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Offline Hobie

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What happens when you die
« on: Mon Apr 29, 2019 - 03:06:42 »
Here is a great explanation and well put together understanding of this topic:

Premise

Traditionally most people believe that there is a ghost-like “spirit” inside of our bodies, and when we die, this spirit floats away somewhere, preferably heaven.

I will show that the Bible actually does not support this theory.  In fact, according to the Bible there is no spirit inside of us at all.  We exist only as mortal bodies, made from dust having been given the breath of life.  And it is this “breath of life” that is confused with, or interpreted as, a “spirit”.   
 

What Happens When We Die

Scripture says it plainly. 

Genesis 3:19

By the sweat of your face you shall eat bread, till you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken; for you are dust, and to dust you shall return.”

Job 7:21

Why then do you not pardon my transgression and take away my iniquity?  For now I will lie down in the dust; And You will seek me, but I will not be."

Job 14:10:12

But man dies and lies prostrate man expires, and where is he? "As water evaporates from the sea, and a river becomes parched and dried up, so man lies down and does not rise. Until the heavens are no longer, he will not awake nor be aroused out of his sleep.

Psalm 115:17

The dead praise not the Lord, neither any that go down into silence.

Psalm 146:4

When his breath departs, he returns to the earth; on that very day his plans perish.

Ecclesiastes 3:19-20

For what happens to the children of man and what happens to the beasts is the same; as one dies, so dies the other. They all have the same breath, and man has no advantage over the beasts, for all is vanity. All go to one place. All are from the dust, and to dust all return.

Ecclesiastes 9:5

For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing

Over and over again the Bible says that the dead know nothing.  These are only a few examples.  The dead don’t think.  They don’t praise the Lord.  They have no consciousness.  They return to the earth, as dust.  Their plans perish and they cease to exist.  Ecclesiastes 3 even tells us that man has no advantage over the beasts.  All go to one place, which is dust.
 

Death Compared to Sleep

Psalms 13:3

Consider and answer me, O LORD my God; Enlighten my eyes, or I will sleep the sleep of death,

1 Kings 2:10

Then David slept with his fathers and was buried in the city of David.

When Lazarus died, Jesus said he was sleeping.   

John 11:11-14

After he had said this, he went on to tell them, “Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep; but I am going there to wake him up.”  12 His disciples replied, “Lord, if he sleeps, he will get better.” 13 Jesus had been speaking of his death, but his disciples thought he meant natural sleep. 14 So then he told them plainly, “Lazarus is dead


Why would Jesus compare Lazarus’ death to “sleep” if Lazarus’ spirit has ascended into heaven?  And why was there no mention of his spirit leaving his body?   

Matthew 9:24

He said, "Leave; for the girl has not died, but is asleep." And they began laughing at Him.

Daniel 12:2

Many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt.

Daniel was told he would “rest” until the resurrection.   

Daniel 12:13

As for you, go your way till the end. You will rest, and then at the end of the days you will rise to receive your allotted inheritance.”

If Daniel’s spirit was to go to heaven after death, then why was he told that he would rest?  Why did the angel not say instead, I’ll see you in heaven soon, or something to that effect?  It’s because Daniel wasn’t going to heaven.  He was going to the dust of the earth.  Daniel is now dead.  He is not in heaven.  He’s dead in the dust of the earth and on the day of the resurrection, he will rise, along with the rest of us.


What Happens When we are Resurrected

The resurrection, as Paul describes it, actually also proves that we have no spirit in us that goes to heaven when we die.   

Imagine if we did have a spirit.  We would fly up to heaven and we would do whatever we do in heaven.  Praise the Lord, play Frisbee, eat BBQ chicken.  No matter how you envision an existence in heaven, it would require at the very least that we have a consciousness, a thought process and a free will to continue to make decisions.  All of this would contradict the old testament verses above.


It would also contradict the new testament book of 1 Corinthians, because according to Paul this life in a spiritual body, which we imagine in heaven, does not come to us until the very last day, when we are resurrected.

1 Corinthians 15:42

So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable; 43 it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; 44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.

1 Corinthians 15:46

The spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and after that the spiritual. 47 The first man was of the dust of the earth; the second man is of heaven.

Paul clearly states that we are created with a natural body, not a spiritual body.  We will be transformed into a spiritual body upon the resurrection.  “The spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and after that the spiritual”.  In other words, when God created us, we were not given spiritual bodies, only natural bodies, but we would receive spiritual bodies later, upon the resurrection.

