Author Topic: is pornography grounds for divorce  (Read 47368 times)

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Offline chosenone

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Re: is pornography grounds for divorce
« Reply #140 on: Sun May 10, 2009 - 04:34:20 »
We know what the Bible says about sin.
We also know the reality of our culture on earth, good and bad.

Yes, porno is sin.  Jesus said if you look at another with lust, you have committed adultery with her in your heart.  If that is grounds for divorce......97% of Christians would be divorced.  I think it is sin that needs to be squashed.

The reality of a woman divorcing her husband for looking at porn is arguable but not realistic.....even with Christians.  Hate to say it......but we all know the sick world we live in.  There are ALWAYS underlying reasons why people get divorced.  Sometimes, I think we as Christians want to pretend we live in this sheltered world......but we don't....its the same sick society we all live in.  Where same sex marriages are OK & women are almost naked in commercials, drug use is an every day occurence, & celebrities are in rehab and are glorified because of it.  We as Christians are in this world.........not of it.


 I'm sorry but you cannot say that 97% of Christian guys look at porn. That is just simply not true. My husband never looks at porn and nor did my first husband and neither does my adult son. I have many Christian female friends and none of their husband do either.The only case that I know of personally was a Christian lady whose non Christian husband was looking at porn and they are now divorced.

That is a very sweeping statement. Even if it were true it is still sexual immorality and long term and unrepentant use of porn would give grounds for divorce in my opinion.Just because it is getting more common doesn't make it acceptable. After all adultery is quite common now but that doesn't mean that it isn't still grounds for divorce.

So, should we take your opinion or God's Word?
 

It depends on whether you consider looking at porn as sexual immorality or not. Jesus used the word 'pornea' as the reason he gives for allowance for divorce. That word means many different types of sexually immorality and certainly not just adultery itself.

To me, if someone is repeatedly looking at porn, probably masturbating while he is actually looking at it,probably imagining that he is having sex with these women while he is having sex with his wife, then that is sexually immorality.

If you don't think it is, then what is it?

Porn is lust.  Looking at a woman too long on the street is lust.  If "adultery in the heart" is grounds for divorce, almost every couple has grounds for divorce.

Lust is not physical adultery.  Is it sinful?  Yes.  Grounds for divorce?  I don't believe so.  If it is, virtually every woman on this planet has grounds for divorce unless their husbands are blind.
 

 To me that long term use of porn that is totally unrepentant and deliberate and that the person wont even attempt to stop is a totally different thing from looking at a lady for a few seconds too long.(although some men are also very careful about not doing that)
.
Porn usage to me is being unfaithful even if there is no actual physical contact.

It doesn't really matter to me whether anyone agree or not,it is only my opinion.  We have seen from posts that it can and does destroy wives and marriages. That is why Satan loves to get people hooked on to it because it is so destructive. 
Porn use is sexually immoral, and The Holy spirit withdraws when a person does it. I have heard people tell me that from experience.

But any scripture to back up "your experience?"


 it is what others who have experienced that have told me. The Holy Spirit in us will not look at porn so of course he will withdraw.Of course the Bible does not say "If you look on the internet at porn I will withdraw from you" Our bodies are supposed to be a temple of the Holy Spirit.if we keep committing sexual immorality of any sort God will not stick around while we are doing it.
Gary you are not being realistic if you want a verse for every little tiny thing. Things such as porn on the internet or in DVDs or videos etc weren't around when the bible was written but sexual sin were spoken about in no uncertain terms.Looking at porn is a sin and is 100% to do with sex. What do you think Paul would have written to those who repeatedly do this?. He wouldn't have minced his words I am sure. He never did.  If a husbands porn use is destroying his wife and deeply affecting his kids then why would God want her to stay?
A lady who I know is a case in point. her husband used to look at porn including going onto swingers sites, when she was out at Church meetings and his two kids were running around in the room playing.  They were about 2 and four at the time. When she divorced him, the judge saw it as being so serious that the man was only allowed supervised visits once a week with his children.
Strange how a judge who isnt a christian sees it as so serious when even some Christians seem to think that a wife and her children should have to live in an intolerable situation for years and do nothing to protect themselves. This isnt just something that is not that bad, it is serious sexual sin and many women have said that it feels just as bad as if he has physically committed adultery. In fact some say it is worse becuase it is with many women and not just with one.
Just becuase he isnt physically touching them, he is in His mind and that is so terribly hurtful for the spouse. No one should have to put up with being hurt demeaned and destroyed by anothers sin.

Isn't a tiny thing to say definitively that the Holy Spirit withdraws from someone based on the words of others, but not the Word of God.  Neither is it a tiny thing to say demons can be transmitted via sinful sexual behavior, etc,etc.

I ask for scripture, because I see a lot of things that you say as truth are based on the experience of others or some ministry, but not God's Word.  And not just in this thread, but others as well. 


 It isnt one ministry it is many deliverance ministries worldwide who have learnt certain things about delivering people who have been involved in porn, and other sexual sin of any kind. If others arent interested in listening of the experiences of these people or of what those who have had deliverance in this area have to say then that is up to them.Most Christisn have absolutel;y no experience of deliverance of any kind and I think that is sad and is also disobeying Gods instruction to heal and deliver.

The Bible expressly forbids lusting after a woman,(whch is what porn is after all) sex before marriage, sex with anyone who we are not married to, etc etc. The eyes are the window to our soul. if we allow rubbish in then guess what, The Holy Spirit doesnt hang around.
To look at porn with no sense of how bad it is, or how damaging, is a wilful sin, it is up to us if we carry on but if we do there are always consequenses. One of these is that it deeply affects our relationship with God, and another is that we can loose our families and destroy our lives and others lives.We can destroy our marriages and God holds us responsible for what we do to others.

I find it quite significant that those here who deny the seriousness of it, or that a woman who has almost had her life destroyed by it  can actually be allowed to leave the person who has done that, are men.
The women who have posted before have been ignored. THEY are the ones who know what devastation it has bought to their lives children and marriages.

 I thank God daily that I have a godly husband who knows that porn is something that God hates and who has very high morals in this area. One of the reasons that I fell in love with him. Men really are not helpless in this area. Looking at porn is a choice, staring at other women for far too long is a choice. I would never dream of staring at another guy, I love and respect my husband far too much for that.
.. We cannot avoid seeing people but we dont have to stare or lust after them.  We can turn away. Job made a covenant with his eyes not to look lustfully at another woman. if he can do it why cant we?

However I am not comparing the temptation to look at a woman in the street with long term deliberate use of porn, which is what this post is all about..


Gary maybe you can give me specific verses where it says that men can committ any type of sexual sin and their wives can do nothing about it to protect themselves and their children. God surely expects us to have common sense . Not every sin that we have today is mentioned in the Bible(the word porn wasnt used then) but if a sin is so serious that it breaks up marriages, and destroys people spiritually and emotionally , then that is one that we have to stop.If a man wont stop it,  after he is challenged and given boundaries, then to leave may be the only option for some women and her children as it was for the lady that I used to know.

Offline browneyes

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Re: is pornography grounds for divorce
« Reply #141 on: Sun May 10, 2009 - 06:44:48 »

Porn is lust.  Looking at a woman too long on the street is lust.  If "adultery in the heart" is grounds for divorce, almost every couple has grounds for divorce.

Lust is not physical adultery.  Is it sinful?  Yes.  Grounds for divorce?  I don't believe so.  If it is, virtually every woman on this planet has grounds for divorce unless their husbands are blind.
  Does God judge the physical or the heart?   According to scripture he is most interested in one's heart.  It is clear that lust is serious for Jesus went out of his way to say to lust is to committ adultery in one's heart, so don't do it.   From what you are saying is that no living man can live a life without lust.   That's not true or that would make God a liar.   I could lust everyday too if that is  what I chose, but I don't.  One can see that woman or man that is attractive or very sexy, but they don't  "have" to go down the road of lust.  Every man or woman has a choice to go further down that road that will lead to lust which may be no more than two seconds, but they still have a choice. 

Offline browneyes

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Re: is pornography grounds for divorce
« Reply #142 on: Sun May 10, 2009 - 06:50:26 »
I'm sorry but you cannot say that 97% of Christian guys look at porn. That is just simply not true. My husband never looks at porn and nor did my first husband and neither does my adult son. I have many Christian female friends and none of their husband do either.The only case that I know of personally was a Christian lady whose non Christian husband was looking at porn and they are now divorced.

Please don't take this as a knock on you, but I work with men that view porn daily and their wife and family would walk through fire to say, "My husband would never look at porn". They believe what they are being told, and what they are being told is a lie.

Just because a guy doesn't look at it on the home computer, that doesn't mean he can't see it else where. (Internet cafes, work, library, etc...)

