Author Topic: Trying the spirits whether they are of God~1st John 4:1  (Read 6409 times)

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Offline Michael2012

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Re: Trying the spirits whether they are of God~1st John 4:1
« Reply #630 on: Sun Apr 19, 2020 - 10:12:12 »
So once again Michael, I'm not misrepresenting anyone. I'm just removing the lipstick.

I'll leave that for the moderators to decide.

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Re: Trying the spirits whether they are of God~1st John 4:1
« Reply #630 on: Sun Apr 19, 2020 - 10:12:12 »

Online RB

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Re: Trying the spirits whether they are of God~1st John 4:1
« Reply #631 on: Mon Apr 20, 2020 - 08:44:05 »
I am not sure, if there is any other Bible version which uses the word "quickening", "quicken" or "quickeneth", except in the KJV.
Michael read this article and then tell me if this would help better explain "Quickeneing as you see it. By posting this DOES NOT mean I agree with everything said, but I DO agree with his overall understanding. I read this many, many years ago and thought this may help in what we are considering. You can read the whole book here on line: There are NO restrictions on using the article(s) as long as one uses it just as it was first written. Worldwide: please use the online downloads worldwide without charge. In North America: please write for a printed copy without charge.

https://www.biblesnet.com/Arthur%20W.%20%20Pink%20The%20Holy%20Spirit.pdf By A.W.Pink

                                                                                                       The Spirit Quickening 
We shall now confine ourselves to the initial operation of the Spirit within the elect of God. Different writers have employed the term “regeneration” with varying latitude: some restricting it unto a single act, others including the whole process by which one becomes a conscious child of God. This has hindered close accuracy of thought, and has introduced considerable confusion throughthe confounding of things which, though intimately related, are quite distinct. Not only has confusion of thought resulted from a loose use of terms, but serious divisions among professing saints have issued therefrom. We believe that much, if not all, of this would have been avoided had theologians discriminated more sharply and clearly between the principle of grace (spiritual life) which the Spirit first imparts unto the soul, and His consequent stirrings of that principle into exercise.

                                                                                  Quickening Is the Initial Operation of the Spirit
In earlier years we did not ourselves perceive the distinction which is pointed by John 6:63 and 1 Peter 1:23: the former referring unto the initial act of the Spirit in “quickening” the spiritually-dead soul, the latter having in view the consequent “birth” of the same. While it is freely allowed that the origin of the “new creature” is shrouded in impenetrable mystery, yet of this we may be certain, that life precedes birth. There is a strict analogy between the natural birth and the spiritual: necessarily so, for God is the Author of them both, and He ordained that the former should adumbrate the latter. Birth is neither the cause nor the beginning of life itself: rather is it the manifestation of a life already existent: there had been a Divine “quickening” before the child could issue from the womb. In like manner, the Holy Spirit “quickens” the soul, or imparts spiritual life to it, before its possessor is “brought forth” (as James 1:18 is rightly rendered in the R.V.) and “born again” by the Word of God (1 Peter 1:23). James 1:18, 1 Peter 1:23, and parallel passages, refer not to the original communication of spiritual life to the soul, but rather to our being enabled to act from that life and induced to love and obey God by means of the Word of Truth—which presupposes a principle of grace already planted in the heart. In His work of illumination, conviction, conversion, and sanctification, the Spirit uses the Word as the means thereto, but in His initial work of “quickening” He employs no means, operating immediately or directly upon the soul. First there is a “new creation” (2 Cor. 5:17; Eph. 2:10), and then the “new creature” is stirred into exercise.
Faith and all other graces are wrought in us by the Spirit through the instrumentality of the Word, but not so with the principle of life and grace from which these graces proceed.

                                                                                                Quickening Imparts Life
In His work of “quickening,” by which we mean the impartation of spiritual life to the soul, the Spirit acts immediately from within, and not by applying something from without. Quickening is a direct operation of the Spirit without the use of any  instrument: the Word is used by Him afterwards to call into exercise the life then communicated. “Regeneration is a direct operation of the Holy Spirit upon the human spirit. It is the action of Spirit upon spirit, of a Divine Person upon a human person, whereby spiritual life is imparted. Nothing, therefore, of the nature of means or instruments can come between the Holy Spirit and the soul that is made alive. God did not employ an instrument or means when He infused physical life into the body of Adam. There were only two factors: the dust of the ground and the creative power of God which vivified that dust. The Divine omnipotence and dead matter were brought into direct contact, with nothing interposing. The dust was not a means or instrument by which God originated life. So in regeneration there are only two factors: the human soul destitute of spiritual life, and the Holy Spirit who quickens it. “The Word and Truth of God, the most important of all the means of grace, is not a means of regeneration, as distinct from conviction, conversion and sanctification. This is evident when we remember that it is the office of a means or instrument to excite or stimulate an already existing principle of life. Physical food is a means of physical growth, but it supposes physical vitality. If the body is dead, bread cannot be a means or instrument. Intellectual truth is a means of intellectual growth, but it supposes
intellectual vitality. If the mind be idiotic, secular knowledge cannot be a means or instrument. Spiritual truth is a means of spiritual growth, in case there be spiritual vitality. But if the mind be dead to righteousness, spiritual truth cannot be a means or instrument. “The unenlightened understanding is unable to apprehend, and the unregenerate will is unable to believe. Vital force is lacking in these two principal factors. What is needed at this point is life and force itself. Consequently, the Author of spiritual life Himself must operate directly, without the use of means or instruments; and outright give spiritual life and power from the dead: that is, exnihilo. The new life is not imparted because man perceives the truth, but he perceives the truth because the new life is imparted. A man is not regenerated because he has first believed in Christ, but he believes in Christ because he has been regenerated” (W. T. Shedd, Presbyterian, 1889).

                                                                                   First the Work of the Spirit, Then the Word
Under the guise of honoring the written word, many have (no doubt unwittingly) dishonored the Holy Spirit. The idea which seems to prevail in “orthodox” circles today is that all which is needed for the salvation of souls is to give out the Word in its purity, God being pledged to bless the same. How often we have heard it said, “The Word will do its own work.” Many suppose that the Scriptures are quite sufficient of themselves to communicate light to those in darkness and life to those who are dead in
sins. But the record which we have of Christ’s life ought at once to correct such a view. Who preached the Word as faithfully as He, yet how very few were saved during His three and a half years’ ministry?! The parable of the Sower exposes the fallacy of the theory now so widely prevailing. The “seed” sown is the Word. It was scattered upon various kinds of ground, yet notwithstanding the purity and vitality of the seed, where the soil was unfavorable, no increase issued therefrom. Until the ground was made good, the seed yielded no increase. That seed might be watered by copious showers and warmed by a genial sum, but while the soil was bad there could be no harvest. The ground must be changed before it could be fertile. Nor is it the seed which changes the soil: what farmer would ever think of saying, The seed will change the soil! Make no mistake upon this point: the Holy Spirit must first quicken the dead soul into newness of life before the Word obtains any entrance. To say that life is communicated to the soul by the Spirit’s application of the Word, and then to affirm that it is the principle of life which gives efficacy to the Word, is but to reason in a circle. The Word cannot profit any soul spiritually until it be “mixed with faith” (Heb. 4:2), and faith cannot be put forth unless it proceeds from a principle of life and grace; and therefore that principle of life is not produced by it. We might as well suppose that the presenting of a picture to a man who is blind can enable him to see, as we can suppose that the presenting of the Word in an objective way is the instrument whereby God produces the internal principle by which we are enabled to embrace it” (Thomas Ridgley, Presbyterian, 1730—quoted by us to show we are not here inculcating some new doctrine.) Yet notwithstanding what has been pointed out above, many are still likely to insist upon the quickening power which inheres in the Word itself, reminding us that its voice is that of the Almighty. This we freely and fully acknowledge, but do not all the unregenerate resist, and refuse to heed that Voice? How, then, is that opposition to be removed? Take an illustration. Suppose the
window of my room is darkened by an iron wall before it. The sun’s beams beat upon it, but still the wall remains. Were it of ice, it would melt away, but the nature of iron is to harden and not soften under the influence of heat. How, then, is the sun to enter my room? Only by removing that wall: a direct power must be put forth for its destruction. In like manner, the deadly enmity of the sinner must be removed by the immediate operation of the Spirit, communicating life, before the Word enters and affects him. “The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light. But if thine eye be evil, thy whole body shall be full of darkness” (Matt. 7:22, 23). By the “eye” is not here meant the mind only, but the disposition of the heart (cf. Mark 7:22). Here Christ tells us in what man’s blindness consists, namely, the evil disposition of his heart, and that the only way to remove the darkness, and let in the light, is to change the heart. An “evil eye” is not cured or its darkness removed merely by casting light upon it, any more than the rays of the sun communicate sight unto one whose visive faculty is dead. The eye must be cured, made “single,” and then it is capable of receiving the light. “It is said the Lord opened the heart of Lydia, that she attended unto the things that were spoken by Paul (Acts 16:14). It would be a contradiction, and very absurd, to say that God’s Word spoken by Paul was that by which her heart was opened; for she knew not what he did speak, until her heart was opened to attend to his words and understand them. Her heart was first opened in order for his words to have any effect or give any light to her. And this must be done by an immediate operation of the Spirit of God on  her heart. This was the regeneration now under consideration, by which her heart was renewed, and formed unto true discerning like the single eye” (Samuel Hopkins, 1792). The soul, then, is quickened into newness of life by the direct and supernatural operation of the Spirit, without any medium or means whatever. It is not accomplished by the light of the Word, for it is His very imparting of life which fits the heart to receive the light. This initial work of the Spirit is absolutely indispensable in order to have spiritual illumination. It is depravity or corruption of heart which holds the mind in darkness, and it is in this that unregeneracy consists. It is just as absurd to speak of illumination being conveyed by the Word in order to have a change of heart, or the giving of a relish for spiritual things, as itwould be to speak of giving the capacity to a man to taste the sweetness of honey while he was devoid of a palate. No, men are not “quickened” by the Word, they must be quickened in order to receive and understand the Word. “And I will give them a heart to know me, that I am the LORD; and they shall be My people, and I will be their God” (Jer. 24:7): that statement would be quite meaningless if a saving knowledge of or experimental acquaintance with God were obtained through the Word previous to the “new heart” or spiritual life being given, and was the means of our being quickened. “The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge” (Prov. 1:7); the “fear of the Lord” or Divine grace communicated to the heart (spiritual life imparted) alone lays the foundation for spiritual knowledge and activities.

