote from Ellen White from back in 1888:

Quote
When our nation, in its legislative councils, shall enact laws to bind the consciences of men in regard to their religious privileges, enforcing Sunday observance, and bringing oppressive power to bear against those who keep the seventh-day Sabbath, the law of God will, to all intents and purposes, be made void in our land, and national apostasy will be followed by national ruin

Same conclusion - national ruin, but we recognise what will actually cause the apostasy.

Now, as he doesn't specify explicitly what the nation could do to restore itself (he generalises about the preaching of the gospel), he leaves the door open to take his message in another direction in the future. He could quite easily join the growing chorus of those who say the US needs to establish the Ten Commandments in its legal system, including the keeping of a sabbath - but guess which day it would be on? I hope for his sake and for those who listen to him that when the time comes, he takes a stand for the truth instead of joining with the majority. He talks of a revival, but is he talking about the true revival of the latter rain, or the false one? Check this out:

Quote
Before the final visitation of God’s judgments upon the earth there will be among the people of the Lord such a revival of primitive godliness as has not been witnessed since apostolic times. The Spirit and power of God will be poured out upon His children. At that time many will separate themselves from those churches in which the love of this world has supplanted love for God and His word. Many, both of ministers and people, will gladly accept those great truths which God has caused to be proclaimed at this time to prepare a people for the Lord’s second coming. The enemy of souls desires to hinder this work; and before the time for such a movement shall come, he will endeavor to prevent it by introducing a counterfeit. In those churches which he can bring under his deceptive power he will make it appear that God’s special blessing is poured out; there will be manifest what is thought to be great religious interest. Multitudes will exult that God is working marvelously for them, when the work is that of another spirit. Under a religious guise, Satan will seek to extend his influence over the Christian world.

Our interpretation is more detailed, more specific, more consistent scripturally and is backed up by historical precedent. It shows the birth of America and explains it's fall. Protestant America - when it joins forces with Catholicism - will become the false prophet in Revelation. Notice how these three work in harmony: the first beast of Revelation 13, the second beast (aka the false prophet in Revelation 16:13) and the dragon/devil (Revelation 20:10). Different symbols, same three entities.
« Last Edit: Sun Dec 23, 2012 - 16:59:08 by drewhemm »

Offline drewhemm

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Re: The US Constitution and end-time prophecy
« Reply #16 on: Sun Dec 23, 2012 - 16:30:40 »
There exists here something of an apparent paradox with our eschatology, because we believe the United States will eventually join forces with the Catholic Church (which views the issue of separation of Church and State differently as do Protestants) and lead the world in restricting freedom of religion and enforcing a universal system of religion and worship. But such a thing is impossible while the First Amendment of the Constitution remains in place and is interpreted as it is today.


I was looking for some decent material to support my statement about about the Catholic view of Church and State and found this in the New Advent Catholic Encyclopedia:

Quote

Mutual corporate relation of Church and state

The State, furthermore, is bound to render due worship to God, as follows from the same argument from the natural law which proves man's obligation to external worship, namely, that man must acknowledge his dependence upon God and his subjection to Him in every capacity in which he is so dependent, and therefore not only in his private capacity as an individual but also in that public, corporate capacity whereby he and his fellow citizens constitute the State. Due worship, in the present economy, is that of the religion of Christ, entrusted to the care of the Church.

There being, then, an obligation upon the State as such, arising out of the Natural and the Divine Positive Law, to render public Divine worship in accordance with the guidance of the Church, in whose charge Christ has placed the worship due in the present order of things, an obligation also to protect the Church and to promote her interests, the Church clearly has a perfect right to demand the fulfilment of these duties, since their neglect would infringe her right to the benefit proceeding from the fulfilment. To have the further right to command the State in their regard implies that the Church has a right to impose the obligations of her authority in their regard, to exact them authoritatively from the State.

Union of Church and state

That in States whose personality is constitutionally made up of every complexion of religious faith, much of it in its diversity sincere, there should be a governmental abstention from any specific denominational worship or profession of belief, and a general protection and encouragement of the individual in the practice of religion according to his own religious principles within the limits of the Natural Law, or of a general acceptance of Christianity, seems a practical necessity of evil times, when unity of faith is so widely lacking, and a modus vivendi which, if sincerely carried out, seems to work as little harm to objective right as can be expected in a condition of consciences sincerely differing in the matter of right established by the Divine Positive Law.


The punctuation in that last paragraph is horrible and commas are used where hyphens and parenthesis would make for better reading, but in summary they are saying that in a country such as the US, the fact that the State does not participate in religion (and that the individual has legal protections allowing him or her to worship according to their conscience) is considered a "practical necessity of evil times". This means the Catholic ideal is that the State does indeed establish a denomination, a form of worship and a profession of belief.

