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Offline sahg

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is pornography grounds for divorce
« on: Mon May 04, 2009 - 08:01:35 »
I am a born again christian, my husband says he is born again talks the talk when needed but doesn't walk the walk. our marriage has failed and we are recently separated, he became very bitter to me and couldn't make eye contact with me, i found evidence of adultery he says he never has, i found he was on dating pages and seeking local women, i don't know if he actually met any of them, the evidence says yes, but no actual proof, then later on i found he was on free porn sites and talking dirty with them, i couldn't believe what i learned, he doesn't know that i saw what he has been doing, he  says he doesn't look at porn or lust after young girls, is what he's doing grounds for divorce? if there is no actual physical contact? or is it just adultery in his heart, and also how he can lie to me and look me in the eyes and say honest before God i haven't cheated on you or lust after young girls, how do i stay in a marriage with someone i can't trust or believe, our marriage bed has always been a problem too, he was always trying to blame me, but i have learned how porn can destroy the christian marriage bed and i don't believe it to be my fault. it really makes me sick inside to know his secret lifestyle. is any of this grounds for divorce? nothing is in the works yet just separation.

Edited by Admin for spelling.
« Last Edit: Tue May 05, 2009 - 16:53:01 by admin »

Offline chosenone

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Re: is pornography grounds for divorce
« Reply #1 on: Mon May 04, 2009 - 09:31:32 »
i am a born again christian, my husband says he is born again talks the talk when needed but dosen't walk the walk. our marriage has failed and we are recently separated, he became very bitter to me and couldn't make eye contact with me, i found evedence of adultry he says he never has, i found he was on dating pages and seeking local women, i don't know if he acctually met any of them, the evedence says yes, but no actual proof, then later on i found he was on free porn sites and talking dirty with them, i couldn't believe what i learned, he dosn't know that i saw what he has been doing, he  says he dosn't look at porn or lust after young girls, is what he's doing grounds for divorce? if there is no actual physical contact? or is it just adultry in his heart, and also how he can lie to me and look me in the eyes and say honest before God i haven't cheated on you or lust after young girls, how do i stay in a marriage with someone i can't trust or believe, our marriage bed has always been a problem too, he was always trying to blame me, but i have learned how porn can desrtoy the christian marriage bed and i don't believe it to be my fault. it really makes me sick inside to know his secret lifestyle. is any of this grounds for divorce? nothing is in the works yet just separation.


 If he has been on dating pages and seeking women to go out with then he may well have been unfaithful, but this is hard  to prove unless he admits to it. If he has then you are allowed ot divorce him.
However the fact that he is seeking women shows that he wants to be unfaithful even if he hasnt yet dont it physically.
As for the porn, that is hard to say.
The word that Jesus uses for reasons for allowing us to divorce is 'pornea' which can mean any type of sexually immorality. This isnt just adultery but can include all sorts of sexual things. If we look at porn some would say that this is sexual immorality. if it isnt sexual immorality what is it? Jesus tells us not to look at a  women with lust , but what is looking at porn if it isnt  lusting?
Whether it is grounds for divorce I dont know, but it may well be if it is constant and unrepentant. (my opinion).


However, all the things that he is doing together surely amount to being totally unfaithful to you as his wife
and if he isnt prepared to stop I feel personally that you would be allowed to divorce him for sexual immorality. I am sure some wont agree but that is my opinion.

 If you go to church maybe it would be a good idea for you to talk to your pastor or another mature Chrsitns about this situation and what you should do.
« Last Edit: Mon May 04, 2009 - 10:52:03 by chosenone »

rppearso

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Re: is pornography grounds for divorce
« Reply #2 on: Mon May 04, 2009 - 11:55:21 »
hmm is there more to this story we dont know about.  Why are you separated?  Why is he looking for someone else?

Offline fanuvmxpx

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Re: is pornography grounds for divorce
« Reply #3 on: Mon May 04, 2009 - 12:23:02 »
Some men will attempt to separate pornography from actual cheating. The truth is, pornography is still sin...and can oftentimes be more harmful than an affair.

Jesus said if we even lust after a woman we have slept with her. According to Him, your husband has committed adultery. So biblical grounds for divorce are present, yes.

As for divorcing, that is up to you. Adultery is the only named "acceptable reason for divorce" in the Bible.

Offline chosenone

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Re: is pornography grounds for divorce
« Reply #4 on: Mon May 04, 2009 - 12:54:16 »
Some men will attempt to separate pornography from actual cheating. The truth is, pornography is still sin...and can oftentimes be more harmful than an affair.

Jesus said if we even lust after a woman we have slept with her. According to Him, your husband has committed adultery. So biblical grounds for divorce are present, yes.

As for divorcing, that is up to you. Adultery is the only named "acceptable reason for divorce" in the Bible.


 I agree that porn can be just as damaging to a marriage as an affair. Women who have experienced this say that it does feel as if their husband is cheating, and  basically he is, even if it  is emotionl rather than physical.  In his mind and thoughts he is having sex with other women. time after time. Also becuase he has looked at so many images they usually stay in his mind and he is probably thinking about them when he has sex with his wife, which seems also to be cheating.
I am not sure I could cope with a husband who was always looking at porn, and I have the utmost sympathy with those whose spouses do this.
The word that Jesus uses which is 'pornea' is usually translated as adultery, but else where in the Bible it is used for other types of sexual immorality such as gay sex and other things, so technically this word could include porn or going to lap dancing clubs, strip clubs etc. The ineterpretation of what is sexual immorality and what isnt differs for different people I guess..   

