Author Topic: 2nd Peter 2:4~God spare NOT the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell  (Read 1070 times)

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Offline RB

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Quote from: Peter
2nd Peter 2:4~"For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto the judgement."
"For if God spared not the angels that sinned"~By who are meant the devil and his angels; who are spirits created by God and as such were good; their first estate which they left was pure and holy, as well as high and honorable; they, were at first in the truth, though they abode not in it; they were once among the morning stars and sons of God, and were angels of light; their numbers are many, and therefore are here expressed in the plural number, "angels", though it cannot be said how large, a number that cannot be counted.

"God spared not"~ Notwithstanding the dignity and excellency of their nature, in strict justice, and awful severity, without any mercy, inflicted due punishment on them; wherefore it cannot be thought that false teachers, who, as they, abide not in the truth, but deny and oppose it, should escape the vengeance of God, for they will not.

"but cast them down to hell"~In what sense are we to understand the word hell as used by Peter?  It cannot be understood as the lake of fire, for that is after the judgment~for which they are reserved for...which is to come, as is evident by even the angles themselves: Besides, they have been here since their fall and will be here until the end of this world.
Quote
Matthew 8:29~"And behold they cried out saying, What have we to do with thee Jesus, thou Son of God?  art thou come hither to torment us before the time?"
They know that there is a day appointed for them to be judge and then cast into the lake of fire, or into the deep, as used by Mark and Luke.

Also, the world is full of evil spirits as is evident by many scriptures in the NT, and in the  book of the Revelation of Jesus Christ.  Hell in this scripture is explain to us by Peter as he said these words:

"and delivered them into chains of darkness"~When they left their first estate, by sinning, God Almighty delivered them into chains of darkness~which means their sins left them under the guilt of sin, which is the power of darkness, and in black despair; shutting them up in unbelief, impenitence, and hardness of mind; being holden with the cords of their sins, and in the most dreadful state of bondage and captivity to their lusts, in just judgment on them; and in the most miserable and uncomfortable condition, being driven from the realms of light, deprived of the face and presence of God, in the utmost horror and trembling, and fearful looking for of judgment, and fiery indignation to consume them; and in utter darkness, without the least glimmering of light, joy, peace, and comfort; and where there is nothing but weeping, wailing, and gnashing of teeth; and being also under the restraints of the power and providence of God, and not able to stir or move, or do anything without divine permission; and being likewise, by the everlasting, unalterable, and inscrutable purposes and decrees of God, appointed to everlasting wrath and destruction; by which they are consigned and bound over to it, and held fast, that they cannot escape it!  They are there~

"to be reserved unto judgment"~And judge they shall be! By Jesus Christ and his saints.  This is the prison of hell in which they are now suffering under, there waiting for that great day of the wrath of Almighty God.  This hell, they will never escape from, they are forever under this chains of darkness and deception in which they are now living under. Their final abode will be eternal destruction in the lake of fire and brimstone.

What are your thoughts concerning this scripture from Peter?

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Offline Bemark

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Great thread that most will avoid.

Does God create a perfect creation ?

I will put my opinion out there from the beginning

Angels tempt mankind , mankind tempts angels.

God has a plan. In this plan some will rise and some will fall.

We are both being tested .

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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What are your thoughts concerning this scripture from Peter?
It's another Biblical reference to a story that isn't in the Bible.

I can almost hear RB's brain saying, "oh no, not this again."  rofl

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Offline RB

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It's another Biblical reference to a story that isn't in the Bible.
Many such true stories in God's words that are broken down pieces of a spiritual puzzle that the student of the scriptures must put together before they can see the the TRUE biblical doctrine of that story. ::amen!::

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Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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[Chapter 54]

1 And I looked and turned to another part of the earth, and saw there a deep valley with burning 2 fire. And they brought the kings and the mighty, and began to cast them into this deep valley. 3 And there mine eyes saw how they made these their instruments, iron chains of immeasurable weight. 4 And I asked the angel of peace who went with me, saying: ' For whom are these chains being prepared ' And he said unto me: ' These are being prepared for the hosts of Azazel, so that they may take them and cast them into the abyss of complete condemnation, and they shall cover their jaws with rough stones as the Lord of Spirits commanded. 6 And Michael, Gabriel, Raphael, and Phanuel shall take hold of them on that great day, and cast them on that day into the burning furnace, that the Lord of Spirits may take vengeance on them for their unrighteousness in becoming subject to Satan and leading astray those who dwell on the earth.'

