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Author Topic: 10 Reasons not to believe in eternal torment.  (Read 5132 times)
jiggyfly
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« Reply #165 on: November 19, 2009, 04:21:48 PM »

Well can you show me the Greek word in this text that is translated as "shall"?

ἵνα ἐν τῷ ὀνόματι Ἰησοῦ πᾶν γόνυ κάμψῃ ἐπουρανίων καὶ ἐπιγείων καὶ καταχθονίων καὶ πᾶσα γλῶσσα ἐξομολογήσηται ὅτι κύριος Ἰησοῦς Χριστὸς εἰς δόξαν θεοῦ πατρός

Here's KJV keyed with Strongs
Php 2:10  ThatG2443 atG1722 theG3588 nameG3686 of JesusG2424 everyG3956 kneeG1119 should bow,G2578 of things in heaven,G2032 andG2532 things in earth,G1919 andG2532 things under the earth;G2709
Php 2:11  AndG2532 that everyG3956 tongueG1100 should confessG1843 thatG3754 JesusG2424 ChristG5547 is Lord,G2962 toG1519 the gloryG1391 of GodG2316 the Father.G3962

I think the reason your having a hard time understanding this scripture is because  you are putting emphasis on a word that is not part of the original text.
The word "shall" is translated from G1843 by examining the case of the word, rather than the root of the word.  The lexicon does not give this information but you can find it in a good interlinear Bible.

In this case, the case of the word (aorist subjunctive) expresses an action which is not certain but possible, though perhaps doubtful.

"Might confess" would be the best literal translation, but should is just fine, in the sense that they ought to.

And of course this is your opinion, but "shall" or "should" is simply not in the text it is added by translations. One could just as easily add "will" as some translations do.

There is no indication in the text that God will make or force every knee bow or every tongue confess.

exomologeō
ex-om-ol-og-eh'-o
From G1537 and G3670; to acknowledge or (by implication of assent) agree fully: - confess, profess, promise.
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« Reply #165 on: November 19, 2009, 04:21:48 PM »

 
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Sherman Nobles
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« Reply #166 on: November 19, 2009, 05:51:48 PM »

The word "shall" is translated from G1843 by examining the case of the word, rather than the root of the word.  The lexicon does not give this information but you can find it in a good interlinear Bible.

In this case, the case of the word (aorist subjunctive) expresses an action which is not certain but possible, though perhaps doubtful.

"Might confess" would be the best literal translation, but should is just fine, in the sense that they ought to.

And of course this is your opinion, but "shall" or "should" is simply not in the text it is added by translations. One could just as easily add "will" as some translations do.

There is no indication in the text that God will make or force every knee bow or every tongue confess.

exomologeō
ex-om-ol-og-eh'-o
From G1537 and G3670; to acknowledge or (by implication of assent) agree fully: - confess, profess, promise.

Hi Jiggy,

Jarrod is correct in that the Mood of the verb in Greek indicates in this case whether the word "shall" should be added or not.  In Greek, the various possible Tenses, Voices, and Moods of verbs are indicated by the different endings.  In English, Tense, Voice, and Mood is communicated by a combination of different spellings and the addition of words such as "will" or "shall". 

In this case, the Mood of the verbs "bow" and "confess" is Subjunctive and thus in order to correctly translate them into English, the words "shall" or "should" need to be added.  Subjuctive is the mood of probability.  The Imperative Mood communicates command. 

I believe that an analysis of the literary context of Phil.2.10-11 indicates that such bowing and confessing "will certainly" take place, but the actual mood of these two words is the mood of probability, not certainty, as in "likely will" or "should". 

If the doctrine of UR rested SOLELY on this verse, then UR would be on very shacky ground, so shacky that I wouldn't believe it to be true.  And as you know, I do believe UR is true, and that one day every knee will bow.

As to your disagreement with Dayvd, if I understand him correctly, he's saying that the word "bow" indicates that everyone will be forced to bow, whether they want to or not.  However, such is not the case.  The word itself does not speak specifically to the motive behind the act.  Again, from the literary context, such bowing and confessing is the result of the sacrifice of Christ and implies a positive response to such a self-sacrificing act of love.  At least, that's the sense that I get from the passage.  Others could see things differently and it would be difficult to convince them otherwise.

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"Keep reminding them of these things. Warn them before God against quarreling about words; it is of no value, and only ruins those who listen. Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a workman who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly handles the word of truth." 2 Timothy 2:14 & 15

If interested the following link will is to a thread with my beliefs on Marriage, Divorce, and Remarriage: http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/index.php/topic,20182.0.html
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« Reply #166 on: November 19, 2009, 05:51:48 PM »

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« Reply #167 on: November 19, 2009, 06:48:56 PM »

Quote from: Sherman Nobles

As to your disagreement with Dayvd, if I understand him correctly, he's saying that the word "bow" indicates that everyone will be forced to bow, whether they want to or not.  However, such is not the case.  The word itself does not speak specifically to the motive behind the act.  Again, from the literary context, such bowing and confessing is the result of the sacrifice of Christ and implies a positive response to such a self-sacrificing act of love.  At least, that's the sense that I get from the passage.  Others could see things differently and it would be difficult to convince them otherwise.



My contention would be that while all should, based on who Jesus is and what He did, not all will do so freely.  aka While Obama is the Preident of all, it's gonna take some effort to get everyone to freely admit it. ;)
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« Reply #168 on: November 19, 2009, 07:04:04 PM »

1. You never read the Bible
2. You don't like the idea of eternal torment.
3. You have crafted a God in your mind you are more comfortable with.
4. You are not willing to repent of your sins.
5. You have believed another Gospel.
6. You don't see the magnitude of sin.
7. You don't understand the Cross.
8. You believe people are essentially good.
9. You are deceived by false doctrine.
10. You are an atheist.

Enjoy.
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jiggyfly
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« Reply #169 on: November 19, 2009, 10:56:51 PM »

The word "shall" is translated from G1843 by examining the case of the word, rather than the root of the word.  The lexicon does not give this information but you can find it in a good interlinear Bible.

In this case, the case of the word (aorist subjunctive) expresses an action which is not certain but possible, though perhaps doubtful.

"Might confess" would be the best literal translation, but should is just fine, in the sense that they ought to.

And of course this is your opinion, but "shall" or "should" is simply not in the text it is added by translations. One could just as easily add "will" as some translations do.

There is no indication in the text that God will make or force every knee bow or every tongue confess.

exomologeō
ex-om-ol-og-eh'-o
From G1537 and G3670; to acknowledge or (by implication of assent) agree fully: - confess, profess, promise.

Hi Jiggy,

Jarrod is correct in that the Mood of the verb in Greek indicates in this case whether the word "shall" should be added or not.  In Greek, the various possible Tenses, Voices, and Moods of verbs are indicated by the different endings.  In English, Tense, Voice, and Mood is communicated by a combination of different spellings and the addition of words such as "will" or "shall".  

In this case, the Mood of the verbs "bow" and "confess" is Subjunctive and thus in order to correctly translate them into English, the words "shall" or "should" need to be added.  Subjuctive is the mood of probability.  The Imperative Mood communicates command.  

I believe that an analysis of the literary context of Phil.2.10-11 indicates that such bowing and confessing "will certainly" take place, but the actual mood of these two words is the mood of probability, not certainty, as in "likely will" or "should".  

If the doctrine of UR rested SOLELY on this verse, then UR would be on very shacky ground, so shacky that I wouldn't believe it to be true.  And as you know, I do believe UR is true, and that one day every knee will bow.

As to your disagreement with Dayvd, if I understand him correctly, he's saying that the word "bow" indicates that everyone will be forced to bow, whether they want to or not.  However, such is not the case.  The word itself does not speak specifically to the motive behind the act.  Again, from the literary context, such bowing and confessing is the result of the sacrifice of Christ and implies a positive response to such a self-sacrificing act of love.  At least, that's the sense that I get from the passage.  Others could see things differently and it would be difficult to convince them otherwise.



