Christian Forums and Message Board

Christian Interests => Christian Singles Forum => Singles Sexual Discussion => Topic started by: DaveW on Thu Jan 09, 2014 - 13:05:02

Title: Another question in the Big "M" debate
Post by: DaveW on Thu Jan 09, 2014 - 13:05:02
Looking at the bottom of the first page of this forum one comes across discussion threads that seemed to start off but fizzled.  Interestingly, someone starts it back up only to fizzle again.

Masturbation: Is it okay?
Masturbation and attraction as singles ???
What are your defenses for porn/masturbation?
Is masterbation a sin?

Apparently many have this question but actually discussing it is problematic.  The statistics say that about 95% of late teens and 20s guys masturbate at least occasionally; and between 50 and 80% of young ladies of the same age goup do as well. In other words, almost everybody does it and no one wants to talk about it.

That last statistic (young ladies) has grown steadily over the few decades I have been watching (in the 70s it was put at about 20%) but is not surprizing in that just over a century ago western society did not think women had sex drives at all. What they felt (and the problems associated from lack of satisfaction) was described by Hypocrates circa 400 bc as "hysteria" and the medical community came up with methods of relieving this malady by inducing what medical journals called "paroxysm." (orgasm actually)  No connection with sex was made until the early 1900s.  Hysteria was removed from being a medical diagnosis of this 'problem' only about 60 years ago.


But I digress.  Back to the topic.  In this blog I found, the blogger asked this question of 7 different people:  "Is masturbation an acceptable component to healthy sexuality for Christians? "

http://rachelheldevans.com/blog/christians-masturbation (http://rachelheldevans.com/blog/christians-masturbation)

I would request that you read at least one of the responses and tell us if you agree or disagree.

To that I would add "If so - HOW?" or "In what way?"

I know that there are those who honestly believe that M is always sinful. While I respect that viewpoint, that is not being discussed here. This is about the responses in the referenced blog post.
Title: Re: Another question in the Big "M" debate
Post by: DaveW on Wed May 14, 2014 - 12:18:41
And so - true to the opening post, this one fizzled too. 

I guess everyone is TOO EMBARRASSED to talk about it.

It may also mean that a lot of us are doing it .....

Title: Re: Another question in the Big "M" debate
Post by: Leanne on Sat May 17, 2014 - 01:37:13
No, I don't think it's a sin. To be honest, I don't know where this thought has come from and why people think that masturbation isn't biblical. Yes, lust can result in addiction but people taking built up physical urges of their own body into their own hands, if you will, is completely okay for a single Christian - in fact that relief should help prevent temptations of extramarital relations.

I personally haven't masturbated since before I was married; even after my husband died I just never had the urge to. Interestingly though when I did so, and a teenager and a young adult, I did so with a great deal of shame and self loathing due to my upbringing which I understand how was incredibly misguided.

I don't want to come across as one who will tolerate anything just because you're falling to your lusts - as a mother of a couple of teenagers if there is any fornication under my roof that 'guest' isn't allowed over for that time that they're inevitably grounded for. The same goes for pornography, simply put because kids, once they like something bad for them, today have the know how to get it. But also, as a mother of a couple of teenagers who cleans the bed sheets, young people have a developing sexuality and God made us sexual creatures. We're not 'desecrating the Holy Spirit's temple' by exploring the nature of that temple.

Right now I'm hosting another boy while his family's issues are being resolved and he very much so fancies my daughter, to which they've been childhood friends. I recognize that due to taking him out of harm's way when he had nowhere else to go had plopped them right into temptation and I do have one eye out on their bahavior, my daughter and this boy both have a very genuine and close relationship with God which I suspect is better then mine, unlike my son who has lost that trust of me.

So I understand that if I ever wanted to again I would masturbate without any hesitation. Likewise, I feel it is a very important part of somebody as they grow up.
Title: Re: Another question in the Big "M" debate
Post by: chosenone on Sat May 17, 2014 - 03:44:08
I cant see that its wrong biblically, and for singles, or those who are married and deprived of sex, or whose spouse is away for long periods of time surely its OK?
To me its the way people masturbate to porn that makes it wrong, lusting after other people, and also not to get addicted to it. A man I know, after his divorce, was told by God to use it sparingly, and he never used porn either. I believe that God understands our sexuality, but also knows full well that so many can get addicted to it, especially when porn is involved.
Title: Re: Another question in the Big "M" debate
Post by: geneh_33 on Sat May 17, 2014 - 10:11:32
Masturbation is adultery according to Jesus' definition.

Matthew 5:28
New International Version (NIV)
28 But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

Matthew 15:19
New International Version (NIV)
19 For out of the heart come evil thoughts—murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, slander.

It is a grave sexual sin that requires repentance and forgiveness. Masturbation is when one commits sexual sin due to evil thoughts from and in the heart. It is really just that simple.
Title: Re: Another question in the Big "M" debate
Post by: OldDad on Sat May 17, 2014 - 10:32:14

"Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with all your might." Ecclesiastes 9:10
Title: Re: Another question in the Big "M" debate
Post by: Leanne on Sat May 17, 2014 - 10:46:02
Masturbation is adultery according to Jesus' definition.

Matthew 5:28
New International Version (NIV)
28 But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

Matthew 15:19
New International Version (NIV)
19 For out of the heart come evil thoughts—murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, slander.

It is a grave sexual sin that requires repentance and forgiveness. Masturbation is when one commits sexual sin due to evil thoughts from and in the heart. It is really just that simple.
Um, where did you get this idea that masturbation necessitates lusting after another? What about 'one has this natural tension that may need relief every once in a while and it feels good to do so' means that you HAVE to look upon another with lust? I mean if you said this about porn I would completely agree but somebody tending to their own bodily phenomena? Find me the verse that speaks up against that. When masturbation becomes an addiction, is done in response to porn or is done with somebody you're attracted to in mind then you can say it is sin - but because of addiction or adultary; not the masturbation.

Try speaking to God about the actual act, I found he was quite pragmatic on the issue.
Title: Re: Another question in the Big "M" debate
Post by: geneh_33 on Sat May 17, 2014 - 11:10:30
Masturbation is adultery according to Jesus' definition.

Matthew 5:28
New International Version (NIV)
28 But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

Matthew 15:19
New International Version (NIV)
19 For out of the heart come evil thoughts—murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, slander.

It is a grave sexual sin that requires repentance and forgiveness. Masturbation is when one commits sexual sin due to evil thoughts from and in the heart. It is really just that simple.
Um, where did you get this idea that masturbation necessitates lusting after another? What about 'one has this natural tension that may need relief every once in a while and it feels good to do so' means that you HAVE to look upon another with lust? I mean if you said this about porn I would completely agree but somebody tending to their own bodily phenomena? Find me the verse that speaks up against that. When masturbation becomes an addiction, is done in response to porn or is done with somebody you're attracted to in mind then you can say it is sin - but because of addiction or adultary; not the masturbation.

Try speaking to God about the actual act, I found he was quite pragmatic on the issue.

Masturbation cannot be done by a male individual without sexual gratification and that requires impure sexual thought. I cannot speak for female masturbation, obviously.
Title: Re: Another question in the Big "M" debate
Post by: chosenone on Sat May 17, 2014 - 12:46:10
Masturbation is adultery according to Jesus' definition.

Matthew 5:28
New International Version (NIV)
28 But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

Matthew 15:19
New International Version (NIV)
19 For out of the heart come evil thoughts—murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, slander.

It is a grave sexual sin that requires repentance and forgiveness. Masturbation is when one commits sexual sin due to evil thoughts from and in the heart. It is really just that simple.
Um, where did you get this idea that masturbation necessitates lusting after another? What about 'one has this natural tension that may need relief every once in a while and it feels good to do so' means that you HAVE to look upon another with lust? I mean if you said this about porn I would completely agree but somebody tending to their own bodily phenomena? Find me the verse that speaks up against that. When masturbation becomes an addiction, is done in response to porn or is done with somebody you're attracted to in mind then you can say it is sin - but because of addiction or adultary; not the masturbation.

Try speaking to God about the actual act, I found he was quite pragmatic on the issue.

Masturbation cannot be done by a male individual without sexual gratification and that requires impure sexual thought. I cannot speak for female masturbation, obviously.
 

men can and do masturbate without looking at or thinking about porn or other women. If the man is married then he can think about his own wife.
Title: Re: Another question in the Big "M" debate
Post by: Leanne on Sun May 18, 2014 - 02:33:57
Masturbation is adultery according to Jesus' definition.

