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Author Topic: Will Sunday worship be the downfall of many Christians.  (Read 4492 times)

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Offline djconklin

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Re: Will Sunday worship be the downfall of many Christians.
« Reply #45 on: January 16, 2012, 09:24:46 PM »
Who said anything about being justifed by the law?  That's not its function anyway.
"Analyzing Alleged Plagiarism in Nineteenth-Century Literature: A Case Study of Ellen G. White’s The Desire of Ages," by David J. Conklin, Jerry Moon, and Kevin Morgan Plagiary 2008 3(5): 1-29.

That study compared 47 authors with each other.  I now have 225 in the study.  The critics have yet to do even two authors.  That would require work; it is much easier to tell a lie.
---
When they cannot and will not tell you the truth on the simple stuff, why should you trust them on the more complex?

"At the end of the day, the truth is the only thing we have." Horatio Caine, CSI: Miami

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Re: Will Sunday worship be the downfall of many Christians.
« Reply #45 on: January 16, 2012, 09:24:46 PM »

Offline Beta

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Re: Will Sunday worship be the downfall of many Christians.
« Reply #46 on: January 17, 2012, 02:49:07 AM »
Seems like you can use it will....can you give the verse in Acts?
Act 20:7 On the first day of the week, when the disciples were gathered together to break bread, Paul talked with them, intending to depart on the next day, and continued his speech until midnight.

While breaking bread is not current practice in havdalah in the Jewish community, it was back then.  The first day of the week started at sundown Saturday.  So Paul then preached until midnight. It is a lot easier to do that if you start at 7 pm than 9 am.........

I have the breaking of bread in my havdalah liturgy, precisely because of this verse.

Seems to me this is ' jewish understanding of christian scripture. There is no verse giving a clear understanding of this, even the word you use for it is 'alien to Christians. I have read the Bible for many years and never seen the word ' havdalah scripturally explained or even described.
I am not denying there may have been leanings to mixed practices in the beginning but scripture does not condone them as normal or permanent.
I have never heard of christian assemblies held sunset saturday night and if such was true then there was not much respect shown to God when people sat in windows falling asleep during preaching.
The true 'sabbath assembly' had already taken place and they came together again after sunset 'TO BREAK BREAD = to eat. It was a 'casual gathering ' and Paul took that opportunity for an extended speech because of his rare appearance with them. People falsly assume it was a sunday assembly.

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Re: Will Sunday worship be the downfall of many Christians.
« Reply #46 on: January 17, 2012, 02:49:07 AM »

Offline DaveW

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Re: Will Sunday worship be the downfall of many Christians.
« Reply #47 on: January 17, 2012, 04:30:06 AM »
Quote
Seems to me this is ' jewish understanding of christian scripture.

Exactly.  You seem to make that out to be a bad thing. Fact is that the entire scriptures were written BY Jews and much of it (with the exception of Luke, Acts and most of Paul's letters) are written TO Jews.  Even those exceptions still have a LOT of Jewish cultural understanding as a given. 
Quote
There is no verse giving a clear understanding of this, even the word you use for it is 'alien to Christians. I have read the Bible for many years and never seen the word ' havdalah scripturally explained or even described.

Of course not, because EVERYONE back then understood that.

People may decry the loss of Saturday as the Sabbath; but that was only one of a whole slew of things lost as the church INTENTIONALLY left Judaism and the cultural and theological slant and process of the Jews. That happened in the wake of the Bar Kochba revolt (135 ad)

The same process you decry in changing the Sabbath is what you are leaning on for the rest of the stuff.

Offline Beta

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Re: Will Sunday worship be the downfall of many Christians.
« Reply #48 on: January 17, 2012, 09:54:44 PM »
Quote
Seems to me this is ' jewish understanding of christian scripture.

Exactly.  You seem to make that out to be a bad thing. Fact is that the entire scriptures were written BY Jews and much of it (with the exception of Luke, Acts and most of Paul's letters) are written TO Jews.  Even those exceptions still have a LOT of Jewish cultural understanding as a given. 
Quote
There is no verse giving a clear understanding of this, even the word you use for it is 'alien to Christians. I have read the Bible for many years and never seen the word ' havdalah scripturally explained or even described.

Of course not, because EVERYONE back then understood that.

People may decry the loss of Saturday as the Sabbath; but that was only one of a whole slew of things lost as the church INTENTIONALLY left Judaism and the cultural and theological slant and process of the Jews. That happened in the wake of the Bar Kochba revolt (135 ad)

The same process you decry in changing the Sabbath is what you are leaning on for the rest of the stuff.

