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Offline Reformer

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A Fresh Look At Jesus' Prophecies
« on: Sat Jun 06, 2020 - 21:21:46 »
REFORMATION RUMBLINGS
BUFF SCOTT, JR.
_______________________________
 
A FRESH LOOK AT
Jesus’ Prophecies Relating To The
Destruction of Jerusalem

    Here is what I see in Matthew 24 and Luke 21. Within the predictions our Lord uttered are a few symbolic remarks. Please note the passages under study, and take note of the symbolisms.

>Jesus addressed the destruction of the Jewish Temple and Jerusalem.
> Symptoms of birth pains will be false Christs and prophets and turmoil among the provinces within the Roman Empire.
> Because of weak faith, many will turn or fall away and betray each other.
> The Good News will be proclaimed throughout the “whole world” of the Roman Empire before Judaism ends.
> When that moment arrives, the man on his roof must flee immediately, and pregnant women and nursing mothers will have a difficult time escaping.
> Pray that when this happens, it will not be on the Jewish Sabbath, for then the gates to the city will be closed.
> Jesus came with power and great glory in judgment upon the rebellious Jews, after which people recognized the awesome judgment as coming from Him or “saw the Son of Man coming in the clouds of the sky.”
> The sun will be darkened, the moon will not reflect its light, and the stars will fall from heaven are all representative of great powers falling, both religious and political.
> Many thousands of Jews will fall by the sword and many others taken as prisoners to all the nations.
[History says that about eleven-hundred thousand perished, and another hundred thousand were taken as prisoners to all the nations.]
 

    Here are two interesting symbolic verses. “At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory. And he will send His angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other” [Matt. 24:30-31]

>The destruction of Jerusalem was such a terrifying example of divine judgment, described in terms like the “clouds of the sky and with power and great glory,” that all the Jewish tribes mourned.

>“His angels” [messengers] were the apostles and those who followed afterwards. 

>The “trumpet call” was the trumpet call of the Gospel, which was heard throughout the Roman provinces and beyond. 

>The “gathering of His elect” were the Gentiles who had been chosen for salvation in place of the rebellious Jews


    Another interesting thought is recorded in Luke 21:28, the parallel chapter. Jesus spoke of the believers’ deliverance or liberation—“redemption.” This points to the flight out of Jerusalem and safety from the horrible calamity. This was a warning for believers to flee [see also Matt. 24:15].

    Matt. 24:17 & 18: “Let the one who is on the housetop not go down to take what is in his house, and let the one who is in the field not turn back to take his cloak.” Why? Because their time to escape the Roman Army would be limited.

   Verse 19: “And alas for women who are pregnant and for those who are nursing infants in those days!” Why? To flee the Roman Army under such circumstances would almost be impossible.

    Verse 20: “Pray that your flight [escape] may not be in winter or on a Sabbath.” Why? Escaping the pending tribulation [distress] would be uncommonly difficult. Under such horrific conditions, “...let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains” [Verse 15].

    I think it is safe—and biblical—to say that Matthew 24 and Luke 21 do not refer to the second personal coming of our Lord, but rather to His coming in judgment upon the stiff-necked and rebellious Jewish nation. In light of this biblical evidence, it seems reasonable to conclude that the destruction of Jerusalem and the Jewish State are alluded to, which occurred in A. D. 67-70, as history affirms.

    Another interesting thought is recorded in Luke 21:28, the parallel chapter. Jesus spoke of the believers’ deliverance or liberation—“redemption.” This points to the flight out of Jerusalem and safety from the horrific calamity. This was a warning for believers to flee [see also Matt. 24:15].

   God bestowed His judgment upon a wicked and perverse generation—His once chosen people. To cover another base, there is no implication the two chapters are related in any way to the modern-day “Rapture” Theology. Simply, our Lord came in judgment upon a rebellious people.
 
    A few moments before Stephen’s life ended when his Jewish brothers stoned him to death, he said to them, “You stiff-necked people, uncircumcised in heart and ears, you always resist the Holy Spirit. As your [Jewish] fathers did, so do you. Which of the prophets did not your fathers persecute? And they killed those who announced beforehand the coming of the Righteous One, whom you have now betrayed and murdered” [Acts 7:51-53].

    The bottom line, as noted before, is that in A. D. 67-70 God divorced His once chosen people because of their habitual and long-term spiritual adultery. Jesus makes this logically clear in Matthew 24 and Luke 21.
« Last Edit: Sun Jun 07, 2020 - 19:29:35 by Reformer »

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A Fresh Look At Jesus' Prophecies
« on: Sat Jun 06, 2020 - 21:21:46 »

Offline TrevorL

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Re: A Fresh Look At Jesus' Prophecies
« Reply #1 on: Mon Jun 08, 2020 - 00:47:35 »
Greetings Reformer,
    The bottom line, as noted before, is that in A. D. 67-70 God divorced His once chosen people because of their habitual and long-term spiritual adultery. Jesus makes this logically clear in Matthew 24 and Luke 21.
I was interested in your post and agree much or most of the detail in Matthew 24 and Luke 21 speaks of AD 70. Luke adds additional detail in verse 24 when he speaks of the destruction of Jerusalem by the Roman armies:
Luke 21:20–24 (KJV): 20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. 21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto. 22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. 23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people. 24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
Luke records that Jesus states that there would be a long period of time when Jerusalem would be trodden down of the Gentiles, but that this period would terminate when the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled. I suggest that this was partially fulfilled in AD 1967 when the Jews recaptured the city of Jerusalem, coinciding with the 2300 prophetic days of 2300 years of Daniel 8:12-14, from BC 334-333 to AD 1967.