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Re: is pornography grounds for divorce
« Reply #4 on: Mon May 04, 2009 - 12:54:16 »



HRoberson

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Re: is pornography grounds for divorce
« Reply #5 on: Mon May 04, 2009 - 14:34:25 »
Let's start from the top, shall we, admitting that we only know what's in the OP?

As to the question, is (your spouse viewing) pornography grounds for divorce, the answer based on what Scripture says is "no."

I happen to believe that even divorce, if we read Scripture correctly, isn't grounds for divorce, unless I simply can't live with it after an extended time of attempting reconciliation. Scripture does not support "A-ha! You've been unfaithful and now I can jettison you!"

And so, my spouse viewing pornography is not prima facie justification for divorcing her.

The question also does not resolve to how much hurt I have suffered, or how ticked off I am. Pornography does not damage a marriage - it hurts your spouse.

What is the Christian response to being hurt? Is it not forgiveness and acceptance? Is it not bearing with each others' burdens?

Change in topic.....

The Biblical discussions of marriage reveal a couple things:

-- Your commitment to your (presumed imperfect) husband was supposed to have been for life.
-- There is an exception allowed if your spouse has committed adultery, but this exception isn't carte blanche to cram any sexual misstep we think appropriate into the stated exception. Nor is this exception intended to be a home free card either.

-- The discussion of divorce in Scripture (at least the Matt 18 and similar texts) is based on a cultural semi-practice of essentially wife-swapping, or anticipated serial monogamy, based on a loose application of the ancient rules. The response that Jesus gives is that the men to whom he was speaking did not understand the "becoming one" expectation of the marriage commitment, and in their ego and slyness, had wrecked the lives of many women. Because the only reason allowed by Moses was adultery, if a woman had been put away, everyone else would see her as an adulteress - even if she had just burned the toast. That ramification it seems, is one these nice religious men didn't quite grasp.

-- The discussion in these passages is all about living with God character, not me-first views of the world and others - especially those who could not defend or fend for themselves.

So, is viewing pornography sufficient for me to jettison my spouse? In the simplest form, no.

But if my spouse, over an extended period of time continues incessantly to view pornography, flirt with other women, and refuses to work on the behavior and our relationship, maybe.

The real basis of divorce isn't what my spouse may or may not have done. It is rather, what is my decision after wrestling with what has happened and after I have determined that I simply and truly cannot get past it.

It is true that women whose husbands view pornography often have the same sorts of reactions as women who have been through some sort of trauma. It is a blow to their guts, their hearts feel crushed, they can hardly stand up. The revelation makes them question themselves, their competence, their acceptability, their personhood. It may make them feel "dirty" to have sex with their husbands.

None of that is good and it is an excellent reason why men who love their wives should refrain from viewing pornography.

So...

The answer isn't as simple as the OP seems to make it, and I am not in a position to "authorize" anyone doing anything that isn't in line with God-character. I do understand the extreme wrestling that people go through with these kinds of revelations, and I believe that if sufficient reflection is accomplished, whatever resolution is chosen will be acceptable to God.

But it's your call, not mine.
« Last Edit: Mon May 04, 2009 - 16:31:46 by HRoberson »

Offline chosenone

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Re: is pornography grounds for divorce
« Reply #6 on: Mon May 04, 2009 - 15:08:39 »
The word Jesus uses isnt adultery it is pornea. That word means many different types of sexual immorality apart from adultery, therefore it cant be said that adultery alone is the reason for divorce.
Also if the porn use damages the wife, of course it damages the marriage as well. Using porn is both very spiritually damaging to one doing it and is also very damaging to their spouse, so how can this possibly not damage the marriage itself.?

Offline admin

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Re: is pornography grounds for divorce
« Reply #7 on: Mon May 04, 2009 - 16:00:58 »
I've noticed that when it's the man who does something wrong in marriage, many here are quick to yell "divorce!" and vilinize him.

I guess I'm wondering about that quote from Jesus where he said, "Let him (or her) who is without sin throw the first stone."

Offline fanuvmxpx

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Re: is pornography grounds for divorce
« Reply #8 on: Mon May 04, 2009 - 16:04:22 »
"Let him (or her) who is without sin throw the first stone."

I love the stone verse out of context. Especially when a professing Christian tells me I'm not allowed to highlight that they are living in sin. I'm supposed to keep it to myself apparently.

HRoberson

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Re: is pornography grounds for divorce
« Reply #9 on: Mon May 04, 2009 - 16:12:28 »
The word Jesus uses isnt adultery it is pornea. That word means many different types of sexual immorality apart from adultery, therefore it cant be said that adultery alone is the reason for divorce.
Also if the porn use damages the wife, of course it damages the marriage as well. Using porn is both very spiritually damaging to one doing it and is also very damaging to their spouse, so how can this possibly not damage the marriage itself.?

Yes, I know what the word is. It's been consistently translated as adultery for a couple millennia. I'm not sure that the word being pornea allows us to cram whatever we want into it for the purpose of authorizing leaving your mate.

My distinction between harming the marriage, and hurting the spouse, is that the marriage is an institution. Some folks don't mind ticking off an institution, but might think twice if they realize they're actually harming their spouse. When I do marriage counseling, I don't focus on the social institution of marriage, I focus on the two people caring for one another. If they can't bring themselves to do that, then there's no reason to be married.