I would not say it's a bad thing Dave but it does not benefit Christian teaching, esp now 2000 years on. I do believe there were a lot of mixed practices and confusion back then because Jesus' new teaching was a 'New WAY to be adopted by ALL men, not Jews only. Jesus had already come to the Jews 20odd years before Paul and was not accepted by them. Why would all the new teaching then be directed to them or for them ? doesn't make sense ! Sure any Jew was included if he wanted to change. Still referring back to their old practices is not helping new teaching
Yes early jewish apostles played the major part in the Gospels but not based on 'jewish ideas or jewish practices. Jesus was berating much of their doings Mat.23. The disciples were themselves 'converted to the teachings of Christ and most if not all was away from judaism EXCEPT the SABBATH which is of GOD and therefore a separate issue.

Perhaps I should make one thing clear Dave, traditional christianity has got much wrong and is not really a good example of Christ's teaching. Also I'd like to say that I am not a trad Christian seeing I keep all the Sabbaths of the Lord which 'foolishly' they nailed to the cross.

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Re: Will Sunday worship be the downfall of many Christians.
« Reply #48 on: January 17, 2012, 09:54:44 PM »

Offline DaveW

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Re: Will Sunday worship be the downfall of many Christians.
« Reply #49 on: January 18, 2012, 04:28:00 AM »
Jesus himself said he was sent "ONLY to the lost sheep of Israel" and not the gentiles.

I would submit that there is GREAT benefit.  And again your statement says you see a hard break between what was believed in Judaism and what Jesus and Paul taught.  Not so, but without really knowing WHAT was taught by the Pharasees, Sadducees, et al, the charade of a hard break between Judaism and Christianity is continued. The change of the day of worship to Sunday is part of that charade.  Jesus NEVER berated Judaism, only the excesses of adding all the fences around the commands and an almost neurotic obsession with personal purity, to the detriment of community. (a charge that fits equally well with much of the modern church)

You keep talking about "new teaching." If you personally dig into the Jewish beliefs of the day; or ask a rabbi who might be willing to discuss the NT with you; you will find that not that much (at least on the surface) was "new."

Brad Long has a number of wonderful books: "Jesus the Jewish Theologian" and "Paul the Jewish Theologian." They both show how much of the NT teaching is taken STRAIGHT from Judaism as it was followed in the first century.

Beta, I do understand you are not "traditional." But in many things you are, including a slant of replacement theology. I am trying to encourage you to take that next step and lay that down as well.

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Re: Will Sunday worship be the downfall of many Christians.
« Reply #49 on: January 18, 2012, 04:28:00 AM »



Offline Beta

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Re: Will Sunday worship be the downfall of many Christians.
« Reply #50 on: January 18, 2012, 12:12:47 PM »

' Replacement theology'

what exactly does it mean ?

Offline DaveW

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Re: Will Sunday worship be the downfall of many Christians.
« Reply #52 on: January 18, 2012, 09:11:13 PM »
The Church is now the Israel of God.  Thus has she been given the attributes of the same.

Exod 19:5 Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine: 6 And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.

1 Pet 2:5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.

1 Pet 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:

Rev 1:6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

Rev 5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.


Israel was said to be a peculiar people of God, a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation.  The Church of Christ is given all the same attributes.

Hosea 1:9 Then said God, Call his name Loammi: for ye are not my people, and I will not be your God. 10 Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, there it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God.

Rom 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: 7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. 8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

Rom 9:24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles? 25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved. 26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God. 27 Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:

Eph 2:18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father. 19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; 20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; 21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: 22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.


Though many of Israel would not be God’s people, yet the number of the children of Israel would be as the sand of the sea.  This would be accomplished when those who were not called God’s people, should be called the sons of the living God.  The Church is composed of those who were not the people of God, who became the people of God. They are the children of promise that are counted for the seed, which are the children of God. They are no longer strangers, but fellow citizens with the saints and of the very household of God.

Deut 7:6 For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth.

1 Pet 1:15 But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation; 16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.


As Israel was called to be a holy people unto God, so the Church is called to be a holy people unto God.

Deut 4:20 But the LORD hath taken you, and brought you forth out of the iron furnace, even out of Egypt, to be unto him a people of inheritance, as ye are this day.

Eph 1:18 The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,


AS Israel were a people of inheritance to God, so the Church are a people of inheritance to God.

Jer 31:10 Hear the word of the LORD, O ye nations, and declare it in the isles afar off, and say, He that scattered Israel will gather him, and keep him, as a shepherd doth his flock.

John 10:11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.


As the Lord was the shepherd of Israel, so the Lord is the shepherd of the Church.

