Author Topic: What are the words of the ‘first covenant’?  (Read 1645 times)

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Offline Michael2012

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Re: What are the words of the ‘first covenant’?
« Reply #70 on: Sun Dec 15, 2019 - 10:23:31 »
Hi Michael, Your post is very thoughtful yet I scratch my head as to how most of us divide the Word.  I have asked the question many times if the laws of the covenant, given to Moses and the children of Israel, are now binding on all mankind why are we not observing those laws just as were with the Israelites before the curtain of the Temple was rent or better yet before the Temple was destroyed in 70AD?  Only one Messianic has ever responded.  I cannot remember for sure, I think he responded that he was not going to cut his sideburns any more.  Messianics keep the Sabbath and all the feast days and are kosher.  Sinch you have explained in your post that we are still under the laws of the Sinai covenant are you now or are you willing to do the same as the Messianic fellow?

By the way, your interpretation of what laws we are under is diametrically opposed to what Paul taught.  Have you culled Paul's writings?

I don't know where in my post have I ever said that we are still under the laws of the Sinai covenant. I never said such.

As I said the old covenant refers to that which God made with the children of Israel in the day when He took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt. So, the old covenant and the covenant laws was not with the rest of the world but with the descendants of Israel (Jacob). 

There is now a New Covenant, which had replaced that Covenant God made with the children of Israel at the time of Moses. The mediator of the New Covenant isn't Moses, but is Jesus Christ. Would you like us to discuss the two Covenants?


Offline beam

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Re: What are the words of the ‘first covenant’?
« Reply #71 on: Sun Dec 15, 2019 - 15:56:30 »
author=beam link=topic=105033.msg1055152867#msg1055152867 date=1576346331]
Matt. 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. (The opposite of destroy)
It would seem that you cannot even be honest with your appraisal of the words destroy and fulfil.  Even if you were correct what does that have to do with whether we are under the Sinai covenant.  Jesus lived under the Sinai covenant.  The laws of the covenant had to continue until the new covenant was ratified.  Once all mankind was subject to the new covenant, whether they/we believed or didn't believe, the old one became obsolete.  Jesus is our High Priest and where there is a change in the priesthood there is also a change in the law.

Antonyms for destroy
aid
assist
bear
begin
build
construct
create
fix
give birth
help
lose
mend
repair
start
improve
keep
preserve
retain
save
validate
restore
MOST RELEVANT
Roget's 21st Century Thesaurus, Third Edition Copyright © 2013 by the Philip Lief Group.


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The Jesus I believe in is still alive, raised from the dead. He is still fulfilling His Priesthood duties.

Rom. 8:34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

And He WILL FULFIL all the Prophesies about Him that has not yet been fulfilled. Everything that has been prophesied shall come to pass, Nothing that has been prophesied shall remain undone.

Do you not believe this?
Yes
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Is this not why He said "Till all be fulfilled"?
no
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Paul and Jesus were on the same page and I am in agreement with them.
Then why are you opposing me?   I don't believe you are on the same page as Paul.


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Rom. 2:13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

Matt. 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. (Lawlessness)

2 Tim. 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

Why does this teaching exist? Because Paul understood and believed all that is written in the Law and Prophets, and believed Jesus when He said He didn't come to destroy them. Not because the Pope or Ellen or you says so, but because they said so.
I believe the Israelites were under all of the law.  Gentiles were never asked or required to be under those laws.  Why do you insist that we subject ourselves to the Law now?  Where is there even a hint that Christians are to abide by the laws given to Israel only?  O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?

2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

4 Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain.

5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.

7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.  Gal 3:

Judaizers were convincing Galatians they had to keep the demands of the Sinai covenant.  Those Judaizers remind me of anyone that is trying to convince others that have to abide by the rules of the Sinai covenant.  Christians have our own covenant to live up to.  In Gal 3: 19 Paul wrote:19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator. and 23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.

24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.



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I am not SDA.

Good, but you sure had me fooled.

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You refuse to acknowledge the problem I have with your religion, namely, that there is not one Prophesy which foretells of the end of God's Laws, Sabbaths, Feasts days, etc.
Does there have to be a prophecy?  There was the prophecy of Jeremiah which was later critiqued in the book of Hebrews.  The new covenant is not like the old covenant, it is a better covenant with better promises.  Could it possibly be that writing my laws in their hearts could mean the laws that Jesus gave us rather than the 613 laws that Israel failed time and time again to uphold?  Paul sure thought so when he wrote that the ten commandments were done away.

