Author Topic: What to wear to church on the Sabbath  (Read 2335 times)

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Offline Ixoyer of Men

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What to wear to church on the Sabbath
« on: Fri Apr 05, 2013 - 02:32:18 »
I live in Seattle, WA, and would like to visit a SDA church.  What is appropriate dress for men to wear to church in the Seattle area?  Should I wear a full suit and tie, tucked-in collared shirt, T-shirt and jeans, ...?  Also, am I allowed to just show up for the service, or should I call and ask ahead of time?

Offline drewhemm

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Re: What to wear to church on the Sabbath
« Reply #1 on: Mon Apr 15, 2013 - 08:00:17 »
Hello,

Anyone is free to visit an Adventist church, absolutely no appointment required! Having said that, depending on the size of the church (especially if the congregation is several hundred or larger), you may want to mention to one of the deacons/deaconesses on the door that you are visiting, so they can give you a proper welcome. In a smaller church, people will quickly spot that you're new and they'll want to welcome you and make you feel at home.

I have no idea what people wear to church in the Seattle area specifically, but in most Adventist churches in North America (and here in Europe too) a full suit should fit in nicely, or a pair of smart trousers (what you guys call 'pants') and a collared shirt if you prefer the 'smart-casual' look.

Something I always keep in mind is that, as I'm going to be in the presence of the ruler of the universe, I should wear attire appropriate for an introduction to an earthly ruler; I would want to look my best if I was invited to Buckingham Palace or the White House. That doesn't mean I always wear a tie, but I make the effort to look presentable. ::smile::

Be sure to let us know how you get on!

Regards

Andrew

Offline chosenone

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Re: What to wear to church on the Sabbath
« Reply #2 on: Mon Apr 15, 2013 - 08:30:06 »
Hello,

Anyone is free to visit an Adventist church, absolutely no appointment required! Having said that, depending on the size of the church (especially if the congregation is several hundred or larger), you may want to mention to one of the deacons/deaconesses on the door that you are visiting, so they can give you a proper welcome. In a smaller church, people will quickly spot that you're new and they'll want to welcome you and make you feel at home.

I have no idea what people wear to church in the Seattle area specifically, but in most Adventist churches in North America (and here in Europe too) a full suit should fit in nicely, or a pair of smart trousers (what you guys call 'pants') and a collared shirt if you prefer the 'smart-casual' look.

Something I always keep in mind is that, as I'm going to be in the presence of the ruler of the universe, I should wear attire appropriate for an introduction to an earthly ruler; I would want to look my best if I was invited to Buckingham Palace or the White House. That doesn't mean I always wear a tie, but I make the effort to look presentable. ::smile::

Be sure to let us know how you get on!

Regards

Andrew

 However we are in His presence all the time, in fact God lives in us..I think that people usually dress up in church for other people.

Offline MeMyself

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Re: What to wear to church on the Sabbath
« Reply #3 on: Mon Apr 15, 2013 - 08:35:07 »
I think "Come just as you are" is a nice way to go. ::smile::

Blessings.

Offline drewhemm

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Re: What to wear to church on the Sabbath
« Reply #4 on: Mon Apr 15, 2013 - 08:51:44 »
However we are in His presence all the time, in fact God lives in us..I think that people usually dress up in church for other people.

As time has progressed, society (especially in the West) has somewhat moved away from smart dress, or anything that might be seen as 'formal'; this shift has made inroads into churches where one can find people wearing shorts, jeans with holes in etc. I can't imagine that in Biblical times anyone dressed in the worst clothes in their possession to go the temple, except maybe the odd prophet, for whom rags were considered the norm. Fifty years ago, men wore suits (or at least a shirt and tie) to go everywhere, my Dad (who is from that generation) only broke out of that habit a few years ago.

The only Biblical instructions I am aware of relating to dress and worship are in Exodus 19, where the Lord told Moses to tell the people to wash their clothes and in Exodus 20:26, where there seems to be a reference to modesty/decency in dress/conduct. Feel free to add any I may have missed.