As sad as it is, some men would rather lie to their spouse than disappoint their spouse. For most men, definitely Christian men, porn is a no no. Looked down on.

I am not saying that all men look at porn. I don't. But I would never say I haven't either.

Sorry to say this but it  makes me ill to think of all the lies and betrayel happening within marriages.  Why get married if it's just a bunch of lies you can't help but ask sometimes.

Offline browneyes

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Re: is pornography grounds for divorce
« Reply #143 on: Sun May 10, 2009 - 06:59:44 »
I'm sorry but you cannot say that 97% of Christian guys look at porn. That is just simply not true. My husband never looks at porn and nor did my first husband and neither does my adult son. I have many Christian female friends and none of their husband do either.The only case that I know of personally was a Christian lady whose non Christian husband was looking at porn and they are now divorced.

Please don't take this as a knock on you, but I work with men that view porn daily and their wife and family would walk through fire to say, "My husband would never look at porn". They believe what they are being told, and what they are being told is a lie.

Just because a guy doesn't look at it on the home computer, that doesn't mean he can't see it else where. (Internet cafes, work, library, etc...)

As sad as it is, some men would rather lie to their spouse than disappoint their spouse. For most men, definitely Christian men, porn is a no no. Looked down on.

I am not saying that all men look at porn. I don't. But I would never say I haven't either.

  If men look at porn in secret and their wives have no idea then they are also deceiving and lying as well as looking at porn.
yes I am sure that many non christian guys do it, to the world it is quite normal, after all, 'everyone does it' they will say. Also I know that there are many Christian men who do   also,However the women I know have husbands who don't do it.

. My hubby works at home and hates porn. he of course has the same struggles as any man but he is very strict about even seeing scantily clad women on the television and refuses to see any film with sex or partially clad women in it. he is very godly man. My ex also worked in a place where it wouldn't have been possible to do that at work and certainly never did it at home.
Christian guys are obviously a target for Satan in this area but to imply that 97% look at porn (and I am talking about regular use of porn)doesn't stand up to studies that have been done.

if any man who I was married to do regularly did it and wasn't prepared to even consider stopping or admit that is was wrong, then I would see it was a reason to divorce, for sexual immorality.Others don't agree, but as we have heard here from others, it destroys lives and marriages. If the person doing it wants to destroy their lives that's is their business but why let it destroy their spouses and children's as well?.

If, a man or woman is looking at porn or watchng it and has self pleasing sex to it, then have they not committed adultery?  A one time offender be divorced over it, most likely not.  A regular user who is pretty much engaging in sex with the porn star with the exception of body parts and fluid being exchanged is adultery.  It's like a woman or man having  sex with dozens of different on people.   You are no longer going to bed with just your spouse, but all those porn stars they had sex with too.  I'd call it adultery.

Offline Mac

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Re: is pornography grounds for divorce
« Reply #144 on: Sun May 10, 2009 - 07:15:54 »
Sorry to say this but it  makes me ill to think of all the lies and betrayel happening within marriages.  Why get married if it's just a bunch of lies you can't help but ask sometimes.

Yep. It is almost like it is part of life today to lie and deceive your spouse. My wife and I made an agreement/vow that we would never lie to each other. NEVER. It has been difficult at times.. (i.e. trying to hide surprise parties, gifts, etc...) But in the end, we have held to it.

I watch so many people just lie about everything. I know they are telling a lie. They know they're telling a lie. But if you call them on it, it's as if you have no right to say, "Hey, stop lying to me." It is a real problem with the youth today. I have 4 children ranging in age from 17 to 12. My 3 oldest would rather lie than tell the truth it seems. They will lie even when they have been caught in a lie. It is really amazing.

But, back to what you posted, it is sad. But in today's culture, the rules are:

Don't get married unless you have had sex. "You wouldn't by a car without driving it."
What the harm in a little white lie? "What they won't know can't hurt them."
Always have an "extra" on the side. "A stupid man only has one woman."

And my favorite...
"My personal life is really none of your business. This is about our relationship.. Not my old ones. But if you must know, it's only been a couple of guys/gals."

Translation:
I have had multiple partners. I know you would frown on that so I will not tell him/her about it.

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Re: is pornography grounds for divorce
« Reply #144 on: Sun May 10, 2009 - 07:15:54 »



Offline Mac

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Re: is pornography grounds for divorce
« Reply #145 on: Sun May 10, 2009 - 07:36:54 »
Isn't a tiny thing to say definitively that the Holy Spirit withdraws from someone based on the words of others, but not the Word of God.  Neither is it a tiny thing to say demons can be transmitted via sinful sexual behavior, etc,etc.

I agree. However, I think this is the issue that will plague us (Christians) until we are laying at the feet of Jesus in Heaven.

We know that a sin is a sin. There really is no "scale" when it comes to sin. Not in Gods eyes anyway. We have a hard time looking at sin that way. But to God, a liar is the same as a murderer. An adulterer is the same as a thief. And so on, and so on...

What we have to come to grips with is this, Can we openly sin, daily, and expect the Lord to stay (dwell) with in us? What you see as truth really depends on your "Denominational" teachings and beliefs. You have the once saved always saved crowd. Then you have the crowd that believes salvation is given (earned) upon death as long as you have fought the good fight. You have people who believe that as long as you treat others as you want to be treated, all is good.

Who is right and who is wrong? For me, it is like this. I believe the Lord dwells within us. I believe we are all sinners. I believe that when we sin, the Holy Spirit within us is grieved. That is why we are convicted in our thoughts and prayers. However, I do not believe it is possible to LIVE in sin everyday and be a saved, born again Christian. See 1 John Chapter 3.

 4Everyone who sins breaks the law; in fact, sin is lawlessness. 5But you know that he appeared so that he might take away our sins. And in him is no sin. 6No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him.

 7Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray. He who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous. 8He who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil's work. 9No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God. 10This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother.
[/b]

So, what does this mean to me? It means that if a man/woman is living in sin everyday, the same sin life(porn, adultery, etc..), they have never known the Lord. That is scriptural. I don't think the Holy Spirit flees. The bible says that He will not leave or forsake you. Once you become His child, nothing will pluck you away from Him.

Anyone who professes to be a Christian, but there is no difference in their life than that of a lost or unsaved person, something is amiss. Your life will be changed when you accept Christ as your Lord and Savior.

We all sin. Yes. But if we profess to have Christ within us, living in sin is not an option.
« Last Edit: Sun May 10, 2009 - 08:38:06 by Mac »

Offline chosenone

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Re: is pornography grounds for divorce
« Reply #146 on: Sun May 10, 2009 - 09:47:51 »
I'm sorry but you cannot say that 97% of Christian guys look at porn. That is just simply not true. My husband never looks at porn and nor did my first husband and neither does my adult son. I have many Christian female friends and none of their husband do either.The only case that I know of personally was a Christian lady whose non Christian husband was looking at porn and they are now divorced.

Please don't take this as a knock on you, but I work with men that view porn daily and their wife and family would walk through fire to say, "My husband would never look at porn". They believe what they are being told, and what they are being told is a lie.

Just because a guy doesn't look at it on the home computer, that doesn't mean he can't see it else where. (Internet cafes, work, library, etc...)

As sad as it is, some men would rather lie to their spouse than disappoint their spouse. For most men, definitely Christian men, porn is a no no. Looked down on.

I am not saying that all men look at porn. I don't. But I would never say I haven't either.

  If men look at porn in secret and their wives have no idea then they are also deceiving and lying as well as looking at porn.
yes I am sure that many non christian guys do it, to the world it is quite normal, after all, 'everyone does it' they will say. Also I know that there are many Christian men who do   also,However the women I know have husbands who don't do it.

. My hubby works at home and hates porn. he of course has the same struggles as any man but he is very strict about even seeing scantily clad women on the television and refuses to see any film with sex or partially clad women in it. he is very godly man. My ex also worked in a place where it wouldn't have been possible to do that at work and certainly never did it at home.
Christian guys are obviously a target for Satan in this area but to imply that 97% look at porn (and I am talking about regular use of porn)doesn't stand up to studies that have been done.

if any man who I was married to do regularly did it and wasn't prepared to even consider stopping or admit that is was wrong, then I would see it was a reason to divorce, for sexual immorality.Others don't agree, but as we have heard here from others, it destroys lives and marriages. If the person doing it wants to destroy their lives that's is their business but why let it destroy their spouses and children's as well?.

If, a man or woman is looking at porn or watchng it and has self pleasing sex to it, then have they not committed adultery?  A one time offender be divorced over it, most likely not.  A regular user who is pretty much engaging in sex with the porn star with the exception of body parts and fluid being exchanged is adultery.  It's like a woman or man having  sex with dozens of different on people.   You are no longer going to bed with just your spouse, but all those porn stars they had sex with too.  I'd call it adultery.