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And neither Jesus, nor His Apostles say such a thing.

Wrong!

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But there are countless Scriptures about His displeasure with the Levitical Priesthood and religious men who lead God's People astray. Jesus Himself warned that "Christians" are who we need to "Take Heed" of, and so does Paul. Shall we not believe them?
What about the "countless" times he was displeased with all of Israel, even Moses.  God kept faithful Moses from stepping on the soil that God promised to give to Israel.
 
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I'm learning that Jesus' Word's are truth beyond any measure of man. He said also; "If they believe not Moses and the Prophets, neither will they believe though ONE Rose from the dead". So unless you can deny yourself and "believe" all that is written, we will never come to agreement, which makes a prolonged argument a vanity.
Hold on there partner, I have never written or ever indicated that I do not believe.  That in no way stops us from believing we are not under the laws of a covenant given only to Israel.   

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But because I love the brethren, I would like to show you proof of the Christ Himself separating the Levitical Priesthood from the 10 commandments and God's other laws.

First, the scripture you refused to acknowledge.

1 Sam. 15:22 And Samuel said, Hath the LORD as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the LORD? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams. 23 For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry. Because thou hast rejected the word of the LORD, he hath also rejected thee from being king.

The Christ is clearly teaching that obedience to God's Commandments is better than sacrifices for transgressing them.

Also, Jesus walked the earth forgiving sins. This Job was specifically given to the Levites. He was not a Levite, and He didn't even one time enter the Holy of Holies with animal blood which was required, by Law, for the atonement of sins.

But it is written that Jesus never broke even one Commandment of God, He never sinned even one time. Why then, was He able to perform Priesthood duties that it was unlawful for a man from Judah to perform?

Because He separated once again, the Levitical Priesthood duties from the Spiritual, Good, Holy and Just Commandments of God.
First of all we have to recognize who Jesus was talking to and the fact that He too was under the Sinai covenant.  All Israelites at that time were under the laws of the Sinai covenant.  The new covenant had yet to be ratified.  Jesus taught what then was the law.  Why would you say that Jesus performed priesthood duties.  Did He ever work in the Temple  Did He ever offer sacrifices for the Israelites in the Temple.  Was He forbidden to teach because of some law that kept layman from teaching.  What are you trying to prove?

« Last Edit: Tue Dec 17, 2019 - 07:31:28 by beam »

Offline GB

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Re: What are the words of the ‘first covenant’?
« Reply #72 on: Mon Dec 16, 2019 - 11:57:13 »
 author=beam link=topic=105033.msg1055152932#msg1055152932 date=1576446990]
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It would seem that you cannot even be honest with your appraisal of the words destroy and fulfil.  Even if you were correct what does that have to do with whether we are under the Sinai covenant.  Jesus lived under the Sinai covenant.  The laws of the covenant had to continue until the new covenant was ratified.  Once all mankind was subject to the new covenant, whether they/we believed or didn't believe, the old one became obsolete.  Jesus is our High Priest and where there is a change in the priesthood there is also a change in the law.

I have to go by what Jesus says, not ancient catholic doctrine. God's Commandments, Statutes and Laws did not became obsolete. The Christ points out in detail what became obsolete.

#1. How God's Laws were administered. After those days, no more Levite Priests, I will take over their duties and administer God's Laws myself.

#2. No more Levitical Priesthood "works of the Law" for atonement of sins, I will atone for your sins Myself.

You are adding more to this than Jesus did, not because of any Scriptures which tell you to do so, but because of the influence of religions of this land.

You must reject the Greek meaning for destroy and fulfill because they show the two to be opposite in meaning. This verse is falsely interpreted by you to say "Think not that I come to bring and end the Law and Prophets, I came not to bring to an end, but to bring to an end."

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I believe the Israelites were under all of the law.

We were all under the Law, not just Israel, which means we were all dead because we broke God's Laws. But Jesus paid this death for us, so we are no longer "under the Law".

Rom. 6:15 What then? shall we sin, (shall we continue to break God's Commandments) because we are not under the law, (DEAD) but under grace? (ALIVE) God forbid.

16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin (disobedience) unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

I can't just reject whatever Word's of the Bible that doesn't agree with this religious franchise or that.

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Gentiles were never asked or required to be under those laws.  Why do you insist that we subject ourselves to the Law now?