Kind regards
Trevor

Offline RB

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Re: A Fresh Look At Jesus' Prophecies
« Reply #2 on: Mon Jun 08, 2020 - 03:41:14 »
Greetings Reformer, I was interested in your post and agree much or most of the detail in Matthew 24 and Luke 21 speaks of AD 70. Luke adds additional detail in verse 24 when he speaks of the destruction of Jerusalem by the Roman armies:
Luke 21:20–24 (KJV): 20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. 21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto. 22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. 23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people. 24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
Luke records that Jesus states that there would be a long period of time when Jerusalem would be trodden down of the Gentiles, but that this period would terminate when the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled. I suggest that this was partially fulfilled in AD 1967 when the Jews recaptured the city of Jerusalem, coinciding with the 2300 prophetic days of 2300 years of Daniel 8:12-14, from BC 334-333 to AD 1967.

Kind regards
Trevor


Greetings Trevor~brother we shall soon be covering this here: http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/theology/symbolic-jargon-vs-the-literal/msg1055165626/?topicseen#msg1055165626  While I will admit that the sound bites in Luke's account of the last days on the surface may point to literal Jerusalem but there is no support from the scriptures to teach this when they all are compared with each other.

And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh~is interpreted for us by John's  writings concerning the same time period.
Quote from: John
Revelation 20:7-9~"And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them."
Brother Trevor, let us make this very clear so as there is no mistake about this one point~there is ONLY ONE CiTY that is truly beloved of God and it is NOT literal Jerusalem but spiritual Jerusalem~the NEW Jerusalem, God's eternal holy Temple built not by the hands of man, but by the Spirit of the Living God.

When Satan is loosed for a little season at the end of this present world he will AGAIN regain his full power as he had in the OT over the nations of the world except for a small remnant within the small nation of Israel. What we read of in Revelation 20 is the exact same subject under consideration in Matthew 24,25; Mark 13; and Luke 21. Sound bites are there to reward diligent seekers of the truth who heed Paul's exhortations to study to shew ourself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth~sound bites are also there to confound men who are lazy and who follow men instead of trusting the word of God to deliver to them its truths.

One question for you to consider: IF indeed this is speaking of a literal army with war weapons ALREADY SURROUNDING A LITERAL CITY then does not reason at least tell you that it is TOO LATE TO FLEE unto a LITERAL mountain? Either we must accuse Jesus of being irrational or better yet, you would think it would be a clear cut sign telling us to look for a meaning that sound reasoning and common sense would help us understand Jesus' words who is THE TRUTH of every word that came out of his mouth~John's revelation of Jesus Christ give us THAT SUPPORT~looking outside of the scriptures removes our ability to use even sound reasoning and common sense! Spiritual Jerusalem is NOW being trodden of Gentiles..................man of sin professing to believe in Jesus Christ, these have taken OVER the temple of God and have set their eyes on making war with the saints and the saints HAVE fled from Jerusalem and they are warning others to NOT enter into these false churches where the abomination that God WILL make desolate SIT where it ought NOT to sit and rules therein.

Later we will consider these things in detail.  http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/theology/symbolic-jargon-vs-the-literal/msg1055165626/?topicseen#msg1055165626   

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Re: A Fresh Look At Jesus' Prophecies
« Reply #2 on: Mon Jun 08, 2020 - 03:41:14 »

Offline TrevorL

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Re: A Fresh Look At Jesus' Prophecies
« Reply #3 on: Mon Jun 08, 2020 - 08:30:18 »
Greetings RB,
While I will admit that the sound bites in Luke's account of the last days on the surface may point to literal Jerusalem but there is no support from the scriptures to teach this when they all are compared with each other.
I appreciate your comments, but I believe that 1967 is the first step towards cleansing literal Jerusalem. Isaiah 2:1-4 is still future and depicts literal Jerusalem during the Kingdom of God on earth, after Jesus has returned to sit upon the Throne of David. Acts 3:19-21 also speaks of the times of refreshing and restoration when Jesus returns, and these have been spoken about by all the prophets.

Kind regards
Trevor

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Re: A Fresh Look At Jesus' Prophecies
« Reply #3 on: Mon Jun 08, 2020 - 08:30:18 »
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Offline RB

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Re: A Fresh Look At Jesus' Prophecies
« Reply #4 on: Mon Jun 08, 2020 - 12:57:49 »
Greetings RB,I appreciate your comments, but I believe that 1967 is the first step towards cleansing literal Jerusalem. Isaiah 2:1-4 is still future and depicts literal Jerusalem during the Kingdom of God on earth, after Jesus has returned to sit upon the Throne of David. Acts 3:19-21 also speaks of the times of refreshing and restoration when Jesus returns, and these have been spoken about by all the prophets.