Matthew 5:28
New International Version (NIV)
28 But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

Matthew 15:19
New International Version (NIV)
19 For out of the heart come evil thoughts—murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, slander.

It is a grave sexual sin that requires repentance and forgiveness. Masturbation is when one commits sexual sin due to evil thoughts from and in the heart. It is really just that simple.
Um, where did you get this idea that masturbation necessitates lusting after another? What about 'one has this natural tension that may need relief every once in a while and it feels good to do so' means that you HAVE to look upon another with lust? I mean if you said this about porn I would completely agree but somebody tending to their own bodily phenomena? Find me the verse that speaks up against that. When masturbation becomes an addiction, is done in response to porn or is done with somebody you're attracted to in mind then you can say it is sin - but because of addiction or adultary; not the masturbation.

Try speaking to God about the actual act, I found he was quite pragmatic on the issue.

Masturbation cannot be done by a male individual without sexual gratification and that requires impure sexual thought. I cannot speak for female masturbation, obviously.
A young man I've spoken to on this very subject would disagree with you,

"...I don't have to think about her or any other girl while I'm doing it. I wouldn't reduce her to an object like that, she means too much to me. Usually just 2-3 times a week my body gets the urge to the point where it's just plain uncomfortable and really hard to sleep if I don't deal with it. It also helps with stressful times. What do I think about while I'm doing it? Well you just enjoy how good it feels at the time. It's sorta just your moment to enjoy and afterwards you thank God that that was apart of my design...."

So either he's really good at lying to God, me and himself or what you talk about does not apply to all makes at all.
Title: Re: Another question in the Big "M" debate
Post by: geneh_33 on Sun May 18, 2014 - 11:24:07
Masturbation is adultery according to Jesus' definition.

Matthew 5:28
New International Version (NIV)
28 But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

Matthew 15:19
New International Version (NIV)
19 For out of the heart come evil thoughts—murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, slander.

It is a grave sexual sin that requires repentance and forgiveness. Masturbation is when one commits sexual sin due to evil thoughts from and in the heart. It is really just that simple.
Um, where did you get this idea that masturbation necessitates lusting after another? What about 'one has this natural tension that may need relief every once in a while and it feels good to do so' means that you HAVE to look upon another with lust? I mean if you said this about porn I would completely agree but somebody tending to their own bodily phenomena? Find me the verse that speaks up against that. When masturbation becomes an addiction, is done in response to porn or is done with somebody you're attracted to in mind then you can say it is sin - but because of addiction or adultary; not the masturbation.

Try speaking to God about the actual act, I found he was quite pragmatic on the issue.

Masturbation cannot be done by a male individual without sexual gratification and that requires impure sexual thought. I cannot speak for female masturbation, obviously.
 

men can and do masturbate without looking at or thinking about porn or other women. If the man is married then he can think about his own wife.

In the case of the wife, I'll agree with you. Otherwise I don't.
Title: Re: Another question in the Big "M" debate
Post by: geneh_33 on Sun May 18, 2014 - 11:25:06
Masturbation is adultery according to Jesus' definition.

Matthew 5:28
New International Version (NIV)
28 But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

Matthew 15:19
New International Version (NIV)
19 For out of the heart come evil thoughts—murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, slander.

It is a grave sexual sin that requires repentance and forgiveness. Masturbation is when one commits sexual sin due to evil thoughts from and in the heart. It is really just that simple.
Um, where did you get this idea that masturbation necessitates lusting after another? What about 'one has this natural tension that may need relief every once in a while and it feels good to do so' means that you HAVE to look upon another with lust? I mean if you said this about porn I would completely agree but somebody tending to their own bodily phenomena? Find me the verse that speaks up against that. When masturbation becomes an addiction, is done in response to porn or is done with somebody you're attracted to in mind then you can say it is sin - but because of addiction or adultary; not the masturbation.

Try speaking to God about the actual act, I found he was quite pragmatic on the issue.

Masturbation cannot be done by a male individual without sexual gratification and that requires impure sexual thought. I cannot speak for female masturbation, obviously.
A young man I've spoken to on this very subject would disagree with you,

"...I don't have to think about her or any other girl while I'm doing it. I wouldn't reduce her to an object like that, she means too much to me. Usually just 2-3 times a week my body gets the urge to the point where it's just plain uncomfortable and really hard to sleep if I don't deal with it. It also helps with stressful times. What do I think about while I'm doing it? Well you just enjoy how good it feels at the time. It's sorta just your moment to enjoy and afterwards you thank God that that was apart of my design...."

So either he's really good at lying to God, me and himself or what you talk about does not apply to all makes at all.

I would say he is lying to himself.
Title: Re: Another question in the Big "M" debate
Post by: chosenone on Sun May 18, 2014 - 13:35:15
geneh, you need to realise that not all men are the same just as not all women are the same . leanne and I both know men who can masturbate without porn or lusting after other women, so you need to accept that.
Title: Re: Another question in the Big "M" debate
Post by: Rella on Sun May 18, 2014 - 14:27:40
Masturbation is adultery according to Jesus' definition.

Matthew 5:28
New International Version (NIV)
28 But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.


It has been suggested The Gospel of Mathew was written by an anonymous person upwards to 100 years give or take after Jesus' death and not by Mathew himself.

If this is true, I cannot help but wonder how this statement may have been totally mis-stated.

Even if not true, it may be a statement of truth but it cannot be truly stated.

If you have a young man who has not known a woman, engaged to a young virgin with love in his heart it would be totally normal for him to lust after his intended as he would look upon her....  there cannot be adultery named in this. Perhaps immoral thoughts, but adultery ... no.

Yet the statement of Jesus would indicate he had committed adultery with her in his heart.

And it also would indicate that all you married men commit adultery in your hearts when you lust after your wives....

There is no distinction here and seems to be an incomplete idea.

As to masturbation being a sin?

I say ... no way.

1Cor 10:13 is why.

There has no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that you are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that you may be able to bear it.

So when the urge, or necessity comes around and to avoid a sexual sin of fornication with other then your wife, this is the escape.

Is it wrong to use porn. Yes it is.... but with it being all around either on the web or the way women dress
it is almost unavoidable.




Title: Re: Another question in the Big "M" debate
Post by: chosenone on Sun May 18, 2014 - 16:04:49
Masturbation is adultery according to Jesus' definition.

Matthew 5:28
New International Version (NIV)
28 But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.


It has been suggested The Gospel of Mathew was written by an anonymous person upwards to 100 years give or take after Jesus' death and not by Mathew himself.

If this is true, I cannot help but wonder how this statement may have been totally mis-stated.

Even if not true, it may be a statement of truth but it cannot be truly stated.

If you have a young man who has not known a woman, engaged to a young virgin with love in his heart it would be totally normal for him to lust after his intended as he would look upon her....  there cannot be adultery named in this. Perhaps immoral thoughts, but adultery ... no.

Yet the statement of Jesus would indicate he had committed adultery with her in his heart.

And it also would indicate that all you married men commit adultery in your hearts when you lust after your wives....

There is no distinction here and seems to be an incomplete idea.

As to masturbation being a sin?

I say ... no way.

1Cor 10:13 is why.

There has no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that you are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that you may be able to bear it.

So when the urge, or necessity comes around and to avoid a sexual sin of fornication with other then your wife, this is the escape.

Is it wrong to use porn. Yes it is.... but with it being all around either on the web or the way women dress
it is almost unavoidable.





 

So are you saying that men cant avoid looking at porn on line?

We need to take what it says in Matthew as fact no matter when it was written.  A man desiring his wife is completely allowed , read song of songs, she is his wife. If he does the same to other women its wrong.
Title: Re: Another question in the Big "M" debate
Post by: Leanne on Sun May 18, 2014 - 18:15:55
Masturbation is adultery according to Jesus' definition.

Matthew 5:28
New International Version (NIV)
28 But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

Matthew 15:19
New International Version (NIV)
19 For out of the heart come evil thoughts—murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, slander.

It is a grave sexual sin that requires repentance and forgiveness. Masturbation is when one commits sexual sin due to evil thoughts from and in the heart. It is really just that simple.
Um, where did you get this idea that masturbation necessitates lusting after another? What about 'one has this natural tension that may need relief every once in a while and it feels good to do so' means that you HAVE to look upon another with lust? I mean if you said this about porn I would completely agree but somebody tending to their own bodily phenomena? Find me the verse that speaks up against that. When masturbation becomes an addiction, is done in response to porn or is done with somebody you're attracted to in mind then you can say it is sin - but because of addiction or adultary; not the masturbation.

