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Author Topic: 1 Cor. 11:5  (Read 8032 times)

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1 Cor. 11:5
« Reply #140 on: Wed Feb 05, 2003 - 08:59:19 »
Wendy (and others can read too),

You asked, \"Do you think it is permissable for women to serve in any and all church roles (deacon, preacher, elder, song leader, etc.)?

If so, why do you believe that? What scriptures support that view? And how/when did you come to that belief?

If not, why do you believe that? If not all roles, which roles do you think they can/should serve in? What scriptures support your view? How/when did you come to that belief?\"

==========================================

Ok, now for my comments. I think that a woman can be a deacon. If you look at Romans 16:1 we see Phoebe as a deaconess. That is the literal rendering. The New Revised Standard Version (preferred by most scholars I speak with) actually says deaconess. The NIV and KJV use the word servant. Yet in other places the same word is translated deacon(s). The use of servant was probably so as not to offend the more traditional churches.

As far as the other positions, I don't see why not. In 1 Corinthians 14 we read about speaking in tongues, prophesying, and a host of other things. Anna (Luke 2:36) and the daughters of Philip (Acts 21:8-9) were New Testament prophetess'. Verse 34 of 1 Corinthians 14 is most likely Paul dealing with some overly talkative women.

1 Timothy 2:11-12 tells us, \"A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. I do not permit a woman to teach or have authority over a man; she must be silent.\" The word \"silent\" is also used in 1 Timothy 2:2 to refer to Christians. that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. If we were to translate 1 Timothy 2:11 as saying that women may not open their mouths and speak in worship, then we would have to say that 1 Timothy 2:2 is saying that Christians should be mimes. The word quiet means simply that we mind our own business and have an inner peace.

That's about as deep as I care to go. I debated a student at Freed-Hardeman on this subject. It was an assignment for speech class--to choose a subject for debate. He assumed that I would have never read 1 Corinthians 14:34 and 1 Timothy 2:11. He was wrong. I had done all my greek-wording homework and, I must say, blew him out of the water. The student who was assigned to critique us was supposed to simply critique our speech part--that is did we say \"um\" \"ah\" or interrupt, that kind of thing. He started trying to debate me though I was in my seat and the debate was over. Several students approached me afterwards saying that they had never learned more about the subject.

I also think this will be an important issue among Churches of Christ in the next 100 years. Maybe not 50, but 100. :sarcasim:

Lee

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« Reply #140 on: Wed Feb 05, 2003 - 08:59:19 »

Offline Booty

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« Reply #141 on: Wed Feb 05, 2003 - 13:22:29 »
newtome,

I will ask you again to register so pm's might be sent to you in private.

Now as you have decided not to register, I have the distasteful task of addressing you publicly to moderate your tone. The agressive confrontational style is unwarranted.

Despite your denials, you posts have been aggressive and confrontational. Disagree all you wish, but I will clearly state something to you. Here people do have a right to be offended when someone is being offensive.

If you cannot disagree without the agression, perhaps another site would be better suited to you.
If you continue though in your current fashion, you will find your more offensive posts edited with the offensive content removed.
This is the second time you have been noticed and frankly I fail to see what you hope to accheive, GCM is a place to share and grow, but there is little room for childish games.

Relax and enjoy a very invigorating fellowship with fellow Christians who enjoy discussing God's grace.

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« Reply #141 on: Wed Feb 05, 2003 - 13:22:29 »

Offline winky

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« Reply #142 on: Wed Feb 05, 2003 - 16:00:41 »
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Wiley is right about Keener's work, it should be read by any who would want to be informed on this topic. One concern that Keener only mentions in a brief manner is the parallel topics of slavery in the first century and the place of women in the first century. I wish someone with the energy and gifts for good research would spend some time on this.

WHY?

Because if you explore NT texts on slavery, say Eph 6, and even Philemon, you can find plenty of Scripture to justify slavery, in fact many Confederate preachers used these texts to justify continued slavery in the Old South. Yet, by reading of the way God looks at people, not as objects to be owned, but as persons to be redeemed, who all have a \"like precious faith\" as Peter styles it, we understand that the NT writers were only addressing a situation that was the status quo in the Roman and Greek world of that time. Other than a few white supremacists no one contends that the slavery passages apply to persons today.

