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Author Topic: L.A. Clippers Owner's Scandal  (Read 1337 times)

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Offline notreligus

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L.A. Clippers Owner's Scandal
« on: Wed Apr 30, 2014 - 15:00:55 »
This is not a real important topic, per se', but it has caught my attention to some degree.

I've heard some of the audio recording.   No, it does not make the Clippers owner, Donald Sterling, sound like the most moral man I've ever heard speak, but it seems to me that many of the questions asked of him were very leading.

One of the early critics of Donald Sterling was Magic Johnson.   It is confirmed that he wants to be one of the new owners of the franchise.   Has it occurred to anyone that maybe this woman was used to set-up Donald Sterling and get him to say something unflattering which would paint him into a corner and consequently put his ownership of this team in jeopardy?   Just a thought. 

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L.A. Clippers Owner's Scandal
« on: Wed Apr 30, 2014 - 15:00:55 »

Offline Victor08

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Re: L.A. Clippers Owner's Scandal
« Reply #1 on: Wed Apr 30, 2014 - 15:51:47 »
One of the early critics of Donald Sterling was Magic Johnson.   It is confirmed that he wants to be one of the new owners of the franchise.   Has it occurred to anyone that maybe this woman was used to set-up Donald Sterling and get him to say something unflattering which would paint him into a corner and consequently put his ownership of this team in jeopardy?   Just a thought. 

http://www.thewire.com/politics/2014/04/rush-limbaugh-has-a-fun-new-conspiracy-theory-about-donald-sterling/361407/

In a segment that even Rush Limbaugh admitted would probably get picked up by an army of his critics (hi!), the conservative radio host pretty much ran with a caller's theory today that Clippers owner Donald Sterling was set up. That theory makes one big assumption: that Magic Johnson, the subject of Sterling's latest recorded racist rant, orchestrated the whole controversy in order to open up an opportunity to buy the Clippers for a lower price. Sterling was suspended for life from the NBA today, and the league will try to force him to sell his team.

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Re: L.A. Clippers Owner's Scandal
« Reply #1 on: Wed Apr 30, 2014 - 15:51:47 »

Offline DaveW

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Re: L.A. Clippers Owner's Scandal
« Reply #2 on: Mon May 12, 2014 - 12:17:42 »
Yet another attack on our US freedoms and the Bill of Rights. 

No one is supposed to be deprived of property except by due process of law, and a person's right to think and express his thoughts is to not be impinged.

First Amendment to the United States Constitution

    Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances

Fourth Amendment to the United States Constitution

    The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.


While I find Sterling's comments appalling; he has been tried in no court of law and the outcry against him in the media is bypassing these constitutional protections.

I find any "conspiracy theories" to be secondary to these concerns.

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Re: L.A. Clippers Owner's Scandal
« Reply #3 on: Mon May 12, 2014 - 14:06:15 »
Your concerns about infringement of rights are basically unfounded, Dave.  The government hasn't done jack squat in this situation.  They aren't infringing anyone's rights.  They (rightfully) know that there would be no case to make here. 

Making racist comments isn't a crime, per se.  Unless you are, for instance, inciting a riot with your comments, then being a bigot isn't a crime.  Certainly, in this case, making them in his own living room to an audience of 1 would not be a crime.  Likewise, the recording is illegally obtained and would be inadmissable in a court of law, anyway.

The people persecuting Sterling are not governmental, they are simply his own business contacts and community.  In short, they are people who have contracts with him, whether as employees, or as part of a legal, collectively bargained monopoly (the ownership and management of the league).

Now, if someone goes making stupid comments that turn themself into a marketing pariah, people who do business with them certainly are going to to distance themselves.  They are now "bad for business."

That's what we're seeing.  The ownership of the NBA has a collectively bargained contract among themselves, which allows for very limited ability to revoke the franchise of an owner.  It's the sort of thing you write into any contract to protect yourself from one person going looney tunes.

Frankly, I think they would be hard-pressed to actually force him out according to the terms of that agreement, since there is no actual crime committed.  However, the financial ramifications of a protracted legal battle will almost certainly force a settlement that involves someone else being named owner.

The question at this point is whether Sterling will be able to satisfy enough people in a side-step move, by selling to his wife (ex-wife?), rather than selling to an outside group.

Jarrod

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Re: L.A. Clippers Owner's Scandal
« Reply #3 on: Mon May 12, 2014 - 14:06:15 »

Offline DaveW

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Re: L.A. Clippers Owner's Scandal
« Reply #4 on: Tue May 13, 2014 - 06:08:48 »
Your concerns about infringement of rights are basically unfounded, Dave. 
Not really.
Quote
The government hasn't done jack squat in this situation.  They aren't infringing anyone's rights.  They (rightfully) know that there would be no case to make here. 