Try speaking to God about the actual act, I found he was quite pragmatic on the issue.

Masturbation cannot be done by a male individual without sexual gratification and that requires impure sexual thought. I cannot speak for female masturbation, obviously.
A young man I've spoken to on this very subject would disagree with you,

"...I don't have to think about her or any other girl while I'm doing it. I wouldn't reduce her to an object like that, she means too much to me. Usually just 2-3 times a week my body gets the urge to the point where it's just plain uncomfortable and really hard to sleep if I don't deal with it. It also helps with stressful times. What do I think about while I'm doing it? Well you just enjoy how good it feels at the time. It's sorta just your moment to enjoy and afterwards you thank God that that was apart of my design...."

So either he's really good at lying to God, me and himself or what you talk about does not apply to all makes at all.

I would say he is lying to himself.
Well, I've actually shown him what you have to say and this young man really wants to ask you if you've spoken to God about this matter. He's agreed that if you want to talk to him, he'll be happy. If so, I'll message you his e-mail address.
Title: Re: Another question in the Big "M" debate
Post by: Rella on Sun May 18, 2014 - 19:00:41
Masturbation is adultery according to Jesus' definition.

Matthew 5:28
New International Version (NIV)
28 But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.


It has been suggested The Gospel of Mathew was written by an anonymous person upwards to 100 years give or take after Jesus' death and not by Mathew himself.

If this is true, I cannot help but wonder how this statement may have been totally mis-stated.

Even if not true, it may be a statement of truth but it cannot be truly stated.

If you have a young man who has not known a woman, engaged to a young virgin with love in his heart it would be totally normal for him to lust after his intended as he would look upon her....  there cannot be adultery named in this. Perhaps immoral thoughts, but adultery ... no.

Yet the statement of Jesus would indicate he had committed adultery with her in his heart.

And it also would indicate that all you married men commit adultery in your hearts when you lust after your wives....

There is no distinction here and seems to be an incomplete idea.

As to masturbation being a sin?

I say ... no way.

1Cor 10:13 is why.

There has no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that you are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that you may be able to bear it.

So when the urge, or necessity comes around and to avoid a sexual sin of fornication with other then your wife, this is the escape.

Is it wrong to use porn. Yes it is.... but with it being all around either on the web or the way women dress
it is almost unavoidable.





 

So are you saying that men cant avoid looking at porn on line?

We need to take what it says in Matthew as fact no matter when it was written.  A man desiring his wife is completely allowed , read song of songs, she is his wife. If he does the same to other women its wrong.

No.. I am not saying that men cannot avoid looking, what I am saying is that
everything today, including the new headlines on the home page on the computers manage to get some form of something showing all to often.

And by their Divine creation it is stimulus that makes things work as it should.

It is not that they cannot look but it is always being thrust in their faces both online and off.

Men were not built with a switch that can turn on and off at will.

Therefore, with enough even unwanted stimulation their minds start to work.

There have been more then on lady in other threads that tells of her dear hubby closing their eyes when something objectionable is on TV or even inappropriate clothing in church.

The reason for that is because there is no off switch built into them.

That is what I am saying.

Not everyone can control things.

 
Title: Re: Another question in the Big "M" debate
Post by: geneh_33 on Mon May 19, 2014 - 12:21:37
geneh, you need to realise that not all men are the same just as not all women are the same . leanne and I both know men who can masturbate without porn or lusting after other women, so you need to accept that.

I do not. You do not know what is going on in the mind.
Title: Re: Another question in the Big "M" debate
Post by: geneh_33 on Mon May 19, 2014 - 12:25:33
Masturbation is adultery according to Jesus' definition.

Matthew 5:28
New International Version (NIV)
28 But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

Matthew 15:19
New International Version (NIV)
19 For out of the heart come evil thoughts—murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, slander.

It is a grave sexual sin that requires repentance and forgiveness. Masturbation is when one commits sexual sin due to evil thoughts from and in the heart. It is really just that simple.
Um, where did you get this idea that masturbation necessitates lusting after another? What about 'one has this natural tension that may need relief every once in a while and it feels good to do so' means that you HAVE to look upon another with lust? I mean if you said this about porn I would completely agree but somebody tending to their own bodily phenomena? Find me the verse that speaks up against that. When masturbation becomes an addiction, is done in response to porn or is done with somebody you're attracted to in mind then you can say it is sin - but because of addiction or adultary; not the masturbation.

Try speaking to God about the actual act, I found he was quite pragmatic on the issue.

Masturbation cannot be done by a male individual without sexual gratification and that requires impure sexual thought. I cannot speak for female masturbation, obviously.
A young man I've spoken to on this very subject would disagree with you,

"...I don't have to think about her or any other girl while I'm doing it. I wouldn't reduce her to an object like that, she means too much to me. Usually just 2-3 times a week my body gets the urge to the point where it's just plain uncomfortable and really hard to sleep if I don't deal with it. It also helps with stressful times. What do I think about while I'm doing it? Well you just enjoy how good it feels at the time. It's sorta just your moment to enjoy and afterwards you thank God that that was apart of my design...."

So either he's really good at lying to God, me and himself or what you talk about does not apply to all makes at all.

I would say he is lying to himself.
Well, I've actually shown him what you have to say and this young man really wants to ask you if you've spoken to God about this matter. He's agreed that if you want to talk to him, he'll be happy. If so, I'll message you his e-mail address.

Not interested. I'm confident you can guide him through it . I will pray for him but I do have some real trust issues due to prior problems with trusting people on the internet with my personal info.

My email address is hidden on here for a reason.
Title: Re: Another question in the Big "M" debate
Post by: chosenone on Mon May 19, 2014 - 14:12:08
Masturbation is adultery according to Jesus' definition.

Matthew 5:28
New International Version (NIV)
28 But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.


It has been suggested The Gospel of Mathew was written by an anonymous person upwards to 100 years give or take after Jesus' death and not by Mathew himself.

If this is true, I cannot help but wonder how this statement may have been totally mis-stated.

Even if not true, it may be a statement of truth but it cannot be truly stated.

If you have a young man who has not known a woman, engaged to a young virgin with love in his heart it would be totally normal for him to lust after his intended as he would look upon her....  there cannot be adultery named in this. Perhaps immoral thoughts, but adultery ... no.

Yet the statement of Jesus would indicate he had committed adultery with her in his heart.

And it also would indicate that all you married men commit adultery in your hearts when you lust after your wives....

There is no distinction here and seems to be an incomplete idea.

As to masturbation being a sin?

I say ... no way.

1Cor 10:13 is why.

There has no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that you are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that you may be able to bear it.

So when the urge, or necessity comes around and to avoid a sexual sin of fornication with other then your wife, this is the escape.

Is it wrong to use porn. Yes it is.... but with it being all around either on the web or the way women dress
it is almost unavoidable.





 

So are you saying that men cant avoid looking at porn on line?

We need to take what it says in Matthew as fact no matter when it was written.  A man desiring his wife is completely allowed , read song of songs, she is his wife. If he does the same to other women its wrong.

No.. I am not saying that men cannot avoid looking, what I am saying is that
everything today, including the new headlines on the home page on the computers manage to get some form of something showing all to often.

And by their Divine creation it is stimulus that makes things work as it should.

It is not that they cannot look but it is always being thrust in their faces both online and off.

Men were not built with a switch that can turn on and off at will.

Therefore, with enough even unwanted stimulation their minds start to work.

There have been more then on lady in other threads that tells of her dear hubby closing their eyes when something objectionable is on TV or even inappropriate clothing in church.

The reason for that is because there is no off switch built into them.

That is what I am saying.

Not everyone can control things.

 
 

yes thats my husband.
I guess their switch is in what they do when confronted with it, stare or look away.  The same if women see a good looking man with his top off, they can look at him or or look away. Its our choice.
Title: Re: Another question in the Big "M" debate
Post by: chosenone on Mon May 19, 2014 - 14:18:25
geneh, you need to realise that not all men are the same just as not all women are the same . leanne and I both know men who can masturbate without porn or lusting after other women, so you need to accept that.

I do not. You do not know what is going on in the mind.
 