 I agree, and yet is seems that many dont think it is that bad. it is a betrayal by the user of porn of his spouse everytime that he does it and a horrible one at that. It is committing adultery on your heart by choice over and over and over again, possibly hundreds and  hundreds of times, with hundreds of people..
« Last Edit: Sun May 10, 2009 - 12:58:32 by chosenone »

Offline chosenone

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Re: is pornography grounds for divorce
« Reply #147 on: Sun May 10, 2009 - 09:49:41 »
I'm sorry but you cannot say that 97% of Christian guys look at porn. That is just simply not true. My husband never looks at porn and nor did my first husband and neither does my adult son. I have many Christian female friends and none of their husband do either.The only case that I know of personally was a Christian lady whose non Christian husband was looking at porn and they are now divorced.

Please don't take this as a knock on you, but I work with men that view porn daily and their wife and family would walk through fire to say, "My husband would never look at porn". They believe what they are being told, and what they are being told is a lie.

Just because a guy doesn't look at it on the home computer, that doesn't mean he can't see it else where. (Internet cafes, work, library, etc...)

As sad as it is, some men would rather lie to their spouse than disappoint their spouse. For most men, definitely Christian men, porn is a no no. Looked down on.

I am not saying that all men look at porn. I don't. But I would never say I haven't either.

Sorry to say this but it  makes me ill to think of all the lies and betrayel happening within marriages.  Why get married if it's just a bunch of lies you can't help but ask sometimes.


 have to agree. In marriage there should be openess and honesty and not deception and lies. Thank God that I have an honest man.

Offline chosenone

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Re: is pornography grounds for divorce
« Reply #148 on: Sun May 10, 2009 - 09:55:26 »
Isn't a tiny thing to say definitively that the Holy Spirit withdraws from someone based on the words of others, but not the Word of God.  Neither is it a tiny thing to say demons can be transmitted via sinful sexual behavior, etc,etc.

I agree. However, I think this is the issue that will plague us (Christians) until we are laying at the feet of Jesus in Heaven.

We know that a sin is a sin. There really is no "scale" when it comes to sin. Not in Gods eyes anyway. We have a hard time looking at sin that way. But to God, a liar is the same as a murderer. An adulterer is the same as a thief. And so on, and so on...

What we have to come to grips with is this, Can we openly sin, daily, and expect the Lord to stay (dwell) with in us? What you see as truth really depends on your "Denominational" teachings and beliefs. You have the once saved always saved crowd. Then you have the crowd that believes salvation is given (earned) upon death as long as you have fought the good fight. You have people who believe that as long as you treat others as you want to be treated, all is good.

Who is right and who is wrong? For me, it is like this. I believe the Lord dwells within us. I believe we are all sinners. I believe that when we sin, the Holy Spirit within us is grieved. That is why we are convicted in our thoughts and prayers. However, I do not believe it is possible to LIVE in sin everyday and be a saved, born again Christian. See 1 John Chapter 3.

 4Everyone who sins breaks the law; in fact, sin is lawlessness. 5But you know that he appeared so that he might take away our sins. And in him is no sin. 6No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him.

 7Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray. He who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous. 8He who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil's work. 9No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God. 10This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother.
[/b]

So, what does this mean to me? It means that if a man/woman is living in sin everyday, the same sin life(porn, adultery, etc..), they have never known the Lord. That is scriptural. I don't think the Holy Spirit flees. The bible says that He will not leave or forsake you. Once you become His child, nothing will pluck you away from Him.

Anyone who professes to be a Christian, but there is no difference in their life than that of a lost or unsaved person, something is amiss. Your life will be changed when you accept Christ as your Lord and Savior.

We all sin. Yes. But if we profess to have Christ within us, living in sin is not an option.


 you put this very well mac. We can grieve the Holy Spirit by what we knowingly do that we also know full well is sinful and wrong. If we choose to ignore God, ignore others who challenge us, and ignore our own conscience, then at some point God leaves us to our own sinful life.  He longs for us to do what he says but he will not force anyone to do it even though he knows that carrying on will  mean that they may loose everything.

Offline Mac

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Re: is pornography grounds for divorce
« Reply #149 on: Sun May 10, 2009 - 10:35:20 »
you put this very well mac. We can grieve the Holy Spirit by what we knowingly do that we also know full well is sinful and wrong. If we choose to ignore God, ignore others who challenge us, and ignore our own conscience, then at some point God leaves us to our own sinful life.  He longs for us to do what he says but he will not force anyone to do it even though he knows that carrying on will  mean that they may loose everything.

I think the difference is what you and I consider God leaving us to our sinful life. Yes, this is exactly what he does. Turns you over to a reprobate or depraved mind. But if you look at the scripture associated with this Scriptural teaching, God is talking to and about people who know right from wrong but refuse to listen. Not Christians. See here in Romans 1: 18-32 New king James uses the word reprobate, while the NIV used depraved. Same thing basically, but different words.

18The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.
 21For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.

 24Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.

 26Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. 27In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.

 28Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done. 29They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, 30slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; 31they are senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless. 32Although they know God's righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.


The Bible goes on to tell us about the mentality of people in the last days. Talks about people with a depraved or reprobate mind. See here in 2 Timothy 3: 1-9:

1But mark this: There will be terrible times in the last days. 2People will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boastful, proud, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, 3without love, unforgiving, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not lovers of the good, 4treacherous, rash, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God— 5having a form of godliness but denying its power. Have nothing to do with them.
 6They are the kind who worm their way into homes and gain control over weak-willed women, who are loaded down with sins and are swayed by all kinds of evil desires, 7always learning but never able to acknowledge the truth. 8Just as Jannes and Jambres opposed Moses, so also these men oppose the truth—men of depraved minds, who, as far as the faith is concerned, are rejected. 9But they will not get very far because, as in the case of those men, their folly will be clear to everyone.


Then in Titus (1: 5-16), we learn what the difference is between Godly people and depraved minded people when it comes to the church. Notice that Paul just told it like it was here. As far as the lack of similarities between a Godly man and one who only claims to be.

5The reason I left you in Crete was that you might straighten out what was left unfinished and appoint elders in every town, as I directed you. 6An elder must be blameless, the husband of but one wife, a man whose children believe and are not open to the charge of being wild and disobedient. 7Since an overseer is entrusted with God's work, he must be blameless—not overbearing, not quick-tempered, not given to drunkenness, not violent, not pursuing dishonest gain. 8Rather he must be hospitable, one who loves what is good, who is self-controlled, upright, holy and disciplined. 9He must hold firmly to the trustworthy message as it has been taught, so that he can encourage others by sound doctrine and refute those who oppose it.
 10For there are many rebellious people, mere talkers and deceivers, especially those of the circumcision group. 11They must be silenced, because they are ruining whole households by teaching things they ought not to teach—and that for the sake of dishonest gain. 12Even one of their own prophets has said, "Cretans are always liars, evil brutes, lazy gluttons." 13This testimony is true. Therefore, rebuke them sharply, so that they will be sound in the faith 14and will pay no attention to Jewish myths or to the commands of those who reject the truth. 15To the pure, all things are pure, but to those who are corrupted and do not believe, nothing is pure. In fact, both their minds and consciences are corrupted. 16They claim to know God, but by their actions they deny him. They are detestable, disobedient and unfit for doing anything good.


From what I read, it seems you are saying that a person "loses" the Holy Spirit when they continue to sin. But I believe that through scripture I have pointed out that these types of people do not know the Lord. ! John, Romans, Timothy, Titus... Of course there are more, but these are really good scriptures that plainly say what needs to be said.


Offline chosenone

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Re: is pornography grounds for divorce
« Reply #150 on: Sun May 10, 2009 - 11:13:26 »
Mac I can see what you are saying.However, have known strong Christians who have committed adultery (such as my husbands ex wife)and other serious things, but I believe that they are still Christians. I do think that the Holy spirit does seem to withdraw for a time if we are into serious sin. I am not saying that we loose our salvation permanantly.I really dont know
I like to think that we cannot loose our salvation, and there are verses to support that, but my husband has studied this and he has found verses that imply that we can loose our salvation if we knowingly carry on sining despite God giving us every chance to stop.As for me I wont be taking the risk.
It does say in revelation that those believers who take the mark of the beast will be lost, so that is one way that we can loose our salvation..

