Author Topic: Understanding the Biblical Creation account as literal or non-literal, and sin.  (Read 640 times)

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Offline Hobie

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I came across a discussion on whether understanding the Biblical Creation account as literal or non-literal, affects our knowledge of the nature of sin? The focus was on Creation (Genesis chapters 1-3) with some reaching into the topics discussed in chapters 4-11. It was very interesting, and it began with the following:

"..One must first demonstrate from the given text that the author did not intend for anyone to read his words as a literal historical account. Any assertion that states that a non-literal reading is the most appropriate reading must provide evidence of specific figurative indicators in the text such as metaphors, similes allegories, hyperbole, symbolism and such. Any discussion on whether or not a non-literal approach affects doctrine is essentially dead in the water IF justification of a non-literal approach cannot textually demonstrated.

It is further argued that a non-literal approach, at least the non-literal approach suggested by PA, is a significant issue doctrinally, as the entire book Genesis is the seedbed for all of the theology that follows. The Bible, from Genesis to Revelation, is a system of progressive revelation that builds upon itself. Meaning that Abraham had more light than Noah, Moses had more light than Abraham, David had more light Moses, Isaiah had more light than David, and the apostles had more than the prophets of the Old Testament. Thus, what was said in earlier parts of the Bible forms the foundation upon which more light was revealed to later generations. ..'We will' examine how succeeding generations of those who were used by God has His human authors of Scripture, saw the creation account. Did Moses, Jesus, David, or any of the prophets or apostles view the Creation account in Genesis as a non-literal account?

The Bible is set up in such a manner that there is no single verse, passage, chapter or book that contains all of the truth on a given matter. In this way, God designed the Bible to be studied and searched out. More to the point, He designed it so that all of the doctrines of Scripture are interlocked with each other. The same passage that is talking about the Holy Spirit may also shed light on other doctrines and so one cannot do violence to a single subject in a single passage without the effects of that act radiating into other areas of Scripture. That is one reason why our interpretive approach must always be consistent.

The Bible is always good at letting us know when figurative language is being used. It tells when something is a vision, allegory or parable, symbol or metaphor. It does not leave it up to us to guess. Absent those textual indicators, the default understanding of any given text in Scripture is literal.... "Literal" means that a text is understood within the framework the author intends. It means to read the text with the object that the author has in view and not to assign any values to the text on our own. A non-literal approach makes the text subject to the whims of the reader and erodes the authority of the author.

...a non-literal approach to Genesis 1-11 devalues the authority of Word of God as final arbiter on all matters of Christian faith and practice. The Bible says that God magnifies His Word above His own Name (Ps. 138:2) and so He places a high premium on His Word and to devalue its authority is, by extension, to devalue the authority of God, Himself. This is no trivial, "take-it or-leave-it matter." God takes His Word very seriously, and so should we....

'Some state'.. that Genesis 1 is not an historical approach to how God created the world. This is false. It is historical and that is the only way to describe it in literary terms. A more accurate way of putting it would be that it is not a  is not an historical approach to how God created the world. This is false. It is historical and that is the only way to describe it in literary terms. A more accurate way of putting it would be that it is not a “scientific” approach..."

As you can see, if Genesis is not literal then the Creator is diminished, the Sabbath is more Moses imprint than Gods, and sin was about a snake that charmed a woman.

Offline Hobie

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To see Creation in the Bible seems to be pretty straightforward. Let’s turn to Genesis 1 to see the process beginning with the first day:

Genesis 1:1-3 King James Version (KJV)
1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

Notice in the text "And the evening and the morning were the first day", as the words "And the evening and the morning" are used for each of the succeeding days.  So we need to determine whether the six days in Creation Week were ordinary days. As when the word is indefinite period of time, such as in the expression, “For the day of the Lord is at hand” (Joel 1:15) or one we know even better, “For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.” (1 Thessalonians 5:2).

We know that the six days in Genesis 1 were ordinary days (not six long ages of millions of years) because the Hebrew word for day (yom) is qualified with “evening,” “morning,” and a number for each of the six days in the Creation Week. When the Hebrew word yom for day is used with any of these qualifiers throughout Scripture, it always means an ordinary day. So here in the Genesis Creation Week, the word, yom, always means a twenty-four-hour literal day as it is used with a numeral—day one, day two, first day, second day, etc. There are no exceptions to this rule. So in the Genesis Creation account these are literal days of twenty-four hours.