Our bodies are sewn natural, raised spiritual.  This is the point of the resurrection, to make us spiritual so that we can be immortal.  So if you believe that we already have immortal spirits that leave our bodies when we die, you have a conundrum.

 

The Spiritual Conundrum

Imagine the traditional teaching, where we have a spirit and we go to heaven as a spirit when we die.  Then please tell me, what is the point of the resurrection?   

If we are already in heaven, as immortal spirits, then why would we need to be transformed into spirits on the last day?  If it is so, then when our bodies on earth are transformed into spirits, do we end up with two spirits?  The one in heaven and the one on earth?  Would both spirits have their own separate consciousness?  Do our spirits in heaven then join our old bodies which have been transformed?  Would we then be a spirit within a spirit?  Two spirits?  What nonsense!   

If we’re being transformed into spirits, then we can not already be spirits, otherwise what would be the point?  The point of the resurrection is to make us immortal.  To make us spirits.  This would be entirely nonsensical if we are already living as spirits in heaven, and this is how Paul’s description of the resurrection proves that we do not have a spirit inside of us that continues to live after death.


Soul (Nephesh)

To add to the confusion, in addition to the obvious body and the presumed spirit, we also supposedly possess a “soul”.  What is a soul?  You are a soul.

Genesis 2:7

And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Notice in the verse above that man became a living soul.  He was not given a soul.  He became a soul.  In other words, we do not have souls, we are souls.

The word soul in this verse was originally written in Hebrew as לְנֶ֥פֶשׁ which is transliterated as nephesh.  Strong’s concordance defines nephesh as “a soul, living being, life, self, person, desire, passion, appetite, emotion”.  With this definition in mind, the last part of Genesis 2:7 can be paraphrased as, for example “man became alive” or “man became an individual”.  It is in fact the very moment when man gained his self awareness and free will.

The same word occurs 754 times in the old testament, so we can’t look at all examples but let’s look at one more.

Genesis 1:20

And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life (Nephesh), and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.

Here the King James Bible translates it as “creature that hath life”.  Remember, this is the same word that was translated as “soul” in Genesis 2:7.  The more examples you look at the more obvious it becomes that when the word “soul” is used in scripture it refers simply to “a living creature”.

So keep in mind the true meaning of the word Nephesh, which can be translated as soul, living creature, person or individual, when you read verses such as…

Ezekiel 18:20

The soul who sins shall die.

The living creature who sins…

The person who sins…

The individual who sins…
 

The Spirit (Ruach)

On the flip side, there are a number of verses that can be used to support the notion that we all have a spirit inside of us that continues to live after the body dies.  And at first glance, some of these verses are very convincing.   

For example

Ecclesiastes 12:7

the dust returns to the ground it came from, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.

2 Corinthians 5:8

Yes, we are of good courage, and we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord.

James 2:26

For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so also faith apart from works is dead.

Obviously, the key to understanding such verses is understanding the meaning of “spirit”.  As it turns out, in these examples, the word spirit refers to the breath of God, which is life.

Ecclesiastes 12:7

the dust returns to the ground it came from, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.

This verse seems to imply that our spirit goes up to heaven when we die, but actually “spirit” here refers to the life that God breathed into man in Genesis 2:7.  It’s the life that returns to God, because the life came from God.

Genesis 2:7

And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

The word used through the old testament for spirit is the Hebrew word Ruach ר֫וּחַ, which can also be translated as “breath or wind”.   In fact, this is how it is translated in various other verses including Genesis 7:15 and Psalm 104:29.

Genesis 7:15

Pairs of all creatures that have the breath of life (ruach) in them came to Noah and entered the ark.

Psalm 104:29

When you hide your face, they are terrified; when you take away their breath (ruach), they die and return to the dust.

When God gave man life, it was his breath/wind/spirit which God gave.  The spirit of God is life.  And it’s this spirit, this life, that returns to God in Ecclesiastes 12:7

Ecclesiastes 12:7

the dust returns to the ground it came from, and the spirit (ruach – life / breath) returns to God who gave it.

Other verses clearly explain that it is the spirit of God, or the breath of God, that has given us life.   

John 6:63 says The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you--they are full of the Spirit and life.

Job 33:4 says The spirit of God hath made me, and the breath of the Almighty hath given me life.


The many Hebrew names of God in fact include the word Ruach each time.