 ::whistle::

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Offline RB

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[Chapter 54]

1 And I looked and turned to another part of the earth, and saw there a deep valley with burning 2 fire. And they brought the kings and the mighty, and began to cast them into this deep valley. 3 And there mine eyes saw how they made these their instruments, iron chains of immeasurable weight. 4 And I asked the angel of peace who went with me, saying: ' For whom are these chains being prepared ' And he said unto me: ' These are being prepared for the hosts of Azazel, so that they may take them and cast them into the abyss of complete condemnation, and they shall cover their jaws with rough stones as the Lord of Spirits commanded. 6 And Michael, Gabriel, Raphael, and Phanuel shall take hold of them on that great day, and cast them on that day into the burning furnace, that the Lord of Spirits may take vengeance on them for their unrighteousness in becoming subject to Satan and leading astray those who dwell on the earth.'

 ::whistle::
My good man, I live by this: First, In things doubtful, I only follow what seems probable. Secondly, In things questionable, I only follow that which I can read from the Holy Scriptures that God has preserved for us~ Which I KNOW proceeds out of the mouth of God. The book of Enoch is not the voice of God for us.

Besides, those words above you quoted have absolutely nothing in common with what Peter said. 

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Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Besides, those words above you quoted have absolutely nothing in common with what Peter said.
If that's what you really think, then you don't understand part of what was written.

Offline RB

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If that's what you really think, then you don't understand part of what was written.
What part are you speaking of? I'm NOT trying to be a smart --- but truly am asking with all sincerity. Surely you are not saying that part of the Word of God is missing? Are you? Or, are you saying the book of Enoch is NOT what I'm not understanding? OR, both? If so, then you are right, for I do not seek truth outside of the 66 books that are called the word of God.
« Last Edit: Fri Oct 02, 2020 - 03:45:58 by RB »

Offline Rella

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My good man, I live by this: First, In things doubtful, I only follow what seems probable.

Not to start the day off argumentatively... though perhaps that should be my middle name.... What seems probable is a statement that says it is likely but not certain to be or become true or real; In otherwords.... may prove to be false. I am making a statement here and promise all the readers I will back off  ::tippinghat::

Secondly, In things questionable, I only follow that which I can read from the Holy Scriptures that God has preserved for us~ Which I KNOW proceeds out of the mouth of God.

Herein lies a problem as it is by your admission, many times in the past, that you ONLY read the King James, which means you rely only on what his translators wrote. Why in the world would you believe the words of anyone, much less some one who was removed from the time Jesus walked the earth by centuries that they would have gotten everything correct?

Even those who have studied and know acncient Greek and Hebrew on here will often disagree on what a Greek or Hebrew word actually means, and if you research they are not alone.... so what makes you think Jimmy's men got it right? After all. There is no where in the four corners of God's Holy Words that says this is the one true translation.


The book of Enoch is not the voice of God for us.

WHY?

It was a voice that Jude thought quotable... from your KJV

Jude 1:

14And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
15To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.

You are not doing yourself a service by not at the very least reading those writings by people who are mentioned by name within the four corners of the bible.

Honestly, sometimes you put me in mind of the Catholics I have known over my life. After they got away from the minset that they should not read a bible, but listen only to their priests... ( hench the many I have known that never had a bible) they got into stating they could "ONLY" read the "Catholic " bible.  Why are they wrong and you are right? After all, they have the same 66 books we do, plus some we removed to make our Canon.

OKay,  I am gone....




Besides, those words above you quoted have absolutely nothing in common with what Peter said.

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Offline Bemark

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W.S spill the beans m8. Come on. I haven’t got a clue what you are on about.

I must admit you are truely puzzling .

