Who is the Babylon of Revelation?

[Hobie]

Who is the Babylon of Revelation? This is very important as Revelation reveals its work through history up to the last days before Jesus comes back at the Second Coming.

So who is this power which wreaks so much havoc on Gods faithful believers. Who is mystery Babylon? Revelation 17:5 reads,“And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.”

Just from analysing scriptures alone from the Book of Revelation a consistent theme can be seen of an Apostate Church that persecuted the Christian Saints through the dark ages for 1260 years. Further analysis reveals that this Apostate Church is the key component of mystery Babylon and changed God’s law in favour of pagan traditions and worshiping the pagan gods.

The ultimate climax seen is God taking justice on this Apostate Church and those that supported her, for her crimes and fornication just before the second coming of Christ. Just before this happens the issue of the Mark of the Beast will be enforced and all will have the choice to bow down to the image made to this Apostate Church or to Worship God only and keep His Commandments. Those who willingly disobey God in favour of bowing down to the traditions and commandments of this Church and mystery Babylon, the mother of Harlots, will ultimately receive her Mark and “shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God.”

http://www.amazingdiscoveries.org/the-wine-of-babylon.html

[Hobie]

So what church from the 1200s to the 1800s, openly condemned the reading of the Bible in the vernacular (the language of the common people) and even persecuted those caught with copies of the Scriptures in their possession.  Note these historical statements:

At the Council of Toulouse (1229 A.D), papal church leaders ruled: "We prohibit laymen possessing copies of the Old and New Testament ... We forbid them most severely to have the above books in the popular vernacular." "'The lords of the districts shall carefully seek out the heretics in dwellings, hovels, and forests, and even their underground retreats shall be entirely wiped out." Pope Gregory IX, Council Tolosanum, 1229 A.D.

The Council of Tarragona also ruled that: "No one may possess the books of the Old and New Testaments in the Romance language, and if anyone possesses them he must turn them over to the local bishop within eight days after the promulgation of this decree, so that they may be burned." D. Lortsch, Histoire de la Bible en France, 1910, p. 14.

The Council of Trent (1545-1564) placed the Bible on its list of prohibited books, and forbade any person to read the Bible without a license from a Roman Catholic bishop or inquisitor. The Council added these words: "That if any one shall dare to read or keep in his possession that book, without such a license, he shall not receive absolution till he has given it up to his ordinary."

"Since it is clear from experience that if the Sacred Books are permitted everywhere and without discrimination in the vernacular (in the common language of the people, D.R.) there will by reasons of the boldness of men arise therefrom more harm than good..." Canons and Decrees of the Council of Trent, p. 274.


The attempt to keep the Bible from men has continued to recent times. Pope Pius VII (1800-1823) denounced Bible Societies and expressed shock at the circulation of the Scriptures. This Pope declared, "It is evidence from experience, that the holy Scriptures, when circulated in the vulgar tongue, have, through the temerity of men, produced more harm than benefit."
Pope Gregory XVI (1831-1846) railed: "against the publication, distribution, reading, and possession of books of the holy Scriptures translated into the vulgar tongue."

Pope Leo XII called the Protestant Bible the "Gospel of the Devil" in an encyclical letter of 1824. In January 1850, he also condemned Bible Societies and admitted the fact that the distribution of Scripture has "long been condemned by the holy chair."

Pope Leo XIII declared, "As it has been clearly shown by experience that, if the holy Bible in the vernacular is generally permitted without any distinction, more harm than utility is thereby caused..." Great Encyclical Letters of Leo XIII, pp. 412-413.

On December 8, 1866, after European Bible societies had been formed to translate and spread the Word of God, Pope Pius IX, in his encyclical Quanta Cura, issued this amazing statement: "Socialism, Communism, clandestine societies, Bible societies... pests of this sort must be destroyed by all means."...http://www.whitehorsemedia.com

[Lee Freeman]

Hobie, it isn't enough to post quotes ripped out of their historical/literary contexts which are designed to accuse the Catholic Church of banning vernacular translations. You need to consider the specfic literary and historical contexts of these quotes you've proof-texted. You need to understand why the Catholic Church made these statements. Then, you may not agree with their reasons, but at least you'll understand them.

Actually, there was no specific ban by the Roman Catholic Church on making vernacular translations of the Bible-an Anglo-Saxon translation was made in the tenth century. And by 1300, there were vernacular translations of the Bible in Italian; the church was just concerned that, due to the vagaries of language, unauthorized, unsupervised translations might contain serious doctrinal or theological errors. Medeival historian R N Swanson in his Cambridge Medieval Textbook Religion and Devotion in Europe, c. 1215-c. 1515, says:

By 1500, most of the dominant vernacular languages had their own texts of the Bible, although the existence of such translations was not always welcomed by the ecclesiastical authorities. This was because a vernacular translation of the Bible posed fundamental problems: Faith should not be perverted by losing something in translation. Therefore the text had to be accessible, but its use controlled. This probably resulted slowly, as ordained clergy lost their monopoly of preaching and theology became much more technical.


The earliest vernacular translations, from before 1000 A. D., aroused no objections. However, after 1200, the climate shifted. There was no specific ban on vernacular translations of the Bible, but there was wariness about the nature of any translation and their use.


Swanson continues:

How much access did people have to the Bible? The idea of a Bible-less church may seem strange, but it is likely that full Bibles were rarely encountered. They would be found in universities with theology faculties, and in teaching establishments of the regular religious orders [monks], but most places did not need them; church service books would provide all the scripture passages required for such purposes. Apart from the Latin texts themselves, access to the Bible was gained in many ways. Sermons expounded the texts. There were also "books of hours," stained glass windows and mystery plays.

Regarding literacy, Swanson writes:

The strictures regarding the Bible apply to most books. Yet to deal with books raises the question of literacy, and the fact is that medieval European society was not one of mass literacy. In the twelfth and thirteenth centuries, reading and writing, especially writing, were restricted skills, although they became more common later. Reading may have been more widespread than writing, and would inevitably increase as vernacular literatures themselves developed. . . .The availability of formal education to teach reading and writing, especially education in Latin, was limited, but expanded considerably over the centuries. . . .

In medieval Europe, most people, including not a few priests, were illiterate. So even had Bibles been readily available, few people one could've read them. Because books had to be copied by hand until the advent of movable type and the printing press, a long, lanborious process, carried out by monks with training, books were highly prized treasures. Regardless, an education for its own sake was not a highly prized concept in medieval Europe. "Book learning," which included reading/writing, was necessary and useful only for the clergy, and a few professional occupations such as lawyers. Thus they had other ways the laity learned Scripture, from hearing it read in the service (and over the course of a whole year Catholic and Orthodox Churches read through the whole Bible in their services, something most Protestant churches can't say), to seeing it depicted in stained glass windows and carvings, to hearing it sung in chants, etc. Gradually, as the medieval period progressed more and more people with means learned to read/write a little, and many began keeping small libraries. They often owned books of hours and church prayer books, which contained all of the Scripture readings used throughout the whole liturgical year.

