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Author Topic: Absolute Objective Moral Values  (Read 5599 times)

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Absolute Objective Moral Values
« on: Fri Dec 06, 2002 - 07:23:20 »
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote (marc @ Dec. 06 2002,03:37)[/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]The definition of deity, according to my old World Religions teacher, is absolute reality.  In other words Deity, by definiton, is the standard.  Deity is reality.  Any deviations we have from Deity would be on our part.  An opinion, then, would be measured against the decrees of the Deity, who would not himself have an opinion but would instead be the standard.[/quote]
I'll come back to this later when I get home from work. I do not have time to write out what I want right now.

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« on: Fri Dec 06, 2002 - 07:23:20 »

marc

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« Reply #1 on: Sat Dec 07, 2002 - 01:15:21 »
The obvious question, then, is how do you define Deity?

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« Reply #1 on: Sat Dec 07, 2002 - 01:15:21 »

Offline Apollos

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« Reply #2 on: Sun Dec 08, 2002 - 03:49:47 »
Dear BH,

To make my point simple and short, I think you are telling us that there is absolutely no such thing as Absolutes.

Thank you for listening.
Chris

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« Reply #2 on: Sun Dec 08, 2002 - 03:49:47 »

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« Reply #3 on: Mon Dec 09, 2002 - 20:07:17 »
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote (Apollos @ Dec. 08 2002,04:49)[/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Dear BH,

To make my point simple and short, I think you are telling us that there is absolutely no such thing as Absolutes.

Thank you for listening.
Chris[/quote]
Your welcome Apollos.  Have a good day.

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« Reply #3 on: Mon Dec 09, 2002 - 20:07:17 »
Pinterest: GraceCentered.com

Offline Perry from the COCN Board

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« Reply #4 on: Mon Dec 09, 2002 - 21:42:49 »
My last comment was not at all disingenous, I promise.  I honestly don't know what you are saying in this last statement:
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]There is no objective standards that absolutely proves his standard any better than mine. [/quote]
Are you saying there are no absolute truths, and if so, what about the quote above?

Perry

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« Reply #4 on: Mon Dec 09, 2002 - 21:42:49 »



Offline Perry from the COCN Board

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« Reply #5 on: Wed Dec 11, 2002 - 07:53:39 »
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote (B. H. @ Dec. 09 2002,11:16)[/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Let's imagine it this way:  Can you see 4+4= anything other than 8 if God does or does not exist????[/quote]
Heading out the door to work.  Will converse more this evening.  In answer to the math question, the answer would be no.  For if God does not exist, then neither would we.

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« Reply #5 on: Wed Dec 11, 2002 - 07:53:39 »

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Absolute Objective Moral Values
« Reply #6 on: Thu Dec 05, 2002 - 18:40:01 »
Do absolute objective moral values really exist?

By absolute I mean completely unquestionable and unchangable by anyone.  By objective I mean not relying on the minds or opinions of any person, place or thing.

It seems to me that even a deity's values would not be absolute or objective because 1. they can be questioned or changed 2. the values are not independent of the said deity's opinion.

What do all of you think?

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« Reply #7 on: Thu Dec 05, 2002 - 22:03:34 »
With all the above said, even if I granted a God exists:

-Why would I owe him anything since I did not ask to be born or created?

-Why should I think of him any different than I would a mugger or ganster that lives off of the "might makes right" philosophy?  The only real difference between an Al Capone and God is that God can beat a lot harder.

-Why follow his "moral values" when they are often times impractical in a given situation.

-Why would I want to go to  heaven?  I do not want to spend eternity with a God who has nothing but contempt for how I think and feel, who feels I am nothing but a toy for him to do with as he wishes.

Offline charlie

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« Reply #8 on: Fri Dec 06, 2002 - 08:27:39 »
Barry,

Ever read White's "The Once and Future King"? In it, Merlin talks to Arthur about the whole might makes right thing too. At the conclusion of the first Harry Potter book, the antagonist says, "there is no good or evil, there is only power and those too weak to take it." Same thing there too. Interesting, yet fruitless discussion. Either you become mighty so that you can be right in your own sight, or you submit to one mightier than yourself to be right in their sight. Either way, as you suggest, "right" is subjective, when viewed along those lines.

