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Offline Watchman

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Re: A study of Faith
« Reply #70 on: Sat Aug 24, 2019 - 13:24:46 »
Absolutely baptism is minute compared to belief, and you can’t be saved without belief even if you are dunked 10 times. But baptism is essential just as confessing with our lips, due of course to sentence structure  and not a contrivance of mine.

Depends on what your believing (faithing) in. At the start of the salvation journey, We don't have the Spirit of Christ yet. So Christ, His word and the promises in His word are not ours to claim yet. So believing or faithing into Him, His word, orHis promises would-be illegitimate. No covenant or contract yet.

That can only happen by believing ( faithing) into Him correctly. Which is just how the Greek dictionary defines pisteuo. By a personal surrender to Him and a life inspired by such surrender

Then " believing" as a part of the complete understanding of saving Faith, would be " believing" that he has accepted the surrendered life,

When true saving Faith, pisteuo is being fulfilled correctly, HE is doing the accepting, , NOT us!


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Re: A study of Faith
« Reply #70 on: Sat Aug 24, 2019 - 13:24:46 »

Offline Watchman

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Re: A study of Faith
« Reply #71 on: Sat Aug 24, 2019 - 13:38:02 »
No, that is not correct.  Greek, as in English, differentiates between believing something or someone and believing IN something of someone.  In Greek , believing IN something or someone, is typically πιστεύω [pisteuō] plus ἐν [en], εἰς [eis] or similar appropriate preposition.

There's no such thing as believing in the Greek language. It was mistranslated into the English language, we need to be careful not to mistranslate it back out of the English, stamping it back onto the Greek.

The words the English language should have had for the translators are faithe, faither, and faithing. With these correct words it would have been understood that "believing" would have been a part of pisteuo, but not the whole of it

Pisteuo being a verb, is an act, based upon a Belief, sustained by confidence. 3 specific parts that are perfectly defined in the Vines Greek dictionary. The Strong's even gives a disclaimer, it says" pisteuo means NOT just to believe."

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Re: A study of Faith
« Reply #71 on: Sat Aug 24, 2019 - 13:38:02 »

Offline Jaime

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Re: A study of Faith
« Reply #72 on: Sat Aug 24, 2019 - 13:50:05 »
Watchman, we except the gospel call by believing, repenting, confessing Him with our lips and yes by being baptized INTO Christ. It’s ALL OF the ABOVE. This is  milk of the word Stuff, not some exotic fringe stuff.

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Re: A study of Faith
« Reply #72 on: Sat Aug 24, 2019 - 13:50:05 »

Offline 4WD

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Re: A study of Faith
« Reply #73 on: Sat Aug 24, 2019 - 14:11:16 »
There's no such thing as believing in the Greek language. It was mistranslated into the English language, we need to be careful not to mistranslate it back out of the English, stamping it back onto the Greek.

The words the English language should have had for the translators are faithe, faither, and faithing. With these correct words it would have been understood that "believing" would have been a part of pisteuo, but not the whole of it

Pisteuo being a verb, is an act, based upon a Belief, sustained by confidence. 3 specific parts that are perfectly defined in the Vines Greek dictionary. The Strong's even gives a disclaimer, it says" pisteuo means NOT just to believe."
Wrong ! ! !

There are no such English words as faithe, faither, and faithing.  The word faith is a noun.  There is no verb form, specifically. 

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Re: A study of Faith
« Reply #73 on: Sat Aug 24, 2019 - 14:11:16 »

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Re: A study of Faith
« Reply #74 on: Sat Aug 24, 2019 - 15:04:53 »
Wrong ! ! !

There are no such English words as faithe, faither, and faithing.  The word faith is a noun.  There is no verb form, specifically.

That's why I said the English words we should have had for the translators.

There's no verb form period.

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Re: A study of Faith
« Reply #74 on: Sat Aug 24, 2019 - 15:04:53 »



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Re: A study of Faith
« Reply #75 on: Sat Aug 24, 2019 - 15:30:18 »
Wrong ! ! !

There are no such English words as faithe, faither, and faithing.  The word faith is a noun.  There is no verb form, specifically.

I thought you knew alot of this already. That's why I was so excited to talk with you.

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Re: A study of Faith
« Reply #75 on: Sat Aug 24, 2019 - 15:30:18 »

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Re: A study of Faith
« Reply #76 on: Sat Aug 24, 2019 - 16:31:55 »
All I'm presenting here is the word the Greek authors used to communicate what NT saving Faith is, pisteuo. The correct definition of pisteuo. Showing how and why pisteuo couldn't be translated into the English language correctly. And highlighting the result of this mistranslation.

All of these things I've presented are facts, not opinions.

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Re: A study of Faith
« Reply #77 on: Sat Aug 24, 2019 - 17:41:48 »
That's why I said the English words we should have had for the translators.

There's no verb form period.
Of course there is. The English translation of the Greek verb πιστεύω [pisteuo] is "believe".  The English translation of the Greek πιστεύω ἐν  [pisteuo en] is "believe in".  Those express two different things altogether, in both Greek and English.  The whole Bible could be translated quite effectively without ever using the English noun "faith" or its verb counterpart "have faith".  In fact it is the nuanced meaning attached to the English word "faith", which does not really appear in the Greek, that causes so much difficulty and error.

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Re: A study of Faith
« Reply #78 on: Sat Aug 24, 2019 - 17:53:36 »
Of course there is. The English translation of the Greek verb πιστεύω [pisteuo] is "believe".  The English translation of the Greek πιστεύω ἐν  [pisteuo en] is "believe in".  Those express two different things altogether, in both Greek and English.  The whole Bible could be translated quite effectively without ever using the English noun "faith" or its verb counterpart "have faith".  In fact it is the nuanced meaning attached to the English word "faith", which does not really appear in the Greek, that causes so much difficulty and error.

I respect your understanding, where did you learn or come across these things your presenting?

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Re: A study of Faith
« Reply #78 on: Sat Aug 24, 2019 - 17:53:36 »

Offline 4WD

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Re: A study of Faith
« Reply #79 on: Sat Aug 24, 2019 - 17:55:48 »
.....where did you learn or come across these things your presenting?
Studying for the last 80+ years.

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Re: A study of Faith
« Reply #80 on: Sat Aug 24, 2019 - 18:59:03 »
Studying for the last 80+ years.

On your own?  Any specific influences?

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Re: A study of Faith
« Reply #81 on: Sat Aug 24, 2019 - 19:39:44 »
Quote
author=Watchman link=topic=104351.msg1055146190#msg1055146190 date=1566682315]
All I'm presenting here is the word the Greek authors used to communicate what NT saving Faith is, pisteuo. The correct definition of pisteuo. Showing how and why pisteuo couldn't be translated into the English language correctly. And highlighting the result of this mistranslation.

All of these things I've presented are facts, not opinions.

If I may, the instruction from the Apostles of the Christ of the Bible is to study the Scriptures to show our self approved of God.

2 Tim. 3:13 But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.

14 But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them; 15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
 
Tim. 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. 16 But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.

Rom. 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith. 18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

The only Scriptures available to the Apostles of Christ, and the only Scriptures the Christ taught from was the Law and Prophets. These are the Holy Scriptures which Paul taught makes us wise unto Salvation which is through Faith in Jesus Christ.
Paul's Letters were not added until years after his death.

As you said, this is not opinion, but simply Biblical Fact.

So it seems that if a man follows the instructions the Spirit of Christ gave to His Apostles, then this man would study the Law and Prophets to understand Salvation which is of Faith.


The first time God used the word Faith, in the KJV at least, was Duet. 32.

Duet 32:18 Of the Rock that begat thee thou art unmindful, and hast forgotten God that formed thee.

19 And when the LORD saw it, he abhorred them, because of the provoking of his sons, and of his daughters.

20 And he said, I will hide my face from them, I will see what their end shall be: for they are a very froward generation, children in whom is no faith.

The Hebrew word for Faith is this context is אמונה "emuwn" pronounced "ay-moon" It means "established", "Trusty" also "Trustworthyness" :- Faith, Truth.

In the verse Paul quoted from within the Gospel of Christ, "The just shall live by Faith" the Hebrew word.

emunah, pernounced em-oo-naw; It means firmness, security, fidelity, set office, stability, steady, truly, truth, verily.

In the Letters added to the Law and Prophets years after Paul had died, there was a list of those who had this Faith. Heb. 11 gives us many examples of the Faithful. And Paul tells us these were written for examples for our admonition and so that we don't make the same mistakes many of the early "believers" made. Every single one of these examples of faith was taken from the Law and Prophets Paul teaches us to study.


If I study and believe (have faith)in what is written in the Law and Prophets that Paul believed in.

Acts 24:14 But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:

And if I let these Holy Scriptures teach be doctrine, let them correct me, let them teach me what Faith in the Rock is, and let them define God's Righteousness, then I will have the same foundation Paul and Peter, along with their Teacher and Savior Jesus the Christ had.

I will have the same Faith they had.


But if I reject their instruction, and try to understand God's Righteousness, without studying the same Scriptures which made them wise unto Salvation which is through Faith in the Christ Jesus, which created their doctrine for them, which corrected them, then how can I understand where they are coming from, or how can I understand their foundation? The truth is I can't, no one can.

 I believe this is the reason there are so many differing doctrines and religions, confusion about what Faith means, from religious folks all claiming the same God as their God.

For me, since I have followed their instruction, there is no confusion as to what the word Faith means. I have the examples the Christ had written for my admonition, and I have Him as an example of a man whose foundation is established by the Law and Prophets.


I also have the examples of those "unfaithful" "untrusty" and "untruthful" people who forgot the Rock which was guiding them and proved them in the wilderness, and that Rock was Christ.

I think today, as back then, people just don't trust Him enough to follow His instruction, as did those who were overthrown in the wilderness. "Of the Rock that begat the, thou art unmindful".

Heb. 12:1 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,

2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

I don't believe there is any understanding of Faith without trusting the instruction of the God requiring it.








Offline 4WD

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Re: A study of Faith
« Reply #82 on: Sat Aug 24, 2019 - 20:19:52 »
On your own?
  No, of course not. 
Quote
Any specific influences?
Far too many to even begin to elaborate.

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Re: A study of Faith
« Reply #83 on: Sat Aug 24, 2019 - 20:44:28 »
If I may, the instruction from the Apostles of the Christ of the Bible is to study the Scriptures to show our self approved of God.

2 Tim. 3:13 But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.

14 But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them; 15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
 
Tim. 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. 16 But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.

Rom. 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith. 18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

The only Scriptures available to the Apostles of Christ, and the only Scriptures the Christ taught from was the Law and Prophets. These are the Holy Scriptures which Paul taught makes us wise unto Salvation which is through Faith in Jesus Christ.
Paul's Letters were not added until years after his death.

As you said, this is not opinion, but simply Biblical Fact.

So it seems that if a man follows the instructions the Spirit of Christ gave to His Apostles, then this man would study the Law and Prophets to understand Salvation which is of Faith.


The first time God used the word Faith, in the KJV at least, was Duet. 32.

Duet 32:18 Of the Rock that begat thee thou art unmindful, and hast forgotten God that formed thee.

19 And when the LORD saw it, he abhorred them, because of the provoking of his sons, and of his daughters.

20 And he said, I will hide my face from them, I will see what their end shall be: for they are a very froward generation, children in whom is no faith.

The Hebrew word for Faith is this context is אמונה "emuwn" pronounced "ay-moon" It means "established", "Trusty" also "Trustworthyness" :- Faith, Truth.

In the verse Paul quoted from within the Gospel of Christ, "The just shall live by Faith" the Hebrew word.

emunah, pernounced em-oo-naw; It means firmness, security, fidelity, set office, stability, steady, truly, truth, verily.

In the Letters added to the Law and Prophets years after Paul had died, there was a list of those who had this Faith. Heb. 11 gives us many examples of the Faithful. And Paul tells us these were written for examples for our admonition and so that we don't make the same mistakes many of the early "believers" made. Every single one of these examples of faith was taken from the Law and Prophets Paul teaches us to study.


If I study and believe (have faith)in what is written in the Law and Prophets that Paul believed in.

Acts 24:14 But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:

And if I let these Holy Scriptures teach be doctrine, let them correct me, let them teach me what Faith in the Rock is, and let them define God's Righteousness, then I will have the same foundation Paul and Peter, along with their Teacher and Savior Jesus the Christ had.

I will have the same Faith they had.


But if I reject their instruction, and try to understand God's Righteousness, without studying the same Scriptures which made them wise unto Salvation which is through Faith in the Christ Jesus, which created their doctrine for them, which corrected them, then how can I understand where they are coming from, or how can I understand their foundation? The truth is I can't, no one can.

 I believe this is the reason there are so many differing doctrines and religions, confusion about what Faith means, from religious folks all claiming the same God as their God.

For me, since I have followed their instruction, there is no confusion as to what the word Faith means. I have the examples the Christ had written for my admonition, and I have Him as an example of a man whose foundation is established by the Law and Prophets.


I also have the examples of those "unfaithful" "untrusty" and "untruthful" people who forgot the Rock which was guiding them and proved them in the wilderness, and that Rock was Christ.

I think today, as back then, people just don't trust Him enough to follow His instruction, as did those who were overthrown in the wilderness. "Of the Rock that begat the, thou art unmindful".

Heb. 12:1 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,

2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

I don't believe there is any understanding of Faith without trusting the instruction of the God requiring it.

At the very start, Faith applied, pisteuo, a personal surrender to Him and a life inspired by such surrender, is the only act of Faith that can correctly respond to the call of the Father. If done daily, is genuine, and increased, it will eventually result in recieving the Spirit of Christ. At that point and not before May we Faithe in His word and promises because we faithed into God Himself first.

The relationship can't start any other way. A covenant, a contract must be made and maintained with Jesus, a real living person.

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Re: A study of Faith
« Reply #84 on: Sat Aug 24, 2019 - 20:47:40 »
If I may, the instruction from the Apostles of the Christ of the Bible is to study the Scriptures to show our self approved of God.

2 Tim. 3:13 But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.

14 But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them; 15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
 
Tim. 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. 16 But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.

Rom. 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith. 18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

The only Scriptures available to the Apostles of Christ, and the only Scriptures the Christ taught from was the Law and Prophets. These are the Holy Scriptures which Paul taught makes us wise unto Salvation which is through Faith in Jesus Christ.
Paul's Letters were not added until years after his death.