Kind regards
Trevor


Brother, While I appreciate your sincerity and love for God, yet I must respectfully disagree with you.
Quote from: TrevorL on: Today at 08:30:18
but I believe that 1967 is the first step towards cleansing literal Jerusalem
There is nothing special about a literal city in this world.
Quote from: Paul
Galatians 4:25,26~For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children. But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all."
To be short~Since the Jerusalem in our day is not even a third cousin to the Jerusalem that was in Paul’s day, Paul separates present Jews in Jerusalem even farther from Gentile believers in Christ! The bondage here is not the Roman rule, which was true, but spiritual bondage by context! Anyone who traced his religious worship to Jerusalem was in bondage (John 4:20-24). And still are! The heavenly Jerusalem, the kingdom of Jesus Christ, is free like Sarah was a freewoman. And it is that heavenly city that is the uniting place of all believers~ both Jews and Gentiles. Abraham sought this city and believers of every race have come unto it, for it is the heavenly Jerusalem of spiritual significance, the Zion of Christ (Hebrews 11:10; 12:22-24; 13:14)! So much more could be said.
Quote from: TrevorL on: Today at 08:30:18
Isaiah 2:1-4 is still future and depicts literal Jerusalem during the Kingdom of God on earth, after Jesus has returned to sit upon the Throne of David. Acts 3:19-21 also speaks of the times of refreshing and restoration when Jesus returns, and these have been spoken about by all the prophets.
My dear brother, do not believe me, BELIEVE the apostles who were JEWS "AS THEY"  interpreted their OT scriptures for US in the NT! According to Peter Jesus Christ is NOW sitting on David's throne~
Quote from: Luke
Acts 2:29-37~"Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day. Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption. This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear. For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, Until I make thy foes thy footstool. Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ. Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?"
Brother, these scriptures by Peter a JEW, clearly tells that that David a PROPHET and a JEWS understood that God would RAISE UP JESUS TO SIT ON "HIS" THRONE being FULFILLED at HIS RESURRECTION, not at his second coming .

Consider carefully Acts 2 and then ask yourself have I been deceived by false prophets preaching a JEWISH FABLE! That robs Jesus Christ of his PRESENT glory and highly exalted position at God's right hand...or the HIGHEST place anyone could EVER be exalted to!  Selah
« Last Edit: Mon Jun 08, 2020 - 13:01:18 by RB »

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Re: A Fresh Look At Jesus' Prophecies
« Reply #4 on: Mon Jun 08, 2020 - 12:57:49 »



Offline Reformer

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Re: A Fresh Look At Jesus' Prophecies
« Reply #5 on: Mon Jun 08, 2020 - 14:37:07 »

TO THE READERS OF THIS ISSUE

     I’d like to add a footnote to my column and remarks above. The account of the Roman/Jewish War was given by Josephus, the Jewish Historian who witnessed and recorded the War, is almost an echo to the predictions of Jesus, as listed in Matthew 24 and Luke 21.

    Luke writes, “But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation [destruction] has come near.” Women ate their own children from starvation. The Jews within the city fought each other as well as the Roman Army.

    On August 10, A. D. 70, the city was stormed and the results were a universal massacre—1,100,000 people perished, and 100,000 survivors were sold into slavery.

    To try to place Matthew 24 and Luke 21 at a future date, does an absolute injustice to Jesus’ testimony

Buff

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Re: A Fresh Look At Jesus' Prophecies
« Reply #5 on: Mon Jun 08, 2020 - 14:37:07 »

Offline RB

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Re: A Fresh Look At Jesus' Prophecies
« Reply #6 on: Mon Jun 08, 2020 - 15:26:50 »
TO THE READERS OF THIS ISSUE

    I’d like to add a footnote to my column and remarks above. The account of the Roman/Jewish War was given by Josephus, the Jewish Historian who witnessed and recorded the War, is almost an echo to the predictions of Jesus, as listed in Matthew 24 and Luke 21.

    Luke writes, “But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation [destruction] has come near.” Women ate their own children from starvation. The Jews within the city fought each other as well as the Roman Army.

    On August 10, A. D. 70, the city was stormed and the results were a universal massacre—1,100,000 people perished, and 100,000 survivors were sold into slavery.

    To try to place Matthew 24 and Luke 21 at a future date, does an absolute injustice to Jesus’ testimony

Buff
Sir, What are you thinking? Trusting in a reprobate historian? You should read more about him. The man was a traitor and jumped from side to side depending upon when it was advantageous to him. But that's not even the point. The point is that this reprobate cannot be the arbiter of scripture. Why do not you see this?

I can give you quotes from many people, but one will do from a believer from China where faith is not allowed as you know, yet here is what this man said concerning Josephus.
Quote from: Peng Bao
I did a study of this for a paper I had to do, so I may be able to shed some light on this. How accurate is Flavius Josephus? Well, to be honest, "every reputable scholar" says that he is biased in at least some of his writings, which does send up red flags. Also, there are portions of his material that are unquestionably inaccurate. For example, his first published work (75 AD), "The Jewish War" starts out terribly inaccurate. Josephus was not really familiar with much of the history of the days of Antiochus Epiphanes (circa fifth century BC), but that didn't stop him from writing about the history from those days to his own days anyway, often with many errors. Also, many of his dates have been proven to be inaccurate also. He himself changes the number of Jewish priests he wrote of in "Apion" (4) in his later "The Life Of Josephus," to (24). But my conclusion was that most scholars think that he writes with a definite bias, but they also believe that his writings are thought to be pretty accurate. Not all concur with that assessment of course.

One thing though- He did jump from the Romans, to backing the Jews when he saw the rebellion doing well, and back to the Romans after they were defeated, and back to supporting Jews again. The Jews of course consider him a traitor. And he did hide in a cistern the only survivor of the massacre by the Romans, and wouldn't come out until they guaranteed his safety. While others fought to the death. So I wouldn't really give 10 cents for his character. Just some facts you don't generally hear about him from all those authors who quote him.