But I can’t help,to be interested in your studied mind. You have always been a researcher in the word.

So can you please make it simple for the simple to understand. That’s ME

What do you mean it’s a story and not real. I’m not a guy who is trying to trick you. I just want to know stuff.

What Are you saying WS?

Offline RB

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What seems probable is a statement that says it is likely but not certain to be or become true or real; In otherwords.... may prove to be false.
Not necessarily~There are many things in the scriptures to even a mind of a regenerate heart, it may seem questionable, but seeing it is IN THE SCRIPTURES as being the truth, by faith we go with what we see in God's word knowing that it was indeed so. I could give a few examples~here's one for you......A man is in a whale's belly for three and three nights and survived and unharmed and and the Lord spake unto the great fish and he took Jonah to the shore and let him off! Our flesh and our new man may talk back and forth, YET we 100% go with our new man and believe God's word, believing it happened just a God has told us it did.
Quote from:  Rella on: Fri Oct 02, 2020 - 08:22:10
Herein lies a problem as it is by your admission, many times in the past, that you ONLY read the King James, which means you rely only on what his translators wrote.
Rella, let me correct you~I DO NOT go with the translators, I FULLY BELIEVE that God has kept his promises in preserving his word from the generation of evil and wicked men per Psalms 12.
Quote from: David
Psalms 12"Help, LORD; for the godly man ceaseth; for the faithful fail from among the children of men. They speak vanity every one with his neighbour: with flattering lips and with a double heart do they speak. The LORD shall cut off all flattering lips, and the tongue that speaketh proud things: Who have said, With our tongue will we prevail; our lips are our own: who is lord over us? For the oppression of the poor, for the sighing of the needy, now will I arise, saith the LORD; I will set him in safety from him that puffeth at him. The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times. Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever. The wicked walk on every side, when the vilest men are exalted."
Just as I said above:
Quote from: RB
In things questionable, I only follow that which I can read from the Holy Scriptures that God has preserved for us
I read where God has promised to keep and preserve from the generation of wicked men for ever and I fully believe he has in one of the oldest translations for the English speaking people of this world which I happen to be part of. I have many reasons as to why I only use and trust this translation but it is not what this tread's subject is about, but will give one quick point: All we have EVER had since Moses first gave the Israelites their scriptures ARE TRANSLATIONS~ and NO ONE in the OT ever questioned whether or not they had the very words of God, they like David, KNEW that God WOULD HIMSELF protect and preserve his word.
Quote from: Rella on: Fri Oct 02, 2020 - 08:22:10
Even those who have studied and know acncient Greek and Hebrew on here will often disagree on what a Greek or Hebrew word actually means, and if you research they are not alone.... so what makes you think Jimmy's men got it right? After all. There is no where in the four corners of God's Holy Words that says this is the one true translation.
Again, my trust is not in some man preserving God's word~God himself has given his OATH that he will. Also, there is NOT ONLY ONE correct~one for the English-speaking people and one for others tribes of this earth. I have said before, and so will I say this again: I have read much behind men like Luther ( who gave the German nation their bible ) and Calvin and when they quote scriptures IT IS NO DIFFERENT than if I was reading from my KJV, totally the same! Surprised? I'm not.
Quote from: Rella on: Fri Oct 02, 2020 - 08:22:10
WHY? It was a voice that Jude thought quotable... from your KJV Jude 1: 14And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, 15To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.
Just because Jude quoted Enoch does not mean that there is a part of the word of God missing that we should have, or even there was a book that Enoch wrote~it only proves that men wrote as they were MOVED BY THE HOLY GHOST, it was the Spirit of God that moved Jude to write this~he had hitherto had not known this truth!
Quote from: Rella on: Fri Oct 02, 2020 - 08:22:10
Honestly, sometimes you put me in mind of the Catholics I have known over my life. After they got away from the minset that they should not read a bible, but listen only to their priests... ( hench the many I have known that never had a bible) they got into stating they could "ONLY" read the "Catholic " bible.  Why are they wrong and you are right? After all, they have the same 66 books we do, plus some we removed to make our Canon.
You have a right to your opinion~but they are trusting in men just as you are doing~my faith is in God and his oath to perserve his word...."big" difference.   
« Last Edit: Sun Oct 04, 2020 - 05:55:56 by RB »