The Adventist church has no 'dress code', and from one continent to another one will find that the style of dress changes in keeping with the culture and tradition, but generally the same principle can be found anywhere: people will wear the best clothes they have in their wardrobe. Going to church is special and it's nice to mark that specialness by dressing up.

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Re: What to wear to church on the Sabbath
« Reply #4 on: Mon Apr 15, 2013 - 08:51:44 »



Offline chosenone

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Re: What to wear to church on the Sabbath
« Reply #5 on: Mon Apr 15, 2013 - 09:59:46 »
I think "Come just as you are" is a nice way to go. ::smile::

Blessings.


 I agree. When I was young many ladies wore hats like at a wedding. I am glad that I can be relaxed at church now. If everyone wears smart suits that may well put many people off, especially the youth and the poor. Apart from the women being told to dress modestly, I cant see any other instructions on it in the NT.

Offline drewhemm

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Re: What to wear to church on the Sabbath
« Reply #6 on: Mon Apr 15, 2013 - 10:52:56 »
I agree. When I was young many ladies wore hats like at a wedding. I am glad that I can be relaxed at church now. If everyone wears smart suits that may well put many people off, especially the youth and the poor. Apart from the women being told to dress modestly, I cant see any other instructions on it in the NT.

When I went to church in Jamaica, many of the ladies there wore hats; in the US, not as many; here in Europe I haven't seen a hat for years - all comes down to culture, personal preference and one's own interpretation of Scripture.

I was 23 when I was baptised, had no problem at all with the concept of dressing smartly to attend church; didn't need anyone to tell me to or suggest that I should do so. As for the poor, we can either dress like homeless people to make them feel at home, or we can follow the Biblical example and feed and clothe them and assist them with their needs. And before you ask, yes, I've taken part in outreach programmes with disadvantaged people.

Offline DaveW

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Re: What to wear to church on the Sabbath
« Reply #7 on: Mon Apr 15, 2013 - 12:07:33 »
I have been to a few SDA services and I have to say it varies by congregation.

My advice would be a suit and tie for your first visit. If no one else has a tie on, ditch it.  When you go back the next time, you will have a better idea what that congregation does.

btw - I would suggest you remove any 'jewelry' like a wedding band or wristwatch) As the SDA came from Wesleyan Holiness rootstock, those may be frowned upon. (again depending on the particular congregation)

Offline drewhemm

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Re: What to wear to church on the Sabbath
« Reply #8 on: Mon Apr 15, 2013 - 12:17:52 »
I would suggest you remove any 'jewelry' like a wedding band or wristwatch) As the SDA came from Wesleyan Holiness rootstock, those may be frowned upon. (again depending on the particular congregation)

Now that's just unkind! You say jewellery and then go to mention watches and wedding bands!? While genuine jewellery like ear rings, necklaces, bracelets, nose studs, tongue piercings and eyebrow piercings etc are indeed "frowned upon", watches certainly are not. Wedding bands are just 'unnecessary'; I was married to my wife with the exchange of vows, not pieces of metal...

Sounds like you need to re-read Isaiah 3 & 4, God calls such adornments "filth". Compared to that description, our mortal opinions are worth nothing.

Offline DaveW

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Re: What to wear to church on the Sabbath
« Reply #9 on: Mon Apr 15, 2013 - 13:13:41 »
Not unkind.  I am warning the OP that there may be people in the SDA that will have nothing to do with him if he wears a wedding band and wristwatch.

Since the OP was a guy, I thought that earrings and necklaces would not be an issue.

BTW - my dad was ordained in the Wesleyan Methodist denom. And they forbade wristwatches.

Offline drewhemm

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Re: What to wear to church on the Sabbath
« Reply #10 on: Mon Apr 15, 2013 - 14:20:10 »
Not unkind.  I am warning the OP that there may be people in the SDA that will have nothing to do with him if he wears a wedding band and wristwatch.

Since the OP was a guy, I thought that earrings and necklaces would not be an issue.

BTW - my dad was ordained in the Wesleyan Methodist denom. And they forbade wristwatches.