This leads us to Adam, who was spontaneously created by God, he didn’t evolve,  on the Sixth Day of Creation. Determining how long ago Adam lived is a straightforward process because Genesis records the age and total lifespan of Adam’s descendants all the way to Abraham and his sons and we can calculate from there. Summing the lifespans in these genealogies leads to Creation Week either about 6,000 years ago. So we have a context of day and time for Creation.

Offline Alan

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It isn't so cut and dry.


Hebrew Dictionaries
 
Let’s start with the possible meanings of Yom;


The Theological Wordbook of the Old Testament (1980, Moody Press)


"It can denote: 1. the period of light (as contrasted with the period of darkness), 2. the period of twenty-four hours, 3. a general vague "time," 4. a point of time, 5. a year (in the plural; I Sam 27:7; Ex 13:10, etc.)."


Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible (symbols omitted)


from an unused root meaning to be hot; a day (as the warm hours), whether literal (from sunrise to sunset, or from one sunset to the next), or figuratively (a space of time defined by an associated term), [often used adv.]:--age, + always, + chronicles, continually (-ance), daily, ([birth-], each, to) day, (now a, two) days (agone),  + elder, end, evening, (for)ever(lasting), ever(more), full, life, as long as (...live), even now, old, outlived, perpetually, presently, remaineth, required, season, since, space, then, (process of) time, as at other times, in trouble, weather (as) when, (a, the, within a) while (that), whole (age), (full) year (-ly), younger


As you can see, Hebrew dictionaries attest to the fact that the word Yom is used for anywhere from 12 hours up to a year, and even a vague "time period" of unspecified length.
 
Other Uses of Yom
 
Day is not the only translation for the word Yom.  Here are some other uses.

Time

It is interesting to note that in 67 verses in the Old Testament, the word Yom is translated into the English word "time."  For instance,  in Genesis 4:3, it says "And in process of time it came to pass, that Cain brought of the fruit of the ground an offering unto the Lord."  In this instance, Yom refers to a growing season, probably several months.  Again, in Deuteronomy 10:10, it refers to a "time" equal to forty days.  In I Kings 11:42, it says "And the time that Solomon reigned in Jerusalem over all Israel was forty years."  In this case, Yom translated as the word "time" is equivalent to a 40 year period.

In Isaiah 30:8, it says "Now go, write it before them in a table, and note it in a book, that it may be for the time to come for ever and ever."  In this case, Yom is equal to "forever."  How long is forever?  An infinite number of years...billions upon billions upon billons of years.  If Yom can equal trillions of years here, then why not billions of years in Genesis?

Year


 Four times in the Old Testament Yom is translated "year."  In I Kings 1:1, "David was old and stricken in years..."  In 2 Chronicles 21:19, "after the end of two years" and in the very next verse "Thirty and two years old."  Finally, in Amos 4:4, "...and your tithes after three years."  In each case, Yom represents years, not days.

Age

Eight times in the Old Testament Yom is translated "age."   These range from sentences like "stricken in age,"  meaning old age (Genesis 18:11 and 24:1; Joshua 23:1 and 23:2), and other times it says "old age" (Genesis 21:2, Genesis 21:7).  Genesis 47:28 refers to "the whole age of Jacob," therefore yom here refers to an entire lifetime.  In Zechariah 8:4, it says old men and women will sit in the streets of Jerusalem, "each with cane in hand because of his age."

Ago

One time Yom is translated "ago."  1 Samuel 9:20 says "As for the donkeys you lost three days ago, ..."

Always

Four times yom is translated as "always," in Deuteronomy 5:29, 6:24, 14:23, and in 2 Chronicles 18:7.  Always here can be interpreted as a lifetime...for instance, we are to keep the commandments of the Lord always (Deut. 5:29).

Season

Three times yom is translated "season."  In Genesis 40:4, "...and they continued a season in ward."  Again, in Joshua 24:7, "dwelt in the wilderness a long season," and in 2 Chronicles 15:3, "...a long season Israel hath been...".  In each case yom represents a multi-month period.

Chronicles

When used in conjunction with the word dâbâr, yom is translated "chronicles" (27 times).Continually

When used in conjunction with kôwl, yom is translated as "continually" (11 times).  Once, in Psalm 139:16, it is translated continuance (without the kôwl).