I guess we all need to fear God, and be very serious about not testing Him out by knowingly sinning sexually or any otherway. We all know that porn or any other sexually immoral sin is harmful, damaging, and destructive and we all have the choice to do it or not.
However if we choose to do it there will be bad consequenses as there are for all such things, and one may well be that our spouse may well
leave and we will loose everything. Our choice.It also badly affects our relationship with God and make us spiritually weak and inneffective.
« Last Edit: Sun May 10, 2009 - 12:56:38 by chosenone »

Offline Mac

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Re: is pornography grounds for divorce
« Reply #151 on: Sun May 10, 2009 - 12:54:13 »
Mac I see what you are saying.Hoeever, have known strong Christians who have committed adultery and other serious things, but I believe that they are Christians.

I haven't known strong Christians who commit adultery or other serious sin. Sin is sin. In Gods eyes. However, we do not look at sin that way. For instance, if you were to ask me what would be worse... A man to murder someone or a man to lie to someone. I would, without hesitance, say the murderer. Most logically thinking people would. God, according to scripture, would see them the same. But that is one of the many things that we can't wrap our "human" mind around.

It is one thing to sin.. We all do. But to say "Strong Christians" are going to live in sin for a long time is not scriptural. The bible says we can't do that.

I do think that the Holy spirit does seem to withdraw for a time if we are into serious sin.

Withdraw may be the wrong word. You either have the Holy Spirit or you don't. If the Lord withdraws, then the scriptures are not accurate.. Therefore all of it would be fiction. If any part of the Word was to be proved wrong, the whole foundation of our faith would crumble. But it has and will stand the test of time.

John 10:28-29
28I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. 29My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all[d]; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. 30I and the Father are one."

Then we have the Word of God being truth and withstanding time in Isaiah 40:8

"The grass withers and the flowers fall, but the word of our God stands forever."

2 Timothy 3:16-17
16All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

I am not saying that we loose our salvation permanantly.I really dont know
I like to think that we cannot loose our salvation, and there are verses to support that, but my husband has studied this and he has found verses that imply that we can loose our salvation if we knowingly carry on sining despite God giving us every chance to stop.As for me I wont be taking the risk.
It does say in revelation that those believers who take the mark of the beast will be lost, so that is one way that we can loose our salvation..

Yes, that is a very deep, divisive issue among different denominations. I too have studied this and found evidence of both. It is very confusing when you put a lot of thought into it. That is why I think that it is very important to understand salvation and what it means to you.

I have seen people "caught" up in the moment and say they accept Christ. But then, there is NO change in them. They said a sinners prayer just to be sure.. Kind of like an insurance policy. You know, "Well, I can't risk it being true so I will do this. That way I am good."

That is why it is important to study scripture and understand it. That is also why we need to be in a good fellowship and be a part of good teachings and bible study. Salvation is an all in or out thing. You are either saved or you're not. There is no in between. Hot or cold. God hates the luke warm. They are just as lost as the cold, but they do damage to the Christian body by distorting scripture for their own good/lifestyle. Bottom line is, either you believe scripture or not. If you do, then you know that a person who lives in sin is not of the Lord. In fact, scripture says they're of the devil. That is VERY strong words there. But they are biblical. And they were put there for a reason.

We all know people we like. You know, that nice fellow or gal... Wonderful person.. Do anything for anybody.. But they are lost... Ohh, they say one thing but DO another. It is hard to see them for what they are. But it is possible. If it weren't, scripture wouldn't tell us how to differentiate between the two.

I guess we all need to fear God, and be very serious about not testing Him out by knowingly sinning sexually or any otherway.

You are 100% correct.

We all know that porn or any other sexually immoral sin is harmful, damaging, and destructive and we all have the choice to do it or not.

As sad as it is to say, no, there are people out there that do not think that is wrong. And they try to justify it in a Christian life.

However if we choose to do it there will be bad consequences as there are for all such things, and one may well be that our spouse may well
leave and we will loose everything. Our choice.it also badly affects our relationship with God and make us spiritually weak and inneffective.

Yep...

Offline chosenone

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Re: is pornography grounds for divorce
« Reply #152 on: Sun May 10, 2009 - 14:25:53 »
mac are you saying that if a person looks at porn and isnt repentant, or committs adultery or does something else really serious that they arent a Christian? I know a few Christians who have done awful things and some who havent repented or even admitted to what they did, but they would still say that they are Christians.
For example my husbands ex met another man, divorced her husband and had an affair while the divorce was going through. She has never said sorry or shown any remorse to my husband (her ex) but she may well have repented to God. On the other hand she justified divoring him in all sorts of ways,by lying and twisting things. She would say that she is a strong Christian and she became a Christisn about 35 years ago.

Another example,  My husbands mother has tried to break up all of her sons marriages and yet claims that she is superspiritual and  a very strong Christian and can do no wrong.She denies ever doing it. Is she then not saved becuase of her appalling actions?Where do we draw the line?

Offline Mac

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Re: is pornography grounds for divorce
« Reply #153 on: Sun May 10, 2009 - 14:54:53 »
mac are you saying that if a person looks at porn and isnt repentant, or committs adultery or does something else really serious that they arent a Christian? I know a few Christians who have done awful things and some who havent repented or even admitted to what they did, but they would still say that they are Christians.
For example my husbands ex met another man, divorced her husband and had an affair while the divorce was going through. She has never said sorry or shown any remorse to my husband (her ex) but she may well have repented to God. On the other hand she justified divoring him in all sorts of ways,by lying and twisting things. She would say that she is a strong Christian and she became a Christisn about 35 years ago.

Another example,  My husbands mother has tried to break up all of her sons marriages and yet claims that she is superspiritual and  a very strong Christian and can do no wrong.She denies ever doing it. Is she then not saved becuase of her appalling actions?Where do we draw the line?

Well, both of those are examples of things "strong" Christians just wouldn't do. I take offense to someone saying that. I am a Christian and God willing, would never cheat on my wife. Or look at porn. I have seen it, but definitely knew I had looked at something that I shouldn't have. Heck, if I look at lingerie ads without my wife, I feel dirty.

I am not trying to say, "look at me, I am perfect." All I am saying is that I strive to be like Christ. If I sin, I repent of it and move on. Try not to return to that sin. The BIBLE, not me, says that it impossible for a man to practice (constantly live in) sin and know the Lord. In fact, the Word says that they have never known the Lord. I did not say that. Scripture did. And, this is not some ambiguous type of thing. The scriptures I posted are very straight forward. I do not see any confusion in what it says or means.
« Last Edit: Sun May 10, 2009 - 15:25:28 by Mac »

Offline chosenone

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Re: is pornography grounds for divorce
« Reply #154 on: Sun May 10, 2009 - 15:31:58 »
mac are you saying that if a person looks at porn and isnt repentant, or committs adultery or does something else really serious that they arent a Christian? I know a few Christians who have done awful things and some who havent repented or even admitted to what they did, but they would still say that they are Christians.
For example my husbands ex met another man, divorced her husband and had an affair while the divorce was going through. She has never said sorry or shown any remorse to my husband (her ex) but she may well have repented to God. On the other hand she justified divoring him in all sorts of ways,by lying and twisting things. She would say that she is a strong Christian and she became a Christisn about 35 years ago.

Another example,  My husbands mother has tried to break up all of her sons marriages and yet claims that she is superspiritual and  a very strong Christian and can do no wrong.She denies ever doing it. Is she then not saved becuase of her appalling actions?Where do we draw the line?

Well, both of those are examples of things "strong" Christians just wouldn't do. I take offense to someone saying that. I am a Christian and God willing, would never cheat on my wife. Or look at porn. I have seen it, but definitely knew I had looked at something that I shouldn't have. Heck, if I look at lingerie ads without my wife, I feel dirty.

I am not trying to say, "look at me, I am perfect." All I am saying is that I strive to be like Christ. If I sin, I repent of it and move on. Try not to return to that sin. The BIBLE, not me, says that it impossible for a man to practice (constantly live in) sin. I did not say that. Scripture did. And, this is not some ambiguous type of thing. The scriptures I posted are very straight forward. I do not see any confusion in what it says or means.


 I agree with you mac. I have seen so called 'mature' and 'strong' Christians doing awful and ungodly things and have always wondered how they can do them. I couldnt live with myself if I did many of the things I see others doing. I couldnt sleep at night if I even told my husband a little lie or something small. Both my husband and I are very honest people and I find it so hard to understand the deception and lying that I hear about on others marriages.I hate betrayal and unfaithfullness in marriage whether it be through porn or sexual immorality of another kind. There is no excuse for it ever.
I am also very big on fairness and I hate it when I see people treat others so unfairly.