English Name                     |          Hebrew Name

The Spirit of God                |       Ruach Elohim
 
The Spirit of the Lord          |       Ruach Adonai
 
The Holy Spirit                   |       Ruach Hakkodesh
 
The Spirit of the Lord God   |       Ruach Adonai Elohim
 
The Spirit of God                |       Ruach-El
 

Clearly, the word Ruach does not refer to a ghostly spirit that lives inside each of us, but rather the breath of life which came from God himself, and which is a part of God himself.  Let’s look at the verse again.

Ecclesiastes 12:7

the dust returns to the ground it came from, and the spirit (breath of life) returns to God who gave it.

And now compare that to the verse that describes man becoming a living creature.

Genesis 2:7

And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

In other words, God gave his living spirit (Ruach) and man became a living soul (Nephesh).   
 

When Jesus Died

When this discussion of a spirit comes up people often point to references around Jesus’ death on the cross as proof that his “spirit” left him.   

Luke 23:46

And when Jesus had cried out with a loud voice, He said, "Father, 'into Your hands I commit My spirit.'" Having said this, He breathed His last.

Matthew 27:50

And Jesus cried out again with a loud voice, and yielded up His spirit.

John 19:30

So when Jesus had received the sour wine, He said, "It is finished!" And bowing His head, He gave up His spirit.


I used to think, as most people do, that each reference to “spirit” in these verses referred to a conscious ghostly entity that left Jesus’ body and floated up to heaven (or hell, depending on who you ask) where Jesus continued to “live”.  However, if we look at the original Greek word used we get an entirely different picture.

Remember, the Hebrew word translated as spirit in the old testament is Ruach and it means “breath” or “wind”.  In the new testament the original text is Greek and in each of these three verses above, the word translated as spirit is the Greek word “Pneuma”.  Pneuma means “wind, breath, spirit”.  It has the exact same meaning as the Hebrew Ruach.  Go figure.

Also remember that in Genesis 2:7 God created man and gave man the breath of life.  That god given breath is not just a simple breath that we take for granted; it is life.  So if we understand that the Greek meaning of the word “pneuma” is actually a reference to life itself which God breathed into us, these verses suddenly take on a whole new meaning.

 

Luke 23:46

And when Jesus had cried out with a loud voice, He said, "Father, 'into Your hands I commit My spirit life.'" Having said this, He breathed His last.

Matthew 27:50

And Jesus cried out again with a loud voice, and yielded up His spirit life.

John 19:30

So when Jesus had received the sour wine, He said, "It is finished!" And bowing His head, He gave up His spirit life.


Of course, looking back at it now, it seems so obvious that Jesus did not continue to live in spirit form after his death, because if that were the case he wouldn’t have really died.  But he actually did die.  He really died.  The breath of life left him and he died.

There is literally no Bible verse that claims there is a ghostly spirit inside each of us that lives on after death.  In fact, quite the opposite.  All indications are that when we die, we return to the dust of the earth, without any consciousness, knowing nothing and realizing nothing.  And it’s only at the resurrection, when the breath of God returns to us, that we become spiritual creatures.


Further Evidence

Acts 2:29

Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day”

Acts 2:34

For David is not ascended into the heavens

John 5:28-29

Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth

John 3:13

And no man has ascended up to heaven
« Last Edit: Mon Apr 29, 2019 - 03:09:43 by Hobie »

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What happens when you die
« on: Mon Apr 29, 2019 - 03:06:42 »

Offline 4WD

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Re: What happens when you die
« Reply #1 on: Mon Apr 29, 2019 - 06:00:20 »
I would hate to have to live with that much confusion about life, death and God.

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Re: What happens when you die
« Reply #1 on: Mon Apr 29, 2019 - 06:00:20 »

Offline Alan

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Re: What happens when you die
« Reply #2 on: Mon Apr 29, 2019 - 08:25:54 »
I would hate to have to live with that much confusion about life, death and God.


Amen!

Offline beam

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Re: What happens when you die
« Reply #3 on: Mon Apr 29, 2019 - 08:26:54 »
I would hate to have to live with that much confusion about life, death and God.
Ditto 4WD.  All I really have to know is that Jesus will take care of me.  The promises are if I believe in Him I won't even be judged.  Jn5:24  24 “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.   That verse from the mouth of Jesus seems to indicate that I will cross over from one life to another.  To me, that doesn't take thousands of years or until Jesus comes in the clouds.