Ever

Ever is used to represent a long period of time, such as in Deuteronomy 19:9, "to walk ever in his ways."  Nineteen times Yom is translated "ever."  The old testament uses "for ever" instead of the word forever.  In sixteen cases of use of the word ever, for is placed before it, indicating a infinite period of time.  I will not list them all (consult Strong's Concordance for a full listing) but here is an example.  In Psalm 23:6, it says "Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life; and I will dwell in the house of the Lord for ever."  Here Yom is translated as the final word of this verse, ever.  Thus, Yom in this verse, and 16 others, represents eternity.

Evermore

In one instance, when yom is used in conjunction with kôwl, Yom is translated "evermore."  Deuteronomy 28:29, "...and thou shalt be only oppressed and spoiled evermore;" thus representing either a lifetime or eternity.

Word Usage in the Old Testament
As you can see, Yom is used in a wide variety of situations related to the concept of time.  Yom is not just for days...it is for time in general.  How it is translated depends on the context of its use with other words.

Yom in the Creation Account
     
Even within the creation account, Yom is used to represent four different time periods.


Genesis 1:5  "And God called the light Day, and the darkness He called Night."  Here, Moses uses Yom to indicate a 12-hour period
Genesis 1:14  "And God said, "Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night, and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years."  Here, Moses uses Yom to indicate 24-hour days
Genesis 2:4  "...in the day that the Lord God made the earth and the heavens."  Here, Moses uses Yom to indicate the entire creative week.
     The fourth usage of Yom in the creation account is in the summary for each of the six creation days, "and there was morning and evening the first day". Yom is used to represent a finite, long period of time, usually either millions or billions of years.  To show support for this, consider the uses of Yom by Moses.


Moses Other Uses of Yom
     
Moses, the author of the first five books of the Bible, and of Psalm 90, used Yom in many different ways.

Genesis 4:3  "And in process of time it came to pass, that Cain brought of the fruit of the ground an offering unto the Lord."  In this instance, Yom refers to a growing season, probably several months.
Genesis 43:9  "...then let me bear the blame for ever."  Here, Moses uses Yom to represent eternity
Genesis 44:32  "...then I shall bear the blame to my father for ever."  Again, Moses uses Yom to represent eternity
Deuteronomy 4:40  "...that thou mayest prolong thy days upon the earth, which the Lord thy God giveth the, for ever."  Here Yom represents a physical lifetime
Deuteronomy 10:10, "Now I stayed on the mountain forty days and nights, as I did the first time,..."  Here, Yom is a "time" equal to forty days.
Deuteronomy 18:5  "...to stand to minister in the name of the Lord, him and his sons for ever."  Again, Yom is translated as eternity
Deuteronomy 19:9  "...to love the Lord thy God, and to walk ever in His ways..."  Here, Yom represents a lifetime.  As long as we live we are to walk in his ways
 
As you can see, Moses used the word Yom to represent 12-hours, 24 hours, the creative week, forty days, several months, a lifetime, and eternity.
« Last Edit: Wed Sep 18, 2019 - 09:09:46 by Alan »

Offline Hobie

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It isn't so cut and dry.


Hebrew Dictionaries
 
Let’s start with the possible meanings of Yom;


The Theological Wordbook of the Old Testament (1980, Moody Press)


"It can denote: 1. the period of light (as contrasted with the period of darkness), 2. the period of twenty-four hours, 3. a general vague "time," 4. a point of time, 5. a year (in the plural; I Sam 27:7; Ex 13:10, etc.)."


Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible (symbols omitted)


from an unused root meaning to be hot; a day (as the warm hours), whether literal (from sunrise to sunset, or from one sunset to the next), or figuratively (a space of time defined by an associated term), [often used adv.]:--age, + always, + chronicles, continually (-ance), daily, ([birth-], each, to) day, (now a, two) days (agone),  + elder, end, evening, (for)ever(lasting), ever(more), full, life, as long as (...live), even now, old, outlived, perpetually, presently, remaineth, required, season, since, space, then, (process of) time, as at other times, in trouble, weather (as) when, (a, the, within a) while (that), whole (age), (full) year (-ly), younger


As you can see, Hebrew dictionaries attest to the fact that the word Yom is used for anywhere from 12 hours up to a year, and even a vague "time period" of unspecified length.
 
Other Uses of Yom
 
Day is not the only translation for the word Yom.  Here are some other uses.