                                                                                              Characteristics of Quickening

“For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth, even so the Son quickeneth whom He will” (John 5:21); “It is the Spirit that quickeneth: the flesh profiteth nothing” (John 6:63). All the Divine operations in the economy of salvation proceed from the Father, are through the Son, and are executed by the Spirit. Quickening is His initial work in the elect. It is that supernatural act by which He brings them out of the grave of spiritual death on to resurrection ground. By it He imparts a principle of grace and habit of holiness; it is the communication of the life of God to the soul. It is an act of creation (2 Cor. 5:17). It is a Divine “workmanship” (Eph. 2:10). All of these terms denote an act of Omnipotency. The origination of life is utterly impossible to the creature. He can receive life; he can nourish life; he can use and exert it; but he cannot create life. In this work the Spirit acts as sovereign. “The wind bloweth where it listeth (or “pleaseth”) ... so is everyone that is born of the Spirit” (John 3:8). This does not mean that He acts capriciously, or without reason and motive, but that He is above any obligation to the creature, and is quite uninfluenced by us in what He does. The Spirit might justly have left everyone of us in the hardness of our hearts to perish forever. In quickening one and not another, in bringing a few from death unto life and leaving the mass still dead in trespasses and sins, the Spirit has mercy “on whom He will have mercy.” He is absolutely free to work in whom He pleases,
for none of the fallen sons of Adam have the slightest claim upon Him. The quickening of the spiritually dead into newness of life is therefore an act of amazing grace: it is an unsought and unmerited favor. The sinner, who is the chosen subject of this Divine operation and object of this inestimable blessing, is infinitely illdeserving in himself, being thoroughly disposed to go on in wickedness till this change is wrought in him. He is rebellious, and will not hearken to the Divine command; he is obstinate and refuses to repent and embrace the Gospel. However terrified he may be with the fears of threatened doom, however earnest may be his desire to escape misery and be happy forever, no matter how many prayers he may make and things he may do, he has not the least inclination to repent and submit to God. His heart is defiant, full of enmity against God, and daily does he add iniquity unto iniquity. For the Spirit to give a new heart unto such an one is indeed an act of amazing and sovereign grace.
This quickening by the Spirit is instantaneous: it is a Divine act, and not a process; it is wrought at once, and not gradually. In a moment of time the soul passes from death unto life. The soul which before was dead toward God, is now alive to Him. The soul which was completely under the domination of sin, is now set free; though the sinful nature itself is not removed nor rendered inoperative, yet the heart is no longer en rapport (in sympathy) with it. The Spirit of God finds the heart wholly corrupt and desperately wicked, but by a miracle of grace He changes its bent, and this by implanting within it the imperishable seed of holiness. There is no medium between a carnal and a spiritual state: the one is what we were by nature, the other is what we become by grace, by the instantaneous and invincible operation of the Almighty Spirit. This initial work of quickening is entirely unperceived by us, for it lies outside the realm and the range of human consciousness. Those who are dead possess no perception, and though the work of bringing them on to resurrection ground is indeed a great and powerful one, in the very nature of the case its subjects can know nothing whatever about it until after it has been accomplished. When Adam was created, he was conscious of nothing but that he now existed and was free to act: the Divine operation which was the cause of his existence was over and finished before he began to be conscious of anything. This initial operation of the Spirit by
which the elect become new creatures can only be known by its effects and consequences. “The wind bloweth where it listeth,” that is first; then “thou hearest the sound thereof” (John 3:8): it is now made known, in a variety of ways, to the conscience and understanding. Under this work of quickening we are entirely passive, by which is meant that there is no co-operation whatever between the will of the sinner and the act of the Holy Spirit. As we have said, this initial work of the Spirit is effected by free and sovereign grace, consisting of the infusion of a principle of spiritual life into the soul, by which all its faculties are supernaturally renovated. This being the case, the sinner must be entirely passive, like clay in the hands of a potter, for until Divine grace is exerted upon him he is utterly incapable of any spiritual acts, being dead in trespasses and sins. Lazarus co-operated not in his resurrection: he knew not that the Savior had come to his sepulcher to deliver him from death. Such is the case with each of God’s elect when the Spirit commences to deal with them. They must first be quickened into newness of life before they can have the slightest desire or motion of the will toward spiritual things; hence, for them to contribute the smallest iota unto their quickening is utterly impossible.  The life which the Spirit imparts when He quickens is uniform in all its favored subjects. “As seed virtually contains in it all that afterwards proceeds from it, the blade, stalk, ear, and full corn in the ear, so the first principle of grace implanted in the heart seminally contains all the grace which afterwards appears in all the fruits, effects, acts, and exercises of it” (John Gill). Each
quickened person experiences the same radical change, by which the image of God is stamped upon the soul: “that which is born of the Spirit is spirit” (John 3:6), never anything less, and never anything more. Each quickened person is made a new creature in Christ, and possesses all the constituent parts of “the new man.” Later, some may be more lively and vigorous, as God gives stronger faith unto one than to another; yet there is no difference in their original: all partake of the same life. While there is great variety in our perception and understanding of the work of the Spirit within us, there is no difference in the initial work itself. While there is much difference in the carrying on of this work unto perfection in the growth of the “new creature”—some making speedy progress, others thriving slowly and bringing forth little fruit—yet the new creation itself is the same in all. Each alike enters the kingdom of God, becomes a vital member of Christ’s mystical body, is given a place in the living family of God. Later, one may appear more beautiful than another, by having the image of his heavenly Father more evidently imprinted upon him, yet not more truly so. There are degrees in sanctification, but none in vivification. There has never been but one kind of spiritual quickening in this world, being in its essential nature specifically the same in all.

                                                                                                      Only the Beginning
Let it be pointed out in conclusion that the Spirit’s quickening is only the beginning of God’s work of grace in the soul. This does not wholly renew the heart at once: no indeed, the inner man needs to be “renewed day by day” (2 Cor. 4:16). But from that small beginning, the work continues—God watering it “every moment” (Isa. 27:3)—and goes on to perfection; that is, till the heart is made perfectly clean and holy, which is not accomplished till death. God continues to work in His elect, “both to will and to do of His good pleasure,” they being as completely dependent upon the Spirit’s influence for every right exercise of the will after, as for the first. “Being confident of this very thing, that He which bath begun a good work within you will finish it until the day of Jesus Christ” (Phil. 1:6).
« Last Edit: Mon Apr 20, 2020 - 08:51:06 by RB »

Offline Michael2012

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Re: Trying the spirits whether they are of God~1st John 4:1
« Reply #632 on: Mon Apr 20, 2020 - 09:29:18 »
Michael read this article and then tell me if this would help better explain "Quickeneing as you see it.

While I read it, I'd like to hear your comments on the passage:

John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

By the way, I will only be reading that which is in your post. I will not be reading the whole of the book in the link. I avoid reading a whole book like that which covers more than the subject of our discussion and would just have me confused and out of focus.
« Last Edit: Mon Apr 20, 2020 - 10:40:50 by Michael2012 »

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Re: Trying the spirits whether they are of God~1st John 4:1
« Reply #632 on: Mon Apr 20, 2020 - 09:29:18 »

Offline Michael2012

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Re: Trying the spirits whether they are of God~1st John 4:1
« Reply #633 on: Mon Apr 20, 2020 - 11:08:22 »
RB, after reading your post, here's a list of what I agree with the writing, but only those related to our subject of discussion, that is, "quickening".