Isa 45:17 But Israel shall be saved in the LORD with an everlasting salvation: ye shall not be ashamed nor confounded world without end.

Heb 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

Heb 9:15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.


As Israel was saved with everlasting salvation, so the Church is saved with eternal salvation.

Lev 26:11 And I will set my tabernacle among you: and my soul shall not abhor you. 12 And I will walk among you, and will be your God, and ye shall be my people.

Exod 25:8 And let them make me a sanctuary;that I may dwell among them.

Exod 29:44 And I will sanctify the tabernacle of the congregation, and the altar: I will sanctify also both Aaron and his sons, to minister to me in the priest's office.
45 And I will dwell among the children of Israel, and will be their God.
46 And they shall know that I am the LORD their God, that brought them forth out of the land of Egypt, that I may dwell among them: I am the LORD their God.

John 2:19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up. 20 Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days? 21 But he spake of the temple of his body. 22 When therefore he was risen from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this unto them; and they believed the scripture, and the word which Jesus had said.

John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

2 Cor 6:16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you, 18 And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.


As God placed His temple in the midst of Israel, that He might dwell among them, so Christ became the living temple and dwelt among us.  The Church is connected to God through His Son Jesus Christ in a way far superior to that capable of being so during the old covenant dispensation. God became one of us, and therefore the living temple of God in human flesh, of which the Church is the body.  Now all who are in Christ are truly literal flesh and blood children of God.

Isa 54: 5 For thy Maker is thine husband; the LORD of hosts is his name; and thy Redeemer the Holy One of Israel; The God of the whole earth shall he be called.

Jer 3:14 Turn, O backsliding children, saith the LORD; for I am married unto you: and I will take you one of a city, and two of a family, and I will bring you to Zion:

Hosea 2:19 And I will betroth thee unto me for ever; yea, I will betroth thee unto me in righteousness, and in judgment, and in lovingkindness, and in mercies.

Jer 6:2 I have likened the daughter of Zion to a comely and delicate woman.

Jer 31:32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:

Eph 5:23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body. 24 Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing. 25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; 26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, 27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish. 28 So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself. 29 For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church: 30 For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones. 31 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh. 32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church. 33 Nevertheless let every one of you in particular so love his wife even as himself; and the wife see that she reverence her husband.

2 Cor 11:2 For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.

James 4:4 Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.

Rom 7:1 Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth? 2 For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband. 3 So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man. 4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.


As God was an husband to the nation of Israel, so now is the Church married to God in and through our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.  Again it is in a far superior way that the Church is betrothed to God in Christ. As a man and a woman become one flesh in marriage, so humanity and God became one flesh in and through our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ who literally became one with our human flesh in order to live the life we could not live, and die the death we could not die.  

Thus all who are in Christ are the literal flesh and blood children of God.  These things the old covenant nation of Israel only pointed to, have been accomplished upon us, the new covenant Israel of God.  PRAISE GOD’S PURE, RIGHTEOUS, HOLY, UNDEFILED, AND AWESOME NAME IN AND THROUGH HIS SON JESUS CHRIST FOR OUR UNDESERVED SALVATION AND EXALTATION AS THE LITERAL SONS AND DAUGHTERS OF GOD.

Now all who are in Christ are the Israel of God, whether Jew or Gentile.  Now all those who reject the same are none of His, and have no part of the kingdom of God or the gospel of the same, whether Jew or Gentile.

Gal 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.





Offline Michael G

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Re: Will Sunday worship be the downfall of many Christians.
« Reply #53 on: January 18, 2012, 11:32:20 PM »

' Replacement theology'

what exactly does it mean ?

http://www.shema.com/Combating%20Replacement%20Theology/crt-004.php



Michael G  replies

Amen Amo, good solid scripture

MUST BE BORN AGAIN.  to be a Son of God, must be reformed with a new Character, thou shalt no more be a Liar, but Israel an Heir with God being your father.  

This is the true Replacement theology;

Joh 3:3  Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
Joh 3:4  Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
Joh 3:5  Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
Joh 3:6  That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is BORN of the SPIRIT is SPIRIT.
Joh 3:7  MARVEL NOT that I said unto thee, Ye MUST BE BORN AGAIN.  

Joh 3:10  Jesus answered and said unto him, ART THOU a MASTER(TEACHER of Gods word) of ISRAEL, and KNOWEST NOT these THINGS?


« Last Edit: January 19, 2012, 06:39:10 AM by Michael G »

Offline Beta

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Re: Will Sunday worship be the downfall of many Christians.
« Reply #54 on: January 19, 2012, 03:10:08 AM »


  Thank you all for your contribution  ::headscratch:: ::eatingpopcorn: