Author Topic: Another question in the Big "M" debate  (Read 5217 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Online DaveW

  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 17566
  • Manna: 201
  • Gender: Male
  • carrying Torah scroll
Another question in the Big "M" debate
« on: Thu Jan 09, 2014 - 13:05:02 »
Looking at the bottom of the first page of this forum one comes across discussion threads that seemed to start off but fizzled.  Interestingly, someone starts it back up only to fizzle again.

Masturbation: Is it okay?
Masturbation and attraction as singles ???
What are your defenses for porn/masturbation?
Is masterbation a sin?

Apparently many have this question but actually discussing it is problematic.  The statistics say that about 95% of late teens and 20s guys masturbate at least occasionally; and between 50 and 80% of young ladies of the same age goup do as well. In other words, almost everybody does it and no one wants to talk about it.

That last statistic (young ladies) has grown steadily over the few decades I have been watching (in the 70s it was put at about 20%) but is not surprizing in that just over a century ago western society did not think women had sex drives at all. What they felt (and the problems associated from lack of satisfaction) was described by Hypocrates circa 400 bc as "hysteria" and the medical community came up with methods of relieving this malady by inducing what medical journals called "paroxysm." (orgasm actually)  No connection with sex was made until the early 1900s.  Hysteria was removed from being a medical diagnosis of this 'problem' only about 60 years ago.


But I digress.  Back to the topic.  In this blog I found, the blogger asked this question of 7 different people:  "Is masturbation an acceptable component to healthy sexuality for Christians? "

http://rachelheldevans.com/blog/christians-masturbation

I would request that you read at least one of the responses and tell us if you agree or disagree.

To that I would add "If so - HOW?" or "In what way?"

I know that there are those who honestly believe that M is always sinful. While I respect that viewpoint, that is not being discussed here. This is about the responses in the referenced blog post.

Online DaveW

  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 17566
  • Manna: 201
  • Gender: Male
  • carrying Torah scroll
Re: Another question in the Big "M" debate
« Reply #1 on: Wed May 14, 2014 - 12:18:41 »
And so - true to the opening post, this one fizzled too. 

I guess everyone is TOO EMBARRASSED to talk about it.

It may also mean that a lot of us are doing it .....


Offline Leanne

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 341
  • Manna: 11
  • (T)ogether (E)veryone (A)chieves (M)ore
Re: Another question in the Big "M" debate
« Reply #2 on: Sat May 17, 2014 - 01:37:13 »
No, I don't think it's a sin. To be honest, I don't know where this thought has come from and why people think that masturbation isn't biblical. Yes, lust can result in addiction but people taking built up physical urges of their own body into their own hands, if you will, is completely okay for a single Christian - in fact that relief should help prevent temptations of extramarital relations.

I personally haven't masturbated since before I was married; even after my husband died I just never had the urge to. Interestingly though when I did so, and a teenager and a young adult, I did so with a great deal of shame and self loathing due to my upbringing which I understand how was incredibly misguided.

I don't want to come across as one who will tolerate anything just because you're falling to your lusts - as a mother of a couple of teenagers if there is any fornication under my roof that 'guest' isn't allowed over for that time that they're inevitably grounded for. The same goes for pornography, simply put because kids, once they like something bad for them, today have the know how to get it. But also, as a mother of a couple of teenagers who cleans the bed sheets, young people have a developing sexuality and God made us sexual creatures. We're not 'desecrating the Holy Spirit's temple' by exploring the nature of that temple.

Right now I'm hosting another boy while his family's issues are being resolved and he very much so fancies my daughter, to which they've been childhood friends. I recognize that due to taking him out of harm's way when he had nowhere else to go had plopped them right into temptation and I do have one eye out on their bahavior, my daughter and this boy both have a very genuine and close relationship with God which I suspect is better then mine, unlike my son who has lost that trust of me.

So I understand that if I ever wanted to again I would masturbate without any hesitation. Likewise, I feel it is a very important part of somebody as they grow up.

Offline chosenone

  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 30932
  • Manna: 538
  • Gender: Female
Re: Another question in the Big "M" debate
« Reply #3 on: Sat May 17, 2014 - 03:44:08 »
I cant see that its wrong biblically, and for singles, or those who are married and deprived of sex, or whose spouse is away for long periods of time surely its OK?
To me its the way people masturbate to porn that makes it wrong, lusting after other people, and also not to get addicted to it. A man I know, after his divorce, was told by God to use it sparingly, and he never used porn either. I believe that God understands our sexuality, but also knows full well that so many can get addicted to it, especially when porn is involved.

Offline geneh_33

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 755
  • Manna: 6
  • Gender: Male
  • A Southern Gentleman
Re: Another question in the Big "M" debate
« Reply #4 on: Sat May 17, 2014 - 10:11:32 »
Masturbation is adultery according to Jesus' definition.

Matthew 5:28
New International Version (NIV)
28 But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

Matthew 15:19
New International Version (NIV)
19 For out of the heart come evil thoughts—murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, slander.

It is a grave sexual sin that requires repentance and forgiveness. Masturbation is when one commits sexual sin due to evil thoughts from and in the heart. It is really just that simple.