The "marriage" is an outgrowth of the supposed commitment they have for one another. But the point isn't the marriage as a "thing," it is their relationship to and treatment of their spouse.



rppearso

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Re: is pornography grounds for divorce
« Reply #10 on: Mon May 04, 2009 - 16:48:50 »
I totally agree with this, many on here and in chruch are very quick to villinize the man which is the roots of feminsim but wouldent being a prude in marriage be sexual imorallity?  Of course feminists will dismiss this because women dont have to do anything they dont want to do but men have to roll over lol, this whole thing is a big joke and the chruch is being reduced to a laughing stock, so many people in chruch have become total hypocrites.  The sad thing is its the churchs job to point the way to christ and many people are not comming to christ because the church is so sick and people like myself can be christian without participating in the hypocracy or pandering to the feminists but if that is all you know of religion you are more inclined to walk away from christ because of the way his suposid "followers" are acting.  I dont even care to get into all this blather of feminist disertation trying to justify sexual neglect in a marriage and that a man cant get rid of his wife for it.  Sexual neglect is alot more than burning the toast.  Thank God there is someone in here with a level head, I was beginning to give up hope lol.


I've noticed that when it's the man who does something wrong in marriage, many here are quick to yell "divorce!" and vilinize him.

I guess I'm wondering about that quote from Jesus where he said, "Let him (or her) who is without sin throw the first stone."

Offline courtgirl72

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Re: is pornography grounds for divorce
« Reply #11 on: Mon May 04, 2009 - 17:42:48 »
hmm is there more to this story we dont know about.  Why are you separated?  Why is he looking for someone else?





I realize there may be more to the story, but 2 wrongs don't make a right.  However, I can see why some people do stray, doesn't make it right....but one can see.   




wouldent being a prude in marriage be sexual imorallity?  Of course feminists will dismiss this because women dont have to do anything they dont want to do but men have to roll over





Yes we are supposed to submit to each other and that our body isn't our own..so to speak.  But we also make a vow to love, honor and cherish each other and part of that is respecting the other person's right to say no.  However, sex shouldn't be withheld all the time.  I agree with you on that one.  I guess I can see both sides.  If you don't take care of your spouse then someone else could....that's not right, but that is a reason for both spouses to take care of each other in all manners.

rppearso

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Re: is pornography grounds for divorce
« Reply #12 on: Mon May 04, 2009 - 19:07:09 »
The thing is the right to say no is a catch 22 and is not really even biblical.  I agree there has to be SOME negotiation like if your on your period you might just give your husband a rim job and a BJ.  The part that is sin is when a wife just says eww thats gross and I dont want to do it and I dont have to, no where is that biblical and the bible even says when you deny your spouse you will cause them to stumble and your right they will find someone else who will (I know because I did), and I dont believe that is wrong if the neglect is done on a regular and continuous basis (regular and continuous is not what the chruch decides its what your husband decides, its how much time he can comfortabley go before he needs your attention, the same goes for the wife).  If you can go to counseling and the wife realizes she needs to do what her husband needs her to do then your ok but if the counseling fails the marriage fails.  The one exception would be if he were not recipicating the same sexual acts, the wife has just as much right to ask for what ever freaky sex act she wants so if he is the one pruding out then he is the one sinning against his wife.  To love and to charish does not mean I have to accept you being a prude, the whole love your wife thing should be the poster scripture for the feminist movement, everyone knows your to love your wife but its not unconditional just like christs love for us is not unconditional, we have to believe and "behave" to make it to heaven.


hmm is there more to this story we dont know about.  Why are you separated?  Why is he looking for someone else?





I realize there may be more to the story, but 2 wrongs don't make a right.  However, I can see why some people do stray, doesn't make it right....but one can see.   




wouldent being a prude in marriage be sexual imorallity?  Of course feminists will dismiss this because women dont have to do anything they dont want to do but men have to roll over





Yes we are supposed to submit to each other and that our body isn't our own..so to speak.  But we also make a vow to love, honor and cherish each other and part of that is respecting the other person's right to say no.  However, sex shouldn't be withheld all the time.  I agree with you on that one.  I guess I can see both sides.  If you don't take care of your spouse then someone else could....that's not right, but that is a reason for both spouses to take care of each other in all manners.


Offline chosenone

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Re: is pornography grounds for divorce
« Reply #13 on: Mon May 04, 2009 - 19:10:29 »
"Let him (or her) who is without sin throw the first stone."

I love the stone verse out of context. Especially when a professing Christian tells me I'm not allowed to highlight that they are living in sin. I'm supposed to keep it to myself apparently.
 

Agreed, that verse always gets used when someone who is sinning is told that thay are sinning and dont like it. Jesus never said that the women at the well wasn't sinning,but He told her to go and sin no more.
« Last Edit: Mon May 04, 2009 - 19:28:17 by chosenone »

Offline chosenone

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Re: is pornography grounds for divorce
« Reply #14 on: Mon May 04, 2009 - 19:13:41 »
I totally agree with this, many on here and in chruch are very quick to villinize the man which is the roots of feminsim but wouldent being a prude in marriage be sexual imorallity?  Of course feminists will dismiss this because women dont have to do anything they dont want to do but men have to roll over lol, this whole thing is a big joke and the chruch is being reduced to a laughing stock, so many people in chruch have become total hypocrites.  The sad thing is its the churchs job to point the way to christ and many people are not comming to christ because the church is so sick and people like myself can be christian without participating in the hypocracy or pandering to the feminists but if that is all you know of religion you are more inclined to walk away from christ because of the way his suposid "followers" are acting.  I dont even care to get into all this blather of feminist disertation trying to justify sexual neglect in a marriage and that a man cant get rid of his wife for it.  Sexual neglect is alot more than burning the toast.  Thank God there is someone in here with a level head, I was beginning to give up hope lol.


I've noticed that when it's the man who does something wrong in marriage, many here are quick to yell "divorce!" and vilinize him.

I guess I'm wondering about that quote from Jesus where he said, "Let him (or her) who is without sin throw the first stone."
 

Havent noticed myself that the church is becoming a laughing stock.