You preach this, but it isn't true.

Is. 56:1 Thus saith the LORD, Keep ye judgment, and do justice: for my salvation is near to come, and my righteousness to be revealed. 2 Blessed is the man that doeth this, and the son of man that layeth hold on it; that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and keepeth his hand from doing any evil. 3 Neither let the son of the stranger, that hath joined himself to the LORD, speak, saying, The LORD hath utterly separated me from his people: neither let the eunuch say, Behold, I am a dry tree. 4 For thus saith the LORD unto the eunuchs that keep my sabbaths, and choose the things that please me, and take hold of my covenant;

5 Even unto them will I give in mine house and within my walls a place and a name better than of sons and of daughters: I will give them an everlasting name, that shall not be cut off. 6 Also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to the LORD, to serve him, and to love the name of the LORD, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant; 7 Even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted upon mine altar; for mine house shall be called an house of prayer for all people.

It seems you don't believe these Words.


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Where is there even a hint that Christians are to abide by the laws given to Israel only?  O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?

I don't believe the Jews were trying to get the Galatians to obey God's Laws that they rejected and omitted from their religion.

You have been deceived into believing the Jews were teaching and following God's Laws, and were pushing God's Laws onto the Galatians. To believe this you must reject EVERY WORD Jesus used to describe them.

The "Works of the Law" the Jews were pushing on the Galatians was their version of the Levitical Priesthood that was Added to God's Laws, because of "Transgression" of God's Laws. This Priesthood that Abraham did not have, was "ADDED" on Mt. Sinai until the Seed, our High Priest, should come. It was a "shadow" of the Sacrifice Jesus was to make for His People.

 It was to "lead them to their Savior". It did just that for Zechariahs and Simeon. When He came, this Law became "obsolete". But the 2 greatest Commandments in the law, and those Laws which show how to live in them, have not become obsolete. The teaching that they have is a deception that has snared many.

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7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.  Gal 3:[/color][/b]
Judaizers were convincing Galatians they had to keep the demands of the Sinai covenant.

This is true in the matter of the Priesthood God "ADDED" to His Laws on Mt. Sinai. It is this Priesthood they were still pushing, because they didn't believe the Law and Prophets, and the scriptures I have given you.

You are free to preach anything you want. If you want to preach that the Jews were all the sudden trying to get the Galatians to obey all of God's instructions, go for it. But the truth is they were pushing their version of the Levitical Priesthood for the atonement of sins, which was "ADDED" to God's Laws and given to Israel on Mt. Sinai. Remember, the Bible says Abraham had God's Laws, God's Commandments, and God's Statutes, but he didn't have the Levitical Priesthood "works of the Law" for atonement of sins. He was justified "apart" from this Law. It was "ADDED" 430 years later.



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  Those Judaizers remind me of anyone that is trying to convince others that have to abide by the rules of the Sinai covenant.  Christians have our own covenant to live up to.  In Gal 3: 19 Paul wrote:19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator. and 23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.

24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

Added to what, because of Transgression of what Beam? Are you really preaching to the world that once we are led to the Christ, we no longer need to Love God, don't kill, don't steal, etc.? Or is Paul explaining the "ADDED" Priesthood that became obsolete when Jesus came, as Prophesied.

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Does there have to be a prophecy?

Luke 24:25 Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken: 26 Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory?

I would say yes. How else would we know if a teaching is from God or man.

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  There was the prophecy of Jeremiah which was later critiqued in the book of Hebrews.  The new covenant is not like the old covenant, it is a better covenant with better promises.  Could it possibly be that writing my laws in their hearts could mean the laws that Jesus gave us rather than the 613 laws that Israel failed time and time again to uphold?  Paul sure thought so when he wrote that the ten commandments were done away.

Your "new covenant" and the one the Christ promised are two different covenants as the scriptures regarding them clearly show.. Is it a better that we can know God's Word without relying of corrupt Priests to teach us? Is it a better covenant to atone for sins once and for all, as opposed to shedding the blood of animals over and over? And again, you are purposely furthering an insidious lie that God created 613 laws for man to follow, then killed them when they didn't follow them. I have asked for support for this false teaching, but you refuse to supply it. Why would you do such a thing.
 
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What about the "countless" times he was displeased with all of Israel, even Moses.  God kept faithful Moses from stepping on the soil that God promised to give to Israel.

Paul answers your questions, you just haven't been taught it by your preachers.

