Author Topic: 2 Timothy 3:14-17  (Read 6802 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline nerdneh

  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 1015
  • Manna: 0
  • Moderator
2 Timothy 3:14-17
« Reply #35 on: Wed Feb 26, 2003 - 23:36:32 »
Bobby is correct when he notes that Paul uses the general term for humanity anthropos in this section rather than aner or arsen which I believe Paul would have used if he had an exclusive male perogative in mind here. Or, lacking that, Paul would surely have said, \"Of course Timothy, you are the only one I have in mind, or perhaps some young preacher like you.\" This seems to have been, at best, the remotest sort of possibility.

Remember, any hermeneutic in a storm! This is one more sad example of idiosyncratic exegesis which gives all serious students of the Bible a bad name.

Christian Forums and Message Board

2 Timothy 3:14-17
« Reply #35 on: Wed Feb 26, 2003 - 23:36:32 »

Offline Son of a Preacher Man

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 662
  • Manna: 0
  • Gender: Male
2 Timothy 3:14-17
« Reply #36 on: Thu Feb 27, 2003 - 16:39:37 »
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote (janine @ Feb. 27 2003,11:21)[/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]SoaPy - your'e sorry PR has to go thru the weirdness at her church or you're sorry we get to discussing side issues around her problem?[/quote]
both

Offline patriciaredstone

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 865
  • Manna: 4
  • Moderator
2 Timothy 3:14-17
« Reply #37 on: Fri Feb 28, 2003 - 01:35:42 »
Wiley said:  \" That could indeed be a very interesting and useful word -- equivalentarian! \"

I think it is! I agree with egalitarians that women and men should serve side by side in all areas of the church. But I agree with complimentarians that because of gender differences, men and women have different gifts of service to offer and often, (but not always!) serve the spiritual needs of their own gender best. This is WHY we need to have both male and female spiritual leaders that are fully supported by the church. That's why I think we need another category. Equivalence is my answer to that.

When we talk about equality we are talking about struggle. Something has to suffer and be diminished in order to find balance -- to measure up with something else -- and that destructive process will, naturally, always create conflict because it can almost never be accomplished through willing sacrifice.

Equivalence, on the other hand is not concerned with the reconstructionist angst of equality. Equivalence begins with the acceptance of differences (including gender differences) and through active participation meets the task of balance, not by measuring and comparing, but by admiring and accepting and appropriating according to gifts.

Equivalence is concerned with building up not tearing down in order to achieve balance. It is not obcessed with fairness or that all should desire to meet under one accepted cultural banner of equality. In equivalence, all we need to sacrifice is our assumptions. Differences become attributes rather than handicaps. Gender-specific qualities are noted and admired and celebrated rather than feared and suppressed and veiled or diminshed in order to meet a standard.

And where equality has a goal to meet and a standard to maintain, eqivalence is fluid and graceful. It can adapt to life as life's needs change. Since equivalence is acceptance, it can accept change as a part of life, too. A married 22 year-old college graduate might want different challenges and responsiblities than a 30 year-old parent of three or a 50 year-old empty-nester with a live-in parent ... but most people live all three of those lives and even more. Equivalence is not static and does not even try to be. Flexibilty is what gives it the strength to weather the storms.

I think that the story of God in the Bible is one of eqivalence. God does not change, but God does reinvent Himself when the situation calls for something different. The Bible also celebrates gender differences. Even the Levitical sacrifices were gender specific ... a bull for this a heifer for that ... What did God mean by that? I don't know! You might as well ask me why he liked pomegranates so much ... But God apparently loves the balance and harmony of male and female. I think the entire Bible is about this balance and how to achieve it.

And, I'm happy to say that the best way I can describe my marriage is eqivalentarian!



[!--EDIT|patriciaredstone|Feb. 28 2003,01:39--]

Christian Forums and Message Board

2 Timothy 3:14-17
« Reply #37 on: Fri Feb 28, 2003 - 01:35:42 »

Offline WileyClarkson

  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 4288
  • Manna: 162
  • Gender: Male
  • Moderator
2 Timothy 3:14-17
« Reply #38 on: Fri Feb 28, 2003 - 13:47:57 »
The following is a quote from a book titled:

\"An Idea Whose Time Has Come\" by Floyd E. Rose

\"Slavery in America was built on the premise that the worst white man was better than the best black man.  Male chauvinism in the church is built on the premise that the least qualified male is more qualified than the most qualified female.\"

(this is a marque that runs on my web site)

Floyd Rose is the minister of the Church of Christ At Pine Hill in Valdosta, Georgia; a church without denominational, cultural, class, race or gender walls; a congregation of Christians where women participate in all of the ministries of the church, without restrictions or reservations.