As you said, this is not opinion, but simply Biblical Fact.

So it seems that if a man follows the instructions the Spirit of Christ gave to His Apostles, then this man would study the Law and Prophets to understand Salvation which is of Faith.


The first time God used the word Faith, in the KJV at least, was Duet. 32.

Duet 32:18 Of the Rock that begat thee thou art unmindful, and hast forgotten God that formed thee.

19 And when the LORD saw it, he abhorred them, because of the provoking of his sons, and of his daughters.

20 And he said, I will hide my face from them, I will see what their end shall be: for they are a very froward generation, children in whom is no faith.

The Hebrew word for Faith is this context is אמונה "emuwn" pronounced "ay-moon" It means "established", "Trusty" also "Trustworthyness" :- Faith, Truth.

In the verse Paul quoted from within the Gospel of Christ, "The just shall live by Faith" the Hebrew word.

emunah, pernounced em-oo-naw; It means firmness, security, fidelity, set office, stability, steady, truly, truth, verily.

In the Letters added to the Law and Prophets years after Paul had died, there was a list of those who had this Faith. Heb. 11 gives us many examples of the Faithful. And Paul tells us these were written for examples for our admonition and so that we don't make the same mistakes many of the early "believers" made. Every single one of these examples of faith was taken from the Law and Prophets Paul teaches us to study.


If I study and believe (have faith)in what is written in the Law and Prophets that Paul believed in.

Acts 24:14 But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:

And if I let these Holy Scriptures teach be doctrine, let them correct me, let them teach me what Faith in the Rock is, and let them define God's Righteousness, then I will have the same foundation Paul and Peter, along with their Teacher and Savior Jesus the Christ had.

I will have the same Faith they had.


But if I reject their instruction, and try to understand God's Righteousness, without studying the same Scriptures which made them wise unto Salvation which is through Faith in the Christ Jesus, which created their doctrine for them, which corrected them, then how can I understand where they are coming from, or how can I understand their foundation? The truth is I can't, no one can.

 I believe this is the reason there are so many differing doctrines and religions, confusion about what Faith means, from religious folks all claiming the same God as their God.

For me, since I have followed their instruction, there is no confusion as to what the word Faith means. I have the examples the Christ had written for my admonition, and I have Him as an example of a man whose foundation is established by the Law and Prophets.


I also have the examples of those "unfaithful" "untrusty" and "untruthful" people who forgot the Rock which was guiding them and proved them in the wilderness, and that Rock was Christ.

I think today, as back then, people just don't trust Him enough to follow His instruction, as did those who were overthrown in the wilderness. "Of the Rock that begat the, thou art unmindful".

Heb. 12:1 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,

2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

I don't believe there is any understanding of Faith without trusting the instruction of the God requiring it.

Thanks for taking the time to express your understanding.

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Re: A study of Faith
« Reply #85 on: Thu Sep 05, 2019 - 20:26:16 »
                                        A MESSAGE FOR EVERYONE OF YOU

Luke 8:1 NLT - “Soon afterward Jesus began a tour of the nearby towns and villages, preaching and announcing the Good News about the Kingdom of God. He took his twelve disciples with him.”

When I read this verse I joined in my imagination to their group, because I wanted to see how Jesus taught and united His disciples. They were with Him in the house, at the table, in the field. They accompanied Him on His journeys, shared His trials and hardships, and, when they could, helped Him in His work. I saw how Jesus sent the multitude away and after that He went into the house. Then His disciples came to Him, saying, “Explain to us the parable…” Matt. 13:36.

I saw how He taught them as they sat together on the mountainside, sometimes beside the sea, or from the fisherman's boat, sometimes as they walked by the way. Whenever He spoke to the multitude, the disciples formed an inner circle that they might lose nothing of His instruction. They were attentive listeners, eager to understand the truths they were to teach in all countries.

I saw in these first disciples a marked diversity. They were to be the world's teachers, and they represented widely varied types of character. They needed to come into unity of feeling, thought, and action. This unity was Christ's target. To this end He sought to BRING THEM TO A UNITY WITH HIMSELF. The burden of His work for them is expressed in His prayer to the Father, "21that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us.” John 17:21

Through PERSONAL ASSOCIATION Jesus impressed Himself on His disciples. ONLY BY SUCH COMMUNION -- the communion of mind with mind and heart with heart, of the human with the divine -- can be communicated that vitalizing energy that will change our lives.  Only life can generate life.

Then I remembered the words of John: 3We proclaim to you what we ourselves have actually seen and heard so that you may have fellowship with us. And OUR FELLOWSHIP IS WITH THE FATHER AND WITH HIS SON, JESUS CHRIST. 4We are writing these things so that you may fully share our joy.“ – 1 John 1:3.4 NLT

In this way I understood that what I had seen in my imagination it was the fellowship of Jesus with His disciples. And I understood that Jesus desires to have fellowship with me and with you, too; that He is knocking at the door of our hearts, and that WE HAVE TO OPEN their doors... (Rev. 3:20). MY CREATOR is knocking at my door!... Fantastic news!

Then I remembered that after His resurrection He ”knocked” at the ”door” of two discouraged disciples. He asked them, “What kind of conversation is this that you have with one another as you walk and are sad?” (Luke 24:17) ”27And beginning at Moses and all the Prophets, He expounded to them in all the Scriptures the things concerning Himself.” (v. 27).

And continuing to read, I came to verse 32. It says: ” 32And they said to one another, “Did not our heart BURN within us WHILE He talked with us on the road, and WHILE He opened the Scriptures to us?” Do you see? Their hearts were burning!... And what impact had their encounter with Jesus? ”33So they rose up THAT VERY HOUR and returned to Jerusalem, and found the eleven and those who were with them gathered together,…” (v. 33).

Fantastic! How can I have the same experience – my heart to burn when Jesus is talking to me?

[1] According to verse 32, my heart will “burn” WHILE Jesus is talking with me. This is an incredible news… Yes, my Creator is NOT knocking at my heart’s door/mind only to keep silence there… And He promised me: 27My sheep HEAR My voice, and I KNOW THEM, and they FOLLOW ME. 28And I GIVE THEM ETERNAL LIFE, and they shall NEVER PERISH; neither shall ANYONE SNATCH them out of My hand. 29My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and NO ONE IS ABLE TO SNATCH them out of My Father’s hand. John 10:27-29

According to the words of Jesus, the TRUE FAITH is this: (a) To trust in His promises; (b) to believe that Jesus is willing to talk to you (or to have fellowship with you); (c) to believe that you will learn how to hear and understand His voice; (d) to believe that if you are listening to His voice He know this and, as result of it, you will be able to follow/obey Him; (e) to believe that if you continue to have fellowship with Jesus, He will give you eternal life; (f) to believe that if you continue to have fellowship with Jesus, you will have a triple divine protection [Father’s, Son’s and Holy Spirit’s (Isa 59:19)].   

[2] According to verse 32, my heart will also “burn” WHILE JESUS IS OPENING to me/you [or explaining] the Scriptures about Him through the Holy Spirit.

Oh my Lord, I began to see that in many other places of the Bible You declared that fellowship with You is a clear condition for our salvation, for our everlasting life… Please, help my brothers to understand it and to apply it on the forum…

I think the group who kept here alive the flame of the faith, did a good work, because they put their heart in all they wrote… For a while that flame ceased to burn, but Watchman lighted it once again. Now I think that we have to bring Jesus in the centre of our discussions. In this occasion I will accentuate the need of a clearer gospel, with encouragements for our readers. And next we will START to experience IN GROUP, the fellowship with Jesus. (Of course, if you are willing to help this project).

                                                                          ****

We need practical teachings – HOW to believe or trust in Jesus, HOW to change my life, HOW to experience powerful prayers, HOW to surrender myself to Jesus and WHAT I must surrender, HOW to let the Holy Spirit to guide me, or HOW to read the Bible…

Salvation by faith has to be as simple as 2 + 2 = 4 and not as E = mc2 (which is Einstein's theory of relativity). Salvation must be simple enough for a child to understand… 

Luke 23:42, 43 is an incredible, twenty-two word exchange (depending on which Bible version you use) between a dying thief and a dying Savior. " 'Lord, remember me when You come into Your kingdom.' . . . 'Assuredly I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise.' " The thief found salvation very quickly. He went from lost to saved. There, we are looking at a sinner becoming a saint with only a two-sentence Bible study…

The story of the thief finding salvation is very simple. He saw himself as a great sinner. He looked at Jesus and listened to His words spoken at the cross. He saw on the face of Jesus love and divine holiness.

Notice that there, on the cross, he even insulted Jesus. (Matt. 27:44), but then, as a result of his repentance, he rebuked the other criminal, saying, “Don’t you fear God,” he said, “since you are under the same sentence? 41We are punished justly, for we are getting what our deeds deserve. But this man [Jesus] has done nothing wrong.” – Luke 23:40.41. What do you say: Is this a “fruit worthy of repentance”? (Matt. 3:8) Of course. There, on the cross, he received the gift of repentance!

He asked Jesus if he could be in heaven with Him. And Jesus said Yes. In Jesus, bruised, mocked, and hanging upon the cross, he saw his Redeemer, his only hope, and appealed to Him in humble faith. So, in this ten-second exchange, the thief went from lost to saved, from sinner to redeemed, from lawbreaker to law keeper, from son of the devil to son of the living God, from 100 percent wickedness to 100 percent righteousness, from sinner to saint, from hell and eternal damnation to heaven and eternal salvation.

It is possible that this man was in the multitude and listen to Jesus when He preached… Or maybe somebody told him about the sermons of Jesus… Maybe he already sympathized with Jesus, but the truth is that he was saved on the cross.

If you GIVE YOURSELF to Jesus (not only “believe about”!), and then accept Him as your Saviour, then, sinful as your life may have been, for His sake you are accounted righteous. Christ's character stands in place of your character, and you are accepted before God just as if you had not sinned.

However, we have much more spiritual light than it was in those days… Therefore you need to remember that we are looking at salvation at its irreducible minimum. We are looking at bottom-line salvation. Beginners' salvation.

John 1:12 is pretty simple: "As many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name."

1 John 5:11.12 is pretty simple: "And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. He who HAS the Son has life; he who does NOT HAVE the Son of God does not have life."

You see, I'm a great sinner. That's simple.
Jesus is a great Savior. That's simple.

IF I ask Him, as the thief did, to be my Savior and give me His salvation and to remember me in His kingdom, HE WILL. That's simple too.

The thief found RIGHTEOUSNESS by faith. The thief found SANCTIFICATION by faith. The thief found perfection by faith. The thief became without sin by faith. The thief found completeness by faith. The thief found salvation by faith.

Notice Col. 1:27. It says: “For God wanted them to know that the riches and glory of Christ are for you Gentiles, too. And this is the secret: CHRIST LIVES IN YOU. THIS GIVES YOU ASSURANCE OF SHARING HIS GLORY.” Are you with me? When you have Jesus by faith, then you have EVERYTHING by faith. You have all that he WAS and all that he DID by faith. Then, when God looks at you, all He sees is Jesus, His Son! This is fantastic news!…

" 'Lord, remember me when You come into Your kingdom.' . . . `Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise.' " But what about his baptism? There, on the cross, he experienced the change of his mind… He showed his willing to obey God… (But because you are not on the cross, you MUST accept the baptism by immersion…).

I want WHAT the thief found. I want WHOM the thief found. I want to turn to Jesus, the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world, in total helplessness, dependence, and trust, as the thief did. I want to rejoice and revel in the beauty and simplicity of salvation as a Christian can and should. And it is as simple as John 3:16… Salvation by faith – what wonderful gift for you and for me!...



Offline Watchman

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Re: A study of Faith
« Reply #86 on: Fri Sep 06, 2019 - 18:36:08 »
                                        A MESSAGE FOR EVERYONE OF YOU

Luke 8:1 NLT - “Soon afterward Jesus began a tour of the nearby towns and villages, preaching and announcing the Good News about the Kingdom of God. He took his twelve disciples with him.”

When I read this verse I joined in my imagination to their group, because I wanted to see how Jesus taught and united His disciples. They were with Him in the house, at the table, in the field. They accompanied Him on His journeys, shared His trials and hardships, and, when they could, helped Him in His work. I saw how Jesus sent the multitude away and after that He went into the house. Then His disciples came to Him, saying, “Explain to us the parable…” Matt. 13:36.

I saw how He taught them as they sat together on the mountainside, sometimes beside the sea, or from the fisherman's boat, sometimes as they walked by the way. Whenever He spoke to the multitude, the disciples formed an inner circle that they might lose nothing of His instruction. They were attentive listeners, eager to understand the truths they were to teach in all countries.

I saw in these first disciples a marked diversity. They were to be the world's teachers, and they represented widely varied types of character. They needed to come into unity of feeling, thought, and action. This unity was Christ's target. To this end He sought to BRING THEM TO A UNITY WITH HIMSELF. The burden of His work for them is expressed in His prayer to the Father, "21that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us.” John 17:21

Through PERSONAL ASSOCIATION Jesus impressed Himself on His disciples. ONLY BY SUCH COMMUNION -- the communion of mind with mind and heart with heart, of the human with the divine -- can be communicated that vitalizing energy that will change our lives.  Only life can generate life.

Then I remembered the words of John: 3We proclaim to you what we ourselves have actually seen and heard so that you may have fellowship with us. And OUR FELLOWSHIP IS WITH THE FATHER AND WITH HIS SON, JESUS CHRIST. 4We are writing these things so that you may fully share our joy.“ – 1 John 1:3.4 NLT

In this way I understood that what I had seen in my imagination it was the fellowship of Jesus with His disciples. And I understood that Jesus desires to have fellowship with me and with you, too; that He is knocking at the door of our hearts, and that WE HAVE TO OPEN their doors... (Rev. 3:20). MY CREATOR is knocking at my door!... Fantastic news!

Then I remembered that after His resurrection He ”knocked” at the ”door” of two discouraged disciples. He asked them, “What kind of conversation is this that you have with one another as you walk and are sad?” (Luke 24:17) ”27And beginning at Moses and all the Prophets, He expounded to them in all the Scriptures the things concerning Himself.” (v. 27).

And continuing to read, I came to verse 32. It says: ” 32And they said to one another, “Did not our heart BURN within us WHILE He talked with us on the road, and WHILE He opened the Scriptures to us?” Do you see? Their hearts were burning!... And what impact had their encounter with Jesus? ”33So they rose up THAT VERY HOUR and returned to Jerusalem, and found the eleven and those who were with them gathered together,…” (v. 33).

Fantastic! How can I have the same experience – my heart to burn when Jesus is talking to me?

[1] According to verse 32, my heart will “burn” WHILE Jesus is talking with me. This is an incredible news… Yes, my Creator is NOT knocking at my heart’s door/mind only to keep silence there… And He promised me: 27My sheep HEAR My voice, and I KNOW THEM, and they FOLLOW ME. 28And I GIVE THEM ETERNAL LIFE, and they shall NEVER PERISH; neither shall ANYONE SNATCH them out of My hand. 29My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and NO ONE IS ABLE TO SNATCH them out of My Father’s hand. John 10:27-29

According to the words of Jesus, the TRUE FAITH is this: (a) To trust in His promises; (b) to believe that Jesus is willing to talk to you (or to have fellowship with you); (c) to believe that you will learn how to hear and understand His voice; (d) to believe that if you are listening to His voice He know this and, as result of it, you will be able to follow/obey Him; (e) to believe that if you continue to have fellowship with Jesus, He will give you eternal life; (f) to believe that if you continue to have fellowship with Jesus, you will have a triple divine protection [Father’s, Son’s and Holy Spirit’s (Isa 59:19)].   

[2] According to verse 32, my heart will also “burn” WHILE JESUS IS OPENING to me/you [or explaining] the Scriptures about Him through the Holy Spirit.

Oh my Lord, I began to see that in many other places of the Bible You declared that fellowship with You is a clear condition for our salvation, for our everlasting life… Please, help my brothers to understand it and to apply it on the forum…

I think the group who kept here alive the flame of the faith, did a good work, because they put their heart in all they wrote… For a while that flame ceased to burn, but Watchman lighted it once again. Now I think that we have to bring Jesus in the centre of our discussions. In this occasion I will accentuate the need of a clearer gospel, with encouragements for our readers. And next we will START to experience IN GROUP, the fellowship with Jesus. (Of course, if you are willing to help this project).

                                                                          ****

We need practical teachings – HOW to believe or trust in Jesus, HOW to change my life, HOW to experience powerful prayers, HOW to surrender myself to Jesus and WHAT I must surrender, HOW to let the Holy Spirit to guide me, or HOW to read the Bible…

Salvation by faith has to be as simple as 2 + 2 = 4 and not as E = mc2 (which is Einstein's theory of relativity). Salvation must be simple enough for a child to understand… 

Luke 23:42, 43 is an incredible, twenty-two word exchange (depending on which Bible version you use) between a dying thief and a dying Savior. " 'Lord, remember me when You come into Your kingdom.' . . . 'Assuredly I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise.' " The thief found salvation very quickly. He went from lost to saved. There, we are looking at a sinner becoming a saint with only a two-sentence Bible study…

The story of the thief finding salvation is very simple. He saw himself as a great sinner. He looked at Jesus and listened to His words spoken at the cross. He saw on the face of Jesus love and divine holiness.

Notice that there, on the cross, he even insulted Jesus. (Matt. 27:44), but then, as a result of his repentance, he rebuked the other criminal, saying, “Don’t you fear God,” he said, “since you are under the same sentence? 41We are punished justly, for we are getting what our deeds deserve. But this man [Jesus] has done nothing wrong.” – Luke 23:40.41. What do you say: Is this a “fruit worthy of repentance”? (Matt. 3:8) Of course. There, on the cross, he received the gift of repentance!

He asked Jesus if he could be in heaven with Him. And Jesus said Yes. In Jesus, bruised, mocked, and hanging upon the cross, he saw his Redeemer, his only hope, and appealed to Him in humble faith. So, in this ten-second exchange, the thief went from lost to saved, from sinner to redeemed, from lawbreaker to law keeper, from son of the devil to son of the living God, from 100 percent wickedness to 100 percent righteousness, from sinner to saint, from hell and eternal damnation to heaven and eternal salvation.

It is possible that this man was in the multitude and listen to Jesus when He preached… Or maybe somebody told him about the sermons of Jesus… Maybe he already sympathized with Jesus, but the truth is that he was saved on the cross.

If you GIVE YOURSELF to Jesus (not only “believe about”!), and then accept Him as your Saviour, then, sinful as your life may have been, for His sake you are accounted righteous. Christ's character stands in place of your character, and you are accepted before God just as if you had not sinned.

However, we have much more spiritual light than it was in those days… Therefore you need to remember that we are looking at salvation at its irreducible minimum. We are looking at bottom-line salvation. Beginners' salvation.

John 1:12 is pretty simple: "As many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name."

1 John 5:11.12 is pretty simple: "And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. He who HAS the Son has life; he who does NOT HAVE the Son of God does not have life."

You see, I'm a great sinner. That's simple.
Jesus is a great Savior. That's simple.

IF I ask Him, as the thief did, to be my Savior and give me His salvation and to remember me in His kingdom, HE WILL. That's simple too.

The thief found RIGHTEOUSNESS by faith. The thief found SANCTIFICATION by faith. The thief found perfection by faith. The thief became without sin by faith. The thief found completeness by faith. The thief found salvation by faith.

Notice Col. 1:27. It says: “For God wanted them to know that the riches and glory of Christ are for you Gentiles, too. And this is the secret: CHRIST LIVES IN YOU. THIS GIVES YOU ASSURANCE OF SHARING HIS GLORY.” Are you with me? When you have Jesus by faith, then you have EVERYTHING by faith. You have all that he WAS and all that he DID by faith. Then, when God looks at you, all He sees is Jesus, His Son! This is fantastic news!…

" 'Lord, remember me when You come into Your kingdom.' . . . `Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise.' " But what about his baptism? There, on the cross, he experienced the change of his mind… He showed his willing to obey God… (But because you are not on the cross, you MUST accept the baptism by immersion…).

I want WHAT the thief found. I want WHOM the thief found. I want to turn to Jesus, the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world, in total helplessness, dependence, and trust, as the thief did. I want to rejoice and revel in the beauty and simplicity of salvation as a Christian can and should. And it is as simple as John 3:16… Salvation by faith – what wonderful gift for you and for me!...


You asked, " how do we surrender ourselves to Christ, what do we surrender to Christ?"

Those are the questions!

Any answers?

Offline Bimbo

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Re: A study of Faith
« Reply #87 on: Sun Sep 08, 2019 - 18:21:22 »
                                                             1. SELF-SURRENDER
                                                                  Introduction - 1

This is not “off topic”. The true sense of faith is “trust”. Therefore, trust in Jesus means you are willing to surrender yourself to Him.

I had prepared myself to start here a fellowship with Jesus among our group… Why? Because fellowship with Jesus is a condition for salvation and all of us must have this habit. However, the call of Watchman is so categorical that I cannot refuse to answer him, and in this case I have to change my topic about the importance of the fellowship with Jesus. Surrender is also a condition for our salvation.

OBJECTION - 1: This is WRONG, WRONG, WRONG!! Salvation comes “without money and without price” (Isa. 55:1, NKJV). I have listened to very many sermons on justification in which it was emphasized that justification is free, UNCONDITIONAL. We are “justified freely by His grace” (Rom.3:24, NKJV). And to that my heart responds with a fervent Amen. But surrender to God cannot be a condition for salvation; this is a great error… If justification and salvation are free, where do you place self-surrender, which seems to suggest the giving up of freedom?

Do you see? I wrote only a few lines regarding self-surrender and already I am shot with a gun of big calibre… Fortunately, this objection is an intelligent one; I mean it is based on the Bible, and therefore I must consider it. The sender is sincere, but he have some MISSING LINKS/VERSES in his memory. I have to have patience with him. Sometimes that is the cause of contradictions on our forum…

SOME CONDITIONS FOR SALVATION:

•   FAITH. The sender forgot to say that “unconditional” is not even without any conditions. For example, the first condition is faith. "The just shall live by faith." Romans 1:17.

•   “THIRSTY”, “COME” and “DESIRES”. Rev. 22:17 NLT

•   REPENT and BE BAPTIZED. On the day of Pentecost, the Jews in Jerusalem who were convicted by Peter's preaching wanted to know what they should do to receive salvation. Peter answered,  “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins." - Acts 2:38.

The first word is “repent.” Repentance must be joined with faith. It precedes the receiving of salvation. How essential is it? Jesus said, "I tell you….unless you repent you will all likewise perish." Luke 13:3. True repentance is a GIFT from God just as much as is the forgiveness of sins. See Acts 5:31; 11:18. You can repent only as the Holy Spirit convicts you of sin. Be sure to repent when He gives you the opportunity. In conclusion, repentance is a gift of God, but at the same time it is our responsibility to repent ourselves. How? We have to ask repentance and surrender to God for it (or to permit Him to change our minds, through repentance).

•      OBEDIENCE. "...the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey Him."   

•      EATING JESUS’ FLESH.“Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. ” John 6:54 (That is through study the Bible with meditation about Jesus – v. 63; etc.).

THINK ABOUT FORGIVENES

Paul rarely uses the term ‘forgiveness,’ but in its place prefers ‘justification.’ They are practically synonymous. This is demonstrated by Romans 4:6–8, where Paul speaks of justifying the ungodly, then to prove his point, he quotes from Psalm 32:1.2, which speaks of forgiveness.

This being the case, the requirements for justification would seem to be the same as for forgiveness. Thus, by substitution we may legitimately read Romans 3:24 as we are “forgiven FREELY by his grace.”

Is anything required of the sinner to obtain the “freely” forgiveness or justification?

Think about these: “If My people who are called by My name will HUMBLE THEMSELVES, and PRAY and SEEK MY FACE, and TURN FROM THEIR WICKED ways, then I will hear from heaven, and WILL FORGIVE their sin and heal their land. (2 Chron. 7:14); “But IF YOU DO NOT FORGIVE men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.” (Matt. 6:15); “ ‘REPENT. . . for the forgiveness of your sins’ ” (Acts 2:38, NIV); “If we CONFESS our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. (1 John 1:9).

There are requirements, then, that we must meet to receive God’s saving forgiveness, among which are humility, repentance, turning from sins, confession of sins, forgiveness of others, and so on… And each of these DEMANDS A CERTAIN DENIAL, AN ABNEGATION OF SELF.

In conclusion, if there are so many conditions for the “unconditional salvation”, do you disagree with me if I put one more on the list – Full SELF-SURRENDER to Jesus?

OBJECTION – 2: The word “surrender” does not exist in my Bible…

ANSWER: Of course, the word surrender, does not appear in most translations of the New Testament. And it is also true that in general the church pastors do not preach this vital topic. We could call it “the neglected imperative.” Nevertheless, the concept RUNS THROUGHOUT Scripture.

Another cause for contradictions on the forum is the fact that not all believers have the same biblical definition for “salvation”. Therefore, before to start a study about surrender, as a condition for salvation, let’s remember what salvation is. But this is the topic of my following post.

                                                                   ****

Please think about the following verse: “Therefore SUBMIT to God. Resist the devil and he will flee from you.” – James 4:7

•   What is your opinion about that verse?
•   “Submit” is a synonym for “surrender”.
•   When can you resist devil (his attraction to sin)?
•   When does he “flee” from you?
•   Is true that “surrender” is a victory word?
•   Can you gain the victory over devil without self-surrender to God?
•   Does the verse suggest you have to daily surrender to God? 



Offline Watchman

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Re: A study of Faith
« Reply #88 on: Sun Sep 08, 2019 - 19:03:08 »
                                                             1. SELF-SURRENDER
                                                                  Introduction - 1

This is not “off topic”. The true sense of faith is “trust”. Therefore, trust in Jesus means you are willing to surrender yourself to Him.

I had prepared myself to start here a fellowship with Jesus among our group… Why? Because fellowship with Jesus is a condition for salvation and all of us must have this habit. However, the call of Watchman is so categorical that I cannot refuse to answer him, and in this case I have to change my topic about the importance of the fellowship with Jesus. Surrender is also a condition for our salvation.

OBJECTION - 1: This is WRONG, WRONG, WRONG!! Salvation comes “without money and without price” (Isa. 55:1, NKJV). I have listened to very many sermons on justification in which it was emphasized that justification is free, UNCONDITIONAL. We are “justified freely by His grace” (Rom.3:24, NKJV). And to that my heart responds with a fervent Amen. But surrender to God cannot be a condition for salvation; this is a great error… If justification and salvation are free, where do you place self-surrender, which seems to suggest the giving up of freedom?

Do you see? I wrote only a few lines regarding self-surrender and already I am shot with a gun of big calibre… Fortunately, this objection is an intelligent one; I mean it is based on the Bible, and therefore I must consider it. The sender is sincere, but he have some MISSING LINKS/VERSES in his memory. I have to have patience with him. Sometimes that is the cause of contradictions on our forum…

SOME CONDITIONS FOR SALVATION:

•   FAITH. The sender forgot to say that “unconditional” is not even without any conditions. For example, the first condition is faith. "The just shall live by faith." Romans 1:17.

•   “THIRSTY”, “COME” and “DESIRES”. Rev. 22:17 NLT

•   REPENT and BE BAPTIZED. On the day of Pentecost, the Jews in Jerusalem who were convicted by Peter's preaching wanted to know what they should do to receive salvation. Peter answered,  “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins." - Acts 2:38.

The first word is “repent.” Repentance must be joined with faith. It precedes the receiving of salvation. How essential is it? Jesus said, "I tell you….unless you repent you will all likewise perish." Luke 13:3. True repentance is a GIFT from God just as much as is the forgiveness of sins. See Acts 5:31; 11:18. You can repent only as the Holy Spirit convicts you of sin. Be sure to repent when He gives you the opportunity. In conclusion, repentance is a gift of God, but at the same time it is our responsibility to repent ourselves. How? We have to ask repentance and surrender to God for it (or to permit Him to change our minds, through repentance).

•      OBEDIENCE. "...the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey Him."   