Like I said some translations use "will confess" rather than "shall or should confess" and the Greek word exomologeō  obviously doesn't indicate force, nor suggestion, but we can disagree and still agree with UR. Myself I can't see the reason for stating inclusively  "of [things] in heaven, and [things] in earth, and [things] under the earth;" if it is just suggestively everyone "should bow" but then that's just me.



Another point to be made here is that if the Truth is that everyone confesses because of force than that means everyone including Dayvd, you and me.

As far as basing UR on one verse I agree and I know you agree that UR is based on the whole of scripture
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jiggyfly
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« Reply #170 on: November 19, 2009, 11:11:52 PM »

1. You never read the Bible
2. You don't like the idea of eternal torment.
3. You have crafted a God in your mind you are more comfortable with.
4. You are not willing to repent of your sins.
5. You have believed another Gospel.
6. You don't see the magnitude of sin.
7. You don't understand the Cross.
8. You believe people are essentially good.
9. You are deceived by false doctrine.
10. You are an atheist.

Enjoy.

You are ludicrous  Rolling on floor laughing Rolling on floor laughing Rolling on floor laughing ,  you might want to read the rules Charles.
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« Reply #170 on: November 19, 2009, 11:11:52 PM »

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Sherman Nobles
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« Reply #171 on: November 20, 2009, 08:00:20 AM »

Quote from: Sherman Nobles
As to your disagreement with Dayvd, if I understand him correctly, he's saying that the word "bow" indicates that everyone will be forced to bow, whether they want to or not.  However, such is not the case.  The word itself does not speak specifically to the motive behind the act.  Again, from the literary context, such bowing and confessing is the result of the sacrifice of Christ and implies a positive response to such a self-sacrificing act of love.  At least, that's the sense that I get from the passage.  Others could see things differently and it would be difficult to convince them otherwise.

My contention would be that while all should, based on who Jesus is and what He did, not all will do so freely.  aka While Obama is the Preident of all, it's gonna take some effort to get everyone to freely admit it. ;)

Yes, but in that day, when Jesus is glorified and everyone sees Him for who He really is, I think we'll all be like Isaiah, falling on our faces, confessing He is Lord for it will certainly be evident, bemoaning just how messed up we are, and then He'll take a coal from the altar and purify us.  Hallelujah!
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If interested the following link will is to a thread with my beliefs on Marriage, Divorce, and Remarriage: http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/index.php/topic,20182.0.html
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« Reply #172 on: November 20, 2009, 08:16:22 AM »

Hi Jiggy,

Jarrod is correct in that the Mood of the verb in Greek indicates in this case whether the word "shall" should be added or not.  In Greek, the various possible Tenses, Voices, and Moods of verbs are indicated by the different endings.  In English, Tense, Voice, and Mood is communicated by a combination of different spellings and the addition of words such as "will" or "shall". 

In this case, the Mood of the verbs "bow" and "confess" is Subjunctive and thus in order to correctly translate them into English, the words "shall" or "should" need to be added.  Subjuctive is the mood of probability.  The Imperative Mood communicates command. 

I believe that an analysis of the literary context of Phil.2.10-11 indicates that such bowing and confessing "will certainly" take place, but the actual mood of these two words is the mood of probability, not certainty, as in "likely will" or "should". 

If the doctrine of UR rested SOLELY on this verse, then UR would be on very shacky ground, so shacky that I wouldn't believe it to be true.  And as you know, I do believe UR is true, and that one day every knee will bow.

As to your disagreement with Dayvd, if I understand him correctly, he's saying that the word "bow" indicates that everyone will be forced to bow, whether they want to or not.  However, such is not the case.  The word itself does not speak specifically to the motive behind the act.  Again, from the literary context, such bowing and confessing is the result of the sacrifice of Christ and implies a positive response to such a self-sacrificing act of love.  At least, that's the sense that I get from the passage.  Others could see things differently and it would be difficult to convince them otherwise.