1. Quickening imparts life.
2. Quickening is that supernatural act by which God brings them out of the grave of spiritual death on to resurrection ground.
3. This quickening by the Spirit is instantaneous: it is a Divine act, and not a process; it is wrought at once, and not gradually.
4. Quickening is entirely unperceived by us, for it lies outside the realm and the range of human consciousness.
5. Quickening is only the beginning of God’s work of grace in the soul.

There are a number of things written there in your post which I don't agree. But I did not comment on them just so we can stay focused on the matter of "quickening", and perhaps can move on with them after.
« Last Edit: Mon Apr 20, 2020 - 13:19:43 by Michael2012 »

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Re: Trying the spirits whether they are of God~1st John 4:1
« Reply #633 on: Mon Apr 20, 2020 - 11:08:22 »
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Offline johntwayne

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Re: Trying the spirits whether they are of God~1st John 4:1
« Reply #634 on: Mon Apr 20, 2020 - 13:25:10 »
John 1:1  In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
John 1:2  He was in the beginning with God.

John 1:14  And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth.


+1 for this

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Re: Trying the spirits whether they are of God~1st John 4:1
« Reply #634 on: Mon Apr 20, 2020 - 13:25:10 »



Online RB

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Re: Trying the spirits whether they are of God~1st John 4:1
« Reply #635 on: Mon Apr 20, 2020 - 16:05:09 »
RB, after reading your post, here's a list of what I agree with the writing, but only those related to our subject of discussion, that is, "quickening".

1. Quickening imparts life.
2. Quickening is that supernatural act by which God brings them out of the grave of spiritual death on to resurrection ground.
3. This quickening by the Spirit is instantaneous: it is a Divine act, and not a process; it is wrought at once, and not gradually.
4. Quickening is entirely unperceived by us, for it lies outside the realm and the range of human consciousness.
5. Quickening is only the beginning of God’s work of grace in the soul.
Agreed.
Quote from: Michael2012  Michael2012 on: Today at 09:29:18
There are a number of things written there in your post which I don't agree. But I did not comment on them just so we can stay focused on the matter of "quickening", and perhaps can move on with them after.
Same here, but overall he did well.

I will post in the morning on John 6:63 a favorite verse of many, yet few understand the scripture~but is FULLY is understood WITHIN the context of John 6.

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Re: Trying the spirits whether they are of God~1st John 4:1
« Reply #635 on: Mon Apr 20, 2020 - 16:05:09 »

Online RB

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Re: Trying the spirits whether they are of God~1st John 4:1
« Reply #636 on: Tue Apr 21, 2020 - 05:17:11 »
While I read it, I'd like to hear your comments on the passage: John 6:63~"It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life."
John chapter six has so many doctrines taught therein that the Christian faith is built upon, so many, yet we shall confine our attention to John 6:63 which is the SUM of Jesus' teaching from verse 26 to the end of the chapter.
Quote from: JESUS CHRIST
John 6:63~"It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life."

"It is the spirit that quickeneth"~We all should know what quickening is~ It is the giving of life to a thing previously dead. The N.T. speaks of the quick (living) and the dead (2nd Timothy 4:1; Ist Peter 4:5).

Quickening is what happens to dead bodies when resurrected (Rom 8:11). Dead sinners are quickened to life by God's power alone. ( See and consider: Ephesians 1:17 – 2:1). Yet, Paul told the same church that they needed to come to life (Ephesains 5:14). Yet, David wrote about God quickening him by scripture (Psalms 119:25,159).

Is the spirit here the regenerate spirit of a child of God or the Spirit of God? Is it born again men having perception quickened by their regenerated spirit? The lower case ‘s’ does not prove anything; we must prove by context, which is our Lord and Master (in one true sense) in understanding scriptures. (Numbers 24:2; Job 26:13; Isaiah 11:2; 40:7; 42:1; 44:3; Ezekiel 36:27; Joel 2:28; Psalms 104:30; Romans 1:4; Ist Corinthians 2:12; Ephesians 1:17; Ist Peter 4:14).

The relationship of spirit and quickening here is one of active performance, which precludes our regenerate spirit, for our spirit does not truly quicken. Our spirit does not quicken or make alive, but our spirit is quickened or made alive by God’s Spirit, the difference of active or passive voice verbs.

The spirit here is the Holy Spirit~the human spirit is worthless at resurrecting...or as Jesus said profiteth nothing.

The quickening here is regeneration~giving spiritual life to spiritually dead. We have learned this clearly by John in his gospel already (John 3:3,5,8).
The contrast with the flesh is a doctrine John already revealed (John 1:13; 3:6).

Without this divine gift, proof of Christ’s person or doctrine is unperceived. The renewing of men to see and think differently is by the Spirit (Titus 3:5). We compare (because Jesus DID) and conclude this Spirit quickening is divine drawing (John 6:44,65). The context indicates verse 65 is given as further explanation for verse 63. The difference among men given so far is salvation, not blindness (6:37-40). The work at hand (6:65) explaining the paradox is God acting/operating … not the regenerate soul of man acting/operating within him. God must reveal Himself to men to save them from ignorance and rebellion. This is CLEARLY seen in Jesus' discourse with the blinded Jews.

Jesus explained this about those hearing and rejecting (Matthew 11:25-27). Jesus explained this about Peter’s confession of Jesus Christ (Matthew 16:16-17).

"The flesh profiteth nothing"~The flesh here is man’s natural ability or affection toward spiritual truth~none! THAT HEED GB and all others who believe man IN THE FLESH apart from the indwelling Spirit of God can profit himself and please God in order to be accepted by him.

It is the wicked principle of spiritual death since Adam (Genesis 2:17; 3:6). Human intelligence from birth rebelliously denies spiritual truth (Ephesians 2:1-3). Men by nature are dead to things of God, even from the Spirit (Ist Corinthians 2:14). Men are at enmity against God and any laws He gives (Rom 8:7-8; 1:18-32). A man not of God, not born of God, cannot see or hear Jesus (John 3:3; 8:43,47). No demonstration or evangelistic means can improve or convince men. Lazarus returning from the dead could not help more than Bible (Luke 16:31). Total depravity is a key doctrine to explain why the gospel affects so few. Jesus believed in man's total depravity and taught the same Human birth leaves us dead like father Adam without any spiritual ability. David and Paul taught men have no understanding (Psalms 14:1-3; Romans 3:10-12). Jesus ascending would not profit anything in turning these men to truly believe.

"The words that I speak unto you"~What they had found hard and offensive was so due to their own depravity. Jesus doctrine and preaching in 6:26-62 were spiritual for only spiritual men. Jesus preaching and doctrine was no different than Paul’s (Ist Corinthians 1:18-31; 2:1-5).

"They are spirit"~The words were not the Spirit; He is the Personal Presence of God Himself. They were not spirit in the sense of the invisible part of man as ghost or soul. Rather, the words were spiritual in their content and needed comprehension.

"And they are life"~The words themselves were not life. They did not give life, thus dead hearers. The words themselves were not alive but rather audio sounds for hearing truth. Rather, they were about eternal life in their content and needed comprehension. Peter will identify this fact shortly … thou hast the words of eternal life (6:68).

« Last Edit: Tue Apr 21, 2020 - 08:16:48 by RB »

Offline Michael2012

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Re: Trying the spirits whether they are of God~1st John 4:1
« Reply #637 on: Tue Apr 21, 2020 - 10:50:58 »
John chapter six has so many doctrines taught therein that the Christian faith is built upon, so many, yet we shall confine our attention to John 6:63 which is the SUM of Jesus' teaching from verse 26 to the end of the chapter.
"It is the spirit that quickeneth"~We all should know what quickening is~ It is the giving of life to a thing previously dead.The N.T. speaks of the quick (living) and the dead (2nd Timothy 4:1; Ist Peter 4:5).

Quickening is what happens to dead bodies when resurrected (Rom 8:11). Dead sinners are quickened to life by God's power alone. ( See and consider: Ephesians 1:17 – 2:1). Yet, Paul told the same church that they needed to come to life (Ephesains 5:14). Yet, David wrote about God quickening him by scripture (Psalms 119:25,159).

Is the spirit here the regenerate spirit of a child of God or the Spirit of God? Is it born again men having perception quickened by their regenerated spirit? The lower case ‘s’ does not prove anything; [uwe must prove by context, which is our Lord and Master (in one true sense) in understanding scriptures. ][/u] (Numbers 24:2; Job 26:13; Isaiah 11:2; 40:7; 42:1; 44:3; Ezekiel 36:27; Joel 2:28; Psalms 104:30; Romans 1:4; Ist Corinthians 2:12; Ephesians 1:17; Ist Peter 4:14).

The relationship of spirit and quickening here is one of active performance, which precludes our regenerate spirit, for our spirit does not truly quicken. Our spirit does not quicken or make alive, but our spirit is quickened or made alive by God’s Spirit, the difference of active or passive voice verbs.

The spirit here is the Holy Spirit~the human spirit is worthless at resurrecting...or as Jesus said profiteth nothing.

The quickening here is regeneration~giving spiritual life to spiritually dead. We have learned this clearly by John in his gospel already (John 3:3,5,8).
The contrast with the flesh is a doctrine John already revealed (John 1:13; 3:6).