Of course I do if its my husband or someone who is close to me and completely honest and open with me. Some women have trouble with porn, others dont, so that's a big difference to start with. I have heard women say they are tempted by a good looking guy with his shirt off, I am not the least bit interested in other men with their shirts off, only my husband, so you see we are all different.   
Title: Re: Another question in the Big "M" debate
Post by: Leanne on Mon May 19, 2014 - 17:06:47
Masturbation is adultery according to Jesus' definition.

Matthew 5:28
New International Version (NIV)
28 But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

Matthew 15:19
New International Version (NIV)
19 For out of the heart come evil thoughts—murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, slander.

It is a grave sexual sin that requires repentance and forgiveness. Masturbation is when one commits sexual sin due to evil thoughts from and in the heart. It is really just that simple.
Um, where did you get this idea that masturbation necessitates lusting after another? What about 'one has this natural tension that may need relief every once in a while and it feels good to do so' means that you HAVE to look upon another with lust? I mean if you said this about porn I would completely agree but somebody tending to their own bodily phenomena? Find me the verse that speaks up against that. When masturbation becomes an addiction, is done in response to porn or is done with somebody you're attracted to in mind then you can say it is sin - but because of addiction or adultary; not the masturbation.

Try speaking to God about the actual act, I found he was quite pragmatic on the issue.

Masturbation cannot be done by a male individual without sexual gratification and that requires impure sexual thought. I cannot speak for female masturbation, obviously.
A young man I've spoken to on this very subject would disagree with you,

"...I don't have to think about her or any other girl while I'm doing it. I wouldn't reduce her to an object like that, she means too much to me. Usually just 2-3 times a week my body gets the urge to the point where it's just plain uncomfortable and really hard to sleep if I don't deal with it. It also helps with stressful times. What do I think about while I'm doing it? Well you just enjoy how good it feels at the time. It's sorta just your moment to enjoy and afterwards you thank God that that was apart of my design...."

So either he's really good at lying to God, me and himself or what you talk about does not apply to all makes at all.

I would say he is lying to himself.
Well, I've actually shown him what you have to say and this young man really wants to ask you if you've spoken to God about this matter. He's agreed that if you want to talk to him, he'll be happy. If so, I'll message you his e-mail address.

Not interested. I'm confident you can guide him through it . I will pray for him but I do have some real trust issues due to prior problems with trusting people on the internet with my personal info.

My email address is hidden on here for a reason.
No problem, he's praying for you I hope you know ;)
Title: Re: Another question in the Big "M" debate
Post by: Leanne on Mon May 19, 2014 - 18:16:02
geneh, you need to realise that not all men are the same just as not all women are the same . leanne and I both know men who can masturbate without porn or lusting after other women, so you need to accept that.

I do not. You do not know what is going on in the mind.
Many people do not know God, he certainly exists.
You too don't know what is going on in the minds of men and boys who claim to masturbate without lusting after others.
Title: Re: Another question in the Big "M" debate
Post by: Adeptus Astartes on Mon May 19, 2014 - 19:38:42
Masturbation cannot be done by a male individual without sexual gratification and that requires impure sexual thought. I cannot speak for female masturbation, obviously.
Now, coming from a 'male individual' who has no motivation to not lust after others (besides, I'm well and truely damned for adultery*, yet alone in the mind) I can attest thaat this is no where near the case. I mean sure, porn, erotica and a colorful imagination helps but sometimes your body is up for it even though your head isn't. I mean really by that point is'd just nice feeling procrastination. Apologize for the detail but the last time I have, well y'know, I was in a debate on another forum about the applications of sociology (instigated between a Marxist and a Randian no less). Now, I don't find sociology particularly arousing but at the time I hadn't seen my girlfriend in a week and my body has obviously gotten used to the attention. There isn't any self deception involved, mostly it's just a really nice feeling way to waste time and occupy your hands.



*noting that the term used in its context didn't only refer to sleeping on your spouse as it does today
Title: Re: Another question in the Big "M" debate
Post by: DaveW on Tue May 20, 2014 - 05:32:27
Masturbation cannot be done by a male individual without sexual gratification and that requires impure sexual thought.

Really?  When I was a teen I was a once-a-day (on average) kinda guy and was doing so for a couple of years before I found out that it had anything to do with sex.  I thought it was tied to urinating. As a result, sexual thoughts and images (after I found out) actually hindered the process for me.

So don't tell me something I know is not right.

ETA:

Can you give me chapter and verse to prove that one cannot masturbate without inappropriate thoughts?

The book of Leviticus lists in detail all kinds of sexual behaviors that are sinful and prohibited.  Masturbation is not included even obliquely.  That is surprising as many of the prohibitions in the Law have to do with the pagan worship practices of Egypt and Canaan. Male masturbation was a widely used religious practice in Egypt and is depicted prominently in many of the hieroglyphs that date from the Israelite captivity there.

The only passage in the bible I have found that speaks to masturbation is Song of Solomon chapter 5.  Shulamite masturbates and is called "undefiled."

2 “I was asleep but my heart was awake.
A voice! My beloved was knocking:
‘Open to me, my sister, my darling,
My dove, my perfect one!
For my head is drenched with dew,
My locks with the damp of the night.’
3 “I have taken off my dress,
How can I put it on again?
I have washed my feet,
How can I dirty them again?
4 “My beloved extended his hand by the hole,
And my feelings were aroused for him.
5 “I arose to open to my beloved;
And my hands dripped with myrrh,
And my fingers with liquid myrrh,
On the handles of the bolt.

If you read in the preceding chapters, myrrh describes the female wetness from sexual arousal.
Title: Re: Another question in the Big "M" debate
Post by: DaveW on Tue May 20, 2014 - 05:37:09
geneh, you need to realise that not all men are the same just as not all women are the same . leanne and I both know men who can masturbate without porn or lusting after other women, so you need to accept that.
I do not. You do not know what is going on in the mind.

I know what is going on in your mind.  Psychologists call it "projecting." You are taking your own experience and assuming it is universal so you project that onto what others think feel and do.
Title: Re: Another question in the Big "M" debate
Post by: DaveW on Tue May 20, 2014 - 05:41:14
So as the OP, I am asking again:

"Is masturbation an acceptable component to healthy sexuality for Christians? "

Why or why not?
Title: Re: Another question in the Big "M" debate
Post by: geneh_33 on Thu Jun 05, 2014 - 17:25:57
geneh, you need to realise that not all men are the same just as not all women are the same . leanne and I both know men who can masturbate without porn or lusting after other women, so you need to accept that.
I do not. You do not know what is going on in the mind.

I know what is going on in your mind.  Psychologists call it "projecting." You are taking your own experience and assuming it is universal so you project that onto what others think feel and do.

Don't kid yourself. I know what goes through the minds of young men when they masturbate. Don't you? Do you think they are thinking about flowers or maybe doing the laundry later on? Please.
Title: Re: Another question in the Big "M" debate
Post by: geneh_33 on Thu Jun 05, 2014 - 17:27:15
So as the OP, I am asking again:

"Is masturbation an acceptable component to healthy sexuality for Christians? "

Why or why not?

No, it is not for a male individual. I do not believe a male can masturbate without thinking sinful thoughts. If you do not agree, that's okay, I'm not going to argue about it.
Title: Re: Another question in the Big "M" debate
Post by: Leanne on Sat Jun 07, 2014 - 07:50:53
geneh, you need to realise that not all men are the same just as not all women are the same . leanne and I both know men who can masturbate without porn or lusting after other women, so you need to accept that.
I do not. You do not know what is going on in the mind.

I know what is going on in your mind.  Psychologists call it "projecting." You are taking your own experience and assuming it is universal so you project that onto what others think feel and do.

Don't kid yourself. I know what goes through the minds of young men when they masturbate. Don't you? Do you think they are thinking about flowers or maybe doing the laundry later on? Please.
Several men have told you, they think about how good it feels. Believe it or not, not all men and boys are you and some can keep their lust under control when their body physiologically needs release. Do you want proof that men can do so without consciously lusting? Wet dreams for one. You're asleep, I'm pretty sure teenagers don't gain the ability to latently dream all of a sudden. Or how about prepubescent boys playing with themselves? They can't even comprehend such feelings but when the pants come off, the hands go down.

Your insistence that men can't masturbate without lust is is bordering on laughable.
Title: Re: Another question in the Big "M" debate
Post by: chosenone on Sat Jun 07, 2014 - 09:12:21
So as the OP, I am asking again:

"Is masturbation an acceptable component to healthy sexuality for Christians? "

Why or why not?