Time

It is interesting to note that in 67 verses in the Old Testament, the word Yom is translated into the English word "time."  For instance,  in Genesis 4:3, it says "And in process of time it came to pass, that Cain brought of the fruit of the ground an offering unto the Lord."  In this instance, Yom refers to a growing season, probably several months.  Again, in Deuteronomy 10:10, it refers to a "time" equal to forty days.  In I Kings 11:42, it says "And the time that Solomon reigned in Jerusalem over all Israel was forty years."  In this case, Yom translated as the word "time" is equivalent to a 40 year period.

In Isaiah 30:8, it says "Now go, write it before them in a table, and note it in a book, that it may be for the time to come for ever and ever."  In this case, Yom is equal to "forever."  How long is forever?  An infinite number of years...billions upon billions upon billons of years.  If Yom can equal trillions of years here, then why not billions of years in Genesis?

Year


 Four times in the Old Testament Yom is translated "year."  In I Kings 1:1, "David was old and stricken in years..."  In 2 Chronicles 21:19, "after the end of two years" and in the very next verse "Thirty and two years old."  Finally, in Amos 4:4, "...and your tithes after three years."  In each case, Yom represents years, not days.

Age

Eight times in the Old Testament Yom is translated "age."   These range from sentences like "stricken in age,"  meaning old age (Genesis 18:11 and 24:1; Joshua 23:1 and 23:2), and other times it says "old age" (Genesis 21:2, Genesis 21:7).  Genesis 47:28 refers to "the whole age of Jacob," therefore yom here refers to an entire lifetime.  In Zechariah 8:4, it says old men and women will sit in the streets of Jerusalem, "each with cane in hand because of his age."

Ago

One time Yom is translated "ago."  1 Samuel 9:20 says "As for the donkeys you lost three days ago, ..."

Always

Four times yom is translated as "always," in Deuteronomy 5:29, 6:24, 14:23, and in 2 Chronicles 18:7.  Always here can be interpreted as a lifetime...for instance, we are to keep the commandments of the Lord always (Deut. 5:29).

Season

Three times yom is translated "season."  In Genesis 40:4, "...and they continued a season in ward."  Again, in Joshua 24:7, "dwelt in the wilderness a long season," and in 2 Chronicles 15:3, "...a long season Israel hath been...".  In each case yom represents a multi-month period.

Chronicles

When used in conjunction with the word dâbâr, yom is translated "chronicles" (27 times).Continually

When used in conjunction with kôwl, yom is translated as "continually" (11 times).  Once, in Psalm 139:16, it is translated continuance (without the kôwl).

Ever

Ever is used to represent a long period of time, such as in Deuteronomy 19:9, "to walk ever in his ways."  Nineteen times Yom is translated "ever."  The old testament uses "for ever" instead of the word forever.  In sixteen cases of use of the word ever, for is placed before it, indicating a infinite period of time.  I will not list them all (consult Strong's Concordance for a full listing) but here is an example.  In Psalm 23:6, it says "Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life; and I will dwell in the house of the Lord for ever."  Here Yom is translated as the final word of this verse, ever.  Thus, Yom in this verse, and 16 others, represents eternity.

Evermore

In one instance, when yom is used in conjunction with kôwl, Yom is translated "evermore."  Deuteronomy 28:29, "...and thou shalt be only oppressed and spoiled evermore;" thus representing either a lifetime or eternity.

Word Usage in the Old Testament
As you can see, Yom is used in a wide variety of situations related to the concept of time.  Yom is not just for days...it is for time in general.  How it is translated depends on the context of its use with other words.

Yom in the Creation Account
     
Even within the creation account, Yom is used to represent four different time periods.


Genesis 1:5  "And God called the light Day, and the darkness He called Night."  Here, Moses uses Yom to indicate a 12-hour period
Genesis 1:14  "And God said, "Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night, and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years."  Here, Moses uses Yom to indicate 24-hour days
Genesis 2:4  "...in the day that the Lord God made the earth and the heavens."  Here, Moses uses Yom to indicate the entire creative week.
     The fourth usage of Yom in the creation account is in the summary for each of the six creation days, "and there was morning and evening the first day". Yom is used to represent a finite, long period of time, usually either millions or billions of years.  To show support for this, consider the uses of Yom by Moses.


Moses Other Uses of Yom
     
Moses, the author of the first five books of the Bible, and of Psalm 90, used Yom in many different ways.

