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Author Topic: "Pagan Christianity"  (Read 723 times)
seekr
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« on: February 24, 2003, 11:31:35 AM »

Nelta, this is great and I am one of those who do not attend and saw the hypocrisy and fakeness of it all. I have also posted some of Frank Viola's \"Rethinking the Wineskin\" on this site in the past. This was an excellent visual. This is what the church needs to hear. Thanks for posting this.

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« on: February 24, 2003, 11:31:35 AM »

 
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janine
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« Reply #1 on: February 26, 2003, 07:16:08 AM »

The problem comes in when people are willing to tear everything up, shredding the hypocritical forms and methods and expediencies that have calcified around us, in order to put in place something they find more in line with Jesus' teaching, apostolic teaching, early 1st century Christian practice, etc.; then the new ways become calcified traditions, just as empty of meaning as the old ways.

If only we can stay in that mode always, that effort to be real...
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« Reply #1 on: February 26, 2003, 07:16:08 AM »

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« Reply #2 on: February 26, 2003, 11:14:43 AM »

I'm moving this up to the top of my reading list.  I was planning to make a bookstore run tomorrow, but since the bookstore I'd planned to run to is two hours north and we have a fresh coating of snow and more on the way, the bookstore will have to wait until next week.

 :(
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« Reply #3 on: February 26, 2003, 06:11:01 PM »

:wave:

Hi J.  What about it was not deep?  BTW I ordered my book about three or four months ago and it hasn't come in yet.

ISTM that anything that can show us where our practices came from should be a big help TO us.  Of Course, much of what we do in the Church of Christ came from Rome.  Such as the Clergy/laity system.

Nelta
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« Reply #4 on: February 21, 2003, 01:56:49 PM »

Listers,

I have looked forward to Frank Viola's new book for several months now.  
Here is the introduction to his latest book, \"PAGAN CHRISTIANITY: The
Origins of Our Modern Church Practices.\" Never have I found a book that
tells us where our traditions practiced today came from, even though I
have looked for one.

There is a  $33 special for the three books he has authored. One of
which is \"Rethinking The Wineskins.\"  Information on the book (s) can be
found at: www.ptmin.org

Any comments?

Nelta

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

INTRODUCTION

HAVE WE REALLY BEEN DOING IT BY THE BOOK?

The unexamined life is not worth living
                                                          -Socrates

\"We do everything by the Word of God! The New Testament is our guide
for
faith and practice! We live . . . and we die . . . by this Book!\"

These were the words that thundered forth from the mouth of Pastor
Farley as
he delivered his Sunday morning sermon. Winchester Spudchecker, a
member of
Pastor Farley's church, had heard them dozens of times before. But
this time
it was different. Dressed in his blue suit, frozen in the back pew
with his
wife, Trudy Spudchecker, Winchester stared off at the ceiling as
Pastor
Farley ranted on about \"doing everything by the sacred Book.\"

One hour before Pastor Farley began his sermon, Winchester had a
fuming
fight with Trudy. This was a common occurrence when Winchester, Trudy,
and
their three daughters, Felicia, Gertrude, and Zanobia, got ready for
church
on Sunday morning.

His mind began replaying the event . . .

\"Truuuddyy! Why aren't the kids ready!? We're always late! Why can't
you
ever get them prepared on time!?\" . . . were the words that hurled
from
Winchester's lips.

Trudy's response was typical. \"If you ever thought to help me this
wouldn't
happen all the time! Why don't you start giving me a hand in this
house!?\"
The argument went back and forth until Winchester turned on the
children:
\"Zanobia Spudchecker! . . . Why can't you respect us enough to get
ready on
time!? . . . Felicia, how many times do I have to tell you to turn off
your
Play Station before 9 A.M.!?\" Often one or more of the three children
would
cry as the bantering was brought to a high-fever pitch.
Wearing their Sunday best, the Spudchecker family drove to church at
breakneck speed. (Winchester hated to be late and had received three
speeding tickets this past year--all liberally given to him on Sunday
mornings!)

As they raced to the church building, the silence in the car was
deafening.
Winchester was steaming. Trudy was sulking. With heads down, the three
Spudchecker daughters were trying to prepare their minds for something
they
hated . . . enduring another boring hour of Sunday School!

As they pulled up to the church parking lot, Winchester and Trudy
gracefully
exited their car seats, sporting large smiles. They held each other
arm-in-arm, greeted their fellow church members, chuckling and putting
on
the pretense that all is well. Felicia, Gertrude, and Zanobia followed
their
parents with chins pointed upward.