Well, for singles possibly if its kept under control, and there is no porn or similar involved. For those who are married, if they are both obeying God there should be no need unless they are separated for long periods, or one is very ill or something.
Title: Re: Another question in the Big "M" debate
Post by: DaveW on Mon Jun 09, 2014 - 08:38:36
Your insistence that men can't masturbate without lust is is bordering on laughable.

Actually, the way the mind works is that it re-wires itself on all strong stimuli; good or bad. (and orgasm is a very POWERFUL good stimulus) Every time a guy jacks off, what his mind is thinking about during those intense seconds gets wired into the neural pathways.  It is what leads to fetishes where something becomes a necessity for a full response.  And since there can be  no "joy" without that particular thought or image or item; we assume it is the same for everyone else.

But that is where it falls down - it is NOT the same for everyone.
Title: Re: Another question in the Big "M" debate
Post by: DaveW on Tue Jun 10, 2014 - 10:14:32
Well, for singles possibly if its kept under control, and there is no porn or similar involved.

I think it is easy for us marrieds to be condescending on the singles in this area; many of whom are experiencing the strongest urges they will ever have in their whole lives.  (for guys that is from about age 17 to 21 and for the gals it is mid-teens and early 30s)  We have our wives or husbands to take care of those urges; or at least that is how it is SUPPOSED to work but does not in many cases.

But I really want to hear from the singles here as to whether they think M can be useful for them, not only in relieving the "need," but also in embracing and developing a healthy sexuality.

If so - what would that look like to you?
Title: Re: Another question in the Big "M" debate
Post by: Rella on Thu Jun 19, 2014 - 18:16:23
Well, for singles possibly if its kept under control, and there is no porn or similar involved.

I think it is easy for us marrieds to be condescending on the singles in this area; many of whom are experiencing the strongest urges they will ever have in their whole lives.  (for guys that is from about age 17 to 21 and for the gals it is mid-teens and early 30s)  We have our wives or husbands to take care of those urges; or at least that is how it is SUPPOSED to work but does not in many cases.

But I really want to hear from the singles here as to whether they think M can be useful for them, not only in relieving the "need," but also in embracing and developing a healthy sexuality.

If so - what would that look like to you?

I feel somewhat awkward and embarrassed to be posting in this thread but here goes.

I am a single female in her 60s and as to M being useful beyond relieving the need and developing into
a healthy sexuality I will state the following.

When I was younger that (M) was part of my life. I did not view it as sin but of necessity that I will not expound on here. I also viewed it as training the body, but again will not go into that.

When I was in my late 30s I did a 180 on my own lifestyle and spent the next 24 years growing closer to God, or at least trying to.

Part of my pathway during that time was to totally abstain ... or more accurately try to abstain from any
thing that would have to do with M. 

However, the oddest thing would happen during that time.

The longer I went the more I would have actual explicit dreams regarding the true need relieving the need which was well beyond my control and involved thoughts and actions that would never have entered my conscious mind if I was not abstaining. Without expounding on these dreams, they were very real experiences of a bodily reaction as I would wake up right in the middle of ______. ( Well, you know)

And it was not from any self help.

It was during this period that I became truly aware that needs and cycles were created in the human
body and for a single person the subject of this thread was/is of necessity.

Title: Re: Another question in the Big "M" debate
Post by: raggthyme13 on Fri Jun 20, 2014 - 05:36:43
geneh, you need to realise that not all men are the same just as not all women are the same . leanne and I both know men who can masturbate without porn or lusting after other women, so you need to accept that.
I do not. You do not know what is going on in the mind.

I know what is going on in your mind.  Psychologists call it "projecting." You are taking your own experience and assuming it is universal so you project that onto what others think feel and do.

Don't kid yourself. I know what goes through the minds of young men when they masturbate. Don't you? Do you think they are thinking about flowers or maybe doing the laundry later on? Please.
Several men have told you, they think about how good it feels. Believe it or not, not all men and boys are you and some can keep their lust under control when their body physiologically needs release. Do you want proof that men can do so without consciously lusting? Wet dreams for one. You're asleep, I'm pretty sure teenagers don't gain the ability to latently dream all of a sudden. Or how about prepubescent boys playing with themselves? They can't even comprehend such feelings but when the pants come off, the hands go down.

Your insistence that men can't masturbate without lust is is bordering on laughable.

Do you believe Jesus did such things as a young man? Surely he had natural urges as well… isn't that why boys have wet dreams?? A natural release rather than a forced one?

Title: Re: Another question in the Big "M" debate
Post by: DaveW on Fri Jun 20, 2014 - 06:02:29
Do you believe Jesus did such things as a young man? Surely he had natural urges as well… isn't that why boys have wet dreams?? A natural release rather than a forced one?

We have no information on whether Our Lord did that or not.  So it really does not matter one way or the other. If it DID matter, mention would have been made in scripture.

As to "wet dreams," only about 40% of men/boys experience that. What about the other 60%? We have the dreams and wake up just before the "wet"part.  Forget about ever going back to sleep.
Title: Re: Another question in the Big "M" debate
Post by: Rella on Fri Jun 20, 2014 - 07:04:41


Do you believe Jesus did such things as a young man? Surely he had natural urges as well… isn't that why boys have wet dreams?? A natural release rather than a forced one?

It does not matter what I , or anyone believes on this but in answer to your question I say possibly and probably.

We are told...

Hebrews 4 vs 15
 15For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

And then we are also told...

1 Cor 10 vs 13
 13There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

In my opinion I believe M is the way to escape the sin of fornication.

 Onan...  is the most mentioned by the naysayers on this subject, trying to prove Biblically that M is a sin, because he spilled his seed, rather then impregnate his widowed sister-in-law.

God killed him. Not because of M but because he tried to not impregnate his widowed sister-in-law.

There is no where in the Bible specifically forbidding this M.

Therefore I believe this is the way God intended singles to avoid the sin of fornication.
Title: Re: Another question in the Big "M" debate
Post by: DaveW on Fri Jun 20, 2014 - 12:02:15
To my way of reading the text - there is only one place where M is talked about:

Song of Solomon 5.2 “I was asleep but my heart was awake.
A voice! My beloved was knocking:
‘Open to me, my sister, my darling,
My dove, my perfect one!
For my head is drenched with dew,
My locks with the damp of the night.’
3 “I have taken off my dress,
How can I put it on again?
I have washed my feet,
How can I dirty them again?
4 “My beloved extended his hand through the opening, [lit: hand by the hole]
And my feelings were aroused for him.
5 “I arose to open to my beloved;
And my hands dripped with myrrh,
And my fingers with liquid myrrh,
On the handles of the bolt.

Since we can gather from other SOS passages that "myrrh" was symbolic for female lubrication ... ::blushing::  I think you can get the idea of what she was doing in that half-awake state.
Title: Re: Another question in the Big "M" debate
Post by: Leanne on Fri Jun 27, 2014 - 11:56:14
geneh, you need to realise that not all men are the same just as not all women are the same . leanne and I both know men who can masturbate without porn or lusting after other women, so you need to accept that.
I do not. You do not know what is going on in the mind.

I know what is going on in your mind.  Psychologists call it "projecting." You are taking your own experience and assuming it is universal so you project that onto what others think feel and do.

Don't kid yourself. I know what goes through the minds of young men when they masturbate. Don't you? Do you think they are thinking about flowers or maybe doing the laundry later on? Please.
Several men have told you, they think about how good it feels. Believe it or not, not all men and boys are you and some can keep their lust under control when their body physiologically needs release. Do you want proof that men can do so without consciously lusting? Wet dreams for one. You're asleep, I'm pretty sure teenagers don't gain the ability to latently dream all of a sudden. Or how about prepubescent boys playing with themselves? They can't even comprehend such feelings but when the pants come off, the hands go down.

Your insistence that men can't masturbate without lust is is bordering on laughable.

Do you believe Jesus did such things as a young man? Surely he had natural urges as well… isn't that why boys have wet dreams?? A natural release rather than a forced one?
Natural urges? Because he was some other man, right? No, he was God on earth. I cannot say what God did as a teenager. however, humans who are sexual creatures? They're a different matter to God.
Title: Re: Another question in the Big "M" debate
Post by: DaveW on Mon Jun 30, 2014 - 05:37:01
Do you believe Jesus did such things as a young man? Surely he had natural urges as well… isn't that why boys have wet dreams?? A natural release rather than a forced one?
Natural urges? Because he was some other man, right? No, he was God on earth. I cannot say what God did as a teenager. however, humans who are sexual creatures? They're a different matter to God.