What happens when you die?   You quit breathing. :-)

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Re: What happens when you die
« Reply #3 on: Mon Apr 29, 2019 - 08:26:54 »

Offline Amo

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Re: What happens when you die
« Reply #4 on: Sat May 11, 2019 - 12:17:39 »
Ditto 4WD.  All I really have to know is that Jesus will take care of me.  The promises are if I believe in Him I won't even be judged.  Jn5:24  24 “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.   That verse from the mouth of Jesus seems to indicate that I will cross over from one life to another.  To me, that doesn't take thousands of years or until Jesus comes in the clouds.

What happens when you die?   You quit breathing. :-)

It isn't really that complicated. You could have just continued from the verse you quoted and some simple clarity would be provided by Jesus Himself.

Joh 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. 25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live. 26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself; 27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man. 28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

It of course becomes increasingly complicated if or when we do not want to go where Jesus' words lead.

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Re: What happens when you die
« Reply #4 on: Sat May 11, 2019 - 12:17:39 »



Offline 4WD

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Re: What happens when you die
« Reply #5 on: Sat May 11, 2019 - 14:07:48 »
It isn't really that complicated. You could have just continued from the verse you quoted and some simple clarity would be provided by Jesus Himself.

Joh 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. 25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live. 26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself; 27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man. 28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

It of course becomes increasingly complicated if or when we do not want to go where Jesus' words lead.
There are two resurrections spoken of in those verses. The first, given in verses 24-25, is the resurrection of the spirit in regeneration.  We know that because Jesus states, "The hour is coming, and now is,....."  And by the way those two verses by Jesus shoot down the notion that the spiritually dead cannot hear and respond. And as a corollary, it shoots down the very concept of total depravity [though not necessarily original sin].

The second, given in verses 28-29, is the resurrection at the end of the age when Christ returns.

And by the way again, these two resurrections line up perfectly with the two resurrections spoken of by John in Revelation 20:1-5.
« Last Edit: Sat May 11, 2019 - 14:10:14 by 4WD »

Offline Amo

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Re: What happens when you die
« Reply #6 on: Sat May 11, 2019 - 15:20:20 »
There are two resurrections spoken of in those verses. The first, given in verses 24-25, is the resurrection of the spirit in regeneration.  We know that because Jesus states, "The hour is coming, and now is,....."  And by the way those two verses by Jesus shoot down the notion that the spiritually dead cannot hear and respond. And as a corollary, it shoots down the very concept of total depravity [though not necessarily original sin].

The second, given in verses 28-29, is the resurrection at the end of the age when Christ returns.

And by the way again, these two resurrections line up perfectly with the two resurrections spoken of by John in Revelation 20:1-5.

You can make it mean that if you so choose, but it does not have to, nor does that train of thought line up with other scriptures addressing the resurrection, or really even the one you are referring to. Jesus specified the two as the resurrection of life and the resurrection of damnation. You are adding a resurrection of your own design in the place of what Jesus actually said.  Jesus raised the dead while here on earth. They heard the voice of the Son of God and they came forth from the tomb and death. That is why He could say the time is coming and now is, not because He meant some type of resurrection He did not address at all in the verses under examination. Jesus also says elsewhere that He will raise the dead at the last day, this obviously is not a reference to spiritual resurrection now. It is concerning an hour which is coming, concerning the resurrection of life and damnation, neither of which is the spiritual resurrection you are referring to mentioned by Paul I do believe.

Joh 6:38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. 39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. 40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day. 41 The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, I am the bread which came down from heaven. 42 And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven? 43 Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves. 44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.................
54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.


When Jesus raised Lazarus, Martha's brother, Martha expressed her faith in the resurrection of the last day, and Jesus did not correct her. To the contrary, He told her that He was the resurrection and the life, and then fulfilled His statement that the resurrection is coming and now is, by raising Lazarus.