The Church was not opposed to vernacular translations (again, most people couldn't have read them anyway) but were opposed to unauthorized translations, and to ignorant, uneducated, or unauthorized people teaching the Bible. The Catholic and Greek Orthodox Churches believed and still believe that, since Scripture was written within the Church, a few decades after the Church was founded, that the priests, which they believe are the successors of the apostles, were given by Jesus the task of interpreting Scripture for the faithful. These Churches believed then and still believe that Scripture cannot be understood without the proper, supervised traning.

But the Catholic Church of 1215, or 1515, or 1715, or 1850,  isn't the same Catholic Church of 2009, in which nearly all members, clergy and laity, can read, and are trained by the Church to understand the Church's interpretation of Scripture. The modern Catholic Church, certainly since Vatican II in the '60s, encourages reading of the Bible (as well as the Catechism of the Catholic Church), in the vernacular, by the masses.

Pax.

[Amo]

THE HISTORY OF PROTESTANTISM BY THE REV. J. A. WYLIE, LL.D.,

BOOK 1 CHAP. 12  Page 94

It is idle for Rome to say, “I gave you the Bible, and therefore you must
believe in me before you can believe in it.” The facts we have already
narrated conclusively dispose of this claim. Rome did not give us the Bible
— she did all in her power to keep it from us; she retained it under the seal
of a dead language; and when others broke that seal, and threw open its
pages to all, she stood over the book, and, unsheathing her fiery sword,
would permit none to read the message of life, save at the peril of eternal
anathema.
We owe the Bible — that is, the transmission of it — to those persecuted
communities which we have so rapidly passed in review. They received it
from the primitive Church, and carried it down to us. They translated it
into the mother tongues of the nations. They colported it over
Christendom, singing it in their lays as troubadours, preaching it in their
sermons as missionaries, and living it out as Christians. They fought the
battle of the Word of God against tradition, which sought to bury it. They
sealed their testimony for it at the stake. But for them, so far as human
agency is concerned, the Bible would, ere this day, have disappeared from
the world. Their care to keep this torch burning is one of the marks which
indubitably certify them as forming part of that one true Catholic Church,
which God called into existence at first by His word, and which, by the
same instrumentality, He has, in the conversion of souls, perpetuated from
age to age.

The pastors recommended to the people the having of the books of the
New Testament in their mother-tongue, and pressed the reading thereof
with so much care and application, that Raymond, Earl of Toulouse, never
stirred any whither without taking that holy book with him. This was the
certain badge and mark of all these heretics, and that whereby they
defended themselves. For which reason, the Council of Toulouse, fearing
lest their croisades should not be able to exterminate the Albigenses, as
long as they had the Bible in the vulgar tongue, took care to prohibit the
having of it in these terms;

“We prohibit the permission of the books of the Old and New
Testament to laymen, except perhaps they might desire to have the
Psalter, or some Breviary for the divine service, or the Hours of the
blessed Virgin Mary, for devotion; expressly forbidding their
having the other parts of the Bible translated into the vulgar tongue.” ( Remarks Upon The Ecclesiastical History Of The Ancient Churches Of The Albigenses by Peter Allix D.D Page 525 )

The king was still a prisoner; the regent and Duprat, who were opposed to
the Reformation, wielded supreme power; the priests, seeing the
importance of the moment, united all their efforts to combat the
evangelical influences, and obtained a brilliant triumph. On Monday, the
5th of February, 1526, a month before the return of Francis I., the sound
of the trumpet was heard in all the public places of Paris, and a little later
in those of Sens, Orleans, Auxerre, Meaux, Tours, Bourges, Angers,
Poitiers, Troyes, Lyons, and Macon, and ‘in all the bailiwicks,
seneschallies, provestries, viscounties, and estates of the realm.’ When the
trumpet ceased, the herald cried by order of parliament: ‘All persons are
forbidden to put up to sale or translate from Latin into French the epistles
of St. Paul, the Apocalypse, and other books. Henceforward no printer
shall print any of the books of Luther. No one shall speak of the
ordinances of the Church or of images, otherwise than holy Church ordains
All books of the Holy Bible, translated into French, shall be given up by
those who possess them, and carried within a week to the clerks of the
court. All prelates, priests, and their curates shall forbid their parishioners
to have the least doubt of the Catholic faith.’ fc72 Translations, books,
explanations, and even doubts were prohibited.
( History Of The Reformation In The Time Of Calvin Vol. 1 by J.H. Merle d’Aubigne Pages 323&324)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       

[Hobie]

Hobie, it isn't enough to post quotes ripped out of their historical/literary contexts which are designed to accuse the Catrholic Church of banning vernacular translations. You need to consider the specfic literary and historical contexts of these quotes you've proof-texted. You need to understand why the Catholic Church made these statements. Then, you may not agree with their reasons, but at least you'll understand them.

Actually, there was no specific ban by the Roman Catholic Church on making vernacular translations of the Bible-an Anglo-Saxon translation was made in the tenth century. And by 1300, there were vernacular translations of the Bible in Italian; the church was just concerned that, due to the vagaries of language, unauthorized, unsupervised translations might contain serious doctrinal or theological errors. Medeival historian R N Swanson in his Cambridge Medieval Textbook Religion and Devotion in Europe, c. 1215-c. 1515, says:

By 1500, most of the dominant vernacular languages had their own texts of the Bible, although the existence of such translations was not always welcomed by the ecclesiastical authorities. This was because a vernacular translation of the Bible posed fundamental problems: Faith should not be perverted by losing something in translation. Therefore the text had to be accessible, but its use controlled. This probably resulted slowly, as ordained clergy lost their monopoly of preaching and theology became much more technical.


The earliest vernacular translations, from before 1000 A. D., aroused no objections. However, after 1200, the climate shifted. There was no specific ban on vernacular translations of the Bible, but there was wariness about the nature of any translation and their use.


Swanson continues:

How much access did people have to the Bible? The idea of a Bible-less church may seem strange, but it is likely that full Bibles were rarely encountered. They would be found in universities with theology faculties, and in teaching establishments of the regular religious orders [monks], but most places did not need them; church service books would provide all the scripture passages required for such purposes. Apart from the Latin texts themselves, access to the Bible was gained in many ways. Sermons expounded the texts. There were also "books of hours," stained glass windows and mystery plays.

Regarding literacy, Swanson writes:

The strictures regarding the Bible apply to most books. Yet to deal with books raises the question of literacy, and the fact is that medieval European society was not one of mass literacy. In the twelfth and thirteenth centuries, reading and writing, especially writing, were restricted skills, although they became more common later. Reading may have been more widespread than writing, and would inevitably increase as vernacular literatures themselves developed. . . .The availability of formal education to teach reading and writing, especially education in Latin, was limited, but expanded considerably over the centuries. . . .

