Author Topic: Another question in the Big "M" debate  (Read 3373 times)

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Offline DaveW

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Re: Another question in the Big "M" debate
« Reply #35 on: Fri Jun 20, 2014 - 06:02:29 »
Do you believe Jesus did such things as a young man? Surely he had natural urges as well… isn't that why boys have wet dreams?? A natural release rather than a forced one?

We have no information on whether Our Lord did that or not.  So it really does not matter one way or the other. If it DID matter, mention would have been made in scripture.

As to "wet dreams," only about 40% of men/boys experience that. What about the other 60%? We have the dreams and wake up just before the "wet"part.  Forget about ever going back to sleep.

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Re: Another question in the Big "M" debate
« Reply #35 on: Fri Jun 20, 2014 - 06:02:29 »

Offline Rella

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Re: Another question in the Big "M" debate
« Reply #36 on: Fri Jun 20, 2014 - 07:04:41 »


Do you believe Jesus did such things as a young man? Surely he had natural urges as well… isn't that why boys have wet dreams?? A natural release rather than a forced one?

It does not matter what I , or anyone believes on this but in answer to your question I say possibly and probably.

We are told...

Hebrews 4 vs 15
 15For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

And then we are also told...

1 Cor 10 vs 13
 13There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

In my opinion I believe M is the way to escape the sin of fornication.

 Onan...  is the most mentioned by the naysayers on this subject, trying to prove Biblically that M is a sin, because he spilled his seed, rather then impregnate his widowed sister-in-law.

God killed him. Not because of M but because he tried to not impregnate his widowed sister-in-law.

There is no where in the Bible specifically forbidding this M.

Therefore I believe this is the way God intended singles to avoid the sin of fornication.

Offline DaveW

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Re: Another question in the Big "M" debate
« Reply #37 on: Fri Jun 20, 2014 - 12:02:15 »
To my way of reading the text - there is only one place where M is talked about:

Song of Solomon 5.2 “I was asleep but my heart was awake.
A voice! My beloved was knocking:
‘Open to me, my sister, my darling,
My dove, my perfect one!
For my head is drenched with dew,
My locks with the damp of the night.’
3 “I have taken off my dress,
How can I put it on again?
I have washed my feet,
How can I dirty them again?
4 “My beloved extended his hand through the opening, [lit: hand by the hole]
And my feelings were aroused for him.
5 “I arose to open to my beloved;
And my hands dripped with myrrh,
And my fingers with liquid myrrh,
On the handles of the bolt.

Since we can gather from other SOS passages that "myrrh" was symbolic for female lubrication ... ::blushing::  I think you can get the idea of what she was doing in that half-awake state.

Offline Leanne

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Re: Another question in the Big "M" debate
« Reply #38 on: Fri Jun 27, 2014 - 11:56:14 »
geneh, you need to realise that not all men are the same just as not all women are the same . leanne and I both know men who can masturbate without porn or lusting after other women, so you need to accept that.
I do not. You do not know what is going on in the mind.

I know what is going on in your mind.  Psychologists call it "projecting." You are taking your own experience and assuming it is universal so you project that onto what others think feel and do.

Don't kid yourself. I know what goes through the minds of young men when they masturbate. Don't you? Do you think they are thinking about flowers or maybe doing the laundry later on? Please.
Several men have told you, they think about how good it feels. Believe it or not, not all men and boys are you and some can keep their lust under control when their body physiologically needs release. Do you want proof that men can do so without consciously lusting? Wet dreams for one. You're asleep, I'm pretty sure teenagers don't gain the ability to latently dream all of a sudden. Or how about prepubescent boys playing with themselves? They can't even comprehend such feelings but when the pants come off, the hands go down.

Your insistence that men can't masturbate without lust is is bordering on laughable.

Do you believe Jesus did such things as a young man? Surely he had natural urges as well… isn't that why boys have wet dreams?? A natural release rather than a forced one?
Natural urges? Because he was some other man, right? No, he was God on earth. I cannot say what God did as a teenager. however, humans who are sexual creatures? They're a different matter to God.