1 Cor. 10:1 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; 2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; 3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat; 4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ. 5 But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness.

6 Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted.

11 Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.

12 Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.

Why did Zechariahs and Simeon know the Christ when He came, but the Levite Priest's didn't? One heeded the examples written for them, the others did not.

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  Hold on there partner, I have never written or ever indicated that I do not believe.  That in no way stops us from believing we are not under the laws of a covenant given only to Israel. 

But Beam, God's Law wasn't just for Israel. This is your religion, but just like your covenant, and your 613 laws, it isn't from the God of the Bible. I don't say these things to be mean, rather, to warn you of what Jesus warned of over and over. I think we should get our information from the Christ, the Author of my Faith, not random religions of the land.

Ex. 12:49 One law shall be to him that is homeborn, (Jew) and unto the stranger (Gentile) that sojourneth among you.

Is. 56:2 Blessed is the man that doeth this, and the son of man that layeth hold on it; that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and keepeth his hand from doing any evil.

3 Neither let the son of the stranger, (Gentile) that hath joined himself to the LORD, speak, saying, The LORD hath utterly separated me from his people: neither let the eunuch say, Behold, I am a dry tree.

4 For thus saith the LORD unto the eunuchs that keep my sabbaths, and choose the things that please me, and take hold of my covenant;

5 Even unto them will I give in mine house and within my walls a place and a name better than of sons and of daughters: I will give them an everlasting name, that shall not be cut off.

Why do you not believe this, and why do you preach the opposite.

6 Also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to the LORD, to serve him, and to love the name of the LORD, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant;

7 Even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted upon mine altar; for mine house shall be called an house of prayer for all people.

How can you not be corrected by these Word's? Can you see what I mean? You preach one thing;

 " we are not under the laws of a covenant given only to Israel"

But the Christ teaches the opposite.

"Even unto them (Gentiles) will I give in mine house and within my walls a place and a name better than of sons and of daughters"
 
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[/u]First of all we have to recognize who Jesus was talking to and the fact that He too was under the Sinai covenant.  All Israelites at that time were under the laws of the Sinai covenant.  The new covenant had yet to be ratified.  Jesus taught what then was the law.  Why would you say that Jesus performed priesthood duties.  Did He ever work in the Temple  Did He ever offer sacrifices for the Israelites in the Temple.  Was He forbidden to teach because of some law that kept layman from teaching.  What are you trying to prove?

Did Jesus forgive sins while walking on earth? How could he do this when according to the Law only Levites could perform these Priesthood duties. In fact, it was expressly forbidden for anyone other than a Levite to partake in the "atonement" process. Hebrews explains how Jesus was able to do this and not be guilty of sin.

First He created a New Covenant in which He became the source of God's Laws, not the Levites according to the Covenant God made with Israel on Mt. Sinai. And He became the High Priest to perform the Priesthood duties for the atonement of sins, not the Levite Priests according to the Covenant God made with Israel in Mt. Sinai.

Heb. 7:11 If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?

12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.

And what was that change in the law Beam? The Author tells you, in detail, exactly what that change was.

13 For he (Jesus) of whom these things are spoken pertaineth to another tribe, of which no man gave attendance at the altar.

14 For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood.

According to the Covenant God made with Israel, on Mt. Sinai, only a Levite could perform Priesthood duties. So for Jesus to become our High Priest, there was, by necessity, a need to change the Law so as to allow someone from another tribe to become the High Priest.

It's right there in your own Bible Beam. Read it for yourself, and tell me how my understanding is not truth according to HIS Word.
 





Offline beam

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Re: What are the words of the ‘first covenant’?
« Reply #73 on: Tue Dec 17, 2019 - 07:28:44 »
I don't know where in my post have I ever said that we are still under the laws of the Sinai covenant. I never said such.
Thanks very much for setting me straight.  I was completely with you until the last paragraph where I became confused.
You wrote:
Now, it will be a mistake to take the old covenant to refer to "the Law and the Prophets", that is, scriptures. It should be clear that the Old Covenant is not "the Law and the Prophets". So, while the Old Covenant is no more, having been replaced by the New Covenant, the "Law and the Prophets", that is, the Holy Scriptures remains. And not only the Scriptures that were written in ancient times before Christ remains, but God even added to these Scriptures after Christ. These are the Holy Scriptures of God which we now have in our Bibles. And as Paul put it, all scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness. Now scriptures is God's words.