•      EATING JESUS’ FLESH.“Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. ” John 6:54 (That is through study the Bible with meditation about Jesus – v. 63; etc.).

THINK ABOUT FORGIVENES

Paul rarely uses the term ‘forgiveness,’ but in its place prefers ‘justification.’ They are practically synonymous. This is demonstrated by Romans 4:6–8, where Paul speaks of justifying the ungodly, then to prove his point, he quotes from Psalm 32:1.2, which speaks of forgiveness.

This being the case, the requirements for justification would seem to be the same as for forgiveness. Thus, by substitution we may legitimately read Romans 3:24 as we are “forgiven FREELY by his grace.”

Is anything required of the sinner to obtain the “freely” forgiveness or justification?

Think about these: “If My people who are called by My name will HUMBLE THEMSELVES, and PRAY and SEEK MY FACE, and TURN FROM THEIR WICKED ways, then I will hear from heaven, and WILL FORGIVE their sin and heal their land. (2 Chron. 7:14); “But IF YOU DO NOT FORGIVE men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.” (Matt. 6:15); “ ‘REPENT. . . for the forgiveness of your sins’ ” (Acts 2:38, NIV); “If we CONFESS our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. (1 John 1:9).

There are requirements, then, that we must meet to receive God’s saving forgiveness, among which are humility, repentance, turning from sins, confession of sins, forgiveness of others, and so on… And each of these DEMANDS A CERTAIN DENIAL, AN ABNEGATION OF SELF.

In conclusion, if there are so many conditions for the “unconditional salvation”, do you disagree with me if I put one more on the list – Full SELF-SURRENDER to Jesus?

OBJECTION – 2: The word “surrender” does not exist in my Bible…

ANSWER: Of course, the word surrender, does not appear in most translations of the New Testament. And it is also true that in general the church pastors do not preach this vital topic. We could call it “the neglected imperative.” Nevertheless, the concept RUNS THROUGHOUT Scripture.

Another cause for contradictions on the forum is the fact that not all believers have the same biblical definition for “salvation”. Therefore, before to start a study about surrender, as a condition for salvation, let’s remember what salvation is. But this is the topic of my following post.

                                                                   ****

Please think about the following verse: “Therefore SUBMIT to God. Resist the devil and he will flee from you.” – James 4:7

•   What is your opinion about that verse?
•   “Submit” is a synonym for “surrender”.
•   When can you resist devil (his attraction to sin)?
•   When does he “flee” from you?
•   Is true that “surrender” is a victory word?
•   Can you gain the victory over devil without self-surrender to God?
•   Does the verse suggest you have to daily surrender to God?

Our English word "Faith" comes from the Greek word Pistis. Pistis is used 245 times in the NT.

Pistis has a corresponding verb, "pisteuo". Pisteuo is used 248 times in the NT.

Definition of pisteuo from the Vines Greek dictionary is, " a personal surrender to Him and a life inspired by such surrender."

So maybe the word "surrender" is not used much, but surrender is apart of NT saving Faith, used 248 times. Without that personal surrender to Him, and a life inspired by such surrender, nobody can receive the Spirit of Christ!

Hopefully this will give you a simple view of my understanding of Faith. I'm still not seeing where you're coming from. This thread was supposed to be about a study of Faith.  You seem to be all over the place. What is your understanding of how we receive the Spirit of Christ ?


Offline Bimbo

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Re: A study of Faith
« Reply #89 on: Thu Sep 12, 2019 - 22:43:10 »
TO Mr. YOGI BEAR:

You wrote: « on: Fri Jul 19, 2019»

Quote
“If we are true to Christ then we must study the word of God to see for ourselves that what we are being taught is truly what God has said and not a spin put on it by man. WE are instructed to study the word for ourselves as noted in the following scripture…”

This is a good counsel. The Bible speaks: “Those who guide this people mislead them, and those who are guided are led astray.” (Isa. 9:16 NIV). “…They are blind guides leading the blind, and if one blind person guides another, they will both fall into a ditch.” (Matt. 15:14 NLT).

According to your indication, today I will show how MANY Christians who didn’t know the Bible were deluded to believe a delusion.

TO WATCHMAN:

I agree to your post. Holy Spirit is a divine Person Who came on our planet to work in the place of Jesus. If we trust in His love and power, and surrender ourselves and our wills to Him, then He will made us His temples and will lead us to a sure salvation from sin (sanctification)… He will bring Jesus in our hearts/minds. I think we will discuss here one day, HOW we can receive the Spirit’s baptism.

                                                                            2. SURRENDER
                                                                            Introduction - 2

SUMMARY: The NEW BIRTH and SANCTIFICATION are two important parts of salvation by faith in Jesus. Many believers ignore the biblical sanctification because they were deceived by false teachers. Salvation is not complete without sanctification. It is the work of the Holy Spirit, and therefore we must understand that self-surrender to God is an important imperative. 

OUR SALVATION MUST BE COMPLETE

”Therefore He is able to save COMPLETELY those who come to God through him, because he always lives to intercede for them.” – Heb. 7:25

There is nothing in our life more essential than salvation. Therefore, we need above all else to understand what salvation is, and then to experience it by faith. According to Heb. 7:25 our salvation must be complete and also to remain complete.

The complete salvation provides complete answer for our sin problem. It has three parts, because the sin problem has three parts:

PAST. We need to be saved from the guilt of past sins. 1 John 3:4; Romans 6:23. If we trust in Jesus, and have a close relationship with Him, He provides a complete forgiveness for the sins of the past. This forgiveness is named ”justification”. When God justify us, He also works the new birth in our life.

PRESENT. We need to be saved DAY BY DAY from the continuing control exerted by our inner disposition to do evil. Paul called this power the "sin that dwells in me" and "the law of sin which is in my members." Romans 7:17, 23. It is the disposition we all have to use our tongue, eyes, ears, hands, and feet to commit acts of sin. Christ provides ONGOING POWER so that we may be VICTORIOUS EVERY DAY. This is “sanctification”.

FUTURE. We need salvation for our sin-damaged bodies. Regardless how completely we may be saved from the guilt of past sins and from the continuing control of our evil disposition, we are still subject to sickness, accidents, old age, and death. Paul wrote: "We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time." Romans 8:22 NIV. How well we know it! Christ has promised to give us new bodies at His coming. (1 Cor. 15:51-54).

His salvation is complete, and we are right in speaking of three aspects of salvation because the Bible applies the words “saved” and “salvation” in these three different ways.

SAVED FROM PAST SINS.

No one need live a single hour under the condemnation of his guilt. See Acts 10:43; Isaiah 1:18; 43:25.

Paul wrote, "By grace you HAVE BEEN SAVED through faith." Ephesians 2:8, RSV. The Bible mentions this past aspect of salvation in several other places. In 2 Timothy 1:9 we read that God "HATH SAVED US." In Romans 8:24, NEB, the Bible states that, "We HAVE BEEN SAVED."

The cross of Christ is the divine response to the tragedy of sin. Christ told the sinful woman who shed tears of penitence, "Your sins are forgiven." He added, "Your faith has saved you." Luke 7:37-50. He did not say, "Your faith WILL save you" but "Your faith HAS SAVED you." She had been saved from the guilt of her past sins.

SAVED DAY BY DAY.

The new birth brings Christ in us by the Holy Spirit. He saves us from repeating our former sins and strengthens us to OBEY God's commandments. "Whoever has been born of God DOES NOT SIN, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been BORN of God." 1 John 3:9; 5:4.

Here are several other scripture texts that refer to believers' BEING SAVED. "To us who are being saved." 1 Corinthians 1:18, RSV. " "The Lord added to their number day by day those who were being saved" (Acts 2:47, RSV) or "those whom he was saving" (NEB).

Certainly forgiveness is one of God's greatest blessings. But salvation is also a CONTINUING VICTORY over sinning. The angel told Mary to call her son Jesus, because He "shall save his people from their sins." Matthew 1:21. Notice, His people are saved FROM their sins, not IN their sins. Our salvation includes both forgiveness and victory.

SAVED FOREVER.

There are texts in which salvation refers to what will happen at the second coming. Isaiah wrote that when Christ appears, the righteous will exclaim, “Behold, this is our God; We have waited for Him, and He WILL SAVE us. This is the Lord; We have waited for Him; We WILL be glad and rejoice IN HIS SALVATION.” - Isaiah 25:9. Because these are righteous people, we know they WERE FORGIVEN for their past sins. DAY BY DAY they were being saved from the dominion of sin. Now at Christ's appearing they say, "He WILL SAVE us." There must be a final phase of salvation that is to be accomplished at Christ's coming.

Some phase of salvation must take place after sin is FORGIVEN and fully OVERCOME. Paul wrote, "Now is our salvation NEARER than when we believed." Romans 13:11. He immediately warned that "the day is at hand." Verse 12. Peter wrote about "salvation ready to be revealed in the last time." 1 Peter 1:5. A few verses later he defined this phase of salvation as "the glory that should FOLLOW." Verse 11.

In conclusion, God's great good news goes beyond the forgiving of our past sins. His program of salvation has three parts. It not only deals with the PAST, but with the PRESENT and the FUTURE.

Very many pastors emphasize only part one (the forgiveness from past sins) and part three (the future home in glory), but they neglect or deemphasize part two, which involves righteous living TODAY. They speak a lot about God's gracious act of forgiving past sins, which is part one. And they speak much about the future kingdom of glory, which is part three of God’s salvation. But they speak only a little or even nothing about the second part — overcoming sin through God’s grace and our faith today. For that reason we DESPERATELY NEED His saving power to be active in our lives TODAY.

HOW NECESSARY IS THE EXPEREINCE OF SANCTIFICATION?

Heb. 12:14 – “Follow after peace with all men, and the SANCTIFICATION without which no man shall see the Lord.” (ASV; RV) It is evident that we will be lost without sanctification.

Please, think about these points:
•   Sanctification is the work of the Holy Spirit. (2 Thess. 2:13);
•   The Holy Spirit is the secret of Jesus’ victory. “…BY THE POWER of the eternal Spirit, Christ offered himself to God as a PERFECT sacrifice for our sins” (Heb. 9:14 NLT);
•   The Holy Spirit is sanctifying us through Bible study, (“Sanctify them by Your truth. Your word is truth.” – John 17:17 NKJV).
•   Jesus is our sanctification “…Jesus, who became for us….. sanctification.” (1 Cor. 1:30). When Jesus – our sanctification - lives in our hearts through the Holy Spirit, we will manifest sanctification (or obedience to God) in our lives.

Now, look how Jesus accentuated our need of sanctification: “Not everyone who calls out to me, ‘Lord! Lord!’ will enter the Kingdom of Heaven. Only those who actually DO the will of my Father in heaven will enter. On JUDGMENT day many will say to me, ‘Lord! Lord! We prophesied in your name and cast out demons in your name and performed many miracles in your name.’ But I will reply, ‘I never knew you. Get away from me, you who BREAK GOD’S LAWs.’” - Matt. 7:21-23 NLT.

Jesus will not accept those “many” Christians in the day of judgment. Why? They didn’t keep  “God’s laws”. That means they didn’t receive salvation part 2 in their lives (or Spirit’s sanctification). They didn’t surrender their will to the Holy Spirit and therefore He couldn’t sanctify them (or make them obedient to His Law). But what about us in this regard?

I read again and again Matt. 7:21-23… I saw myself on FUTURE judgment day…
“I never knew you”, said Jesus to me.
“Lord, You know that I preached about You on the forum… And”…
“Get away from Me.”
“Lord, You know that I always believed You died for my sins…”
“GET AWAY from me, you who BREAK GOD’S LAWs.”
“Lord, You know that Your Law was crucified at the same time with You…. Lord, please…Lord….You know that IN THIS WAY I WAS TAUGHT….”

Please, think once again about the warning of Mr. Yogi:

“If we are true to Christ then we must study the word of God to see for ourselves that what we are being taught is truly what God has said and not a spin put on it by man. WE are instructed to study the word for ourselves as noted in the following scripture…”


Offline Watchman

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Re: A study of Faith
« Reply #90 on: Fri Sep 13, 2019 - 12:01:01 »
TO Mr. YOGI BEAR:

You wrote: « on: Fri Jul 19, 2019»

This is a good counsel. The Bible speaks: “Those who guide this people mislead them, and those who are guided are led astray.” (Isa. 9:16 NIV). “…They are blind guides leading the blind, and if one blind person guides another, they will both fall into a ditch.” (Matt. 15:14 NLT).

According to your indication, today I will show how MANY Christians who didn’t know the Bible were deluded to believe a delusion.

TO WATCHMAN:

I agree to your post. Holy Spirit is a divine Person Who came on our planet to work in the place of Jesus. If we trust in His love and power, and surrender ourselves and our wills to Him, then He will made us His temples and will lead us to a sure salvation from sin (sanctification)… He will bring Jesus in our hearts/minds. I think we will discuss here one day, HOW we can receive the Spirit’s baptism.

                                                                            2. SURRENDER
                                                                            Introduction - 2

SUMMARY: The NEW BIRTH and SANCTIFICATION are two important parts of salvation by faith in Jesus. Many believers ignore the biblical sanctification because they were deceived by false teachers. Salvation is not complete without sanctification. It is the work of the Holy Spirit, and therefore we must understand that self-surrender to God is an important imperative. 

OUR SALVATION MUST BE COMPLETE

”Therefore He is able to save COMPLETELY those who come to God through him, because he always lives to intercede for them.” – Heb. 7:25

There is nothing in our life more essential than salvation. Therefore, we need above all else to understand what salvation is, and then to experience it by faith. According to Heb. 7:25 our salvation must be complete and also to remain complete.

The complete salvation provides complete answer for our sin problem. It has three parts, because the sin problem has three parts:

PAST. We need to be saved from the guilt of past sins. 1 John 3:4; Romans 6:23. If we trust in Jesus, and have a close relationship with Him, He provides a complete forgiveness for the sins of the past. This forgiveness is named ”justification”. When God justify us, He also works the new birth in our life.

PRESENT. We need to be saved DAY BY DAY from the continuing control exerted by our inner disposition to do evil. Paul called this power the "sin that dwells in me" and "the law of sin which is in my members." Romans 7:17, 23. It is the disposition we all have to use our tongue, eyes, ears, hands, and feet to commit acts of sin. Christ provides ONGOING POWER so that we may be VICTORIOUS EVERY DAY. This is “sanctification”.