I understand that. I am not talking about the government.  I am talking about the NBA owners association.  There have been plenty of court cases where the basic freedoms of the bill of rights have been extended beyond just the Federal Government. Something as basic as freedom of speech and not being deprived of property without due process of law fall into that category.

Every US citizen (based on the first amendment) should absolutely uphold this quote:

I do not agree with what you have to say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it.  attributed to Voltaire

Is the NBA owners association upholding that position?  No.

And the owners association being able to force him to sell an otherwise economically viable corporation is a usurpation of power that should be reserved to the government; and then only by due process of law.

Quote
Now, if someone goes making stupid comments that turn themselves into a marketing pariah, people who do business with them certainly are going to to distance themselves.  They are now "bad for business."

If that was the case then let the market place make the corporation economically unviable.   But for some association to decide that is uncaptitalistic.

Look - As an american I should be able to say anything I want to anywhere I want to.  That is freedom of speech.  For instance - I should be able to scream anti-white epithets in a KKK or neo-nazi area; or anti black epithets in a minority neighborhood with impunity.  But that is not the world we live in because people in this country do not REALLY believe in freedom of speech.  And the statements of the NBA owners association prove that.
« Last Edit: Tue May 13, 2014 - 06:18:38 by DaveW »

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Re: L.A. Clippers Owner's Scandal
« Reply #4 on: Tue May 13, 2014 - 06:08:48 »



Offline notreligus

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Re: L.A. Clippers Owner's Scandal
« Reply #5 on: Tue May 13, 2014 - 12:01:14 »
One of the early critics of Donald Sterling was Magic Johnson.   It is confirmed that he wants to be one of the new owners of the franchise.   Has it occurred to anyone that maybe this woman was used to set-up Donald Sterling and get him to say something unflattering which would paint him into a corner and consequently put his ownership of this team in jeopardy?   Just a thought. 

http://www.thewire.com/politics/2014/04/rush-limbaugh-has-a-fun-new-conspiracy-theory-about-donald-sterling/361407/

In a segment that even Rush Limbaugh admitted would probably get picked up by an army of his critics (hi!), the conservative radio host pretty much ran with a caller's theory today that Clippers owner Donald Sterling was set up. That theory makes one big assumption: that Magic Johnson, the subject of Sterling's latest recorded racist rant, orchestrated the whole controversy in order to open up an opportunity to buy the Clippers for a lower price. Sterling was suspended for life from the NBA today, and the league will try to force him to sell his team.


I didn't say anything about a conspiracy theory.   I still think that Magic Johnson, not exactly a model citizen himself, could have some involvement with facilitating the Sterling recordings, which were made in Sterling's home, and with helping them "get to market."   After last evening's reports I would say that Sterling does not need much help in sticking his foot in his mouth and would be better off to just keep his mouth closed.  But, for some reason, Sterling has a focus on Johnson and I think he has known for a long time that Johnson wants to buy that team. 

These days folk act like slang words such as Polaks, Canucks, Waps, Japs, A-rabs, Gooks, Krauts, etc. are just evil and anyone who uses them should be ostracized.   I ran around with a bunch of Jewish delinquents as I grew up and they called me a "Crossback" with cross denoting the cross of Christ.   I didn't think much of it.    Their parents talked of Goys and my best friend got engaged to a Gentile girl and his parents called her a Shiksa.   People of different nationalities in this country would jab each other because of one being Polish or one being an Italian, for example.   It might seem crude to this generation who think it's OK to use F-Bombs from the pulpit but get all excited if someone says Negro instead of African-American.   Negro is no different than Asian as far as a general term, but some get all excited.   If you've ever walked through a mall in the United States unless you are deaf you've heard African-Americans call each other Ni____s.   The women call each other H_'s.   This is reality.   But now, this 80 year-old Jewish man, who grew up in another time and place is not politically correct, is being raked over the hot coals.   I've heard older Jewish people speak like this a thousand times.   It's not because they are Jewish, but they are used to calling others Goys and Shiksas and Negroes. And, they don't mean much by it.  I also recall when Jewish folk were leading the Civil Rights marches in my city and in every other large city in America.   It's called freedom of speech and expression, and while people are being persecuted and murdered all over the world for their culture or beliefs, we Americans get all excited over Donald Sterling being a racist and hold up Magic Johnson as a great man.   

Offline geneh_33

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Re: L.A. Clippers Owner's Scandal
« Reply #6 on: Tue May 13, 2014 - 12:23:34 »
Freedom of speech goes both ways. Remember that.