Without this divine gift, proof of Christ’s person or doctrine is unperceived. The renewing of men to see and think differently is by the Spirit (Titus 3:5). We compare (because Jesus DID) and conclude this Spirit quickening is divine drawing (John 6:44,65). The context indicates verse 65 is given as further explanation for verse 63. The difference among men given so far is salvation, not blindness (6:37-40). The work at hand (6:65) explaining the paradox is God acting/operating … not the regenerate soul of man acting/operating within him. God must reveal Himself to men to save them from ignorance and rebellion. This is CLEARLY seen in Jesus' discourse with the blinded Jews.

Jesus explained this about those hearing and rejecting (Matthew 11:25-27). Jesus explained this about Peter’s confession of Jesus Christ (Matthew 16:16-17).

"The flesh profiteth nothing"~The flesh here is man’s natural ability or affection toward spiritual truth~none! THAT HEED GB and all others who believe man IN THE FLESH apart from the indwelling Spirit of God can profit himself and please God in order to be accepted by him.

It is the wicked principle of spiritual death since Adam (Genesis 2:17; 3:6). Human intelligence from birth rebelliously denies spiritual truth (Ephesians 2:1-3). Men by nature are dead to things of God, even from the Spirit (Ist Corinthians 2:14). Men are at enmity against God and any laws He gives (Rom 8:7-8; 1:18-32). A man not of God, not born of God, cannot see or hear Jesus (John 3:3; 8:43,47). No demonstration or evangelistic means can improve or convince men. Lazarus returning from the dead could not help more than Bible (Luke 16:31). Total depravity is a key doctrine to explain why the gospel affects so few. Jesus believed in man's total depravity and taught the same Human birth leaves us dead like father Adam without any spiritual ability. David and Paul taught men have no understanding (Psalms 14:1-3; Romans 3:10-12). Jesus ascending would not profit anything in turning these men to truly believe.

"The words that I speak unto you"~What they had found hard and offensive was so due to their own depravity. Jesus doctrine and preaching in 6:26-62 were spiritual for only spiritual men. Jesus preaching and doctrine was no different than Paul’s (Ist Corinthians 1:18-31; 2:1-5).

"They are spirit"~The words were not the Spirit; He is the Personal Presence of God Himself. They were not spirit in the sense of the invisible part of man as ghost or soul. Rather, the words were spiritual in their content and needed comprehension.

"And they are life"~The words themselves were not life. They did not give life, thus dead hearers. The words themselves were not alive but rather audio sounds for hearing truth. Rather, they were about eternal life in their content and needed comprehension. Peter will identify this fact shortly … thou hast the words of eternal life (6:68).

John 6:63~"It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life."

I don't think that Jesus here speaks of spirit as to refer to any spirit being, such as the Holy Spirit, Jesus as well does not here speaks of the flesh as to refer to man. This is made clearer when Jesus said "the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit". As to how Jesus came to say this, let me take you back to what was happening then.

26 Jesus answered them and said, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Ye seek me, not because ye saw the miracles, but because ye did eat of the loaves, and were filled. 27 Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.


Jesus knew that why they labor to seek Him is for food (bread), that is, material food (bread), which perish. He told them that what they should labor for should not be that, and should labor instead for food (bread) that endures to everlasting life. 

And so the conversation went on, with Jesus telling them that He is the living bread which came down from heaven. He told them further saying "This bread is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world." and "Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you. Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day. For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him." And to which they said "This is an hard saying; who can hear it?"
 
Now, what happened next?

61 When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you? 62 What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?

Evidently Jesus spoke these words to a large group of His followers that included the Twelve. He had told them that He had come down from heaven (v. 38) and what He said until verse 58 had scandalized them and many of them stumbled. For they could not believe their ears, because to them, it was irrational and was a hard saying. How could they believe His words? We find Jesus ask this question "What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?". That is to ask them if they would believe Him if they see Him ascend to heaven. To which of course is to be understood that they would then believe, for then, they will see with their eyes. But even still, such statement of Jesus was only to further make His point. That, they simply could not believe, for they perceive and believe with and in their flesh, and rely on their human senses and reasoning, their carnal mind, which could only perceive the things of the flesh or of material things, and not of spiritual or of heavenly things.

It is at this point that Jesus said to them "It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life."

My understanding is that, Jesus by this, was telling them that He was not talking about earthly things but of heavenly things, such as are of the spirit or spiritual, not of the flesh or material. For, He pointed out, that it is the spirit that quickeneth, or that gives life, as such, not the material (flesh). What life really is, is not really of the physical or material, but is spiritual or is of the spirit. And He told them that His words are spirit, that is, not only spiritual, but indeed are life. That is to say, that His words can quicken and quickeneth for they are life. And truly, God's words are powerful, so powerful that by it, all creation was directly created, all creatures were given life, and all of creation are sustained. 

So, in my understanding, John 6:63 is not at all talking about regeneration nor being born again or born from above.

Now, I just like to add this matter concerning Jesus Christ, Him being the bread of life, and that His words are life. The people made reference to the manna in the wilderness, the bread from heaven which God gave them to eat. Apparently, these people had not read from scriptures the following passage:

Deuteronomy 8:3 So He humbled you, allowed you to hunger, and fed you with manna which you did not know nor did your fathers know, that He might make you know that man shall not live by bread alone; but man lives by every word that proceeds from the mouth of the Lord.

When Jesus was in the wilderness, having not eaten for forty days, and he was hungry, being tempted by the devil saying "If thou be the Son of God, command that these stones be made bread.". This is what Jesus told the devil "It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.", referring exactly to those very scriptures in Deuteronomy. The devil, upon hearing that, did not go on tempt Jesus to turn the stones into bread. As to why, I could only ponder about.

Those scriptures speaks of the same thing that Jesus was telling them in John 6, when He told them that He is the "bread" from heaven and that His words are spirit and are life. It's a pity that the Israelites apparently had not learned from Deut. 8:3, as also their fathers did not know nor did learn from their experience in their 40 years in the wilderness, that man does not live by bread alone, but man lives by every word that comes from the mouth of the Lord. Had they heard and learned, they would had understood what Jesus was telling them about Himself and believed.

I always ask myself, how can the fathers of Israel not learn from that 40 year experience in the wilderness? How can the Israelites not learn from their scriptures what is clearly and plainly told in Deut. 8:3? 

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Re: Trying the spirits whether they are of God~1st John 4:1
« Reply #638 on: Tue Apr 21, 2020 - 13:36:50 »
Michael, I quickly went over this post by you but must do so in the morning when I have my quiet time. It is kinda confusing not still sure what you mean by this:
Quote
My understanding is that, Jesus by this, was telling them that He was not talking about earthly things but of heavenly things, such as are of the spirit or spiritual, not of the flesh or material. For, He pointed out, that it is the spirit that quickeneth, or that gives life, as such, not the material (flesh). What life really is, is not really of the physical or material, but is spiritual or is of the spirit. And He told them that His words are spirit, that is, not only spiritual, but indeed are life. That is to say, that His words can quicken and quickeneth for they are life. And truly, God's words are powerful, so powerful that by it, all creation was directly created, all creatures were given life, and all of creation is sustained.
Maybe you can be MORE CONCISE in explaining your use of phrases with EXAMPLES before I respond back.

Are you saying that the word of God can GIVE spiritual life? Or, believing them is the manner in which those born of God prove they have eternal life~OR, the word of God is the SOURCE of eternal life and those that have life seek ONLY to live off of the word of God above the material things of this life? But, in this sense how can it be said that they quicken other than as David use it in the Psalms as I noted above ye to you to which you said nothing about that, so I'm trying to ponder what you are saying. Maybe with more time in the morning, I can see clearly YOUR POINT that you desire to make~and maybe you did, maybe it is me, if so, a little rest goes a long way in helping our minds to think clearly.

Time is short with me~Again I'm on the move and truly MUST reread your post and THEN answer after some serious effort is put into considering what you are saying. I just want to make sure I'm properly following your thoughts. 
« Last Edit: Tue Apr 21, 2020 - 13:42:14 by RB »

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Re: Trying the spirits whether they are of God~1st John 4:1
« Reply #638 on: Tue Apr 21, 2020 - 13:36:50 »

Offline Michael2012

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Re: Trying the spirits whether they are of God~1st John 4:1
« Reply #639 on: Tue Apr 21, 2020 - 18:13:28 »
Michael, I quickly went over this post by you but must do so in the morning when I have my quiet time. It is kinda confusing not still sure what you mean by this:

Quote
My understanding is that, Jesus by this, was telling them that He was not talking about earthly things but of heavenly things, such as are of the spirit or spiritual, not of the flesh or material. For, He pointed out, that it is the spirit that quickeneth, or that gives life, as such, not the material (flesh). What life really is, is not really of the physical or material, but is spiritual or is of the spirit. And He told them that His words are spirit, that is, not only spiritual, but indeed are life. That is to say, that His words can quicken and quickeneth for they are life. And truly, God's words are powerful, so powerful that by it, all creation was directly created, all creatures were given life, and all of creation is sustained.
Maybe you can be MORE CONCISE in explaining your use of phrases with EXAMPLES before I respond back.