You sound like a godly man like my husband with high moral standards, and they are  rare indeed. He would never look at anything remotely suspect and made up his mind as a young man not to lust after other women, and never to be unfaithful to his wife.Even though his first marriage wasnt a happy one for him he never did anything to break his promise to her to be faithful.
 It is actually a decision that we can make.Is he tempted? of course, he is a normal man, but he sticks to his decision and would rather close his eyes than see something he shouldnt.  As he says , these other women arent his to stare at. They are other mans wives or will be one day.
God Bless
« Last Edit: Sun May 10, 2009 - 16:07:54 by chosenone »

Offline Mac

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Re: is pornography grounds for divorce
« Reply #155 on: Sun May 10, 2009 - 16:01:18 »
It is actually a decision that we can make.Is he tempted? of course, he is a normal man, but he sticks to his decision and would rather close his eyes than see something he shouldnt.  As he says , these other women arent his to stare at. They are other mans wives or will be one day.
God Bless

Very wise indeed. I am a normal man as well. I like woman. But, I love my wife and more importantly, the Lord more. I am not immune to the desires.. But that is exactly why I do not expose myself to pornography or have friendships with woman, outside our marriage friends of course.

I guess that is what I am talking about. I KNOW if I allow myself to look at stuff like that, it will have a bad impact on me. I would be disrespecting my wife and yes, I feel that I would have committed adultery in my mind. Because if I acted on what I saw with my wife, what would I be thinking about? What got me to that point? There is just nothing good to come from it.

I am not insinuating that Christian men and women do not stumble. They do. They can even get caught up in the moment and commit adultery. But, they will not STAY in that  relationship. If the Lord is in them, they will rebuke what has happened, repent and move on. Does that mean there won't be consequences? No. Absolutely not. It could cost them a marriage. If they were single, it could mean illegitimate children. It could mean STD's.. You name it, it could happen. But it would be a harvest from the seeds planted. Reaping what we sow...

I think the hardest thing for most people is, the fact that WE are to sacrifice unto the Lord. Not the other way around. Jesus did not die on that cross to give me unlimited satisfaction of my flesh and desires. Just do what I want then say, Hey, I'm a Christian... It's ok...

I have always had a problem with willful sinning and willful sinners. I may sin. But I did not wake up in the morning planing on a sinful day. There are many people who call themselves Christians that plan a sinful day. The only time they see a church or pray is at Christmas or Easter. Other than that, they live a life no different than a lost person. I just can't accept that. I may be wrong. But I am willing to stand before the Lord for that idea though.

Offline chosenone

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Re: is pornography grounds for divorce
« Reply #156 on: Sun May 10, 2009 - 16:20:08 »
There are also Christians who do go to church regularly and who do pray and read their Bible who do these things also. Those who I described do these things.Its sort of troubling what some are capable of.

I think we are on the same page here. I also cannot understand those who, as you say, are knowingly in a sinful relationship or leading a sinful life style who just justify it and dont stop. They are playing with fire and also with their own souls possibly. We do need to have a healthy fear of God, as well as allowing the Holy spirit to lead us and speak to us about what we need to do.
As you say again, we all sin, and we all have weaknesses and temptations but who do we put first?. God and our spouse, or oursleves and what WE want to do no matter how damaging it is.

We do reap what we sow indeed. God is merciful if we do repent and are truly sorry,then He forgives us totally and then we need to stop doing whatever it was.  We need to learn from our past mistakes. yes we may slip again but if our heart is right and we are trying to live His way then he knows that and will forgive us again.

Offline Mac

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Re: is pornography grounds for divorce
« Reply #157 on: Sun May 10, 2009 - 16:39:24 »
There are also Christians who do go to church regularly and who do pray and read their Bible who do these things also. Those who I described do these things.Its sort of troubling what some are capable of.

I think anyone who falls into this category needs to take a look at their personal relationship with the Lord. The Holy Spirit either resides within us, or he doesn't. I mean, what is the Lord doing? Going on vacation while you sin?.. Just get your jollies until you are caught or a consequence appears, then the Lord returns because you are sorry? I just do not agree with that.

We are to repent daily... Unconfessed sin between us and the Lord leads to prayers not being heard. That is biblical. You may sin for a short time, but to live in sin is impossible. So says the Word of the Lord. Not me.. Not you.. But the Lord Himself...

I think we are on the same page here. I also cannot understand those who, as you say, are knowingly in a sinful relationship or leading a sinful life style who just justify it and dont stop. They are playing with fire and also with their own souls possibly.

They justify it through their twisted idea of what a committed Christian is. There are many that believe they just say the sinners prayer (found no where in the bible), and that's it. No life change. No nothing. That is wrong. Christian life is as much about actions as it is faith. Works will not get you to heaven, but we are expected to do our part to further the kingdom of God. Living a disgusting life and claiming to be a Christian only destroys Christs' church. But that is why I believe the bible says "Many" will not make it to heaven. The bible also says many will will say, "Didn't I preach in your name.. Cast out demons", etc.. And the Lord will say, Away from me for I never knew you. It is easy to talk the talk. A whole other story in walking the walk.

We do need to have a healthy fear of God, as well as allowing the Holy spirit to lead us and speak to us about what we need to do.
As you say again, we all sin, and we all have weaknesses and temptations but who do we put first?. God and our spouse, or ourselves and what WE want to do no matter how damaging it is.

We do reap what we sow indeed. God is merciful if we do repent and are truly sorry,then He forgives us totally and then we need to stop doing whatever it was.  We need to learn from our past mistakes. yes we may slip again but if our heart is right and we are trying to live His way then he knows that and will forgive us again.

We should fear the Lord. The bible says that we should work out our own salvation in fear and trembling.

We are promised that our sins are forgiven as far as the east is from the west. There is significance in that because they never meet. North and south do. East and west do not. So yes, our sins are forgiven. But for those who claim to know the Lord but have never changed and live a life as a lost person does, I will never accept that. It is not reasonable. It is not fair to the ones of us who do sacrifice daily.. And the most important thing is, it is not biblical.
« Last Edit: Sun May 10, 2009 - 16:45:28 by Mac »

Offline browneyes

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Re: is pornography grounds for divorce
« Reply #158 on: Sun May 10, 2009 - 20:05:21 »
Sorry to say this but it  makes me ill to think of all the lies and betrayel happening within marriages.  Why get married if it's just a bunch of lies you can't help but ask sometimes.

Yep. It is almost like it is part of life today to lie and deceive your spouse. My wife and I made an agreement/vow that we would never lie to each other. NEVER. It has been difficult at times.. (i.e. trying to hide surprise parties, gifts, etc...) But in the end, we have held to it.

I watch so many people just lie about everything. I know they are telling a lie. They know they're telling a lie. But if you call them on it, it's as if you have no right to say, "Hey, stop lying to me." It is a real problem with the youth today. I have 4 children ranging in age from 17 to 12. My 3 oldest would rather lie than tell the truth it seems. They will lie even when they have been caught in a lie. It is really amazing.

But, back to what you posted, it is sad. But in today's culture, the rules are:

Don't get married unless you have had sex. "You wouldn't by a car without driving it."
What the harm in a little white lie? "What they won't know can't hurt them."
Always have an "extra" on the side. "A stupid man only has one woman."

And my favorite...
"My personal life is really none of your business. This is about our relationship.. Not my old ones. But if you must know, it's only been a couple of guys/gals."

Translation:
I have had multiple partners. I know you would frown on that so I will not tell him/her about it.

It's pretty sad to begin marriages or live in marriages full of lying.  Truth matters to me alot.

Offline browneyes

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Re: is pornography grounds for divorce
« Reply #159 on: Sun May 10, 2009 - 20:28:19 »
mac are you saying that if a person looks at porn and isnt repentant, or committs adultery or does something else really serious that they arent a Christian? I know a few Christians who have done awful things and some who havent repented or even admitted to what they did, but they would still say that they are Christians.
For example my husbands ex met another man, divorced her husband and had an affair while the divorce was going through. She has never said sorry or shown any remorse to my husband (her ex) but she may well have repented to God. On the other hand she justified divoring him in all sorts of ways,by lying and twisting things. She would say that she is a strong Christian and she became a Christisn about 35 years ago.

Another example,  My husbands mother has tried to break up all of her sons marriages and yet claims that she is superspiritual and  a very strong Christian and can do no wrong.She denies ever doing it. Is she then not saved becuase of her appalling actions?Where do we draw the line?

Well, both of those are examples of things "strong" Christians just wouldn't do. I take offense to someone saying that. I am a Christian and God willing, would never cheat on my wife. Or look at porn. I have seen it, but definitely knew I had looked at something that I shouldn't have. Heck, if I look at lingerie ads without my wife, I feel dirty.

I am not trying to say, "look at me, I am perfect." All I am saying is that I strive to be like Christ. If I sin, I repent of it and move on. Try not to return to that sin. The BIBLE, not me, says that it impossible for a man to practice (constantly live in) sin and know the Lord. In fact, the Word says that they have never known the Lord. I did not say that. Scripture did. And, this is not some ambiguous type of thing. The scriptures I posted are very straight forward. I do not see any confusion in what it says or means.