And that is why the First Amendment has to go...

Offline drewhemm

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Re: The US Constitution and end-time prophecy
« Reply #17 on: Mon Dec 24, 2012 - 05:34:11 »
I think maybe we have differing opinions not only about the meaning of certain prophecies but also their timings. I believe we are very close to the end (months/years versus decades/centuries), there are only a few pieces of the puzzle left to fall into place and then no-one will be left in any doubt.


Just received the following news article:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2252122/Virgin-Mary-sightings-Are-Bosnians-hoaxers-living-saints.html

From which I quote:

Quote
Yet as Christmas approaches, it seems increasingly certain that Medjugorje and its millions of believers are to get an unexpected present. A Papal Commission is getting ready to do something the Church has refused for more than three decades – and announce, finally, that the visions are authentic. At a stroke, the most controversial shrine in the Western world will become ‘official’. It is in its own way a miracle.


If this happens, Medjugorje is going to start making major news. Can you imagine what would happen if the Virgin Mary started sending 'messages' to governments and they officially recognise that she is communicating with them, and that she tells them what they must do to avoid the disaster you and Rabbi Jonathan Cahn refer to? Funny, that's exactly what we believe will happen:

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When Protestantism shall stretch her hand across the gulf to grasp the hand of the Roman power, when she shall reach over the abyss to clasp hands with spiritualism, when, under the influence of this threefold union, our country shall repudiate every principle of its Constitution as a Protestant and republican government and shall make provision for the propagation of papal falsehoods and delusions, then we may know that the time has come for the marvelous working of Satan and that the end is near.


Now do you see why I say we have months/years instead of decades/centuries?

Offline Everhope

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Re: The US Constitution and end-time prophecy
« Reply #18 on: Mon Dec 24, 2012 - 05:41:44 »
I think maybe we have differing opinions not only about the meaning of certain prophecies but also their timings. I believe we are very close to the end (months/years versus decades/centuries), there are only a few pieces of the puzzle left to fall into place and then no-one will be left in any doubt.


Just received the following news article:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2252122/Virgin-Mary-sightings-Are-Bosnians-hoaxers-living-saints.html

From which I quote:

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Yet as Christmas approaches, it seems increasingly certain that Medjugorje and its millions of believers are to get an unexpected present. A Papal Commission is getting ready to do something the Church has refused for more than three decades – and announce, finally, that the visions are authentic. At a stroke, the most controversial shrine in the Western world will become ‘official’. It is in its own way a miracle.


If this happens, Medjugorje is going to start making major news. Can you imagine what would happen if the Virgin Mary started sending 'messages' to governments and they officially recognise that she is communicating with them, and that she tells them what they must do to avoid the disaster you and Rabbi Jonathan Cahn refer to? Funny, that's exactly what we believe will happen:

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When Protestantism shall stretch her hand across the gulf to grasp the hand of the Roman power, when she shall reach over the abyss to clasp hands with spiritualism, when, under the influence of this threefold union, our country shall repudiate every principle of its Constitution as a Protestant and republican government and shall make provision for the propagation of papal falsehoods and delusions, then we may know that the time has come for the marvelous working of Satan and that the end is near.


Now do you see why I say we have months/years instead of decades/centuries?


Amen! Come Lord Jesus.

Offline DaveW

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Re: The US Constitution and end-time prophecy
« Reply #19 on: Mon Dec 24, 2012 - 14:21:47 »
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Using that model, what should we say about Australia or China or any other major country not explicitly mentioned in Scripture? Should we assume that they will disappear simply because they are not mentioned?

Australia is not a world player by any stretch.  And China IS mentioned in scripture, that God will recall the Jews out of there in the end.

Isa 49:10  "They will not hunger or thirst, Nor will the scorching heat or sun strike them down; For He who has compassion on them will lead them And will guide them to springs of water.
Isa 49:11  "I will make all My mountains a road, And My highways will be raised up.
Isa 49:12  "Behold, these will come from afar; And lo, these will come from the north and from the west, And these from the land of Sinim." [China]

That is an ancient name the Chinese called themselves. Are you old enough to remember the news stories in the 1960s about "Sino-Soviet relations?"  China and Russia had a series of border wars back then.