Like I said some translations use "will confess" rather than "shall or should confess" and the Greek word exomologeō  obviously doesn't indicate force, nor suggestion, but we can disagree and still agree with UR. Myself I can't see the reason for stating inclusively  "of [things] in heaven, and [things] in earth, and [things] under the earth;" if it is just suggestively everyone "should bow" but then that's just me.

Agreed, exomologeo does not indicate that the confession was forsed.  In fact, doesn't scripture elsewhere say that a person can only confess Jesus as Lord under the inspiration of the Spirit.  On that Day, how much more will honesty and truth reign!  And yes, the whole sense of the passage is universalistic to me, thus I would lean towards translating it "will confess" instead of "might confess". 

Quote
As far as basing UR on one verse I agree and I know you agree that UR is based on the whole of scripture

Yes, I agree whole-heartedly!  I believe that scripture indicates that God will reconcile all things to Himself.  God is in control and gives us limited, very limited, autonomy.  And salvation is completely based on the Grace of God as revealed in the sacrifice of Christ. 

And concerning the topic at hand - Hell, scripture indicates that punishment in the afterlife is Remedial, intended to effect positive change in the ones being punished, healing our souls.
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"Keep reminding them of these things. Warn them before God against quarreling about words; it is of no value, and only ruins those who listen. Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a workman who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly handles the word of truth." 2 Timothy 2:14 & 15

If interested the following link will is to a thread with my beliefs on Marriage, Divorce, and Remarriage: http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/index.php/topic,20182.0.html
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« Reply #173 on: November 20, 2009, 08:52:03 AM »

I realize that you were being sarcastic Charles, but the traditional doctrine of Hell does not line up with scripture, much less the character of God.  

If Hell was true:

1.  Surely, Adam would have been warned of such, but he wasn’t.  Instead, death was threatened.
2.  Surely, a specific word in both Hebrew and Greek would have been used to reference such, but there is not a word in biblical Hebrew or Greek that can correctly be interpreted as Hell.
3.  Surely, it would have been a major emphasis concerning the penalties of breaking the Law of Moses, but it wasn't.  Instead, the penalty for sin spoken of throughout scripture is primarily, almost exclusively, negative results in our earthly existence like death, perishing, disease, destruction, sickness, oppression, slavery, poverty, etc.
4.  Surely, many passages throughout scripture, especially in the Old Testament, would specifically speak of endless torture.  However, only a couple of OT scriptures speak of any form of punishment in the afterlife; and these scriptures do not speak of “endless torture” and can in fact be (should be imo) understood and interpreted as “remedial punishment”.
5.  Surely, the early Creeds of the church would have at least mentioned Hell or “endless punishment”; but they do not.
6.  Surely, the vast majority, if not all, the theological schools of the first five centuries of the church would have taught such; but schools that taught Hell were the minority.  In fact, schools that taught UR were the majority, until the RCC started wielding political power.
7.  Surely, the leaders of the church would have not allowed Gregory of Nyssa, a known Universalist, to preside over the Seventh Ecumenical Council.
8.  Surely, Origen, the Gregories, Basil the Great, and other known Universalists would have been repeatedly denounced as heretics, but they weren’t.  
9.  Surely, St. Jerome would not have had to MISTRANSLATE “Infernum” (Hell) INTO his translation of scripture, the Latin Vulgate, to support his belief in such, but He did 110 times.  
10.  Surely, Jesus would have spoken of Hell, instead of speaking of Gehenna, which the Jews understood as being like Purgatory, a place/event of Remedial Punishment -- not endless torture!
« Last Edit: November 20, 2009, 09:51:10 AM by Sherman Nobles » Logged