But the others are right, that's besides the point. The point is that there is only one infallible document, and that is the bible. Josephus' writings cannot be trusted as truth, only scripture can.
Bluff, that's MY POINT as well, children of God are children of FAITH, being so, we trust ONLY thus saith the Lord and to him, we look for our interpretation from WITHIN his precious word....not outside of it. 

Offline Reformer

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Re: A Fresh Look At Jesus' Prophecies
« Reply #7 on: Mon Jun 08, 2020 - 15:49:47 »
RB:

    Hopefully, final note on this point: Please get with it, it appears you are not thinking clearly enough to ascertain our Lord's predictions in the two chapters under study.

    Not only did Josephus record the Roman/Jewish War, but I have many comments from Christian  commentators who have written about the War and who rely on Josephus' testimony, inasmuch as he lived during the War.

    True, Josephus was not one of the biblical writers. But Matthew and Luke were! Forget about Josephus, if you wish, but at least adopt the testimony and predictions of our Lord recorded by Matthew and Luke.

    Let me add one more note. You wrote, "...we look for our interpretation from WITHIN his precious word....not outside of it."

    Am I to understand from this that you do not ever turn to the interpretations of other writers, scholars, or commentators to better understand what you are reading from the scriptures?

    For if you have and/or do, you are simply colliding with yourself in this matter. Shame on you.

Buff
« Last Edit: Mon Jun 08, 2020 - 20:40:46 by Reformer »

Offline TrevorL

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Re: A Fresh Look At Jesus' Prophecies
« Reply #8 on: Mon Jun 08, 2020 - 23:13:03 »
Greetings again RB,
Brother, While I appreciate your sincerity and love for God, yet I must respectfully disagree with you. There is nothing special about a literal city in this world.
The Jerusalem mentioned in Isaiah 2:1-4 and many OT passages is Jerusalem transformed after the return of Jesus. Luke 21:24 is speaking about the literal Jerusalem, and what will occur to this city when the time period mentioned ends is revealed in Zechariah 14 which includes the nations gathering against the city, the earthquake at the return of Jesus, Jesus fighting against those nations, and then an insight into the nations coming up to Jerusalem to worship, and this latter detail is similar to Isaiah 2:1-4.
Quote
The heavenly Jerusalem, the kingdom of Jesus Christ, is free like Sarah was a freewoman. And it is that heavenly city that is the uniting place of all believers~ both Jews and Gentiles. Abraham sought this city and believers of every race have come unto it, for it is the heavenly Jerusalem of spiritual significance, the Zion of Christ (Hebrews 11:10; 12:22-24; 13:14)!
The heavenly Jerusalem is not a different city in heaven, but the literal Jerusalem when it will be under the rule of Jesus as King, sitting upon the Throne of David. Abraham and Jesus were promised the Land of Israel, but Abraham is waiting to receive that inheritance Genesis 13:14-15, Galatians 3:8-9,16,26-29.
Quote
According to Peter Jesus Christ is NOW sitting on David's throne~Brother, these scriptures by Peter a JEW, clearly tells that that David a PROPHET and a JEWS understood that God would RAISE UP JESUS TO SIT ON "HIS" THRONE being FULFILLED at HIS RESURRECTION, not at his second coming . Consider carefully Acts 2 and then ask yourself have I been deceived by false prophets preaching a JEWISH FABLE! That robs Jesus Christ of his PRESENT glory and highly exalted position at God's right hand...or the HIGHEST place anyone could EVER be exalted to!  Selah
Peter gives an exposition of the Throne of David AND Psalm 110:1. Jesus has been exalted to sit at the right hand of God the Father, in God the Father’s Throne. But soon God will send Jesus to establish the Kingdom of God upon the earth, and Jesus will then sit upon the Throne of David in Jerusalem.

Kind regards
Trevor

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Re: A Fresh Look At Jesus' Prophecies
« Reply #8 on: Mon Jun 08, 2020 - 23:13:03 »

Offline RB

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Re: A Fresh Look At Jesus' Prophecies
« Reply #9 on: Tue Jun 09, 2020 - 04:26:08 »
Am I to understand from this that you do not ever turn to the interpretations of other writers, scholars, or commentators to better understand what you are reading from the scriptures?
Of course I have and will always hear and try every spirit~just as the noble Bereans did Paul in Acts 17:11.

But sir, we are not comparing apples with apples (by using commentaries of PROFESS BELIEVERS) when we allow our selves to follow a profess reprobate who in all of his writings only made mention of the name of JESUS ONCE and that not with a humble spirit of admiration.