You are still seeing everything thorugh your bitterness and your own situation only.You cannot see anything  through others eyes, only your own.   You desperatly need to forgive what you see as sins against you by your wife and you own church (not ALL churches, just one church). Unforgiveness will destroy you from the inside and and if you dont forgive, the bitterness will continue to grow and.grow.  The bitterness that you clearly feel towards your wife, all Christian women and the whole church is oozing out of all of your posts. Can you not see it?
« Last Edit: Mon May 04, 2009 - 19:27:23 by chosenone »

Offline chosenone

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Re: is pornography grounds for divorce
« Reply #15 on: Mon May 04, 2009 - 19:18:09 »
hmm is there more to this story we dont know about.  Why are you separated?  Why is he looking for someone else?

 


I realize there may be more to the story, but 2 wrongs don't make a right.  However, I can see why some people do stray, doesn't make it right....but one can see.   




wouldent being a prude in marriage be sexual imorallity?  Of course feminists will dismiss this because women dont have to do anything they dont want to do but men have to roll over





Yes we are supposed to submit to each other and that our body isn't our own..so to speak.  But we also make a vow to love, honor and cherish each other and part of that is respecting the other person's right to say no.  However, sex shouldn't be withheld all the time.  I agree with you on that one.  I guess I can see both sides.  If you don't take care of your spouse then someone else could....that's not right, but that is a reason for both spouses to take care of each other in all manners.



 Courtgirl, his idea of being a prude isnt not having sexual intercourse but any woman who wont have very frequent anal or oral sex.
It is wrong to withhold sexual intercourse from our spouse, but if they want things that their spouses cannot bring themsleves to do whether it be becuse they feel that God has told them or whether it makes them feel really uncomfortable or uneasy inside they shouldnt have to do that. Sex can be extreemly varied without those things HAVING to be included if it makes one of the partners really unhappy.
 
« Last Edit: Mon May 04, 2009 - 19:34:56 by chosenone »

Offline chosenone

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Re: is pornography grounds for divorce
« Reply #16 on: Mon May 04, 2009 - 19:20:57 »
I've noticed that when it's the man who does something wrong in marriage, many here are quick to yell "divorce!" and vilinize him.

I guess I'm wondering about that quote from Jesus where he said, "Let him (or her) who is without sin throw the first stone."
 

if this poster had been from a man stating that his wife was probably having an affair, going onto sites to fine a man friend and looking at porn, then my  answer would have been the same. It doesnt matter to me whether it is the man or women who is being unfaithful or comitting sexual sin it is still wrong regardless.

rppearso

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Re: is pornography grounds for divorce
« Reply #17 on: Mon May 04, 2009 - 19:30:07 »
You are just spinning and blathering, I noticed you added a so to speak in one of your posts on a key issue.  your interpretation of 1 cor 7 is not what is stated, sexual intercourse is not the only kind of sex and it is not stated exclusivly witholding anything that causes your mate to stumble is a sin.  The sexual intercourse bit is just your opinion. 

I've noticed that when it's the man who does something wrong in marriage, many here are quick to yell "divorce!" and vilinize him.

I guess I'm wondering about that quote from Jesus where he said, "Let him (or her) who is without sin throw the first stone."
 

if this poster had been from a man stating that his wife was probably having an affair, going onto sites to fine a man friend and looking at porn, then my  answer would have been the same. It doesnt matter to me whether it is the man or women who is being unfaithful or comitting sexual sin it is still wrong regardless.

Offline Bon Voyage

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Re: is pornography grounds for divorce
« Reply #18 on: Mon May 04, 2009 - 19:35:56 »
I've noticed that when it's the man who does something wrong in marriage, many here are quick to yell "divorce!" and vilinize him.

I guess I'm wondering about that quote from Jesus where he said, "Let him (or her) who is without sin throw the first stone."
 

if this poster had been from a man stating that his wife was probably having an affair, going onto sites to fine a man friend and looking at porn, then my  answer would have been the same. It doesnt matter to me whether it is the man or women who is being unfaithful or comitting sexual sin it is still wrong regardless.

I think his point transcends just this one type of offense.

Offline chosenone

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Re: is pornography grounds for divorce
« Reply #19 on: Mon May 04, 2009 - 19:41:22 »
The word Jesus uses isnt adultery it is pornea. That word means many different types of sexual immorality apart from adultery, therefore it cant be said that adultery alone is the reason for divorce.
Also if the porn use damages the wife, of course it damages the marriage as well. Using porn is both very spiritually damaging to one doing it and is also very damaging to their spouse, so how can this possibly not damage the marriage itself.?

Yes, I know what the word is. It's been consistently translated as adultery for a couple millennia. I'm not sure that the word being pornea allows us to cram whatever we want into it for the purpose of authorizing leaving your mate.

My distinction between harming the marriage, and hurting the spouse, is that the marriage is an institution. Some folks don't mind ticking off an institution, but might think twice if they realize they're actually harming their spouse. When I do marriage counseling, I don't focus on the social institution of marriage, I focus on the two people caring for one another. If they can't bring themselves to do that, then there's no reason to be married.

The "marriage" is an outgrowth of the supposed commitment they have for one another. But the point isn't the marriage as a "thing," it is their relationship to and treatment of their spouse.



 

Is looking at porn a sin? if it is, is it a sexual sin? Pornea is used elsewhere in the Bible for other sexual sins apart from adultery. Porn is very damaging for a marriage and has broken up many marriages. If it isnt sexual sin (ie pornea) then what is it?

