The definition of deity, according to my old World Religions teacher, is absolute reality.  In other words Deity, by definiton, is the standard.  Deity is reality.  Any deviations we have from Deity would be on our part.  An opinion, then, would be measured against the decrees of the Deity, who would not himself have an opinion but would instead be the standard.

On another note (and I have waited long enough to avoid "flood control") I think the reason that I don't have the same questions that BH offers is that I have a rather clear view of my own imperfections.  I am a moody, impetuous person.  From moment to moment I feel--make that know--things are absolutely a certain way, and then a while later I realize I was only reacting in the heat of the moment.

In other words I know how far short of God I really am.  And realizing how little I am able to control even my own life, I no longr believe I know how to control the universe.

I understand little.  While I see pain and imperfection around me, I can also see the hand of the One who created the universe in the many wonderful, "good" things that exist in the world.  And I have come to trust that one day this hint of heaven will be fulfilled in a perfect world.

Each of us must determine how or whether we will relate to God.  We make this determination based on our own knowledge and our own experiences.  My experiences, my knowledge and the spirit in me tell me to trust in God.

Then your definition doesn't seem to hold water, since to these religions God is indeed absolute reality.  I was beginning to think that perhaps you were referring to lesser gods in the sense of Greek or Roman mythology or perhaps simply referring to any supernatural being as deity.

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]BH, here's the contridiction I referred to.  It's a small thing, and you most likely meant something else in the second instance.

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]I do not think that the Christian, Muslim, ect. faith teach that God is absolute reality[/quote]

Then in the next paragraph you say

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Also, it is moot because even while those religions think their god is absolute reality, they have conflicting doctrines [/quote]

One post says they don't teach God is "absolute reality" (using my mistaken phrase)  the second says they do.  I'm guessing that in the second instance you meant to say "even if" instead of "even while".  Otherwise, this is a contridiction.

As to Hell being a literal place and not simply separation with God, maybe, maybe not.  I'm sure God is capable of using symbolic language.  As to definitions, if the one you've previously provided is one you disagree with, what definition do you have in mind.[/quote]
I see what you are saying now marc and indeed I did contradict myself, as far as my poor writing style goes but not what I actually was thinking at the time.

In the first case, I was referring to my own interpretations of Judaic, Christian, and Muslim doctrines.  I do not think their "holy texts" teach such.

However, in the second qoute I was referring to what the people in those religions may think about their god.  They claim their religion teaches God is absolute reality (though I do not think their religion  textually per see does). The Jew, Muslim, and Christian all claim to worship the same god, yet their doctrines conflict which result in different "absolute realities" which is itself absurd.

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--][/quote]

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--] ***BH: If God cannot change his mind, he must be bound by some rule stating he is forbidden to change his mind. [/quote]
were not even in agreement yet as to what ¡§change His mind¡¨ means, so building upon this from here would be futile, but¡K

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--] If he is not bound by some law, then he could not be stopped from changing his mind, due to the soley subjective nature of his mind. [/quote]
In other words He can change His mind?

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--] If he just chooses not to change his mind then there is not objective standard saying he cannot, his not changing his mind is just a subjective opinion on his part as well. [/quote]
In relation to there being no law saying He can¡¦t change His mind then His decision not to change His mind
Is an opinion?  What would this opinion be based on?

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--] This is the conundrum Janine wound up in. [/quote]
Lets send forth the search party.

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--] The only way a standard could be absolute and objective is if it existed seperate and apart from God, binding on even him. [/quote]
I think I would agree¡K.

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--] . If God is free to change his thoughts/standards then his standards are not absolute and objective but subjective like ours.
[/quote]
As I have stated , His thoughts and His standards may be separate things.  


[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--] ***BH: I know God has subjective standards and therfore are just opinions. [/quote]
When did you realize the folly of atheism?  ƒº

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]
There is no absolute objective standard telling me that God is owed anything on my part. [/quote]
Now that we have established that you believe in God, what will it take to change your mind on this?

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]
There is no objective standards that absolutely proves his standard any better than mine. [/quote]
Please explain this one in detail.  Seriously, I don¡¦t know what you mean¡K


Perry

Eh, it's no use talking to you.  We just don't speak the same language.  If you ever were really and truly a Christian, you've changed your language tapes since.

Just by virtue of being God, if there's a God at all, anything He thought was right would be right.  Anything He spoke would be.

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]
B.H., in our limited thinking it is beyond us at times to perceive the will of Allah. Our limited view of death and pain are not His. I have found the pain in my life to create joy...and so often at a later time than I would like...but have learned to trust Allah through circumstances, because the outcome is so great. My flesh still cries out and responds childlike, while I know He loves deeply and has shown me that love. I think in a lot of ways you and I have seen the same things in people and you chose different. When last year you wrote about things you have seen with school teachers and others in authority...it struck a chord in me because I have seen the same things. And there has been bitterness at times in me, but Allah knew my heart and He changed me and used those harsh things for good. When it comes to sin...isn't the definition doing it our way instead of Alla's? The things Allah has asked of me would definitely freak other Muslims out, but He knows me so intimately that He knows what will heal and change me from the inside out. There are others that God has asked to do things that seem to fly-in-the-face of what we think Christianity looks and feels like. Does God ever allow someone to break one of the 10 commandments? Has He ever allowed killing, when it says "thou shall not kill"? Why was it David could have concubines and many wives, yet he was found guilty of adultry with Bathsheba? It has to do with love and the greater good and who we are. We are not pitiful creatures moved around on some great chessboard for God's amusement, but people whom God loves and wants to love.

Maurine[/quote]


I am going to reply in the following fashion not out of an intent to mock Maurine but to give everyone an idea of what goes through my head when I read the "God is love" defense so often found in theistic arguments.

I asked my Muslim friends over at Allah Akbar Message Board the same questions I raised here about absolute standards.
Here is a letter a woman in Whereveristan sent me over the net a day or so ago concerning Allah's love and wisdom:

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Hello BH,

It is impossible to know the will of Almighty Allah, being such insignificant and ignorant beings.  I have found though that Allah is wise and loving despite my misunderstandings because he always finds a way to bless me and make sure I get the help I need to live in this world and make it day by day.

We may not understand why Allah said in the Koran that Muslim husbands can discipline their wives, women must wear sweatty and hot veils, soldiers fight jihad, or other such things.  I just know that he loves me and watches out for me.  With love I have learned to trust the other things Allah says even though I do not understand him.  When my husband is displeased and administers discipline against me, I do not allow Satan  to tempt me into thinking my husband is just a male shouvinist pig anymore.  Now I trust Allah that my husband does such for my good and welfare to keep me from sin. Also, with the love I feel Allah shows me, I no longer become embittered when the men go off to school and college while I am not even taught to read and write.  I know it is all a part of Allah's loving, kind, and great plan and purpose and all will become clear on the other side of eternity.

I thank Allah for his love and compassion to me.

Sincerely blessed,

Myriam Al-Sonja

Message typed and emailed courtesy of Abu Muhammed Bros. Corporation.

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See what I mean?

Let's imagine it this way:  Can you see 4+4= anything other than 8 if God does or does not exist?