 Where you wrote: the "Law and the Prophets", that is, the Holy Scriptures remains.  and is profitable for doctrine,

and then finished up by quoting the scripture: For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.   my mind didn't comprehend correctly.   I now see that we are on the same wavelength and I apologize for mistaking your thoughts.

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As I said the old covenant refers to that which God made with the children of Israel in the day when He took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt. So, the old covenant and the covenant laws was not with the rest of the world but with the descendants of Israel (Jacob). 

There is now a New Covenant, which had replaced that Covenant God made with the children of Israel at the time of Moses. The mediator of the New Covenant isn't Moses, but is Jesus Christ. Would you like us to discuss the two Covenants?
I like to discuss anything relating to God's Word.  Understanding the covenants, limited as it is, was why I broke the bonds with the SDA church.  I was never taught anything about the covenants growing up and when the Adventists approached me if I believed in the ten commandments, of course, I said yes.  Then they asked me about the fourth commandment and I answered by telling them I faithfully attended church every Sunday.  Their retort response was that the fourth commandment tells us the day to worship is Saturday.  At that time I bought in hook, line and sinker.  Indoctrination came next and once indoctrinated it is very hard to see anything differently.   I pray that those who rely on the laws of the old covenant for their salvation will join in and grasp the real truth.  Without knowledge of the two covenants it is very hard to understand what Jesus really did for mankind.   The SDA prophet wrote:  It means eternal salvation to keep the Sabbath holy unto the Lord. God says: "Them that honor Me I will honor." {6T 356.4}   One of the indoctrinations is believing the SDA prophet.

Offline Amo

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Re: What are the words of the ‘first covenant’?
« Reply #74 on: Sat Dec 21, 2019 - 14:03:58 »
In Jesus' reference to the law and the prophets, he is talking about the law, the first five books of the Bible, the Pentateuch,  and the books of prophecy in the Old Testament.  It was a Jewish reference to the Old Testament.

He was also talking about the ten commandments, thus the reference to commandments. After which He addressed two of the ten in expounding upon their increased spiritual significance during the new covenant era, not any decreased significance.

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Re: What are the words of the ‘first covenant’?
« Reply #74 on: Sat Dec 21, 2019 - 14:03:58 »



Offline Amo

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Re: What are the words of the ‘first covenant’?
« Reply #75 on: Sat Dec 21, 2019 - 14:20:11 »
You are diametrically opposing the words of Jesus.  Jesus said he came to fulfil the prophets prophecies.  I am sure the prophecies were about His coming to save mankind.   He brought those prophecies to an end, He fulfilled them.   The same with the Law, He brought the Law to an end, all of it.  If Jesus didn't bring all of the Law to an end then not one jot or one tittle would pass from that Law.   Notta, nothing, not the sacrificial laws, not the sideburn laws, not the feast laws, not the new moon laws.  Why are you being so dense concerning His words to us?   Why can't you accept 2Cor3:6-11 as being the truth about the ten commandments.  The King James version that is considered the standard for Christian concept says that the ten commandments were done away.  Why is that so hard to swallow?  Jesus didn't leave man lawless.  He gave us the Royal Law of Love.  The law that covers all misdeeds to God, ourselves and our fellow man.  The new covenant is not about keeping feasts given only to the Israelites.  It is the same with the ritual laws concerning the weekly Sabbath.  Those laws were given only to Israel.  Go to worship on any day you please, but please do not tell others it is a requirement from God.  SDAs and other groups are deceiving those they are trying to convert.

Just more repeated dung. We just don't want to swallow your oft repeated dung. Go tell your Sunday keeping Christians that a day doesn't matter, while they continue to pass Sunday laws forcing their day upon everyone. Not only does a day matter, but which day one chooses will literally decide their salvation or not before this is all over. Even you will choose between them if you are here to the end. The seventh day Sabbath is not part of ritual laws. God established it at creation, reestablished it for His people when He chose a nation to represent Him in this world, and taught its proper observance again when here as one of us for our salvation. It was pronounced as a sign by God Himself, that He is the one who sanctifies us. None but those sanctified by God will enter into heaven. Those who knowingly and willingly reject any of God's commandments will not enter heaven.

Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. 15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie. 16  I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.

Offline Amo

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Re: What are the words of the ‘first covenant’?
« Reply #76 on: Sat Dec 21, 2019 - 14:27:34 »
Amo wrote:Exactly Amo, verse 2 of Romans 8 says the same thing as does 2Cor3:6-11 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.  The law of sin and death was the ten commandments.  Those commandments were the guide for Israel.  Verse 8 of 2Cor3 says: "8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?"  More glorious than what Amo?   More glorious than the ten commandments that were done away.

Those same commandments are still the standard and are to convict the sinner of their need of their Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To come to Him alone who can forgive, and empower them to change from law breaking sinners to law keeping new creatures in Christ Jesus. Not keeping the law in order to be saved, but because they love the Lord Jesus Christ and want to fully submit to God the Father through Jesus
christ the Son. Who came to fulfill and establish the law, not do away with it.

Offline Amo

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Re: What are the words of the ‘first covenant’?
« Reply #77 on: Sat Dec 21, 2019 - 14:37:42 »
Amo wrote:You are boxing yourself in a corner Amo. You are once again telling us that Jesus didn't bring to an end THE LAW yet in the same breath you tell us that He did do away with parts of the Law.  You really do not make any sense.  Not one jot.......  Boy are you confused.  You have been so indoctrinated with the ten commandments that you cannot fathom something better with better promises.  I really feel bad that someone should take it upon themselves to spread those untruths.  The biggest perpetrator was none other than the false prophet, Ellen White.

Wake up beam. Are you talking about me, or the apostle of your fake gospel Paul. You use many of his words to spread your fake gospel, but ignore others which won't fit in with it. Your apostle speaks of establishing and abolishing the law. Is he boxing himself into a corner? No. Some laws have been done away with of necessity, others still remain. You simply confuse which is which according to your false gospel. I am not the one who has to ignore certain scriptures according to what I believe.

Offline Amo

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Re: What are the words of the ‘first covenant’?
« Reply #78 on: Sat Dec 21, 2019 - 14:41:15 »
Amo wrote:
I admit it took some thinking to conjure up that statement.   The laws of right and wrong are instilled in all mankind.   Those that don't have the letter of the laws are still judged by those instilled at birth.  Those that were under the Sinai covenant would have been judged by the laws of that covenant.  All mankind are now judged by the Royal Law of Love and not by the works of the laws of the Sinai covenant.  When you learn that truth you will be on the Beam.

I have no intention of learning the gospel according to beam. Now your separating God's commandments from His love again.

Offline Amo

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Re: What are the words of the ‘first covenant’?
« Reply #79 on: Sat Dec 21, 2019 - 14:46:15 »
Amo wrote:
Heaven and Earth passing is a metaphor, a figure of speech.  Again, not one jot.....that means the laws of sacrifice too.  You are shooting yourself in the foot Amo.  (metaphor) :-)  In those verses Jesus didn't say except for the sacrificial laws.  He made no exceptions now did He?

Like I said, you are the one who basically preaches we still need to keep the 613 not me. You are the one who insists He is referring to all of them not me. Why would the earth passing be a metaphor when the bible predicts this as an actual literal event at Christ's return?

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Re: What are the words of the ‘first covenant’?
« Reply #80 on: Sat Dec 21, 2019 - 14:53:24 »
Amo wrote:I can say that Heaven and Earth passing is a metaphor because of the qualifier Jesus used after that statement.  TILL all is fulfilled is the qualifier.  Question: did Jesus leave something He came to do undone???  What did Jesus come to do Amo?  He came to fulfil the law and prophets.  You are telling us that He didn't do what He came to do.  How confusing you are brother.

You are obviously not familiar with all the prophecies in the old testament which apply to our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. Nor the prophecies of Jesus or His apostles of the NT in relation to His return and the passing away of the present heaven or earth. To the contrary, you no doubt simply ignore or reject them because they do not fit into your gospel as so much other scripture does not as well. 

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Re: What are the words of the ‘first covenant’?
« Reply #81 on: Sat Dec 21, 2019 - 15:00:15 »
Amo wrote:I can say that Heaven and Earth passing is a metaphor because of the qualifier Jesus used after that statement.  TILL all is fulfilled is the qualifier.  Question: did Jesus leave something He came to do undone???  What did Jesus come to do Amo?  He came to fulfil the law and prophets.  You are telling us that He didn't do what He came to do.  How confusing you are brother.

One example will do to reveal the short sightedness of you false gospel. Though several other examples may be provided. You simply do not have or cannot accept the big picture because it contradicts your false gospel. The prophecies and Jesus' purpose reach much deeper and further than the deception you have accepted allow for.