I'm sure if I walk into certain churches, especially in North America, they will have nothing to do with me because I am black. My experiences of racial segregation in America were quite an eye-opener. That does not necessarily have to have anything to do with the doctrines or even customs of that denomination. I am sure there are some racist people who frequent Adventist churches on a Sabbath morning - what does that prove? Unless you have visited an Adventist church and had someone criticise you for wearing a wristwatch or a wedding band, I suggest you let an Adventist explain what one might expect to find in an Adventist church. For the record, we do not and never have forbidden wristwatches.

As for earrings and necklaces, you may not have noticed, but they are worn by both sexes. I wore both in my pre-Christian days.

Offline DaveW

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Re: What to wear to church on the Sabbath
« Reply #11 on: Tue Apr 16, 2013 - 05:28:41 »
I grew up near Andrews Univ. in SW lower Michigan. I visited their on campus church "Pioneer Memorial" a few times and my wife was friends with the wife of one of Pioneer's elders.
(I loved their pipe organ!)

I never saw a wristwatch.  And I did check because my dad's background.  I have visited other SDA congregations as well.

I am sorry that you have experienced that racist crap. But I know what you mean.  When I was young my mom met my step dad in a Church of God in Christ - a sizable black pentecostal church.  We were asked to leave because we were white (and it was 1965)

Offline drewhemm

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Re: What to wear to church on the Sabbath
« Reply #12 on: Tue Apr 16, 2013 - 05:44:50 »
I grew up near Andrews Univ. in SW lower Michigan. I visited their on campus church "Pioneer Memorial" a few times and my wife was friends with the wife of one of Pioneer's elders.
(I loved their pipe organ!)

I never saw a wristwatch.  And I did check because my dad's background.  I have visited other SDA congregations as well.

I am sorry that you have experienced that racist crap. But I know what you mean.  When I was young my mom met my step dad in a Church of God in Christ - a sizable black pentecostal church.  We were asked to leave because we were white (and it was 1965)

Are you honestly telling me you visited a church and pulled up everyone's sleeves to see if they were wearing a watch or not!?  That would be odd behaviour...

And your experience in the pentecostal church expresses my point precisely; did it lead you to conclude that all (or even many) Pentecostal churches were havens of intolerance for people of other ethnicities? When people tell you they are going to visit a Pentecostal church, do you feel the need to warn them about the racist people they may encounter there?

I've been in the Adventist church for over ten years; I've been an active member of three churches in three different countries in two different continents and I have met Adventists from more than a dozen other countries. Do you know how many times in conversation watches have come up in those ten years? Not once. Suggesting to someone that they leave their watch (or wedding band) at home before visiting an Adventist church is preposterous and not based on anything of ours you've read nor on anything more than conclusions you've jumped to without ever having asked an Adventist for clarification...

Offline Hobie

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Re: What to wear to church on the Sabbath
« Reply #13 on: Fri Aug 09, 2019 - 05:38:55 »
Hello,

Anyone is free to visit an Adventist church, absolutely no appointment required! Having said that, depending on the size of the church (especially if the congregation is several hundred or larger), you may want to mention to one of the deacons/deaconesses on the door that you are visiting, so they can give you a proper welcome. In a smaller church, people will quickly spot that you're new and they'll want to welcome you and make you feel at home.

I have no idea what people wear to church in the Seattle area specifically, but in most Adventist churches in North America (and here in Europe too) a full suit should fit in nicely, or a pair of smart trousers (what you guys call 'pants') and a collared shirt if you prefer the 'smart-casual' look.

Something I always keep in mind is that, as I'm going to be in the presence of the ruler of the universe, I should wear attire appropriate for an introduction to an earthly ruler; I would want to look my best if I was invited to Buckingham Palace or the White House. That doesn't mean I always wear a tie, but I make the effort to look presentable. ::smile::

Be sure to let us know how you get on!