I have done a number of sinful things including look at things lustfully since I became christian at a young age.  Not proud of any of them and I repented and pray for God to continue to help me.  I am in need of my Savior everyday, yes I need him and his help  everyday.

Offline browneyes

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Re: is pornography grounds for divorce
« Reply #160 on: Sun May 10, 2009 - 20:41:51 »
There are also Christians who do go to church regularly and who do pray and read their Bible who do these things also. Those who I described do these things.Its sort of troubling what some are capable of.

I think anyone who falls into this category needs to take a look at their personal relationship with the Lord. The Holy Spirit either resides within us, or he doesn't. I mean, what is the Lord doing? Going on vacation while you sin?.. Just get your jollies until you are caught or a consequence appears, then the Lord returns because you are sorry? I just do not agree with that.

We are to repent daily... Unconfessed sin between us and the Lord leads to prayers not being heard. That is biblical. You may sin for a short time, but to live in sin is impossible. So says the Word of the Lord. Not me.. Not you.. But the Lord Himself...

I think we are on the same page here. I also cannot understand those who, as you say, are knowingly in a sinful relationship or leading a sinful life style who just justify it and dont stop. They are playing with fire and also with their own souls possibly.

They justify it through their twisted idea of what a committed Christian is. There are many that believe they just say the sinners prayer (found no where in the bible), and that's it. No life change. No nothing. That is wrong. Christian life is as much about actions as it is faith. Works will not get you to heaven, but we are expected to do our part to further the kingdom of God. Living a disgusting life and claiming to be a Christian only destroys Christs' church. But that is why I believe the bible says "Many" will not make it to heaven. The bible also says many will will say, "Didn't I preach in your name.. Cast out demons", etc.. And the Lord will say, Away from me for I never knew you. It is easy to talk the talk. A whole other story in walking the walk.

We do need to have a healthy fear of God, as well as allowing the Holy spirit to lead us and speak to us about what we need to do.
As you say again, we all sin, and we all have weaknesses and temptations but who do we put first?. God and our spouse, or ourselves and what WE want to do no matter how damaging it is.

We do reap what we sow indeed. God is merciful if we do repent and are truly sorry,then He forgives us totally and then we need to stop doing whatever it was.  We need to learn from our past mistakes. yes we may slip again but if our heart is right and we are trying to live His way then he knows that and will forgive us again.

We should fear the Lord. The bible says that we should work out our own salvation in fear and trembling.

We are promised that our sins are forgiven as far as the east is from the west. There is significance in that because they never meet. North and south do. East and west do not. So yes, our sins are forgiven. But for those who claim to know the Lord but have never changed and live a life as a lost person does, I will never accept that. It is not reasonable. It is not fair to the ones of us who do sacrifice daily.. And the most important thing is, it is not biblical.

Mac, Do you believe a christian could back slide and then return to God ?

Offline chosenone

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Re: is pornography grounds for divorce
« Reply #161 on: Mon May 11, 2009 - 05:33:34 »
There are also Christians who do go to church regularly and who do pray and read their Bible who do these things also. Those who I described do these things.Its sort of troubling what some are capable of.

I think anyone who falls into this category needs to take a look at their personal relationship with the Lord. The Holy Spirit either resides within us, or he doesn't. I mean, what is the Lord doing? Going on vacation while you sin?.. Just get your jollies until you are caught or a consequence appears, then the Lord returns because you are sorry? I just do not agree with that.

We are to repent daily... Unconfessed sin between us and the Lord leads to prayers not being heard. That is biblical. You may sin for a short time, but to live in sin is impossible. So says the Word of the Lord. Not me.. Not you.. But the Lord Himself...

I think we are on the same page here. I also cannot understand those who, as you say, are knowingly in a sinful relationship or leading a sinful life style who just justify it and dont stop. They are playing with fire and also with their own souls possibly.

They justify it through their twisted idea of what a committed Christian is. There are many that believe they just say the sinners prayer (found no where in the bible), and that's it. No life change. No nothing. That is wrong. Christian life is as much about actions as it is faith. Works will not get you to heaven, but we are expected to do our part to further the kingdom of God. Living a disgusting life and claiming to be a Christian only destroys Christs' church. But that is why I believe the bible says "Many" will not make it to heaven. The bible also says many will will say, "Didn't I preach in your name.. Cast out demons", etc.. And the Lord will say, Away from me for I never knew you. It is easy to talk the talk. A whole other story in walking the walk.

We do need to have a healthy fear of God, as well as allowing the Holy spirit to lead us and speak to us about what we need to do.
As you say again, we all sin, and we all have weaknesses and temptations but who do we put first?. God and our spouse, or ourselves and what WE want to do no matter how damaging it is.

We do reap what we sow indeed. God is merciful if we do repent and are truly sorry,then He forgives us totally and then we need to stop doing whatever it was.  We need to learn from our past mistakes. yes we may slip again but if our heart is right and we are trying to live His way then he knows that and will forgive us again.

We should fear the Lord. The bible says that we should work out our own salvation in fear and trembling.

We are promised that our sins are forgiven as far as the east is from the west. There is significance in that because they never meet. North and south do. East and west do not. So yes, our sins are forgiven. But for those who claim to know the Lord but have never changed and live a life as a lost person does, I will never accept that. It is not reasonable. It is not fair to the ones of us who do sacrifice daily.. And the most important thing is, it is not biblical.

Mac, Do you believe a christian could back slide and then return to God ?
 

hope you dont mind me answering this question. I do believe that this happens a lot and we only have to look at the way the Father welcomed his son back in the story of the prodigal son, to see what Gods heart is on this. There are many Christisns. especially those whp were bought up in a Christian family, who went away and came back.God welcomes us back with open arms I believe.

Offline Blondie

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Re: is pornography grounds for divorce
« Reply #162 on: Mon May 11, 2009 - 06:43:12 »
I believe this as well. The bible says if we say that we have not sin we are liars. It also says that God is married to the backslider. We are not saved by works nor is it maintained by works. It is true we miss out if we don't allow God to work in us and may just scrape into heaven.

I do not believe one can lose their salvation through weakness but you can reject christ and his grace by choice which is a fearful thing spoken of in hebrews and other places. This is not talking about the weak and fearful believer wondering if they are still saved (they are) but about one who having known then rejects christ in my opinion.

Offline Mac

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Re: is pornography grounds for divorce
« Reply #163 on: Mon May 11, 2009 - 10:45:21 »
Quote
"Mac, Do you believe a christian could back slide and then return to God ?"

Blondie, it depends on what you call back sliding. If you mean do we sin, then yes. Can we live in sin constantly? No. Not according to scripture. 1 John 3

People who claim to be a Christian and profess Jesus as their savior but show no fruit of the spirit, have a problem. You see, either man is right or the Word of God is right. There is no, "well maybe my situation is different." NO, it isn't according to the scriptures.

I realize a lot of people do not agree with that stand, but I can't help that. Our role as a Christian (follower of Christ) has been watered down by man. And in some parts by certain denominations. We live in a time where everybody loves the idea that we can live our lives however we want and still be ok. Well. as I said, either man is right or Gods Word is. Can't be both.

Problem most people have is selective scripturing.. If that makes any sense to you. For instance people will use the, "Drink and be merry" part of one scripture to justifying drinking and getting drunk. But the bible also says that drunkards will not inherit the kingdom of God. So, who is right? Man or the Word. Can a man drink with out sinning? Yes, of course. Can a man get drunk without sinning? Not according to the Word. So, where and how do they justify their 2 or 3 mights a week getting plastered. Or the month long Mardi Gras celebration here where I live. These people? They will be the first to say they are a Christian. Are they? Does their life show it? Can they reconcile the life they live with the Word of God? On what our life should be like if we have Christ within us? No, I do not think so.

So to answer your question... I know we all sin. We will sin until it is over for us here on this earth. But we repent. We move on. Try to sin no more.

A "backsliden" person has lived years of their life without any repentance at all. They have lived a life of the flesh in every way. I would have to say they never knew the Lord to begin with based on scripture. 1 John 3.
« Last Edit: Mon May 11, 2009 - 13:41:06 by Mac »

Offline Blondie

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Re: is pornography grounds for divorce
« Reply #164 on: Mon May 11, 2009 - 12:18:37 »
Mac I do not justify backsliding. All I am saying is you do not lose your salvation because of it. We probably all backslide a little. None of us is perfect. We are exhorted to keep following christ. The danger I feel is others setting a legalistic standard for us from outward appearances.