Mat 13:36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field. 37 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man; 38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; 39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels. 40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. 41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; 42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

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Re: What are the words of the ‘first covenant’?
« Reply #82 on: Sat Dec 21, 2019 - 15:34:55 »
Amo wrote:What does all of that have to do with the subject?  I will comment that I do not believe that Jesus was ever an Angel.   This is just another Ellen lie.

As usual, just ignore the answer to your question, if it doesn't fit into your false gospel. It was believed and taught long before EGW existed. Your ignorance of this does not equal EGW created it. Emphasis in the following quote is mine.


FIRST APOLOGY OF JUSTIN MARTYR
[A.D. 110-165.]

CHAPTER 63
 
HOW GOD APPEARED TO MOSES

And all the Jews even now teach that the nameless God spake to Moses; whence the Spirit of prophecy, accusing them by Isaiah the prophet mentioned above, said “The ox knoweth his owner, and the ass his master’s crib; but Israel doth not know Me, and My people do not understand.” And Jesus the Christ, because the Jews knew not what the Father was, and what the Son, in like manner accused them; and Himself said, “No one knoweth the Father, but the Son; nor the Son, but the Father, and they to whom the Son revealeth Him.” Now the Word of God is His Son, as we have before said. And He is called Angel and Apostle; for He declares whatever we ought to know, and is sent forth to declare whatever is revealed; as our Lord Himself says, “He that heareth Me, heareth Him that sent Me.” From the writings of Moses also this will be manifest; for thus it is written in them, “And the Angel of God spake to Moses, in a flame of fire out of the bush, and said, I am that I am, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, the God of Jacob, the God of thy fathers; go down into Egypt, and bring forth My people.” And if you wish to learn what follows, you can do so from the same writings; for it is impossible to relate the whole here. But so much is written for the sake of proving that Jesus the Christ is the Son of God and His Apostle, being of old the Word, and appearing sometimes in the form of fire, and sometimes in the likeness of angels; but now, by the will of God, having become man for the human race, He endured all the sufferings which the devils instigated the senseless Jews to inflict upon Him; who, though they have it expressly affirmed in the writings of Moses, “And the angel of God spake to Moses in a flame of fire in a bush, and said, I am that I am, the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob,” yet maintain that He who said this was the Father and Creator of the universe. Whence also the Spirit of prophecy rebukes them, and says, “Israel doth not know Me, my people have not understood Me.” And again, Jesus, as we have already shown, while He was with them, said, “No one knoweth the Father, but the Son; nor the Son but the Father, and those to whom the Son will reveal Him.” The Jews, accordingly, being throughout of opinion that it was the Father of the universe who spake to Moses, though He who spake to him was indeed the Son of God, who is called both Angel and Apostle, are justly charged, both by the Spirit of prophecy and by Christ Himself, with knowing neither the Father nor the Son. For they who affirm that the Son is the Father, are proved neither to have become acquainted with the Father, nor to know that the Father of the universe has a Son; who also, being the first-begotten Word of God, is even God. And of old He appeared in the shape of fire and in the likeness of an angel to Moses and to the other prophets; but now in the times of your reign, having, as we before said, become Man by a virgin, according to the counsel of the Father, for the salvation of those who believe on Him, He endured both to be set at nought and to suffer, that by dying and rising again He might conquer death. And that which was said out of the bush to Moses, “I am that I am, the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, and the God of your fathers,” this signified that they, even though dead, are yet in existence, and are men belonging to Christ Himself. For they were the first of all men to busy themselves in the search after God; Abraham being the father of Isaac, and Isaac of Jacob, as Moses wrote.

Offline 4WD

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Re: What are the words of the ‘first covenant’?
« Reply #83 on: Sat Dec 21, 2019 - 19:57:39 »
He was also talking about the ten commandments, thus the reference to commandments. After which He addressed two of the ten in expounding upon their increased spiritual significance during the new covenant era, not any decreased significance.
I repeat:
In Jesus' reference to the law and the prophets, he is talking about the law, the first five books of the Bible, the Pentateuch,  and the books of prophecy in the Old Testament.  It was a Jewish reference to the Old Testament.