Regards

Andrew
The problem is some just lack respect at any level

Offline beam

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Re: What to wear to church on the Sabbath
« Reply #14 on: Sat Aug 10, 2019 - 10:02:42 »
I can understand that one would not like to feel, because of what was norm in clothing, out of place.   The fact is if people are going to judge you because you do not FIT the norm then you know that is not the place you should be fellowshipping.  I was a SDA for 40 years and, for reasons I won't get into now, the followers of that belief system tend to be very judgmental.  I, too, fell into that trap.  I was head deacon and one of the deacons came to church with a pendulum around his neck and I refused to allow him to serve.  The SDA prophet advised the flock to wear their "best" when entering the sanctuary.  Did Jesus make any requirements before he taught or healed them?


I believe we should be clean, not smelling like we pitched hay all day, when we congregate before our Savior, but even if we do not have a chance to bathe and wear clean clothes I am sure Jesus won't turn His back on us.

Offline Hobie

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Re: What to wear to church on the Sabbath
« Reply #15 on: Sat Jul 03, 2021 - 17:35:14 »
Now that's just unkind! You say jewellery and then go to mention watches and wedding bands!? While genuine jewellery like ear rings, necklaces, bracelets, nose studs, tongue piercings and eyebrow piercings etc are indeed "frowned upon", watches certainly are not. Wedding bands are just 'unnecessary'; I was married to my wife with the exchange of vows, not pieces of metal...

Sounds like you need to re-read Isaiah 3 & 4, God calls such adornments "filth". Compared to that description, our mortal opinions are worth nothing.
Very true..
Isaiah 4:4 King James Version (KJV)
4 When the Lord shall have washed away the filth of the daughters of Zion, and shall have purged the blood of Jerusalem from the midst thereof by the spirit of judgment, and by the spirit of burning.

Offline Texas Conservative

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Re: What to wear to church on the Sabbath
« Reply #16 on: Sat Jul 03, 2021 - 19:17:32 »
When I visit, I wear my finest Jesuit attire.

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Re: What to wear to church on the Sabbath
« Reply #17 on: Sat Jul 03, 2021 - 20:55:42 »
They used to say to dress for church with the same care you'd dress for a loved one's funeral - out of respect.

I haven't been to a funeral lately, but from what I'm seeing online, typical dress for funerals is now jeans, graphic tees, and flip flops.

Offline RB

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Re: What to wear to church on the Sabbath
« Reply #18 on: Sun Jul 04, 2021 - 04:54:49 »
They used to say to dress for church with the same care you'd dress for a loved one's funeral - out of respect.

I haven't been to a funeral lately, but from what I'm seeing online, typical dress for funerals is now jeans, graphic tees, and flip flops.
SO SAD TO WATCH! Actually, back in the fifties, folks NEVER left their house without wearing very acceptable attire~I have seen some professional sporting events on ESPEN where mostly men attended, and then in a sport coat, with a white shirt, and a tie! We have allowed the sodomites and hip-hop community to change the way we think and have gravitated toward them.

I well remember sitting in a restaurant and overheard two northern men that moved down (from the New York area) complaining about Malls and other places that were closed on Sunday (back in the late seventies here) ~saying......""in a matter of time we will change all this!" Well it is forever changed~ in just about every area of our life..... now, they are working to change the way folks THINK and they are almost finished this job as well....we are now a Socialist country learning very heavily toward Communism~unless God saves this country for a few righteous people in it we will be very soon, sooner than folks realize.
« Last Edit: Sun Jul 04, 2021 - 04:58:08 by RB »

Offline Rella

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Re: What to wear to church on the Sabbath
« Reply #19 on: Sun Jul 04, 2021 - 07:59:55 »
When I visit, I wear my finest Jesuit attire.

90 yeras ago my maternal grandfather "preached" ... BEWARE OF THE ROUND HATS!

And you have a couple of styles of those, at least, as well as attire to hide your short pants.
::crackup::

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OR???

download" border="0

Or perhaps you prefer your Irish Jesuit garb???

download-1" border="0


Offline Amo

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Re: What to wear to church on the Sabbath
« Reply #20 on: Sun Jul 04, 2021 - 08:43:52 »
SO SAD TO WATCH! Actually, back in the fifties, folks NEVER left their house without wearing very acceptable attire~I have seen some professional sporting events on ESPEN where mostly men attended, and then in a sport coat, with a white shirt, and a tie! We have allowed the sodomites and hip-hop community to change the way we think and have gravitated toward them.

I well remember sitting in a restaurant and overheard two northern men that moved down (from the New York area) complaining about Malls and other places that were closed on Sunday (back in the late seventies here) ~saying......""in a matter of time we will change all this!" Well it is forever changed~ in just about every area of our life..... now, they are working to change the way folks THINK and they are almost finished this job as well....we are now a Socialist country learning very heavily toward Communism~unless God saves this country for a few righteous people in it we will be very soon, sooner than folks realize.

There it is. SDA's are legalists because they believe people should keep God's sabbath according to His commandment by faith, but in the good old days, it was illegal to open stores and shops on Sundays. Do you really think getting rid of government mandated Sunday closures and observance, leads to Communism? Chick-fil-a has always demonstrated  proper observance of religious faith or choice by shutting down on Sundays without a government mandate to do so. Which is why I believe so many support them. They prove their faith, by walking the walk they profess.

The Catholic Church believes Sunday sacredness should be mandated by law, and they have had and do have very unhealthy relations with socialism, and Communism. Their present leadership prefers both to Capitalism. No, abandoning government mandated Sunday sacredness does not and has not encouraged Communism, so much at all as other elements, institutions, and politics which have been steadily gaining power and influence within this nation for a long time now.

The power and influence of Roman Catholicism within this nation which has been rising steadily for so long now, to the point of them being more numerous within our government than all others, is a serious move towards any and all forms of elitist government away from government for the people and by the people. Don't worry, you will get your Sunday laws back without question if their power trend is not hindered very soon. Nevertheless, it most certainly will not bring back the good old days you are referring to.

https://www.americamagazine.org/faith/2019/07/23/catholic-case-communism

Quotes below are fromm article at link above.

Quote
The Catholic Case for Communism

A Complicated History

Christianity and communism have obviously had a complicated relationship. That adjective “complicated” will surely cause some readers to roll their eyes. Communist states and movements have indeed persecuted religious people at different moments in history. At the same time, Christians have been passionately represented in communist and socialist movements around the world. And these Christians, like their atheist comrades, are communists not because they misunderstand the final goals of communism but because they authentically understand the communist ambition of a classless society.

“From each according to ability, to each according to need,” Marx summarizes in “Critique of the Gotha Program,” a near echo of Luke’s description of the early church in Acts 4:35 and 11:29. Perhaps it was Day, not her young communist neighbor, who misunderstood communism.

It is true that Marx, Engels, Lenin and a number of other major communists were committed Enlightenment thinkers, atheists who sometimes assumed religion would fade away in the bright light of scientific reason, and at other times advocated propagandizing against it (though not, as Lenin argued, in a way that would divide the movement against capitalism, the actual opponent). That should not be so scandalous in itself. They are hardly alone as modern atheists, and their atheism is understandable, when Christianity has so often been a force allied to the ruling powers that exploit the poor. Catholics have found plenty of philosophical resources in non-Christian sources in the past; why not moderns?

Despite and beyond theoretical differences, priests like Herbert McCabe, O.P., Ernesto and Fernando Cardenal, S.J., Frei Betto, O.P., Camilo Torres and many other Catholics—members of the clergy, religious and laypeople—have been inspired by communists and in many places contributed to communist and communist-influenced movements as members. Some still do—for example in the Philippines, where the “Christians for National Liberation,” an activist group first organized by nuns, priests and exploited Christians, are politically housed within the National Democratic Front, a coalition of movements that includes a strong communist thread currently fighting the far-right authoritarian leader Rodrigo Duterte.

Closer to home and outside of armed struggles, Christians are also present today in communist movements in the United States and Canada. Whatever hostilities may have existed in the past, some of these movements are quite open to Christian participation now. Many of my friends in the Party for Socialism and Liberation, for example, a Marxist-Leninist party, are churchgoing Christians or folks without a grudge against their Christian upbringing, as are lots of people in the radical wing of the Democratic Socialists of America.

The Communist Party USA has published essays affirming the connections between Christianity and communism and encouraging Marxists not to write off Christians as hopelessly lost to the right (the C.P.U.S.A. paper, People’s World, even reported on Sister Simone Campbell and Network’s Nuns on the Bus campaign to agitate for immigration reform). In Canada, Dave McKee, former leader of the Communist Party of Canada in Ontario, was once an Anglican theology student at a Catholic seminary, radicalized in part by his contact with base communities in Nicaragua. For my part, I have talked more about Karl Rahner, S.J., St. Óscar Romero and liberation theology at May Day celebrations and communist meetings than at my own Catholic parish.

In other words, though some communists would undoubtedly prefer a world without Christianity, communism is not simply a program for destroying the church. Many who committed their very lives to the church felt compelled to work alongside communists as part of their Christian calling. The history of communism, whatever else it might be, will always contain a history of Christianity, and vice versa, whether members of either faction like it or not.

Communism in its socio-political expression has at times caused great human and ecological suffering. Any good communist is quick to admit as much, not least because communism is an unfinished project that depends on the recognition of its real and tragic mistakes.

But communists are not the only ones who have to answer for creating human suffering. Far from being a friendly game of world competition, capitalism, Marx argued, emerged through the privatization of what was once public, like shared land, a process enforced first by physical violence and then continued by law. As time went on, human beings themselves would become the private property of other human beings.

Colonial capitalism, together with the assumptions of white supremacy, ushered in centuries of unbridled terrorism on populations around the world, creating a system in which people could be bought and sold as commodities. Even after the official abolition of slavery in the largest world economies—which required a costly civil war in the United States—the effects of that system live on, and capitalist nations and transnational companies continue to exploit poor and working people at home and abroad. For many people around the globe today, being on the wrong side of capitalism can still mean the difference between life and death.

Communism has provided one of the few sustainable oppositions to capitalism, a global political order responsible for the ongoing suffering of millions. It is that suffering, reproduced by economic patterns that Marx and others tried to explain, and not the secret plot of atheism (as Day once argued), that motivates communists.

According to a report by Oxfam released in 2018, global inequality is staggering and still on the rise. Oxfam, which is not run by communists, observed that “82 percent of the wealth created [in 2017] went to the richest one percent of the global population, while the 3.7 billion people who make up the poorest half of humanity got nothing.”

While entrepreneurs like Elon Musk and Jeff Bezos are investing in space travel, their workers are grounded in daily economic struggle here on earth. In Mr. Musk’s Tesla factories, workers suffer serious injuries more than twice the industrial average, and they report being so exhausted that they collapse on the factory floor.

An undercover journalist reports workers urinate into bottles in a U.K. Amazon warehouse for fear of being disciplined for “idle time,” and the company has a long list of previous offenses. In Pennsylvania, Amazon workers needed medical attention both for exposure to the cold in the winter and for heat exhaustion in the summer. These hardly seem like prices worth paying so a few billionaires can vacation in the black expanse of space. As one Detroit Tesla worker put it: “Everything feels like the future but us.”

For communists, global inequality and the abuse of workers at highly profitable corporations are not the result only of unkind employers or unfair labor regulations. They are symptoms of a specific way of organizing wealth, one that did not exist at the creation of the world and one that represents part of a “culture of death,” to borrow a familiar phrase. We already live in a world where wealth is redistributed, but it goes up, not down or across.

Though polls show U.S. citizens have become increasingly skeptical of capitalism—one Gallup survey even reports that Democrats currently view socialism more positively than capitalism—that attitude is not widely popular among electoral representatives. A revival of socialist hysteria typified the response to Bernie Sanders’s inspiring 2016 primary bid and the electoral success of Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez and Rashida Tlaib, members of the Democratic Socialists of America, a party co-founded by a former Catholic Worker, Michael Harrington. Republican and Democratic politicians have made it abundantly clear that whatever their differences, they both agree that in U.S. political culture support for capitalism is non-negotiable, as Nancy Pelosi told a socialist questioner during a CNN town hall.