These were the fresh, yet painful memories that coursed through
Winchester's
mind that Sunday morning as Pastor Farley continued his sermon.
Brooding in
condemnation, Winchester began to ask himself some searching
questions: \"Why
am I dressed up prim and proper looking like a good Christian when I
acted
like a heathen just an hour ago?\" . . . \"I wonder how many other
families
have had this same pitiful experience this morning? Yet we're all
smelling
nice and looking pretty for God.\"
Such questions had never before entered Winchester's consciousness.

As he peeked over to see Pastor Farley's wife and children sitting
prim and
proper on the front pew, Winchester mused to himself: \"I wonder if
Pastor
Farley screamed at his wife and kids this morning!? Hmmm . . .\"

Winchester's mind continued to race in this direction as he watched
Pastor
Farley pound the pulpit and raise his Bible with his right hand. The
Pastor
continued his fire-brand ranting . . . \"We at First Bible New
Testament
Community Church do everything by this Book! EVERYTHING! This is the
Word of
God, and we cannot stray from it . . . not even one millimeter!\"

As the bellowing words left Pastor Farley's lips, Winchester suddenly
had a
thought he had never before had: \"I don't remember reading anywhere in
the
Bible that Christians are supposed to dress up to go to church. Is
that by
the Book!?\"

This single thought unlocked a torrent of other barbed questions. As
scores
of frozen pew-sitters filled his horizon, Winchester's mind was
flooded with
these questions. Questions that no Christian is supposed to ask.
Questions
like:

\"Is sitting in this uncushioned pew, staring at the back of five rows
of
heads for 45 minutes doing things by the Book? Why do we spend all
this
money to maintain this building when we're only here twice a week for
a few
hours? Why is half the congregation barely awake when Pastor Farley
preaches? Why do my kids hate Sunday School? Why do we go through this
same,
predictable, yawn-inspiring ritual every Sunday morning? Why am I
going to
church when it bores me to tears and does nothing for me spiritually?
Why do
I wear this uncomfortable necktie every Sunday morning when all it
seems to
do is cut off blood circulation to my brain!?\"

Winchester struggled within himself as the questions continued to pour
into
his mind. He felt unclean and sacrilegious to think such things. Yet
something was happening inside of him that compelled him to doubt his
entire
church experience. These thoughts had been lying dormant in
Winchester's
subconscious for years. Today, they surfaced.

Interestingly, the questions that Winchester had that day are
questions that
virtually never enter the conscious thinking of most Christians. Those
creases simply do not appear on our brains. Yet the sober reality is
that
Winchester's eyes had been opened.

As startling as it may sound, most everything that is done in our
modern
churches has no basis in the Bible. As pastors roar from their pulpits
about
being \"Biblical\" and following the \"pure Word of God,\" their words
betray
them. Alarmingly, precious little that is observed today in modern
Christianity maps to anything found in the first-century church.

Questions We Never Think to Ask

Socrates (470-399 B.C.) is considered by some historians to be the
father of
philosophy. Born and raised in Athens, his custom was to go about the
town
relentlessly raising questions and analyzing issues. Socrates believed
that
truth is found by dialoguing extensively about an issue and relentless
questioning it. Socrates boldly questioned the popular views of his
day. He
thought freely on matters that his fellow Athenians felt were closed
for
discussion.

Socrates' habit of pelting people with searching questions and roping
them
into critical dialogues about their accepted customs eventually got
him
killed. His incessant questioning of tightly-held traditions provoked
the
leaders of Athens to charge him with \"corrupting the youth.\" As a
result,
they put Socrates to death. A clear message was sent to his fellow
Athenians: All who question the established customs will meet the same
fate!

Socrates was not the only philosopher to reap severe reprisal for his
nonconformity: Aristotle was exiled, Spinoza was excommunicated, and
Bruno
was burned alive. Not to mention the thousands of Christians who were
tortured and martyred by the institutional church because they dared
to
challenge its teachings.

As Christians, we are taught by our leaders to believe certain ideas
and
behave certain ways. We have a Bible, yes. But we are conditioned to
read it
with the lens handed to us by the Christian tradition to which we
belong. We
are taught to obey our denomination (or movement) and never to
challenge
what it teaches.

(At this moment, all the rebellious hearts are applauding and are
plotting
to wield the above paragraphs to wreak havoc in their churches. If
that is
you, dear rebellious heart, you have missed my point by a considerable
distance. I do not stand with you. My advice: Either leave your church
quietly, refusing to cause division, or be at peace with it. There is
a vast
gulf between rebellion and taking a stand for what is true.)

If the truth be told, we Christians never seem to ask why we do what
we do.
Instead, we blithely carry out our religious traditions, never asking
where
they came from. Most Christians who claim to uphold the integrity of
God's
Word have never sought to see if what they do every Sunday has any
Scriptural backing. How do I know this? Because if they did, it would
lead
them to some very disturbing conclusions. Conclusions that would
compel them
by conscience to forever abandon what they are doing.

