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Each person is unique, created by God and not a copy or a clone of how people may try to make all people be; so I find it interesting that there are people who make statements that they claim go for all people, even though they are not God who knows the real truth about each one.

How many people have *you* personally gotten to know so you know for sure what is true about these people

But, even so, I would say that if a couple is getting into what is wrong, the spirit of this abuse can make them unable to love by sharing honestly with their parents, because they have gotten corrupted into their sneaky stuff, then can be like Adam and Eve hiding in the garden from God. But others can be convicted to go and share with their parents, since the Holy Spirit can give them a conscience. So, each couple's relating is unique.

And ones marry the ones they do, showing how well they really are capable of getting to know even just one person (never mind "all men" or "all women" or "all teenies").

God's love makes it work well and even easily. So, if being in "love" has you tempted and struggling, I'd say God's love is almighty with self-control of the Holy Spirit almighty, with "rest for your souls." (in Matthew 11:29)

So, when I am struggling, I am confessing this to be failure proving I have not been  relating in God's love like I should and need to; and trust God to have me doing better so I can be in real loving with a lady I appreciate, and attentive to doing her good so I'm not getting distracted with superficial stuff. So, I need to do better, yes, but I find I am growing to do better. One thing that helps me is to keep busy with loving others who are Christians, so I am not too involved with one person; loving different people in God's all-loving love has me in His love's beauty and perfect sweet satisfaction better than any superficially stimulated stuff, and with self control in His own pleasure. Notice how Paul said he took "pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in needs, in persecutions, in distresses, for Christ's sake," in 2 corinthians 12:10; so God's love is not limited to having pleasure only in isolated situations arranged so we can make ourselves feel good. So, whose love are we in "We can fall or we can grow."

But if we are seeking pleasure, we are using someone and not really loving that person, but loving the pleasure, "maybe". But, like I say, I do not personally know each person. Paul says, "I will not be brought under the power of any," in 1 Corinthians 6:12; so . . . I would say that in God's love we can't be brought under the power and control of what is inferior.

Those are good issues. I was Catholic, and it was like in our school age instruction classes we wanted to know what we could do, how far we could go, what we could get away with. It was kind of legalistic, not really about pleasing God.

And, actually, I would not be legalistic to say sex must be only in order to produce kids. But I think we can go after it more than is really good for us. We can confuse what is true intimacy with being physically intimate; so I would say it is good to find out how intimacy really is before we get into physical pleasure and sexual intimacy.

The Bible doesn't say to have sex only in order to have children. And we have that God "gives us richly all things to enjoy." (in 1 Timothy 6:17)

"Let the husband render to his wife the affection due her, and likewise also the wife to her husband. The wife does not have authority over her own body, but the husband does. And likewise the husband does not have authority over his own body, but the wife does." (1 Corinthians 7:3-4)

Giving "affection" that is due does not necessarily mean sexual affection activities. But having power over each other's bodies can mean each one should go along with the other's sexual pleasure desires, we might understand, here.

But I am thinking of how ones can be so into their own *independence* so that they do not allow one another to do caring affectionate things for them (because they can "do it, themselves", "don't need any help", etc.). And so, Paul could really mean we should welcome our wives and husbands to do the loving things they desire to do for us and with us, showing affection, for example, by helping with what we could do by ourselves, doing things together just so we can be sharing So, how love would mean this scripture could be different than what one with sex on the brain would interpret it to mean

In the famous words of our past President Bill Clinton I reckon it is what you determine is sexual; sometimes it can be an excuse.

I see you pointed out that others, rather that acmcetc, brought up yetis and other animals.  I suspect your non-interest in becoming involved is because of jealousy that horses weren't invited.

Sex outside of a martial relationship between a man and woman is sin. Period.

Genesis 29:11  And Jacob kissed Rachel. This was neither sexual nor sin. If you need more than this you seem to then to have a fetish concerning talking about the subject.

Matthew 5:27  Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:

Matthew 5:28  But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

If snogging or making out leads you to lust, it is sin.

acmcccxlviii, since your questions have been answered, I am locking this thread.  If another mod chooses to unlock it, please feel free.