Any Thoughts?

Christian Forums and Message Board

2 Timothy 3:14-17
« Reply #38 on: Fri Feb 28, 2003 - 13:47:57 »

Offline patriciaredstone

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 865
  • Manna: 4
  • Moderator
2 Timothy 3:14-17
« Reply #39 on: Sat Mar 01, 2003 - 00:55:21 »
Now, about ME ...

I would like to take the time to respond to many of the posts tonight, but I have to edit my husband's paper ... technical writing (yeeech!)



[!--EDIT|patriciaredstone|Mar. 01 2003,00:59--]

Christian Forums and Message Board

2 Timothy 3:14-17
« Reply #39 on: Sat Mar 01, 2003 - 00:55:21 »



Offline Bobby Valentine

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 245
  • Manna: 0
2 Timothy 3:14-17
« Reply #40 on: Wed Feb 26, 2003 - 12:25:37 »
C, did you ask your preacher if his position exempts you from reading 1 Timothy 2  :thumbup:

You are right his position is absurd.  The Pastoral Epistles were not meant for Timothy or Titus' personal consumption rather for the entire congregation.  

As for the phrase \"man of God\" Paul uses \"anthropos\" in v.17.  The term is not gender specific.  It can be fairly translated as \"person of God.\"

Shalom,
Bobby Valentine
[a href=\"mailto:restorationscholar@sbcglobal.net\"]restorationscholar@sbcglobal.net[/a]
Milwaukee, WI

Christian Forums and Message Board

2 Timothy 3:14-17
« Reply #40 on: Wed Feb 26, 2003 - 12:25:37 »

Offline Son of a Preacher Man

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 662
  • Manna: 0
  • Gender: Male
2 Timothy 3:14-17
« Reply #41 on: Thu Feb 27, 2003 - 00:05:45 »
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote (WileyClarkson @ Feb. 26 2003,10:08)[/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]when I hear the word \"qualified\" used for an elder.  That is hogwash, IMO...
  The correct word application is \"qualities\", as pointed out by Lynn Anderson in \"They Smell like Sheep\".  [/quote]
Is it just me, or do a whole lot of folks spend too much time splitting hairs over semantics?  Aren't the words \"qualified\" and \"qualities\" the derived from the same word?  In fact, wouldn't you find them both listed after the word \"quality\".

Wiley, it's not that I disagree with you.  I see exactly what you are saying and I agree, but how can the word \"qualified\" get yer goat, but \"qualities\" doesn't?  :D  I think we should all seek after the qualities given for elders.  Does that fly?  I know you didn't single me out, but you did take issue with my wording so I figured I'd say something.  To say it either way does not change to meaning of my post (leastwise not according to any dictionary I've found)--we pollute ourselves... we taint ourselves... and suddenly we no longer possess the \"qualities\" of an elder--hence, we are not \"qualified.\"  

Think about it!  The words are interchangeable depending on sentence structure.  Just because brother Anderson put a little spin on the word it doesn't change my Big Daddy Webster's.

I noticed somebody getting bent out of shape over another word on different thread.  In that person's mind, the word in question carried a certain connotation that had nothing to do with the actual definition of the word.  In fact, they were confusing it with a completely different word.

All too often I see people wax-intellectual over a particular word somebody else used.  They get so wrapped up in that single word, they entirely lose sight of the message behind the words.  They don't even understand the post because they are so locked in on the wording the meaning gets completely lost.  Now that makes the hair stand up on the back of neck because that reminds me of my HS and College English teachers/professors that somehow thought they knew more about what the writer meant than the writer ever knew him (or her) self.


SoaPMan

Offline winky

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1472
  • Manna: 7
  • Gender: Female
2 Timothy 3:14-17
« Reply #42 on: Thu Feb 27, 2003 - 15:58:01 »
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]I tried to add a new category to gender-justice called, \"equivalence\" (equivalentarian?) but the word tends to bog down the discussions because I have to keep explaining the difference between equality and equivalence.[/quote]

Gosh, sounds kind of similar to Wiley and SoaPman's differentiation between qualities and qualifications...hee hee. Sorry. Didn't mean to re-ignite that issue, but the similarity was too striking. :)

Hey, PR and Bobby, would you mind if I started a new thread and asked you guys to define egalitarian and complementarian and other related terms. I have a general idea of those two positions, but I'd love to have it more fleshed out. Or has the subject been re-hashed too much already? Or would you guys rather just give me the definitions here in this thread?