But be as it may, bottom line, NO MAN's word is to be used ALONG SIDE OF THE SCRIPTURES as though "without them" one would never know the truth....that's what we are contending for and no more.
Quote from: Reformer on: Yesterday at 15:49:47
For if you have and/or do, you are simply colliding with yourself in this matter. Shame on you.
The only person that should be ashamed is that person who professes to believe in SOLA SCRIPTURA~per Matthew 4:4, (as Jesus DID) yet give evidence that they do not by using Josephus' writings to enable them to understand the Olivet Discourse and other related end-time events that they end up rubber-stamping them FULFILLED 70 A.D.! By the time they are finished, there is very little bible left for the twenty-first-century believer.
« Last Edit: Tue Jun 09, 2020 - 05:53:04 by RB »

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Re: A Fresh Look At Jesus' Prophecies
« Reply #10 on: Tue Jun 09, 2020 - 04:45:05 »
Greetings again RB, The Jerusalem mentioned in Isaiah 2:1-4 and many OT passages is Jerusalem transformed after the return of Jesus. Luke 21:24 is speaking about the literal Jerusalem, and what will occur to this city when the time period mentioned ends is revealed in Zechariah 14 which includes the nations gathering against the city, the earthquake at the return of Jesus, Jesus fighting against those nations, and then an insight into the nations coming up to Jerusalem to worship, and this latter detail is similar to Isaiah 2:1-4.The heavenly Jerusalem is not a different city in heaven, but the literal Jerusalem when it will be under the rule of Jesus as King, sitting upon the Throne of David. Abraham and Jesus were promised the Land of Israel, but Abraham is waiting to receive that inheritance Genesis 13:14-15, Galatians 3:8-9,16,26-29.Peter gives an exposition of the Throne of David AND Psalm 110:1. Jesus has been exalted to sit at the right hand of God the Father, in God the Father’s Throne. But soon God will send Jesus to establish the Kingdom of God upon the earth, and Jesus will then sit upon the Throne of David in Jerusalem.

Kind regards
Trevor
Greetings again Trevor~I would like to discuss this subject separate from discussing some of the end-time events with Reformer~in other words We can discuss the "HOPE of ISRAEL" per Acts 28 in another thread of its own.
Quote from: THE HOLY GHOST
Acts 28:17-24"And it came to pass, that after three days Paul called the chief of the Jews together: and when they were come together, he said unto them, Men and brethren, though I have committed nothing against the people, or customs of our fathers, yet was I delivered prisoner from Jerusalem into the hands of the Romans.Who, when they had examined me, would have let me go, because there was no cause of death in me. But when the Jews spake against it, I was constrained to appeal unto Caesar; not that I had ought to accuse my nation of. For this cause therefore have I called for you, to see you, and to speak with you: because that for the hope of Israel I am bound with this chain. And they said unto him, We neither received letters out of Judaea concerning thee, neither any of the brethren that came shewed or spake any harm of thee. But we desire to hear of thee what thou thinkest: for as concerning this sect, we know that every where it is spoken against. And when they had appointed him a day, there came many to him into his lodging; to whom he expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses, and out of the prophets, from morning till evening. And some believed the things which were spoken, and some believed not."
Trevor, we can start a separate thread on the subject...... " HOPE OF ISRAEL "~the very reason Paul was bound with a chain~if we can determine what Paul was preaching that was the TRUE HOPE of Israel, then we can settle many doctrinal points of differences that separate believers. Would you like to take this to another thread for truly we are heading toward another doctrine that is different than what even Reformer believes in and intended for? I would love to discuss this doctrine with you concerning the HOPE OF ISRAEL, which you believe is a future reign of Christ over the natural seed of David in a literal city, etc. etc.
« Last Edit: Tue Jun 09, 2020 - 04:48:48 by RB »

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Re: A Fresh Look At Jesus' Prophecies
« Reply #12 on: Tue Jun 09, 2020 - 07:18:24 »
Greetings again RB,
Greetings again Trevor~I would like to discuss this subject separate from discussing some of the end-time events with Reformer~in other words We can discuss the "HOPE of ISRAEL" per Acts 28 in another thread of its own. Trevor, we can start a separate thread on the subject...... " HOPE OF ISRAEL "~the very reason Paul was bound with a chain~if we can determine what Paul was preaching that was the TRUE HOPE of Israel, then we can settle many doctrinal points of differences that separate believers. Would you like to take this to another thread for truly we are heading toward another doctrine that is different than what even Reformer believes in and intended for? I would love to discuss this doctrine with you concerning the HOPE OF ISRAEL, which you believe is a future reign of Christ over the natural seed of David in a literal city, etc. etc.
I suggest that I have already discussed the scope of my understanding already in this thread. If and when you adequately answer the verses that I have already mentioned, say Isaiah 2:1-4, Zechariah 14 and Acts 3:19-21 then I will possibly join you either here or a new thread. If you only quote a few of your favourite verses which say “Jerusalem above” or “heavenly city” then I will not respond.

Kind regards
Trevor

Offline RB

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Re: A Fresh Look At Jesus' Prophecies
« Reply #13 on: Tue Jun 09, 2020 - 07:39:03 »
Greetings again RB, I suggest that I have already discussed the scope of my understanding already in this thread. If and when you adequately answer the verses that I have already mentioned, say Isaiah 2:1-4, Zechariah 14 and Acts 3:19-21 then I will possibly join you either here or a new thread.

Kind regards

Trevor

I will start a new thread.
Quote from: TrevorL on: Today at 07:18:24
a few of your favourite verses which say “Jerusalem above” or “heavenly city” then I will not respond.
I truly have no favorite scriptures per se on such subjects~nevertheless, I will address any scriptures you desire which is a fair request, even though not a word was said about the ones I brought to your attention, but that's understandable since we truly need a new thread. I'll finish what I'm on for now then start one.

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Re: A Fresh Look At Jesus' Prophecies
« Reply #14 on: Tue Jun 09, 2020 - 12:31:19 »
Sir, What are you thinking? Trusting in a reprobate historian? You should read more about him. The man was a traitor and jumped from side to side depending upon when it was advantageous to him. But that's not even the point. The point is that this reprobate cannot be the arbiter of scripture. Why do not you see this?
There is quite a difference between giving weight to something as Scripture, and giving it weight like any other history.

