Another point that seems to be missed here by those promoting UR is that the analogy of parents and children is not biblical because before we are born-again we are "children of the devil" not children of God.

Within a family, it is true that children are *disciplined* for the purpose of restoration and future protection. But with regard to unbelievers, it is not a family situation it is a judicial situation. In a judicial system, a sentence of *punishment* is given such that the offender is to pay a penalty for their crime.

Any offense against an infinite, eternal God requires an infinite payment (that Christ paid) that one either consciously accepts as a gift or they must make the payment themselves.

Dave James
The Alliance for Biblical Integrity

Sorry dont have that post spaced too good......makes it hard to read......

but there are other verses I am wondering about....


Luke 12: 46The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.

 47And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.

 48But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.






1 Cor 3: 10According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.

 11For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

 12Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;

 13Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

 14If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.

 15If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.




Now I know these are spoken to believers.....but in the one the servant who knew not the lords will.........and the servant in the other who suffered loss but was saved by fire.....these sound like ones who may not know the lord.......

Either that or it sounds like a believers "Hell"

Do you think this could be everyones type of judgement?

Why not just stick to representing what you believe Gospel and leave representation of what UR believes to someone who actually knows what their talking about, it really reveals you ignorance on the topic.

There was no attempt to be clever, from what you said I thought you were recognizing that we shall all need purification and healing when we come into the presence of the Lord, even those of us who have devoted their whole lives to following the Lord like the prophet Isaiah.   If the presence of God brings the prophet to his knees in repentance, how much more shall the presence of God bring the unbeliever to his knees in repentance.  And of course scripture does say that every knee shall bow and every tongue shall confess that Jesus is Lord.


Actually, even the belief that God would annihilate (not torment them forever) the unbeliever is not "Orthodox Christian doctrine".

[/quote]
or

Temporal punishment that leads unbelievers to repentance and acceptance of the Lordship of Christ  ( UR doctrine )

Therefore my point is that parents do not punish children to cause them harm or agony expecting the child to love them for it. Even a spanking is momentary and not brutal. [/quote]

I agree, parents do not punish children to cause them harm or agony.  How much more does God not punish people to cause them harm or agony.  The punishment of God is meant to be Remedial as the word krisis means.  God's punishment/judgment of the believer and unbeliever Remedial - not vindictive, and any such "spankings" are momentary and not brutal.  Sadly, this understanding is lost in many English translations because the translators assumed the traditional doctrine of Hell. 


The punishment was momentary, not unending.  And scripture even says that Sodom and Gomorha will rise up in judgment against other cities who should surely have repented with the revelation that God had given them.   


Of course, the passage that you mention is a Parable meant to illicit repentance, right attitudes and lifestyles out of the living, especially from believers.  And as I've repeatedly shared and is easily verifiable for anyone even open to checking it out, the Jews to who Jesus was speaking understood Gehenna as a place of Remedial Punishment that one goes through in preparation for entrance into Ga Eden.  And the reference to outer darkness, weeping and gnashing of teeth was a reference to this belief.  It did not imply either endless torment or annihilation, but spoke of Remedial Punishment. 

Furthermore, as a Parable, it's important to not make it say more or less than what is intended.  And the Mt. 22 parable of a King inviting people to his son's wedding was meant as a rebuke to the Pharisees, to 1) rebuke them for not welcoming the kindom of God into their lives, and 2) for trusting in their own righteousness and not the Grace of God. 
 
This parable is not meant to convey the belief that punishment in the afterlife is either vindictive or endless.  In fact, this passage is not about punishment in the afterlife at all but about right living in the present.  Those who are outside of the kingdom, are outside of the community of faith (outer darkness) and suffer terribly (weeping and gnashing of teeth) being excluded from the true community of faith.


And yet that is the "Gospel" as presented in the traditional doctrine - turn or burn, turn to God in faith or burn in hell forever.   Whereas the Gospel as presented by Christian Universalists is that God loves you so much He's died for you ensuring your restoration to Him, so turn now to him in faith and repentance being delivered from the power of sin and fear of death, embrace the judgment and mercy of God and He'll give you abundant life, life filled with the love, joy, wholeness, and goodness of God even now!


Actually the Bible presents Christ as both the Bride Groom and the Victorious King.  Christian Universalism doesn't twist anything but recognizes that Jesus is both.  To those who oppose God all of their lives, He will be and is victorious over them, bringing them eventually to an end to themselves so that they can and will joyfully embrace His grace.  To those of us who accept Him, we are priviledged to be responsible members of His Kingdom even now, well before He conquers all.

Of course, the traditional doctrine of Hell teaches that Jesus, instead of conquering and bringing people into His kingdom, he never really does "conquer" them but leaves them outside of his kingdom forever sealing them in their rebellion. 

I think it is interesting to compare this thread to an almost identical one that started (and got shut down and locked) on the Plymouth Brethren forum. And no sooner did the person who started that thread (and got himself declared a heretic) disappear from that forum than a very similar thread shows up on this forum.

To see how things went on that thread (it's not very long) go here:
http://bbc.quist.ca/bb/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=3062&sid=17f0cc6e4a3ef43b960d1a3c44efe732

I would suggest that everyone involved in this thread go and read the other posts started and carried on by godisuniversal, they all seem to revolved around the idea that there is no hell, and eventually everyone gets saved.

Which means - by implication -  the death of Christ and the atonement were pretty much a waste of time, and Jesus was going to a lot of unnecessary trouble to do such a thing.

The implications of such a concept needs to really be thought about. Eternal punishment of the wicked is naturally disconcerting to humans, so what? The idea of a God who can create everything that exists, has more power than all the energy contained in all the stars, and who has no beginning, has always been and is one God in three persons is even more disconcerting.

The solution to disconcerting realities is not to chose heresy, it is to remind ourselves as Abraham did, "Shall not the judge of all the earth do right?"

Exactly!!!

Greeat post Lutheran brother


Great points gotagoodwife !


Excellent points!

Manna to you all!

God's is Just and Merciful in PROVIDING a means of departure from a path that leads to eternal separation from Him.

That separation alone is enough torment especially in the light of the knowledge, in hindsight of all the missed opportunities one would have had to accept and embrace His Christ....there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth!!!

"There will be weeping there, and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, but you yourselves thrown out. Luke 13:28

That's the words of Jesus and that seems to be pretty final!

Our assignment if we choose to take it, is to spread the Good News of the Kingdom of God and reach as many people as possible so they can CHOOSE to accept and receive God's Mercy, Justice, Forgiveness the Free Gift of Righteousness and the Grace of God.....before its too late!