Offline 4WD

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You have a right to your opinion~but they are trusting in men just as you are doing~my faith is in God and his oath to perserve his word...."big" difference.
RB, your trusting in the KJV is not one wit less than another's trusting in any other translation.  There is no internal information or data in the Scriptures that proves the KJV is any better than any other. There are basically four grand fields of study of the Scriptures, the critical, the historical, the exegetical and the theological.  The field of critical study of the Scriptures is the study concerning the text and the canon of the Bible as a whole and concerning the authorship, occasion, date, design, destination, etc. of each separate book.  Even with the identification of four fundamental studies, in any one of those four the fact of the interrelation of the other three fields must not be overlooked.  And in point of fact, there is much more available today to base such studies on than was available when the King James Version was translated; the obvious errors in the King James translation signals that certainty.  There is absolutely no divine basis for any assurance that you are trusting in men any less than I am or than Rella is or than any one else is.
« Last Edit: Sun Oct 04, 2020 - 06:39:51 by 4WD »

Offline Bemark

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Translated by Man who had no spiritual experiences.

So 4 WD where is the picture book so I can look it up.

Was not it picture form ....maybe ot . But what about the NT

Where do you guys and girls get this stuff from?

Could you provide the book ....so I can look it up

Offline Bemark

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My mind is going numb

Offline 4WD

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Translated by Man who had no spiritual experiences.

So 4 WD where is the picture book so I can look it up.

Was not it picture form ....maybe ot . But what about the NT

Where do you guys and girls get this stuff from?

Could you provide the book ....so I can look it up
What are you talking about?

Offline GB

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[Chapter 54]

1 And I looked and turned to another part of the earth, and saw there a deep valley with burning 2 fire. And they brought the kings and the mighty, and began to cast them into this deep valley. 3 And there mine eyes saw how they made these their instruments, iron chains of immeasurable weight. 4 And I asked the angel of peace who went with me, saying: ' For whom are these chains being prepared ' And he said unto me: ' These are being prepared for the hosts of Azazel, so that they may take them and cast them into the abyss of complete condemnation, and they shall cover their jaws with rough stones as the Lord of Spirits commanded. 6 And Michael, Gabriel, Raphael, and Phanuel shall take hold of them on that great day, and cast them on that day into the burning furnace, that the Lord of Spirits may take vengeance on them for their unrighteousness in becoming subject to Satan and leading astray those who dwell on the earth.'

 ::whistle::

Here Here!!! And to keep us in remembrance of this yet to be fulfilled Prophesy of the Christ, we have the Last Great Day, the 8th day of the Feast of the Christ called Feast of Tabernacles, Feast of Booths. Today is the 3rd day.

Perfect scripture for Red WC.




Offline RB

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Here Here!!! And to keep us in remembrance of this yet to be fulfilled Prophesy of the Christ, we have the Last Great Day, the 8th day of the Feast of the Christ called Feast of Tabernacles, Feast of Booths. Today is the 3rd day.

Perfect scripture for Red WC.
Do you mean HEAR.....not here? Maybe you can enlighten me as to why it is a perfect scripture for Red.
« Last Edit: Sun Oct 04, 2020 - 08:49:27 by RB »

Offline 3 Resurrections

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RB, if you are interpreting Psalm 12:7 as being God’s oath to preserve His words, this is not the verse to use that proves that point.  We can go elsewhere for that. 

Ps. 12:7 is a promise to preserve the “poor and the needy” mentioned in Ps. 12:5, from “him that puffeth at him”.   Because the words of God are purified 7 times over, (proven to be pure in every one of the total 7 millennia of world history, as I believe), they can be relied on to prove God’s preservation forever of God’s people from the wicked of every generation.

We know this can’t be referring to an oath to preserve God’s words because of the masculine gender used in the Hebrew phrase “Thou shalt keep THEM” (or HIM), as most of the commentators agree.  But sadly, if you don’t want to give any regard to the original languages, then you miss out on this cherished promise of God to preserve the poor and the needy forever from the wicked of every generation.