As a Christian, I believe that, since God made the universe and me, that he knows how it is supposed to work. He's not only all-mighty, but he's also the creator and designer. It's not just because he can destroy me that I submit to him, but because he made me. That's what makes him different from a thug on the street waving a gun in my face. The thug doesn't know me, he doesn't love me, he certainly didn't design and build me. He doesn't know or care what's best for me. God does.

Now if I didn't believe in God, I would have to decide what else is right, or else doubt that anthing is right at all. If I was mugged, I really would have no basis for protest, because after all, he's got a gun. I could only appeal to an even greater power than the mugger (the police, and a judge). But if the mugger is the judge's nephew, I might not have a case.

But since I believe in God, even if the guy gets my wallet and walks free from the courtroom, God is still there who said "Do not steal" and "do not pervert justice" and who promised to take care of me while at the same time telling me not to resist one who does evil to me. And I believe he will champion my cause and even (someday) reward me for my attitude in the face of my loss.

As to God's changing his mind, I don't believe he has. He's only revealed his mind to us in different ways as we, as a people, have grown. Think of the principles at work ever since Adam and Eve that haven't changed. God is shaping a class of beings who are totally devoted to obeying whatever he says, who are not concerned for their own gain, but the eternal life of all, who are concerned about justice, who are completely loyal to God, who stand up against his true enemies, while being compassionate to the victims of sin, and so on, and who trust him above all.

You say you don't want to go to a heaven with a god who has only contempt for your feelings. I don't either. But I don't believe that is what heaven is like, because I believe God does care what we think. But sometimes, we choose to think wrong. Would you let a child or a pet of yours develop destructive attitudes if you could help it? If I had a little girl who said to me, "boys are stupid" I'd have a good laugh. But then I'd find out why she said that and try to set her straight.

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« Reply #8 on: Fri Dec 06, 2002 - 08:27:39 »

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« Reply #9 on: Fri Dec 06, 2002 - 22:03:26 »
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]The definition of deity, according to my old World Religions teacher, is absolute reality.  In other words Deity, by definiton, is the standard.  Deity is reality.  Any deviations we have from Deity would be on our part.  An opinion, then, would be measured against the decrees of the Deity, who would not himself have an opinion but would instead be the standard.[/quote]
"The definition of deity, according to my old World Religions teacher, is absolute reality."

BH:

The deity cannot be absolute reality because we humans are part of reality, yet who would say we are deity?  Let me illustrate it this way.  God sends people to hell.  If God is absolute reality, he is actually sending himself to hell when he sends us there.  Since you don't believe God is in hell, and humans are part of absolute reality, God cannot therefore be absolute reality.

"In other words Deity, by definiton, is the standard."

BH:

I do not believe so.  The fact I simply disagree with the deity's opinion proves this so.  I could just as easily say I am the standard and the deity chooses to deviate from it.

"Any deviations we have from Deity would be on our part."

BH:

I could just turn around and say any deviations from my standard are on the part of the deity.

"An opinion, then, would be measured against the decrees of the Deity, who would not himself have an opinion but would instead be the standard."


BH:

I can say that any opinion on the part of the deity would be measured against my standard.  I can say that I am the standard as well and the deity just has "an opinion."  If the deity (or you ;) ) disagree its just your opinion.  The fact I can mentally develop a standard and say that it is the deity that deviates from me proves that the deity has nothing more than opinion.

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« Reply #10 on: Sat Dec 07, 2002 - 09:55:45 »
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--] the standards of a deity can be changed any time the deity wants to exercise his god-ness & change them.
 [/quote]
I disagree Janine.  If this is true, how can we trust God?