Joh 11:20 Then Martha, as soon as she heard that Jesus was coming, went and met him: but Mary sat still in the house. 21 Then said Martha unto Jesus, Lord, if thou hadst been here, my brother had not died. 22 But I know, that even now, whatsoever thou wilt ask of God, God will give it thee. 23 Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again. 24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day. 25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: 26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this? 27 She saith unto him, Yea, Lord: I believe that thou art the Christ, the Son of God, which should come into the world....................................... ............................................ ..........
38 Jesus therefore again groaning in himself cometh to the grave. It was a cave, and a stone lay upon it. 39 Jesus said, Take ye away the stone. Martha, the sister of him that was dead, saith unto him, Lord, by this time he stinketh: for he hath been dead four days. 40 Jesus saith unto her, Said I not unto thee, that, if thou wouldest believe, thou shouldest see the glory of God? 41 Then they took away the stone from the place where the dead was laid. And Jesus lifted up his eyes, and said, Father, I thank thee that thou hast heard me. 42 And I knew that thou hearest me always: but because of the people which stand by I said it, that they may believe that thou hast sent me. 43 And when he thus had spoken, he cried with a loud voice, Lazarus, come forth. 44 And he that was dead came forth, bound hand and foot with graveclothes: and his face was bound about with a napkin. Jesus saith unto them, Loose him, and let him go. 45 Then many of the Jews which came to Mary, and had seen the things which Jesus did, believed on him.


1 Cor 15:49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. 50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

« Last Edit: Sat May 11, 2019 - 15:23:08 by Amo »

Offline beam

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Re: What happens when you die
« Reply #7 on: Sat May 11, 2019 - 17:03:41 »
As I said before I have claimed the promise of eternal life with Jesus.  When it happens is up to Him.  It shouldn't be a great concern, but it seems like JWS and SDAs like to make big statements trying to prove everyone else is wrong and all should join their ranks because they have the real truth.   Even if they are correct on one point it certainly wouldn't entice me to join their ranks


I would like to make one observation found in Luke where Jesus is telling the thief on the Cross that because of his belief he would be in paradise that very day.  Laying dead six foot under really doesn't sound like Paradise now does it?



Luke 23:43
Jesus answered him, “Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise.”

Offline 4WD

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Re: What happens when you die
« Reply #8 on: Sun May 12, 2019 - 06:52:30 »
When Jesus raised Lazarus, Martha's brother, Martha expressed her faith in the resurrection of the last day, and Jesus did not correct her. To the contrary, He told her that He was the resurrection and the life, and then fulfilled His statement that the resurrection is coming and now is, by raising Lazarus.
The raising of Lazarus has nothing to do with "the resurrection".  The resurrection when Jesus returns again is not about raising the dead body to life again.  Even the only mention of Jesus' "resurrection" in the gospels, in Matthew 27:53,  uses the Greek word ἔγερσις [egersis] which is different from the Greek word ἀνάστασις [anastasis] that is used when referring to the resurrection at the end of the age or of Jesus' resurrection.  I am convinced, against what most others state, that the resurrection of Jesus was not His being raised bodily from the tomb but rather His spiritual return to the right hand of God.

Lazarus and others may have been raised from the dead, egersis, but they have yet to experience the resurrection, anastasis.  Those are two different things entirely.

Offline Amo

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Re: What happens when you die
« Reply #9 on: Mon May 13, 2019 - 11:36:38 »
As I said before I have claimed the promise of eternal life with Jesus.  When it happens is up to Him.  It shouldn't be a great concern, but it seems like JWS and SDAs like to make big statements trying to prove everyone else is wrong and all should join their ranks because they have the real truth.   Even if they are correct on one point it certainly wouldn't entice me to join their ranks


I would like to make one observation found in Luke where Jesus is telling the thief on the Cross that because of his belief he would be in paradise that very day.  Laying dead six foot under really doesn't sound like Paradise now does it?



Luke 23:43
Jesus answered him, “Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise.”

Joh 20:13 And they say unto her, Woman, why weepest thou? She saith unto them, Because they have taken away my Lord, and I know not where they have laid him. 14 And when she had thus said, she turned herself back, and saw Jesus standing, and knew not that it was Jesus. 15 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, why weepest thou? whom seekest thou? She, supposing him to be the gardener, saith unto him, Sir, if thou have borne him hence, tell me where thou hast laid him, and I will take him away. 16 Jesus saith unto her, Mary. She turned herself, and saith unto him, Rabboni; which is to say, Master. 17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

Just exactly what paradise was the their in with Jesus that day, since He had not ascended to the father yet on Sunday? A misplaced comma, doctrine does not make. Examining all scriptural testimony pertaining to doctrine and or biblically recorded events, is essential to proper understanding and rightly dividing truth.