Communists are not content with the back-and-forth of capitalist parties, who point fingers at one another while maintaining, jointly, a system that exploits multitudes of people, including their own constituents. Communists think we can build better ways of being together in society.

Contrary to the fear that communists simply want everyone’s “stuff,” the abolition of private property, for which Marx and Engels called, means the abolition of privately owned ways of generating wealth, not taking the clothes off your back or your dad’s tie collection. As the popular saying in communist circles goes, communists do not want your toothbrush. Some of the standard proposals in the programs of communist parties include things like providing free health care, abolishing private profit from renting property and the creation of truly democratic institutions in which politicians are not millionaires and are subject to recall.

In fact, although the Catholic Church officially teaches that private property is a natural right, this teaching also comes with the proviso that private property is always subordinate to the common good. So subordinate, says Pope Francis in a truly radical moment in “Laudato Si’,” that “The Christian tradition has never recognized the right to private property as absolute or inviolable, and has stressed the social purpose of all forms of private property.”

Something like this is paralleled in “The Communist Manifesto,” when Marx and Engels underscore that abolishing private property means abolishing not personal property, or the kinds of things an artisan or farmer might own, but the amassed property held by the rich, which divides human beings into antagonistic classes of people—in other words, the kind of private property that most of us do not have.

“You are horrified at our intending to do away with private property,” Marx and Engels say to their bourgeois detractors. “But in your existing society, private property is already done away with for nine-tenths of the population; its existence for the few is solely due to its non-existence in the hands of those nine-tenths.”

Instead, they write that property should be transformed. In a passage not too far from Pope Francis’ bold sentence above, Marx and Engels say: “When, therefore, capital is converted into common property, into the property of all members of society, personal property is not thereby transformed into social property. It is only the social character of the property that is changed. It loses its class character.”

What communists desire is an authentically common life together, and they think that can only happen by relativizing property in light of the good of everyone. Radical indeed, but certainly not all that shocking to people who remember when the Virgin Mary sang that God has filled the hungry with good things and sent the rich away empty (Lk 1:53).

Dorothy Day and Christian Communism

Dorothy Day seemed to recognize the deeper motivations for communism later on, changing her judgment of good communists to suggest perhaps there is also good communism. Her article in America was written at the beginning of the Great Depression. Twenty years later, Fidel Castro and comrades founded the 26th of July Movement. That effort in 1959 ousted Fulgencio Batista, whose regime was infamous for torturing or killing thousands of Cubans while enjoying support from the United States.

Reflecting on the Cuban revolution in The Catholic Worker in 1961, Day offered a complex perspective on the persecution of some Catholics following the revolution. Nevertheless, she wrote, “It is hard...to say that the place of The Catholic Worker is with the poor, and that being there, we are often finding ourselves on the side of the persecutors of the Church. This is a tragic fact.”

Day reminded her readers that Castro emphasized he was not against the church or Catholics as such (he knew Catholics in the revolution, after all) but against those factions within Cuba that would prefer to cling to the old regime, built on the oppression of Cuba’s people. Castro had not only permitted priests and nuns to stay in Cuba, Day wrote, but affirmed that the church endured through monarchies, republics and in feudalist states. “Why cannot she exist under a socialist state?” she asked. She noted many Jesuits would stay in Cuba to work in parishes and added that the Jesuits already had experience living through periods of persecution and suppression.

But Dorothy Day was not open only to the begrudging possibility that the Cuban church might not be wiped out by socialism. She went further: “We are on the side of the revolution. We believe there must be new concepts of property, which is proper to [humanity], and that the new concept is not so new. There is a Christian communism and a Christian capitalism.

“God Bless the priests and people of Cuba. God bless Castro and all those who are seeing Christ in the poor,” she said. A year later, Day visited Cuba to see the revolutionary society for herself. In a series of dispatches to The Catholic Worker, she reported glowingly, albeit not without noting the many problems the young society had to solve, problems she hoped could in fact be solved with a little communist ingenuity.