I am not sure what you are saying here Leanne.  Are you saying the teen aged Jesus did NOT have sexual desires? 
Title: Re: Another question in the Big "M" debate
Post by: Leanne on Fri Jul 04, 2014 - 08:24:56
Do you believe Jesus did such things as a young man? Surely he had natural urges as well… isn't that why boys have wet dreams?? A natural release rather than a forced one?
Natural urges? Because he was some other man, right? No, he was God on earth. I cannot say what God did as a teenager. however, humans who are sexual creatures? They're a different matter to God.

I am not sure what you are saying here Leanne.  Are you saying the teen aged Jesus did NOT have sexual desires?
I'm saying that Jesus was not any man but a God made flesh and I can't say what applies to man applies to Christ.
Title: Re: Another question in the Big "M" debate
Post by: DaveW on Fri Jul 04, 2014 - 08:39:24
I am not sure what you are saying here Leanne.  Are you saying the teen aged Jesus did NOT have sexual desires?
I'm saying that Jesus was not any man but a God made flesh and I can't say what applies to man applies to Christ.

Oooo.  You are treading on some dangerous ground there, theologically.  If Our Lord was not FULLY human, - meaning that EVERYTHING we experience He experienced, then you are drifting quite close to gnosticism. It is an ancient heresy that came from greek pagan "dualism" and said that everything spiritual was good and everything physical was bad.  The christian version of it sought to diminish or eliminate Jesus' humanity. 
Title: Re: Another question in the Big "M" debate
Post by: Leanne on Wed Jul 09, 2014 - 04:37:51
I think you're misunderstanding me. I do not think that all which is physical is evil, far from it - the material universe is made and blessed by God. But we are fallen creatures and have an inherently sinful nature. God, by contrast, is wholly good which is why Jesus was a very special individual. Also, not exactly what I said: " I cannot say what God did as a teenager".
Title: Re: Another question in the Big "M" debate
Post by: DaveW on Wed Jul 09, 2014 - 06:20:03
I did not say you had crossed over into gnosticism; rather, that your statement concerning the nature of Our Lord was straying too close to it.

It is very easy to just think of Our Lord as Divinity, but we get nervous when we start considering all that is involved in Him being "Fully man." Ephesians says He emptied Himself and took the form of man. Which means that although He was fully Divine, He did nothing from His divinity.  Not His avoidance of sin, not even his miracles. He relied on the power of the Holy Spirit in all that so he could be a legitimate EXAMPLE for us. 
Title: Re: Another question in the Big "M" debate
Post by: Rella on Sun Jul 13, 2014 - 14:27:49
People, people, people....

What is it about the written Word that is unclear to you?

We are specifically told in Hebrews 4:15 KJV

15For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

and Hebrews 4:15 NIV

15 For we do not have a high priest who is unable to empathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are—yet he did not sin.

This is Jesus that is being talked about here.

He was tempted, just like every other 100% red blooded male reading this
has been at some point in his lifetime..

Yet He was without sin not because of His divine nature or DNA
but because of 1 Cor 10:13

1 Cor 10:13 KJV

13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

 1 Cor10:13 NIV

13 No temptation[a] has overtaken you except what is common to mankind. And God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted,[c] he will also provide a way out so that you can endure it.

And a way out very well could be, and probably is M.

Did HE?  I don't care. It should not matter. There is nothing that lessens Him and what He did for us.

We are taught he came as 100% man.
Fact: He was born from a woman.
Fact: He was brought up as a little Jewish boy.
Fact: He was circumcised, as was the expected custom.



Title: Re: Another question in the Big "M" debate
Post by: Bluesman on Thu Aug 28, 2014 - 18:01:20

"Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with all your might." Ecclesiastes 9:10

 rofl ::giggle::
Title: Re: Another question in the Big "M" debate
Post by: DaveW on Tue Oct 27, 2020 - 08:57:43
It was during this period that I became truly aware that needs and cycles were created in the human body and for a single person the subject of this thread was/is of necessity.
I know this is a VERY OLD ZOMBIE THREAD, but an important one.

I never properly thanked you Rella for that statement.  ::thanks::

In his 1969 book "The Stork is Dead," Presby minister Rev Charles Shedd said that masturbation was "God's gift to singles."  In 1981, Dr Cliff Penner and his wife titled their first book "The Gift of Sex;" and followed it up 3 years later with "A Gift for All Ages."

Sexual enjoyment is a gift from God.  Those authors and many others agree with that.  It is given at puberty, when almost all of us are single, and will be for many years.  So how do you enjoy God's good gift as a single?  You masturbate. And thank Him for  every good feeling and sensation.
Title: Re: Another question in the Big "M" debate
Post by: Wycliffes_Shillelagh on Sun Nov 01, 2020 - 15:35:30
I don't guess many people will want to talk about it. 

It's embarrassing, because its considered stigmatic in our culture.  It shouldn't be stigmatic, but it is.  Secular culture tries to tell us that if we masturbate, we must be a loser with no girlfriend.  That isn't true of course, that's just bullies trying to lift themselves up by pushing everyone else down.

Jarrod
Title: Re: Another question in the Big "M" debate
Post by: Rella on Sun Nov 01, 2020 - 17:12:43
I know this is a VERY OLD ZOMBIE THREAD, but an important one.

I never properly thanked you Rella for that statement.  ::thanks::

In his 1969 book "The Stork is Dead," Presby minister Rev Charles Shedd said that masturbation was "God's gift to singles."  In 1981, Dr Cliff Penner and his wife titled their first book "The Gift of Sex;" and followed it up 3 years later with "A Gift for All Ages."

Sexual enjoyment is a gift from God.  Those authors and many others agree with that.  It is given at puberty, when almost all of us are single, and will be for many years.  So how do you enjoy God's good gift as a single?  You masturbate. And thank Him for  every good feeling and sensation.

It has been a problem for women as well as men, although most women shy away from ever admitting it is a problem for them.

Embarrassment, guilt and shame spring to mind as all the reasons why anyone would try to control things when certain cycles ... if I might call them that... cause a need for a lot of cold showers or endless rounds on the treadmill....that only ever seem to delay the inevitable, and are totally impractical at 2AM.

I have always heard discussions of how it is not forbidden in the bible but along the lines of sexual immorality, which coversanythingoutside ot themarriage bedor by agreement between husband and wife stillmake it a no no.

I never hear anyone bring up one verse that seems to support your views Dave...

1 Cor 13:10

No temptation has overtaken you except such as is common to man; but God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will also make the way of escape, that you may be able to bear it.

And I can promise,and I am sure most other singles will too, that the way of escape is not through prayer. ::blushing::

Jarrod,

I have no problem talking about it. 73 years of being single has evolved me into the willingness of talking about anything...and with anyone... but being that most of you on GC are married how singles need to compensate... if I can say it that way... is a bit awkward.



Title: Re: Another question in the Big "M" debate
Post by: DaveW on Mon Nov 02, 2020 - 07:15:03
It has been a problem for women as well as men, although most women shy away from ever admitting it is a problem for them.
IMO the only "problem" is the extreme anti-sex attitude of the early church fathers which has carried down thru the last 1800 years in a variety of forms and ideas.

But as to why women specifically?  The ancient Greek physician Hippocrates wrote circa 400 bc that women have no sexual feelings or drive.  The church believed him over the plain understanding of the OT scriptures, especially Proverbs and the Song of Solomon which talk a LOT about women's desires. (maybe with all those wives Solomon learned a thing or 2 about female sexuality??)
Quote
I never hear anyone bring up one verse that seems to support your views Dave...
1 Cor 13:10
Actually, in more sex-positive venues like TheMarriageBed and MarriageHeat, that verse is held out as supporting "M;"  especially for singles.
Quote
I have always heard discussions of how it is not forbidden in the bible but along the lines of sexual immorality, which covers anything outside of the marriage bed or by agreement between husband and wife still make it a no no.
And doing that is EXACTLY what our Lord frequently rebuked the Pharisees for: extending the biblical command using human wisdom.

Matthew 15:9
‘But in vain do they worship Me, Teaching as doctrines the precepts of men.’”

Indeed, the Law of Moses warned them against just such a thing:

Deuteronomy 4:2
You shall not add to the word which I am commanding you, nor take away from it, that you may keep the commandments of the Lord your God which I command you.