"Keep reminding them of these things. Warn them before God against quarreling about words; it is of no value, and only ruins those who listen. Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a workman who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly handles the word of truth." 2 Timothy 2:14 & 15

If interested the following link will is to a thread with my beliefs on Marriage, Divorce, and Remarriage: http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/index.php/topic,20182.0.html
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« Reply #173 on: November 20, 2009, 08:52:03 AM »

 
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« Reply #174 on: November 20, 2009, 08:59:59 AM »

Quote from: Sherman Nobles
As to your disagreement with Dayvd, if I understand him correctly, he's saying that the word "bow" indicates that everyone will be forced to bow, whether they want to or not.  However, such is not the case.  The word itself does not speak specifically to the motive behind the act.  Again, from the literary context, such bowing and confessing is the result of the sacrifice of Christ and implies a positive response to such a self-sacrificing act of love.  At least, that's the sense that I get from the passage.  Others could see things differently and it would be difficult to convince them otherwise.

My contention would be that while all should, based on who Jesus is and what He did, not all will do so freely.  aka While Obama is the Preident of all, it's gonna take some effort to get everyone to freely admit it. ;)

Yes, but in that day, when Jesus is glorified and everyone sees Him for who He really is, I think we'll all be like Isaiah, falling on our faces, confessing He is Lord for it will certainly be evident, bemoaning just how messed up we are, and then He'll take a coal from the altar and purify us.  Hallelujah!

If it happens that way I'll have even more of a reason to sing.  UR sounds better than annhiliation!  Unfortunately I just don't see it happening that way.
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« Reply #174 on: November 20, 2009, 08:59:59 AM »

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« Reply #175 on: November 20, 2009, 11:16:00 AM »

Quote from: Sherman Nobles
As to your disagreement with Dayvd, if I understand him correctly, he's saying that the word "bow" indicates that everyone will be forced to bow, whether they want to or not.  However, such is not the case.  The word itself does not speak specifically to the motive behind the act.  Again, from the literary context, such bowing and confessing is the result of the sacrifice of Christ and implies a positive response to such a self-sacrificing act of love.  At least, that's the sense that I get from the passage.  Others could see things differently and it would be difficult to convince them otherwise.

My contention would be that while all should, based on who Jesus is and what He did, not all will do so freely.  aka While Obama is the Preident of all, it's gonna take some effort to get everyone to freely admit it. ;)

Yes, but in that day, when Jesus is glorified and everyone sees Him for who He really is, I think we'll all be like Isaiah, falling on our faces, confessing He is Lord for it will certainly be evident, bemoaning just how messed up we are, and then He'll take a coal from the altar and purify us.  Hallelujah!


The teaching that ALL will be reconciled falls right into that which Paul warned against "Shall we sin that grace may abound?  God forbid".  This teaching could cause a criminal to say "Well, I've blown it already in this life---what's the point of turning my life around now?  I'll get it right in the next life".

That Jesus needed to die such a horrible, gruesome death to redeem us, does not gel with the unrepentant and horrendous figures that have lived on earth who died atheists finally being reconciled also.   The Bible simply does not teach this.

We are saved by Grace---but the Bible nowhere teaches that one can reject that Grace and finally be reconciled to God in Heaven forever. Verses such as Hebrews 10:29 speak of the awful fate of those who "tread on the Son of God". To negate the teaching of Hell in the Bible, one has to also negate the teaching of Heaven.
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« Reply #176 on: November 20, 2009, 11:21:54 AM »



We are saved by Grace---but the Bible nowhere teaches that one can reject that Grace and finally be reconciled to God in Heaven forever. Verses such as Hebrews 10:29 speak of the awful fate of those who "tread on the Son of God". To negate the teaching of Hell in the Bible, one has to also negate the teaching of Heaven.

Nor does UR teach that one can reject the grace of God and still be reconciled to God in heaven.
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« Reply #177 on: November 20, 2009, 12:19:49 PM »

The teaching that ALL will be reconciled falls right into that which Paul warned against "Shall we sin that grace may abound?  God forbid".  This teaching could cause a criminal to say "Well, I've blown it already in this life---what's the point of turning my life around now?  I'll get it right in the next life".