I was watching Love Won Out the other day where an ex lesbian ans homosexual were speaking. When they got saved they did not immediately break up with their partners but gradually began to see their error and come out from it. It would be easy to judge them while still in the relationship but God was working in them. Nobody is justifying it but they could have been easily stumbled if someone had come up and set a legalistic standard for them.

What I am saying is one should not set a legalistic standard for someone on a personal level. It takes time for one to grow. It's okay to preach holiness but the other side of the coin could be to judge others who are not making the standard if one is not careful. 

Offline Mac

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Re: is pornography grounds for divorce
« Reply #165 on: Mon May 11, 2009 - 14:03:51 »
Quote
Mac I do not justify backsliding. All I am saying is you do not lose your salvation because of it. We probably all backslide a little. None of us is perfect. We are exhorted to keep following christ. The danger I feel is others setting a legalistic standard for us from outward appearances.

I was watching Love Won Out the other day where an ex lesbian ans homosexual were speaking. When they got saved they did not immediately break up with their partners but gradually began to see their error and come out from it. It would be easy to judge them while still in the relationship but God was working in them. Nobody is justifying it but they could have been easily stumbled if someone had come up and set a legalistic standard for them.

What I am saying is one should not set a legalistic standard for someone on a personal level. It takes time for one to grow. It's okay to preach holiness but the other side of the coin could be to judge others who are not making the standard if one is not careful.

You are exactly right. Once we accept Christ as our savior, the journey begins. But evidence of the fruit will start showing. Slowly but surely, our life as we lived it before will begin to fade a way. As the Lord "cleans" us up and our walk with the Lord starts to mature.

A person will not be completely changed overnight. But you will see evidence of the Holy Spirit. Things we were never convicted of before (i.e. our lifestyle, habits, etc..) will start to bother us. There is change. It may take a season.. But it will happen.

What I described in my earlier post are people who say they were in a state of "backsliding" for 20 years.  No, I am sorry. I do not believe that. Because, if that is true, then the scriptures are wrong. And if one is wrong, they all are. No, I think someone in that position never accepted Christ as their savior. Can they change? Yes.. Can they accept Christ as their savior? Sure. But I think that the excuse of "I was Christened as a baby" or "I was baptized when I was 4" is just that. An excuse. Unless you accept Christ on your own, you are not saved. A pastor, priest or your parents doing it for you when you are an infant/baby is not the same. No, YOU must do it on your own.

Can a person lose their salvation? Well, that is a subject that as been debated for as long as it has been taught. Some believe yes.. While others say no. Both point to scripture to provide evidence of their stance. In the end, I can't answer that question to anyones satisfaction.

For me personally, I believe once a person has accepted Christ as their savior, truly accepted, that nothing can pluck you from His grasp. But the rub is being "truly saved". Am I being legalistic because I quote scripture? No.. I am not. Does it cause discomfort for someone because of their life choices to continue to live the life they always have? I am sure it does. But it boils down to this... Can a person who knows the Lord continue to live in sin? To practice sin? According to the Word, no they can not. Can a person claim to be a Christian and show no fruit of the spirit? No, I do not believe they can. Again, I have scripture on my side.

Scripture was given to us as an instruction book for our life. Do we like what it says all the time? No, I am afraid not.

I will say this again... The Bible says that "many" will not inherit the Kingdom of God. Why? Is it because we have a vengeful, mean creator? A God that doesn't love us or care? Or because we willfully chose to have our own way?

God loves us so much that He gave is only son to die for you and me... So, we know He cares.

In the end, it is our choices that will either bring us to or separate us from the Lord.

I do not believe a person can be saved and still live an evil life. It is contrary to the scriptures. Is that being legalistic? I do not think so..

Offline sahg

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Re: is pornography grounds for divorce
« Reply #166 on: Mon May 11, 2009 - 19:40:23 »
Isn't a tiny thing to say definitively that the Holy Spirit withdraws from someone based on the words of others, but not the Word of God.  Neither is it a tiny thing to say demons can be transmitted via sinful sexual behavior, etc,etc.

I agree. However, I think this is the issue that will plague us (Christians) until we are laying at the feet of Jesus in Heaven.

We know that a sin is a sin. There really is no "scale" when it comes to sin. Not in Gods eyes anyway. We have a hard time looking at sin that way. But to God, a liar is the same as a murderer. An adulterer is the same as a thief. And so on, and so on...

What we have to come to grips with is this, Can we openly sin, daily, and expect the Lord to stay (dwell) with in us? What you see as truth really depends on your "Denominational" teachings and beliefs. You have the once saved always saved crowd. Then you have the crowd that believes salvation is given (earned) upon death as long as you have fought the good fight. You have people who believe that as long as you treat others as you want to be treated, all is good.

Who is right and who is wrong? For me, it is like this. I believe the Lord dwells within us. I believe we are all sinners. I believe that when we sin, the Holy Spirit within us is grieved. That is why we are convicted in our thoughts and prayers. However, I do not believe it is possible to LIVE in sin everyday and be a saved, born again Christian. See 1 John Chapter 3.

 4Everyone who sins breaks the law; in fact, sin is lawlessness. 5But you know that he appeared so that he might take away our sins. And in him is no sin. 6No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him.

 7Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray. He who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous. 8He who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil's work. 9No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God. 10This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother.
[/b]

So, what does this mean to me? It means that if a man/woman is living in sin everyday, the same sin life(porn, adultery, etc..), they have never known the Lord. That is scriptural. I don't think the Holy Spirit flees. The bible says that He will not leave or forsake you. Once you become His child, nothing will pluck you away from Him.

Anyone who professes to be a Christian, but there is no difference in their life than that of a lost or unsaved person, something is amiss. Your life will be changed when you accept Christ as your Lord and Savior.

We all sin. Yes. But if we profess to have Christ within us, living in sin is not an option.


AMEN! MAC! I AGREE!

Offline chosenone

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Re: is pornography grounds for divorce
« Reply #167 on: Mon May 11, 2009 - 21:33:13 »
There are many young people in particular, who stray away from Jesus having made a committment to Him in their childhood or teenage years. This is pretty normal for many as they have to find their faith for themselves. Sometimes it takes may years for The love of God to draw them back, but many do come back and I believe that God does welcome them back with open arms.
The prodigal son bahaved very badly, and only really went back when he had nothing left and was in the bottom of the pit, but The Father went running to meet Him.

I believe that if anyone strays, God starts work immediatly to draw that person back to Himself, and leads and guides them to come back. I have seen this many times in those who I know.He is the God of second chances. He forgives over and over, as He tells us to do also.

Someone who is supposed to be a Christian but is living a very sinful lifestyle is different, and they will  need to stop and repent and go Gods way or I would fear for their future.

HRoberson

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Re: is pornography grounds for divorce
« Reply #168 on: Mon May 11, 2009 - 21:35:07 »
ALL CAPS AND EXCLAMATION POINTS ARE REDUNDANT!!

(I just felt like posting that....carry on....)

Offline Mac

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Re: is pornography grounds for divorce
« Reply #169 on: Mon May 11, 2009 - 23:59:12 »
There are many young people in particular, who stray away from Jesus having made a committment to Him in their childhood or teenage years.

What is your biblical support for this stance? Other than a parable about the prodigal child. There were 4 total parables told in that part of Luke. The parable of the Lost sheep.. Parable of the Lost coin.. Parable of the lost son... And the Parable of the shrewd manager. All of these were told in response to the Pharisees and the teachers of the law when they questioned Him being at the table with the tax collectors and other sinners.

I appreciate your drawing a comparison to the parable and how the Lord treats His children, but it is only a parable. Jesus did not communicate any such delineation between the parable of the lost son and Gods acceptance of an unrepentitive sinner.

Also, how do you reconcile your point of view that although these people may "stray", with these scriptures?

1 John 3:6
No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him.

1 John 3:7-8
Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray. He who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous. He who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning.

1 John 3:9-10
No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God. This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother.

1 Peter 3:12
For the eyes of the Lord are on the righteous and his ears are attentive to their prayer, but the face of the Lord is against those who do evil.

These scriptures plainly state that if you live a life of sin, you can not know the Lord. So, again, how can you reconcile your point of view using a parable?

This is pretty normal for many as they have to find their faith for themselves. Sometimes it takes may years for The love of God to draw them back, but many do come back and I believe that God does welcome them back with open arms.

Yes, He does welcome them. However, I would argue that they never accepted Christ as their savior to begin with based on the scriptures above..

The prodigal son bahaved very badly, and only really went back when he had nothing left and was in the bottom of the pit, but The Father went running to meet Him.