Offline DaveW

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Re: Another question in the Big "M" debate
« Reply #39 on: Mon Jun 30, 2014 - 05:37:01 »
Do you believe Jesus did such things as a young man? Surely he had natural urges as well… isn't that why boys have wet dreams?? A natural release rather than a forced one?
Natural urges? Because he was some other man, right? No, he was God on earth. I cannot say what God did as a teenager. however, humans who are sexual creatures? They're a different matter to God.

I am not sure what you are saying here Leanne.  Are you saying the teen aged Jesus did NOT have sexual desires? 

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Re: Another question in the Big "M" debate
« Reply #39 on: Mon Jun 30, 2014 - 05:37:01 »



Offline Leanne

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Re: Another question in the Big "M" debate
« Reply #40 on: Fri Jul 04, 2014 - 08:24:56 »
Do you believe Jesus did such things as a young man? Surely he had natural urges as well… isn't that why boys have wet dreams?? A natural release rather than a forced one?
Natural urges? Because he was some other man, right? No, he was God on earth. I cannot say what God did as a teenager. however, humans who are sexual creatures? They're a different matter to God.

I am not sure what you are saying here Leanne.  Are you saying the teen aged Jesus did NOT have sexual desires?
I'm saying that Jesus was not any man but a God made flesh and I can't say what applies to man applies to Christ.

Offline DaveW

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Re: Another question in the Big "M" debate
« Reply #41 on: Fri Jul 04, 2014 - 08:39:24 »
I am not sure what you are saying here Leanne.  Are you saying the teen aged Jesus did NOT have sexual desires?
I'm saying that Jesus was not any man but a God made flesh and I can't say what applies to man applies to Christ.

Oooo.  You are treading on some dangerous ground there, theologically.  If Our Lord was not FULLY human, - meaning that EVERYTHING we experience He experienced, then you are drifting quite close to gnosticism. It is an ancient heresy that came from greek pagan "dualism" and said that everything spiritual was good and everything physical was bad.  The christian version of it sought to diminish or eliminate Jesus' humanity. 

Offline Leanne

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Re: Another question in the Big "M" debate
« Reply #42 on: Wed Jul 09, 2014 - 04:37:51 »
I think you're misunderstanding me. I do not think that all which is physical is evil, far from it - the material universe is made and blessed by God. But we are fallen creatures and have an inherently sinful nature. God, by contrast, is wholly good which is why Jesus was a very special individual. Also, not exactly what I said: " I cannot say what God did as a teenager".

Offline DaveW

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Re: Another question in the Big "M" debate
« Reply #43 on: Wed Jul 09, 2014 - 06:20:03 »
I did not say you had crossed over into gnosticism; rather, that your statement concerning the nature of Our Lord was straying too close to it.

It is very easy to just think of Our Lord as Divinity, but we get nervous when we start considering all that is involved in Him being "Fully man." Ephesians says He emptied Himself and took the form of man. Which means that although He was fully Divine, He did nothing from His divinity.  Not His avoidance of sin, not even his miracles. He relied on the power of the Holy Spirit in all that so he could be a legitimate EXAMPLE for us. 

Offline Rella

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Re: Another question in the Big "M" debate
« Reply #44 on: Sun Jul 13, 2014 - 14:27:49 »
People, people, people....

What is it about the written Word that is unclear to you?

We are specifically told in Hebrews 4:15 KJV

15For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

and Hebrews 4:15 NIV

15 For we do not have a high priest who is unable to empathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are—yet he did not sin.

This is Jesus that is being talked about here.

He was tempted, just like every other 100% red blooded male reading this
has been at some point in his lifetime..

Yet He was without sin not because of His divine nature or DNA
but because of 1 Cor 10:13

1 Cor 10:13 KJV

13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

 1 Cor10:13 NIV

13 No temptation[a] has overtaken you except what is common to mankind. And God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted,[c] he will also provide a way out so that you can endure it.

And a way out very well could be, and probably is M.

Did HE?  I don't care. It should not matter. There is nothing that lessens Him and what He did for us.

We are taught he came as 100% man.
Fact: He was born from a woman.
Fact: He was brought up as a little Jewish boy.
Fact: He was circumcised, as was the expected custom.