Extending the definition of "sexual immorality" to include masturbation, when no biblical example shows that, is adding to the command. 
Quote
And I can promise,and I am sure most other singles will too, that the way of escape is not through prayer.
Of course not.  It is asking God to change the way He designed you.  It is quarreling with Him who made you JUST the way he wanted you to be.

Isaiah 45:9
“Woe to the one who quarrels with his Maker— An earthenware vessel among the vessels of earth! Will the clay say to the potter, ‘What are you doing?’ Or the thing you are making say, ‘He has no hands’?

THAT is why God does not answer the prayer to take away someone's sex drive. He designed it to be enjoyed. He gave it specific and important functions in the working of our bodies. (even if you are not married)
Quote
I have no problem talking about it. 73 years of being single has evolved me into the willingness of talking about anything...and with anyone... but being that most of you on GC are married how singles need to compensate... if I can say it that way... is a bit awkward.
Yes, our culture makes talking about sex awkward in any situation by almost anyone.  I applaud your bravery.
Title: Re: Another question in the Big "M" debate
Post by: DaveW on Mon Nov 02, 2020 - 08:36:21
Quote
Quote
I have no problem talking about it. 73 years of being single has evolved me into the willingness of talking about anything...and with anyone... but being that most of you on GC are married how singles need to compensate... if I can say it that way... is a bit awkward.
Yes, our culture makes talking about sex awkward in any situation by almost anyone.  I applaud your bravery.
It is important for you and others to speak up.  Not just for yourselves but for those who are in their teens and 20s now. Many struggle in silence.
And like you said, little is posted or written for young ladies struggling with this issue.  My heart goes out to each and every one of them.
Title: Re: Another question in the Big "M" debate
Post by: DaveW on Mon Feb 15, 2021 - 09:59:39
It has been a problem for women as well as men, although most women shy away from ever admitting it is a problem for them.

Embarrassment, guilt and shame spring to mind as all the reasons why anyone would try to control things when certain cycles ... if I might call them that... cause a need for a lot of cold showers or endless rounds on the treadmill....that only ever seem to delay the inevitable, and are totally impractical at 2AM.

And I can promise,and I am sure most other singles will too, that the way of escape is not through prayer. ::blushing::

I have no problem talking about it. 73 years of being single has evolved me into the willingness of talking about anything...and with anyone... but being that most of you on GC are married how singles need to compensate... if I can say it that way... is a bit awkward.
Rella - I came across this meme and it broke my heart since it sums up so well the tragic results of the church teaching against masturbating and how it affects hormonal teens that have to wait a decade or 2 to "legitimately" get relief. 

the caption says:


When you're religious so you try to stop masturbating
but every day you get more sexually frustrated and lonely,
so eventually you skip church to masturbate.

(https://i.redd.it/s4kk9ln8lii01.jpg)

And yes I know you have been waiting for that for 6 decades .....
Title: Re: Another question in the Big "M" debate
Post by: DaveW on Mon Feb 15, 2021 - 10:14:14
Quote from: Rella
I have always heard discussions of how it is not forbidden in the bible but along the lines of sexual immorality, which covers anything outside of the marriage bed or by agreement between husband and wife still make it a no no.

I never hear anyone bring up one verse that seems to support your views Dave...  1 Cor 13:10

No temptation has overtaken you except such as is common to man; but God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will also make the way of escape, that you may be able to bear it.
That is pretty much "God made a mistake and left this out; so we have to find a way to bring it back in. "

That is one of the things our Lord blasted the Pharisees for doing - adding to the commands of God.

The problem with that verse (the reason so many do not take it that way) is it runs counter to their trying to add to the commands. 

I took a year's worth of classes on Judaism in a conservative synagogue back in the 1990s.  My wife and I both grew up in congregational settings related to the Wesleyan Holiness movement of the late 1800s, early 1900s.  Me Church of Nazarene, Pentecostal Holiness; and her Assembly of God. So we both had this background of what ever was personally pleasurable was at least questionable if not outright sinful.

But we heard a very different story of classic Judaism. (remember our Lord and all the apostles were Jews from the late 2nd temple period.   One of the things we heard (and I recently found the reference for) was the idea that God created pleasures for us to enjoy; and to deny ourselves those pleasures (assuming they are not forbidden) is considered sinful.  So imagine my surprise and delight when i found this in a commentary on Genesis a few months ago:


A man will have to give an account on the judgement day for every good and permissible thing which he might have enjoyed and did not.

Jerusalem Talmud Kiddushin 4:12


IF masturbating is NOT forbidden, then it is actually permissible.  And God expects us to enjoy it.

I am thinking of adding that to my siggy.
Title: Re: Another question in the Big "M" debate
Post by: Rella on Thu Feb 25, 2021 - 11:53:46
I don't guess many people will want to talk about it. 

It's embarrassing, because its considered stigmatic in our culture

Jarrod

Quote
Posted by: DaveW
« on: Mon Feb 15, 2021 - 10:14:14 »

IF masturbating is NOT forbidden, then it is actually permissible.  And God expects us to enjoy it.

Let me comment on this embarrassing enjoyable thing.

Yes, the desire and the urge is something that develops at puberty... and it generally will last well into old age. At least into mid 70s .

Is this embarrassing to say?  Not really, but few will admit it simply because they believe that to admit means you are not getting any and that, for most... even a lot of Christians is an embarrassing admission.

But guilt is always there.

Guilt simply because mostly things get stirred up by outside influences of a word heard, a picture seen, and even a provocative
advertisement.

We are not supposed to think about other things other then our legal spouse at such times.

When you do not have one of those then it is  troublesome, at minimum , to have often unexpected things happen.
Title: Re: Another question in the Big "M" debate
Post by: DaveW on Thu Feb 25, 2021 - 13:58:38
And I would say it is a false guilt.  God does not condemn, but the devil does. And he is nothing but a liar. 

In the Song of Solomon chapter 5 from verse 6 on onward, after Shulamite masturbates (verse 2-5)  she goes out to find her lover but instead is confronted with the city guards who beat her. 

IMO this is a poetic description of those "guilt" feelings that follow doing the deed.  It is based on being alone since sexual activity is designed to join 2 people together.  By one's self there is no one there which can leave a feeling of emptiness, so it gets incorrectly interpreted as guilt.
Title: Re: Another question in the Big "M" debate
Post by: Rella on Thu Feb 25, 2021 - 17:37:37
And I would say it is a false guilt.  God does not condemn, but the devil does. And he is nothing but a liar. 

In the Song of Solomon chapter 5 from verse 6 on onward, after Shulamite masturbates (verse 2-5)  she goes out to find her lover but instead is confronted with the city guards who beat her. 

IMO this is a poetic description of those "guilt" feelings that follow doing the deed.  It is based on being alone since sexual activity is designed to join 2 people together.  By one's self there is no one there which can leave a feeling of emptiness, so it gets incorrectly interpreted as guilt.

Yes it is designed for 2 people. And perfectly designed for a man and a woman.

Lacking that does not stop things from getting churned up from time to time, and when that happens more often or not leaves one to compensate.

You say   "can leave a feeling of emptiness"... can but not necessarily. And I might say that likely not if one has only ever had themselves for company.

There have been  discussions within these forums of how it is acceptable between married people IF the spouse is in agreement.  But that does not give permission for either spouse to venture into area alone simply because of...

And beyond that I simply do not know how to G rate a reply to the guilt end, because there are just things that will set things in motion and I best just shut up right now and close by saying there ARE things to feel guilty about because
certain things are unavoidable and often ,too much so, one might develop those passing thoughts of actually wanting to
have that exposure... even knowing that control of thoughts in scratching that itch will meet with every ones approval...kind of.
Title: Re: Another question in the Big "M" debate
Post by: RB on Fri Feb 26, 2021 - 03:33:47
My opinion of this is:
Quote
1st Corinthians 7:25-28~"Now concerning virgins I have no commandment of the Lord: yet I give my judgment, as one that hath obtained mercy of the Lord to be faithful. I suppose therefore that this is good for the present distress, I say, that it is good for a man so to be. Art thou bound unto a wife? seek not to be loosed. Art thou loosed from a wife? seek not a wife. But and if thou marry, thou hast not sinned; and if a virgin marry, she hath not sinned. Nevertheless such shall have trouble in the flesh: but I spare you.
There is not much spoken of virgins BEFORE they marry, and the trouble they may go through in the flesh~YET God spare such people of their problems in the flesh as long as they seek to be holy in their spirit while having trouble in the flesh.