Actually, if you read Rom.6 in context of Rom.5, Paul taught UR in Rom. 5, and because of that some believers were irrationally and likely sarcastically in essence saying, "Well if all are saved by the sacrifice of Christ and Grace is so amazing, we might as well sin all the more so that grace may increase!"  To which Paul said basically replies in Rom.6, "Don't be foolish, sin brings bondage and death.  If we've been freed from sin and given life why would we want that bondage and death again!"   And it's significant to note that Paul in response to that foolish reply did NOT threaten endless punishment. 

Quote
That Jesus needed to die such a horrible, gruesome death to redeem us, does not gel with the unrepentant and horrendous figures that have lived on earth who died atheists finally being reconciled also.   The Bible simply does not teach this.

We are saved by Grace---but the Bible nowhere teaches that one can reject that Grace and finally be reconciled to God in Heaven forever. Verses such as Hebrews 10:29 speak of the awful fate of those who "tread on the Son of God". To negate the teaching of Hell in the Bible, one has to also negate the teaching of Heaven.

Actually, Grace is all the more amazing the worse sin is!  Does this mean we should sin more?  Of course not! 

And let's look at what Heb.20.29 actually says.

Heb. 10:26-29,
26 For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a fearful expectation of judgment, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries. 28 Anyone who has set aside the law of Moses dies without mercy on the evidence of two or three witnesses. 29 How much worse punishment, do you think, will be deserved by the one who has spurned the Son of God, and has profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has outraged the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know him who said, "Vengeance is mine; I will repay." And again, "The Lord will judge his people." 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

1) Note that this passage is talking about those who have already "received the knowledge of the truth" (26) and even been "sanctified by the blood of the covenant" (29), who are "his people" (30). 

2) Note that "adversaries" in vs.26, can (and should be imo) interpreted as "contrary things".  Thus, what is being burnt up in judgment are the wicked attitudes and actions, the wood, hay, and stubble of a Believer's life!  This does not imply "Hell" but has more of a connotation of "Purgatory".

So even this passage which speaks of the judgment of Believers should be understood as being of the purpose of effecting positive change in the one being so judged!  And this passage is not even speaking of judgment concerning the vast numbers of people who have no "knowledge of the truth", and who have not been privaledged to be "sanctified by the blood of the covenant", who are not "his people."

"To whom much is given, much is required!"  We believers are the one's who most need to fear the Judgment, because we should know better!

It is Believers that need to be warned of Judgment! Unbelievers need to hear the Good News of God's love and acceptance!  Sadly, much of the church has this backwards teaching that Unbelievers need to be warned of Judgment; and Believers need to hear that God loves and accepts them.  As believers we should know that God loves and accepts us because of Christ, and we should live our lives are being judged by God our father!  And we as believers should embrace His Judgment and let it burn the Hell out of us, even now!
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If interested the following link will is to a thread with my beliefs on Marriage, Divorce, and Remarriage: http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/index.php/topic,20182.0.html
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« Reply #177 on: November 20, 2009, 12:19:49 PM »

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« Reply #178 on: November 20, 2009, 01:31:01 PM »

Did we really need another thread about the same thing?
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« Reply #179 on: November 20, 2009, 01:35:02 PM »

Umm...what about my sins? how can I face death with a clear conscience, unless Christ by the eternal Spirit offered Himself without spot to God (Hebrews 9)?
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John 3.16 contains great theology, without doubt.

Read God's Word prayerfully every day; it's a joy and privilege.

If folks feel they must have TATTOOS, have you considered having faith related designs tattooed?

(And try vacationing in the South: plenty of sun, and some great churches down there!)
10 Reasons not to believe in eternal torment. - Pages: 1 ... 7 8 9 10 11 [12] 13 14 15 16 17 ... 23 Go Up Print 
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