In medieval Europe, most people, including not a few priests, were illiterate. So even had Bibles been readily available, few people one could've read them. Because books had to be copied by hand until the advent of movable type and the printing press, a long, lanborious process, carried out by monks with training, books were highly prized treasures. Regardless, an education for its own sake was not a highly prized concept in medieval Europe. "Book learning," which included reading/writing, was necessary and useful only for the clergy, and a few professional occupations such as lawyers. Thus they had other ways the laity learned Scripture, from hearing it read in the service (and over the course of a whole year Catholic and Orthodox Churches read through the whole Bible in their services, something most Protestant churches can't say), to seeing it depicted in stained glass windows and carvings, to hearing it sung in chants, etc. Gradually, as the medieval period progressed more and more people with means learned to read/write a little, and many began keeping small libraries. They often owned books of hours and church prayer books, which contained all of the Scripture readings used throughout the whole liturgical year.

The Church was not opposed to vernacular translations (again, most people couldn't have read them anyway) but were opposed to unauthorized translations, and to ignorant, uneducated, or unauthorized people teaching the Bible. The Catholic and Greek Orthodox Churches believed and still believe that, since Scripture was written within the Church, a few decades after the Church was founded, that the priests, which they believe are the successors of the apostles, were given by Jesus the task of interpreting Scripture for the faithful. These Churches believed then and still believe that Scripture cannot be understood without the proper, supervised traning.

But the Catholic Church of 1215, or 1515, or 1715, or 1850,  isn't the same Catholic Church of 2009, in which nearly all members, clergy and laity, can read, and are trained by the Church to understand the Church's interpretation of Scripture. The modern Catholic Church, certainly since Vatican II in the '60s, encourages reading of the Bible (as well as the Catechism of the Catholic Church), in the vernacular, by the masses.

Pax.

Its not just because they tried to keep the scriptures from the people, there are other key points that point out who is Babylon as Revelation brings out and history shows us clearly...

Christ is represented as the Bridegroom and the Church is the bride which of course is a “Woman.”

Matthew 9:14-15 “Then came to him the disciples of John, saying, Why do we and the Pharisees fast oft, but your disciples fast not? 15 And Jesus said unto them, Can the children of the bridechamber mourn, as long as the bridegroom is with them? but the days will come, when the bridegroom shall be taken from them, and then shall they fast.”
Revelation 19:7-8 “Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his WIFE has made HERSELF ready. 8 And to HER was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.”
Revelation 12:1 “And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a WOMAN clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:”
Some have wrongly concluded that this woman is Mary but the following verse demonstrates that this woman represents God’s true Church by the symbolism used. The time period here represents the 1260 years called the dark ages where the Church had to flee into the wilderness to survive the persecution. Mary did not live for 1260 years or have eagles wings!

Revelation 12:14 “And to the WOMAN were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.”

Mystery Babylon is a CORRUPT Church: Just as a pure woman represents a pure Church, a corrupt woman represents a corrupt Church. The woman in white is Christ’s bride, the true Church. But Revelation 17:1, 15-16 and 19:2 call this second woman a “wh*re” or “HARLOT”, a fallen Church teaching false doctrines.

Mystery Babylon is a RICH Church: This symbolic wicked woman, this corrupt Church is a rich one with gorgeous display. Revelation 17:4 says she’s “decked with GOLD and PRECIOUS STONES and PEARLS, having a GOLDEN cup in her hand.” Which Church would you say is the richest in the world?

Mystery Babylon is a Church built on SEVEN HILLS or MOUNTAINS: This identification given in Revelation 17:9, is impressive and clear, for ROME is proverbial as “the city built on seven hills.” Webster’s large unabridged dictionary says this under the entry “seven-hilled”: “as, the SEVEN-HILLED CITY, that is, ROME, Italy.” Furthermore, Revelation 17:18 tells John, “The woman whom you saw is that GREAT CITY which reigns over the kings of the earth.” John wrote this using the present tense for the word “reigns” and he knew as well as anyone else that “that great city” was ROME.

Mystery Babylon is a LARGE, WORLDWIDE Church: She sits on “many WATERS,” explained as being many “peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues.” Revelation 17:1 and 15. The very word catholic means “universal,” and the Papal Church has the largest, most widespread membership in Christendom.

Mystery Babylon is a Church that revives BABYLON’S pagan teachings: “On her forehead a name was written: MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT...” Revelation 17:5. Long before John wrote the Book of Revelation, the ancient city of Babylon had been completely destroyed and never rebuilt. For centuries it lay in ruins and had faded into insignificance. The apostle Peter could not have been referring to literal Babylon when he wrote in 1 Peter 5:13 that: “She who is in Babylon ... greets you.” For there was no Church or any other human institution in the desolate ruins of ancient Babylon. He was referring to ROME as all authorities agree. It is easy to see why early Christians used “Babylon” as a code word or nickname for Rome, for there are many striking parallels between the twin cities of literal Babylon of ancient times and figurative “Babylon” or Rome. Consider just a few: Babylon was the dominant warring power of its day and Rome was the dominant warring power of its own era. Babylon conquered Israel and centuries later, Rome also conquered Israel. Babylon destroyed the first Jerusalem Temple and Rome destroyed the second. Each carried sacred vessels from the Jewish Temple back to Babylon in the east and Rome in the west; each completely destroyed and devastated the city of Jerusalem; each carried away surviving Jews into captivity. Rome was Babylon all over again. As Babylon’s “carbon copy,” Rome provides a perfect example of history repeating itself! But more to the point, this woman who sits on seven hills which is this Church located in Rome, has revived the same pagan teachings that ancient Babylon taught ages ago. She baptizes them, sanctifies them, and brings them into the Christian Church. Ages ago, when presumptuous men tried to build the Tower of Babel at Babylon, God confused their language. Genesis 11:1-9. So here in the last book of the Bible, “Babylon” is a spiritual term referring to confusion, not the confusion of languages in the Old Testament but religious confusion as the Church drifted away from God’s Word.

Mystery Babylon is a RELIGIOUS power dominating the CIVIL powers: Revelation 17:3 and 7 tell us the harlot, or fallen Church, is RIDING the beast. Daniel 7:17 and 23 tell us a beast represent a king or kingdom. When we ride a horse, we direct it and control it, so the picture God gives here is of a Church dominating the civil power. For centuries, the Papacy dictated to kings. When she wanted to punish or execute any who dared to question her teaching, she would often call on the police power of the state. Revelation 17:2 describes this harlot: “with whom the kings of the earth committed fornication.” She has influence over the kings of the earth, great influence over heads of state. Today, unlike other Churches, the Vatican exchanges ambassadors with every major nation on earth. They come to her city on seven mountains, and they bow before her, having “lived luxuriously with her.” Revelation 18:9

The false belief of Immortality: Sincere Catholics often bow down before a statue of a SAINT and devoutly pray, even though the saint is DEAD. But the Roman Church doesn’t teach that they’re dead. Even though the idea that man’s soul is naturally immortal is a PAGAN one. All the ancient pagan religions, without exception had the idea that the soul, or man’s essential being, was immortal. That non-biblical concept, inherited from Babylon was a common thread running through them all. In Egypt for instance, the pyramids were great monuments, great houses for the dead to hold their immortal spirits. But the heathen idea of man’s soul being naturally immortal comes from Egypt and Babylon and Greece, not the Bible whose teaching directly contradicts it. See such verses as 1 Timothy 6:15-16, Ezekiel 18:4, 20, Ecclesiastes 9:5, Psalm 6:5; 13:3; 115:17,  John 11:11-14, Ephesians 5:14 etc.