Wendy

Offline winky

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1472
  • Manna: 7
  • Gender: Female
2 Timothy 3:14-17
« Reply #43 on: Wed Feb 26, 2003 - 15:14:34 »
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]As to the logic ... Well, this is a guy who prompted the congregation to repeat three times in unison, \"The Church of Christ is a New Testament Church\" and then went on to use Old Testament stories to argue that we should not have praise teams, choirs, women in leadership ... [/quote]

Wow. I don't know about changing denominations necessarily (although possibly) but I think if there were other churches near by that used a better logic in interpreting scripture, I'd be checking them out. That's just me though. You may have more patience than I!

Christian Forums and Message Board

2 Timothy 3:14-17
« Reply #43 on: Wed Feb 26, 2003 - 15:14:34 »

Offline patriciaredstone

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 865
  • Manna: 4
  • Moderator
2 Timothy 3:14-17
« Reply #44 on: Fri Feb 28, 2003 - 02:03:33 »
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote (s1n4m1n @ Feb. 27 2003,5:50)[/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Obviously there are some principles in the letters that are applicable to every Christian (for example, men and women praying everywhere 1 Tim. 2:8-9). However, from what I can tell these are letters written to men who had oversight of a congregation(s).[/quote]
Well, this is the same way some treat the Old Testament: \"Obviously there are some principles that are applicable to Christians (for example: obeying God) However these books were written to Jews under the Mosaic Law.\"

I think this is a very limited and literal view for people from a church which holds a high-view of scripture.

And just when I thought I'd heard everything ...!

Offline Son of a Preacher Man

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 662
  • Manna: 0
  • Gender: Male
2 Timothy 3:14-17
« Reply #45 on: Fri Feb 28, 2003 - 15:11:53 »
Wiley,

I'm still in the process of studying and formulating the issue female elders.  I have come far in my study, but not so far as you.  Fortunately I still have time as I serve a congregation where there are no females even remotely interested in serving as elders. (Actually, I only have two men who possess the \"qualities\" (lol) of an elder and they aren't even willing to serve.  Argh!!!!) I can thank God that I do not have to tackle these issues at this time where I am.  I need more time to grow as a minister and I'm a firm believer in slow, implemented change because unity is always the bottom line.  I'm not the activist you are, so forgive.  But we need activist!  And we need moderators like me right there in the middle.  Know that I read everything (and I do mean everything) you post/write on this subject.  I've even been known to pop over to gal3:28 from time to time.  This last post you made is very interesting.

What Patricia is dealing with has happened to so many of my friends--many of whom are now DOC (BTW).  I have told them that I'm staying cofC because I want to fight the good fight from within so I can be there to help stabalize the bridge of change.  That's why I'm so heartbroken to hear we are probably losing another fighter!  Not that I think leaving is wrong, just that I wish we didn't keep losing those who might help us ten, twenty years down the road.  I think that's why I admire Janine's perseverence so much, because I know that many want to give up and when they do, I don't blame them!  I'm just stubborn enough and foolish enough to put up with all the trash, but it's trash all the same and I don't blame anybody for bailing out if it will benefit them spiritually to esape.  I hope they know they have my love and support regardless of what they do... and that includes you, Patricia.
  
And since Patricia has given a greenlight to our shenanigans... \"Traits\" is another good word.  

This morning I spent time and prayer considering how it was that I agreed with everything you wrote, but you seemed to have a problem with what I had written.  I wondered how it was possible that I could agree with you, but you couldn't agree with me.  I love the English language (As a dyslexic, I could do without the spelling and grammar, though), but so many people have indeed perverted certain words and they leave a bad taste in our mouth.  I even came up with a great example, but I'll save that for another time.  This is all I could think of...

My point has been and always will be that we (men and women alike) should strive to live in purity so that we might become a person that possesses the \"traits\", \"characteristics\", or \"qualities\" of an elder.  Very few live in such regard and therefore very few would be acceptable to serve as elders.  Now, if you've caught a few of my posts, then you know I'm as guilty of this impurity as the next man or woman.  I guess that's why I feel so strongly about our need to study the \"traits\", \"characteristics\", and/or \"qualities\" of elders.  If we all tried to live in such a way that God would create them in us, we'd be so much better off.

I've known many an awful elder, but I hope we can prepare my generation better so that there will be fewer in the future.

All my love to you, brother!  (And to all!)

SoaPMan

Offline patriciaredstone

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 865
  • Manna: 4
  • Moderator
2 Timothy 3:14-17
« Reply #46 on: Sat Mar 01, 2003 - 00:50:52 »
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote (WileyClarkson @ Feb. 28 2003,10:22)[/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]ooooo---I think I got kind of wordy on that last post---sorry for writing a book!!!  Didn't realize it was that long until I posted it.[/quote]
Give a guy a green light and he makes it into a freeway ...