But back to your topic of the disposition of the evil angels.  Jarrod’s excerpt of Enoch’s words need not be discarded, since that passage of Enoch agrees with the language of the prophets about the disposition of the evil angels.  Particularly Isaiah 24:21-23 and Zechariah 13:2.

If the book of Enoch excerpt claims that the evil angels would be cast into a “FURNACE OF FIRE”, and into “the abyss of complete condemnation” that’s exactly the term given to JERUSALEM’s location in Isaiah 31:9.  “...the Lord, whose FIRE is in Zion, and His FURNACE in Jerusalem.” 

From Matthew 13:49-50, we know that this “furnace of fire” in Jerusalem would be where the wicked were to be cast.  This location of judgment would be shared by the devil and his angels as well, according to Matthew 25:41. 

From Revelation 18:2, we know that “EVERY unclean spirit” without exception was going to be IMPRISONED inside the great city nicknamed “Babylon the great”, just as Isaiah  24:21-23 had prophesied long ago that they would be gathered together as “prisoners in a pit” inside Jerusalem.  Isaiah then prophesied that “after many days, they shall be FOUND WANTING”.  In Bible lingo, this means GONE. 

Your text in II Peter 2:4 compares three judgments of God that are examples of God completely annihilating those being judged; #1, Noah’s flood exterminating the entire world of the ungodly, #2, Sodom and Gomorrha’s entire populations turned to ashes, and included as a third example of complete annihilation...the entire demonic realm.

This fate of being tormented in the “great city” of Jerusalem before their final annihilation into ashes (as Ezekiel 28:18-19 predicted for Satan, the formerly “anointed cherub”) was the soon-approaching fate that the unclean spirits dreaded in Matthew 8:29. 

And we know that the imprisonment for the unclean spirits’ torment and annihilation in Jerusalem was soon to come in that first century.  That’s because Jesus said in Matthew 12:43-45 that “THIS wicked generation” He was then casting demons out of would experience the return in seven-fold numbers of the most wicked spirits plaguing them in their “last state”, which would be infinitely worse than their “first state” while He was among them.

We also know that the timing for the torment and then destruction of the entire Satanic realm would take place in that first century.  That’s because John told us at the very beginning and at the very end of Revelation (Rev.1:3 and 22:10) that the future prophesies he had revealed were “AT HAND”.

RB, you have yet to explain how you get around God’s own definition of what an “AT HAND” prophesy means, as God explains it in great detail in Ezekiel 12:21-28.  An “AT HAND” prophesy is not only SPOKEN, but it is also PERFORMED in the experience of those to whom that “at hand” prophesy is first given.  It is NOT “PROLONGED” into “TIMES THAT ARE FAR OFF”.

This “AT HAND” torment and destruction of the entire Satanic realm in the great city of Jerusalem took place soon in the experience of John’s readers - in THEIR days, according to the time limitations laid out in Ezekiel 12:21-28.

Offline Bemark

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What are you talking about?
about the translation errors? If I have understood you . Is there a book describing these errors in translation?




Offline RB

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RB, if you are interpreting Psalm 12:7 as being God’s oath to preserve His words, this is not the verse to use that proves that point.  We can go elsewhere for that. 
I beg to differ. I'm going to make this short since I just lost my post to you by hitting the wrong button~this day is not staring out the way I desire. Maybe I should be crying out "HELP Lord"!  ::smile:: It is not good getting old. I have you about 12 years or so. I'm amazed how well 4WD does as far as mental sharpness goes. Okay, let me try this again.