Offline Bon Voyage

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Re: is pornography grounds for divorce
« Reply #20 on: Mon May 04, 2009 - 19:43:18 »
The word Jesus uses isnt adultery it is pornea. That word means many different types of sexual immorality apart from adultery, therefore it cant be said that adultery alone is the reason for divorce.
Also if the porn use damages the wife, of course it damages the marriage as well. Using porn is both very spiritually damaging to one doing it and is also very damaging to their spouse, so how can this possibly not damage the marriage itself.?

Yes, I know what the word is. It's been consistently translated as adultery for a couple millennia. I'm not sure that the word being pornea allows us to cram whatever we want into it for the purpose of authorizing leaving your mate.

My distinction between harming the marriage, and hurting the spouse, is that the marriage is an institution. Some folks don't mind ticking off an institution, but might think twice if they realize they're actually harming their spouse. When I do marriage counseling, I don't focus on the social institution of marriage, I focus on the two people caring for one another. If they can't bring themselves to do that, then there's no reason to be married.

The "marriage" is an outgrowth of the supposed commitment they have for one another. But the point isn't the marriage as a "thing," it is their relationship to and treatment of their spouse.



 

Is looking at porn a sin? if it is, is it a sexual sin? Pornea is used elsewhere in the Bible for other sexual sins apart from adultery. Porn is very damaging for a marriage and has broken up many marriages. If it isnt sexual sin (ie pornea) then what is it?

If lust is indeed actual adultery, and grounds for divorce that vast majority of men AND women have grounds to file for divorce right now.

HRoberson

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Re: is pornography grounds for divorce
« Reply #21 on: Mon May 04, 2009 - 19:53:08 »
The word Jesus uses isnt adultery it is pornea. That word means many different types of sexual immorality apart from adultery, therefore it cant be said that adultery alone is the reason for divorce.
Also if the porn use damages the wife, of course it damages the marriage as well. Using porn is both very spiritually damaging to one doing it and is also very damaging to their spouse, so how can this possibly not damage the marriage itself.?

Yes, I know what the word is. It's been consistently translated as adultery for a couple millennia. I'm not sure that the word being pornea allows us to cram whatever we want into it for the purpose of authorizing leaving your mate.

My distinction between harming the marriage, and hurting the spouse, is that the marriage is an institution. Some folks don't mind ticking off an institution, but might think twice if they realize they're actually harming their spouse. When I do marriage counseling, I don't focus on the social institution of marriage, I focus on the two people caring for one another. If they can't bring themselves to do that, then there's no reason to be married.

The "marriage" is an outgrowth of the supposed commitment they have for one another. But the point isn't the marriage as a "thing," it is their relationship to and treatment of their spouse.



 

Is looking at porn a sin? if it is, is it a sexual sin? Pornea is used elsewhere in the Bible for other sexual sins apart from adultery. Porn is very damaging for a marriage and has broken up many marriages. If it isnt sexual sin (ie pornea) then what is it?

Sin? Yes.

I know how pornea is used. How has the church translated our favorite passage since the first century?

It may be sexual sin, but it does not rise to the level that "authorizes" divorcing your mate.

It remains that, even if we can squeeze whatever sexual sin we please into an authorization to jettison your spouse, that still is not to be the first choice.

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Re: is pornography grounds for divorce
« Reply #22 on: Mon May 04, 2009 - 19:55:57 »
I've noticed that when it's the man who does something wrong in marriage, many here are quick to yell "divorce!" and vilinize him.

I guess I'm wondering about that quote from Jesus where he said, "Let him (or her) who is without sin throw the first stone."
Oh well that was about a woman, so it's different.

Offline chosenone

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Re: is pornography grounds for divorce
« Reply #23 on: Mon May 04, 2009 - 20:07:14 »
The word Jesus uses isnt adultery it is pornea. That word means many different types of sexual immorality apart from adultery, therefore it cant be said that adultery alone is the reason for divorce.
Also if the porn use damages the wife, of course it damages the marriage as well. Using porn is both very spiritually damaging to one doing it and is also very damaging to their spouse, so how can this possibly not damage the marriage itself.?

Yes, I know what the word is. It's been consistently translated as adultery for a couple millennia. I'm not sure that the word being pornea allows us to cram whatever we want into it for the purpose of authorizing leaving your mate.

My distinction between harming the marriage, and hurting the spouse, is that the marriage is an institution. Some folks don't mind ticking off an institution, but might think twice if they realize they're actually harming their spouse. When I do marriage counseling, I don't focus on the social institution of marriage, I focus on the two people caring for one another. If they can't bring themselves to do that, then there's no reason to be married.

The "marriage" is an outgrowth of the supposed commitment they have for one another. But the point isn't the marriage as a "thing," it is their relationship to and treatment of their spouse.



 

Is looking at porn a sin? if it is, is it a sexual sin? Pornea is used elsewhere in the Bible for other sexual sins apart from adultery. Porn is very damaging for a marriage and has broken up many marriages. If it isnt sexual sin (ie pornea) then what is it?

Sin? Yes.

I know how pornea is used. How has the church translated our favorite passage since the first century?

It may be sexual sin, but it does not rise to the level that "authorizes" divorcing your mate.

It remains that, even if we can squeeze whatever sexual sin we please into an authorization to jettison your spouse, that still is not to be the first choice.


 totally agree HR,
divorcing anyone  should never be a first choice, but for a spouse who is into serious sexual sin and is totally unrepentant and not willing to even try to stop, there may eventually be little alternative sadly. After deep betrayal some cannot ever trust their spouse again and without trust what is there?
 

Offline courtgirl72

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Re: is pornography grounds for divorce
« Reply #24 on: Mon May 04, 2009 - 20:25:37 »
hmm is there more to this story we dont know about.  Why are you separated?  Why is he looking for someone else?