Offline Bluesman

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Re: Another question in the Big "M" debate
« Reply #45 on: Thu Aug 28, 2014 - 18:01:20 »

"Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with all your might." Ecclesiastes 9:10

 rofl ::giggle::

Offline DaveW

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Re: Another question in the Big "M" debate
« Reply #46 on: Tue Oct 27, 2020 - 08:57:43 »
It was during this period that I became truly aware that needs and cycles were created in the human body and for a single person the subject of this thread was/is of necessity.
I know this is a VERY OLD ZOMBIE THREAD, but an important one.

I never properly thanked you Rella for that statement.  ::thanks::

In his 1969 book "The Stork is Dead," Presby minister Rev Charles Shedd said that masturbation was "God's gift to singles."  In 1981, Dr Cliff Penner and his wife titled their first book "The Gift of Sex;" and followed it up 3 years later with "A Gift for All Ages."

Sexual enjoyment is a gift from God.  Those authors and many others agree with that.  It is given at puberty, when almost all of us are single, and will be for many years.  So how do you enjoy God's good gift as a single?  You masturbate. And thank Him for  every good feeling and sensation.

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Re: Another question in the Big "M" debate
« Reply #47 on: Sun Nov 01, 2020 - 15:35:30 »
I don't guess many people will want to talk about it. 

It's embarrassing, because its considered stigmatic in our culture.  It shouldn't be stigmatic, but it is.  Secular culture tries to tell us that if we masturbate, we must be a loser with no girlfriend.  That isn't true of course, that's just bullies trying to lift themselves up by pushing everyone else down.

Jarrod

Offline Rella

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Re: Another question in the Big "M" debate
« Reply #48 on: Sun Nov 01, 2020 - 17:12:43 »
I know this is a VERY OLD ZOMBIE THREAD, but an important one.

I never properly thanked you Rella for that statement.  ::thanks::

In his 1969 book "The Stork is Dead," Presby minister Rev Charles Shedd said that masturbation was "God's gift to singles."  In 1981, Dr Cliff Penner and his wife titled their first book "The Gift of Sex;" and followed it up 3 years later with "A Gift for All Ages."

Sexual enjoyment is a gift from God.  Those authors and many others agree with that.  It is given at puberty, when almost all of us are single, and will be for many years.  So how do you enjoy God's good gift as a single?  You masturbate. And thank Him for  every good feeling and sensation.

It has been a problem for women as well as men, although most women shy away from ever admitting it is a problem for them.

Embarrassment, guilt and shame spring to mind as all the reasons why anyone would try to control things when certain cycles ... if I might call them that... cause a need for a lot of cold showers or endless rounds on the treadmill....that only ever seem to delay the inevitable, and are totally impractical at 2AM.

I have always heard discussions of how it is not forbidden in the bible but along the lines of sexual immorality, which coversanythingoutside ot themarriage bedor by agreement between husband and wife stillmake it a no no.

I never hear anyone bring up one verse that seems to support your views Dave...

1 Cor 13:10

No temptation has overtaken you except such as is common to man; but God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will also make the way of escape, that you may be able to bear it.

And I can promise,and I am sure most other singles will too, that the way of escape is not through prayer. ::blushing::

Jarrod,

I have no problem talking about it. 73 years of being single has evolved me into the willingness of talking about anything...and with anyone... but being that most of you on GC are married how singles need to compensate... if I can say it that way... is a bit awkward.




Offline DaveW

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Re: Another question in the Big "M" debate
« Reply #49 on: Mon Nov 02, 2020 - 07:15:03 »
It has been a problem for women as well as men, although most women shy away from ever admitting it is a problem for them.
IMO the only "problem" is the extreme anti-sex attitude of the early church fathers which has carried down thru the last 1800 years in a variety of forms and ideas.

But as to why women specifically?  The ancient Greek physician Hippocrates wrote circa 400 bc that women have no sexual feelings or drive.  The church believed him over the plain understanding of the OT scriptures, especially Proverbs and the Song of Solomon which talk a LOT about women's desires. (maybe with all those wives Solomon learned a thing or 2 about female sexuality??)
Quote
I never hear anyone bring up one verse that seems to support your views Dave...
1 Cor 13:10
Actually, in more sex-positive venues like TheMarriageBed and MarriageHeat, that verse is held out as supporting "M;"  especially for singles.
Quote
I have always heard discussions of how it is not forbidden in the bible but along the lines of sexual immorality, which covers anything outside of the marriage bed or by agreement between husband and wife still make it a no no.
And doing that is EXACTLY what our Lord frequently rebuked the Pharisees for: extending the biblical command using human wisdom.