Well, perhaps the situation for women was similar in the 1st Century as that of slaves. They were in bondage to a culture and a world view that Christians could not overthrow by force. They could simply hope to make things bearable, focus on the nature of eternal worth for all persons and sustain the slaves long enough for the principles they believed in to finally triumph in the larger world. This they did, and after about 300 years the slaves were finally liberated; only to be re-enslaved in other parts of the world, even in America!

Everyone (generally speaking) rejoices to see slaves free and equal in Christ, but many of us are still fighting to keep women under bondage and using Scripture much the same way the Confederate preachers did to support the enslavement of blacks in the Ante-Bellum South.[/quote]

This, to me, is one of the strongest supports for women being able to hold equal positions with men. Especially in light of Gal. 3:28, which shows even more clearly the parallel between the plight of slaves and the plight of women. You notice neither Jesus nor any of his apostles are slaves or Greeks (gentiles) or women. Yet no one uses that fact to say that today Greeks (gentiles) or slaves can't serve as leaders of the church.

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« Reply #142 on: Wed Feb 05, 2003 - 16:00:41 »

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« Reply #143 on: Thu Feb 06, 2003 - 15:05:22 »
i don't have a hard lined position julie.
what is yours?
do we further disrupt and divide and rend the body of Christ for the sake of women's rights?
i'm just saying it isn't worth the division to Christianity to fight about this.
Galatians 3:28 is not free reign for fighting!
divisivness will always remain a sin among Christians, no matter how big you type out one verse in galatians over and over.
i'm not to be concerned with your civil rights, i'm to be concerned with your eternal soul. i don't know you. but i konw if you are seeking to divide Christ's body it is sinful, and your soul is harmed by that. i say that with humility and respect.
just curious, what's your agenda in arguing your position?
are you just fighting for your constitutional \"rights\"?
you don't further the cause of Christ by pulling apart His body from the inside. again i appreciate your passion to serve. so tell me, how do you serve right now?
then tell me, friend, what is the point of this struggle? if the point's not to get more people to heaven... well, it just seems secondary.
again if your agenda is gender rights, that's not the agenda of Christianity.

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« Reply #143 on: Thu Feb 06, 2003 - 15:05:22 »

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« Reply #144 on: Thu Feb 06, 2003 - 19:25:34 »
newtome, Those verses are exactly what I was talking about when I posted earlier.  Do I ignore the rest of the Bible and only use those verses to determine what as woman I should do in God's kingdom?  If that is the case I have already done it all and I never have to open my mouth again.  As long as I am quiet and I have borne children then I am saved.  Is that what you truly believe?
We pick and choose scripture and you know that we do.  The verse right before that is a perfect example. Do you lift holy hands in prayer?  Do women in your church braid their hair or wear gold jewelry?  Or possibly pearls or expensive clothes?  If we followed it all \"by the book\" women would be allowed to pray as long as they had their heads covered.  
Don't you think that Jesus' plan was so much bigger than all these petty rules?  Jesus has called us to live our lives in holiness and with the Spirit guiding our thoughts and actions.  He has covered us with grace and mercy and asks us to seize the day with all that He has offered.  God gives us peace and lets us know that He is not checking off our dos and don'ts.  He is looking at what direction we are heading and beckoning us to continue closer and closer.  We read this scripture last night and I think it fits what I am trying to say here.  Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand.  And we rejoice in the hope of the glory of God.  Not only so, but we also rejoice in our sufferings, because we know that suffering produces perseverance; perseverance, character; and character, hope.  And hope does not disappoint us, because God has poured out his love into our hearts by the Holy Spirit, whom he has given to us.  Romans 5:1-5
God has given women His Spirit just as He has given men His Spirit and that alone should make men want to listen to what women have to say...it should go both ways.
grace, Julie

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« Reply #144 on: Thu Feb 06, 2003 - 19:25:34 »



Offline Nevertheless

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1 Cor. 11:5
« Reply #145 on: Fri Feb 07, 2003 - 08:38:00 »
newtome, your posts show a complete lack of compassion and understanding for that which is outside of your experience.