The Harlot of Revelation and IMAGE Worship: Many false doctrines entered the Church, but let’s focus on just three: IMAGE worship, IMMORTALITY of the soul, and SUN worship. First of all, Babylon was the center of idol worship. Everywhere you turned there were images, idols representing the pagan gods, not just statues of Bel-Marduk, their chief god. King Nebuchadnezzar set up a huge golden idol and commanded all to bow down before it. But God’s Second Commandment in Exodus 20:4-5 FORBIDS using images in religious worship, FORBIDS bowing down before them. Today the Papal Church not only fosters those very things but also has DELETED the Second Commandment from its catechisms (official training manuals).

The Harlot of Revelation and SUN Worship: The main deity of Babylon and Egypt was the Sun god. Astrology and worship of the heavens originated in Babylon. But God calls it one of the greatest of “abominations” in Ezekiel 8:15-16. Roman Emperor Constantine was a sun worshiper who never gave it up. The Roman Church disregards not only the Second Commandment about image worship but also the Fourth Commandment about the Creator’s Seventh-day Sabbath, substituting the unscriptural SUNDAY.

Mystery Babylon is the Mother of others who follow her: This is because SHE has continued to have a massive impact on what truly does matter to God, i.e., His Church. She is the root of many false doctrines, has changed God’s law and shed the blood of millions of Christians etc. When Israel committed spiritual adultery, God called His Old Testament Church a “wh*re”, a “HARLOT” and a “WHORISH WOMAN” and accused her of “FORNICATION” and “ADULTERY.” The Catholic Church is guilty of much worse than Israel. In a recent address to the nations, Pope Benedict caused a major uproar among many Churches as he referred to the Catholic Church as being the “MOTHER” Church and called for all the daughter Churches to come back to HER. They are referred to as daughter Churches because they originally came from the Catholic Church, eg: Martin Luther, who had been a Catholic priest established the Lutheran Church. Sadly, many of the daughter Churches have also ignorantly inherited various false doctrines and this is why SHE is called the “MOTHER OF HARLOTS” as is Mystery Babylon.

[Lee Freeman]

Hobie, Revelation has absolutely nothing to say about the Roman Catholic Church. When John wrote Revelation (between ca. AD 65-90) the Roman Catholic Church didn't exist-and wouldn't until 1054 AD, when the Church split into the Western, Latin Roman Catholic Church in the West and the Greek Orthodox Church in the East.

John said in Revelation 1 that he was writing prophecies "which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place."

1054 was not soon. What happened in Revelation had to have had direct meaning to those seven churches of Asia Minor John was writing to. Those churches were undergoing persecution by the Roman Empire. Thus its a good bet the events in Revelation pertained to the persecutions of the church by Rome.

Revelation was written in a genre of literature Jews and early Christians were familiar with, called apocalyptic, from the GK word apokalypsis, or "unveiling." Apocalyptic literature (other examples are Ezekiel, Daniel, parts of Isaiah, Matt. 24, etc.) routinely used figurative language not meant to be interpreted literally. The numbers, beasts, trumpets, women, etc., were symbolic.

Revelation isn't a secret code super-spiritual Christians can figure out in order to discover who the antichrist is, or when the end of the world will come, less still was it a prophecy about the Roman Catholic Church. The message John wrote to the seven churches was not to give up under persecution, but to remain faithful, because God wins and Rome falls. The mesage of Revelation for the Church in all ages is to stand firm under persecution.

If I wanted to, I could use Revelation to "prove" that the "Mystery Babylon" is the SDA Church. Because it's a piece of cake to twist Revelation to suit a preconceived interpretation. People have been doing it ever since John Darby began the process when he invented Dispensational Premillennialism in the 1830s. SDA founder William Miller himself got caught up in the millennial fervor and made two failed prophecies predicting the end of the world in the 1840s. My own Church of Christ wasn't even immune-Alexander Campbell being postmillennial and most of his colleagues and early followers being classical premillennialists. Though at least our leaders never set precise dates, or made prophecies, refusing to speculate in that way. They felt the end might be near but refused to set a specific date. They even thought William Miller might be right, but were disappointed along with everyone else when Miller's prophecies failed.

There were false churches already when John was writing, and more sprang up in the first three centuries of Christianity-long before the Church split into Eastern and Western communions. For example, the Gnostics taught a heresy which said that the material universe was inherently evil and Jesus was not literally incarnated, crucified, or resurrected. Jesus came to teach an enlightened few how to use secret knowledge to escape from the corrupt space-time world. John in I and II John, Paul in I Timothy and possibly I Corinthians, and Jude, wrote against early forms of Gnosticism. Thus there were false Churches long before the Church of Rome asserted primacy.

Pax.

[Hobie]

Hobie, Revelation has absolutely nothing to say about the Roman Catholic Church. When John wrote Revelation (between ca. AD 65-90) the Roman Catholic Church didn't exist-and wouldn't until 1054 AD, when the Church split into the Western, Latin Roman Catholic Church in the West and the Greek Orthodox Church in the East.

John said in Revelation 1 that he was writing prophecies "which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place."

1054 was not soon. What happened in Revelation had to have had direct meaning to those seven churches of Asia Minor John was writing to. Those churches were undergoing persecution by the Roman Empire. Thus its a good bet the events in Revelation pertained to the persecutions of the church by Rome.

Revelation was written in a genre of literature Jews and early Christians were familiar with, called apocalyptic, from the GK word apokalypsis, or "unveiling." Apocalyptic literature (other examples are Ezekiel, Daniel, parts of Isaiah, Matt. 24, etc.) routinely used figurative language not meant to be interpreted literally. The numbers, beasts, trumpets, women, etc., were symbolic.

Revelation isn't a secret code super-spiritual Christians can figure out in order to discover who the antichrist is, or when the end of the world will come, less still was it a prophecy about the Roman Catholic Church. The message John wrote to the seven churches was not to give up under persecution, but to remain faithful, because God wins and Rome falls. The mesage of Revelation for the Church in all ages is to stand firm under persecution.

If I wanted to, I could use Revelation to "prove" that the "Mystery Babylon" is the SDA Church. Because it's a piece of cake to twist Revelation to suit a preconceived interpretation. People have been doing it ever since John Darby began the process when he invented Dispensational Premillennialism in the 1830s. SDA founder William Miller himself got caught up in the millennial fervor and made two failed prophecies predicting the end of the world in the 1840s. My own Church of Christ wasn't even immune-Alexander Campbell being postmillennial and most of his colleagues and early followers being classical premillennialists. Though at least our leaders never set precise dates, or made prophecies, refusing to speculate in that way. They felt the end might be near but refused to set a specific date. They even thought William Miller might be right, but were disappointed along with everyone else when Miller's prophecies failed.