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--] The fact that a deity can change his/her/its mind further shows that the moral value is not absolute.
 [/quote]
BH, Are we talking about changing His mind or His standard?
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--][/quote]

BH.[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--] Why should I think of him any different than I would a mugger or ganster that lives off of the "might makes right" philosophy? The only real difference between an Al Capone and God is that God can beat a lot harder.
 [/quote]
The question you must ask yourself is “what do I really KNOW about God right now

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« Reply #11 on: Sat Dec 07, 2002 - 21:11:26 »
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Then your definition doesn't seem to hold water, since to these religions God is indeed absolute reality.  I was beginning to think that perhaps you were referring to lesser gods in the sense of Greek or Roman mythology or perhaps simply referring to any supernatural being as deity.[/quote]
I do not think that the Christian, Muslim, ect. faith teach that God is absolute reality.  When God sends people to hell, he would then be sending himself to hell since he is absolute reality.  It is self refuting logic.

Your point  is moot anyway because what those religions think is not necessarily absolute reality.  Also, it is moot because even while those religions think their god is absolute reality, they have conflicting doctrines and therefore conflicting "world/reality views."

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« Reply #12 on: Sun Dec 08, 2002 - 11:31:25 »
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--] I thought in Christian theology God's thinking equals God's standard.
 [/quote]
For clarification, I don’t believe that God’s thinking stands in contradiction to God’s standard.


[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--] Anyway, if you deny God can change his mind/standard, then you are admitting there is a moral standard seperate and apart from God. [/quote]
One time where we have God “changing His mind

Offline charlie

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« Reply #13 on: Mon Dec 09, 2002 - 12:48:17 »
To say that God changes his mind is to say that God thinks differently from one moment in time to the other. But since God is timeless, that is impossible, or at least unmeasurable by our time index. I think this is backed up by the verses:
I am not a man that I should change my mind
and
Jesus is the same yesterday, today and forever.

I believe, as I said earlier, that God's constant will for us is revealed according to our ability to understand. God doesn't change, we do. And he deals with us appropriately. In Deut 4, it tells that God didn't reveal a semblance of himself while the Israelites were in the desert, so that they wouldn't be tempted to make an image of him and worship it. I believe that if Jesus had walked among the Israelites, they would have made a gold statue of him instead of a calf. That's just the kind of people they were.

Also, your thoughts on standards/opinions of God and man are interesting. Remember, man is made in God's image. The fact that you can even call your opinion a standard testifies to that. Also, I might agree with your statement if God's opinion (standard) wasn't made before time and creation. I'm going to have to just trust my maker's standards. Besides which, I happen to realize that most of the ideas that make up my own standards are the result of interaction with other created beings like you and myself. I think a thing because someone else thought something similar.

How would you know if you ever had an original thought?

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« Reply #14 on: Mon Dec 09, 2002 - 20:55:25 »
Perry from the COCN Board
I thought in Christian theology God's thinking equals God's standard.
For clarification, I don’t believe that God’s thinking stands in contradiction to God’s standard.


***BH: Point taken into account.



Anyway, if you deny God can change his mind/standard, then you are admitting there is a moral standard seperate and apart from God.
One time where we have God “changing His mind

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« Reply #15 on: Mon Dec 09, 2002 - 21:28:05 »
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote (Perry from the COCN Board @ Dec. 09 2002,10:22)[/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--][!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--][/quote]

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--] ***BH: If God cannot change his mind, he must be bound by some rule stating he is forbidden to change his mind. [/quote]
were not even in agreement yet as to what ¡§change His mind¡¨ means, so building upon this from here would be futile, but¡K

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--] If he is not bound by some law, then he could not be stopped from changing his mind, due to the soley subjective nature of his mind. [/quote]
In other words He can change His mind?

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--] If he just chooses not to change his mind then there is not objective standard saying he cannot, his not changing his mind is just a subjective opinion on his part as well. [/quote]
In relation to there being no law saying He can¡¦t change His mind then His decision not to change His mind
Is an opinion?  What would this opinion be based on?

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--] This is the conundrum Janine wound up in. [/quote]
Lets send forth the search party.

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--] The only way a standard could be absolute and objective is if it existed seperate and apart from God, binding on even him. [/quote]
I think I would agree¡K.

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--] . If God is free to change his thoughts/standards then his standards are not absolute and objective but subjective like ours.
[/quote]
As I have stated , His thoughts and His standards may be separate things.  