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]no one is holding women down. women are simply dissatisfied. they are jealous of the responsibilites men were told to take. dissatisfaction, jealousy, your wants/selfish desires... none of these things shall ever motivate Christians.
[/quote]

It is hard to respond to such a statement in a loving manner.  You have taken the motives of a very few and assigned them to all.  Stereotyping such as that is invalid.  Anytime a member of a group that holds power prevents another from doing something they are being held down.  Sometimes this is a valid action, such as police preventing criminals from harming others.  But if the ones in power keep others from doing what God has empowered them to do, it is oppression, whether newtome thinks so or not.

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]frankly these arguments could be said exactly the same way for giving leadership positions to homosexuals. there's no longer male nor female right? 3:28 cannot be used to support implications or agendas[/quote]

The practice of homosexuality is sinful.  By your comparison you are implying that acting as a woman is also sinful.  I am offended!

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« Reply #145 on: Fri Feb 07, 2003 - 08:38:00 »

Offline janine

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« Reply #146 on: Mon Feb 10, 2003 - 09:51:01 »
Yes, do.

and Spurly - [!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Nope.  He didn't hold it under their noses.  He handed it to whoever stood up and stepped back.  Then he allowed God to speak through them.
Kevin [/quote]


 :clap:

Offline Tim

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« Reply #147 on: Tue Feb 04, 2003 - 13:22:17 »
I don't believe that anyone has actually addressed the question that trl asked. If I read his post correctly, he is asking whether or not 1 Cor. 11:5 applies to the assembly [congregational worship on the first day of the week].

To determine whether or not it applies to the assembly, it must be placed in its proper context. It seems to me that the context in which Paul wrote verse 5, starts way back at chapter 10, verse 15. Here Paul is speaking of matters of conscience and offending others. This context extends past verse 5, down to verse 16. At verse 17 the subject changes and it is here where Paul mentions \"that ye come together not for the better, but for the worse.\"

Based on the context in which we find 1 Cor. 11:5, I do not think that it applies to the assembly.

In His service,
Tim

Offline WileyClarkson

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« Reply #148 on: Wed Feb 05, 2003 - 08:59:15 »
I'm going to post something for everyone to read.  It's from a book called \"An Idea Whose Time Has Come\" by Floyd E Rose, minister of the Church of Christ At Pine Hill (Valdosta, Georgia); a church without walls-without denominational, cultural, class, race or gender walls; a congregations of Christians where women participate in all of the ministries of the church, without restrictions or reservations.

You can get a info on this little book at

http://www.clarksons.org/an_idea.htm

The following from the book is used with permission of the author.

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]
Behold, I Show You a Parable

Dr. Richard Barclay, Minister of the Cashmere Gardens Church of Christ in Houston, Texas, says, “the word parable means to throw alongside.

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« Reply #148 on: Wed Feb 05, 2003 - 08:59:15 »

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« Reply #149 on: Wed Feb 05, 2003 - 15:56:04 »
good points, worthy of consideration procopius! :thumbs-up:

Offline Tim

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« Reply #150 on: Thu Feb 06, 2003 - 15:05:41 »
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote (winky @ Feb. 06 2003,1:36)[/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]I'm not a Greek scholar by any stretch, but my understanding is that the word \"gune\" could be translated to mean \"women,\" rather than \"wives.\" This would lead to the idea that he was speaking to women who were deacons, rather than the wives of deacons. I also have been told that there is another phrase Paul uses to refer to wives (sorry, can't think of it) that involves a possessive pronoun to indicate the wife belonging to her husband. That pronoun is absent in this situation, which would lead us to believe he may have been meaning women rather than wives. Another support to this idea is that he gives no qualifications for elders' wives. Why would he give qualifications for deacons' wives, but not for elders' wives?[/quote]
Wendy,
You are, I believe, quite right in your statement that \"gune\" can be translated as both \"woman\" and \"wife\". But I disagree that either rendering would lead to the idea that Paul was addressing women who were deacons.