There were false churches already when John was writing, and more sprang up in the first three centuries of Christianity-long before the Church split into Eastern and Western communions. For example, the Gnostics taught a heresy which said that the material universe was inherently evil and Jesus was not literally incarnated, crucified, or resurrected. Jesus came to teach an enlightened few how to use secret knowledge to escape from the corrupt space-time world. John in I and II John, Paul in I Timothy and possibly I Corinthians, and Jude, wrote against early forms of Gnosticism. Thus there were false Churches long before the Church of Rome asserted primacy.

Pax.

Thats why its called Prophecy, to unveil what was to come all the way to the last days and the second coming.

[Lee Freeman]

Yet John says what he was prophesying was going to come to pass soon. Events in the 21st century wouldn't have been soon to John or his churches in the 1st century. The fall of Jerusalem in AD 70 and/or the persecutions of Emperor Domition in the 90s AD would've been soon.

Pax.

[davidandme]

Hobie, Revelation has absolutely nothing to say about the Roman Catholic Church. When John wrote Revelation (between ca. AD 65-90) the Roman Catholic Church didn't exist-and wouldn't until 1054 AD, when the Church split into the Western, Latin Roman Catholic Church in the West and the Greek Orthodox Church in the East.

John said in Revelation 1 that he was writing prophecies "which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place."

1054 was not soon. What happened in Revelation had to have had direct meaning to those seven churches of Asia Minor John was writing to. Those churches were undergoing persecution by the Roman Empire. Thus its a good bet the events in Revelation pertained to the persecutions of the church by Rome.

Revelation was written in a genre of literature Jews and early Christians were familiar with, called apocalyptic, from the GK word apokalypsis, or "unveiling." Apocalyptic literature (other examples are Ezekiel, Daniel, parts of Isaiah, Matt. 24, etc.) routinely used figurative language not meant to be interpreted literally. The numbers, beasts, trumpets, women, etc., were symbolic.

Revelation isn't a secret code super-spiritual Christians can figure out in order to discover who the antichrist is, or when the end of the world will come, less still was it a prophecy about the Roman Catholic Church. The message John wrote to the seven churches was not to give up under persecution, but to remain faithful, because God wins and Rome falls. The mesage of Revelation for the Church in all ages is to stand firm under persecution.

If I wanted to, I could use Revelation to "prove" that the "Mystery Babylon" is the SDA Church. Because it's a piece of cake to twist Revelation to suit a preconceived interpretation. People have been doing it ever since John Darby began the process when he invented Dispensational Premillennialism in the 1830s. SDA founder William Miller himself got caught up in the millennial fervor and made two failed prophecies predicting the end of the world in the 1840s. My own Church of Christ wasn't even immune-Alexander Campbell being postmillennial and most of his colleagues and early followers being classical premillennialists. Though at least our leaders never set precise dates, or made prophecies, refusing to speculate in that way. They felt the end might be near but refused to set a specific date. They even thought William Miller might be right, but were disappointed along with everyone else when Miller's prophecies failed.

There were false churches already when John was writing, and more sprang up in the first three centuries of Christianity-long before the Church split into Eastern and Western communions. For example, the Gnostics taught a heresy which said that the material universe was inherently evil and Jesus was not literally incarnated, crucified, or resurrected. Jesus came to teach an enlightened few how to use secret knowledge to escape from the corrupt space-time world. John in I and II John, Paul in I Timothy and possibly I Corinthians, and Jude, wrote against early forms of Gnosticism. Thus there were false Churches long before the Church of Rome asserted primacy.

Pax.

Keys to understand Revelations.  Use them and the book of Revelation will be understood much better.


Animals and their Parts
• Horse = Strength and Power in Battle Job 39:19, Psalms 147:10, Proverbs 21:31
• Dragon = Satan or his agency Isaiah 27:1;30:6, Psalm 74:13-14; Rev. 12:7-9; Ezekiel 29:3; Jeremiah 51:34
• Beast = Kingdom/government/political power Daniel 7:17, 23
• Lamb = Jesus/sacrifice John 1:29; 1 Corinthians 5:7
• Lion = Jesus/Powerful King i.e. Babylon Rev. 5:4-9, Jer. 50:43-44, Dan. 7:4,17,23
• Bear = Destructive Power / Medo Persia Proverbs 28:15, 2 Kings 2:23-24, Daniel 7:5
• Leopard = Greece Daniel 7:6
• Serpent = Satan Revelation 12:9; 20:2
• Tongue = Language / Speech Exodus 4:10
• Wolf = Disguised Enemies that hunt in a time of darkness Matthew 7:15
• Dove = Holy Spirit Mark 1:10
• Ram = Medo Persia Daniel 8:20
• Goat = Greece Daniel 8:21
• Horn = King or kingdom Daniel 7:24; 8:5, 21, 22; Zechariah 1:18, 19; Revelation 17:12
• Wings = Speed / Protection / Deliverance Deuteronomy 28:49, Matthew 23:37

Colors
• White = Purity Revelation 12:9; 20:2
• Blue = Law Numbers 15:38-39
• Purple = Royalty Mark 15:17, Judges 8:26
• Red/Scarlet = Sin/corruption Isaiah 1:18; Nahum 2:3; Revelation 17:1-4

Metals, Elements, and Natural Objects
• Gold = Pure Character Precious and Rare Isaiah 13:12
• Silver = Pure Words & Understanding Proverbs 2:4, 3:13-14, 10:20, 25:11, Psalms 12:6
• Brass, Tin, Iron, Lead, Silver dross = Impure Character Ezekiel 22:20-21
• Water = Holy Spirit / Everlasting Life John 7:39, 4:14, Rev. 22:17, Eph. 5:26
• Waters = Inhabited area/people, nations Revelation 17:15
• Fire = Holy Spirit Luke 3:16
• Tree = Cross; People / Nation Deut. 21:22-23, Psalm 92:12, 37:35,
• Seed = Descendents / Jesus Romans 9:8, Galatians 3:16
• Fruit = Works / Actions Galatians 5:22
• Fig Tree = A Nation that should bear fruit Luke 13:6-9
• Vineyard = Church that should bear fruit Luke 20:9-16
• Field = World Matthew 13:38, John 4:35
• Harvest = End of World Matthew 13:39
• Reapers = Angels Matthew 13:39
• Thorns / Thorny Ground = Cares of this life Mark 4:18-19
• Stars=Angels/messengers = Revelation 1:16, 20; 12:4, 7-9; Job 38:7
• Jordan = death Romans 6:4, Deuteronomy 4:22
• Mountains = Political or religio-political powers Isaiah 2:2, 3; Jeremiah 17:3; 31:23; 51:24, 25; Ezekiel 17:22, 23; Daniel 2:35, 44, 45
• Rock = Jesus/truth 1 Corinthians 10:4; Isaiah 8:13, 14; Romans 9:33; Matthew 7:24
• Sun = Jesus/the gospel Psalm 84:11; Malachi 4:2; Matthew 17:2; John 8:12; 9:5
• Winds=Strife/commotion/"winds of war"Jeremiah 25:31-33; 49:36, 37; 4:11-13; Zechariah 7:14