 


I realize there may be more to the story, but 2 wrongs don't make a right.  However, I can see why some people do stray, doesn't make it right....but one can see.   




wouldent being a prude in marriage be sexual imorallity?  Of course feminists will dismiss this because women dont have to do anything they dont want to do but men have to roll over





Yes we are supposed to submit to each other and that our body isn't our own..so to speak.  But we also make a vow to love, honor and cherish each other and part of that is respecting the other person's right to say no.  However, sex shouldn't be withheld all the time.  I agree with you on that one.  I guess I can see both sides.  If you don't take care of your spouse then someone else could....that's not right, but that is a reason for both spouses to take care of each other in all manners.



 Courtgirl, his idea of being a prude isnt not having sexual intercourse but any woman who wont have very frequent anal or oral sex.
It is wrong to withhold sexual intercourse from our spouse, but if they want things that their spouses cannot bring themsleves to do whether it be becuse they feel that God has told them or whether it makes them feel really uncomfortable or uneasy inside they shouldnt have to do that. Sex can be extreemly varied without those things HAVING to be included if it makes one of the partners really unhappy.
 



I am not disagreeing with you or saying adultery is right.  I just said that I understand why people fail in that regard...I am not condoning it.  If you are to that point where you think you need to get it elsewhere, that spouse should realize there is a problem and try to talk to their spouse or get christian counseling.  I agree that there are certain things that would make people uncomfortable...like the above stated things.  No one has the right to make you do that or make you feel like less of a spouse for doing that.  A real husband or wife shouldn't want to make their spouse uncomfortable.   

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Re: is pornography grounds for divorce
« Reply #25 on: Mon May 04, 2009 - 20:45:30 »
What you just stated is a catch 22, what if he needs you to do something you dont want to do and it has gotten to the point he is looking else where for it, do you think conseling will help you want to do it or make him not want it anymore?

hmm is there more to this story we dont know about.  Why are you separated?  Why is he looking for someone else?



 


I realize there may be more to the story, but 2 wrongs don't make a right.  However, I can see why some people do stray, doesn't make it right....but one can see.   




wouldent being a prude in marriage be sexual imorallity?  Of course feminists will dismiss this because women dont have to do anything they dont want to do but men have to roll over





Yes we are supposed to submit to each other and that our body isn't our own..so to speak.  But we also make a vow to love, honor and cherish each other and part of that is respecting the other person's right to say no.  However, sex shouldn't be withheld all the time.  I agree with you on that one.  I guess I can see both sides.  If you don't take care of your spouse then someone else could....that's not right, but that is a reason for both spouses to take care of each other in all manners.



 Courtgirl, his idea of being a prude isnt not having sexual intercourse but any woman who wont have very frequent anal or oral sex.
It is wrong to withhold sexual intercourse from our spouse, but if they want things that their spouses cannot bring themsleves to do whether it be becuse they feel that God has told them or whether it makes them feel really uncomfortable or uneasy inside they shouldnt have to do that. Sex can be extreemly varied without those things HAVING to be included if it makes one of the partners really unhappy.
 



I am not disagreeing with you or saying adultery is right.  I just said that I understand why people fail in that regard...I am not condoning it.  If you are to that point where you think you need to get it elsewhere, that spouse should realize there is a problem and try to talk to their spouse or get christian counseling.  I agree that there are certain things that would make people uncomfortable...like the above stated things.  No one has the right to make you do that or make you feel like less of a spouse for doing that.  A real husband or wife shouldn't want to make their spouse uncomfortable.   

Offline courtgirl72

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Re: is pornography grounds for divorce
« Reply #26 on: Mon May 04, 2009 - 20:57:36 »
A man or a woman is not a prude for not wanting oral/anal sex.....I guess you think you own your wife and she must obey even if it makes her uncomfortable, if it does then she is a prude...she is not.....she is the one you should most want to make comfortable.

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Re: is pornography grounds for divorce
« Reply #27 on: Mon May 04, 2009 - 21:53:48 »
A man or a woman is not a prude for not wanting oral/anal sex.....I guess you think you own your wife and she must obey even if it makes her uncomfortable, if it does then she is a prude...she is not.....she is the one you should most want to make comfortable.



 spot on courtgirl.

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Re: is pornography grounds for divorce
« Reply #28 on: Mon May 04, 2009 - 21:58:08 »
i am a born again christian, my husband says he is born again talks the talk when needed but dosen't walk the walk. our marriage has failed and we are recently separated, he became very bitter to me and couldn't make eye contact with me, i found evedence of adultry he says he never has, i found he was on dating pages and seeking local women, i don't know if he acctually met any of them, the evedence says yes, but no actual proof, then later on i found he was on free porn sites and talking dirty with them, i couldn't believe what i learned, he dosn't know that i saw what he has been doing, he  says he dosn't look at porn or lust after young girls, is what he's doing grounds for divorce? if there is no actual physical contact? or is it just adultry in his heart, and also how he can lie to me and look me in the eyes and say honest before God i haven't cheated on you or lust after young girls, how do i stay in a marriage with someone i can't trust or believe, our marriage bed has always been a problem too, he was always trying to blame me, but i have learned how porn can desrtoy the christian marriage bed and i don't believe it to be my fault. it really makes me sick inside to know his secret lifestyle. is any of this grounds for divorce? nothing is in the works yet just separation.

Well, I very rarely post, mainly because no matter what one posts, someone will disagree with you to the point of insult, and I’m just too sensitive for that.  But here I go anyway.