Offline Amo

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Re: What happens when you die
« Reply #10 on: Mon May 13, 2019 - 11:45:27 »
The raising of Lazarus has nothing to do with "the resurrection".  The resurrection when Jesus returns again is not about raising the dead body to life again.  Even the only mention of Jesus' "resurrection" in the gospels, in Matthew 27:53,  uses the Greek word ἔγερσις [egersis] which is different from the Greek word ἀνάστασις [anastasis] that is used when referring to the resurrection at the end of the age or of Jesus' resurrection.  I am convinced, against what most others state, that the resurrection of Jesus was not His being raised bodily from the tomb but rather His spiritual return to the right hand of God.

Lazarus and others may have been raised from the dead, egersis, but they have yet to experience the resurrection, anastasis.  Those are two different things entirely.

1 Cor. 15:12 Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead? 13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen: 14 And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain. 15 Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not. 16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised: 17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins. 18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished. 19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable. 20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. 21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. 24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. 28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

Your faith is vain.

Offline 4WD

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Re: What happens when you die
« Reply #11 on: Mon May 13, 2019 - 12:10:34 »
Amo,

There is  nothing in what you posted that disagrees with anything I said in my Reply #8.  But I will note that you seem not to understand the difference between the raising of the dead and the resurrection.  That is sad indeed. It seems also that you don't understand much of anything in 1 Corinthians 15.  And that is sad also.


1Co 15:35  But someone will ask, "How are the dead raised? With what kind of body do they come?"

1Co 15:44  It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body.
« Last Edit: Mon May 13, 2019 - 12:13:39 by 4WD »

Offline Amo

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Re: What happens when you die
« Reply #12 on: Thu May 16, 2019 - 11:48:59 »
Amo,

There is  nothing in what you posted that disagrees with anything I said in my Reply #8.  But I will note that you seem not to understand the difference between the raising of the dead and the resurrection.  That is sad indeed. It seems also that you don't understand much of anything in 1 Corinthians 15.  And that is sad also.


1Co 15:35  But someone will ask, "How are the dead raised? With what kind of body do they come?"

1Co 15:44  It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body.


Yea, that is the ticket. Raising the dead, and resurrection are two different things. Jesus was resurrected with a real physical and touchable spiritual body. Just like all the saved will be. Why limit scripture to your own understanding, which scripture itself denies?




Offline 4WD

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Re: What happens when you die
« Reply #13 on: Thu May 16, 2019 - 13:13:44 »
Yea, that is the ticket. Raising the dead, and resurrection are two different things. Jesus was resurrected with a real physical and touchable spiritual body. Just like all the saved will be. Why limit scripture to your own understanding, which scripture itself denies?
Matthew 27 speaks about Jesus coming out of the tombs after His resurrection:  Mat 27:53  and coming out of the tombs after his resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many. But it is interesting that the Greek word used there is not ἀνάστασις [anastasis] which is used everywhere else, but rather ἔγερσις [egersis] which is from the same base word used to describe what many thought about John the Baptist: Mat 14:2  and he said to his servants, "This is John the Baptist. He has been raised from the dead; that is why these miraculous powers are at work in him." ; or when Jesus worked miracles in raising the dead back to life: Mat 11:4  And Jesus answered them, "Go and tell John what you hear and see: Mat 11:5  the blind receive their sight and the lame walk, lepers are cleansed and the deaf hear, and the dead are raised up, and the poor have good news preached to them.

I think it is not happenstance that the Holy Spirit spoke of Jesus being raised from the tombs, i.e., brought back to life, using words different from that when speaking of Jesus' resurrection or the resurrection at the end of the age.

It is simply your assumption, not Scripture, that says that "Jesus was resurrected with a real physical and touchable spiritual body."  That is particularly the case when Paul specifically differentiates between a real physical [natural] body and the resurrection spiritual body.

1Co 15:44  It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.

1Cor 15:50  I tell you this, brothers: flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.


But you are certainly free to think whatever you wish;  I will stick to the Bible.


Offline th1b.taylor

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Re: What happens when you die
« Reply #14 on: Thu May 16, 2019 - 17:40:38 »
You have made the single most profound error that any man can make. Lost Man's method of exhibiting his and/or her ignorance of working with the Word of YHWH.  I pray you are a Babe in the Christ and are not found among those not listed in the Book of Life.

The scriptures were not, before the first century, divided into chapters and verses but were of one continuous flow from beginning to end.

This well intentioned, I feel certain, division of the Bible is both one of the greatest and, yet, the most damaging actions ever undertaken by mankind.

To begin, you have ripped a collection of sundry verses out of their major, minor and their lessor context and whipped them together in some sort of commercial mixer and have produced a salad of no flavor without meaning.