Miscellaneous Objects
• Lamp = Word of God Psalm 119:105
• Oil = Holy Spirit Zechariah 4:2-6; Revelation 4:5
• Sword = Word of God Ephesians 6:17; Hebrews 4:12
• Bread = Word of God John 6:35, 51, 52, 63
• Wine=blood/covenant/doctrines Luke 5:37
• Honey = happy life Ezekiel 20:6, Deuteronomy 8:8-9
• Clothing = Character Isaiah 64:6, Isaiah 59:6
• Crown = A Glorious Ruler or Rulership Proverbs 16:31, Isaiah 28:5, Isaiah 62:3
• Ring = Authority Genesis 41:42-43, Esther 3:10-11
• Angel = Messenger Daniel 8:16; 9:21; Luke 1:19, 26; Hebrews 1:14
• Babylon = apostasy/confusion/rebellion Gen. 10:8-10; 11:6-9; Rev. 18:2, 3; 17:1-5
• Mark = Sign or seal of approval or disapproval Ezekiel 9:4; Romans 4:11; Revelation 13:17; 14:9-11; 7:2, 3
• Seal = Sign or mark of approval or disapproval Romans 4:11; Revelation 7:2, 3
• White Robes=Victory/righteousness Revelation 19:8; 3:5; 7:14
• Jar / Vessel=Person Jermiah 18:1-4, 2 Corinthians 4:7
• Time = 360 Day Daniel 4:16, 23, 25, 32; 7:25; Daniel 11:13 margin
• Times = 720 Days Daniel 7:25, Revelation 12:6,14, 13:5
• Day = Literal year Ezekiel 4:6; Numbers 14:34
• Trumpet = loud warning of God's approach Exodus 19:16-17, Joshua 6:4-5

Actions, Activities, and Physical States
• Healing = Salvation Luke 5:23-24
• Leprosy / Sickness = Sin Luke 5:23-24
• Famine = Dearth of Truth Amos 8:11

People and Body Parts
• Woman, Pure = True Church Jeremiah 6:2; 2 Corinthians 11:2; Ephesians 5:23-27
• Woman, Corrupt = Apostate church Ezk. 16:15-58; 23:2-21; Hos. 2:5; 3:1; Rev. 14:4
• Thief = Suddenness of Jesus' coming 1 Thessalonians 5:2-4; 2 Peter 3:10
• Hand = Deeds / Works / Actions Ecclesiastes 9:10, Isaiah 59:6
• Forehead = Mind Deuteronomy 6:6-8, Romans 7:25; Ezekiel 3:8, 9
• Feet = Your Walk / Direction Genesis 19:2, Psalm 119:105
• Eyes = Spiritual Discernment Matthew 13:10-17, 1 John 2:11
• Skin = Christ's righteousness Exodus 12:5, 1 Peter 1:19, Isaiah 1:4-6
• Harlot = Apostate church/religion Isaiah 1:21-27; Jeremiah 3:1-3; 6-9
• Heads = Major powers/rulers/governments Revelation 17:3, 9, 10
Air= Frequently used as an equivalent to the heavens, a symbol of government, & an emblem of the kingdom of Satan. He is called "the prince of the power of the air" Eph.2:2;6:12. A vial poured out upon the air denotes the destruction of all existing governments under the influence of Satan Rev16:17.
Balances= Symbol of justice. Balances joined with the sale of corn or fruits of the earth denote scarcity. Bread by weight is a curse Lev.26:26.
Beast=As a symbol, denotes a usurping, tyrannical power. A succession of men exercising a lawless arbitrary power, whether civil or ecclesiastical. Beast coming out of the sea denotes kings outside of Israel Dan 7:17.
Binding= Forbidding or restraining from action. To " bind the dragon" is to restrain the cruel & tyrannical power represented by the dragon Rev.20:2.
Burning= As a symbol, denotes destruction caused by God's wrath:"for our God is a consuming fire," Heb. 12:29; etc, etc;etc.
Candlestick, or Lamp= is sometimes the symbol of government, howeverin most cases it denotes spiritual authority Zech.4:2-6. It frequently affords instructions respecting the removal of ignorance, or calling for repentance Rev2:5.
Cloud= An emblem of prosperity & glory. To ride on clouds is to rule & conquer-Daniel says, "One like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven," which our Lord adds an explanation of the symbol, "with power and great glory." Mt.24.
Earthquake= A well established symbol of the political & moral revolutions & convulsions of society. "To shake the heavens and the earth" is explained by Haggai as denoting the overthrow of thrones, the subversion of the strength of the kingdom Haggai 2:21-22. Earthquakes are also signified by wars, slaughter of men, & the overthrow of kingdoms & nations.
Locusts= Numerous armies of men pillaging & destroying a country Joel 1:6.
Sun, moon, & stars= Symbol of authority in society, both political & religious. The sun denotes the chief authority. The moon next in authority, & the stars are the nobles Gen.37:5-10 for its original meaning.
Stars falling from heaven denote the destruction of nobility Dan 8:10. Stars, moon & sun not giving their light denote authorities having their rule taken away Mt 24:30. The sun, moon & stars being turned into blood before the coming of the Lord is found in Joel 2:28-32- Peter says in Acts 2:16-21 that the symbols in Joel were being fulfilled in his day & that these things would continue until the coming of the Lord.
Wheels= When associated with God, denotes the revolution & dispensation of God's government.

I have more, like Zion, & heaven & earth, but a bit too much on them to post today.

[Hobie]

Hobie, it isn't enough to post quotes ripped out of their historical/literary contexts which are designed to accuse the Catholic Church of banning vernacular translations. You need to consider the specfic literary and historical contexts of these quotes you've proof-texted. You need to understand why the Catholic Church made these statements. Then, you may not agree with their reasons, but at least you'll understand them.

Actually, there was no specific ban by the Roman Catholic Church on making vernacular translations of the Bible-an Anglo-Saxon translation was made in the tenth century. And by 1300, there were vernacular translations of the Bible in Italian; the church was just concerned that, due to the vagaries of language, unauthorized, unsupervised translations might contain serious doctrinal or theological errors. Medeival historian R N Swanson in his Cambridge Medieval Textbook Religion and Devotion in Europe, c. 1215-c. 1515, says:

By 1500, most of the dominant vernacular languages had their own texts of the Bible, although the existence of such translations was not always welcomed by the ecclesiastical authorities. This was because a vernacular translation of the Bible posed fundamental problems: Faith should not be perverted by losing something in translation. Therefore the text had to be accessible, but its use controlled. This probably resulted slowly, as ordained clergy lost their monopoly of preaching and theology became much more technical.


The earliest vernacular translations, from before 1000 A. D., aroused no objections. However, after 1200, the climate shifted. There was no specific ban on vernacular translations of the Bible, but there was wariness about the nature of any translation and their use.


Swanson continues:

How much access did people have to the Bible? The idea of a Bible-less church may seem strange, but it is likely that full Bibles were rarely encountered. They would be found in universities with theology faculties, and in teaching establishments of the regular religious orders [monks], but most places did not need them; church service books would provide all the scripture passages required for such purposes. Apart from the Latin texts themselves, access to the Bible was gained in many ways. Sermons expounded the texts. There were also "books of hours," stained glass windows and mystery plays.