My ex-husband was into porn and other “non-participatory

Offline chosenone

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Re: is pornography grounds for divorce
« Reply #29 on: Mon May 04, 2009 - 22:07:43 »
i am a born again christian, my husband says he is born again talks the talk when needed but dosen't walk the walk. our marriage has failed and we are recently separated, he became very bitter to me and couldn't make eye contact with me, i found evedence of adultry he says he never has, i found he was on dating pages and seeking local women, i don't know if he acctually met any of them, the evedence says yes, but no actual proof, then later on i found he was on free porn sites and talking dirty with them, i couldn't believe what i learned, he dosn't know that i saw what he has been doing, he  says he dosn't look at porn or lust after young girls, is what he's doing grounds for divorce? if there is no actual physical contact? or is it just adultry in his heart, and also how he can lie to me and look me in the eyes and say honest before God i haven't cheated on you or lust after young girls, how do i stay in a marriage with someone i can't trust or believe, our marriage bed has always been a problem too, he was always trying to blame me, but i have learned how porn can desrtoy the christian marriage bed and i don't believe it to be my fault. it really makes me sick inside to know his secret lifestyle. is any of this grounds for divorce? nothing is in the works yet just separation.

Well, I very rarely post, mainly because no matter what one posts, someone will disagree with you to the point of insult, and I’m just too sensitive for that.  But here I go anyway.

My ex-husband was into porn and other “non-participatory” sexual activities (such as going to strip joints and topless bars) long before I met him.  He is not just a Christian, BTW, but a former minister, a teacher, and a counselor.  For him, it was an addiction - a control issue – he just couldn’t stop himself.  And before anyone says it, no, it wasn’t because he didn’t have a willing sexual partner at home.  Very much the opposite.
 
His actions never “crossed the line” into what most people would define as “adultery”, but between what he did, the lies he told about it, and the money he spent on it, he effectively destroyed our marriage.
 
In case anyone wonders, I did not give up on my marriage quickly or easily.  I dealt with his mess for twelve years, forgiving and starting over countless times.  But there came a point when I simply had to protect myself and my children from the pervasive consequences of his selfish actions.

It is not possible to have an effective marriage if there is no trust.  It doesn’t matter a bit to me whether anyone thinks I had “grounds” for divorce.  For me it was a matter of survival.



 Quinn
Well done for posting and yes you do have to have a bit of a tough hide to post anything here sometimes
Your story is awful and just the sort of thing I was thinking about when saying that so often these things are so destructive for both the spouse, the marriage and the children.
Also as you say it had nothing to do with whether he was having sex or not. I dont agree that most men 'have' to do this becuase their wives are not pleasing them in bed, that is a cop out. No one 'has' to do anything especially if it is sinful. We can choose to, but that is different.
As you say with no trust there is nothing.
I hope that things are better in your life now.
many men do this regardless of their sex lives, and regardless of how much is is hurting their wifes and marriages. 

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Re: is pornography grounds for divorce
« Reply #30 on: Mon May 04, 2009 - 22:19:02 »
The word Jesus uses isnt adultery it is pornea. That word means many different types of sexual immorality apart from adultery, therefore it cant be said that adultery alone is the reason for divorce.
Also if the porn use damages the wife, of course it damages the marriage as well. Using porn is both very spiritually damaging to one doing it and is also very damaging to their spouse, so how can this possibly not damage the marriage itself.?

Yes, I know what the word is. It's been consistently translated as adultery for a couple millennia. I'm not sure that the word being pornea allows us to cram whatever we want into it for the purpose of authorizing leaving your mate.

My distinction between harming the marriage, and hurting the spouse, is that the marriage is an institution. Some folks don't mind ticking off an institution, but might think twice if they realize they're actually harming their spouse. When I do marriage counseling, I don't focus on the social institution of marriage, I focus on the two people caring for one another. If they can't bring themselves to do that, then there's no reason to be married.

The "marriage" is an outgrowth of the supposed commitment they have for one another. But the point isn't the marriage as a "thing," it is their relationship to and treatment of their spouse.



 

Is looking at porn a sin? if it is, is it a sexual sin? Pornea is used elsewhere in the Bible for other sexual sins apart from adultery. Porn is very damaging for a marriage and has broken up many marriages. If it isnt sexual sin (ie pornea) then what is it?

Sin? Yes.

I know how pornea is used. How has the church translated our favorite passage since the first century?

It may be sexual sin, but it does not rise to the level that "authorizes" divorcing your mate.

It remains that, even if we can squeeze whatever sexual sin we please into an authorization to jettison your spouse, that still is not to be the first choice.


 totally agree HR,
divorcing anyone  should never be a first choice, but for a spouse who is into serious sexual sin and is totally unrepentant and not willing to even try to stop, there may eventually be little alternative sadly. After deep betrayal some cannot ever trust their spouse again and without trust what is there?
 

Since I can't speak for the writer of the OP, and she is still married, then I cannot simply say that because her husband has viewed pornography (and whatever else), that she has a pass to divorce him. It isn't that simple.

I'm going to mix threads here......

This situation is different than the "at odds with my situation" thread, and may help illustrate my views a bit better. In this thread there is an existing marriage that both seem to continue to recognize as existing. Therefore, in this thread, that relationship needs to be acknowledged and nurtured (if possible) by both partners.