Offline OldDad

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6505
  • Manna: 253
  • Gender: Male
  • Ol' Skool
Re: Another question in the Big "M" debate
« Reply #5 on: Sat May 17, 2014 - 10:32:14 »

"Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with all your might." Ecclesiastes 9:10

Offline Leanne

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 341
  • Manna: 11
  • (T)ogether (E)veryone (A)chieves (M)ore
Re: Another question in the Big "M" debate
« Reply #6 on: Sat May 17, 2014 - 10:46:02 »
Masturbation is adultery according to Jesus' definition.

Matthew 5:28
New International Version (NIV)
28 But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

Matthew 15:19
New International Version (NIV)
19 For out of the heart come evil thoughts—murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, slander.

It is a grave sexual sin that requires repentance and forgiveness. Masturbation is when one commits sexual sin due to evil thoughts from and in the heart. It is really just that simple.
Um, where did you get this idea that masturbation necessitates lusting after another? What about 'one has this natural tension that may need relief every once in a while and it feels good to do so' means that you HAVE to look upon another with lust? I mean if you said this about porn I would completely agree but somebody tending to their own bodily phenomena? Find me the verse that speaks up against that. When masturbation becomes an addiction, is done in response to porn or is done with somebody you're attracted to in mind then you can say it is sin - but because of addiction or adultary; not the masturbation.

Try speaking to God about the actual act, I found he was quite pragmatic on the issue.

Offline geneh_33

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 755
  • Manna: 6
  • Gender: Male
  • A Southern Gentleman
Re: Another question in the Big "M" debate
« Reply #7 on: Sat May 17, 2014 - 11:10:30 »
Masturbation is adultery according to Jesus' definition.

Matthew 5:28
New International Version (NIV)
28 But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

Matthew 15:19
New International Version (NIV)
19 For out of the heart come evil thoughts—murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, slander.

It is a grave sexual sin that requires repentance and forgiveness. Masturbation is when one commits sexual sin due to evil thoughts from and in the heart. It is really just that simple.
Um, where did you get this idea that masturbation necessitates lusting after another? What about 'one has this natural tension that may need relief every once in a while and it feels good to do so' means that you HAVE to look upon another with lust? I mean if you said this about porn I would completely agree but somebody tending to their own bodily phenomena? Find me the verse that speaks up against that. When masturbation becomes an addiction, is done in response to porn or is done with somebody you're attracted to in mind then you can say it is sin - but because of addiction or adultary; not the masturbation.

Try speaking to God about the actual act, I found he was quite pragmatic on the issue.

Masturbation cannot be done by a male individual without sexual gratification and that requires impure sexual thought. I cannot speak for female masturbation, obviously.

Offline chosenone

  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 30932
  • Manna: 538
  • Gender: Female
Re: Another question in the Big "M" debate
« Reply #8 on: Sat May 17, 2014 - 12:46:10 »
Masturbation is adultery according to Jesus' definition.

Matthew 5:28
New International Version (NIV)
28 But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

Matthew 15:19
New International Version (NIV)
19 For out of the heart come evil thoughts—murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, slander.

It is a grave sexual sin that requires repentance and forgiveness. Masturbation is when one commits sexual sin due to evil thoughts from and in the heart. It is really just that simple.
Um, where did you get this idea that masturbation necessitates lusting after another? What about 'one has this natural tension that may need relief every once in a while and it feels good to do so' means that you HAVE to look upon another with lust? I mean if you said this about porn I would completely agree but somebody tending to their own bodily phenomena? Find me the verse that speaks up against that. When masturbation becomes an addiction, is done in response to porn or is done with somebody you're attracted to in mind then you can say it is sin - but because of addiction or adultary; not the masturbation.

Try speaking to God about the actual act, I found he was quite pragmatic on the issue.

Masturbation cannot be done by a male individual without sexual gratification and that requires impure sexual thought. I cannot speak for female masturbation, obviously.
 

men can and do masturbate without looking at or thinking about porn or other women. If the man is married then he can think about his own wife.

Offline Leanne

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 341
  • Manna: 11
  • (T)ogether (E)veryone (A)chieves (M)ore
Re: Another question in the Big "M" debate
« Reply #9 on: Sun May 18, 2014 - 02:33:57 »
Masturbation is adultery according to Jesus' definition.

Matthew 5:28
New International Version (NIV)
28 But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

Matthew 15:19
New International Version (NIV)
19 For out of the heart come evil thoughts—murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, slander.

It is a grave sexual sin that requires repentance and forgiveness. Masturbation is when one commits sexual sin due to evil thoughts from and in the heart. It is really just that simple.
Um, where did you get this idea that masturbation necessitates lusting after another? What about 'one has this natural tension that may need relief every once in a while and it feels good to do so' means that you HAVE to look upon another with lust? I mean if you said this about porn I would completely agree but somebody tending to their own bodily phenomena? Find me the verse that speaks up against that. When masturbation becomes an addiction, is done in response to porn or is done with somebody you're attracted to in mind then you can say it is sin - but because of addiction or adultary; not the masturbation.

Try speaking to God about the actual act, I found he was quite pragmatic on the issue.

Masturbation cannot be done by a male individual without sexual gratification and that requires impure sexual thought. I cannot speak for female masturbation, obviously.
A young man I've spoken to on this very subject would disagree with you,

"...I don't have to think about her or any other girl while I'm doing it. I wouldn't reduce her to an object like that, she means too much to me. Usually just 2-3 times a week my body gets the urge to the point where it's just plain uncomfortable and really hard to sleep if I don't deal with it. It also helps with stressful times. What do I think about while I'm doing it? Well you just enjoy how good it feels at the time. It's sorta just your moment to enjoy and afterwards you thank God that that was apart of my design...."