Let me try to say some words to somehow clarify my statements there.

  • He was not talking about earthly things but of heavenly things, such as are of the spirit or spiritual, not of the flesh or material. ~ Jesus was talking about spiritual things or things pertaining to the spiritual realm and not of things that pertains to the material realm. It seems I could not say it any other way.
  • For, He pointed out, that it is the spirit that quickeneth, or that gives life, as such, not the material (flesh). What life really is, is not really of the physical or material, but is spiritual or is of the spirit. ~ That Jesus was not speaking of life as they knew of what life is with respect to the flesh, but speaks of it in the spiritual sense. That the life He speaks is of the spirit, so that he said, it is the spirit that quickeneth. He is therefore in effect telling them that the bread they should be seeking is not material bread that perisheth, but is spiritual bread that endureth unto eternal life.
  • And He told them that His words are spirit, that is, not only spiritual, but indeed are life. That is to say, that His words can quicken and quickeneth for they are life. ~ First Jesus told them that He is the living bread which came down from heaven so that one may eat of it and not die. He, in verse 63, saying "the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life", somehow repeated what He told them, but now pointing to His words. In saying that, Jesus in effect is simply telling them that what He meant to say is that His words are life, and whoever believes His words, that is, in Him, should have eternal life, and not die. And in that sense, His words quickeneth or gives life. But that is not to say that Jesus was talking about regeneration in verse 63. It was just part of his explanation to them about Himself being the bread of Life, the bread from heaven.
  • And truly, God's words are powerful, so powerful that by it, all creation was directly created, all creatures were given life, and all of creation are sustained. ~ I think I don't need to expound on this.

Are you saying that the word of God can GIVE spiritual life? Or, believing them is the manner in which those born of God prove they have eternal life~OR, the word of God is the SOURCE of eternal life and those that have life seek ONLY to live off of the word of God above the material things of this life? But, in this sense how can it be said that they quicken other than as David use it in the Psalms as I noted above ye to you to which you said nothing about that, so I'm trying to ponder what you are saying. Maybe with more time in the morning, I can see clearly YOUR POINT that you desire to make~and maybe you did, maybe it is me, if so, a little rest goes a long way in helping our minds to think clearly.

RB: Are you saying that the word of God can GIVE spiritual life?

Answer: Jesus plainly said "the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life". If His words are spirit and are life, what then becomes of those who receives His words? Of course, when I say "receive His words", I mean to say "believe Him and believe in Him". This is somehow related to what Jesus said to the devil in the wilderness when He was being tempted, that "man shall not live by bread alone, but man lives by every word that proceeds from the mouth of the Lord." The words of God, no doubt, are life and gives life or quickens.

RB: Or, believing them is the manner in which those born of God prove they have eternal life

Comment: I said nothing concerning that in my post.

RB: OR, the word of God is the SOURCE of eternal life and those that have life seek ONLY to live off of the word of God above the material things of this life?

Comment: I said nothing concerning that in my post.

RB: But, in this sense how can it be said that they quicken other than as David use it in the Psalms as I noted above ye to you to which you said nothing about that, so I'm trying to ponder what you are saying.

Comment: I did not say anything about that because Jesus was not there talking to the likes of David, nor have I said anything concerning Eph. 5:14 for Jesus was not there talking to the likes of the church. 


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Re: Trying the spirits whether they are of God~1st John 4:1
« Reply #640 on: Wed Apr 22, 2020 - 05:05:07 »
RB: Are you saying that the word of God can GIVE spiritual life?

Answer: Jesus plainly said "the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life". If His words are spirit and are life, what then becomes of those who receives His words? Of course, when I say "receive His words", I mean to say "believe Him and believe in Him". This is somehow related to what Jesus said to the devil in the wilderness when He was being tempted, that "man shall not live by bread alone, but man lives by every word that proceeds from the mouth of the Lord." The words of God, no doubt, are life and gives life or quickens.

RB: Or, believing them is the manner in which those born of God prove they have eternal life

Comment: I said nothing concerning that in my post.

RB: OR, the word of God is the SOURCE of eternal life and those that have life seek ONLY to live off of the word of God above the material things of this life?

Comment: I said nothing concerning that in my post.

RB: But, in this sense how can it be said that they quicken other than as David use it in the Psalms as I noted above ye to you to which you said nothing about that, so I'm trying to ponder what you are saying.

Comment: I did not say anything about that because Jesus was not there talking to the likes of David, nor have I said anything concerning Eph. 5:14 for Jesus was not there talking to the likes of the church.
I know that you did not directly say these things, but I was attempting to read your understanding and was having a difficult time understanding exactly what you were desiring to say. It may have been clear to your mind, but certainly was not to mind~the fault could have been two ways.  But after a good night rest, and thinking much more cleary~ I believe I now see what you are saying you believe, but I believe we BOTH could have been off from the what our Lord was saying, even though BOTH could be saying a biblical truth but using John 6:63 to teach what we were saying would not be the scripture to use to teach what we were saying~let me elaborate. 

First, to your points above:
Quote from: Michael2012 on: Yesterday at 18:13:28
He was not talking about earthly things but of heavenly things, such as are of the spirit or spiritual, not of the flesh or material.
True Jesus was not talking about earthly things as the Jews THOUGHT he was~(mainly about eating HIS FLESH and drinking HIS BLOOD but was speaking of the spiritual realm that true believers live in and how their mind of the new man is quickened thereby!
Quote from: Michael2012 on: Yesterday at 18:13:28
not of the flesh or material.
I think this phrase that you chose to use for the flesh was throwing me off. Michael, nowhere in the word of God is the sense given to the word FLESH, nowhere, so based on that you do not have the right from heaven to use it in THAT SENSE. The word flesh is 100% used as pertaining to ONE'S FLESH, and in this only sense we DO have the scriptural support to either use it as operating to man's fallen state, OR, in this place as operating to JESUS' FLESH which after reconsidering this scripture (and THANK YOU for asking me to do so) I NOW see it referring to JESUS' FLESH for it fits with the CONTEXT much better than either of our first thoughts. I went with my understanding that I have always held but MUST CONFESS that I have some reservations about the "s" being small until I reconsidering everything in light of your request. Here is what I now believe to be the truth of what Jesus is saying.

"the flesh profiteth nothing"~The human nature of Christ, though profitable, as in union with the Son of God, to be given for the life of his people, and to be an offering, and a sacrifice for their sins, yet not as alone, or as abstracted from the divine nature; nor would his flesh and blood, corporeally eaten, could, or should it be done, be of any avail to eternal life; nor is any other flesh, literally understood, profitable of itself for life; for man lives not by bread, or meat, or flesh alone, but by the word and blessing of God upon it, and along with it

"the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life"~The doctrines which Christ had then been delivering concerning himself, (John 6:26-63) his flesh and blood, being spiritually understood, "ONLY" are the means of quickening souls. The Gospel, and the truths of it, which are the wholesome words of our Lord Jesus Christ, are the means of conveying the Spirit of God, as a spirit of illumination and sanctification, into the hearts of men, and of quickening sinners dead in trespasses and sins: the Gospel is what quickens our minds of the new man to leave all and follow Christ, when it comes not in word only, or in the bare ministry of it, but with the energy of the Holy Ghost, and the power of divine grace to our new man.
Quote
John 6:63~"It is the spirit (TRUTHS) that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: (just eating Christ's flesh and drinking his blood would profit NO MAN) the words  (gospel truths concerning Jesus, such as FREE JUSTIFICATION BY GRACE ALONE, etc.) that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life (or, the true SOURCE of eternal life)."
Just a Peter said:
Quote from: Peter
John 6:68,69~Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life. And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God.(Peter's mind quickened into believing and being fully committed to following Christ, even though imperfect at times, both in doctrine and practical living.)
« Last Edit: Wed Apr 22, 2020 - 05:10:05 by RB »

Offline Michael2012

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Re: Trying the spirits whether they are of God~1st John 4:1
« Reply #641 on: Wed Apr 22, 2020 - 11:29:49 »
First, to your points above:
Quote from: Michael2012 on: Yesterday at 18:13:28
He was not talking about earthly things but of heavenly things, such as are of the spirit or spiritual, not of the flesh or material.
True Jesus was not talking about earthly things as the Jews THOUGHT he was~(mainly about eating HIS FLESH and drinking HIS BLOOD but was speaking of the spiritual realm that true believers live in and how their mind of the new man is quickened thereby!
Quote from: Michael2012 on: Yesterday at 18:13:28
not of the flesh or material.
I think this phrase that you chose to use for the flesh was throwing me off. Michael, nowhere in the word of God is the sense given to the word FLESH, nowhere, so based on that you do not have the right from heaven to use it in THAT SENSE. The word flesh is 100% used as pertaining to ONE'S FLESH, and in this only sense we DO have the scriptural support to either use it as operating to man's fallen state, OR, in this place as operating to JESUS' FLESH which after reconsidering this scripture (and THANK YOU for asking me to do so) I NOW see it referring to JESUS' FLESH for it fits with the CONTEXT much better than either of our first thoughts.