Good thing it's a great post, Wiley!

Offline janine

  • Guardian-Patroller of Lee's Outer Darkness
  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 14001
  • Manna: 370
  • Gender: Female
  • Good Stuff
2 Timothy 3:14-17
« Reply #47 on: Wed Feb 26, 2003 - 12:29:52 »
I suppose he feels he's got the right handle on it from the point of view that the letter was written from Mentor Paul to Evangelist Timothy, and since no woman is going to be the point-man-located-evangelist for a Church of Christ, then no woman need concern herself with 1 & 2 Timothy.

boringoldguy

  • Guest
2 Timothy 3:14-17
« Reply #48 on: Wed Feb 26, 2003 - 15:09:22 »
I'd like to point out two things:

I don't really care how our elders perpetuate themselves; and

The elders we have aren't all that bad, just a little bit secretive and authoritarian.

I just think it's odd that we spend so much time discussing the subject when we have no real part in the process.

Offline janine

  • Guardian-Patroller of Lee's Outer Darkness
  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 14001
  • Manna: 370
  • Gender: Female
  • Good Stuff
2 Timothy 3:14-17
« Reply #49 on: Wed Feb 26, 2003 - 19:48:10 »
I'm not sure how you'd use OT arguments against women doing churchy things... like, you'd have to erase Deborah and Huldah and Esther and Tamar, for that matter... lots of OT women who did God's stuff God's way, even when the men around them wouldn't.

Offline janine

  • Guardian-Patroller of Lee's Outer Darkness
  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 14001
  • Manna: 370
  • Gender: Female
  • Good Stuff
2 Timothy 3:14-17
« Reply #50 on: Thu Feb 27, 2003 - 07:18:04 »
One thing going by characteristics rather than a checklist will do for you, for a congregation, is to force people to dig a little deeper into the process when they are considering elders.

Sometimes groups use those passages that list things like \"not pugnacious\" or \"husband of one wife\" as an actual  checklist.  The guy gets a column of checkmarks, he's in.

If the people discuss the features listed as qualities the guy needs to have been displaying and exercising in the lives of his fellow Christians, it works better.

P.S. patriciaredstone: sit back and enjoy the ride...

Offline duckman

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 274
  • Manna: 1
2 Timothy 3:14-17
« Reply #51 on: Fri Feb 28, 2003 - 07:42:38 »
I am new to the study of just what God intends a woman's role in the church to be.  I have many questions and much prayerful study to do on this issue.  I am thankful for the grace-centered posters here who are much further along on this path than I, and the insights they have provided here on this issue.

I happened to look at www.equip.org this morning (the site for the Christian Research Institute) and did a search on the word \"women\", which brought up several articles to read.  The first one I read (actually, the only one I've read this morning!) is entitled \"A Woman's Place: The Evangelical Debate Over the Role of Women in the Church\".  It gives definitions of the terms egalitarianism and complementarianism and presents each side's views on certain scriptures and their overall positions.

I found this article to be helpful to me in that the author does not state his position one way or the other, he just presents the two positions with equal treatment.  For me, that is a good place to start.

I am going to put a link here to the article - Lee, if I've violated any GCM policy by doing so, please forgive me.  I noticed that someone earlier wondered about the definition of the two terms, and thought it might be helpful to others who also might be new to the study of this issue.

Here is the link:

The Role of Women in the Church

I would ask for your prayers as I continue in my study.

God bless,

Duckman

Offline s1n4m1n

  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 3687
  • Manna: 55
  • Gender: Male
  • Another Day's Work
2 Timothy 3:14-17
« Reply #52 on: Thu Feb 27, 2003 - 17:50:27 »
Bobby,

I would have to disagree with you about who the \"Pastoral\" epistles were written to.

Its obvious these were personal letters from Paul to Timothy and Titus:

1 Timothy 1:1-2 -] Paul,... to Timothy
2 Timothy 2:1-2 -] Paul,... to Timothy

Titus 1:1-4 -] Paul,... to Titus

Obviously there are some principles in the letters that are applicable to every Christian (for example, men and women praying everywhere 1 Tim. 2:8-9). However, from what I can tell these are letters written to men who had oversight of a congregation(s).

I know this is a little off subject (whether the letters apply to women or not), I just wanted to put my $0.02 in.

Agape,

Ken

Offline WileyClarkson

  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 4288
  • Manna: 162
  • Gender: Male
  • Moderator
2 Timothy 3:14-17
« Reply #53 on: Fri Feb 28, 2003 - 22:22:39 »
ooooo---I think I got kind of wordy on that last post---sorry for writing a book!!!  Didn't realize it was that long until I posted it.

 

     
anything