So either he's really good at lying to God, me and himself or what you talk about does not apply to all makes at all.

Offline geneh_33

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 755
  • Manna: 6
  • Gender: Male
  • A Southern Gentleman
Re: Another question in the Big "M" debate
« Reply #10 on: Sun May 18, 2014 - 11:24:07 »
Masturbation is adultery according to Jesus' definition.

Matthew 5:28
New International Version (NIV)
28 But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

Matthew 15:19
New International Version (NIV)
19 For out of the heart come evil thoughts—murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, slander.

It is a grave sexual sin that requires repentance and forgiveness. Masturbation is when one commits sexual sin due to evil thoughts from and in the heart. It is really just that simple.
Um, where did you get this idea that masturbation necessitates lusting after another? What about 'one has this natural tension that may need relief every once in a while and it feels good to do so' means that you HAVE to look upon another with lust? I mean if you said this about porn I would completely agree but somebody tending to their own bodily phenomena? Find me the verse that speaks up against that. When masturbation becomes an addiction, is done in response to porn or is done with somebody you're attracted to in mind then you can say it is sin - but because of addiction or adultary; not the masturbation.

Try speaking to God about the actual act, I found he was quite pragmatic on the issue.

Masturbation cannot be done by a male individual without sexual gratification and that requires impure sexual thought. I cannot speak for female masturbation, obviously.
 

men can and do masturbate without looking at or thinking about porn or other women. If the man is married then he can think about his own wife.

In the case of the wife, I'll agree with you. Otherwise I don't.

Offline geneh_33

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 755
  • Manna: 6
  • Gender: Male
  • A Southern Gentleman
Re: Another question in the Big "M" debate
« Reply #11 on: Sun May 18, 2014 - 11:25:06 »
Masturbation is adultery according to Jesus' definition.

Matthew 5:28
New International Version (NIV)
28 But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

Matthew 15:19
New International Version (NIV)
19 For out of the heart come evil thoughts—murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, slander.

It is a grave sexual sin that requires repentance and forgiveness. Masturbation is when one commits sexual sin due to evil thoughts from and in the heart. It is really just that simple.
Um, where did you get this idea that masturbation necessitates lusting after another? What about 'one has this natural tension that may need relief every once in a while and it feels good to do so' means that you HAVE to look upon another with lust? I mean if you said this about porn I would completely agree but somebody tending to their own bodily phenomena? Find me the verse that speaks up against that. When masturbation becomes an addiction, is done in response to porn or is done with somebody you're attracted to in mind then you can say it is sin - but because of addiction or adultary; not the masturbation.

Try speaking to God about the actual act, I found he was quite pragmatic on the issue.

Masturbation cannot be done by a male individual without sexual gratification and that requires impure sexual thought. I cannot speak for female masturbation, obviously.
A young man I've spoken to on this very subject would disagree with you,

"...I don't have to think about her or any other girl while I'm doing it. I wouldn't reduce her to an object like that, she means too much to me. Usually just 2-3 times a week my body gets the urge to the point where it's just plain uncomfortable and really hard to sleep if I don't deal with it. It also helps with stressful times. What do I think about while I'm doing it? Well you just enjoy how good it feels at the time. It's sorta just your moment to enjoy and afterwards you thank God that that was apart of my design...."

So either he's really good at lying to God, me and himself or what you talk about does not apply to all makes at all.

I would say he is lying to himself.

Offline chosenone

  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 30932
  • Manna: 538
  • Gender: Female
Re: Another question in the Big "M" debate
« Reply #12 on: Sun May 18, 2014 - 13:35:15 »
geneh, you need to realise that not all men are the same just as not all women are the same . leanne and I both know men who can masturbate without porn or lusting after other women, so you need to accept that.

Online Rella

  • I Am A Spirit, I Have A Soul, And I Live In A Body who firmly states that Becoming an adult is the dumbest thing I’ve ever done.
  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 12234
  • Manna: 671
  • ULTRA MAGA~ EXTREMELY "IRRITATINGLY" DEPLORABLE
Re: Another question in the Big "M" debate
« Reply #13 on: Sun May 18, 2014 - 14:27:40 »
Masturbation is adultery according to Jesus' definition.

Matthew 5:28
New International Version (NIV)
28 But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.


It has been suggested The Gospel of Mathew was written by an anonymous person upwards to 100 years give or take after Jesus' death and not by Mathew himself.

If this is true, I cannot help but wonder how this statement may have been totally mis-stated.

Even if not true, it may be a statement of truth but it cannot be truly stated.

If you have a young man who has not known a woman, engaged to a young virgin with love in his heart it would be totally normal for him to lust after his intended as he would look upon her....  there cannot be adultery named in this. Perhaps immoral thoughts, but adultery ... no.

Yet the statement of Jesus would indicate he had committed adultery with her in his heart.

And it also would indicate that all you married men commit adultery in your hearts when you lust after your wives....

There is no distinction here and seems to be an incomplete idea.

As to masturbation being a sin?

I say ... no way.

1Cor 10:13 is why.

There has no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that you are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that you may be able to bear it.