Spanning over a century now, communists—Christians and non-Christians—have fought against a violent capitalist economy, putting their lives and freedoms at risk, enduring character assassination, imprisonment and war. Whether or not one is convinced by the communist hope of abolishing private property, it is undeniable that communists have provided a real, material challenge to a global system that the most powerful world governments have every intention of perpetuating. The loss of a mass communist movement, due in large part to an aggressive legal and political persecution by the United States and other governments, has made organizing opposition to capitalism itself a difficult task; but even in its absence, a majority of millennials reject capitalism.

As Marx and Engels put it in “The Communist Manifesto”: “In place of the bourgeois society, with its classes and class antagonisms, we shall have an association, in which the free development of each is the condition for the free development of all.” It is with that hope for free development, beyond the competition of capitalists, that many Catholics, myself included, count themselves among the communists.

So Dorothy Day was right when she said it is when the communists are good that they are dangerous. Communists are pursuing the good when they are dangerous; they are opposing an economic system based on avarice, exploitation and human suffering, afflicting the comfortable and comforting the afflicted. And in a world beholden to an economy of death, one that is crippling our “common home,” as Pope Francis tells us, and asserting itself as the end of history, we must also add: It is when the communists are dangerous that they are good.

There you have it. Revisionist history highlighting corrupt Capitalism as its main effect upon the world, and the good side of Communism as its present main effect upon the world. Gee, where do you think all the lefties get their revisionist history ideas from? Duh, I Dunno. Of course, good Communists, will support government mandated Sunday sacredness along with their friendly neighborhood Papal submitting Catholics. So no worries, even if the Commies take over, you will likely have your mandated Sunday closures back.



« Last Edit: Sun Jul 04, 2021 - 08:52:20 by Amo »

Offline Amo

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Re: What to wear to church on the Sabbath
« Reply #21 on: Sun Jul 04, 2021 - 08:58:13 »

90 yeras ago my maternal grandfather "preached" ... BEWARE OF THE ROUND HATS!

And you have a couple of styles of those, at least, as well as attire to hide your short pants.
::crackup::

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OR???

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Or perhaps you prefer your Irish Jesuit garb???

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It's not the Jesuits in their Catholic garb one should worry about, as much as their minions in the field taking on countless identities, to further their diabolical ends. Like the ones who write the article I just quoted above, and the ever increasing number of their politicians running our country and states.

Offline DaveW

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Re: What to wear to church on the Sabbath
« Reply #22 on: Wed Jul 07, 2021 - 12:28:19 »
Are you honestly telling me you visited a church and pulled up everyone's sleeves to see if they were wearing a watch or not!?  That would be odd behaviour...
Of course not.  But it was warm out and many of the men had their sleeves partially rolled up (the way my dad always did) to the mid forearm.
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And your experience in the pentecostal church expresses my point precisely; did it lead you to conclude that all (or even many) Pentecostal churches were havens of intolerance for people of other ethnicities? When people tell you they are going to visit a Pentecostal church, do you feel the need to warn them about the racist people they may encounter there?
No - it did not leave me that impression at all.  It just told the 11 year old me that racial tensions were high and there were a lot of hard feelings on both sides of the issue,

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I've been in the Adventist church for over ten years; I've been an active member of three churches in three different countries in two different continents and I have met Adventists from more than a dozen other countries. Do you know how many times in conversation watches have come up in those ten years? Not once. Suggesting to someone that they leave their watch (or wedding band) at home before visiting an Adventist church is preposterous and not based on anything of ours you've read nor on anything more than conclusions you've jumped to without ever having asked an Adventist for clarification...

As I said, I grew up near Andrews.  BTW - for a village of less than 4000 residents there were over 20 DIFFERENT SDA congregations.  Most are language based. My aunt belongs to the Korean speaking one.

I listened to their radio station (one of the first FM channels in our area) and heard a lot of hell fire and brimstone preachers - some that would give the pentecostals a good run;  and from some preachers I heard all about "adorning the flesh,"  with wedding bands and earrings and necklaces - and yes, wristwatches.

 

     
anything