Matthew 15:9
‘But in vain do they worship Me, Teaching as doctrines the precepts of men.’”

Indeed, the Law of Moses warned them against just such a thing:

Deuteronomy 4:2
You shall not add to the word which I am commanding you, nor take away from it, that you may keep the commandments of the Lord your God which I command you.

Extending the definition of "sexual immorality" to include masturbation, when no biblical example shows that, is adding to the command. 
Quote
And I can promise,and I am sure most other singles will too, that the way of escape is not through prayer.
Of course not.  It is asking God to change the way He designed you.  It is quarreling with Him who made you JUST the way he wanted you to be.

Isaiah 45:9
“Woe to the one who quarrels with his Maker— An earthenware vessel among the vessels of earth! Will the clay say to the potter, ‘What are you doing?’ Or the thing you are making say, ‘He has no hands’?

THAT is why God does not answer the prayer to take away someone's sex drive. He designed it to be enjoyed. He gave it specific and important functions in the working of our bodies. (even if you are not married)
Quote
I have no problem talking about it. 73 years of being single has evolved me into the willingness of talking about anything...and with anyone... but being that most of you on GC are married how singles need to compensate... if I can say it that way... is a bit awkward.
Yes, our culture makes talking about sex awkward in any situation by almost anyone.  I applaud your bravery.
« Last Edit: Mon Nov 02, 2020 - 07:21:56 by DaveW »

Offline DaveW

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Re: Another question in the Big "M" debate
« Reply #50 on: Mon Nov 02, 2020 - 08:36:21 »
Quote
Quote
I have no problem talking about it. 73 years of being single has evolved me into the willingness of talking about anything...and with anyone... but being that most of you on GC are married how singles need to compensate... if I can say it that way... is a bit awkward.
Yes, our culture makes talking about sex awkward in any situation by almost anyone.  I applaud your bravery.
It is important for you and others to speak up.  Not just for yourselves but for those who are in their teens and 20s now. Many struggle in silence.
And like you said, little is posted or written for young ladies struggling with this issue.  My heart goes out to each and every one of them.

Offline DaveW

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Re: Another question in the Big "M" debate
« Reply #51 on: Mon Feb 15, 2021 - 09:59:39 »
It has been a problem for women as well as men, although most women shy away from ever admitting it is a problem for them.

Embarrassment, guilt and shame spring to mind as all the reasons why anyone would try to control things when certain cycles ... if I might call them that... cause a need for a lot of cold showers or endless rounds on the treadmill....that only ever seem to delay the inevitable, and are totally impractical at 2AM.

And I can promise,and I am sure most other singles will too, that the way of escape is not through prayer. ::blushing::

I have no problem talking about it. 73 years of being single has evolved me into the willingness of talking about anything...and with anyone... but being that most of you on GC are married how singles need to compensate... if I can say it that way... is a bit awkward.
Rella - I came across this meme and it broke my heart since it sums up so well the tragic results of the church teaching against masturbating and how it affects hormonal teens that have to wait a decade or 2 to "legitimately" get relief. 

the caption says:


When you're religious so you try to stop masturbating
but every day you get more sexually frustrated and lonely,
so eventually you skip church to masturbate.



And yes I know you have been waiting for that for 6 decades .....
« Last Edit: Mon Feb 15, 2021 - 10:23:00 by DaveW »

Offline DaveW

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Re: Another question in the Big "M" debate
« Reply #52 on: Mon Feb 15, 2021 - 10:14:14 »
Quote from: Rella
I have always heard discussions of how it is not forbidden in the bible but along the lines of sexual immorality, which covers anything outside of the marriage bed or by agreement between husband and wife still make it a no no.

I never hear anyone bring up one verse that seems to support your views Dave...  1 Cor 13:10

No temptation has overtaken you except such as is common to man; but God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will also make the way of escape, that you may be able to bear it.
That is pretty much "God made a mistake and left this out; so we have to find a way to bring it back in. "

That is one of the things our Lord blasted the Pharisees for doing - adding to the commands of God.