Genesis 4:3  "And in process of time it came to pass, that Cain brought of the fruit of the ground an offering unto the Lord."  In this instance, Yom refers to a growing season, probably several months.
Genesis 43:9  "...then let me bear the blame for ever."  Here, Moses uses Yom to represent eternity
Genesis 44:32  "...then I shall bear the blame to my father for ever."  Again, Moses uses Yom to represent eternity
Deuteronomy 4:40  "...that thou mayest prolong thy days upon the earth, which the Lord thy God giveth the, for ever."  Here Yom represents a physical lifetime
Deuteronomy 10:10, "Now I stayed on the mountain forty days and nights, as I did the first time,..."  Here, Yom is a "time" equal to forty days.
Deuteronomy 18:5  "...to stand to minister in the name of the Lord, him and his sons for ever."  Again, Yom is translated as eternity
Deuteronomy 19:9  "...to love the Lord thy God, and to walk ever in His ways..."  Here, Yom represents a lifetime.  As long as we live we are to walk in his ways
 
As you can see, Moses used the word Yom to represent 12-hours, 24 hours, the creative week, forty days, several months, a lifetime, and eternity.

As I said, changing to essentially unknown time, hides the truth that God is giving.

Offline 4WD

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As you can see, if Genesis is not literal then the Creator is diminished
Only to the uninformed.

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Offline Amo

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It isn't so cut and dry.


Hebrew Dictionaries
 
Let’s start with the possible meanings of Yom;


The Theological Wordbook of the Old Testament (1980, Moody Press)


"It can denote: 1. the period of light (as contrasted with the period of darkness), 2. the period of twenty-four hours, 3. a general vague "time," 4. a point of time, 5. a year (in the plural; I Sam 27:7; Ex 13:10, etc.)."


Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible (symbols omitted)


from an unused root meaning to be hot; a day (as the warm hours), whether literal (from sunrise to sunset, or from one sunset to the next), or figuratively (a space of time defined by an associated term), [often used adv.]:--age, + always, + chronicles, continually (-ance), daily, ([birth-], each, to) day, (now a, two) days (agone),  + elder, end, evening, (for)ever(lasting), ever(more), full, life, as long as (...live), even now, old, outlived, perpetually, presently, remaineth, required, season, since, space, then, (process of) time, as at other times, in trouble, weather (as) when, (a, the, within a) while (that), whole (age), (full) year (-ly), younger


As you can see, Hebrew dictionaries attest to the fact that the word Yom is used for anywhere from 12 hours up to a year, and even a vague "time period" of unspecified length.
 
Other Uses of Yom
 
Day is not the only translation for the word Yom.  Here are some other uses.

Time

It is interesting to note that in 67 verses in the Old Testament, the word Yom is translated into the English word "time."  For instance,  in Genesis 4:3, it says "And in process of time it came to pass, that Cain brought of the fruit of the ground an offering unto the Lord."  In this instance, Yom refers to a growing season, probably several months.  Again, in Deuteronomy 10:10, it refers to a "time" equal to forty days.  In I Kings 11:42, it says "And the time that Solomon reigned in Jerusalem over all Israel was forty years."  In this case, Yom translated as the word "time" is equivalent to a 40 year period.

In Isaiah 30:8, it says "Now go, write it before them in a table, and note it in a book, that it may be for the time to come for ever and ever."  In this case, Yom is equal to "forever."  How long is forever?  An infinite number of years...billions upon billions upon billons of years.  If Yom can equal trillions of years here, then why not billions of years in Genesis?

Year


 Four times in the Old Testament Yom is translated "year."  In I Kings 1:1, "David was old and stricken in years..."  In 2 Chronicles 21:19, "after the end of two years" and in the very next verse "Thirty and two years old."  Finally, in Amos 4:4, "...and your tithes after three years."  In each case, Yom represents years, not days.

Age

Eight times in the Old Testament Yom is translated "age."   These range from sentences like "stricken in age,"  meaning old age (Genesis 18:11 and 24:1; Joshua 23:1 and 23:2), and other times it says "old age" (Genesis 21:2, Genesis 21:7).  Genesis 47:28 refers to "the whole age of Jacob," therefore yom here refers to an entire lifetime.  In Zechariah 8:4, it says old men and women will sit in the streets of Jerusalem, "each with cane in hand because of his age."

Ago

One time Yom is translated "ago."  1 Samuel 9:20 says "As for the donkeys you lost three days ago, ..."