Sorry if it's throwing you off, but I didn't mean to. It's just how I see it. I don't see your seeing the word "flesh" as not used in the sense I see it, to be anywhere in scriptures, as necessarily refuting my view. And I could not agree on your conclusion that "so based on that you do not have the right from heaven to use it in THAT SENSE." I am thinking where that is all coming from. Now, I just don't disagree for no reason. As I said, in my reading of scriptures, I don't see the way you do, that the word "flesh" is 100% used as pertaining to ONE'S FLESH. For certainly, it is used in a figure of speech, and not all the time literally pertaining to one's flesh.

Regarding John 6:63, in my reply #637, at the very first paragraph in my discussion of the said passage, I said and I quote:

I don't think that Jesus here speaks of spirit as to refer to any spirit being, such as the Holy Spirit, Jesus as well does not here speaks of the flesh as to refer to man. This is made clearer when Jesus said "the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit".

So, my view is that Jesus there speaks of the spirit and flesh with the following equivalent: spirit = spiritual (not material or physical); flesh = material or physical (not spiritual). What is spirit but spirit and spiritual? What is flesh but physical and material? He is referring to the spirit and flesh there as in the sense that He referred to them in the following verse:

Luke 24:39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

Also, consider what this verse tells you of flesh. It somehow gives light to what Jesus meant for "flesh" in John 6:63.

1 Corinthians 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

Having said that, needless to say, I hold to my view regarding that, while I will have to look into what you say now is your new view, that "flesh" there in John 6:63 refers to JESUS' FLESH.

I went with my understanding that I have always held but MUST CONFESS that I have some reservations about the "s" being small until I reconsidering everything in light of your request. Here is what I now believe to be the truth of what Jesus is saying.

"the flesh profiteth nothing"~The human nature of Christ, though profitable, as in union with the Son of God, to be given for the life of his people, and to be an offering, and a sacrifice for their sins, yet not as alone, or as abstracted from the divine nature; nor would his flesh and blood, corporeally eaten, could, or should it be done, be of any avail to eternal life; nor is any other flesh, literally understood, profitable of itself for life; for man lives not by bread, or meat, or flesh alone, but by the word and blessing of God upon it, and along with it

"the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life"~The doctrines which Christ had then been delivering concerning himself, (John 6:26-63) his flesh and blood, being spiritually understood, "ONLY" are the means of quickening souls. The Gospel, and the truths of it, which are the wholesome words of our Lord Jesus Christ, are the means of conveying the Spirit of God, as a spirit of illumination and sanctification, into the hearts of men, and of quickening sinners dead in trespasses and sins: the Gospel is what quickens our minds of the new man to leave all and follow Christ, when it comes not in word only, or in the bare ministry of it, but with the energy of the Holy Ghost, and the power of divine grace to our new man.
Quote
John 6:63~"It is the spirit (TRUTHS) that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: (just eating Christ's flesh and drinking his blood would profit NO MAN) the words  (gospel truths concerning Jesus, such as FREE JUSTIFICATION BY GRACE ALONE, etc.) that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life (or, the true SOURCE of eternal life)."

Just a Peter said:
Quote from: Peter
John 6:68,69~Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life. And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God.(Peter's mind quickened into believing and being fully committed to following Christ, even though imperfect at times, both in doctrine and practical living.)

"the flesh profiteth nothing"~

I tried to view the flesh there as referring to Jesus' flesh, but I don't find it fitting. For this is what Jesus said: "It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing". The verbs are in the 3rd person and so does not necessarily refer to Him. In fact, by speaking in the 3rd person, Jesus effectively made what He said to be in the general sense. In His next statement following that, saying "the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.", He maintains speaking in the 3rd person, but this time was specific as to whose words He is referring to, which is no other but Himself. His need of going specific there only makes clear that what He said before that, does not necessarily refer to His spirit nor of his flesh. And this is also why I don't think that Jesus there speaks of spirit as to refer to any spirit being, nor He speaks of the flesh as to refer to man, when Jesus said "the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit".

Another consideration, why I think the flesh could not be referring to Jesus' flesh when He said "the flesh profiteth nothing" is this. This is what Jesus have just told them, "I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world." and said more saying "Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you. Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day. For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him." Evidently, Jesus had spoken of His flesh undoubtedly as that profiteth. In a view where the "flesh" in the phrase "the flesh profiteth nothing" refers to Jesus' flesh, it certainly contradicts much of what He just told them about His flesh and destroys His doctrine altogether.

"the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life"~

RB: The doctrines which Christ had then been delivering concerning himself, (John 6:26-63) his flesh and blood, being spiritually understood, "ONLY" are the means of quickening souls.

The words of Jesus, as Jesus Himself plainly said, are spirit and are life. I honestly could not say of the words of Christ as only a means of quickening. In fact, for me, I don't separate Jesus Christ from His words. Nor do I separate the Holy Spirit and the Father from His words either. Rather, He and His words, to me, are one, and so too the Holy Spirit and the Father. The sense of that could only be understood in the triune nature of God. I can't explain this clearly in the same manner that I can't explain clearly the triune nature of God. But I know you get what I meant there.

Also and besides, Jesus is the incarnate Word, through whom all things were made and that without the Word, was not anything made that was made. I believe Jesus' words are exactly what Jesus said they are. Not that the words per se, as spoken audible sounds of intelligible speech, when spoken, like magic, gives life. No. What I mean is that, the words of Jesus are more than mere spoken audible sounds of intelligible speech, but are indeed spirit, and are indeed life, coming forth from Him, not created but spoken, living and powerful and effective. They mean what they say and accomplish what they say.

Having said all that, at the end of the day, it all goes back to one, that is, it is the triune God (Father, Son, Holy Spirit) who quickeneth.

RB: It is the spirit (TRUTHS) that quickeneth

Yes, truth quickeneth. For God's words are truth, and are spirit, and are life. But it is not the truth that quickens the spiritually dead. For the spiritually dead, are they who have eyes but could not see, who have ears but could not hear, the things of the Spirit of God, and so, of the truth. What ears they have, what eyes they have, only hears and sees their master, to whom they are a slave of. I am sure you know this very well. For if the truth is that which quickens the spiritually dead, then why had not all those spiritually dead, to whom the apostles had spoken and preached the truth to, been quickened? Simply because, it is not the truth that quickens the spiritually dead.

Finally then, going back to the subject of quickening, with regards John 6:63, this passage, while it speaks of quickening, it does not speak of quickening, though could be related, as synonymous to what many refers to as the regeneration or being born again or born from above, or the second birth, or the new birth, or the new creation. Far from it.
« Last Edit: Wed Apr 22, 2020 - 13:32:37 by Michael2012 »

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Re: Trying the spirits whether they are of God~1st John 4:1
« Reply #642 on: Thu Apr 23, 2020 - 04:26:00 »
Sorry if it's throwing you off, but I didn't mean to. It's just how I see it. I don't see your seeing the word "flesh" as not used in the sense I see it, to be anywhere in scriptures, as necessarily refuting my view. And I could not agree on your conclusion that "so based on that you do not have the right from heaven to use it in THAT SENSE." I am thinking where that is all coming from. Now, I just don't disagree for no reason. As I said, in my reading of scriptures, I don't see the way you do, that the word "flesh" is 100% used as pertaining to ONE'S FLESH. For certainly, it is used in a figure of speech, and not all the time literally pertaining to one's flesh.
Well, not so much now as when I first read your understanding~now, after hearing you more and seeing where you are coming from, I see what you are saying, I just disagree with your position on John 6:63 because it has no support from John 6:26-63, NOR, OUTSIDE of John 6:63. Scripture supports each other and as far as I can see, no one scripture stands alone without ANY support from other scriptures.....this must be so, or else, any man can teach just about any doctrine he so desires to teach. Scripture not only supports one another, but also helps to refute errors by comparing scripture with scripture, but this would be an impossible task if it can be true that a scripture STAND ON AN ISLAND BY ITS SELF, as your understanding of "flesh" in John 6:63 does~ my brother. Michael, if you will ever convince me, then you MUST provide support for your understanding from God's testimony of TRUTH, neither yours " or " my beliefs of what the scriptures are saying matters as far as TRUTH IF we cannot get support from from God's word. Do you not agree with this?
Quote from: Michael2012 Reply #641 on: Yesterday at 11:29:49
Regarding John 6:63, in my reply #637, at the very first paragraph in my discussion of the said passage, I said and I quote:
Quote from: Michael2012 on Tue Apr 21, 2020 - 10:50:58
I don't think that Jesus here speaks of spirit as to refer to any spirit being, such as the Holy Spirit, Jesus as well does not here speaks of the flesh as to refer to man. This is made clearer when Jesus said "the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit".
I AGREE that the spirit does NOT refer to any spirit being, but to spiritual truths, especially so when UNDERSTOOD by us....for I said in my last post to you:
Quote from: RB Reply #640 on: Yesterday at 05:05:07
The doctrines which Christ had then been delivering (actually, ALL of of what he had said) concerning himself, FROM John 6:26-63.... but, mainly his flesh and blood, being spiritually and spiritually understood "ONLY"..... are the means of quickening already regenerate souls. The Gospel, and the truths of it, which are the wholesome words of our Lord Jesus Christ, are the means of conveying THE KNOWLEDGE of the Spirit of God, as a spirit of illumination and sanctification, into the hearts of men, and of quickening sinners who were dead in trespasses and sins: the Gospel is what quickens the minds of the new man to leave all and follow Christ, when it comes not in word only, or in the bare ministry of it, but with the energy of the Holy Ghost, and the power of divine grace to our new man.
I just added a few words to what I had said yesterday to make it a little clearer~ you can compare the quote to what I just said, but, overall the same, but I had to MAKE IT CLEARER so as to leave no doubt as to what I believe the scriptures teach us.
Quote from: Michael2012 on Tue Apr 21, 2020 - 10:50:58
So, my view is that Jesus there speaks of the spirit and flesh with the following equivalent: spirit = spiritual (not material or physical); flesh = material or physical (not spiritual)
Michael, nowhere can you find support IN John 6:26-63 to believe that "flesh = material or physical (not spiritual)", thereby, it becomes a private intrepretation which we all have held such in the past and even now, though we may not believe so until it is pointed out to us.
Quote from: Michael2012 on Tue Apr 21, 2020 - 10:50:58
What is flesh but physical and material?
Michael, that may be so, and MAN may use it in this sense and let us say for argument sake that it IS sometimes use in the scriptures in this sense~even though I cannot remember where, since it would be rare to do so in the scriptures, considering how the scriptures OVERALL use the word FLESH~yet it is NOT used in that sense in THIS CONTEXT in John 6:26-63 that's the MAIN point of what I'm saying. Michael CONTEXT drives our interpretation, not secular understanding and we will add, not even the scriptures IF it will NOT fit the CONTEXT. Do you not agree?