So when the urge, or necessity comes around and to avoid a sexual sin of fornication with other then your wife, this is the escape.

Is it wrong to use porn. Yes it is.... but with it being all around either on the web or the way women dress
it is almost unavoidable.





Offline chosenone

  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 30932
  • Manna: 538
  • Gender: Female
Re: Another question in the Big "M" debate
« Reply #14 on: Sun May 18, 2014 - 16:04:49 »
Masturbation is adultery according to Jesus' definition.

Matthew 5:28
New International Version (NIV)
28 But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.


It has been suggested The Gospel of Mathew was written by an anonymous person upwards to 100 years give or take after Jesus' death and not by Mathew himself.

If this is true, I cannot help but wonder how this statement may have been totally mis-stated.

Even if not true, it may be a statement of truth but it cannot be truly stated.

If you have a young man who has not known a woman, engaged to a young virgin with love in his heart it would be totally normal for him to lust after his intended as he would look upon her....  there cannot be adultery named in this. Perhaps immoral thoughts, but adultery ... no.

Yet the statement of Jesus would indicate he had committed adultery with her in his heart.

And it also would indicate that all you married men commit adultery in your hearts when you lust after your wives....

There is no distinction here and seems to be an incomplete idea.

As to masturbation being a sin?

I say ... no way.

1Cor 10:13 is why.

There has no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that you are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that you may be able to bear it.

So when the urge, or necessity comes around and to avoid a sexual sin of fornication with other then your wife, this is the escape.

Is it wrong to use porn. Yes it is.... but with it being all around either on the web or the way women dress
it is almost unavoidable.





 

So are you saying that men cant avoid looking at porn on line?

We need to take what it says in Matthew as fact no matter when it was written.  A man desiring his wife is completely allowed , read song of songs, she is his wife. If he does the same to other women its wrong.

Offline Leanne

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 341
  • Manna: 11
  • (T)ogether (E)veryone (A)chieves (M)ore
Re: Another question in the Big "M" debate
« Reply #15 on: Sun May 18, 2014 - 18:15:55 »
Masturbation is adultery according to Jesus' definition.

Matthew 5:28
New International Version (NIV)
28 But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

Matthew 15:19
New International Version (NIV)
19 For out of the heart come evil thoughts—murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, slander.

It is a grave sexual sin that requires repentance and forgiveness. Masturbation is when one commits sexual sin due to evil thoughts from and in the heart. It is really just that simple.
Um, where did you get this idea that masturbation necessitates lusting after another? What about 'one has this natural tension that may need relief every once in a while and it feels good to do so' means that you HAVE to look upon another with lust? I mean if you said this about porn I would completely agree but somebody tending to their own bodily phenomena? Find me the verse that speaks up against that. When masturbation becomes an addiction, is done in response to porn or is done with somebody you're attracted to in mind then you can say it is sin - but because of addiction or adultary; not the masturbation.

Try speaking to God about the actual act, I found he was quite pragmatic on the issue.

Masturbation cannot be done by a male individual without sexual gratification and that requires impure sexual thought. I cannot speak for female masturbation, obviously.
A young man I've spoken to on this very subject would disagree with you,

"...I don't have to think about her or any other girl while I'm doing it. I wouldn't reduce her to an object like that, she means too much to me. Usually just 2-3 times a week my body gets the urge to the point where it's just plain uncomfortable and really hard to sleep if I don't deal with it. It also helps with stressful times. What do I think about while I'm doing it? Well you just enjoy how good it feels at the time. It's sorta just your moment to enjoy and afterwards you thank God that that was apart of my design...."

So either he's really good at lying to God, me and himself or what you talk about does not apply to all makes at all.

I would say he is lying to himself.
Well, I've actually shown him what you have to say and this young man really wants to ask you if you've spoken to God about this matter. He's agreed that if you want to talk to him, he'll be happy. If so, I'll message you his e-mail address.

Online Rella

  • I Am A Spirit, I Have A Soul, And I Live In A Body who firmly states that Becoming an adult is the dumbest thing I’ve ever done.
  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 12234
  • Manna: 671
  • ULTRA MAGA~ EXTREMELY "IRRITATINGLY" DEPLORABLE
Re: Another question in the Big "M" debate
« Reply #16 on: Sun May 18, 2014 - 19:00:41 »
Masturbation is adultery according to Jesus' definition.

Matthew 5:28
New International Version (NIV)
28 But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.


It has been suggested The Gospel of Mathew was written by an anonymous person upwards to 100 years give or take after Jesus' death and not by Mathew himself.

If this is true, I cannot help but wonder how this statement may have been totally mis-stated.

Even if not true, it may be a statement of truth but it cannot be truly stated.

If you have a young man who has not known a woman, engaged to a young virgin with love in his heart it would be totally normal for him to lust after his intended as he would look upon her....  there cannot be adultery named in this. Perhaps immoral thoughts, but adultery ... no.

Yet the statement of Jesus would indicate he had committed adultery with her in his heart.

And it also would indicate that all you married men commit adultery in your hearts when you lust after your wives....

There is no distinction here and seems to be an incomplete idea.

As to masturbation being a sin?

I say ... no way.

1Cor 10:13 is why.

There has no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that you are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that you may be able to bear it.

So when the urge, or necessity comes around and to avoid a sexual sin of fornication with other then your wife, this is the escape.