[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--] ***BH: I know God has subjective standards and therfore are just opinions. [/quote]
When did you realize the folly of atheism?  ƒº

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]
There is no absolute objective standard telling me that God is owed anything on my part. [/quote]
Now that we have established that you believe in God, what will it take to change your mind on this?

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]
There is no objective standards that absolutely proves his standard any better than mine. [/quote]
Please explain this one in detail.  Seriously, I don¡¦t know what you mean¡K


Perry[/quote]
Dear Perry,

Could you please expand a little more?  I want to make sure I understand what you are asking.

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« Reply #16 on: Mon Dec 09, 2002 - 22:19:17 »
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]My last comment was not at all disingenous, I promise.  I honestly don't know what you are saying in this last statement:
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]There is no objective standards that absolutely proves his standard any better than mine. [/quote]
Are you saying there are no absolute truths, and if so, what about the quote above?

Perry[/quote]
Again we see opinion at work. :D

Just out of curiosity though  ;) let's take the phrase "There are no absolute moral values."  Now, you will say the phrase is self contradictiory right?  Well, it seems to me the validity of your charge does not depend on whether or not God exists.  Your argument against the phrase "There are no absolute moral values" seems to be valid or invalid regardless of whether God exists, simply because of the inherent nature of the phrase itself.

Is it possible that Absolute Objective Moral Values can exist without a deity?

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« Reply #17 on: Wed Dec 11, 2002 - 14:54:04 »
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote (Perry from the COCN Board @ Dec. 11 2002,07:53)[/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--][!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Let's imagine it this way:  Can you see 4+4= anything other than 8 if God does or does not exist????[/quote]
Heading out the door to work.  Will converse more this evening.  In answer to the math question, the answer would be no.  For if God does not exist, then neither would we.[/quote]
That's just your opinion Perry! ;)

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« Reply #18 on: Thu Dec 05, 2002 - 19:33:09 »
1)The standards of a deity cannot be questioned, as far as the questioning of the less-than-deity questioner having any effect on the standards; the standards of a deity can be changed any time the deity wants to exercise his god-ness & change them.

2) If the deity is deity in the first place, then his opinion would be truth.

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« Reply #19 on: Thu Dec 05, 2002 - 22:33:35 »
I'm being 100% honest with all of you here and have thought about this a whole lot.

I think that if a divine being exists, you believers can truthfully argue that a powerful subjective standard exists.  However, I do not think you could call it truly absolute because it can be at least mentally challenged if not physically overthrown by the less-than-deity types.  You cannot call it honestly objective, because the standard is subject to the opinion of the deity, a deity that can beat everyone up-true, but still just opinion nevertheless.


Believers, like unbelievers, are governed by a "might makes right" philosophy.  The only difference between the two is the strength of the one who holds "might.'  In the unbeliever's world view it is a dictator, president, sheriff, or army that simply forces his/it's view on everyone else.  The general populace just goes along to get along so to speak. In the believer's worldview, a god, demon, deity, or whatever other term one chooses rules the world.  Like the general, policeman, ect. of the non-believer's worldview, the deity rules by might and might alone.  The believers may rationalize the commands away as being good, wise, loving, kind, ect. to try to emotionally distance themselves from this fact, but it is still there.

Now, I don't care too much for this world so why would you want me to believe and desire life in a spiritual world built on the same principles this one is?

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« Reply #20 on: Fri Dec 06, 2002 - 11:34:43 »
Charlie, excellent post.

B.H., in our limited thinking it is beyond us at times to perceive the will of God. Our limited view of death and pain are not His. I have found the pain in my life to create joy...and so often at a later time than I would like...but have learned to trust God through circumstances, because the outcome is so great. My flesh still cries out and responds childlike, while I know He loves deeply and has shown me that love. I think in a lot of ways you and I have seen the same things in people and you chose different. When last year you wrote about things you have seen with school teachers and others in authority...it struck a chord in me because I have seen the same things. And there has been bitterness at times in me, but God knew my heart and He changed me and used those harsh things for good. When it comes to sin...isn't the definition doing it our way instead of God's? The things God has asked of me would definitely freak other Christians out, but He knows me so intimately that He knows what will heal and change me from the inside out. There are others that God has asked to do things that seem to fly-in-the-face of what we think Christianity looks and feels like. Does God ever allow someone to break one of the 10 commandments? Has He ever allowed killing, when it says "thou shall not kill"? Why was it David could have concubines and many wives, yet he was found guilty of adultry with Bathsheba? It has to do with love and the greater good and who we are. We are not pitiful creatures moved around on some great chessboard for God's amusement, but people whom God loves and wants to love.