Regarding literacy, Swanson writes:

The strictures regarding the Bible apply to most books. Yet to deal with books raises the question of literacy, and the fact is that medieval European society was not one of mass literacy. In the twelfth and thirteenth centuries, reading and writing, especially writing, were restricted skills, although they became more common later. Reading may have been more widespread than writing, and would inevitably increase as vernacular literatures themselves developed. . . .The availability of formal education to teach reading and writing, especially education in Latin, was limited, but expanded considerably over the centuries. . . .

In medieval Europe, most people, including not a few priests, were illiterate. So even had Bibles been readily available, few people one could've read them. Because books had to be copied by hand until the advent of movable type and the printing press, a long, lanborious process, carried out by monks with training, books were highly prized treasures. Regardless, an education for its own sake was not a highly prized concept in medieval Europe. "Book learning," which included reading/writing, was necessary and useful only for the clergy, and a few professional occupations such as lawyers. Thus they had other ways the laity learned Scripture, from hearing it read in the service (and over the course of a whole year Catholic and Orthodox Churches read through the whole Bible in their services, something most Protestant churches can't say), to seeing it depicted in stained glass windows and carvings, to hearing it sung in chants, etc. Gradually, as the medieval period progressed more and more people with means learned to read/write a little, and many began keeping small libraries. They often owned books of hours and church prayer books, which contained all of the Scripture readings used throughout the whole liturgical year.

The Church was not opposed to vernacular translations (again, most people couldn't have read them anyway) but were opposed to unauthorized translations, and to ignorant, uneducated, or unauthorized people teaching the Bible. The Catholic and Greek Orthodox Churches believed and still believe that, since Scripture was written within the Church, a few decades after the Church was founded, that the priests, which they believe are the successors of the apostles, were given by Jesus the task of interpreting Scripture for the faithful. These Churches believed then and still believe that Scripture cannot be understood without the proper, supervised traning.

But the Catholic Church of 1215, or 1515, or 1715, or 1850,  isn't the same Catholic Church of 2009, in which nearly all members, clergy and laity, can read, and are trained by the Church to understand the Church's interpretation of Scripture. The modern Catholic Church, certainly since Vatican II in the '60s, encourages reading of the Bible (as well as the Catechism of the Catholic Church), in the vernacular, by the masses.

Pax.

My brother Lee,

 I see that you are a honest God fearing man, and I understand you dont like quotes without the whole context. But you appear knowlegeable on history and you know that the Catholic church persecuted almost as bad if not worse as the Roman Empire did the true believers after the Caesers had left the stage. Its all historical fact, we can go into the people that were burned at the stake, suffered under the Inquisition or virtually wiped out, like the Waldenses  to say nothing of those in the places further out from the Holy Roman Papal empire sphere of influence in the church of the East and Orient where we have no history or just fragments to look at. It happened, its documented by many sources, even the Catholic church itself, so you have to admit that during the period laid out by Revelation they were going after those believers that didnt adhere to either their traditions or doctrines.

Lets just look at the word "Inquisition"..The term Inquisition can refer to any one of several institutions charged with trying and convicting heretics (or other offenders against canon law) within the Roman Catholic Church. It may refer to:[1]

an ecclesiastical tribunal

the institution of the Roman Catholic Church for combating or suppressing heresy

a number of historical expurgation movements against heresy (orchestrated by the Roman Catholic Church)

the trial of an individual accused of heresy.

see also
3.1 Medieval Inquisition
3.2 Spanish Inquisition
3.3 Portuguese Inquisition
3.4 Roman Inquisition

If you want me to go through the whole history of what the Catholic church did during this period, we can, but I think you can see that what Revelation presents as prophecy certainly came to be during this period. So do we go through the whole history or do you at least conceed there may be points of historical fact that match up to the prophecy of Revelation as regards to the Catholic church's wave of persecution during the Middle Ages.

Hobie

[Hobie]

There are thousands of sources and documentation, one of the most well is Book of Martyrs by John Foxe. Written in 1563, Foxe's Acts and Monuments, better known as, Book of Martyrs, details the persecutions of early Christians by pagans and, later, of non-Catholic Christians by Catholic Christians and includes a large number of official documents such as injunctions, articles of accusation, and letters. Book of Martyrs, one of the most widely read and influential books of early American history, also explains the theological arguments of the reformers, both those who chose to remain in the Catholic church and Protestants who left the Catholic Church.. Full of woodcuts, even the illeterate could grasp the hideousness of the various means of torture that were used on Protestant renegades frim the Catholic Church. Some scholars of colonial and early federal American history claim that the popularity of Foxe's book was exceeded in those periods only by the popularity of the Bible. In the mid-nineteenth century William Forbush abridged Fox's much, much longer work (at least 7 volumes), removing most of the theological points addressed by Foxe and leaving the history of persecution. Forbush then "updated" Fox's work by adding chapters on anti-Protestant prosecution which occured after Foxe's death. Taught from this book at early age about the atrocities committed against Protestants by Catholics, many Protestants came to either fear or hate Catholics. Nonetheless, one of the lessons that it teaches is that unrestrained power in the hands of clergy corrupts both the state and the church.

      Educated at Magdalen School and College, Oxford, under Edward VI Foxe acted as tutor to the children of the recently beheaded Earl Of Surrey. Fleeing Queen Mary, Foxe settled first in Frankfort, then Basle, before returning to England in 1539 and entering the ministry. Helped by his old pupil the Duke of Norfolk, Foxe undertook to write an early edition of his martyrology which dealt mainly with Wycliffism. While in Basle in 1559, he expanded this early work to include persecutions beginning with Wyclif and ending with Cranmer. Returning again to England, he once again expanded his martyrology and published it in 1563 under the name Acts and Monuments. A corrected editon was published in 1570. An immediate success, a Convocation of the English church in 1571 ordered that copies of the Book of Martyrs be kept in all cathedrals and in the houses of all church dignitaries for public inspection. Two more editions (1576 and 1583) came out during his life and five (1596, 1610, 1632, 1641, 1684) within the next hundred years.

History reveals only one power that has persecuted Christians for 1260 years and only one power that fulfills the propecy of Revelation of taking out three of the ten kingdoms from the collapse of the Roman Empire. It can be no other than the Papacy on these two points alone, and there are far more identifying points. The enemy will always have someone he can find to dispute truth and this is no exception so lets cover the history in greater detail with a large number of historical quotes proving in fact that the Papacy did rule for this very significant 1260 year period from 538 to 1798 and uprooted three of the ten kingdoms from the collapse of the Roman empire that opposed them.

A very important rule for understanding symbolic Bible prophecy is what is known as the day for a year rule. This is a well proven and established rule by the fact that all symbolic prophecy that uses this rule is proven by the evidence that when applied, the Prophecy concerned lines up with history perfectly in all cases. Here are three scriptures that gave light to this rule in understanding prophetic time periods.