One must never forget the verses of the paragraph because this is where the lessor context is found that lends the first possible clue to the importance of the verse.  This clue will always drive the True Seeker of Truth to see how the context of the Book is Bent by this verse and for he or she that seeks after YHWH and Yashuah ha'Mashiah through
the leading of Ruah will find themselves reading the Bible through to dig the Precious Nuggets out that all the verses hold but are hidden until we break out the hand tools and mine the Word.

Offline 4WD

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Re: What happens when you die
« Reply #15 on: Fri May 17, 2019 - 06:13:01 »
You have made the single most profound error that any man can make.
If you intended that for me, please show me what my single most profound error is.

Offline Amo

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Re: What happens when you die
« Reply #16 on: Sat May 18, 2019 - 18:02:38 »
As I said before I have claimed the promise of eternal life with Jesus.  When it happens is up to Him.  It shouldn't be a great concern, but it seems like JWS and SDAs like to make big statements trying to prove everyone else is wrong and all should join their ranks because they have the real truth.   Even if they are correct on one point it certainly wouldn't entice me to join their ranks


I would like to make one observation found in Luke where Jesus is telling the thief on the Cross that because of his belief he would be in paradise that very day.  Laying dead six foot under really doesn't sound like Paradise now does it?



Luke 23:43
Jesus answered him, “Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise.”

Don't you mean rejoin their ranks? Weren't you an SDA for forty years? As such, didn't you know that what they believe about the resurrection was believed by many Christians before them, and is still believed by many beside them today? If not, that seems somewhat strange. You must have been a very sheltered SDA. Surely as an ex SDA you have heard the comma in the wrong place argument, and the problem of Jesus not having yet ascended to the Father after His resurrection. Are you sure you were an SDA?

Offline Amo

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Re: What happens when you die
« Reply #17 on: Sat May 18, 2019 - 18:37:19 »
Matthew 27 speaks about Jesus coming out of the tombs after His resurrection:  Mat 27:53  and coming out of the tombs after his resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many. But it is interesting that the Greek word used there is not ἀνάστασις [anastasis] which is used everywhere else, but rather ἔγερσις [egersis] which is from the same base word used to describe what many thought about John the Baptist: Mat 14:2  and he said to his servants, "This is John the Baptist. He has been raised from the dead; that is why these miraculous powers are at work in him." ; or when Jesus worked miracles in raising the dead back to life: Mat 11:4  And Jesus answered them, "Go and tell John what you hear and see: Mat 11:5  the blind receive their sight and the lame walk, lepers are cleansed and the deaf hear, and the dead are raised up, and the poor have good news preached to them.

I think it is not happenstance that the Holy Spirit spoke of Jesus being raised from the tombs, i.e., brought back to life, using words different from that when speaking of Jesus' resurrection or the resurrection at the end of the age.

It is simply your assumption, not Scripture, that says that "Jesus was resurrected with a real physical and touchable spiritual body."  That is particularly the case when Paul specifically differentiates between a real physical [natural] body and the resurrection spiritual body.

1Co 15:44  It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.

1Cor 15:50  I tell you this, brothers: flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.


But you are certainly free to think whatever you wish;  I will stick to the Bible.

To the contrary, the Greek word you are referring to is only used once for resurrection. It is 1454 in the listed Greek words for resurrection defined below. It is like 1815 in that it is only used once for resurrection, and has no suggested figurative application. 386, which is the Greek word for all other reference to the word resurrection in the New Testament, can have the figurative application you suggest. This paints a different picture than the one you are presenting.

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Strong's Greek Lexicon Search Results

Result of search for "386":
386. anastasis an-as'-tas-is from 450; a standing up again, i.e. (literally) a resurrection from death (individual, genitive case or by implication, (its author)), or (figuratively) a (moral) recovery (of spiritual truth):--raised to life again, resurrection, rise from the dead, that should rise, rising again.

Strong's Greek Lexicon Search Results

Result of search for "1454":
1454. egersis eg'-er-sis from 1453; a resurgence (from death):--resurrection.


Strong's Greek Lexicon Search Results

Result of search for "1815":
1815. exanastasis ex-an-as'-tas-is from 1817; a rising from death:--resurrection.