Yes, but it still didn't change the fact that his inheritance was gone. The father told his brother that everything I have is yours. But what are you saying? That scripture doesn't pertain to people who were "brought" to Christ at a young age? Salvation is yours and yours alone to work out. Not your mother.. Not your father.. Not the priest.. Not the pastor... No matter what they have done when you were an infant or very young child means nothing. A sinner must repent. A sinner must ask Christ into his/her heart.. The bible says that a man can't and hasn't ever known the Lord if they are living in sin. What does that mean to you?

I believe that if anyone strays, God starts work immediatly to draw that person back to Himself, and leads and guides them to come back. I have seen this many times in those who I know.He is the God of second chances. He forgives over and over, as He tells us to do also.

No. He is the God of FORGIVENESS.. Find me any scripture that says God gives you multiple chances. If you believe that, coupled with what scripture I posted above, you must believe that salvation is earned some how. You either have it (salvation) or not. The bible describes what it is like to have the Holy Spirit in you. Fruit of the Spirit... How to Love.. How to forgive your brother.. etc...

How do you justify someone who has NO attributes that a saved Christian would have? How can they have what I have? If they can, why should we even sacrifice at all in our lives? Why not just live life to it's fullest? I mean, God forgiveness is unlimited right?

Do you believe this way because you are certain, through scripture, that it is this way? That a person who claims to have Christ in them but live a full life of living in sin, is ok with the Lord? Do you believe that? Or do you believe it because man has said it is so. Of course, I would love the idea of no accountability...

I leave you with this..
Hebrews 6:4-6
For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.

Hebrews 10:26-27
For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries.

Hebrews 13:5
Let your conduct be without covetousness; be content with such things as you have. For He Himself has said, “I will never leave you nor forsake you.

Becki

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Re: is pornography grounds for divorce
« Reply #170 on: Tue May 12, 2009 - 05:26:18 »
If the problem persists, yes.

I speak from experience. It is a form of adultery, IMO.

Offline browneyes

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Re: is pornography grounds for divorce
« Reply #171 on: Tue May 12, 2009 - 07:15:21 »
Mac,

When a person who views porn knowing it is sinful and does it anyway, but they have this internal tugging at them or if a Christian is in a bar but knows they don’t belong there, they are uncomfortable again they have this tugging at them.   If, they are not a Christian then what is that is tugging at them, knawing or convicting them?   Would an unbeliever experience any of those internal turmoil’s or convictions?   

Offline Blondie

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Re: is pornography grounds for divorce
« Reply #172 on: Tue May 12, 2009 - 12:56:17 »
If the problem persists, yes.

I speak from experience. It is a form of adultery, IMO.

I agree Becki. I always call it mental adultery and many wives go through hell because of this. If a wife wants to leave because of it I wouldn't stop them but neither would I tell them to leave. It would be their decision. We cannot know the hell of it if we haven't lived through it.

Off topic I know Gary

On the subject of backsliding I believe there are millions of christians in dead churches who are not living to their full potential. God knows if they are saved or not. I don't think we can judge that. It is pretty obvious to me there are thousands of backsliders. I am probably a backslider compared to the potential that God sees. It's a case of revelation and pretty relative I think.

An intreaguing verse that Mac quoted is 1 John 3:9 where it talks about whoever is born of God does not commit sin and that he cannot sin. Yet in 1 John 1:8 It says if we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. That the blood of Christ cleanses us if we walk in the light surely proves that we do sin and need His blood daily. This is off topic as well and one doesn't want to get carried along another theological debate but I don't think you can say that there are no backsliders and they must be people who are not saved. Even the chap who slept with his fathers wife in Corinthians was still saved as he was delivered to Satan for a time for the destruction of the flesh that his spirit might be saved. 1 Cor 5:5


Offline Mac

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Re: is pornography grounds for divorce
« Reply #173 on: Tue May 12, 2009 - 18:56:38 »
Mac,
When a person who views porn knowing it is sinful and does it anyway, but they have this internal tugging at them or if a Christian is in a bar but knows they don’t belong there, they are uncomfortable again they have this tugging at them.   If, they are not a Christian then what is that is tugging at them, knawing or convicting them?   Would an unbeliever experience any of those internal turmoil’s or convictions?   

I never said a Christian will not commit sin. Committing sin and living in sin are two different things. I will use an example to try and illustrate my point.

Lets say I am outside in the yard building a fence.. While nailing up a board, I hit my thumb. I get angry and say a loud curse word. The bible says, in your anger do not sin. I didn't sin by being angry. I sinned by cursing. So, I repent... Allow myself to calm down.. Apologize to the shocked people who just heard me curse as well. Move on..

The other side of that.. I do all the same as above, only I release a vulgar diatribe. As usual. I do not ask for forgiveness, because I live like this everyday. My friends and family are all laughing at me as my fingers bleed... My foul language did not bother or surprise them. I talk like that every day...

Do you see the difference? There is one.

I firmly believe that the Lord tries to get through to us all the time.

Rev 3:20-22 
Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with him, and he with me. To him who overcomes, I will give the right to sit with me on my throne, just as I overcame and sat down with my Father on his throne. He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches."


Here the Lord turns people over to a debased or reprobate mind. Romans 1:18-32

18The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.
 21For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.

 24Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.

 26Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. 27In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.

28 Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done. 29They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, 30slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; 31they are senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless. 32Although they know God's righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.


So it is obvious there is a difference. Do we sin? Yes.. Do we stay in sin? No. We can't.


Offline Mac

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Re: is pornography grounds for divorce
« Reply #174 on: Tue May 12, 2009 - 19:36:07 »
On the subject of backsliding I believe there are millions of christians in dead churches who are not living to their full potential. God knows if they are saved or not. I don't think we can judge that.

Your right. But the Bible says we can know who the children of God are. Jesus told us that we will bear fruit are of Christ. John 15:1-8

1"I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. 2He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes[a] so that it will be even more fruitful. 3You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you. 4Remain in me, and I will remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me.
 5"I am the vine; you are the branches. If a man remains in me and I in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. 6If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned. 7If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be given you. 8This is to my Father's glory, that you bear much fruit, showing yourselves to be my disciples.


Jesus also said that it is impossible for a good tree to bear bad fruit, likewise, it is impossible for a bad tree to bear bad fruit. Matthew 7:13-23

 13"Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. 14But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.
A Tree and Its Fruit
 15"Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.
 21"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'


It is pretty obvious to me there are thousands of backsliders. I am probably a backslider compared to the potential that God sees. It's a case of revelation and pretty relative I think.

Really? What do you base this on? Are they backsliders or are they just lost people who have never known the Lord?

Again, I know we sin. But, If you have Christ living within you, you can't live in sin. I am not sure what you consider backsliding. If you mean we sin, well yes, we do. If you mean that I may end up in a sinful situation that last a little while.. Yes, I believe that happens as well. But if you are saying that people can live life for years in a life that is contrary to the Word.. Living a life that is full of sin.. i.e..sexual immorality, homosexuality, adultery, etc... and thinking that the Lord is just waiting for you to get your jollies, sow your wild oats... then I do not agree with that.

An intreaguing verse that Mac quoted is 1 John 3:9 where it talks about whoever is born of God does not commit sin and that he cannot sin. Yet in 1 John 1:8 It says if we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. That the blood of Christ cleanses us if we walk in the light surely proves that we do sin and need His blood daily. This is off topic as well and one doesn't want to get carried along another theological debate but I don't think you can say that there are no backsliders and they must be people who are not saved. Even the chap who slept with his fathers wife in Corinthians was still saved as he was delivered to Satan for a time for the destruction of the flesh that his spirit might be saved. 1 Cor 5:5

When looking at these intriguing verses, it is easy to see what the point is if you look at the scripture leading up to and after the verse.

1 John 1:5-10
5This is the message we have heard from him and declare to you: God is light; in him there is no darkness at all. 6If we claim to have fellowship with him yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not live by the truth. 7But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin.
8If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. 10If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word has no place in our lives.


Then we have 1 John 3:4-10

4Everyone who sins breaks the law; in fact, sin is lawlessness. 5But you know that he appeared so that he might take away our sins. And in him is no sin. 6No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him.
7Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray. He who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous. 8He who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil's work. 9No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God. 10This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother.


In chapter 1, we are told that if we deny being sinners, that is to say we have no sin in our life, we are a liar and we do not know the Lord. But if we confess our sins, He will forgive us of our sins.

Then in chapter 3 the Word tells us that if you continue to live in sin (no one who knows him will keep on sinning), you do not know the Lord.

Nowhere in those scriptures does it say that we will not sin. It plainly states that if we say we know the Lord, but sin runs our daily life, we are a liar and do not know Him.

I hope that clears up any confusion. I also recommend reading 1 John chapter 2. It is a good read from chapter 1-3. ::tippinghat::

 

     
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