FUTURE. We need salvation for our sin-damaged bodies. Regardless how completely we may be saved from the guilt of past sins and from the continuing control of our evil disposition, we are still subject to sickness, accidents, old age, and death. Paul wrote: "We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time." Romans 8:22 NIV. How well we know it! Christ has promised to give us new bodies at His coming. (1 Cor. 15:51-54).

His salvation is complete, and we are right in speaking of three aspects of salvation because the Bible applies the words “saved” and “salvation” in these three different ways.

SAVED FROM PAST SINS.

No one need live a single hour under the condemnation of his guilt. See Acts 10:43; Isaiah 1:18; 43:25.

Paul wrote, "By grace you HAVE BEEN SAVED through faith." Ephesians 2:8, RSV. The Bible mentions this past aspect of salvation in several other places. In 2 Timothy 1:9 we read that God "HATH SAVED US." In Romans 8:24, NEB, the Bible states that, "We HAVE BEEN SAVED."

The cross of Christ is the divine response to the tragedy of sin. Christ told the sinful woman who shed tears of penitence, "Your sins are forgiven." He added, "Your faith has saved you." Luke 7:37-50. He did not say, "Your faith WILL save you" but "Your faith HAS SAVED you." She had been saved from the guilt of her past sins.

SAVED DAY BY DAY.

The new birth brings Christ in us by the Holy Spiri UIt. He saves us from repeating our former sins and strengthens us to OBEY God's commandments. "Whoever has been born of God DOES NOT SIN, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been BORN of God." 1 John 3:9; 5:4.

Here are several other scripture texts that refer to believers' BEING SAVED. "To us who are being saved." 1 Corinthians 1:18, RSV. " "The Lord added to their number day by day those who were being saved" (Acts 2:47, RSV) or "those whom he was saving" (NEB).

Certainly forgiveness is one of God's greatest blessings. But salvation is also a CONTINUING VICTORY over sinning. The angel told Mary to call her son Jesus, because He "shall save his people from their sins." Matthew 1:21. Notice, His people are saved FROM their sins, not IN their sins. Our salvation includes both forgiveness and victory.

SAVED FOREVER.

There are texts in which salvation refers to what will happen at the second coming. Isaiah wrote that when Christ appears, the righteous will exclaim, “Behold, this is our God; We have waited for Him, and He WILL SAVE us. This is the Lord; We have waited for Him; We WILL be glad and rejoice IN HIS SALVATION.” - Isaiah 25:9. Because these are righteous people, we know they WERE FORGIVEN for their past sins. DAY BY DAY they were being saved from the dominion of sin. Now at Christ's appearing they say, "He WILL SAVE us." There must be a final phase of salvation that is to be accomplished at Christ's coming.

Some phase of salvation must take place after sin is FORGIVEN and fully OVERCOME. Paul wrote, "Now is our salvation NEARER than when we believed." Romans 13:11. He immediately warned that "the day is at hand." Verse 12. Peter wrote about "salvation ready to be revealed in the last time." 1 Peter 1:5. A few verses later he defined this phase of salvation as "the glory that should FOLLOW." Verse 11.

In conclusion, God's great good news goes beyond the forgiving of our past sins. His program of salvation has three parts. It not only deals with the PAST, but with the PRESENT and the FUTURE.

Very many pastors emphasize only part one (the forgiveness from past sins) and part three (the future home in glory), but they neglect or deemphasize part two, which involves righteous living TODAY. They speak a lot about God's gracious act of forgiving past sins, which is part one. And they speak much about the future kingdom of glory, which is part three of God’s salvation. But they speak only a little or even nothing about the second part — overcoming sin through God’s grace and our faith today. For that reason we DESPERATELY NEED His saving power to be active in our lives TODAY.

HOW NECESSARY IS THE EXPEREINCE OF SANCTIFICATION?

Heb. 12:14 – “Follow after peace with all men, and the SANCTIFICATION without which no man shall see the Lord.” (ASV; RV) It is evident that we will be lost without sanctification.

Please, think about these points:
•   Sanctification is the work of the Holy Spirit. (2 Thess. 2:13);
•   The Holy Spirit is the secret of Jesus’ victory. “…BY THE POWER of the eternal Spirit, Christ offered himself to God as a PERFECT sacrifice for our sins” (Heb. 9:14 NLT);
•   The Holy Spirit is sanctifying us through Bible study, (“Sanctify them by Your truth. Your word is truth.” – John 17:17 NKJV).
•   Jesus is our sanctification “…Jesus, who became for us….. sanctification.” (1 Cor. 1:30). When Jesus – our sanctification - lives in our hearts through the Holy Spirit, we will manifest sanctification (or obedience to God) in our lives.

Now, look how Jesus accentuated our need of sanctification: “Not everyone who calls out to me, ‘Lord! Lord!’ will enter the Kingdom of Heaven. Only those who actually DO the will of my Father in heaven will enter. On JUDGMENT day many will say to me, ‘Lord! Lord! We prophesied in your name and cast out demons in your name and performed many miracles in your name.’ But I will reply, ‘I never knew you. Get away from me, you who BREAK GOD’S LAWs.’” - Matt. 7:21-23 NLT.

Jesus will not accept those “many” Christians in the day of judgment. Why? They didn’t keep  “God’s laws”. That means they didn’t receive salvation part 2 in their lives (or Spirit’s sanctification). They didn’t surrender their will to the Holy Spirit and therefore He couldn’t sanctify them (or make them obedient to His Law). But what about us in this regard?

I read again and again Matt. 7:21-23… I saw myself on FUTURE judgment day…
“I never knew you”, said Jesus to me.
“Lord, You know that I preached about You on the forum… And”…
“Get away from Me.”
“Lord, You know that I always believed You died for my sins…”
“GET AWAY from me, you who BREAK GOD’S LAWs.”
“Lord, You know that Your Law was crucified at the same time with You…. Lord, please…Lord….You know that IN THIS WAY I WAS TAUGHT….”

Please, think once again about the warning of Mr. Yogi:

“If we are true to Christ then we must study the word of God to see for ourselves that what we are being taught is truly what God has said and not a spin put on it by man. WE are instructed to study the word for ourselves as noted in the following scripture…”

Self taught called out ones are Satan's greatest tool, right behind the deception that God's word is here's in the first place.

You're bearing witness to an illegitimate relationship with Christ. Because you haven't yet begun that relationship with a correct response, true NT pisteuo!

I won't be waiting another week or two for your response, that is an extremely rude way of conducting a discussion. Goodbye!

Offline Bimbo

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Re: A study of Faith
« Reply #91 on: Thu Sep 19, 2019 - 07:08:18 »
DETOUR AROUND THE TOPIC

Post by: Watchman to Bimbo, on Fri Sep 13, 2019
Quote
Self taught called out ones are Satan's greatest tool, right behind the deception that God's word is here's in the first place.

You're bearing witness to an illegitimate relationship with Christ. Because you haven't yet begun that relationship with a correct response, true NT pisteuo!

I won't be waiting another week or two for your response, that is an extremely rude way of conducting a discussion. Goodbye!

Let us start with the end of this message: “I won't be waiting another week or two for your response, that is an extremely rude way of conducting a discussion. Goodbye!”

According to the title of the thread – a STUDY of Faith – and according to the first paragraph of the thread, your simple about 3-5 sentences discussions, without any Bible references, are not very much desired… (see below). The appeal of Mr. Yogi penetrated my heart, but what about your heart?

“Extremely rude”!! I’m sure these words are not for me, but rather for Jesus!... Now He is suffering in my place… In fact it is a judgment without considering the list of proofs…

“Another week or two for” my response?  Here are some reasons:

Reason #1 or the fresh one.  Sometimes it is very good to send your answer later… For instance, even now it was better. Look at Jesus in this regard: “ 33 Then He came to Capernaum. And when He was in the house He asked them, “What was it you disputed among yourselves on the road?” 34 But they kept silent, for on the road they had disputed among themselves who would be the greatest.” – Mark 9:33.

Jesus’ disciples argued among themselves about who would be greatest in the kingdom. They tried to conceal this strife from Jesus. He read their thoughts and longed to counsel them, but He waited for a quiet time to do this, when their hearts would be open to receive His words.

Reason #2. It is true that in general I am very, very busy. And before sending a post I have to study seriously the Bible. I don’t permit myself coming to the forum without a good preparation. (See below). 

Maybe you will say, “Then why do you write so long Bible studies on the forum?” I know that I am responsible in front of God for every written word and that my messages must clearly show the true way of salvation. Jesus gave me this warning: “But I say to you that for every IDLE word men may speak, they will give account of it in the day of judgment. For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned.” Matt. 12:36. 37 NKJV

The Bible says: ” Then those who feared the LORD spoke with each other, and the LORD listened to what they said. In His presence, a scroll of remembrance was written to record the names of those who feared him and always thought about the honor of his name. “They will be my people,” says the LORD of Heaven’s Armies. “On the day when I act in judgment, they will be my own special treasure. I will spare them as a father spares an obedient child.” – Mal. 3:16 NLT

We have a great responsibility to tell people the words of God for our days [God’s words!!]: “So you, son of man: I have made you a watchman for the house of Israel; therefore you shall hear a word from My mouth and warn them for Me. When I say to the wicked, ‘O wicked man, you shall surely die!’ and you do not speak to warn the wicked from his way, that wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood I will require at your hand. Nevertheless if you warn the wicked to turn from his way, and he does not turn from his way, he shall die in his iniquity; but you have delivered your soul.” – Ezek. 33:7-9

Reason #3. Not all of us understood the title of this thread and the direction in which the author points to. The title is “A study of faith”. A “STUDY” doesn’t mean 3-4 sentences reply, (and without any Bible verse!). No, the author encourages a serious personal STUDY of the Bible and, of course, we have to stimulate a deep study on the forum. Please listen to the recommendation of Mr. Yogi:

Quote
If we are true to Christ then we must study the word of God to see for ourselves that what we are being taught is truly What God has said and not a spin put on it by man. WE are instructed to study the word for ourselves as noted in the following scripture.

The author is alarmed because in our days there are very many delusions and many will be lost on account of them. He is a faithful watchman of the forum… He says: “WE are instructed to study the word for ourselves”!! Notice the word “STUDY”! And then he adds:

Quote
Romans 10:9-10 (KJV)
9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. 10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Verse 10 - Confession. A willingness to confess Christ in word and deed has always been the test of true discipleship (Matt. 10:32; Luke 12:8; cf. Rev. 3:5). A good confession before the world, maintained to the end, will result in salvation (cf. Rev. 2:10).

Mr. Yogi says we have to “confess unto salvation”. (Of course, here on the forum and everywhere).

Watchman to Bimbo:
Quote
You're bearing witness to an illegitimate relationship with Christ. Because you haven't yet begun that relationship with a correct response, true NT pisteuo!

!?!... My “self” must be crucified with Christ, therefore I mustn’t protect him…

In fact what is the problem with that Greek verb “pisteuo”?

Watchman explained:

Post by: Watchman on Sun Sep 08, 2019 - 19:03:08
Quote
Our English word "Faith" comes from the Greek word Pistis. Pistis is used 245 times in the NT.

Pistis has a corresponding verb, "pisteuo". Pisteuo is used 248 times in the NT.

Definition of pisteuo from the Vines Greek dictionary is, "a personal surrender to Him and a life inspired by such surrender."

So maybe the word "surrender" is not used much, but surrender is apart [a part?] of NT saving Faith, used 248 times. Without that personal surrender to Him, and a life inspired by such surrender, nobody can receive the Spirit of Christ!

Hopefully this will give you a simple view of my understanding of Faith. I'm still not seeing where you're coming from. This thread was supposed to be about a study of Faith. You seem to be all over the place. What is your understanding of how we receive the Spirit of Christ ?

Watchman, you forgot the first meaning that is presented for “pisteuo” by the same Dictionary: “(1) a firm conviction, producing a full acknowledgement of God's revelation or truth.” [Vine's Expository Dictionary of NT Words].

Then I found other pisteuo’s meanings in Strong’s Concordance: They are: “I believe, have faith in, trust in, pass: I am entrusted with.”

I continued the investigation looking for the meaning of “pisteuo” in another NT Greek Dictionary, but I didn’t find anything about its meaning as “personal surrender”. Maybe you will find one…

In conclusion to this point:

Sometimes the Greek meaning of a NT word is helpful, but it is a mistake to put the Dictionary above the Bible. Do not forget that the Bible is its own lexicon. The Bible gives us a lot of teachings about surrender. Sometimes the Greek Dictionaries give meanings taken from the pagan literature, and those are not always fit for the Bible. For instance, with such a pagan meaning you will not understand correctly Paul’s word “grace”.

I don’t have the right to change the official translation of the Bible. Therefore I quote the verses with “faith” or “believe”, even all of us know that they mean “trust”. The Bible does the same, using the word “sunset”, or scientific literature with the word “atom”.

The most important thing is the fact that we both are believing the same about the vital word “surrender”.

JUMPING WITHOUT REASON FROM TOPIC TO TOPIC

Post by: Watchman to Bimbo on Fri Aug 23, 2019
Quote
Hi Bimbo,
Let's talk about Faith!

Post by: Bimbo on Thu Sep 05, 2019
Quote
In this occasion I will accentuate the need of a clearer gospel, with encouragements for our readers. And next we will START to experience IN GROUP, the fellowship with Jesus. (Of course, if you are willing to help this project).

Post by: Watchman to Bimbo on Fri Sep 06, 2019
Quote
You asked, "how do we surrender ourselves to Christ, what do we surrender to Christ?"
Those are the questions!
Any answers?


Notice that you asked: “HOW” and “WHAT” do we surrender…. Those are the questionS!”

Post by: Bimbo on Sun Sep 08, 2019
Quote
I had prepared myself to start here a fellowship with Jesus among our group… Why? Because fellowship with Jesus is a condition for salvation and all of us must have this habit. However, the call of Watchman is so categorical that I cannot refuse to answer him, and in this case I have to change my topic about the importance of the fellowship with Jesus. Surrender is also a condition for our salvation.

Post by: Watchman to Bimbo - on Sun Sep 08, 2019
Quote
…. What is your understanding of how we receive the Spirit of Christ ?