Is it wrong to use porn. Yes it is.... but with it being all around either on the web or the way women dress
it is almost unavoidable.





 

So are you saying that men cant avoid looking at porn on line?

We need to take what it says in Matthew as fact no matter when it was written.  A man desiring his wife is completely allowed , read song of songs, she is his wife. If he does the same to other women its wrong.

No.. I am not saying that men cannot avoid looking, what I am saying is that
everything today, including the new headlines on the home page on the computers manage to get some form of something showing all to often.

And by their Divine creation it is stimulus that makes things work as it should.

It is not that they cannot look but it is always being thrust in their faces both online and off.

Men were not built with a switch that can turn on and off at will.

Therefore, with enough even unwanted stimulation their minds start to work.

There have been more then on lady in other threads that tells of her dear hubby closing their eyes when something objectionable is on TV or even inappropriate clothing in church.

The reason for that is because there is no off switch built into them.

That is what I am saying.

Not everyone can control things.

 

Offline geneh_33

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 755
  • Manna: 6
  • Gender: Male
  • A Southern Gentleman
Re: Another question in the Big "M" debate
« Reply #17 on: Mon May 19, 2014 - 12:21:37 »
geneh, you need to realise that not all men are the same just as not all women are the same . leanne and I both know men who can masturbate without porn or lusting after other women, so you need to accept that.

I do not. You do not know what is going on in the mind.

Offline geneh_33

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 755
  • Manna: 6
  • Gender: Male
  • A Southern Gentleman
Re: Another question in the Big "M" debate
« Reply #18 on: Mon May 19, 2014 - 12:25:33 »
Masturbation is adultery according to Jesus' definition.

Matthew 5:28
New International Version (NIV)
28 But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

Matthew 15:19
New International Version (NIV)
19 For out of the heart come evil thoughts—murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, slander.

It is a grave sexual sin that requires repentance and forgiveness. Masturbation is when one commits sexual sin due to evil thoughts from and in the heart. It is really just that simple.
Um, where did you get this idea that masturbation necessitates lusting after another? What about 'one has this natural tension that may need relief every once in a while and it feels good to do so' means that you HAVE to look upon another with lust? I mean if you said this about porn I would completely agree but somebody tending to their own bodily phenomena? Find me the verse that speaks up against that. When masturbation becomes an addiction, is done in response to porn or is done with somebody you're attracted to in mind then you can say it is sin - but because of addiction or adultary; not the masturbation.

Try speaking to God about the actual act, I found he was quite pragmatic on the issue.

Masturbation cannot be done by a male individual without sexual gratification and that requires impure sexual thought. I cannot speak for female masturbation, obviously.
A young man I've spoken to on this very subject would disagree with you,

"...I don't have to think about her or any other girl while I'm doing it. I wouldn't reduce her to an object like that, she means too much to me. Usually just 2-3 times a week my body gets the urge to the point where it's just plain uncomfortable and really hard to sleep if I don't deal with it. It also helps with stressful times. What do I think about while I'm doing it? Well you just enjoy how good it feels at the time. It's sorta just your moment to enjoy and afterwards you thank God that that was apart of my design...."

So either he's really good at lying to God, me and himself or what you talk about does not apply to all makes at all.

I would say he is lying to himself.
Well, I've actually shown him what you have to say and this young man really wants to ask you if you've spoken to God about this matter. He's agreed that if you want to talk to him, he'll be happy. If so, I'll message you his e-mail address.

Not interested. I'm confident you can guide him through it . I will pray for him but I do have some real trust issues due to prior problems with trusting people on the internet with my personal info.

My email address is hidden on here for a reason.
« Last Edit: Mon May 19, 2014 - 12:27:48 by geneh_33 »

Offline chosenone

  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 30932
  • Manna: 538
  • Gender: Female
Re: Another question in the Big "M" debate
« Reply #19 on: Mon May 19, 2014 - 14:12:08 »
Masturbation is adultery according to Jesus' definition.

Matthew 5:28
New International Version (NIV)
28 But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.


It has been suggested The Gospel of Mathew was written by an anonymous person upwards to 100 years give or take after Jesus' death and not by Mathew himself.

If this is true, I cannot help but wonder how this statement may have been totally mis-stated.

Even if not true, it may be a statement of truth but it cannot be truly stated.

If you have a young man who has not known a woman, engaged to a young virgin with love in his heart it would be totally normal for him to lust after his intended as he would look upon her....  there cannot be adultery named in this. Perhaps immoral thoughts, but adultery ... no.

Yet the statement of Jesus would indicate he had committed adultery with her in his heart.

And it also would indicate that all you married men commit adultery in your hearts when you lust after your wives....

There is no distinction here and seems to be an incomplete idea.

As to masturbation being a sin?

I say ... no way.

1Cor 10:13 is why.

There has no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that you are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that you may be able to bear it.

So when the urge, or necessity comes around and to avoid a sexual sin of fornication with other then your wife, this is the escape.

Is it wrong to use porn. Yes it is.... but with it being all around either on the web or the way women dress
it is almost unavoidable.





 

So are you saying that men cant avoid looking at porn on line?

We need to take what it says in Matthew as fact no matter when it was written.  A man desiring his wife is completely allowed , read song of songs, she is his wife. If he does the same to other women its wrong.