Would you seriously suggest that we all completely ignore all history outside of that which is in Scripture?  That seems like willful blindness.

Jarrod

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Re: A Fresh Look At Jesus' Prophecies
« Reply #15 on: Tue Jun 09, 2020 - 13:10:55 »
Jarrod:

    Appreciate your remarks to RB. I'm curious as to where, and from whom, he collected all of those personality and lifestyle defects ["rumors"] he attributes to Josephus?

    Also, it might be best that he reject all historians and their writings because all of them have experienced personality and lifestyle defects, of one kind or another.

    Too, it might be wise that he step aside and take time to practice up on "logistical reasoning."

Buff
« Last Edit: Tue Jun 09, 2020 - 13:14:05 by Reformer »

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Re: A Fresh Look At Jesus' Prophecies
« Reply #16 on: Tue Jun 09, 2020 - 13:30:56 »
Jarrod:

    Appreciate your remarks to RB. I'm curious as to where, and from whom, he collected all of those personality and lifestyle defects ["rumors"] he attributes to Josephus?
I would think they came from Josephus own writing.   ::lookaround::

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Re: A Fresh Look At Jesus' Prophecies
« Reply #17 on: Tue Jun 09, 2020 - 14:17:14 »
Too, it might be wise that he step aside and take time to practice up on "logistical reasoning."
Maybe that's not the phrase you meant, for Christianity is not a business where there are detailed organizations and implementation of a complex operation~maybe to some, but not to me. But in teaching the scriptures one does use the source of truth which is the word of God which is complementary to sound logic.

Sound logic~A deductive argument is said to be valid if and only if it takes a form that makes it impossible for the premises to be true and the conclusion nevertheless to be false. ... A deductive argument is sound if and only if it is both valid, and all of its premises are actually true. Otherwise, a deductive argument is unsound. AGAIN: A deductive argument is sound if and only if it is both valid, and all of its premises are actually true. Otherwise, a deductive argument is unsound. ... In effect, an argument is valid if the truth of the premises .......................WHICH THE WORD OF GOD logically guarantees the truth of the conclusion. Thereby, I do not trust or look outside of the scriptures for any "extra-biblical" help to supply me with the means of understanding God's truth.
Quote from: Wycliffes_Shillelagh on: Today at 12:31:19
Would you seriously suggest that we all completely ignore all history outside of that which is in Scripture?
Never said that, and do not believe that. Just that there are no books outside of the scriptures that are needed BEFORE we can come to the knowledge of its truth. In other words~truth is CONTAINED solely within the scriptures, not outside of them, I'm saying no more than this.


« Last Edit: Tue Jun 09, 2020 - 14:20:52 by RB »

Offline TrevorL

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Re: A Fresh Look At Jesus' Prophecies
« Reply #18 on: Tue Jun 09, 2020 - 17:07:56 »
Greetings again RB,
I will start a new thread. I truly have no favorite scriptures per se on such subjects~nevertheless, I will address any scriptures you desire which is a fair request, even though not a word was said about the ones I brought to your attention, but that's understandable since we truly need a new thread. I'll finish what I'm on for now then start one.
I also suggest that the literal Jerusalem is a significant part of Luke 21:24 and as such this is still a part of this thread. It is literal Jerusalem that was desolated by the Romans, and it was literal Jerusalem that was to be trodden down for the period of the times of the Gentiles, and the period of 2300 years of down-treading by the Gentiles terminated in 1967, setting up some of the circumstances of Zechariah 14 and Ezekiel 38. The 2300 has an important fulfilment from BC 334-333 to AD 1967. I will look at your anticipated thread if it arrives and if it has any reasonable discussion.

Kind regards
Trevor

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Re: A Fresh Look At Jesus' Prophecies
« Reply #19 on: Wed Jun 10, 2020 - 03:46:27 »
+1 Manna to Reformer for this post and series. I think he has the truth on this matter.

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Re: A Fresh Look At Jesus' Prophecies
« Reply #20 on: Wed Jun 10, 2020 - 22:36:46 »

Johntwayne:

Thank you for your kindly remarks.

Buff

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Re: A Fresh Look At Jesus' Prophecies
« Reply #21 on: Wed Jun 10, 2020 - 23:35:21 »
DOES RB REALLY BELIEVE EVERYTHING
HE WRITES?

"...truth is CONTAINED solely within the scriptures, not outside of them."

    This is like saying, "Facts and reality are found solely within the scriptures. No truths exist outside the scriptures."

    RB, I have followed and read from many readers on GraceCentered for years, but I must admit you seem to be among the most illogical and anti-analytical. I'm not saying this to offend you. I hope only you can see the thrust of where I'm coming from.

    Surely you must be aware that Paul clearly says, "For His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature...are clearly perceived...in the things that have been made"—namely His creation, "so they  are without excuse. For although they knew God [through creation], they did not honor Him as God or give thanks to Him" [Rom. 1:18-23].

    Paul is saying in substance, "Divine truth can be seen in the things that have been made"—creation. The man in the darkest part of the earth, without any scriptures, can see divinity or "His eternal power and divine nature" by observing what has been made. He does not have a copy of your Bible, nor a copy of any scripture, yet he is able to see God, or an eternal power, "in the things that have been made."