The problem with that verse (the reason so many do not take it that way) is it runs counter to their trying to add to the commands. 

I took a year's worth of classes on Judaism in a conservative synagogue back in the 1990s.  My wife and I both grew up in congregational settings related to the Wesleyan Holiness movement of the late 1800s, early 1900s.  Me Church of Nazarene, Pentecostal Holiness; and her Assembly of God. So we both had this background of what ever was personally pleasurable was at least questionable if not outright sinful.

But we heard a very different story of classic Judaism. (remember our Lord and all the apostles were Jews from the late 2nd temple period.   One of the things we heard (and I recently found the reference for) was the idea that God created pleasures for us to enjoy; and to deny ourselves those pleasures (assuming they are not forbidden) is considered sinful.  So imagine my surprise and delight when i found this in a commentary on Genesis a few months ago:


A man will have to give an account on the judgement day for every good and permissible thing which he might have enjoyed and did not.

Jerusalem Talmud Kiddushin 4:12


IF masturbating is NOT forbidden, then it is actually permissible.  And God expects us to enjoy it.

I am thinking of adding that to my siggy.
« Last Edit: Mon Feb 15, 2021 - 10:24:32 by DaveW »

Offline Rella

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Re: Another question in the Big "M" debate
« Reply #53 on: Thu Feb 25, 2021 - 11:53:46 »
I don't guess many people will want to talk about it. 

It's embarrassing, because its considered stigmatic in our culture

Jarrod

Quote
Posted by: DaveW
« on: Mon Feb 15, 2021 - 10:14:14 »

IF masturbating is NOT forbidden, then it is actually permissible.  And God expects us to enjoy it.

Let me comment on this embarrassing enjoyable thing.

Yes, the desire and the urge is something that develops at puberty... and it generally will last well into old age. At least into mid 70s .

Is this embarrassing to say?  Not really, but few will admit it simply because they believe that to admit means you are not getting any and that, for most... even a lot of Christians is an embarrassing admission.

But guilt is always there.

Guilt simply because mostly things get stirred up by outside influences of a word heard, a picture seen, and even a provocative
advertisement.

We are not supposed to think about other things other then our legal spouse at such times.

When you do not have one of those then it is  troublesome, at minimum , to have often unexpected things happen.

Offline DaveW

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Re: Another question in the Big "M" debate
« Reply #54 on: Thu Feb 25, 2021 - 13:58:38 »
And I would say it is a false guilt.  God does not condemn, but the devil does. And he is nothing but a liar. 

In the Song of Solomon chapter 5 from verse 6 on onward, after Shulamite masturbates (verse 2-5)  she goes out to find her lover but instead is confronted with the city guards who beat her. 

IMO this is a poetic description of those "guilt" feelings that follow doing the deed.  It is based on being alone since sexual activity is designed to join 2 people together.  By one's self there is no one there which can leave a feeling of emptiness, so it gets incorrectly interpreted as guilt.

Offline Rella

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Re: Another question in the Big "M" debate
« Reply #55 on: Thu Feb 25, 2021 - 17:37:37 »
And I would say it is a false guilt.  God does not condemn, but the devil does. And he is nothing but a liar. 

In the Song of Solomon chapter 5 from verse 6 on onward, after Shulamite masturbates (verse 2-5)  she goes out to find her lover but instead is confronted with the city guards who beat her. 

IMO this is a poetic description of those "guilt" feelings that follow doing the deed.  It is based on being alone since sexual activity is designed to join 2 people together.  By one's self there is no one there which can leave a feeling of emptiness, so it gets incorrectly interpreted as guilt.

Yes it is designed for 2 people. And perfectly designed for a man and a woman.

Lacking that does not stop things from getting churned up from time to time, and when that happens more often or not leaves one to compensate.

You say   "can leave a feeling of emptiness"... can but not necessarily. And I might say that likely not if one has only ever had themselves for company.

There have been  discussions within these forums of how it is acceptable between married people IF the spouse is in agreement.  But that does not give permission for either spouse to venture into area alone simply because of...

And beyond that I simply do not know how to G rate a reply to the guilt end, because there are just things that will set things in motion and I best just shut up right now and close by saying there ARE things to feel guilty about because
certain things are unavoidable and often ,too much so, one might develop those passing thoughts of actually wanting to
have that exposure... even knowing that control of thoughts in scratching that itch will meet with every ones approval...kind of.