Strongs Greek Lexicon defines gune as:
1135 - gune
AV-women 129, wife 92; 221
1) a woman of any age, whether a virgin, or married, or a widow
2) a wife
2a) of a betrothed woman

It would again depend on the context where it is used to determine the proper rendering.

Let's look at the passage in question, and apply both renderings:
1 Tim. 3:12
(1) Let the deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well.
(2) Let the deacons be the husbands of one woman, ruling their children and their own houses well.
I can't see that it makes any difference in the meaning here as it relates to the gender of a deacon. It does, however, make a difference as to whether a deacon can be divorced or widowed, but that is not the question at hand.

For the sake of fairness, let's look at the word used for \"husband\" here also. The Greek word is \"aner\" and is defined as:
435 - aner an’-ayr
AV-man 156, husband 50, sir 6, fellow 1, not tr 2; 215
1) with reference to sex
1a) of a male
1b) of a husband
1c) of a betrothed or future husband
2) with reference to age, and to distinguish an adult man from a boy
3) any male
4) used generically of a group of both men and women

This word also has a duel usage - husband and man.
Again, let's look at the passage in question, and apply both renderings:
1 Tim. 3:12
(1) Let the deacons be the husbands of one wife/woman, ruling their children and their own houses well.
(2) Let the deacons be the man of one wife/woman, ruling their children and their own houses well.
I can't see that this makes any difference either in the meaning here as it relates to the gender of a deacon.

I believe that 1 Tim. 3:12 tells us that a deacon is to be a man.
Do you agree?
Do you think I have treated this verse fairly?

In His service,
Tim

Offline WileyClarkson

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« Reply #151 on: Thu Feb 06, 2003 - 18:47:16 »
newtome,

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]I believe that 1 Tim. 3:12 tells us that a deacon is to be a man.
Do you agree?
Do you think I have treated this verse fairly?[/quote]

I agree with your definitions of gune and aner, however, you are missing what Paul is saying.  

You are reading into what Paul is saying if you say only men can be deacons because of the \"shall be the husband of one wife\".  This is a diserable trait, if you want to call it that, for the men who are to deacons.  He does not put the limitation of male only on being a deacon.  

Paul addresses women who will be deacons as to what qualities they should have.  Also, in case you are using a NIV, which is a good example of saying what is not in the Greek, the wording which says in effect--wives (of deacons) shall be women with these traits -- is not in the original Greek.  The greek only says women will have these traits, which applies to women who are to be deacons.

You really need to read either Osburns \"Women in the church\" or Sandifer's \"Deacons: male & Female?\".  Both have excellect discussions of both sides of the particular issue and both are written for the churches of Christ and are very thorough in their greek analysis and study of the early church.

Offline Richard

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« Reply #152 on: Wed Feb 05, 2003 - 13:28:21 »
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Paul is addressing a specific problem within the Corithian church.  Their worship had become disorderly.  One of the ways in which this church was disorderly involved too many people speaking up at one time.  This direction was to a very specific problem.  [/quote]
I keep hearing this argument but my questions still remains.  If this is the case, why did he say, in 14:34 \"As in all the congregations of the saints....\"?
I'm not trying to be difficult, I'm just trying to understand what he meant, or more importantly what God is telling us.

I know what I want to believe, I just need to be sure that squares with what God wants me to believe.