Always

Four times yom is translated as "always," in Deuteronomy 5:29, 6:24, 14:23, and in 2 Chronicles 18:7.  Always here can be interpreted as a lifetime...for instance, we are to keep the commandments of the Lord always (Deut. 5:29).

Season

Three times yom is translated "season."  In Genesis 40:4, "...and they continued a season in ward."  Again, in Joshua 24:7, "dwelt in the wilderness a long season," and in 2 Chronicles 15:3, "...a long season Israel hath been...".  In each case yom represents a multi-month period.

Chronicles

When used in conjunction with the word dâbâr, yom is translated "chronicles" (27 times).Continually

When used in conjunction with kôwl, yom is translated as "continually" (11 times).  Once, in Psalm 139:16, it is translated continuance (without the kôwl).

Ever

Ever is used to represent a long period of time, such as in Deuteronomy 19:9, "to walk ever in his ways."  Nineteen times Yom is translated "ever."  The old testament uses "for ever" instead of the word forever.  In sixteen cases of use of the word ever, for is placed before it, indicating a infinite period of time.  I will not list them all (consult Strong's Concordance for a full listing) but here is an example.  In Psalm 23:6, it says "Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life; and I will dwell in the house of the Lord for ever."  Here Yom is translated as the final word of this verse, ever.  Thus, Yom in this verse, and 16 others, represents eternity.

Evermore

In one instance, when yom is used in conjunction with kôwl, Yom is translated "evermore."  Deuteronomy 28:29, "...and thou shalt be only oppressed and spoiled evermore;" thus representing either a lifetime or eternity.

Word Usage in the Old Testament
As you can see, Yom is used in a wide variety of situations related to the concept of time.  Yom is not just for days...it is for time in general.  How it is translated depends on the context of its use with other words.

Yom in the Creation Account
     
Even within the creation account, Yom is used to represent four different time periods.


Genesis 1:5  "And God called the light Day, and the darkness He called Night."  Here, Moses uses Yom to indicate a 12-hour period
Genesis 1:14  "And God said, "Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night, and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years."  Here, Moses uses Yom to indicate 24-hour days
Genesis 2:4  "...in the day that the Lord God made the earth and the heavens."  Here, Moses uses Yom to indicate the entire creative week.
     The fourth usage of Yom in the creation account is in the summary for each of the six creation days, "and there was morning and evening the first day". Yom is used to represent a finite, long period of time, usually either millions or billions of years.  To show support for this, consider the uses of Yom by Moses.


Moses Other Uses of Yom
     
Moses, the author of the first five books of the Bible, and of Psalm 90, used Yom in many different ways.

Genesis 4:3  "And in process of time it came to pass, that Cain brought of the fruit of the ground an offering unto the Lord."  In this instance, Yom refers to a growing season, probably several months.
Genesis 43:9  "...then let me bear the blame for ever."  Here, Moses uses Yom to represent eternity
Genesis 44:32  "...then I shall bear the blame to my father for ever."  Again, Moses uses Yom to represent eternity
Deuteronomy 4:40  "...that thou mayest prolong thy days upon the earth, which the Lord thy God giveth the, for ever."  Here Yom represents a physical lifetime
Deuteronomy 10:10, "Now I stayed on the mountain forty days and nights, as I did the first time,..."  Here, Yom is a "time" equal to forty days.
Deuteronomy 18:5  "...to stand to minister in the name of the Lord, him and his sons for ever."  Again, Yom is translated as eternity
Deuteronomy 19:9  "...to love the Lord thy God, and to walk ever in His ways..."  Here, Yom represents a lifetime.  As long as we live we are to walk in his ways
 
As you can see, Moses used the word Yom to represent 12-hours, 24 hours, the creative week, forty days, several months, a lifetime, and eternity.


Yet, as far as I know, no bible translator to date has applied any of the above meanings apart from a typical day to the Genesis creation account, or the fourth commandment which sums it up. Why do you think that is?

Offline 4WD

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Yet, as far as I know, no bible translator to date has applied any of the above meanings apart from a typical day to the Genesis creation account, or the fourth commandment which sums it up. Why do you think that is?
Because the English word day, like the Hebrew word yom is not limited to the meaning you would attach to it.  What is meant, for example, as "in the day of dinosaurs" or "in the day of Japan's imperial reign over the far east" or .....?

Offline Amo

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Because the English word day, like the Hebrew word yom is not limited to the meaning you would attach to it.  What is meant, for example, as "in the day of dinosaurs" or "in the day of Japan's imperial reign over the far east" or .....?