Maurine

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« Reply #21 on: Sat Dec 07, 2002 - 08:14:28 »
So that brings up the question of just what is wisdom?

How can you tell which idea is wiser than other ideas in dealing with problems, advice, ect?  What would be wiser?  Create man with the ability to harm others or create him where he cannot or will not want to do harm to others?

Really, since I believe the universe has always existed without a "beginning" and that life evolved naturally, the question above is rather moot to a certain degree. The way the world is is just the way the world is.  That's just how it evolved and has nothing to do with an Eve eating the apple or gods up in heaven angry that people talked too loud on earth and kept them from sleeping.

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« Reply #22 on: Sat Dec 07, 2002 - 20:46:05 »
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote (marc @ Dec. 07 2002,12:10)[/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]BH, given what you have said I really have no idea what you are referring to when you use the term Deity.  Your concept--whatever it is--doesn't seem to go along with my idea of the definition of the word.  Could you elaborate?[/quote]
I am referring to the God of Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Bahai'sm, and Mormonism.

marc

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« Reply #23 on: Sat Dec 07, 2002 - 21:29:12 »
I just realized that I have not been using the term I thought I was using.  Somehow I've been saying absolute reality when what I meant was Ultimate Reality.  Sorry.  Once I typed the phrase that way once it continued to come.

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]I do not think that the Christian, Muslim, ect. faith teach that God is absolute reality.  When God sends people to hell, he would then be sending himself to hell since he is absolute reality.  It is self refuting logic.[/quote]

Since this seems to be the thrust of your argument (and many words come to mind when I read it, but "logic" is not one of them) against this definition of God, I would ask you to consider something.  If Hell is defined as ultimate death, which is being outside of the presence of God, and God is all and is in all, doesn't that seem to lend credence to the suggestion made by many that Hell equals oblivion?



[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Your point  is moot anyway because that those religions think is not necessarily absolute reality.  Also, it is moot because even while those religions think their god is absolute reality, they have conflicting doctrines and therefore conflicting "world/reality views.".[/quote]

Someone who claims not to believe in God, then calls God unfair is talking about moot points?   Anyway, I asked you for your definiton of Deity and you said that these religions' idea of Deity was what you were referring to, so you now seem to be arguing against yourself. (not to mention that the two paragraphs of your response contridict each other as to whether these religions consider god to be absolute reality).

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« Reply #24 on: Sun Dec 08, 2002 - 12:32:41 »
BH, here's the contridiction I referred to.  It's a small thing, and you most likely meant something else in the second instance.

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]I do not think that the Christian, Muslim, ect. faith teach that God is absolute reality[/quote]

Then in the next paragraph you say

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Also, it is moot because even while those religions think their god is absolute reality, they have conflicting doctrines [/quote]

One post says they don't teach God is "absolute reality" (using my mistaken phrase)  the second says they do.  I'm guessing that in the second instance you meant to say "even if" instead of "even while".  Otherwise, this is a contridiction.

As to Hell being a literal place and not simply separation with God, maybe, maybe not.  I'm sure God is capable of using symbolic language.  As to definitions, if the one you've previously provided is one you disagree with, what definition do you have in mind.

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« Reply #25 on: Mon Dec 09, 2002 - 20:53:44 »
BH,

"To make my point simple and short, I think you are telling us that there is absolutely no such thing as Absolutes."

That is self-defeating, isnt it? Since you displayed some knowledge of philosophy, I won't bore you with the supporting arguments.

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« Reply #26 on: Mon Dec 09, 2002 - 21:25:06 »
Hee Hee, that was a good one Perry!  I am afraid I was just speaking philosophically about a hypothetical god, but it was funny. :D  :p  :)

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« Reply #27 on: Sat Dec 07, 2002 - 20:36:10 »
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--] the standards of a deity can be changed any time the deity wants to exercise his god-ness & change them.