No.. I am not saying that men cannot avoid looking, what I am saying is that
everything today, including the new headlines on the home page on the computers manage to get some form of something showing all to often.

And by their Divine creation it is stimulus that makes things work as it should.

It is not that they cannot look but it is always being thrust in their faces both online and off.

Men were not built with a switch that can turn on and off at will.

Therefore, with enough even unwanted stimulation their minds start to work.

There have been more then on lady in other threads that tells of her dear hubby closing their eyes when something objectionable is on TV or even inappropriate clothing in church.

The reason for that is because there is no off switch built into them.

That is what I am saying.

Not everyone can control things.

 
 

yes thats my husband.
I guess their switch is in what they do when confronted with it, stare or look away.  The same if women see a good looking man with his top off, they can look at him or or look away. Its our choice.

Offline chosenone

  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 30932
  • Manna: 538
  • Gender: Female
Re: Another question in the Big "M" debate
« Reply #20 on: Mon May 19, 2014 - 14:18:25 »
geneh, you need to realise that not all men are the same just as not all women are the same . leanne and I both know men who can masturbate without porn or lusting after other women, so you need to accept that.

I do not. You do not know what is going on in the mind.
 

Of course I do if its my husband or someone who is close to me and completely honest and open with me. Some women have trouble with porn, others dont, so that's a big difference to start with. I have heard women say they are tempted by a good looking guy with his shirt off, I am not the least bit interested in other men with their shirts off, only my husband, so you see we are all different.   

Offline Leanne

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 341
  • Manna: 11
  • (T)ogether (E)veryone (A)chieves (M)ore
Re: Another question in the Big "M" debate
« Reply #21 on: Mon May 19, 2014 - 17:06:47 »
Masturbation is adultery according to Jesus' definition.

Matthew 5:28
New International Version (NIV)
28 But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

Matthew 15:19
New International Version (NIV)
19 For out of the heart come evil thoughts—murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, slander.

It is a grave sexual sin that requires repentance and forgiveness. Masturbation is when one commits sexual sin due to evil thoughts from and in the heart. It is really just that simple.
Um, where did you get this idea that masturbation necessitates lusting after another? What about 'one has this natural tension that may need relief every once in a while and it feels good to do so' means that you HAVE to look upon another with lust? I mean if you said this about porn I would completely agree but somebody tending to their own bodily phenomena? Find me the verse that speaks up against that. When masturbation becomes an addiction, is done in response to porn or is done with somebody you're attracted to in mind then you can say it is sin - but because of addiction or adultary; not the masturbation.

Try speaking to God about the actual act, I found he was quite pragmatic on the issue.

Masturbation cannot be done by a male individual without sexual gratification and that requires impure sexual thought. I cannot speak for female masturbation, obviously.
A young man I've spoken to on this very subject would disagree with you,

"...I don't have to think about her or any other girl while I'm doing it. I wouldn't reduce her to an object like that, she means too much to me. Usually just 2-3 times a week my body gets the urge to the point where it's just plain uncomfortable and really hard to sleep if I don't deal with it. It also helps with stressful times. What do I think about while I'm doing it? Well you just enjoy how good it feels at the time. It's sorta just your moment to enjoy and afterwards you thank God that that was apart of my design...."

So either he's really good at lying to God, me and himself or what you talk about does not apply to all makes at all.

I would say he is lying to himself.
Well, I've actually shown him what you have to say and this young man really wants to ask you if you've spoken to God about this matter. He's agreed that if you want to talk to him, he'll be happy. If so, I'll message you his e-mail address.

Not interested. I'm confident you can guide him through it . I will pray for him but I do have some real trust issues due to prior problems with trusting people on the internet with my personal info.

My email address is hidden on here for a reason.
No problem, he's praying for you I hope you know ;)

Offline Leanne

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 341
  • Manna: 11
  • (T)ogether (E)veryone (A)chieves (M)ore
Re: Another question in the Big "M" debate
« Reply #22 on: Mon May 19, 2014 - 18:16:02 »
geneh, you need to realise that not all men are the same just as not all women are the same . leanne and I both know men who can masturbate without porn or lusting after other women, so you need to accept that.

I do not. You do not know what is going on in the mind.
Many people do not know God, he certainly exists.
You too don't know what is going on in the minds of men and boys who claim to masturbate without lusting after others.

Offline Adeptus Astartes

  • Herald of Slaanesh
  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 214
  • Manna: 2
  • Gender: Male
  • Pain and pleasure in excess are indistinguishable
Re: Another question in the Big "M" debate
« Reply #23 on: Mon May 19, 2014 - 19:38:42 »
Masturbation cannot be done by a male individual without sexual gratification and that requires impure sexual thought. I cannot speak for female masturbation, obviously.
Now, coming from a 'male individual' who has no motivation to not lust after others (besides, I'm well and truely damned for adultery*, yet alone in the mind) I can attest thaat this is no where near the case. I mean sure, porn, erotica and a colorful imagination helps but sometimes your body is up for it even though your head isn't. I mean really by that point is'd just nice feeling procrastination. Apologize for the detail but the last time I have, well y'know, I was in a debate on another forum about the applications of sociology (instigated between a Marxist and a Randian no less). Now, I don't find sociology particularly arousing but at the time I hadn't seen my girlfriend in a week and my body has obviously gotten used to the attention. There isn't any self deception involved, mostly it's just a really nice feeling way to waste time and occupy your hands.