We can worship God freely but others can worship Satan freely, too.

Racism is wrong but there is no law against speaking as a racist. As much as I hate what I heard on that tape, this man has the right to say what he thinks as long as he does not violate any laws in saying it.

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Re: L.A. Clippers Owner's Scandal
« Reply #7 on: Thu May 15, 2014 - 01:49:58 »
Your concerns about infringement of rights are basically unfounded, Dave. 
Not really.
Quote
The government hasn't done jack squat in this situation.  They aren't infringing anyone's rights.  They (rightfully) know that there would be no case to make here. 

I understand that. I am not talking about the government.  I am talking about the NBA owners association.  There have been plenty of court cases where the basic freedoms of the bill of rights have been extended beyond just the Federal Government. Something as basic as freedom of speech and not being deprived of property without due process of law fall into that category.

Every US citizen (based on the first amendment) should absolutely uphold this quote:

I do not agree with what you have to say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it.  attributed to Voltaire

Is the NBA owners association upholding that position?  No.

And the owners association being able to force him to sell an otherwise economically viable corporation is a usurpation of power that should be reserved to the government; and then only by due process of law.

Quote
Now, if someone goes making stupid comments that turn themselves into a marketing pariah, people who do business with them certainly are going to to distance themselves.  They are now "bad for business."

If that was the case then let the market place make the corporation economically unviable.   But for some association to decide that is uncaptitalistic.

Look - As an american I should be able to say anything I want to anywhere I want to.  That is freedom of speech.  For instance - I should be able to scream anti-white epithets in a KKK or neo-nazi area; or anti black epithets in a minority neighborhood with impunity.  But that is not the world we live in because people in this country do not REALLY believe in freedom of speech.  And the statements of the NBA owners association prove that.
This is silly to me.  Nobody has infringed Donald Sterling's right to free speech.  He was free to say it.  He just has to live with the natural consequences (not artificially contrived consequences sanctioned by the government, mind you, but just the fallout of what he said from his peers reactions to it).

And the Bill of Rights is to protect us from our own government, not from everyone everywhere.  That's why it's "Congress shall make no law..."

Offline DaveW

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Re: L.A. Clippers Owner's Scandal
« Reply #8 on: Thu May 15, 2014 - 05:21:43 »
Quote
And the Bill of Rights is to protect us from our own government, not from everyone everywhere.  That's why it's "Congress shall make no law..."

But now we have "associations" that are not really government but act as if they were government.  In this case it is the NBA owners association. In other cases it may be home or condo owners associations. 

They should have the same restrictions that government has and not be able to deprive people of property without due process.

Offline OldDad

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Re: L.A. Clippers Owner's Scandal
« Reply #9 on: Thu May 15, 2014 - 08:23:57 »
I do not know the details of the owner's agreement with the NBA - the one they have to agree to and sign when they become an owner - but I am sure there are responsibilities and prohibitions on both parties to the agreement.

For example, there is most certainly a clause that allows the league to force an owner to sell for cause. The NBA has determined that a vulgar racist rant by an owner in a league where the majority of "employees" are African Americans is "cause."

Sterling's property is not being taken from him - he will be allowed to sell it, presumably to the highest bidder. His extended family may well end up  holding on to at least a portion of the team.

Sterling voluntarily signed an agreement that I'm positive requires him to "represent and uphold the best interests of the Association" or risk consequences.

What's happening to him now are the consequences of violating that agreement.

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Re: L.A. Clippers Owner's Scandal
« Reply #10 on: Thu May 15, 2014 - 08:44:30 »
Quote
And the Bill of Rights is to protect us from our own government, not from everyone everywhere.  That's why it's "Congress shall make no law..."

But now we have "associations" that are not really government but act as if they were government.  In this case it is the NBA owners association. In other cases it may be home or condo owners associations. 

They should have the same restrictions that government has and not be able to deprive people of property without due process.
Well, he signed a legal contract with them that gives them the right to take certain property from him under certain circumstances.  So, legally, that's on the up and up.  You have the right, but if you waive it, or put yourself under a certain authority... you're allowed to do that, too.

The HOA thing is a bit more gray and less black and white.

Jarrod

Offline DaveW

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Re: L.A. Clippers Owner's Scandal
« Reply #11 on: Thu May 15, 2014 - 09:30:16 »
Not really.  If you do not want to spend hours on the commute each day you usually HAVE to sign onto an HOA or COA.  If you are renting then you have those regulations as well (but that is more to be expected since you are NOT an owner)

IT is exactly the same with the pro sports associations.  If I win several hundred million $$ in the lotto next week I cannot just go out and buy a team or a part of a team.  I have to be vetted by the association and agree to their rules.  Rules that have never been thru the process of representative legislation.  And that seems to me to be a violation of free trade.