Perry:

I disagree Janine.  If this is true, how can we trust God?

BH:

Good point, no disrespect meant to  Janine in saying so though.

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--] The fact that a deity can change his/her/its mind further shows that the moral value is not absolute.
 [/quote]


Perry:

BH, Are we talking about changing His mind or His standard?
[/quote]

BH:

I thought in Christian theology God's thinking equals God's standard.  Anyway, if you deny God can change his mind/standard, then you are admitting there is a moral standard seperate and apart from God.   If you say God can change his mind, or has changed his mind, then you too face the conundrum you thought Janine was getting herself into.


BH.[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--] Why should I think of him any different than I would a mugger or ganster that lives off of the "might makes right" philosophy? The only real difference between an Al Capone and God is that God can beat a lot harder.
 [/quote]

Perry:

The question you must ask yourself is “what do I really KNOW about God right now

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« Reply #28 on: Tue Dec 10, 2002 - 08:40:47 »
FYI on page 2 there is a BH post that has a notation that it was edited by me. I closed an open quote tag that was messing up the display. No content changes.

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« Reply #29 on: Thu Dec 05, 2002 - 19:39:21 »
Quote
1)The standards of a deity cannot be questioned, as far as the questioning of the less-than-deity questioner having any effect on the standards; the standards of a deity can be changed any time the deity wants to exercise his god-ness & change them.

BH:

Then they are not absolute.  The non-deity person can still question them and challenge them if only mentally, or perhaps with some physical resistance.  The fact that a deity can change his/her/its mind further shows that the moral value is not absolute.  The fact that any standard depends on a deity's point of view show it is not objective either but just the opinion of the said god.

2) If the deity is deity in the first place, then his opinion would be truth.


BH:

No, the deity would just have an opinion like anyone else.  Any enforcement of that opinion would constitute "might makes right" and is no different in principle than thuggery on the streets.

marc

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« Reply #30 on: Fri Dec 06, 2002 - 02:37:12 »
The definition of deity, according to my old World Religions teacher, is absolute reality.  In other words Deity, by definiton, is the standard.  Deity is reality.  Any deviations we have from Deity would be on our part.  An opinion, then, would be measured against the decrees of the Deity, who would not himself have an opinion but would instead be the standard.

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« Reply #31 on: Fri Dec 06, 2002 - 11:32:37 »
Charlie, good response.  My previous post was just an attempt at what I understand to be an objective explanation.  In reality I think that many of our problems with God come from our limited vision and our lack of understanding.  He is so "other" that it is hard for us to see Him clearly (thus He revealed Himself to us throught he incarnation).

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« Reply #32 on: Sat Dec 07, 2002 - 01:27:58 »
On another note (and I have waited long enough to avoid "flood control") I think the reason that I don't have the same questions that BH offers is that I have a rather clear view of my own imperfections.  I am a moody, impetuous person.  From moment to moment I feel--make that know--things are absolutely a certain way, and then a while later I realize I was only reacting in the heat of the moment.

In other words I know how far short of God I really am.  And realizing how little I am able to control even my own life, I no longr believe I know how to control the universe.

I understand little.  While I see pain and imperfection around me, I can also see the hand of the One who created the universe in the many wonderful, "good" things that exist in the world.  And I have come to trust that one day this hint of heaven will be fulfilled in a perfect world.

Each of us must determine how or whether we will relate to God.  We make this determination based on our own knowledge and our own experiences.  My experiences, my knowledge and the spirit in me tell me to trust in God.

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« Reply #33 on: Sat Dec 07, 2002 - 13:45:06 »
Yes, absolute moral values exist. (One way leads to life, and one to death).

Lee Wilson

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« Reply #34 on: Sat Dec 07, 2002 - 20:49:31 »
Then your definition doesn't seem to hold water, since to these religions God is indeed absolute reality.  I was beginning to think that perhaps you were referring to lesser gods in the sense of Greek or Roman mythology or perhaps simply referring to any supernatural being as deity.