Ezekiel 4:6 “And when you have accomplished them, lie again on your right side, and you shall bear the iniquity of the house of Judah forty days: I have appointed you each day for a year.”
Numbers 14:34 “After the number of the days in which you searched the land, even forty days, each day for a year, shall you bear your iniquities, even forty years, and you shall know my breach of promise.”

Luke 13:32-33 “And he said unto them, Go you, and tell that fox, Behold, I cast out devils, and I do cures to day and tomorrow, and the third day I shall be perfected. 33 Nevertheless I must walk to day, and tomorrow, and the day following: for it cannot be that a prophet perish out of Jerusalem.”

The most significant time period in Bible Prophecy is the Dark Ages where God’s true Church was persecuted for 1260 years. Its estimated from the church and historical documents that millions of Christians were tortured and murdered as heretics, disenters or just because of their beliefs. Most historians agree this period of unrestrained power in the hands of the Papcy is from 538AD to 1798AD which = 1260 years. During this period, God’s hand was over the Church, preserving it from total extinction. When prophecy is symbolic the day for a year principle is applied so 1260 days = 1260 years. This is a very significant time period as you can see from the verses below that all refer to the same period of time.

42 Months = 3.5 Years or 1260 Days (Jewish calendar = 360 days, Lunar month = 30 days)
Revelation 11:2 “But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.”
Revelation 13:5 “And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.”

1260 Days = 3.5 Years or 42 Months
Revelation 11:3 “And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.”

Revelation 12:6 “And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.”

Time = 1 Year, times = 2 Years and half a time =.5 Year = total 3.5 Years which = 42 Months or 1260 Days

Daniel 7:25 “And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.”

Daniel 12:7 “And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.”

Revelation 12:14 “And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.”

If we list the main characteristics of Antichrist, the following becomes readily apparent and who is the antichrist becomes unmistakable fact.

It will rise to be a great power after the fall of the pagan Roman Empire (after 476 AD)
It would uproot three of the ten kingdoms the Roman Empire collapsed into
It will be a geographically small nation (a little horn)
It will rule over many people, nations and tongues (it will be universal)
It will be headquartered in the city of seven hills, Rome
It will be a religio-political entity - a political city-state ruled by a priest-king
Its priest-king will make great and blasphemous claims
It will claim authority over all kings
It will claim its power to change the holy times and laws of God as its mark of authority
It will be an apostate Church that makes the nations drink her cup of apostate doctrine
It will be a “mother” Church, with apostate daughters coming from her
It will be a persecuting power, killing the faithful saints of Jesus Christ as heretics
It will hold power and authority for 1260 years following the fall of pagan Rome
It will suffer a deadly wound that will end 1260 years of dominance and persecution
It will be revived after the deadly wound, and all the world would wonder at its revival as most saw the Papacies downfall and Pope being taken away by the French in 1798 as the end of its power, but as we can see it bounced back.

A honest student of history will have to admit that the 'Holy Roman Empire' or Papal power that followed on the heals of the Roman Empire fits all of this.

[Hobie]

The Protestant Reformation in the 1500s literally changed the course of history. It helped move Europe out of the Dark Ages and led to the rise of true religious freedom. It's original principles eventually found expression in the First Amendment of the Constitution of the United States of America which teaches that when it comes to religion, the governments of earth have no right to control the conscience.

True Protestantism teaches salvation by grace through faith in Jesus (Eph. 2:8) and the supremacy of the Bible above the visible church (2 Tim. 3:16)- above traditions, pastors, priests, popes and kings (See D'Aubigne's History of the Reformation of the Sixteen Century, book xiii, chapter vi, pp. 520-524). It also teaches the priesthood of all believers (2 Pet. 2:9, 10) and that all people everywhere can be saved by coming directly to our loving heavenly Father through His only Son, Jesus Christ (John 14:6). "There is o­ne God, and o­ne mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus" (1 Tim. 2:5). The Pope or Catholic Church do not hold the power of salvation through their ceremonies or doctrines, a true believer doesnt fear their declarations that only through the church can you reach God and his Kingdom, or that the Pope is the Vicar of Christ having the power to change Gods Law and put tradition above Gods Word.

Paul warns of this when he wrote:

“Let no man deceive you by any means, for that day (the 2nd coming of Christ –verses 1 and 2) shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?”-2 Thessalonians 2:3-5

This “son of perdition” exalts himself, and makes himself God, he is opposite of God and puts himself “in place” or “instead” of God..

We also have  identification marks in read Daniel 2 & 7 to help us identify it:

(1) It will rise up out of the Ten divisions of Rome
(2) It will destroy 3 of the kings among these Ten divisions
(3) It will "speak great words against the most high"
(4) It will "wear out" the saints of God. He is a persecuting power
(5) It "thinks to change times and laws" Daniel 7:25

Or to describe it better..
1. He will rise up out of the ten divisions of Rome.

2. He will destroy three of these kings of these ten divisions, the Heruli,
Vandals and the Ostrogoths

3. He will "speak great words against the most high" Meaning, he will speak "blasphemy" (Rev. 13:5), which means to claim to be God and to forgive sins (See John 10:33, Mark 2:7).

4. He will "wear out" the saints of God. He is a persecuting power.

5. He "thinks to change times and laws" Daniel 7:25.

It is a kingdom which is a Political and Religious kingdom, meaning he has unity between "church" and "state" and resides in Rome between 7 mountains (Revelation 17:9 and 18). Well now this makes sense. Look at the record in history and it fits only the Papacy and they have not backed away from their claims of power on earth and changes according to their 'traditions' even to this day.

[Hobie]

More identifying marks are given in Daniel 7:25. It says that he "shall wear out the saints of the most High", indicating great persecution. No reader of history will deny the role of the Papacy in this. The dreadful persecution of the Dark Ages have indeed blackened the pages of history.

Then he shall "think to change times and laws". This the Papacy has done by disposing of the second commandment (forbidding the worship of idols) and changing the fourth (the only one dealing with time). A false day of worship has been set up in place of the original seventh-day Sabbath kept by Christ and the apostles.



1,260 Years
The next identification leaves no doubts, as no other power on earth could fit the prediction. That is, he shall reign for 1260 years. This is mentioned twice in Daniel and five times in Revelation, as follows: "time, times, and an half" (Time = 1 Bible year of 360 days, times = 2 Bible years, an half = 1/2 Bible year; totalling 1,260) in Daniel 7:25, 12:7 and Revelation 12:14; "forty and two months" in Revelation 11:2 and 13:5; and "a thousand two hundred and threescore days" in Revelation 11:3 and 12:6 (A prophetic calendar year of 360 days, or 12 months of 30 days each, is used in Bible chronology).

This power, then, would reign supreme for 1260 days, each day standing for a year, or 1260 years (Ezekiel 4:6, Numbers 14:34); from 538 A.D., when the last of the opposing 'horns' was uprooted, till 1798. In that year Berthier, one of Napoleon's generals, took the French army to Rome, made the Bishop of Rome, Pope Pius VI prisoner, and carried him to France where he died. The civil power of the Papacy finally ceased and a republic was set up in Rome.