   My point? Truth exists outside of scripture, exactly the opposite of what you said. But a question or two: Did truth exist outside of scripture in Noah's day? Did it exist outside of scripture in Adam's day?

    Let me try to enlighten you. Internal and external evidence exists of a Supernatural Power, namely God. Paul says as much in the Roman scriptures quoted above. External evidence of facts and truths consists of many writings, whether biblical writings or non-biblical writings.

    You and I are two examples. Our vocabulary and our pens consist of many truths, facts, and realities. This is external evidence. The heavens proclaim the existence and power of our God. This, too, is external evidence. The biblical writers, who were inspired of God, provided internal evidence of our God and creation.

    Let me suggest that you form the practice of slowing down and thinking deeper before posting some of you conclusions and deductions. I promise you—you will feel better afterwards.

Buff
« Last Edit: Wed Jun 10, 2020 - 23:44:47 by Reformer »

Offline RB

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Re: A Fresh Look At Jesus' Prophecies
« Reply #22 on: Thu Jun 11, 2020 - 05:46:04 »
I'm not saying this to offend you.
I'm not easily offended, if I allow men's words to offend me, I would have quit this race many years ago, and said....this is not for me. I'm reminded of such scriptures as this one:
Quote from: JESUS CHRIST
Matthew 5:5~"Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth."
We all know that the meek are “persons of mild and gentle dispositions, who are not easily provoked by injuries, who are not ready to take offense, but are prepared to endure anything rather than do the like actions to wicked men.” Meek people do not lack assertiveness, nor are they wishy-washy. Moses was meek (Numbers 12:3), but he was not weak or cowardly. To me, being meek means being aware of our limitations, enabling us to be gentle and good to others (James 3:13–18). When we are meek we understand that we are just as guilty before God as the next person, and we, therefore, find it difficult, or better yet, almost impossible to hold grudges against those who offend us or attempt to correct us, even if we know that they are wrong in correcting us, or whatever the case may be.
Quote from: Reformer on: Yesterday at 23:35:21
DOES RB REALLY BELIEVE EVERYTHING HE WRITES?
Of course, I do, and generally have given it many thoughts over the years~ I very seldom speak without having formed a scriptural opinion base of what God word said concerning every word spoken and every deed done by me~is that not what Christians supposed to do? Do you have a better way of doing things that I'm missing? I'm NOT my own, I have been brought with a price, and I now belong to another Master, even Jesus Christ who purchased me with his own blood, so all my thoughts and deeds must be subjected to his will and his will alone. My Master lived by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God, so I just follow his steps~is this not wise, I think it is.
Quote from: Reformer on: Yesterday at 23:35:21
"...truth is CONTAINED solely within the scriptures, not outside of them."

    This is like saying, "Facts and reality are found solely within the scriptures. No truths exist outside the scriptures."
Without going into the philosophy of the differences between facts and truth I think it would be wise at the moment to say that ALL I'm saying in that statement is this:  I Believe in Sola Scriptura. Let me spend some time here explaining myself clearly, and after that, if you still have a problem with my position then it's is your problem, not mine.

Sola Scriptura~As you know was coined by the Reformation church during the 1500's. It means "Scripture solely" or "Scripture alone." By these words, the faithful Christian church of this era took a stand for the Biblical principle that the Bible was God's wholey inspired and infallible Word, and as such was the sole ultimate rule of faith and practice for the church. It illustrated that by definition, the Word of God must be the supreme authority over the beliefs of men, and not (as some had supposed) the Roman Catholic church, its magisterium or the Pope, or ANY writings of man was NOT suppose to be used as a necessity of understanding the scriptures. Since the position of the Roman church was mutually exclusive to both this and those faithful Christians who protested it (and thus were labeled, Protestants), both views obviously could not be correct. If the faithful Christian was going to stand on God's Word alone as the ultimate authority of believers, then there would have to be a "Reforming" of that church. There had to be a restoration of the position of the infallible law of God, that the church at the time had fallen away from. This Protestant Reformation is akin to a law breaker or criminal having seen the error of his ways and turned from them to reform, that he might obey those laws. They were laws that were always there, always in effect, but that he had previously neglected. In like manner, these faithful Christians understood that the church of Rome had erred, and thus had to return to its former obedience to the Word of God, rather than of men. Another good analogy for this faithful restoration is found in the Old Testament where Hilkiah the Priest brought the law of God (that had been previously disregarded) to King Josiah. Upon reading God's law that had been neglected by the people, Josiah's eyes were opened and he understood this principle of having to reform or restore the God's congregation to faithful adherence to God's laws.
Quote
2nd Kings 22:10-13~"And Shaphan the scribe shewed the king, saying, Hilkiah the priest hath delivered me a book. And Shaphan read it before the king. And it came to pass, when the king had heard the words of the book of the law, that he rent his clothes. And the king commanded Hilkiah the priest, and Ahikam the son of Shaphan, and Achbor the son of Michaiah, and Shaphan the scribe, and Asahiah a servant of the king's, saying, Go ye, enquire of the LORD for me, and for the people, and for all Judah, concerning the words of this book that is found: for great is the wrath of the LORD that is kindled against us, because our fathers have not harkened unto the words of this book, to do according unto all that which is written concerning us."
Since the Bible "is" the Word of God (as even all Christians whole heartily agree), then it's only rational, Biblical, and logical to profess that no "other" authority can either contradict it, be on a par with it, or be above it, or knowing history is imperative BEFORE one can be assured of its eschatology teaching;  i.e., there is no authority higher than God's Word (what word supersedes God's?) and no word that is on a par with it (what word is as good as God's?). Therefore, logically, Biblically, and rationally speaking, in order for someone's word to be on a par with God's Word, they must take the stand for Sola Scriptura, if not, then one would be considered as illogical, and irrational and for having a lack of faith in the scriptures as alone being the sole source of BIBLICAL truth.
Quote
    Surely you must be aware that Paul clearly says, "For His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature...are clearly perceived...in the things that have been made"—namely His creation, "so they  are without excuse. For although they knew God [through creation], they did not honor Him as God or give thanks to Him" [Rom. 1:18-23].