Offline Charming Anarchist

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Re: L.A. Clippers Owner's Scandal
« Reply #12 on: Thu May 15, 2014 - 10:53:24 »
I have a simple way of looking at this. 
God told us not to commit adultery.   That is not only a command but it is also practical advice. 

---- 

I also have a callous way of looking at this. 
Only a fool would trust an adulterer or an adulteress. 

Offline DaveW

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Re: L.A. Clippers Owner's Scandal
« Reply #13 on: Thu May 15, 2014 - 11:04:00 »
I have a simple way of looking at this. 
God told us not to commit adultery.   That is not only a command but it is also practical advice. 
---- 
I also have a callous way of looking at this. 
Only a fool would trust an adulterer or an adulteress.

Who said adultery was involved?  And what if was?  This whole thing hinges on the owner making racist comments.

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Re: L.A. Clippers Owner's Scandal
« Reply #14 on: Thu May 15, 2014 - 15:27:13 »
Not really.  If you do not want to spend hours on the commute each day you usually HAVE to sign onto an HOA or COA.  If you are renting then you have those regulations as well (but that is more to be expected since you are NOT an owner)

IT is exactly the same with the pro sports associations.  If I win several hundred million $$ in the lotto next week I cannot just go out and buy a team or a part of a team.  I have to be vetted by the association and agree to their rules.  Rules that have never been thru the process of representative legislation.  And that seems to me to be a violation of free trade.
It's absolutely an abridgement of free enterprise.  It's collusion.  But here's the thing... when employees of a number of businesses form a union together for the purpose of bargaining collectively, then the owners and management of those same businesses are specifically, legally, allowed to collude, for the purpose of bargaining collectively with them.

This whole scenario has much more to do with the players who are unionized than any particular owner.  The process of collectively bargaining never really stops, even when a CBA is reached.  It is the players in particular who want Sterling out as owner.  And, as a collective formed and able to bargain with and against the colluded owners, they can bargain for anything they want, including the ouster of one of the owners from the Association of owners.

And that's what's going on here.  The owner's association (the NBA), is caving to the demands of the player's association (the NBPA) in the bargaining process.  They could stand with Sterling if they wanted to and say, "there is nothing illegal," if they wanted to.  They could say, "go pound salt" or lock the players out if they wanted to.

But, because Sterling has, for the most part, been a complete thorn in the sides of everyone, including his fellow owners, and because, frankly, they want him out as well, they will cave to the player's association.

Now, they can't legally force him to sell, or dictate who he sells to.  But they can exclude him from the association, in which case exactly how much use is the basketball franchise?  Not a lot, since it wouldn't be able to schedule games, or have any kind of worthy competition to play against.  And what players will play for him?  Since the "franchise" would no longer be franchised, it would be outside of the CBA, and contracts negotiated under that CBA would be invalid.

Jarrod

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Re: L.A. Clippers Owner's Scandal
« Reply #15 on: Thu May 15, 2014 - 15:33:34 »
Who said adultery was involved?  And what if was?  This whole thing hinges on the owner making racist comments.
It's kind of neither here nor there, but the Clippers owner has something of a reputation.  Despite being married, he shows up to the basketball games with an array of model-pretty girlfriends on his arm.

From a legal deposition of Sterling taken in 2003:
Quote
A:  Well, I fool around sometimes.  I do.  When a girl seduces me and tells me all these hot stories and dirty things and [edited out due to explicit content].
Q: Sir, the question was, "Is this your handwriting?"

He's a fantastic human being.  Yeah.

Jarrod

Offline DaveW

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Re: L.A. Clippers Owner's Scandal
« Reply #16 on: Fri May 16, 2014 - 08:36:23 »
Quote from: DaveW
Who said adultery was involved?  And what if was?  This whole thing hinges on the owner making racist comments.
It's kind of neither here nor there, but the Clippers owner has something of a reputation.  Despite being married, he shows up to the basketball games with an array of model-pretty girlfriends on his arm.

From a legal deposition of Sterling taken in 2003:
Quote
A:  Well, I fool around sometimes.  I do.  When a girl seduces me and tells me all these hot stories and dirty things and [edited out due to explicit content].
Q: Sir, the question was, "Is this your handwriting?"
He's a fantastic human being.  Yeah.

Was that what CA was talking about?   It seemed he just kinda pulled it out of thin air.....