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Re: What are the words of the ‘first covenant’?
« Reply #84 on: Sun Dec 22, 2019 - 09:30:38 »
I repeat:

Yes He was talking about the law and the prophets referred to as the Pentateuch, and more. The writings of the prophets go much further than the first five books. The Pentateuch however, is not the commandments. The commandments are found within the Pentateuch, but the first five books are not referred to as the commandments. When our Lord brought up the commandments, He was being more specific than a reference to the first five books. The fact that Jesus came to fulfill the law and the prophets, did not mean that the commandments would be changed. To the contrary, they would not change in the slightest. Some contend that our Lord was referring to all the statutes and commandments given to literal Israel of the old covenant, others more specifically the ten commandments. If Jesus was referring to all the laws given to literal Israel, I guess He did not realize at the time that His sacrifice would put an end to the sanctuary and its services, the laws and regulations of which compose a large segment of the very laws He was saying would never change. I don't think that is ver likely. He Himself told the woman at the well that new covenant worshipers would no longer need to worship at the temple in Jerusalem(Jn 4:20-24), and the Israelites that their temple was left unto them desolate(Mt 23:38, Lk 13:35), and the apostles that their temple would be destroyed(Mt 24:2, Mk 13:2, Lk 21:6).


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Re: What are the words of the ‘first covenant’?
« Reply #85 on: Sun Dec 22, 2019 - 13:43:48 »
Yes He was talking about the law and the prophets referred to as the Pentateuch, and more. .....
It is pretty clear that you do not know what you are talking about.  But Merry Christmas to you anyway.

Offline Amo

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Re: What are the words of the ‘first covenant’?
« Reply #86 on: Sun Dec 22, 2019 - 15:22:34 »
It is pretty clear that you do not know what you are talking about.  But Merry Christmas to you anyway.

Of course, a 4WD said so, has never been anything more than a 4WD said so. I gave my reasons for the verses under question meaning more than just a vague statement concerning the entirety of the Pentateuch.
You are of course free to back your statement up and give your reasons for thinking that is all it is, or otherwise. Merry Christmas to you as well.

Offline Michael2012

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Re: What are the words of the ‘first covenant’?
« Reply #87 on: Mon Dec 30, 2019 - 01:47:27 »
Quote from: Michael
As I said the old covenant refers to that which God made with the children of Israel in the day when He took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt. So, the old covenant and the covenant laws was not with the rest of the world but with the descendants of Israel (Jacob).

There is now a New Covenant, which had replaced that Covenant God made with the children of Israel at the time of Moses. The mediator of the New Covenant isn't Moses, but is Jesus Christ. Would you like us to discuss the two Covenants?
I like to discuss anything relating to God's Word.  Understanding the covenants, limited as it is, was why I broke the bonds with the SDA church.  I was never taught anything about the covenants growing up and when the Adventists approached me if I believed in the ten commandments, of course, I said yes.  Then they asked me about the fourth commandment and I answered by telling them I faithfully attended church every Sunday.  Their retort response was that the fourth commandment tells us the day to worship is Saturday.  At that time I bought in hook, line and sinker.  Indoctrination came next and once indoctrinated it is very hard to see anything differently.   I pray that those who rely on the laws of the old covenant for their salvation will join in and grasp the real truth.  Without knowledge of the two covenants it is very hard to understand what Jesus really did for mankind.   The SDA prophet wrote:  It means eternal salvation to keep the Sabbath holy unto the Lord. God says: "Them that honor Me I will honor." {6T 356.4}   One of the indoctrinations is believing the SDA prophet.

Before Christ came, Israel and God were in covenant, that is, that God made with them when God took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt. What was that covenant about?

Exodus 19:1 In the third month, when the children of Israel were gone forth out of the land of Egypt, the same day came they into the wilderness of Sinai.

2 For they were departed from Rephidim, and were come to the desert of Sinai, and had pitched in the wilderness; and there Israel camped before the mount.

3 And Moses went up unto God, and the Lord called unto him out of the mountain, saying, Thus shalt thou say to the house of Jacob, and tell the children of Israel;

4 Ye have seen what I did unto the Egyptians, and how I bare you on eagles' wings, and brought you unto myself.

5 Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:

6 And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.


So, by that alone, we somehow get the idea what the Law (that is, the commandments, statutes, ordinances, regulations, levitical priesthood) was all about. It was so that Israel may be established to be a holy nation and a kingdom of priest by the keeping of them.

But concerning this covenant, here's what scriptures says:

Hebrews 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.

8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.

10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.

12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.


God had replaced the former covenant whose mediator was Moses, with a new covenant whose mediator is Jesus Christ.

The question now is why God replaced the former covenant.