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Now, as he doesn't specify explicitly what the nation could do to restore itself (he generalizes about the preaching of the gospel), he leaves the door open to take his message in another direction in the future. He could quite easily join the growing chorus of those who say the US needs to establish the Ten Commandments in its legal system, including the keeping of a sabbath - but guess which day it would be on? I hope for his sake and for those who listen to him that when the time comes, he takes a stand for the truth instead of joining with the majority.
He is a Messianic JEW.  He would NOT opt for Sunday. Saturday is understood as an obligation for Jewish believers.

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Apart from that, he could almost be a Seventh-day Adventist. He foretells the fall of the US due to apostasy, but does not join the dots to uncover the source of its apostasy. One needs to lay the axe at the root of the tree - Luke 3:9. Check out this, another quote from Ellen White from back in 1888:

Like I have said before, I do not believe White's revelation to be patently false; just incomplete and mishandled.  Incomplete in the sense that it lacked the understanding of the ongoing unique place of Israel and mishandled in that it was applied uniformly to gentiles as well.

Offline drewhemm

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Re: The US Constitution and end-time prophecy
« Reply #20 on: Tue Dec 25, 2012 - 06:39:13 »
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Using that model, what should we say about Australia or China or any other major country not explicitly mentioned in Scripture? Should we assume that they will disappear simply because they are not mentioned?


Australia is not a world player by any stretch.  And China IS mentioned in scripture, that God will recall the Jews out of there in the end.

Isa 49:10  "They will not hunger or thirst, Nor will the scorching heat or sun strike them down; For He who has compassion on them will lead them And will guide them to springs of water.
Isa 49:11  "I will make all My mountains a road, And My highways will be raised up.
Isa 49:12  "Behold, these will come from afar; And lo, these will come from the north and from the west, And these from the land of Sinim." [China]

That is an ancient name the Chinese called themselves. Are you old enough to remember the news stories in the 1960s about "Sino-Soviet relations?"  China and Russia had a series of border wars back then.

Yes, I am familiar with the usage of the term sino as meaning Chinese. However to read Sinim as referring to China is somewhat dubious. Most commentaries say it is an option, but it is the most unlikely of the meanings. This is Easton's Bible Dictionary:

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(Isa. 49:12), supposed by some to mean China, but more probably Phoenicia (Gen. 10:17) is intended.

I hope you're not building any major parts of your end-time understanding on that one verse?

He is a Messianic JEW.  He would NOT opt for Sunday.

You'd be surprised what one will do/profess when they want to eat...

I refer again to Medjugorje, I just found this on their official website:

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The Ten Commandments are valid, establish the standard

The expressions are different, but the author was and is the same: Throughout the years many of the Virgin Mary’s messages from Medjugorje have been reminders and warnings of not only the existence of Satan, but more particularly that the enemy of God and mankind alike is unusually strong in this our time.

Also one of these warnings, the following message is central for another reason, too: It establishes The Ten Commandments as the standard to stick to for anyone who wants to take The Blessed Virgin’s hand on the path of conversion. Measuring ones own behavior and actions in the light of the Commandments is vital for remaining and growing on that path. But there will always be opposition:

“Satan wishes to destroy everything which I and my Son, Jesus, are building up. In a special way he wishes to destroy your souls. He wishes to guide you as far away from Christian life as possible as well as from the Commandments, to which the Church is calling you so you may live them. Satan wishes to destroy everything which is holy in you and around you”. (September 25th 1992)

Quite a bit can be concluded from this message:

(1) Jesus and the Virgin Mary are building up a lot in our time – in Medjugorje alone about 1,5 million pilgrims are expected in 2011 -  because the Virgin says that Satan wants to destroy “everything that she and her Son are building up”. This is so because the apparitions in Medjugorje will end Satan’s tightened grip on humanity and launch an era of peace.

(2) An authentic Christian life including a respectful observance of The Ten Commandments is paramount for being with Jesus and the Virgin Mary in their raging battle with Satan, as these two were singled out as Satan’s primary targets. Finally and not least notably:

(3) Living an authentic Christian life in respect for the Commandments makes holy.


This 100% confirms what I am saying, that the visions of Mary are being used to support adherence to the Ten Commandments - but they are talking about the modified version. The seventh-day Sabbath does not feature in their version...

Offline drewhemm

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Re: The US Constitution and end-time prophecy
« Reply #21 on: Tue Dec 25, 2012 - 12:24:50 »
Yet another murderer, inspired by Satan to add fuel to the anti-Second Amendment debate:

http://edition.cnn.com/2012/12/24/justice/new-york-firefighters-shooter/

I think we should start a countdown to when the Second Amendment is repealed...