*noting that the term used in its context didn't only refer to sleeping on your spouse as it does today

Online DaveW

  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 17566
  • Manna: 201
  • Gender: Male
  • carrying Torah scroll
Re: Another question in the Big "M" debate
« Reply #24 on: Tue May 20, 2014 - 05:32:27 »
Masturbation cannot be done by a male individual without sexual gratification and that requires impure sexual thought.

Really?  When I was a teen I was a once-a-day (on average) kinda guy and was doing so for a couple of years before I found out that it had anything to do with sex.  I thought it was tied to urinating. As a result, sexual thoughts and images (after I found out) actually hindered the process for me.

So don't tell me something I know is not right.

ETA:

Can you give me chapter and verse to prove that one cannot masturbate without inappropriate thoughts?

The book of Leviticus lists in detail all kinds of sexual behaviors that are sinful and prohibited.  Masturbation is not included even obliquely.  That is surprising as many of the prohibitions in the Law have to do with the pagan worship practices of Egypt and Canaan. Male masturbation was a widely used religious practice in Egypt and is depicted prominently in many of the hieroglyphs that date from the Israelite captivity there.

The only passage in the bible I have found that speaks to masturbation is Song of Solomon chapter 5.  Shulamite masturbates and is called "undefiled."

2 “I was asleep but my heart was awake.
A voice! My beloved was knocking:
‘Open to me, my sister, my darling,
My dove, my perfect one!
For my head is drenched with dew,
My locks with the damp of the night.’
3 “I have taken off my dress,
How can I put it on again?
I have washed my feet,
How can I dirty them again?
4 “My beloved extended his hand by the hole,
And my feelings were aroused for him.
5 “I arose to open to my beloved;
And my hands dripped with myrrh,
And my fingers with liquid myrrh,
On the handles of the bolt.

If you read in the preceding chapters, myrrh describes the female wetness from sexual arousal.
« Last Edit: Tue May 20, 2014 - 07:38:58 by DaveW »

Online DaveW

  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 17566
  • Manna: 201
  • Gender: Male
  • carrying Torah scroll
Re: Another question in the Big "M" debate
« Reply #25 on: Tue May 20, 2014 - 05:37:09 »
geneh, you need to realise that not all men are the same just as not all women are the same . leanne and I both know men who can masturbate without porn or lusting after other women, so you need to accept that.
I do not. You do not know what is going on in the mind.

I know what is going on in your mind.  Psychologists call it "projecting." You are taking your own experience and assuming it is universal so you project that onto what others think feel and do.

Online DaveW

  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 17566
  • Manna: 201
  • Gender: Male
  • carrying Torah scroll
Re: Another question in the Big "M" debate
« Reply #26 on: Tue May 20, 2014 - 05:41:14 »
So as the OP, I am asking again:

"Is masturbation an acceptable component to healthy sexuality for Christians? "

Why or why not?

Offline geneh_33

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 755
  • Manna: 6
  • Gender: Male
  • A Southern Gentleman
Re: Another question in the Big "M" debate
« Reply #27 on: Thu Jun 05, 2014 - 17:25:57 »
geneh, you need to realise that not all men are the same just as not all women are the same . leanne and I both know men who can masturbate without porn or lusting after other women, so you need to accept that.
I do not. You do not know what is going on in the mind.

I know what is going on in your mind.  Psychologists call it "projecting." You are taking your own experience and assuming it is universal so you project that onto what others think feel and do.

Don't kid yourself. I know what goes through the minds of young men when they masturbate. Don't you? Do you think they are thinking about flowers or maybe doing the laundry later on? Please.

Offline geneh_33

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 755
  • Manna: 6
  • Gender: Male
  • A Southern Gentleman
Re: Another question in the Big "M" debate
« Reply #28 on: Thu Jun 05, 2014 - 17:27:15 »
So as the OP, I am asking again:

"Is masturbation an acceptable component to healthy sexuality for Christians? "

Why or why not?

No, it is not for a male individual. I do not believe a male can masturbate without thinking sinful thoughts. If you do not agree, that's okay, I'm not going to argue about it.

Offline Leanne

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 341
  • Manna: 11
  • (T)ogether (E)veryone (A)chieves (M)ore
Re: Another question in the Big "M" debate
« Reply #29 on: Sat Jun 07, 2014 - 07:50:53 »
geneh, you need to realise that not all men are the same just as not all women are the same . leanne and I both know men who can masturbate without porn or lusting after other women, so you need to accept that.
I do not. You do not know what is going on in the mind.

I know what is going on in your mind.  Psychologists call it "projecting." You are taking your own experience and assuming it is universal so you project that onto what others think feel and do.

Don't kid yourself. I know what goes through the minds of young men when they masturbate. Don't you? Do you think they are thinking about flowers or maybe doing the laundry later on? Please.
Several men have told you, they think about how good it feels. Believe it or not, not all men and boys are you and some can keep their lust under control when their body physiologically needs release. Do you want proof that men can do so without consciously lusting? Wet dreams for one. You're asleep, I'm pretty sure teenagers don't gain the ability to latently dream all of a sudden. Or how about prepubescent boys playing with themselves? They can't even comprehend such feelings but when the pants come off, the hands go down.

Your insistence that men can't masturbate without lust is is bordering on laughable.