God created us to be sexual creatures overall considered. Every man and woman are different~ no two are the same. My personal opinion is that the troubles that virgins go through should be between them and God and the way they manage their "troubles" should be BETWEEN THEM AND GOD and any close friend that they may want to confine in that may be going through the same trouble. Such troubles truly should be kept PRIVATE and not open forum discussion.

For myself and from a young age, I KNEW that marriage was the ONLY way for me and never considered any other way. I was thinking very strongly toward females at a young age around twelve or so~so it was clear to me and easy for me to figure this out. Women are a wonderful gift from God~especially so, a wise, good, and beautiful woman. 
Title: Re: Another question in the Big "M" debate
Post by: DaveW on Fri Feb 26, 2021 - 05:54:36
There have been  discussions within these forums of how it is acceptable between married people IF the spouse is in agreement.  But that does not give permission for either spouse to venture into area alone simply because of...
Because of a lack? Paul says this about that:

1 Corinthians 7
3 The husband must fulfill his duty to his wife, and likewise also the wife to her husband.

 Scripture never directly addresses whether a married person can or cannot masturbate without direction from the spouse.  But it DOES address the permission issue here:

4 The wife does not have authority over her own body, but the husband does; and likewise also the husband does not have authority over his own body, but the wife does.

So the spouse can tell you it is ok to do that, OR can say you absolutely CANNOT do that.  It is up to them.  But Paul says it is NOT ok to leave your spouse wanting:

5 Stop depriving one another, except by agreement for a time, so that you may devote yourselves to prayer, and come together again so that Satan will not tempt you because of your lack of self-control.

How long is that "time?"  In the Greek text it implies a short time.  In the rabbinic writings it was said that rabbis Shammai and Hillel disagreed on this very point.  (Hillel was the grandfather of Gamaliel, Paul's teacher) Hillel said 1 week and Shammai said 2 weeks, MAXIMUM.
Title: Re: Another question in the Big "M" debate
Post by: DaveW on Fri Feb 26, 2021 - 06:19:32
And beyond that I simply do not know how to G rate a reply to the guilt end, because there are just things that will set things in motion and I best just shut up right now and close by saying there ARE things to feel guilty about because  certain things are unavoidable and often ,too much so, one might develop those passing thoughts of actually wanting to have that exposure... even knowing that control of thoughts in scratching that itch will meet with every ones approval...kind of.
You are referring to the "lust" issue here:

Matthew 5:28
but I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

The word "lust" there is epithumeo, which is a very strong desire, either good or bad.  It is used here as well:

Luke 22:15
And He said to them, “I have earnestly desired to eat this Passover with you before I suffer;"

If we used the word Lust in this verse it would read:

... with lust i have lusted to eat this Passover ...

But more importantly, epithumeo is used in the Septuagint to translate "Covet."  It is translated "covet" in Paul's letters.  And given the context of this part of the Sermon on the mount, given to the 10 commandments and the rabbinic extensions, it is clear that Covet is what is meant here.

Let us look at the words of our Lord, and the words of the Father in the Big 10:

Matthew 5:28
but I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

Exodus 20:17
You shall not covet your neighbor’s house; you shall not covet your neighbor’s wife or his male servant or his female servant or his ox or his donkey or anything that belongs to your neighbor.

To covet is to want to take something away that belongs to someone else.  In the case of the house, the servants, or livestock, it is theft in the heart.  For the wife it is adultery in the heart.

IMO it is NOT just having some image or thought that gets you worked up.  That does NOT rise to the level of "lust." 

If you are hungry and see a person eating your favorite meal, it makes you hungrier.  Smelling some wonderful stew or fresh baked bread will set your mouth watering even if you are NOT hungry. 

IT is not coveting/lust until you are thinking of a way to take it away from them. 

Smelling that baking bread sets things in motion.  Go and eating what you DO have to satisfy that is NOT lust.  It is no different than what you said:
Quote
certain things are unavoidable and often ,too much so, one might develop those passing thoughts of actually wanting to have that exposure...
Of course you want that bread.  It is how God made you. 
It is NOT lust. 
Title: Re: Another question in the Big "M" debate
Post by: Rella on Fri Feb 26, 2021 - 16:28:43
Because of a lack? Paul says this about that:

1 Corinthians 7
3 The husband must fulfill his duty to his wife, and likewise also the wife to her husband.

 Scripture never directly addresses whether a married person can or cannot masturbate without direction from the spouse.  But it DOES address the permission issue here:

4 The wife does not have authority over her own body, but the husband does; and likewise also the husband does not have authority over his own body, but the wife does.

So the spouse can tell you it is ok to do that, OR can say you absolutely CANNOT do that.  It is up to them.  But Paul says it is NOT ok to leave your spouse wanting:

5 Stop depriving one another, except by agreement for a time, so that you may devote yourselves to prayer, and come together again so that Satan will not tempt you because of your lack of self-control.

How long is that "time?"  In the Greek text it implies a short time.  In the rabbinic writings it was said that rabbis Shammai and Hillel disagreed on this very point.  (Hillel was the grandfather of Gamaliel, Paul's teacher) Hillel said 1 week and Shammai said 2 weeks, MAXIMUM.

Not necessarily a lack but inability due to health issues.

Enough said on this.
Title: Re: Another question in the Big "M" debate
Post by: Rella on Fri Feb 26, 2021 - 16:32:01
You are referring to the "lust" issue here:

Matthew 5:28
but I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

The word "lust" there is epithumeo, which is a very strong desire, either good or bad.  It is used here as well:

Luke 22:15
And He said to them, “I have earnestly desired to eat this Passover with you before I suffer;"

If we used the word Lust in this verse it would read:

... with lust i have lusted to eat this Passover ...

But more importantly, epithumeo is used in the Septuagint to translate "Covet."  It is translated "covet" in Paul's letters.  And given the context of this part of the Sermon on the mount, given to the 10 commandments and the rabbinic extensions, it is clear that Covet is what is meant here.

Let us look at the words of our Lord, and the words of the Father in the Big 10:

Matthew 5:28
but I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

Exodus 20:17
You shall not covet your neighbor’s house; you shall not covet your neighbor’s wife or his male servant or his female servant or his ox or his donkey or anything that belongs to your neighbor.

To covet is to want to take something away that belongs to someone else.  In the case of the house, the servants, or livestock, it is theft in the heart.  For the wife it is adultery in the heart.

IMO it is NOT just having some image or thought that gets you worked up.  That does NOT rise to the level of "lust." 

If you are hungry and see a person eating your favorite meal, it makes you hungrier.  Smelling some wonderful stew or fresh baked bread will set your mouth watering even if you are NOT hungry. 

IT is not coveting/lust until you are thinking of a way to take it away from them. 

Smelling that baking bread sets things in motion.  Go and eating what you DO have to satisfy that is NOT lust.  It is no different than what you said:Of course you want that bread.  It is how God made you. 
It is NOT lust.

God created the human being to respond to certain things.

But there are things that should be off limits. I will mention pornography for one. But you surly know what that can and does do?

Whatever it is that causes the lust to light a fire.... most likely it is inappropriate.... ergo, guilt ensues not for the quenching of the fire but the thing that causes.

Now, this is enough on this ... in an open forum.

I agree with RB.

Title: Re: Another question in the Big "M" debate
Post by: DaveW on Tue May 24, 2022 - 14:06:48
Natural urges? Because he was some other man, right? No, he was God on earth. I cannot say what God did as a teenager. however, humans who are sexual creatures? They're a different matter to God.
Remember our Master was 100% human as well as 100% God.  He would have had the exact same urges in the same intensity. 
Title: Re: Another question in the Big "M" debate
Post by: DaveW on Tue May 24, 2022 - 14:34:55
I came across a couple of surveys (relatively recently) one in England and the other in India.  Both had female masturbation in the 18-30 year old range (both married and unmarried) at 92%.  That is very close the traditional 95% number for men over the last 60 years.

The India report broke it down further; Of those who responded:

frequency:
32%  every day
16% 3-4 times / week
32% 2-3 times / week
19%  1-2 times / month

Length of time per session

28%  1-5 min
46%  5-10 min
22%  10-15 min
17%  15-20 min

Many have multiple orgasms per session

80% use porn.


English survey was called the Gossard Big M survey and the Indian one was Agents of Ishq. 
As there are unsavory stuff on there in addition to the surveys I do not link them directly.