That is right. What is the point of showing where the Hebrew word translated as day in the creation account and the fourth commandment is actually translated into a different word in other scriptures, if your point is that the word day itself can mean different things. The fact that translators know the word can mean different things and even translated it to mean different things in other scriptures, does not help your argument when almost all translators, if not all translators have translated it as day in the creation account and the fourth commandment. If any of them did not think it meant a literal day, then why didn't any of them translate it otherwise as they did elsewhere.

Offline 4WD

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That is right. What is the point of showing where the Hebrew word translated as day in the creation account and the fourth commandment is actually translated into a different word in other scriptures, if your point is that the word day itself can mean different things. The fact that translators know the word can mean different things and even translated it to mean different things in other scriptures, does not help your argument when almost all translators, if not all translators have translated it as day in the creation account and the fourth commandment. If any of them did not think it meant a literal day, then why didn't any of them translate it otherwise as they did elsewhere.
Perhaps they were as ill-informed as you are about the glory of God as declared by the heavens and His handiwork shown by the firmament (Psa 19:1).

Offline Amo

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Perhaps they were as ill-informed as you are about the glory of God as declared by the heavens and His handiwork shown by the firmament (Psa 19:1).

To the contrary, I celebrate that glory according to the exact purpose of the fourth commandment, exactly stated within the same. You are the one who rejects this rest and celebration, not me.

Exo 20:8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: 10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: 11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.


Offline 4WD

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To the contrary, I celebrate that glory according to the exact purpose of the fourth commandment, exactly stated within the same. You are the one who rejects this rest and celebration, not me.

Exo 20:8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: 10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: 11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.
Nothing you proclaim concerning God's creation comes about or is supported by the evidence as declared by the heavens and God's handiwork as evidenced by the firmament.

Offline Amo

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Nothing you proclaim concerning God's creation comes about or is supported by the evidence as declared by the heavens and God's handiwork as evidenced by the firmament.

The man you are quoting from scripture believed as I do, not as you do. Using his words to support the vain imaginings your and other evolutionists call evidence is a gross misrepresentation.

Offline 4WD

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And he believed the earth was flat, that the sun went down in the west and moved such that it came back up in the east, just as you probably do, since that is the literal interpretation.

Offline Amo

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And he believed the earth was flat, that the sun went down in the west and moved such that it came back up in the east, just as you probably do, since that is the literal interpretation.

The sun still rises in the east and sets in the west and is spoken of as such by countless who know the world to be round and spinning. Your faulty reasoning concerning what I believe is no doubt just as faulty concerning what he believed. Perhaps such reasoning is also why you believe God's creation evidences evolution.

Offline Alan

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The sun still rises in the east and sets in the west and is spoken of as such by countless who know the world to be round and spinning. Your faulty reasoning concerning what I believe is no doubt just as faulty concerning what he believed. Perhaps such reasoning is also why you believe God's creation evidences evolution.


But you'll never find a single person (aside from nutbar geocentrists) that won't admit the term is purely metaphorical.

Offline Amo

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But you'll never find a single person (aside from nutbar geocentrists) that won't admit the term is purely metaphorical.

I don't think most ever even consider whether it is metaphorical or not. Whatever the causes, they just experience that the sun appears to rise in the sky from the east, and set back down in the west. This is exactly what it does from the only visible perspective we have. Knowledge of exactly why it appears that way, does not change that appearance and or therefore the verbal expressions associated with the same. This being the case, it is not really a metaphor, but simply the audible expression of that which can be seen to happen from the only visual perspective most are privy too. We are on the planet looking up or out, not in space looking down on the earth or upon the interaction of the sun moon and planets. It is not a metaphor to describe what one sees from the only visual perspective they have. A metaphor involves the intent to be figurative, does it not? I don't think most people speaking of the sun rising or setting are intending to be metaphorical.

Offline 4WD

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I don't think most ever even consider whether it is metaphorical or not.
I don't think Giordano Bruno would agree with you.

Offline Alan

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I don't think most ever even consider whether it is metaphorical or not. Whatever the causes, they just experience that the sun appears to rise in the sky from the east, and set back down in the west. This is exactly what it does from the only visible perspective we have. Knowledge of exactly why it appears that way, does not change that appearance and or therefore the verbal expressions associated with the same. This being the case, it is not really a metaphor, but simply the audible expression of that which can be seen to happen from the only visual perspective most are privy too. We are on the planet looking up or out, not in space looking down on the earth or upon the interaction of the sun moon and planets. It is not a metaphor to describe what one sees from the only visual perspective they have. A metaphor involves the intent to be figurative, does it not? I don't think most people speaking of the sun rising or setting are intending to be metaphorical.