Offline RB

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Re: Another question in the Big "M" debate
« Reply #56 on: Fri Feb 26, 2021 - 03:33:47 »
My opinion of this is:
Quote
1st Corinthians 7:25-28~"Now concerning virgins I have no commandment of the Lord: yet I give my judgment, as one that hath obtained mercy of the Lord to be faithful. I suppose therefore that this is good for the present distress, I say, that it is good for a man so to be. Art thou bound unto a wife? seek not to be loosed. Art thou loosed from a wife? seek not a wife. But and if thou marry, thou hast not sinned; and if a virgin marry, she hath not sinned. Nevertheless such shall have trouble in the flesh: but I spare you.
There is not much spoken of virgins BEFORE they marry, and the trouble they may go through in the flesh~YET God spare such people of their problems in the flesh as long as they seek to be holy in their spirit while having trouble in the flesh.

God created us to be sexual creatures overall considered. Every man and woman are different~ no two are the same. My personal opinion is that the troubles that virgins go through should be between them and God and the way they manage their "troubles" should be BETWEEN THEM AND GOD and any close friend that they may want to confine in that may be going through the same trouble. Such troubles truly should be kept PRIVATE and not open forum discussion.

For myself and from a young age, I KNEW that marriage was the ONLY way for me and never considered any other way. I was thinking very strongly toward females at a young age around twelve or so~so it was clear to me and easy for me to figure this out. Women are a wonderful gift from God~especially so, a wise, good, and beautiful woman. 
« Last Edit: Fri Feb 26, 2021 - 03:37:49 by RB »

Offline DaveW

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Re: Another question in the Big "M" debate
« Reply #57 on: Fri Feb 26, 2021 - 05:54:36 »
There have been  discussions within these forums of how it is acceptable between married people IF the spouse is in agreement.  But that does not give permission for either spouse to venture into area alone simply because of...
Because of a lack? Paul says this about that:

1 Corinthians 7
3 The husband must fulfill his duty to his wife, and likewise also the wife to her husband.


 Scripture never directly addresses whether a married person can or cannot masturbate without direction from the spouse.  But it DOES address the permission issue here:

4 The wife does not have authority over her own body, but the husband does; and likewise also the husband does not have authority over his own body, but the wife does.

So the spouse can tell you it is ok to do that, OR can say you absolutely CANNOT do that.  It is up to them.  But Paul says it is NOT ok to leave your spouse wanting:

5 Stop depriving one another, except by agreement for a time, so that you may devote yourselves to prayer, and come together again so that Satan will not tempt you because of your lack of self-control.

How long is that "time?"  In the Greek text it implies a short time.  In the rabbinic writings it was said that rabbis Shammai and Hillel disagreed on this very point.  (Hillel was the grandfather of Gamaliel, Paul's teacher) Hillel said 1 week and Shammai said 2 weeks, MAXIMUM.

Offline DaveW

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Re: Another question in the Big "M" debate
« Reply #58 on: Fri Feb 26, 2021 - 06:19:32 »
And beyond that I simply do not know how to G rate a reply to the guilt end, because there are just things that will set things in motion and I best just shut up right now and close by saying there ARE things to feel guilty about because  certain things are unavoidable and often ,too much so, one might develop those passing thoughts of actually wanting to have that exposure... even knowing that control of thoughts in scratching that itch will meet with every ones approval...kind of.
You are referring to the "lust" issue here:

Matthew 5:28
but I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart.


The word "lust" there is epithumeo, which is a very strong desire, either good or bad.  It is used here as well:

Luke 22:15
And He said to them, “I have earnestly desired to eat this Passover with you before I suffer;"


If we used the word Lust in this verse it would read:

... with lust i have lusted to eat this Passover ...

But more importantly, epithumeo is used in the Septuagint to translate "Covet."  It is translated "covet" in Paul's letters.  And given the context of this part of the Sermon on the mount, given to the 10 commandments and the rabbinic extensions, it is clear that Covet is what is meant here.

Let us look at the words of our Lord, and the words of the Father in the Big 10:

Matthew 5:28
but I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

Exodus 20:17
You shall not covet your neighbor’s house; you shall not covet your neighbor’s wife or his male servant or his female servant or his ox or his donkey or anything that belongs to your neighbor.