In the "at odds" thread, as I understand it, both partners acknowledge the end of the relationship. Because that is the case, I see no reason to pretend it still exists simply because a piece of man-expected paperwork hasn't been completed.

rppearso

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Re: is pornography grounds for divorce
« Reply #31 on: Tue May 05, 2009 - 02:15:35 »
Im sorry to hear that, the fact that he had a willing participant at home makes all the difference in whos fault it is.  Im not sure why men act like that if they are getting what they need at home.  I think the reason why people disagree to the point of insult is becuase someone starts into a rant about something and they decievingly leave out critical information, like my sinful husband cheated and im so hurt blah blah and oh btw 8 pages later in the thread I stopped giving him BJ's but that should not be a big deal because I dont have to do anything I dont want to do and now he cheated and im pissy ::frown::  (where is the rolls eyes emoticon when you need it lol).  I dont know how people manage to complicate these issues into 8 pages of discussion, its not rocket science.

i am a born again christian, my husband says he is born again talks the talk when needed but dosen't walk the walk. our marriage has failed and we are recently separated, he became very bitter to me and couldn't make eye contact with me, i found evedence of adultry he says he never has, i found he was on dating pages and seeking local women, i don't know if he acctually met any of them, the evedence says yes, but no actual proof, then later on i found he was on free porn sites and talking dirty with them, i couldn't believe what i learned, he dosn't know that i saw what he has been doing, he  says he dosn't look at porn or lust after young girls, is what he's doing grounds for divorce? if there is no actual physical contact? or is it just adultry in his heart, and also how he can lie to me and look me in the eyes and say honest before God i haven't cheated on you or lust after young girls, how do i stay in a marriage with someone i can't trust or believe, our marriage bed has always been a problem too, he was always trying to blame me, but i have learned how porn can desrtoy the christian marriage bed and i don't believe it to be my fault. it really makes me sick inside to know his secret lifestyle. is any of this grounds for divorce? nothing is in the works yet just separation.

Well, I very rarely post, mainly because no matter what one posts, someone will disagree with you to the point of insult, and I’m just too sensitive for that.  But here I go anyway.

My ex-husband was into porn and other “non-participatory

Offline chosenone

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Re: is pornography grounds for divorce
« Reply #32 on: Tue May 05, 2009 - 05:38:48 »
I still don't agree that we have no choice but to look at porn if our spouse wont do certain things that we 'have' to have. looking at porn is a choice,just as having an affair is a choice.We are all accountable for what WE do and not what others do.

if my spouse had an accident and was paralysed from the neck down, is it then OK for me to have an affair or look at porn? if my spouse had a long term illness and couldn't have sex do I then have the 'right' to look at porn or find someone else to have sex with? Of course not. 
He is still my husband and I have still made a promise to forsake all others in sickness and in health, for better or for worse.

'Rights' have nothing to do with it, it is what we do before God that matters. No one except ourselves can make us do anything sinful and we have to take responsibility for what we do and stop blaming others for our sins and justifying them. That doesn't wash with God.

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Re: is pornography grounds for divorce
« Reply #33 on: Tue May 05, 2009 - 08:49:54 »
i am a born again christian, my husband says he is born again talks the talk when needed but dosen't walk the walk. our marriage has failed and we are recently separated, he became very bitter to me and couldn't make eye contact with me, i found evedence of adultry he says he never has, i found he was on dating pages and seeking local women, i don't know if he acctually met any of them, the evedence says yes, but no actual proof, then later on i found he was on free porn sites and talking dirty with them, i couldn't believe what i learned, he dosn't know that i saw what he has been doing, he  says he dosn't look at porn or lust after young girls, is what he's doing grounds for divorce? if there is no actual physical contact? or is it just adultry in his heart, and also how he can lie to me and look me in the eyes and say honest before God i haven't cheated on you or lust after young girls, how do i stay in a marriage with someone i can't trust or believe, our marriage bed has always been a problem too, he was always trying to blame me, but i have learned how porn can desrtoy the christian marriage bed and i don't believe it to be my fault. it really makes me sick inside to know his secret lifestyle. is any of this grounds for divorce? nothing is in the works yet just separation.

Well, I very rarely post, mainly because no matter what one posts, someone will disagree with you to the point of insult, and I’m just too sensitive for that.  But here I go anyway.

My ex-husband was into porn and other “non-participatory

Offline sahg

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Re: is pornography grounds for divorce
« Reply #34 on: Tue May 05, 2009 - 10:37:49 »
hmm is there more to this story we dont know about.  Why are you separated?  Why is he looking for someone else?
[/
quote]

yes there is more to this story, alot to write about, but i will try to be more clear.it involves my husbands problem with girl watching and pornography and my emotional needs. our marriage of 14 yrs has revolved around my husbands need for constant sex and never being able to touch me without fondling me. i repeatedly told him how this made me feel, and if he could hug me or touch me lovingly and to not do certain things to me sexually and me to him every time we had sex, i always felt dirty and ashamed after sex and violated during the day every time he fondled me. he would say" you know you like it" and continue to do the same things. over time i began to tense up every time he woud touch me and eventually start pushing him off and sex became absent from our marriage. i told him i felt like his personal sex toy not loved or cherished not like a lady or felt beutiful before him, just ashamed and dirty he said i had a problem. he has always had a girl watching problem and always looked at pornography and he says he dosn't do either of those things any more, i've been watching what he has been doing on the computer and he's lying to me as he looks right into my eyes, i have seen him lie to others with ease, he's good at it. he is also very secretive about everything and has always put his family before me ,he moved out because he said he wants to start living, he said he is tired of being a slave to the marriage and our home. i have been through all the emotions of this failed marriage, we went to counciling( made things worse) he just wanted to get away from me.i'm ok now by the grace of God, i have grown closer to the Lord from all this and some of my personal issues have been dealt with and healed  by all the trauma of this lonely diffucult marriage and Gods grace. i praise him! i never thought i woud get divorced because we are christians but it does happen otherwise it would not be mentioned in the bible. i fear God and do not want to commit intentional sin, i am not looking for a free ticket to divorce, i see evidence of his unfaithfulness,  and how do i ever trust and believe him? and our sex life is ruined i believe because of him looking at porn and he won't admit it. we are getting along better as friends since we are apart, but i don't see the marriage to work. i will remain faithful to him though as lonely as i am.