I just wrote ONLY an introduction about “surrender”… (You asked it!) and now you already are not interested in “HOW and WHAT do we surrender” any longer… Why? Now you asked me, “HOW we receive the Spirit of Christ?” What happened with you? Why did you try to change once again my topic? Mr. Yogi called us to a very serious Bible study because there are many delusions in our days. I understood that his advice is important and I wished to show some of those perils. Do you try to hinder me? Is it a simple curiosity regarding my opinions? The off topic thread it is not even here…

I cannot judge you, because I don’t know your secret intentions, but I can pray for your salvation… A man with “an extremely rude way of conducting a discussion” don’t say to you “Goodbye!”, but rather May God bless you!...





Offline Bimbo

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Re: A study of Faith
« Reply #92 on: Tue Sep 24, 2019 - 03:39:05 »
3. Self-Surrender
Is it so important?
Mr. Yogi wrote:
Quote
If we are true to Christ then we must study the word of God to see for ourselves that what we are being taught is truly What God has said and not a spin put on it by man. WE are instructed to study the word for ourselves as noted in the following scripture.

“We must study the Word of God to see for ourselves that what we are being taught is truly.”!! And I add: Not only for that, but also to discover our lack of saving knowledge, because God says, “My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge.” – Hosea 4:6. (“My people are being destroyed because they don’t know me.” NLT). For instance, many Christians will lose the everlasting life on account of their ignorance about their need to surrender to God.

This surrender is our response to God's drawing, so that He can shatter all our inner resistance to His will, change our minds, radically change our attitudes, motives, desires — the whole heart — so that our selfish "rights " are abandoned, and His will continually sought. It is a supernatural experience; it is possible only as result of an intimate relation with Jesus. “Therefore, if anyone is IN CHRIST, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come!” (2 Cor. 5:17 NIV) Why is it so? Because Jesus began to have control over man’s heart.

Consider Abraham on the occasion of the supreme test that God brought to him - the sacrifice of Isaac. Was God's command simply that Abraham give up Isaac to Him so totally that he would be willing to offer him as a burnt sacrifice? (Gen. 22). Only in a secondary sense. What God wanted was not Isaac but Abraham. And by Abraham's demonstrating his willingness to give up even that which was dearest to himself, he demonstrated that he was indeed surrendering completely to God.

Abraham becam the father of all believers. Why was this story written in the Bible? It is a lesson written for our learning. It is not possible for us, of ourselves, to escape from the power of sin. Our hearts are sinful, and we cannot change them. “Nothing clean can ever come from anything as unclean as human beings.” Job 14:4. “People become enemies of God when they are controlled by their human nature; for they do not obey God’s law, and in fact they cannot obey it.” Romans 8:7.

Only a new life from above, a power working inside us, can change us from being sinful to being holy. That power is Christ. His grace alone can give life to our dead souls and draw us to God and holiness. The Saviour said, “I am telling you the truth: no one can see the Kingdom of God without being born again” (John 3:3) — unless one receives a new heart from God, with new wants and aims. The new birth continues with the daily process or spiritual growth - sanctification. But Jesus does not do this work in our lives, if we do not permit it through a daily self-surrender and will-surrender.

Similarly, Christ was not primarily interested in having the rich young ruler separate himself from his riches (Matt. 19:21). He made that a requirement, apparently, because it was the thing that stood between himself and total surrender to Jesus. The rich young ruler was not unique among human beings, even though your and my surrender problem may be something other than money.

We must be emptied of self before we can be, in the fullest sense, a believer in Jesus or a disciple of Him. When self is renounced, then the Lord can make us a new creature.

The warfare against self is the greatest battle that was ever fought. The yielding of self, surrendering all to the will of God, requires a struggle; but the soul must submit to God before it can be renewed in holiness. Self must be crucified before you can overcome in the name of Jesus and receive the reward of the faithful.

In this surrender we recognize God's claims upon every facet of our lives, and give Him the right to cleanse our heart. The word surrender means "giving up." What do we give up? We give up on us! We give up on the idea that we can do anything at all about our condition, except one — come to Christ just as we are. And Christ loves to have us come to Him just as we are. In fact, that's the only way we can come. We can never become better through our own efforts. We must come just as we are, because He says, “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing.“ – John 15:5

When we surrender to God, we give up depending on our own strength which is but weakness, and our own pride. It casts aside the hindrances of our own self-seeking, our own "wisdom" which is but foolishness. When we submit to God, we remove that self-sufficiency, that independence, that which makes it impossible for Him to do what He knows it is need to be done.

Jesus is an incredible example of what is possible to any person by total surrender to God. His ministry began and ended this way. "For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him that sent Me" (John 6:38). "O My Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass from Me; nevertheless, not as I will, but as You will" (Matthew 26:39).

There is absolutely no barrier to the outpouring of the Holy Spirit that cannot be evaporated by complete surrender to God. In fact, the filling of a person's life with the Holy Spirit is actually another way of describing a life totally surrendered to God. “For he [Jesus] is sent by God. He speaks God’s words, for God gives him the Spirit without limit.” – John 3:34 That means that Jesus’s surrender was complete. That was the secret of Jesus’s life without spot: “Through the Spirit, Christ offered himself as an unblemished sacrifice,…”– Heb. 9:14. NLT

The DETOUR that many people take in this regard is to try to give up things without to give up their self. They try to give up smoking, drinking etc. They have the idea that the Christian life is based on how many things one can give up, but this is an error that leads them to the loss of everlasting life.

Let us consider Rom. 7:14-25 ASV – “14For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am CARNAL, SOLD UNDER SIN. 15For that which I do I know not: for not what I would, that do I PRACTISE; but what I hate, that I do. 16But if what I would not, that I do, I consent unto the law that it is good. 17So now it is no more I that do it, but sin which dwelleth in me. 18For I know that in me, that is, in my flesh, dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me, but to do that which is good is not. 19For the good which I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I practise. 20But if what I would not, that I do, it is no more I that do it, but sin which dwelleth in me. 21 I find then the law, that, to me who would do good, evil is present. 22For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: 23but I see a different law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity under the law of sin which is in my members. 24Wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me out of the body of this death? 25I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then I of myself with the mind, indeed, serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.”

Here is a picture of a Christian who didn’t experience the new birth worked by the Spirit (notice: “carnal”, “sold under sin”, he habitually do the sinful things; compare with 1 John 3:9; etc.). But we also notice that Paul is depicting here a person who is being striven with by the Holy Spirit, and who is thus under conviction, but who has not learned the lesson of full self-renunciation and full surrender to the Holy Spirit. He recognizes and acknowledges God's claims upon him, and so puts forth strong, sincere efforts to do God's will. But he is trying to do it in his own strength, and therefore is habitually failing. In this situation he could go on for years.

What is the problem? On the throne of his heart sits his sinful self (his sinful nature) and leads his life; he cannot do what he want, because he is the slave of his sinful nature. It is evident that self cannot manage self. God alone can make and keep us loyal.

Is there any solution? Yes, it is. His total surrender to Christ and his new birth will bring Jesus as King of his heart. “And this is the secret: Christ lives in you. This gives you assurance of sharing his glory..” – Col. 1:27 NLT 

When Jesus is controlling our hearts, He will do what He did when He cleansed the Temple of Jerusalem (John 2:13-17). The courts of the temple, filled with unholy trade, represented accurately the temple of the heart, defiled by sensual passion and unholy thoughts. In cleansing the temple, Jesus announced His mission to cleanse the heart from sin — the earthly desires, selfish lusts, and evil habits that corrupt the soul.

The Bible says, “Do you not know that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you? If anyone defiles the temple of God, God will destroy him. For the temple of God is holy, which temple you are.” 1 Corinthians 3:16, 17. Do you see? “The Spirit of God dwells in you.” (The Spirit of God is GOD!). In this case who will control my mind and my life? My self or the Spirit? It is evident that I must surrender my will to Him. Think about it seriosly, because it is a matter of life and death.

IN CONCLUSION:

No one by himself can cast out the evil agencies that have taken possession of the heart. Only Christ can cleanse the soul temple. But He will not force His way in. He says, “Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him.” Revelation 3:20. Think about it: Your Creator is waiting at your door; He is waiting your permision to come in. His presence will cleanse and sanctify the soul so that it may be a holy temple to the Lord, “a dwelling place of God in the Spirit.” Ephesians 2:22. He will not force the door... He is waiting your surrender...

In chapter 8 Paul goes on to describe the victorious life that is found when one recognizes his utter inability to subdue self and sin and commits himself totally to the One who gives victory - Jesus Christ.You became Christ’s by faith, and you are to grow up in Him by faith. Faith calls for giving and taking. Give all to Him — your heart, your mind, your work. Give yourself to Him to obey all that He asks you to do. And you must take all. Take Christ, to live in your heart. Take Him to be your Strength, your Righteousness, and your Helper forever. He will give you power to obey.
 
 Give yourself fully to God every morning. Make this your very first work. Let this be your prayer: “Take me, O Lord, as wholly Yours. I lay all my plans at Your feet. Use me today in Your service. Live with me, and let all my work be done to honor You.” Every morning give yourself to God for that day. Put all your plans before Him, then carry out these plans or give them up as He guides. In this way you may give your life day by day into the hands of God. Your life will be made more and more like the life of Christ.

The inquiry of many a proud heart is, "Why need I go in penitence and humiliation before I can have the assurance of my acceptance with God?" I point you to Christ. He was sinless, and, more than this, He was the Prince of heaven; but in man's behalf He became sin for us. "He was numbered with the transgressors; and He bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors." Isaiah 53:12. But what do we give up, when we give all? A sin-polluted heart/mind, for Jesus to purify, to cleanse by His own blood, and to save by His matchless love. And yet men think it hard to give up all!


Offline Bimbo

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Re: A study of Faith
« Reply #93 on: Mon Sep 30, 2019 - 00:50:35 »
4. SURRENDER

Mr. Yogi wrote:
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If we are true to Christ then we must study the word of God to see for ourselves that what we are being taught is truly What God has said and not a spin put on it by man. WE are instructed to study the word for ourselves as noted in the following scripture.

YOUR BIBLE SPEAKS:

What is a true Christian, and why?

“For we are His workmanship, created [‘anew’ – NLT] in Christ Jesus FOR good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.” – Eph. 2:10 NKJV. It is evident that we are created “FOR” some special unknown divine works.

What is the first condition for knowing the will of God for us?

That is to be WILLING “to do His will”. Jesus said: “If anyone WILLS to do His will, he shall know concerning the doctrine, whether it is from God or whether I speak on My own authority.” – John 7:17

How are we prepared to know the will of God regarding His plan for us?

“…let God transform you into a new person by changing the way you think. Then you will learn to know God’s will for you, which is good and pleasing and perfect.” – Rom. 12:2 NLT

NOTE: Transformed. Gr. “metamorphoō ”, from which comes our English word “metamorphosis.” In Matt. 17:2; Mark 9:2 it is used to describe the transfiguration of Christ. In 2 Cor. 3:18 it describes the transformation of the believer into the image of Christ. Elsewhere in the NT this change is described as a new birth (John 3:3), a resurrection (Rom. 6:4, 11, 13), a new creation (2 Cor. 5:17; Gal. 6:15).

Renewing of your mind. Before new birth, man’s power of reason, the faculty for discerning between right and wrong, is under the dominion of bodily impulses. The mind is described as a “fleshly mind” (Col. 2:18). But at the time of conversion the mind comes under the influence of the Spirit of God. The result is that “we have the mind of Christ” (1 Cor. 2:13–16). The words, “A new heart” means, “a new mind”, because “For out of the heart proceed evil THOUGHTS, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies” – Matt. 15:19.

By the renewing of his mind the believer is enabled to know what God would have him to do. Since he no longer has a fleshly mind, but the mind of Christ, he is willing to do God’s will, and thus is able to recognize and understand truth (John 7:17). Only the mind that has been renewed by the Holy Spirit can correctly interpret God’s Word. The inspired Scriptures can be understood only by the illumination of the same Spirit by whom they were originally given (see John 16:13, 14; 1 Cor. 2:10, 11).

Let us say we were born again and prepared in this way to know the will of God for us, but what’s next?

Rom. 8:1 - “There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not WALK according to the flesh, but ACCORDING to the Spirit.”

NOTE: Important textual evidence may be cited for the omission of the clause, “who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.” But it is generally regarded as having been added here from v. 4. Therefore we can believe that this English verse is correct.

How can we avoid our condemnation of God’s final judgment?

Our verse gives us a double answer: (1) To be in Christ and (2) To walk according to the Spirit

IN CHRIST: This frequently occurring NT expression intimates the closeness of the personal connection that exists between the Christian and Christ. It means more than to be dependent on Him or merely to be His follower or disciple. It implies a daily, living union with Christ (John 14:20; 15:4–7). John describes this union as being “in him” (1 John 2:5. 6, 28; 3:24; 5:20). Peter also speaks of being in Christ (1 Peter 3:16; 5:14). But the idea is especially characteristic of Paul. He applies it to churches (Gal. 1:22; 1 Thess. 1:1; 2:14; 2 Thess. 1:1) as well as to individuals (1 Cor. 1:30; 2 Cor. 5:17; Eph. 1:1; etc.). Jesus emphasized the closeness of this union by His parable of the Vine and the Branches (John 15:1–7).

Unless a person is experiencing this transforming union with Christ, he cannot claim freedom from condemnation. The saving faith that brings reconciliation and justification (Rom. 3:22–26) implies an intimate fellowship Paul speaks of as being “in Christ”.

WALK. or “walk about,” implying habitual conduct. Hence, it may be translated “live” (see Rom. 6:4; 2 Cor. 5:7; 10:3; Eph. 2:10; 4:1).

DO NOT WALK ACCORDING TO THE FLESH. That is, not according to the sinful nature. Those in whom the righteous requirement of the law is fulfilled (Rom. 8:44), no longer live according to the dictates and impulses of the flesh. The gratification of carnal desires is no longer the guiding principle in their lives.

ACCORDING TO THE SPIRIT. That is, they regulate their conduct according to the dictates and guidance of the Spirit, the indwelling Spirit of Christ (v. 9). Life according to the Spirit means a life in which the righteous demands of the law are fulfilled — a life of love and loving obedience. That such a life might be made possible for believers was the great purpose for which God sent His Son into the world.