Offline Hobie

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Re: The US Constitution and end-time prophecy
« Reply #22 on: Sat Jan 19, 2019 - 17:00:08 »
In the Adventist understanding of end-time prophecy, the United States plays a key role; we see it as the nation represented by the beast that comes out of the earth in Revelation 13 (other denominations have alternative interpretations - this is the one we use). One of the notable features of this beast is that it has two horns. We normally understand horns in prophecy to represent powers, e.g. of the State, where the horns have an activity of their own, within the context of the nation to which they pertain. But these horns appear to be merely descriptive of the animal to which they belong, no activity of any kind is attributed to them. They are not presented as identifiable entities.

Therefore, we believe these two horns represent two notable characteristics of the US - Protestantism and Republicanism - principles upon which the US was founded:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Protestantism_in_the_United_States
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republicanism_in_the_United_States

As a Protestant Republic, the US has a Constitution that guarantees freedom of religion and separation of Church and State:

There exists here something of an apparent paradox with our eschatology, because we believe the United States will eventually join forces with the Catholic Church (which views the issue of separation of Church and State differently as do Protestants) and lead the world in restricting freedom of religion and enforcing a universal system of religion and worship. But such a thing is impossible while the First Amendment of the Constitution remains in place and is interpreted as it is today. So what do we believe will happen? Consider this quotation from Ellen White, one of our denomination's founders:

Regardless of what you might think about such an interpretation of Revelation 13, there is no denying that the Constitution has received a lot of flak recently and is under pressure. There are some who wish to add a new amendment enshrining marriage as an institution exclusively available to a man and a woman. Also, with the recent shootings in Newtown, CT, the Second Amendment is being reviewed and it is possible that we will see changes due to the public outcry over the legal possession of semi-automatic assault weapons. I read a news article in the Washington Post this weekend that quotes the NRA's chief executive Wayne LaPierre as saying the following:

Therefore, if the Second Amendment is under threat, what if anything could cause a similar danger to the First Amendment? After 9/11 and the following PATRIOT Act, a lot of people were discussing what they saw as their constitutional freedoms being restricted...

In short, the First Amendment would have to be abolished or be given a substantially different interpretation to the one it has now. While at the moment this may seem implausible(?), if such a thing were to happen, it would be a clear sign visible for all to see that prophecy is indeed unfolding in line with our expectations.


With the election of Trump, anything is possible as we can see.

Offline Hobie

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Re: The US Constitution and end-time prophecy
« Reply #23 on: Sat Jan 23, 2021 - 11:52:50 »
In the Adventist understanding of end-time prophecy, the United States plays a key role; we see it as the nation represented by the beast that comes out of the earth in Revelation 13 (other denominations have alternative interpretations - this is the one we use). One of the notable features of this beast is that it has two horns. We normally understand horns in prophecy to represent powers, e.g. of the State, where the horns have an activity of their own, within the context of the nation to which they pertain. But these horns appear to be merely descriptive of the animal to which they belong, no activity of any kind is attributed to them. They are not presented as identifiable entities.

Therefore, we believe these two horns represent two notable characteristics of the US - Protestantism and Republicanism - principles upon which the US was founded:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Protestantism_in_the_United_States
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republicanism_in_the_United_States

As a Protestant Republic, the US has a Constitution that guarantees freedom of religion and separation of Church and State:

There exists here something of an apparent paradox with our eschatology, because we believe the United States will eventually join forces with the Catholic Church (which views the issue of separation of Church and State differently as do Protestants) and lead the world in restricting freedom of religion and enforcing a universal system of religion and worship. But such a thing is impossible while the First Amendment of the Constitution remains in place and is interpreted as it is today. So what do we believe will happen? Consider this quotation from Ellen White, one of our denomination's founders:

Regardless of what you might think about such an interpretation of Revelation 13, there is no denying that the Constitution has received a lot of flak recently and is under pressure. There are some who wish to add a new amendment enshrining marriage as an institution exclusively available to a man and a woman. Also, with the recent shootings in Newtown, CT, the Second Amendment is being reviewed and it is possible that we will see changes due to the public outcry over the legal possession of semi-automatic assault weapons. I read a news article in the Washington Post this weekend that quotes the NRA's chief executive Wayne LaPierre as saying the following:

Therefore, if the Second Amendment is under threat, what if anything could cause a similar danger to the First Amendment? After 9/11 and the following PATRIOT Act, a lot of people were discussing what they saw as their constitutional freedoms being restricted...

In short, the First Amendment would have to be abolished or be given a substantially different interpretation to the one it has now. While at the moment this may seem implausible(?), if such a thing were to happen, it would be a clear sign visible for all to see that prophecy is indeed unfolding in line with our expectations.
Well, we are seeing how that is now coming to be, is it clearer..

 

     
anything