Eze 37:1 The hand of the LORD was upon me, and carried me out in the spirit of the LORD, and set me down in the midst of the valley which was full of bones, 2 And caused me to pass by them round about: and, behold, there were very many in the open valley; and, lo, they were very dry. 3 And he said unto me, Son of man, can these bones live? And I answered, O Lord GOD, thou knowest. 4 Again he said unto me, Prophesy upon these bones, and say unto them, O ye dry bones, hear the word of the LORD. 5 Thus saith the Lord GOD unto these bones; Behold, I will cause breath to enter into you, and ye shall live: 6 And I will lay sinews upon you, and will bring up flesh upon you, and cover you with skin, and put breath in you, and ye shall live; and ye shall know that I am the LORD. 7 So I prophesied as I was commanded: and as I prophesied, there was a noise, and behold a shaking, and the bones came together, bone to his bone. 8 And when I beheld, lo, the sinews and the flesh came up upon them, and the skin covered them above: but there was no breath in them. 9 Then said he unto me, Prophesy unto the wind, prophesy, son of man, and say to the wind, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe upon these slain, that they may live. 10 So I prophesied as he commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they lived, and stood up upon their feet, an exceeding great army. 11 Then he said unto me, Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel: behold, they say, Our bones are dried, and our hope is lost: we are cut off for our parts. 12 Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel. 13 And ye shall know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves, 14 And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the LORD have spoken it, and performed it, saith the LORD.

Offline 4WD

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Re: What happens when you die
« Reply #18 on: Sat May 18, 2019 - 19:16:47 »
To the contrary, the Greek word you are referring to is only used once for resurrection. It is 1454 in the listed Greek words for resurrection defined below. It is like 1815 in that it is only used once for resurrection, and has no suggested figurative application. 386, which is the Greek word for all other reference to the word resurrection in the New Testament, can have the figurative application you suggest. This paints a different picture than the one you are presenting.
Amo, perhaps you missed the point that I made.  When speaking about Jesus combing out of the tomb, the Greek word is not ἀνάστασις [anastasis] which is used everywhere else.  Rather it is ἔγερσις [egersis] which is from the base word ἐγείρω [egeirō] (Strongs 1453) when speaking of the dead being brought back to life, such as John the Baptist and others, e.g., Matt 10:8; 11:5; etc.  See also the descriptions that Jesus Himself gives in Matthew 16:21; 17:23; 20:19; 26:32 and all other similar passages in Mark, Luke and John.  Raised from the dead and resurrection are two different things even when speaking about Jesus.

It is only after Jesus was ascended into heaven to be seated beside the Father that He is spoken of having been resurrected ἀνάστασις [anastasis].  So then Amo, I am spot on, no matter what you might wish to think. Nothing I have said there was figurative in any sense.  The picture you have is not Biblical.
« Last Edit: Sat May 18, 2019 - 19:22:22 by 4WD »

Offline beam

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Re: What happens when you die
« Reply #19 on: Sat May 18, 2019 - 20:05:10 »
Don't you mean rejoin their ranks?

Yes, that would be an appropriate statement. 

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Weren't you an SDA for forty years?

Yes, that would be the truth.

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As such, didn't you know that what they believe about the resurrection was believed by many Christians before them, and is still believed by many beside them today?

Yes, and I too believed.  I bought in hook, line and sinker.  Your denial of the real truth does not make Ellen White squeaky clean.

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If not, that seems somewhat strange. You must have been a very sheltered SDA.

Pure speculation, Amo.

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Surely as an ex SDA you have heard the comma in the wrong place argument,
Yes, I certainly have.  Would Jesus have used the word "today" when it was today when He told the thief he would be in paradise.   He would have used the term "tomorrow" if that would have been when the thief would enter paradise.    The comma is right where it belongs.   

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and the problem of Jesus not having yet ascended to the Father after His resurrection. Are you sure you were an SDA?
You have no idea where Paradise is and whether or not Jesus took the thief there. Jesus' and the thief's bodies may have died on the Cross, but the Spirit within them didn't die.  You might think you have all the answers, but where those answers come from is the worst source.  Ellen has been proven over and over to be a fraud.

Offline Hobie

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Re: What happens when you die
« Reply #20 on: Mon May 27, 2019 - 05:59:10 »
I would hate to have to live with that much confusion about life, death and God.

The Word of God is not confusion, it is truth and shows us the path to Christ and a relationship with Him. Otherwise we may have a issue at the end...

Matthew 7:22-24 King James Version (KJV)

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:

Offline piecrust

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Re: What happens when you die
« Reply #21 on: Mon May 27, 2019 - 18:14:51 »


What happens when you die?   You quit breathing. :-)

Well said beam.