Walking according to the Spirit, implies the fact that we surrender our will to the Holy Spirit. Notice how Paul repeats this idea:

“He did this so that the just requirement of the law would be fully satisfied for us, who no longer follow our sinful nature but instead follow the Spirit.” –v. 4 NLT

Those who are dominated by the sinful nature think about sinful things, but those who are controlled by the Holy Spirit think about things that please the Spirit.” v. 5 NLT

6So letting your sinful nature control your mind leads to death. But letting the Spirit control your mind leads to life and peace.” – v. 6 NLT

That’s why those who are still under the control of their sinful nature can never please God. But you are not controlled by your sinful nature. You are CONTROLLED by the Spirit if you have the Spirit of God living in you. (And remember that those who do not have the Spirit of Christ living in [in context: ‘controlling’] them do not belong to him at all.)” – v. 8.9 NLT

“For all who are LED by the Spirit of God ARE CHILDREN OF GOD.” – v. 14 NLT

NOTE: ”ARE LED.”  Or, “are being led.” The present tense indicates continuous action. The leading of the Spirit does not mean a momentary impulse but a steady, habitual influence.

It is not those whose hearts are occasionally touched by the Spirit, or those who now and then yield to His power, who are the sons of God. God recognizes as His sons only those who are continually led by His Spirit.

It is important to notice that the guiding and transforming power of the Holy Spirit is described as leading, not forcing. There is no coercion in the plan of salvation. The Spirit dwells only in the hearts of those who ACCEPT Him in faith. And faith implies a loving and willing SURRENDER to the will of God and the directing influence of the Holy Spirit.

In conclusion:
•   Those who are led (or controlled) by the Holy Spirit are not condemned (Rom. 8:4)
•   But you cannot have His guidance if you don’t surrender your will to Him.
•   His daily guidance depends on your daily surrender of your will to Him.
•   You have to be sure He will not force your will.
•   Now think about Rev. 3:20:
(1)   Rev. 1:10.11 - John had a vision about Jesus and the seven churches.
(2)   Rev. 3:7.11.17 etc. The Holy Spirit spoke to seven churches
(3)   Rev. 3:22 The Holy Spirit spoke to Laodicea
(4)   Rev. 3:20 Jesus said to Laodicea in that vision: “Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and dine with him, and he with Me.“ These words were spoken to all believers. Even if you believe that John saw Jesus physically, today He is knocking at your heart through His Spirit. Therefore, the Holy Spirit – Who is also God – stands today at the door of your heart and asks your permission to come in. What is the door of your heart/mind? Your WILL! You can say, “Welcome and come in!” or, “Now I haven’t time for You!... Or even you will ignore the divine Presence at your mind…
(5)   The Holy Spirit will never force your will. Compare with what Jesus did at Emmaus: “By this time they were nearing Emmaus and the end of their journey. Jesus acted as if he were going on, but they begged him, “Stay the night with us, since it is getting late.” So he went home with them.” – Luke 24:28.29 NLT
(6)   Who is knocking every day at your door? Even your Creator! See Job 33:4. It says, “The Spirit of God has made me.”

WHEN THE CHURCH IS SURRENDERING TO THE HOLY SPIRIT

Today there are very many believers who do not know what happened at PENTECOST… To them, this topic is only a pretext to start a long debate about what they are calling “tongues”. They believe that “tongues” was the most important event on that occasion. In fact the gift of tongues was given for evangelism in the time of the apostles and it was a speaking in known tongues. Today it is only a counterfeit miracle…

In essence the event of Pentecost was on occasion when the church and her members surrendered themselves under the Spirit’s control. If we study the book of Apostles we can see a clear picture about what is happening when the Spirit is in charge. And we have to study that book because I believe it will be repeated. The Pentecost started at the beginning of the gospel’s work and when the work of the gospel will be finished on this earth it will be something similar. But this is another topic…

Now let us see together how the Spirit of God leaded the church and also every member of her:

The book of Acts mentions the Holy Spirit at least 70 times.

[1] Jesus appeared to Paul (9:3-5, 17)
[2] Believers received visions (16:9; 18:9),
[3] The angels aided human beings (12:7, 23),
[4] The Holy Spirit is the predominant administrator of the early church.

[5] Thus Christ gave commands through the Holy Spirit (1:2).
[6] The Spirit baptized (verse 5), empowered (verse 8), was poured out (2:17, 33), and fell on believers (10:44-47).
[7] He gave utterance (2:4), the church considered Him the Spokesman (1:16; 4:25; 28:25), and He filled Christians (2:4; 4:8, 31; 6:3,5; 7:55; 11:22-24).

[8] The church recognized the Holy Spirit as its leader. He directed in the ordination of Saul and Barnabas (13:2, 3) and sent them out on a missionary journey (verse 4).

[9] The Spirit directed Paul not to enter Asia (16:6. 7) and guided Philip to the eunuch (8:29), then carried him to his next assignment (verse 39).

[10] Besides speaking to Peter (10:19; 11:12), the Spirit gave a message to Paul through Agabus (21:10, 11), and told Paul in every city about his future afflictions and imprisonments (20:22, 23). And the Christians at Tyre conveyed a message from the Holy Spirit to Paul not to go to Jerusalem (21:4).

[11] It's interesting to note that Paul sometimes received direct communication from the Holy Spirit, and at other times through other Christians. The Holy Spirit produced a consciousness of His leadership among them all. In fact, in a letter to the church the leaders wrote near its conclusion, "For it has seemed good to the Holy Ghost and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things" (15:28, KJV). They had the right order—the Holy Spirit first, and human leaders next. We find the Spirit opening Lydia's heart to Paul's speaking (16:14), and Peter, John, and Paul laying hands on those yet ignorant of the Holy Spirit that they might receive His leadership (8:15-17; 19:6).

[12] The early church had a burden to follow the Holy Spirit and have all members be filled with His presence. Although imprisonment (4:3; 5:18; 12:4; 16:23, 24; 22:24; 24:27), stoning (14:19), and beatings (5:40; 16:23) plagued Christians, yet the leadership of the Holy Spirit showed itself stronger than Satan's opposition.

[13] Tremendous numbers joined the church -3,000 at Pentecost (2:41), a figure that jumped to 5,000 just two chapters later (4:4). The following chapter records "more and more men and women believed in the Lord and were added to their number" (5:14). By the next chapter we read: "And the word of God increased; and the number of the disciples multiplied in Jerusalem greatly; and a great company of the priests were obedient to the faith" (6:7, KJV). Beyond the shores of Palestine the results were the same. Throughout Macedonia "the churches were strengthened in the faith, and they increased in numbers daily" (16:5, RSV).

[14] In Thessalonica furious men shouted, "These that have turned the world upside down are come hither also" (17:6, KJV). The world had been shaken to its roots, not by these men, but by the Holy Spirit through them. He, and not they, had built up the church, for "in the comfort of the Holy Spirit it was multiplied" (9:31, RSV).

[15] And who were these men, anyway? Peter the coward and Paul the persecutor—not very likely candidates for such an unpopular mission. But when the Holy Spirit filled them, He changed them. And what a transformation! The coward became a man of conviction. The persecutor became a proclaimer. That's what the Holy Spirit does. Indeed, Paul knew from experience that the change within a human being "comes from the Lord who is the Spirit" (2 Cor. 3:18, RSV).

[16] All of Christ's disciples let Him down in His greatest hour of need. But not now. Formerly frightened men strode forth fearlessly to turn the world upside down. Bold preaching of the risen Christ shattered the status quo. Signs and miracles, including even resurrections (Acts 20:9-12) called into question the present order. The book of Acts throbs with the life-giving power of the Holy Spirit. Acts proclaims His acts, not those of the disciples. He, the Holy Spirit, made the decisive difference. We could rename the book "Acts of the Holy Spirit."

Offline Bimbo

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Re: A study of Faith
« Reply #94 on: Mon Oct 07, 2019 - 05:37:31 »
5. SURRENDER YOUR WILL TO THE HOLY SPIRIT

GOD SAYS, BUT I THINK… #1

Read 1 Kings 13:1-24. You will find in this passage that God sent a prophet with an important message to the King Jeroboam. The king was furious and stretched out his hand from the altar, saying, “Arrest him!” Then the king’s hand withered, so that he could not pull it back to himself. The altar also was split apart, and the ashes poured out from the altar, according to the sign which the man of God had given by the word of the LORD.

The king cried out to the prophet of God, “Please ask God to restore my hand again!” So the man prayed to the LORD, and the king’s hand was restored.  Then the king said to the man of God, “Come to the palace with me and have something to eat, and I will give you a gift.” But the prophet said to him, “Even if you gave me half of everything you own, I would not go with you. I would not eat or drink anything in this place. For the LORD gave me this command: ‘You must not eat or drink anything while you are there, and do not return to Judah by the same way you came.’”  So he left Bethel and went home another way.

This story tells us that a false prophet came and said to him, “Come home with me and eat bread.” And he refused saying: I cannot do this because ”I have been told by the word of the LORD, ‘You shall not eat bread nor drink water there, nor return by going the way you came.’” Then the false prophet said to him, “I too am a prophet as you are, and an angel spoke to me by the word of the LORD, saying, ‘Bring him back with you to your house, that he may eat bread and drink water.’” (He was lying to him.) So he went back with him, and ate bread in his house, and drank water.

But when they sat at the table, the word of the LORD came to the false prophet and he cried out to the man of God, saying, “Thus says the LORD: ‘Because you have disobeyed the word of the LORD, and have not kept the commandment which the LORD your God commanded you, but you came back, ate bread, and drank water in the place of which the LORD said to you, “Eat no bread and drink no water,” your corpse shall not come to the tomb of your fathers.’” After the man of God had finished eating and drinking, he started off again. But as he was traveling along, a lion came out and killed him.

The major point in this story is this: The one who is deceived by someone else is held accountable for being deceived. The spirit of God is freely bestowed to enable every man to lay hold upon the means of salvation. Men fail of salvation through their own willful refusal of the gift of life. The reason anyone is deceived is that he doesn't search and study and find out for himself.

What am I saying? That God has made each person his or her own king/queen, and that it is the responsibility of each of us to search, dig, pray, and study for ourselves. No one can search and pray and study and dig for another. It cannot be done any more than we can eat for another or sleep for another.

A story is told about a man who worried all the time. He worried so much that his friends began to worry about his worrying. Then one day one of his friends met him on the street and discovered that the man had ceased worrying.

"What has happened?" the friend asked.
"I quit worrying," the man said.
"How did you do that?" his friend asked.
"I employed someone to do my worrying for me."
"What do you pay him?"
"I pay him one thousand dollars a month."
"How can you pay that?"
"I can't," the ex-worrier said. "That's the first thing he
has to worry about."

This story is funny because it's so ridiculous. But we take the same thing and transfer it over to the realm of religion, and then we think it's OK. Although we don't say so, we often find it easy to depend on someone else to do our studying (our spiritual eating) and our praying (our spiritual breathing) for us. And we don't think that's funny. We think it's all right, it's real, it's normal. We think this is acceptable. Yet it's just as foolish as letting someone worry for us.

People depending on people can be a real problem. In fact, Do you depend on people for your beliefs? Do you depend on certain leaders or certain charismatic types who know how to influence the masses to tell you what to do? In the days of Christ there was a heavy debate about this. It was common in those days to ask, "Who has believed?" "Which of the leaders has accepted?" (John 7:47-49 etc.).

Then what are leaders for? What are preachers for? The leaders' job is to encourage and motivate people to study and search and think for themselves. People are not to believe anything that preachers say unless they have searched it out on their own and have come to their own conclusions.

You saw in the other post that we must surrender ourselves and our will to the Holy Spirit. But WHAT or WHO is the Holy Spirit? Many are not sure what is the truth in this regard, and very many, though they know the truth, they still have a wrong attitude to Him. The Bible speaks a lot in this regard, but I will put down here only a few references.

The Holy Spirit is a Person because He:

Has intelligence, teaches, testifiesJohn 14:26; 15:26; Luke 12:12; 1 Cor 2:13
Speaks - Acts 8:29; 10:19, 20; 28:25; Hebrews 3:7
Commands and forbids - Acts 8:29; 16:6, 7
Intercedes - Romans 8:26
Loves - Romans 15:30
Has a mind - Romans 8:27
Has a will - 1 Corinthians 12:11
Can be vexed and grieved - Ephesians 4:30; compare Isaiah 63:10
Can be insulted - Hebrews 10:29
Can be lied to - Acts 5:3

The Holy Spirit is God

Acts 5:3, 4 - Then Peter said, 'Ananias, how is it that Satan has so filled your heart that you have lied to the Holy Spirit and have kept for yourself some of the money you received for the land? Didn't it belong to you before it was sold? And after it was sold, wasn't the money at your disposal? What made you think of doing such a thing? You have not lied to men but to God.'  Therefore, lying to the Holy Spirit is lying to God. The Holy Spirit is God.

The Holy Spirit is Yahweh


2 Samuel 23:2 – The Spirit of the Lord spoke.           
2 Samuel 23:3 – The God of Israel spoke.

Sometimes people think of the Holy Spirit as a mere power, influence, or energy, but nothing could be further from the truth. You can't grieve an influence, for an influence has no feelings, but a person does have feelings. Mere power does not think, nor hear, nor speak, but a person does. The Bible refers to the Holy Spirit in ways that could only apply to a person.

When we realize that the Holy Spirit is GOD, and that He is a Person, then we realize that we must relate to Him as we relate to Jesus and the Father -- by reason, principles of truth, and SUBMISSION to His will for our lives. In conclusion, if the Holy Spirit is GOD, somebody must give up his will… But who? Myself or even the Holy Spirit”?

THE HOLY SPIRIT SAYS, BUT I THINK… #2

The Holy Spirit said through Paul: “When He ascended on high, He led captivity captive, And gave gifts to men…. And He Himself gave SOME to be apostles, SOME prophets, SOME evangelists, and SOME pastors and teachers, for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, FOR THE EDIFYING OF THE BODY OF CHRIST. … And BE RENEWED IN THE SPIRIT OF YOUR MIND.” – Eph. 4:8.11.12.23

Notice some points about the spiritual gifts:
 
   1. SOME people are given one gift, and SOME  another.
   2. And the MAJOR PURPOSE of the spiritual gifts is for edifying of the body of Christ [the church].
   3. “Be renewed in the spirit of your mind.” Paul spoke these words in the context of the spiritual gifts. God works through the MIND.

“Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I do not want you to be ignorant… There are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. There are differences of ministries, but the same Lord. And there are diversities of activities, but it is the same God who works all in all. But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to each one for the profit of all:  for TO ONE is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit, TO ANOTHER the word of knowledge through the same Spirit, TO ANOTHER faith by the same Spirit, TO ANOTHER gifts of healings by the same Spirit, TO ANOTHER the working of miracles, TO ANOTHER prophecy, to another discerning of spirits, TO ANOTHER different kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues.  But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually as He wills…. But now God has set the members, each one of them, in the body just as He pleased.” – 1 Cor. 12:1-18

Think about this summary:

   1. There are different spiritual gifts.
   2. Not all believers receive the same gift.
   3. The spiritual gifts are given “for the profit of all”
   4. The spiritual gifts are given “as He (the Holy Spirit) will” and “just as God pleased.”
   5. That means every gift is given according to Spirit’s initiative, choice and will.

Then there is a summary in the last part of the chapter, beginning with verse 28, where Paul lists again some of the gifts of the Spirit:
And God has appointed these in the church: first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, varieties of tongues. Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Are all workers of miracles? Do all have gifts of healings? Do all speak with tongues? Do all interpret?

The unspoken answer to each one of these questions is NO. Does everybody have the same gift? NO.

THE HOLY SPIRIT SAYS, BUT I THINK… (!?!?!?) Many people believe:

   =The COMMON denominator is speaking in tongues as an evidence of having received the baptism of the Holy Spirit. (FALSE! See above 1 Cor. 12: 29-30 and 8-11)
   =The speaking in tongues is thought to be for the purpose of private worship. (FALSE! See above 1 Cor. 12:7 and Eph. 4:12)
   =A person goes to his room, finds another power taking the control of his/her mouth, and speaks in a language that the speaker himself does not understand, but which he/she assumes that it is praise to God. (FALSE! See above Eph. 4:12. The spiritual gifts are given for edification of the body of Christ [Church], but the speaking in tongues of our days is not edifying or instructive for anybody).
   =The believers a taught to insist on asking the gift of tongues till he/she will receive it. (FALSE! See above 1 Cor. 12:11.18)

My INSISTENCE on such modern tongues (very often even an all-night pleading with) shows that:
   (a) I don’t believe the above verses are inspired;
   (b) I try to correct the work of the Holy Spirit;
   (c) I try to force the will of the Holy Spirit.

My Bible says, “WRONG WAY, GO BACK! DON’T TRY TO FORCE THE WILL OF THE HOLY SPIRIT!

But what is happening if I don’t give up my insistence on getting the gift of tongues? Notice 2 Thess. 2:9-12 NIV. It says, “The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with the work of Satan displayed in all kinds of counterfeit miracles, signs and wonders, and in every sort of evil that deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.”

“Do you mean if I insist on praying for tongues, I will receive ‘a powerful delusion’? Can you prove that?” Of course. Let’s study together what your Bible says: (I will give you only a minimum of knowledge in this regard!).

The first NT reference: Mark 16:17, 18. Jesus was telling His disciples about their future work. So by Jesus' own words the gift of tongues was predicted. If you go back to the original language on what these "new" tongues are, you find that it meant that the tongues were new to THEM. It is not talking about some tongue that has never been known or heard of before by anybody. It's like buying a "new" car, that is, a car that is new TO YOU!

The next reference: Acts 2. From this time forth the language of the disciples was pure, simple, and accurate, whether they spoke in their native tongue or in a foreign language."

The next instance: Acts 10. Verse 46 says, "They heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God." Then Peter said, "Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost AS WELL AS WE?"

Peter and the other apostles had received the Holy Ghost manifested in tongues at Pentecost, which, as we have seen, were known languages. Now he says, "As well as we." And later back at Jerusalem, in his report to the leaders, he said, "As I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, AS ON US AT THE BEGINNING."

Acts 11:15. So the indication from Scripture is that this was the same manifestation that had been experienced by the disciples on the Day of Pentecost.

Acts 19:5.6. "When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied." There is nothing in the context here to say whether this is speaking in known languages or ecstatic utterances, but on the basis of our study so far, there would be no reason to conclude that it would be anything other than a known language. We have noticed four of the five references to speaking in tongues, and four out of the five so far have indicated known languages, rather than ecstatic utterances.

Now 1 Corinthians 14. Now we look at the chapter where some believe the best evidence for ecstatic utterances is found. But on the basis of the weight of evidence, we already have a majority vote, don't we?

There is a Greek word that means ECSTASY, but it is not used in 1 Corinthians 14. The word that is used, GLOSSA (also used in Acts 2), means nothing more than "tongue or language." But the King James translators have inserted the word UNKNOWN. You will notice that in the older editions, the word “unknown” is in ITALICS, which indicates that it was added by the translators.

Now do you remember the verse we already read in Ephesians 4, about being renewed “in your MIND”? Compare it with Romans 12:2. "Be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your MIND." God ALWAYS works through the MIND. The mind controls the whole man. All our actions, good or bad, have their source in the mind. It is the mind that worships God. The mind worships God, not the feelings or the emotions.

With that thought, let's go quickly through 1 Corinthians 14, noticing the key words. Verse 2, UNDERSTANDETH. Verse 3, EDIFICATION. Verse 4, EDIFIETH. Verse 6, BY REVELATION, BY KNOWLEDGE. Verse 9, UNDERSTOOD. Verse 11, THE MEANING. Verse 12, EDIFYING. Verse 14, UNDERSTANDING. Verse 15, UNDERSTANDING. Verse 16, UNDERSTANDETH. Verse, 17, EDIFIED. Verse 19, UNDERSTANDING. Verse 20, UNDERSTANDING. Again and again the point is made not to do anything in the church that cannot be understood or that does not edify.

The word “edify” mean means "to instruct, to improve spiritually." The whole message of 1 Corinthians 14 is that if nobody understands what is being said, nobody is edified. Verse 2: "He that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him." Verse 9: "Except ye utter by the tongue words easy to be understood, how shall it be known what is spoken? for ye shall speak into the air." Verse 11: "Therefore if I know not the meaning of the voice, I shall be unto him that speaketh a barbarian, and he that speaketh shall be a barbarian unto me." Verse 19: "In the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in the unknown tongue." And so on. Paul repeats it again and again. If no one understands what you are saying, you do not edify them or help them spiritually.

The next conclusion. If I am praying in a private room, and there I start to pray in a language unknown to me, I wouldn't be edified either! Isn't that obvious? If I have been given the gift of speaking in a foreign language, such as Mandarin Chinese, and I speak Mandarin Chinese in an English worship service, nobody is going to be edified. If I want to pray to God in Mandarin Chinese, I should do it in the privacy of my own closet. But if I was speaking to God in a language that even I did not understand, then there would be no edification. And words spoken without understanding are useless.

Let's remember that even the genuine manifestation of the gift of tongues is not the Spirit's greatest work. The greatest manifestation of the Holy Spirit's power is seen in human nature brought to the perfection of the character of Christ. The only purpose, therefore, in any of the supernatural working of the Spirit of God, would be to help communicate the gospel of Christ that lives may be changed.

GLOSSOLALIA AND THE TESTING OF TONGUES

Dr. Kildahl has run such tests based on a tape recording of a tongue-speaker which he played independently before several persons who were known to have the supposed gift of interpretation. Here are the results of his experiment:

“In order to investigate the accuracy of these interpreta¬tions, we undertook to play a taped example of tongue-speech privately for several different interpreters of tongues. In no instance was there any similarity in the several interpretations. The following typifies our results: one interpreter said the tongue-speaker was praying for the health of his children; another that the same tongue-speech was an expression of gratitude to God for a recently successful church fund-raising effort.” – [Kildahl p. 63]

An interpreter of glossolalia responded to the Lord's Prayer that was spoken in a Pentecostal meeting by one who wished to test the interpretation. The Lord's Prayer was spoken in an African language. The interpreter said that "it is a message about the imminent second coming of Christ." [Kildahl, 63] Here again there is no consistent correlation in the testing process of interpretation. Is this not another indication that glossolalia is no normal human language and that the interpre¬tation does not correspond to what has been said?

Think about it: If God desires to give the church a special message, why does He give it through an unknowing speech that need to be interpreted, and not directly in the known language of the church?

GLOSSOLALIA IN CONTEMPORARY NON CHRISTIAN RELIGIONS

Some studies have indicated that glossolalia is not a uniquely Christian practice. Glossolalia is practiced by a large number of native non-Christian living religions around the world. R. P. Spittler writes in the 1988 edition of the Dictio¬nary of Pentecostal and Charismatic Movements, "Whatever its origin, glossolalia is a human phenomenon, not limited to Christianity nor even to religious behavior among human¬kind." [R. P. Splitter "Glossolalia," Dictionary of Pentecostal and Charismatic Move¬ments, eds. Stanley M. Burgess and Gary B. McGee (Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan, 1988), p. 336].

There are many examples of unintelligible sounds or glossolalia from all continents and the native religions prac¬ticed on them. [L. Carlyle, May, "A Survey of Glossolalia and Related Phenomena in Non-Christian Religions," Speaking in Tongues: A Guide to Research on Glossolalia, pp. 53-82]. 

In Ethiopia in the zâr cult, "the shamans talk to the zârs (spirits) in a 'secret language'." [Goodman, p. 565]. In this instance the picture seems to involve spirit-worship.

Goodman notes, "Possession is one of the most frequent ritual occasions for the use of glossolalia. In possession, an entity from the sacred dimension of reality is experienced as penetrating the respective person.” [Ibid.]. She points out that the Spirit is experienced "as power, not as personality, but other spirits--for instance, those of the dead of the Trobriand Islanders, ancestral spirits in Africa, and various spirits in Haitian Voodoo--have pronounced personality traits that are expressed in glossolalia. . . . The voice of the possessing being differs from that of the possessed practitioner." [Ibid.]. This sounds much like the phenomena associated with séances in spiritualism. "Spiritualistic glossolalia and related phenomena among spiritual mediums were among the first studied by psychologists near the beginning of the twentieth century," writes R. P. Spittler. [Spittler in Dictionary of Pentecostal and Charismatic Movements, p. 336].

These are but a few of the many known examples of glossolalia from modern non-Christian religions. [For a fine study of glossolalia in a non-Western culture, see A. F. Anisimov, "The Shaman's Tent of the Evenks and the Origin of the Shamanistic Rite," Studies in Siberian Shamanism, ed. Henry M. Michael (Toronto, 1963)].

GLOSSOLALIA IN CONTEMPORARY LINGUISTIC STUDY

The highly respected 1972 study of John P. Kildahl concludes that "from a linguistic point of view, religiously inspired [glossolalic] utterances have the same general characteristics as those that are not religiously inspired." [Kildahl, p. 81]. We should be reminded at this point that Kildahl compares religious glossolalia with non-religious glossolalia. We are informed of the fact that glossolalia is practiced by non-religious people, including atheists and agnostics. [See Spittler, pp. 336-337]. In other words, the modern practice of glossolalia is not restricted to religious persons alone. It is a "human phenomenon, not limited to Christianity nor even to religious behavior." [Spittler, p. 340].

Experts in the field of linguistics have taken much pains to study the phenomenon of glossolalia over a period of many years. One of the early investigations was made in the early 1960's by Eugene A. Nida. He provided a detailed list of reasons why glossolalia cannot be human language. [Eugene A. Nida, "Glossolalia: A Case of Pseudo-Linguistic Structure," unpublished paper delivered at the 39th Annual Meeting of the Linguistic Society of America in New York, Dec. 28, 1964]. Another early study, that of W. A. Wolfram in the year 1966, also concluded that glossolalia lacks the basic elements of human language as a system of coherent communication. [W. A. Wolfram, "The Sociolinguistics of Glossolalia" (Master's thesis; Hartford Seminary Foundation, 1966)].

Professor William J. Samarin of the University of Toronto's Department of Linguistics published, after more than a decade of careful research, a massive study of glossolalia from a linguistic perspective. [Samarin, Tongues of Men and Angels]. In 1972 study Samarin, together with other linguists, rejected the view that glossolalia is xenoglossia, i.e. some foreign language that could be understood by another person who knew that language. Samarin concluded that glossolalia is a "pseudo-language.” Samarin defined glossolalia as "unintelligible post-babbling speech that exhibits superficial phonological similarity to language without having consistent syntagmatic structure and that is not systematically derived from or related to known languag¬es." [William J. Samarin, "Variation and Variables in Religious Glossolalia," Language in Society, ed. Dell Haymes (Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 1972) 121-30]. And the list of investigations continue…

Based on the conclusions of scholars and researchers who studied glossolalia from a variety of angles and methods of research, we may have no other recourse than to admit that the phenomenon of "speaking in tongues," or glossolalia, is an experience other than speaking in a known human language of the present or the past. On this point the studies of Samarin and those of earlier and later researchers coincide.

The general conclusion of the scholars is that glossolalia among Christians and non-Christians is the same. There is no distinction between Christian and non-Christian glossolalia. Glossolalia is not a spoken language, and if you do not know what you are saying, then, how can you pray to God in it? How can you glorify God in this way? 1 Corinthians 14:28 – “But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God.” If you know and speak Spanish as a spiritual gift, you can speak to yourself and to God”, but if what you say is not a true language, and if your mind and will don’t keep your mouth under the control and you are say syllables without sense, you cannot “speak to yourself and to God.”

In this case, can satan use my mouth? Mark 5:6-10. But if everyone in the room spoke the same language would it be necessary to use another language? It would be foolish to speak another language if everyone understood English because "he that speaketh shall be a barbarian unto me" "and you will speaking into the air." 1 Cor 14:11,9.

It seems very strange for me! It seems that one Spirit has inspired the Bible, but the other one is contradicting Him!... My will or Holy Spirit’s will? Who must give up his will? It is evident that glossolalia of non-Christians comes in conflict with the second commandment (Exodus 20:4-6). Is this the true Spirit of God? Does the Spirit of God encourage the transgression of the second commandment?


 

     
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