Peace,

Richard

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« Reply #153 on: Fri Feb 07, 2003 - 08:30:27 »
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]frankly these arguments could be said exactly the same way for giving leadership positions to homosexuals. [/quote]

As far as I know, being a woman is not considered wicked in God's eyes.  That has to be the worst statement I have seen yet. :(

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« Reply #154 on: Mon Feb 10, 2003 - 09:51:23 »
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]What is your motivation when you serve communion? read scripture? pray?   You questioned my motivation...what is yours?[/quote]
i'm pretty sure that i just told you my motivation in the last post
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Do you personally lift holy hands in prayer?  
[/quote]
holy hands in prayer seems to refer more to a state of holiness than a posture, don't you think? as in \"your hands(referring to all of your body and mind), as Christians, ought to be pure when you come to God\" - the point of the verse being to not pray when you are still in a state of \"wrath and dissension\", but to first right yourself w/ your brother before coming to God.
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]What do you do with those scriptures before and after in I Timothy 2?  Are those just cultural and the verses on women are not[/quote]
if something is thrown out as culture, like braided hair, surely one cannot use that as an excuse to through out everything else one might disagree with.
and i don't truly believe that these verses before 2:11 should be thrown out at all[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]1 Timothy 2:9
Likewise, I want women to adorn themselves with proper clothing, modestly and discreetly, not with braided hair and gold or pearls or costly garments,
1 Timothy 2:10
but rather by means of good works, as is proper for women making a claim to godliness.
[/quote]
this has recently become a big issue at a church i know of, where the young ladies are dressing in a quite immodest way and bringing the youth leaders into some divisoin between themselves.
i say, these verses still apply directly in principle. i don't think they're just cultural at all, or should be dismissed at all. just like the ones afterward (11 and 12) shouldn't be dismissed. dressing in ways that are considered pretty or even acceptable by the world is not acceptable for Christian women. both then and now. i mean what's the point of pearls, gold, and flashy garments? they put the focus on you and not on God. and that's especially important given the lustful weakness of many Christian brothers in your midst, ESPECIALLY in a situation like i noted with guys in puberty!
and i don't truly believe that these verses after 2:12 are gone either:[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--] Timothy 2:13
For it was Adam who was first created, and then Eve.

1 Timothy 2:14
And it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression.

1 Timothy 2:15
But women will be preserved through the bearing of children if they continue in faith and love and sanctity with self-restraint. [/quote]

why would these cease to apply? the reference to adam had nothing to do with the culture of the time this book was written, right? seems to show that these tenants applied through all time back to the first man and woman on the planet! - not just to that particular culture!
self-restraint. what does this mean in the context of 2:11 and 2:12? or in the context of all the relationships of women' between adam and paul?
chapter 1 seems to still apply to us today, or does law no longer apply to those who do what is sinful?
chapter 3 seems to still apply to our culture today, or can we just through out elders and deacons as cultural?

so as far as before and after chapter 2, everything seems to still apply to us today. doesn't seem prudent to pull a couple verses directly out of the middle and chuck em!



[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Am I just to take the scriptures that specifically say women or woman and apply only those scriptures to me?  [/quote]
there's no reason to think that those verses would cease to apply. there are still slaves today on this planet, and the verses to them still apply. the same is true about women.
all the verses in the NT are to apply to you as a Christian. and then the ones about women are to more specifically refine those earlier verses.
the same is true for men. there are still certain verses that apply only to elders. all of the earlier verses apply to them , plus the refinement of the those that are specifically to elders.
and \"regular\" men, for that matter. they don't take all the verses to apply to them, because they aren't all elders, and none of them are women, and none can bear a child in his stomach. there are general instructions, then there are specifics based on who you are and what you do.
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Am I to just be quiet and have children and dress modestly and my salvation is complete? [/quote]
no, these are further, specific instructions that enhance and define more perfectly what you as a woman are to be as a Christian. the specifics like those in 1 timothy 2 :11 and 12 are well defined directions that cannot be ignored b/c one prefers other verses.
there are Christian guidelines, then there are exceptions to the way an elder must act to be righteous and acceptable to God, that are in addition to and beyond those guidelines. husband of one wife, head of his household, able to well manage his children, etc.
there are Christian quidelines, then there are exceptions to the way a woman must act to be rightous and acceptable to God, that are in addition to and beyond those guidelines.

i am very open to discussing exactly what those guidelines are and then ojectively applying the specifics to find out the fullness of God's directions to us. so lets do so, with love and appreciation of one another, shall we?

i'd still love to hear some comments on that outline i found too. some of it i agree with, and some of it didn't seem supported by scriptures. what do you all think?