I'll come back shortly and finish so that this post will not be that long, and I could use a coffee break. RB  ::smile::

 
« Last Edit: Thu Apr 23, 2020 - 05:51:03 by RB »

Offline Michael2012

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Re: Trying the spirits whether they are of God~1st John 4:1
« Reply #643 on: Thu Apr 23, 2020 - 06:38:32 »
Well, not so much now as when I first read your understanding~now, after hearing you more and seeing where you are coming from, I see what you are saying, I just disagree with your position on John 6:63 because it has no support from OUTSIDE of John 6:63. Scripture support each other and as far as I can see, no one scripture stands alone without ANY support from other scriptures.....this must be so, or else, any man can teach just about any doctrine he so desires to teach. Scripture not only supports one another, but also helps to refute errors by comparing scripture with scripture, but this would be an impossible task if it can be true that a scripture STAND ON AN ISLAND BY ITS SELF, as your understanding of "flesh" in John 6:63 does~ my brother. Michael, if you will ever convince me, then you MUST provide support for your understanding from God's testimony of TRUTH, neither yours " or " my beliefs of what the scriptures are saying matters as far as TRUTH IF we cannot get support from from God's word. Do you not agree with this?

Well, what "flesh" in John 6:63 was meant to refer to by Jesus, is not doctrine RB. So, what you say regarding doctrines there does not really apply. And regarding the meaning of "flesh", besides its literal meaning, we go to the context. 

Quote from: Michael2012 on Tue Apr 21, 2020 - 10:50:58
I don't think that Jesus here speaks of spirit as to refer to any spirit being, such as the Holy Spirit, Jesus as well does not here speaks of the flesh as to refer to man. This is made clearer when Jesus said "the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit".
I AGREE that the spirit does NOT refer to any spirit being, but to spiritual truths, especially so when UNDERSTOOD by us....for I said in my last post to you:

I know. And that is why, as in my post in the quote box, "flesh" in John 6:63 should be taken in the same sense, as not referring to a human being or man.

Quote from: Michael2012 on Tue Apr 21, 2020 - 10:50:58
So, my view is that Jesus there speaks of the spirit and flesh with the following equivalent: spirit = spiritual (not material or physical); flesh = material or physical (not spiritual)
Michael, nowhere can you find support IN John 6:26-63 to believe that "flesh = material or physical (not spiritual)", thereby, it becomes a private intrepretation which we all have help such in the past and even now, though we may not believe so until it is pointed out to us.


I had just shown you. You easily could understand the sense of "spirit" as used in John 6:63, yet seemingly not with "flesh". What sense you take "spirit" to be there, should be the same sense that "flesh" should be taken. For example, if "spirit" there is taken to refer to the Holy Spirit, then "flesh" there should be taken to refer to a human being or a person.

If you read through the rest of what I said in my last reply post to, you'll see the support in John 6:26-63 to believe that "flesh = material or physical (not spiritual)", that you are asking here.

In addition, and to serve also as a clarification, I take "flesh" there in that sense, as being in contrast to the sense in which "spirit" is used by Jesus, that is, not spiritual. The sense of "flesh" there is not literal as to refer to man's physical make up, but to refer to the materiality or physicality, in the same sense as "spirit" there refers to spirituality or non-materiality. The question could be asked, why use the word "flesh" and not some other word? To that, I would say that, Jesus even could just have dropped that part altogether, because I think that, it does not change, add or lessen in any way, the truth of what He is telling them concerning His words. But I think Jesus used "flesh" instead of using any other word such as perhaps "physical" or "material" can be understood in the context of their conversation. For He had been telling them of His flesh, referring to it even as the bread that He will give them to eat. The very thing that they found hard to understand and believe. I see the wisdom in the use of "flesh" by Jesus in John 6:63, saying "the flesh profiteth nothing" which may find its way to take away from that which was already bothering their minds, concerning the eating of His flesh, which they could not understand. That to say "It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life", is a way of Jesus telling them, to not set their eyes and minds on material carnal things, but rather to set their eyes and minds on spiritual things, such as are His words, that are spirit and life.

So, it's not private interpretation RB. Why in John 6:63, I take "flesh" in that sense is coming not from my personal preference or choice or want, but in my consideration of context.

Quote from: Michael2012 on Tue Apr 21, 2020 - 10:50:58
What is flesh but physical and material?
Michael, that may be so, and MAN may use it in this sense and let us say for argument sake that it IS sometimes use in the scriptures in this sense~even though I cannot remember where, since it would be rare to do so in the scriptures, considering how the scriptures OVERALL use the word FLESH~yet it is NOT used in that sense in THIS CONTEXT in John 6:26-63 that's the MAIN point of what I'm saying. Michael CONTEXT drives our interpretation, not secular understanding and not even and the scriptures IF it will NOT fit the CONTEXT. DOoyou not agree?

I'll come back shortly and finish so that this post will not be that long, and I could use a coffee break. RB  ::smile::

Perhaps, I had already shown you that my take of the word "flesh" is context driven.

Here and in the rest of my posts in reply #641 which you have not yet commented on, I hope that you will get to see that.

By the way, enjoy your well deserved coffee my friend.
« Last Edit: Thu Apr 23, 2020 - 07:35:24 by Michael2012 »

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Re: Trying the spirits whether they are of God~1st John 4:1
« Reply #644 on: Fri Apr 24, 2020 - 04:25:48 »
So, my view is that Jesus there speaks of the spirit and flesh with the following equivalent: spirit = spiritual (not material or physical); flesh = material or physical (not spiritual). What is spirit but spirit and spiritual? What is flesh but physical and material? He is referring to the spirit and flesh there as in the sense that He referred to them in the following verse:

Luke 24:39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

Also, consider what this verse tells you of flesh. It somehow gives light to what Jesus meant for "flesh" in John 6:63.

1 Corinthians 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

Having said that, needless to say, I hold to my view regarding that, while I will have to look into what you say now is your new view, that "flesh" there in John 6:63 refers to JESUS' FLESH.

Just a Peter said:
"the flesh profiteth nothing"~
Michael, I'll cover this later because I believe there's a place in your next post that will bring this up again, we shall see, if not, then I'll come back, for I try to be honest in addressing every point made to me, which is the only honest way of having a fair and honest dialogue between two people. If in any place I do not cover something that you mention and you believe that I should, just bring it to my attention and I will.
Quote from: Michael2012 on Tue Apr 21, 2020 - 10:50:58
I tried to view the flesh there as referring to Jesus' flesh, but I don't find it fitting. For this is what Jesus said: The verbs are in the 3rd person and so does not necessarily refer to Him. In fact, by speaking in the 3rd person, Jesus effectively made what He said to be in the general sense. In His next statement following that, saying "the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.", He maintains speaking in the 3rd person, but this time was specific as to whose words He is referring to, which is no other but Himself. His need of going specific there only makes clear that what He said before that, does not necessarily refer to His spirit nor of his flesh. And this is also why I don't think that Jesus there speaks of spirit as to refer to any spirit being, nor He speaks of the flesh as to refer to man, when Jesus said "the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit".
Michael your English lesson may very well be correct, but, even so, all Jesus was doing in those words was declaring a biblical TRUTH SUMMING UP his words to the Jews concerning that which he had been speaking to them from 6:26 up until those very words that we are considering. The key is summing up, to CONCLUDING his lesson just as most ministers do when teaching on a particular subject, (even though Jesus' words were spoken here in John 6, MUCH LIKE what his apostles later said......"His disciples said unto him, Lo, now speakest thou plainly, and speakest no proverb. John 16:29) much like the writer of Hebrews did here:
Quote from: The writer of Hebrews
Hebrews 8:1~"Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens;"
This is exactly what we have in John 6:63~a SUM of all that Jesus taught the Jews in which many of them turned and walked away after hearing this hard proverbial sayings like EATING "his flesh and DRINKING his blood"~ which even if they could have, would profit them NOTHING, it would have proved their blindness even more so if they had even attempted that barbarous act of cannibalism.