While I agree with you on the first part of this Psalm David added assurance to the righteous cry for HELP by promising them that he WOULD deliver them and then added to that promise saying whatever proceedeth out of his mouth are pure words that have been tested, and proven to be pure words seven times, meaning the totality of the many thousands of times men~ both righteous and wicked have tested his words and found out that if God promises something, then they SHOULD EXPECT fulfillment of them exactly as he has spoken.
Quote from: David
Psalms 12:5-7~"For the oppression of the poor, for the sighing of the needy, now will I arise, saith the LORD; I will set him in safety from him that puffeth at him. The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times. Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever."
The righteous cry out for help and in verse five God PROMISES them help by ASSURING them that HIS WORDS have been tested many times before and WITHOUT an exception have been fulfilled. In verse 7 God PROMISES to keep his word and shall PRESERVE them from this generation of wicked men. Verse 6 goes back to verse 5...verse 7 goes back to verse 6! I'm not alone in this understanding:   https://www.christianity.com/bible/commentary.php?com=spur&b=19&c=12  I gave Spurgeon's note since he had access to hundred's of commentaries on the Psalms of David and they ALL agree that Psalms 12, 6,7 has references to the words of God that comes out of his mouth! Above all, the flow of the context proves this.
Quote
RB, you have yet to explain how you get around God’s own definition of what an “AT HAND” prophesy mean
I may come back to your other thoughts later, but not now. To this statement of yours, I only say this~I HAVE responded to this not once but two or three times. In Revelation 1:1 and Revelation 22:5,6 where quickly and shortly are used, or AT HAND, I understand that NOT to means thousands and thousands of years but SHORTLY~two thousand years is NOTHING as far a time goes. All that is written in Revelation up until the FIANL Judgement in chapter twenty and the creating of the new earth and heavens chapter 21 will be done quickly and are INDEED at hand, meaning not in the distance of thousands of years. God uses words like quickly, shortly at hand so that his people would not think in terms of thousands of years, much less millions of years. AT HAND, and other such terms are spoken MORE FOR OUR faith God knowing our sinful frame of growing weary.  I do not consider two thousand years as very much time and neither should you. Just think how fast our short life is of seventy to eighty years~it is NOTHING. Quicker than a vapor and a tale that is told, etc. 

Later I will consider the rest of your post. RB
« Last Edit: Mon Oct 05, 2020 - 04:53:00 by RB »

Offline 3 Resurrections

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Hi RB,

I’m sorry about the lost post.  I really do hate that when I have done the same before.  It seems like such an irritating waste of my time, but I just have to consider that maybe God is editing my post for me. 

As for the “AT HAND” definition for prophesy, I have to strongly disagree with you that you have ever addressed this point FROM EZEKIEL 12:21-28.  You have never given me your response from reading THAT particular text.  God once said that “I am the Lord, I change not.”  That being the case, I have to believe that His own definition of what an “AT HAND” prophecy meant when speaking to Ezekiel is exactly the same way He meant for John (and us) to understand those parts of Revelation’s future prophetic visions that were “ABOUT TO BE HEREAFTER” (Rev. 1:19).

To extend the fulfillment of an “AT HAND” prophecy for 2,000 years and counting is to “prolong” that prophesy into “times that are far off”, which God told Ezekiel was definitely NOT the case.

If the words of an “AT HAND” prophecy spoken in John’s days were supposed to be “performed” at a time “in YOUR days” to John’s immediate audience reading that prophecy when it was first given to them, why wouldn’t the timing of that fulfillment have applied to those living in JOHN’s days? 

Your opinion of what “at hand” or “shortly” means, comparatively speaking, is NOT the way God expresses Himself in great detail in Ezekiel 12:21-28.  We ignore His own definition of His own terms at our peril.

I stand on God’s definition that Satan’s demise in the Lake of Fire along with the entire demonic realm was included in Revelation’s time brackets (Rev. 1:3 and 22:10) limiting the “AT HAND” fulfillment of this to JOHN’S DAYS - NOT “PROLONGED” into a time future to OUR days.

« Last Edit: Mon Oct 05, 2020 - 06:39:59 by 3 Resurrections »

Offline 4WD

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about the translation errors? If I have understood you . Is there a book describing these errors in translation?
I don't know if there are books for that; there probably are.  A google search brings up several.  Try the following:

http://www.wonderful1.com/Errors_in_the_KJV.html

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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W.S spill the beans m8. Come on. I haven’t got a clue what you are on about.

I must admit you are truely puzzling .