Strikingly, contemporary church thought and practice have been
influenced
far more by post-Biblical historical events than by NT (New Testament)
imperatives and examples. Yet most Christians are unconscious of this
influence. Nor are they aware that it has created a slew of cherished,
calcified, humanly-devised traditions.

A Terrifying Invitation


I now invite you to walk with me on an untrodden path. It is a
terrifying
journey where you will be forced to ask questions that probably have
never
entered your conscious thoughts. Tough questions. Nagging questions.
Even
frightening questions. And you will be faced squarely with the
disturbing
answers. Yet those answers will lead you face-to-face with some of the
richest things a Christian can know.

As you read through the following pages, you will be stunned to learn
that
what we Christians do for Sunday morning church did not come from
Jesus
Christ, the apostles, or the Scriptures. Nor did it come from Judaism.
Shockingly, most of what we do for \"church\" was lifted directly out of
pagan
culture in the post-apostolic period. To be more specific, the great
bulk of
our church practices was spawned during three time periods: The early
post-Constantinian era (324 to 600), the Reformation era (16th
century), and
the Revivalist era (18th-19th century).

Each chapter will trace an accepted traditional church practice. It
will
then tell the story of where this practice came from. But more
importantly,
it will explain how this practice stifles the functional Headship of
Jesus
Christ and hampers the functioning of His Body.

If you are unwilling to have your Christianity seriously examined, do
not
read beyond this page. Give this book to Goodwill immediately! Spare
yourself the trouble of having your Christian life turned upside down.

However, if you choose to \"take the red pill\" and be shown \"how deep
the
rabbit hole goes\"  . . . If you want to learn the true story of where
your
Christian practices came from . . . If you are willing to have the
curtain
pulled back on the modern church and have its traditional
presuppositions
fiercely challenged . . . then you will find this work to be
disturbing,
enlightening, and possibly life-changing.
Put another way, if you are a Christian in the institutional church
who
takes the NT seriously, what you are about to read will force you to
have a
crisis of conscience. For you will be confronted by unmovable
historical
fact.

On the other hand, if you happen to be one of those rare breeds who
gathers with other Christians outside the pale of organized
Christianity, you will discover afresh that not only is Scripture on
your side--but history stands with you as well.

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« Reply #5 on: February 25, 2003, 06:30:45 PM »

I have Pagan Christianity: The Origins of Our Modern Church Practices and am thoroughly enjoying reading it.  Right now I am reading on the origin of the \"Order of Worship\" on Sunday mornings.  It's amazing how much of an influence Judaism, Catholicism, and even those from the Reformation have molded the practices we have today.

Other topics in this book include the church building, the sermon, the Lord's Supper, and more.

Seekr, I'm with you regarding what you said about the fakeness and hypocrisy.

Kimmie
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« Reply #5 on: February 25, 2003, 06:30:45 PM »

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seekr
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« Reply #6 on: February 26, 2003, 10:50:38 AM »

Janine, in that book \"Rethinking the Wineskins\" Frank Viola brings this up. He speaks of how our nature tends to go right back into the traditional thinking. God knows our hearts so if we seek Him, He will show us mightily how to change, but it takes breaking down and recognizing the structures within us and willingness to go through the fire to be changed. I know myself, why I do not attend while someone else may be able to--I still would follow too blindly. God keeps where I am to learn about Him and to do His will.

seekr
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david johnson
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« Reply #7 on: February 26, 2003, 04:37:16 PM »

nelta:

dan presented the same post on worshipforum.com, and i repeat my answer to him-
it doesn't sound very deep (in the polite sense of the word) to me.

dj
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« Reply #8 on: February 26, 2003, 07:51:13 PM »

nelta:

i hope you get your book soon.  i hate to wait that long for something i'm interested in!
i'm used to disagreeing with you, but i recall some fun at the old ga site.
to current business-
we have no clergy/laity system.
i think the intro i read sounds shallow.  i doesn't take depth to find a church and take a reverse position on all it says.

dj
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« Reply #8 on: February 26, 2003, 07:51:13 PM »

 
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Nelta
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« Reply #9 on: February 27, 2003, 06:23:28 PM »

Hi J.

Do you really think the Church of Christ doesn't have a Clergy/laity system?  That would be a fine discussion.

Yes, I remember the good times we had on the old GA board.  Things did get out of hand a bit, didn't they?:-)

Nelta :noddingsmiley:
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« Reply #9 on: February 27, 2003, 06:23:28 PM »

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