Michael, it is imperative for us NOT to separate verse 63 from Jesus' teaching from John 6:26 down to those words.
Quote from: Michael2012 Michael2012 on Tue Apr 21, 2020 - 10:50:58
Another consideration, why I think the flesh could not be referring to Jesus' flesh when He said "the flesh profiteth nothing" is this. This is what Jesus have just told them, "I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world." and said more saying "Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you. Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day. For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him." Evidently, Jesus had spoken of His flesh undoubtedly as that profiteth. In a view where the "flesh" in the phrase "the flesh profiteth nothing" refers to Jesus' flesh, it certainly contradicts much of what He just told them about His flesh and destroys His doctrine altogether.
Brother Michael, please follow me carefully~"IF" indeed Jesus was referring to his literal flesh then as you said:
Quote from: Michael 2012 on Tue Apr 21, 2020 - 10:50:58
it certainly contradicts much of what He just told them about His flesh and destroys His doctrine altogether.
Our Lord Jesus was not speaking about his literal flesh, but was speaking using proverbial language in teaching spiritual truths that ONCE understood quickens the mind of born again children of God.

So, that being understood all Jesus was doing in John 6:63 was revealing to them that what he had said in John 6:32-58 were spoken in a proverb using TRUE BIBLICAL SPIRITUAL TRUTH and that his flesh as flesh and blood being considered AS SUCH had NO profit by literally eating and drinking them~even if it were possible~ Besides, Jesus' flesh had no virtue as simply being a man~ but "his flesh" which was given for the sins of his people considering that his HEART, MIND, AND SOUL were without SIN and AS SUCH had spiritual healing power if offered to God for the sins of his people~but to eat and drink of his flesh profiteth NOTHING.
Quote from: Michael 2012 on Tue Apr 21, 2020 - 10:50:58
Finally then, going back to the subject of quickening, with regards John 6:63, this passage, while it speaks of quickening, it does not speak of quickening, though could be related, as synonymous to what many refers to as the regeneration or being born again or born from above, or the second birth, or the new birth, or the new creation. Far from it.
Agreed, that's why I went back and made myself clearer in that one statement that I had said.

I'll stop and pick up later as time permits AND as my "tired mind" (and about used up)  will allow me to think clearly~it's getting old Michael and it is not what it once was.  I see why they would NOT allow David to continue going to battle in his old age! I'm getting close to being there for sure.  ::shrug:: Others always see signs of it first before the person does.
« Last Edit: Fri Apr 24, 2020 - 05:18:18 by RB »

Offline Michael2012

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Re: Trying the spirits whether they are of God~1st John 4:1
« Reply #645 on: Fri Apr 24, 2020 - 13:57:06 »
Michael, I'll cover this later because I believe there's a place in your next post that will bring this up again, we shall see, if not, then I'll come back, for I try to be honest in addressing every point made to me, which is the only honest way of having a fair and honest dialogue between two people. If in any place I do not cover something that you mention and you believe that I should, just bring it to my attention and I will.
 
I'll wait then.

Michael your English lesson may very well be correct, but, even so, all Jesus was doing in those words was declaring a biblical TRUTH SUMMING UP his words to the Jews concerning that which he had been speaking to them from 6:26 up until those very words that we are considering. The key is summing up, to CONCLUDING his lesson just as most ministers do when teaching on a particular subject, (even though Jesus' words were spoken here in John 6, MUCH LIKE what his apostles later said......"His disciples said unto him, Lo, now speakest thou plainly, and speakest no proverb. John 16:29) much like the writer of Hebrews did here:
Quote from: The writer of Hebrews
Hebrews 8:1~"Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens;"
This is exactly what we have in John 6:63~a SUM of all that Jesus taught the Jews in which many of them turned and walked away after hearing this hard proverbial sayings like EATING "his flesh and DRINKING his blood"~ which even if they could have, would profit them NOTHING, it would have proved their blindness even more so if they had even attempted that barbarous act of cannibalism.

Michael, it is imperative for us NOT to separate verse 63 from Jesus' teaching from John 6:26 down to those words.


But RB, John 6:63 is not as you say is "a SUM of all that Jesus taught the Jews". It is not as was in Hebrews 8:1. That is very obvious in that, if we try to see what Jesus was discussing with the followers, from verse 26, it was not about what He told them in verse 63. It was not about the matter that it is the spirit that quickeneth, nor was it about the flesh, and especially His flesh, as profiting them nothing, nor was it about His words being spirit and life. It was about some other truths, such as that the work of God is that they believe on Him, that He is the bread of life, that the will of God is that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life, and will be raised up at the last day, and that He will give His flesh for the life of the world. It is not saying as though, we are totally separating what He said there in v.63 to all that had happened and told them before that. No. For what occasion that led Jesus to say what He did in verse 63 certainly is related and is coming from all that had happened prior to that. What Jesus said in verse 63 was not any one of the truths He told them from v.26 to 58, nor a summary of all that He told them, but was to address the followers' reaction (v.60) to what He just told them in those verses.

Quote from: Michael2012 on Tue Apr 21, 2020 - 10:50:58
Another consideration, why I think the flesh could not be referring to Jesus' flesh when He said "the flesh profiteth nothing" is this. This is what Jesus have just told them, "I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world." and said more saying "Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you. Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day. For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him." Evidently, Jesus had spoken of His flesh undoubtedly as that profiteth. In a view where the "flesh" in the phrase "the flesh profiteth nothing" refers to Jesus' flesh, it certainly contradicts much of what He just told them about His flesh and destroys His doctrine altogether.
Brother Michael, please follow me carefully~"IF" indeed Jesus was referring to his literal flesh then as you said:
Quote from: Michael 2012 on Tue Apr 21, 2020 - 10:50:58
it certainly contradicts much of what He just told them about His flesh and destroys His doctrine altogether.
Our Lord Jesus was not speaking about his literal flesh, but was speaking using proverbial language in teaching spiritual truths that ONCE understood quickens the mind of born again children of God.

So, that being understood all Jesus was doing in John 6:63 was revealing to them that what he had said in John 6:32-58 were spoken in a proverb using TRUE BIBLICAL SPIRITUAL TRUTH and that his flesh as flesh and blood being considered AS SUCH had NO profit by literally eating and drinking them~even if it were possible~ Besides, Jesus' flesh had no virtue as simply being a man~ but "his flesh" which was given for the sins of his people considering that his HEART, MIND, AND SOUL were without SIN and AS SUCH had spiritual healing power if offered to God for the sins of his people~but to eat and drink of his flesh profiteth NOTHING.

Well, you can put it that way, why not.

I think the followers know pretty well that Jesus was not talking literally when He told them about eating His flesh and drinking His blood. The Jews knew nothing of that sort nor did they practice anything like that. What was hard for them is not understanding that what Jesus told them about His flesh, about Him being the bread, as not something literal, or that it is proverbial language, but how Jesus would give them his flesh to eat, that is, what Jesus meant by what He said. And that is, even while Jesus had told them, during their conversation from v.26 to 58. And as to why they did not apparently get it, only tells us that they were not among those whom the Father hath giveth Him, else they would had understood  and believed His words.

They (those who believe not) apparently had not heard and had not learned of God in His words in Deut. 8:3, and evidently were not among those Jesus had told them of in verse 45, "It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me."

Quote from: Michael 2012 on Tue Apr 21, 2020 - 10:50:58
Finally then, going back to the subject of quickening, with regards John 6:63, this passage, while it speaks of quickening, it does not speak of quickening, though could be related, as synonymous to what many refers to as the regeneration or being born again or born from above, or the second birth, or the new birth, or the new creation. Far from it.
Agreed, that's why I went back and made myself clearer in that one statement that I had said.

So RB, you now understand that when one said in this forum, and I quote, "Quickened and born again are synonymous." and "the quickening by the Holy Spirit is the indwelling Holy Spirit.", why I did not agree. And not without good and valid reason.

I'll stop and pick up later as time permits AND as my "tired mind" (and about used up)  will allow me to think clearly~it's getting old Michael and it is not what it once was.  I see why they would NOT allow David to continue going to battle in his old age! I'm getting close to being there for sure.  ::shrug:: Others always see signs of it first before the person does.

No problem brother.

 

     
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