But I can’t help,to be interested in your studied mind. You have always been a researcher in the word.

So can you please make it simple for the simple to understand. That’s ME

What do you mean it’s a story and not real. I’m not a guy who is trying to trick you. I just want to know stuff.

What Are you saying WS?
RB & I had a similar conversation in another post, and you're coming into it at the middle, so I can see why that would be confusing.

I've made the point that the Bible sometimes quotes from other books that aren't in the Bible.  (In this case, 2nd Peter 2:4 makes reference to a story found outside the Bible... I have quoted it in part in my previous post).

RB feels that the Bible is complete unto itself, and that we should not need to look outside the Bible to figure out what it says.  Further, he feels that looking outside the Bible AT ALL is dangerous and something to avoid.  (Correct me if I'm wrong RB, I don't mean to speak for you.)

I think he's wrong about this.  When the Bible refers to other stories or books, I think it's necessary to read those other books in order to get a complete picture of what is going on, there.

So that's the argument in a nutshell.  There's a lot of debating other stuff that's tangential, but that's the thrust of it.

Jarrod

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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What part are you speaking of? I'm NOT trying to be a smart --- but truly am asking with all sincerity. Surely you are not saying that part of the Word of God is missing? Are you? Or, are you saying the book of Enoch is NOT what I'm not understanding? OR, both? If so, then you are right, for I do not seek truth outside of the 66 books that are called the word of God.
Can't you see the similarity between the bit I posted and 2nd Peter?  If you can't, you're having a reading comprehension problem.

I suspect that's because your reading of what I posted began with the step of throwing it on the ground and vigorously stomping up and down on it.

You can lead a dead horse to water, but you can't stop beating it until it drinks...  ::tippinghat::  ...or something like that.

Offline RB

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As for the “AT HAND” definition for prophesy, I have to strongly disagree with you that you have ever addressed this point FROM EZEKIEL 12:21-28.  You have never given me your response from reading THAT particular text.
You are right I have not, forgive me for that oversight, trust NOT intentional. But truly take this to another thread and let me come there~fair enough? RB

Offline RB

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RB feels that the Bible is complete unto itself, and that we should not need to look outside the Bible to figure out what it says.  Further, he feels that looking outside the Bible AT ALL is dangerous and something to avoid.  (Correct me if I'm wrong RB, I don't mean to speak for you.)
No harm done, you 100% presented my views.
Quote from: Wycliffes_Shillelagh on: Today at 06:52:03
Can't you see the similarity between the bit I posted and 2nd Peter?  If you can't, you're having a reading comprehension problem.

I suspect that's because your reading of what I posted began with the step of throwing it on the ground and vigorously stomping up and down on it.
Okay, You might have some truth in what you said~SO, in all honestly let me take TIME and see if there are some metaphors, and, or, a simile that I'm missing~reading it earlier I saw none.
Quote from: Wycliffes_Shillelagh on: Today at 06:52:03
You can lead a dead horse to water, but you can't stop beating it until it drinks
Not dead brother, just tired.

Offline Bemark

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RB & I had a similar conversation in another post, and you're coming into it at the middle, so I can see why that would be confusing.

I've made the point that the Bible sometimes quotes from other books that aren't in the Bible.  (In this case, 2nd Peter 2:4 makes reference to a story found outside the Bible... I have quoted it in part in my previous post).

RB feels that the Bible is complete unto itself, and that we should not need to look outside the Bible to figure out what it says.  Further, he feels that looking outside the Bible AT ALL is dangerous and something to avoid.  (Correct me if I'm wrong RB, I don't mean to speak for you.)
I think he's wrong about this.  When the Bible refers to other stories or books, I think it's necessary to read those other books in order to get a complete picture of what is going on, there.

So that's the argument in a nutshell.  There's a lot of debating other stuff that's tangential, but that's the thrust of it.

Jarrod
So much grace WS. Yeah I bumped in to try and understand 2 amazing teachers who I respect so much. You use big and little words at the right time FOR ALL to understand..... and in this ....how can I not love you . A sweet wine within the body of Christ. Uncapped ,in the right season so many can enjoy.

 

     
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