I fully understand and agree with what you are saying, what I can't understand is how these observations as simple as they are, couldn't have possibly made it into the pages of the Bible by your account.

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I don't think Giordano Bruno would agree with you.

Giordano Bruno wasn't most people. Neither does the fact that Roman Catholicism used to persecute all who wouldn't submit to her usurped authority, have anything to do with the true wisdom and authority found in the holy scriptures, of course. I don't think it likely either, that Giordano was the first to make such observations. No telling how much knowledge has been lost and or regained over the course of history, save according to the records which have either survived, or were ever accurately recorded in the first place. Without question massive amounts of ancient literature and knowledge has been destroyed over the centuries, quite a bit of it on purpose by the likes of the Church of Rome when she had the power to do such. No telling how much knowledge perished in the library of Alexandria alone, speaking of just one incident.

Offline Amo

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I fully understand and agree with what you are saying, what I can't understand is how these observations as simple as they are, couldn't have possibly made it into the pages of the Bible by your account.

Not sure I'm following your point. The Bible is not a science manual. Nor does that fact mean that everything recorded in it regarding the mechanism of our existence, or particulars of the creation, is meant to be taken metaphorically. It just means that for whatever reasons, God did not get into the science or how of His creation and or creative power. Nor of course does the fact that many over the course of history who have put their minds to figuring such things out, means that any of them have correctly done so. To the contrary, all such tremendous self confidence would most likely be presumption.

Psa 94:11 The LORD knoweth the thoughts of man, that they are vanity. 12 Blessed is the man whom thou chastenest, O LORD, and teachest him out of thy law;

Isa 55:8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. 9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts. 10 For as the rain cometh down, and the snow from heaven, and returneth not thither, but watereth the earth, and maketh it bring forth and bud, that it may give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater: 11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

Heb 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. 13 Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do.


God does not have to, nor has He attempted to scientifically explain things about Himself which fallen humanity no doubt, could not comprehend in their present condition. It is only the extreme limitations of fallen humanity, which cause it to reject the biblically proclaimed power of the word of God itself.

Psa 33:6 By the word of the LORD were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath of his mouth. 7 He gathereth the waters of the sea together as an heap: he layeth up the depth in storehouses. 8 Let all the earth fear the LORD: let all the inhabitants of the world stand in awe of him. 9 For he spake, and it was done; he commanded, and it stood fast.

The above conclusive statement is not a metaphor. Just because the thing is beyond our grasp or understanding does not make it untrue. Nor does it mean it must be metaphorical. To suggest such is the sin of presumption, as though nothing could be above the grasp of our own intellect, when God has emphatically stated that there is. 

Psa 147:1 Praise ye the LORD: for it is good to sing praises unto our God; for it is pleasant; and praise is comely. 2 The LORD doth build up Jerusalem: he gathereth together the outcasts of Israel. 3 He healeth the broken in heart, and bindeth up their wounds. 4 He telleth the number of the stars; he calleth them all by their names. 5 Great is our Lord, and of great power: his understanding is infinite.

Isa 40:25 To whom then will ye liken me, or shall I be equal? saith the Holy One. 26 Lift up your eyes on high, and behold who hath created these things, that bringeth out their host by number: he calleth them all by names by the greatness of his might, for that he is strong in power; not one faileth. 27 Why sayest thou, O Jacob, and speakest, O Israel, My way is hid from the LORD, and my judgment is passed over from my God? 28 Hast thou not known? hast thou not heard, that the everlasting God, the LORD, the Creator of the ends of the earth, fainteth not, neither is weary? there is no searching of his understanding.

It is one thing for fallen humanity to seek to explain the mechanisms of their existence and world. It is another altogether to exalt all such speculations and theories as undeniable facts. This is nothing short of the pride and presumption of fallen humanity which the scriptures so often address and condemn.

Pro 8:13 The fear of the LORD is to hate evil: pride, and arrogancy, and the evil way, and the froward mouth, do I hate.

Pro 16:17 The highway of the upright is to depart from evil: he that keepeth his way preserveth his soul. 18 Pride goeth before destruction, and an haughty spirit before a fall.