To covet is to want to take something away that belongs to someone else.  In the case of the house, the servants, or livestock, it is theft in the heart.  For the wife it is adultery in the heart.

IMO it is NOT just having some image or thought that gets you worked up.  That does NOT rise to the level of "lust." 

If you are hungry and see a person eating your favorite meal, it makes you hungrier.  Smelling some wonderful stew or fresh baked bread will set your mouth watering even if you are NOT hungry. 

IT is not coveting/lust until you are thinking of a way to take it away from them. 

Smelling that baking bread sets things in motion.  Go and eating what you DO have to satisfy that is NOT lust.  It is no different than what you said:
Quote
certain things are unavoidable and often ,too much so, one might develop those passing thoughts of actually wanting to have that exposure...
Of course you want that bread.  It is how God made you. 
It is NOT lust. 

Offline Rella

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Re: Another question in the Big "M" debate
« Reply #59 on: Fri Feb 26, 2021 - 16:28:43 »
Because of a lack? Paul says this about that:

1 Corinthians 7
3 The husband must fulfill his duty to his wife, and likewise also the wife to her husband.


 Scripture never directly addresses whether a married person can or cannot masturbate without direction from the spouse.  But it DOES address the permission issue here:

4 The wife does not have authority over her own body, but the husband does; and likewise also the husband does not have authority over his own body, but the wife does.

So the spouse can tell you it is ok to do that, OR can say you absolutely CANNOT do that.  It is up to them.  But Paul says it is NOT ok to leave your spouse wanting:

5 Stop depriving one another, except by agreement for a time, so that you may devote yourselves to prayer, and come together again so that Satan will not tempt you because of your lack of self-control.

How long is that "time?"  In the Greek text it implies a short time.  In the rabbinic writings it was said that rabbis Shammai and Hillel disagreed on this very point.  (Hillel was the grandfather of Gamaliel, Paul's teacher) Hillel said 1 week and Shammai said 2 weeks, MAXIMUM.

Not necessarily a lack but inability due to health issues.

Enough said on this.

Offline Rella

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Re: Another question in the Big "M" debate
« Reply #60 on: Fri Feb 26, 2021 - 16:32:01 »
You are referring to the "lust" issue here:

Matthew 5:28
but I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart.


The word "lust" there is epithumeo, which is a very strong desire, either good or bad.  It is used here as well:

Luke 22:15
And He said to them, “I have earnestly desired to eat this Passover with you before I suffer;"


If we used the word Lust in this verse it would read:

... with lust i have lusted to eat this Passover ...

But more importantly, epithumeo is used in the Septuagint to translate "Covet."  It is translated "covet" in Paul's letters.  And given the context of this part of the Sermon on the mount, given to the 10 commandments and the rabbinic extensions, it is clear that Covet is what is meant here.

Let us look at the words of our Lord, and the words of the Father in the Big 10:

Matthew 5:28
but I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

Exodus 20:17
You shall not covet your neighbor’s house; you shall not covet your neighbor’s wife or his male servant or his female servant or his ox or his donkey or anything that belongs to your neighbor.


To covet is to want to take something away that belongs to someone else.  In the case of the house, the servants, or livestock, it is theft in the heart.  For the wife it is adultery in the heart.

IMO it is NOT just having some image or thought that gets you worked up.  That does NOT rise to the level of "lust." 

If you are hungry and see a person eating your favorite meal, it makes you hungrier.  Smelling some wonderful stew or fresh baked bread will set your mouth watering even if you are NOT hungry. 

IT is not coveting/lust until you are thinking of a way to take it away from them. 

Smelling that baking bread sets things in motion.  Go and eating what you DO have to satisfy that is NOT lust.  It is no different than what you said:Of course you want that bread.  It is how God made you. 
It is NOT lust.

God created the human being to respond to certain things.

But there are things that should be off limits. I will mention pornography for one. But you surly know what that can and does do?

Whatever it is that causes the lust to light a fire.... most likely it is inappropriate.... ergo, guilt ensues not for the quenching of the fire but the thing that causes.

Now, this is enough on this ... in an open forum.

I agree with RB.