    Paul is saying in substance, "Divine truth can be seen in the things that have been made"—creation. The man in the darkest part of the earth, without any scriptures, can see divinity or "His eternal power and divine nature" by observing what has been made. He does not have a copy of your Bible, nor a copy of any scripture, yet he is able to see God, or an eternal power, "in the things that have been made."

   My point? Truth exists outside of scripture, exactly the opposite of what you said. But a question or two: Did truth exist outside of scripture in Noah's day? Did it exist outside of scripture in Adam's day?
This is not the same as what I contend for. It is true that the heavens DECLARE the glory of God and are a faithful witness day unto day from one end of heaven unto the other end of heaven. The SCRIPTURES alone are profitable for DOCTRINE, especially so in teachings on eschatology...well, any truths. Creation declares God's power and glory but leaves us without any knowledge of this Glorious Being. The scriptures were given for this very reason.
Quote from: Paul
2nd Timothy 3:16,17~All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works."
The holy scriptures give us so much more understanding than creation could ever give. Creation is just a beautiful picture of the work of a Mighty Being, yet the word of God REVEALS this Great God to us.   

   

Offline Reformer

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Re: A Fresh Look At Jesus' Prophecies
« Reply #23 on: Thu Jun 11, 2020 - 12:49:48 »
RB:

"...truth is CONTAINED solely within the scriptures, not outside of them."

    Without writing another book to answer, please give us a simple reply. Does any truth exist outside of scripture?

    But another question, Did any truth exist prior to any scripture being written?

    I beg you again, please do not burden us with another book. Most of us have busy schedules.

Buff

Offline RB

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Re: A Fresh Look At Jesus' Prophecies
« Reply #24 on: Thu Jun 11, 2020 - 13:40:50 »
Without writing another book to answer, please give us a simple reply. Does any truth exist outside of scripture?
Of course~But biblical doctrine is found " only " in the written word of God.....In the inspired holy scriptures.
Quote from: Reformer on: Today at 12:49:48
But another question, Did any truth exist prior to any scripture being written?
Yes, ALL words spoken by God to OT prophets like Noah, Enoch, etc.

Examples are helpful:
Quote
Hebrews 1:1~"God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
Again:
Quote
Jude verse 14~"And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,"
There much more:
Quote
Hebrews 11:7~"By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.
Quote from: Peter
2nd Peter 2:5~"And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;

There is more, but since you do not like to be burden with the words of others~ I'll stop.

Sir, if you believe you have the truth, PLEASE BURDEN ME WITH IT, for life's sunset is just over the hill from where I'm now traveling and I'm here for ONE REASON to find TRUTH before it sets on me............I have no time for Jewish fables or fables by men who speak just because they think that the wisdom of God was born with them and with them shall die. 
« Last Edit: Thu Jun 11, 2020 - 13:45:27 by RB »

Offline Reformer

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Re: A Fresh Look At Jesus' Prophecies
« Reply #25 on: Thu Jun 11, 2020 - 21:39:14 »

RB:

    Well, thank you for admitting there is truth outside the scriptures. Your "confession," of course, is a sample of honesty, although it does not coincide with "...truth is CONTAINED solely within the scriptures, not outside of them."

    We all need, and that includes me, to double-check our assertions and pronouncements to make certain they are phrased, rephrased, and constructed correctly. They will then reveal the true meaning of what we are trying to advocate.

    I think we both have said enough on this issue, so I am closing out on my part of it.

Thanks again,

Buff

Offline RB

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Re: A Fresh Look At Jesus' Prophecies
« Reply #26 on: Sun Jun 14, 2020 - 14:32:47 »
Greetings again RB, I suggest that I have already discussed the scope of my understanding already in this thread. If and when you adequately answer the verses that I have already mentioned, say Isaiah 2:1-4, Zechariah 14 and Acts 3:19-21 then I will possibly join you either here or a new thread. If you only quote a few of your favourite verses which say “Jerusalem above” or “heavenly city” then I will not respond.

Kind regards
Trevor
Trevor for sake of time please consider this thread: to save time start around post 94 http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/end-times-forum/heavenly-temple/70/     http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/theology/symbols-in-matthew-24-luke-21/

Offline TrevorL

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Re: A Fresh Look At Jesus' Prophecies
« Reply #27 on: Sun Jun 14, 2020 - 23:39:50 »
Greetings again RB,
Trevor for sake of time please consider this thread: to save time start around post 94 http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/end-times-forum/heavenly-temple/70/     http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/theology/symbols-in-matthew-24-luke-21/
I am interested in a simple clear response to my comments on Luke 21:24 where it speaks about literal Jerusalem in AD 70, in the long intervening period and the present last days.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

     
anything