Offline chosenone

  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 30932
  • Manna: 538
  • Gender: Female
Re: Another question in the Big "M" debate
« Reply #30 on: Sat Jun 07, 2014 - 09:12:21 »
So as the OP, I am asking again:

"Is masturbation an acceptable component to healthy sexuality for Christians? "

Why or why not?

Well, for singles possibly if its kept under control, and there is no porn or similar involved. For those who are married, if they are both obeying God there should be no need unless they are separated for long periods, or one is very ill or something.

Online DaveW

  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 17566
  • Manna: 201
  • Gender: Male
  • carrying Torah scroll
Re: Another question in the Big "M" debate
« Reply #31 on: Mon Jun 09, 2014 - 08:38:36 »
Your insistence that men can't masturbate without lust is is bordering on laughable.

Actually, the way the mind works is that it re-wires itself on all strong stimuli; good or bad. (and orgasm is a very POWERFUL good stimulus) Every time a guy jacks off, what his mind is thinking about during those intense seconds gets wired into the neural pathways.  It is what leads to fetishes where something becomes a necessity for a full response.  And since there can be  no "joy" without that particular thought or image or item; we assume it is the same for everyone else.

But that is where it falls down - it is NOT the same for everyone.

Online DaveW

  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 17566
  • Manna: 201
  • Gender: Male
  • carrying Torah scroll
Re: Another question in the Big "M" debate
« Reply #32 on: Tue Jun 10, 2014 - 10:14:32 »
Well, for singles possibly if its kept under control, and there is no porn or similar involved.

I think it is easy for us marrieds to be condescending on the singles in this area; many of whom are experiencing the strongest urges they will ever have in their whole lives.  (for guys that is from about age 17 to 21 and for the gals it is mid-teens and early 30s)  We have our wives or husbands to take care of those urges; or at least that is how it is SUPPOSED to work but does not in many cases.

But I really want to hear from the singles here as to whether they think M can be useful for them, not only in relieving the "need," but also in embracing and developing a healthy sexuality.

If so - what would that look like to you?

Online Rella

  • I Am A Spirit, I Have A Soul, And I Live In A Body who firmly states that Becoming an adult is the dumbest thing I’ve ever done.
  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 12234
  • Manna: 671
  • ULTRA MAGA~ EXTREMELY "IRRITATINGLY" DEPLORABLE
Re: Another question in the Big "M" debate
« Reply #33 on: Thu Jun 19, 2014 - 18:16:23 »
Well, for singles possibly if its kept under control, and there is no porn or similar involved.

I think it is easy for us marrieds to be condescending on the singles in this area; many of whom are experiencing the strongest urges they will ever have in their whole lives.  (for guys that is from about age 17 to 21 and for the gals it is mid-teens and early 30s)  We have our wives or husbands to take care of those urges; or at least that is how it is SUPPOSED to work but does not in many cases.

But I really want to hear from the singles here as to whether they think M can be useful for them, not only in relieving the "need," but also in embracing and developing a healthy sexuality.

If so - what would that look like to you?

I feel somewhat awkward and embarrassed to be posting in this thread but here goes.

I am a single female in her 60s and as to M being useful beyond relieving the need and developing into
a healthy sexuality I will state the following.

When I was younger that (M) was part of my life. I did not view it as sin but of necessity that I will not expound on here. I also viewed it as training the body, but again will not go into that.

When I was in my late 30s I did a 180 on my own lifestyle and spent the next 24 years growing closer to God, or at least trying to.

Part of my pathway during that time was to totally abstain ... or more accurately try to abstain from any
thing that would have to do with M. 

However, the oddest thing would happen during that time.

The longer I went the more I would have actual explicit dreams regarding the true need relieving the need which was well beyond my control and involved thoughts and actions that would never have entered my conscious mind if I was not abstaining. Without expounding on these dreams, they were very real experiences of a bodily reaction as I would wake up right in the middle of ______. ( Well, you know)

And it was not from any self help.

It was during this period that I became truly aware that needs and cycles were created in the human
body and for a single person the subject of this thread was/is of necessity.


Offline raggthyme13

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 701
  • Manna: 10
Re: Another question in the Big "M" debate
« Reply #34 on: Fri Jun 20, 2014 - 05:36:43 »
geneh, you need to realise that not all men are the same just as not all women are the same . leanne and I both know men who can masturbate without porn or lusting after other women, so you need to accept that.
I do not. You do not know what is going on in the mind.

I know what is going on in your mind.  Psychologists call it "projecting." You are taking your own experience and assuming it is universal so you project that onto what others think feel and do.

Don't kid yourself. I know what goes through the minds of young men when they masturbate. Don't you? Do you think they are thinking about flowers or maybe doing the laundry later on? Please.
Several men have told you, they think about how good it feels. Believe it or not, not all men and boys are you and some can keep their lust under control when their body physiologically needs release. Do you want proof that men can do so without consciously lusting? Wet dreams for one. You're asleep, I'm pretty sure teenagers don't gain the ability to latently dream all of a sudden. Or how about prepubescent boys playing with themselves? They can't even comprehend such feelings but when the pants come off, the hands go down.

Your insistence that men can't masturbate without lust is is bordering on laughable.

Do you believe Jesus did such things as a young man? Surely he had natural urges as well… isn't that why boys have wet dreams?? A natural release rather than a forced one?


 

     
anything