Author Topic: Acts 13:48  (Read 3772 times)

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Offline RB

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Re: Acts 13:48
« Reply #35 on: Wed Mar 02, 2022 - 03:51:16 »
Well that is certainly true.  But in actuality, I think that Romans Chapter 4 is one of the most straight forward and least difficult of Paul's writings to understand.  But I will read what you have to say.  And I am sure that I will find something with which to contend.  ::smile::
4WD, I found Romans 4, one of the most difficult chapters of Paul's writings to properly rightly divide the truth as a young believer for well over twenty years~from 1974 to mid-eighties before I even begin to see and understand~maybe I'm just slow~but better later than never!  ::smile::

Romans 4 and Galatians three are very much speaking of the same sense in which faith is used by Paul.

The scriptural saying~" The just shall live by faith" is clearly exhibited in Genesis in the life of our spiritual father Abraham.

I'll start very soon today, it may take two or three post more....... we shall see.

« Last Edit: Wed Mar 02, 2022 - 03:53:41 by RB »

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Re: Acts 13:48
« Reply #36 on: Wed Mar 02, 2022 - 04:14:01 »
4WD, I found Romans 4, one of the most difficult chapters of Paul's writings to properly rightly divide the truth as a young believer for well over twenty years~
That is probably because you have yet to properly rightly divide the truth to be found in Romans 4; but I shall see what you have to say.

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Re: Acts 13:48
« Reply #37 on: Wed Mar 02, 2022 - 05:17:13 »
                                                                                                 Let us continue to look at FAITH and its part in the life of a child of God.  

Quote from: Paul
Romans 4:1~"What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?"
No greater person in the history of this world to call forth than the life of Abraham to prove what he possesses as pertaining to the flesh~or, another way of saying as pertaining to the power of his own will apart from the grace of God.

"Our flesh" in the scriptures speaks of the power or the desire to please God of ourselves apart from the inward working of God's Spirit to cause us to believe and fear him.

The flesh is that nature we received from the first Adam that is desperately wicked and at enmity against God~it is called in the scriptures the "old man" which is void to the image of God, deceitful above all things, etc. 
Quote from: Paul
Romans 8:3-8~"For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his."
God's law is a good, holy, and spiritual~yet man by nature has a flesh that is incapable of yielding obedience to it~and not only incapable, but he hates and despises those good, spiritual and holy laws~so, man according to his flesh cannot please God, and does note even have a desire to do so~his thoughts are WHO IS THE LORD that "I" should obey him?

So, whatever Abraham found, it surely was not IN, or, OF HIMSELF.
Quote from: Paul
Romans 4:2~"For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God."

For if Abraham were justified~The justification in this verse is "before God's law" which all men have sinned against.   

"by works"~ Works would include any act of obedience that one would have an active part in by his own will and power apart from God. This includes faith which is a work of the law!
Quote from: JESUS CHRIST
Matthew 23:23~"Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.
Quote from: John
1st John 3:23~"And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment."
Man by nature/flesh is a wicked, as saith the prophet Jeremiah~
Quote
Jeremiah 17:9~The heart is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked: who can know it?
This is not true of most but ALL MEN from the first Adam. So wicked and deceitful is man by nature that even he does not know just how wicked he truly is when left to himself.

Knowing these things, and knowing that Abraham came from a country that served other gods it was OF GOD'S mercy that he was delivered from doing as his forefathers before him had lived. You cannot bring a clean thing out of an unclean thing!
Quote
Job 14:4~"Who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean? not one."
Abraham just did not come out different from his fathers, by nature~The God of heaven called him alone from among them.
Quote
Isaiah 51:2~"Look unto Abraham your father, and unto Sarah that bare you: for I called him alone, and blessed him, and increased him."

he hath whereof to glory; but not before God~Read 1st Corinthians 1:26-31

We shall see Abraham had not one thing to do with him being a friend of God before God first elected and called Abraham into the grace in which he faithfully lived during his life of faith on the earth. 

Later RB

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Re: Acts 13:48
« Reply #38 on: Wed Mar 02, 2022 - 06:14:14 »
Conserning the first verse in Romans chapter 4, I believe you are on the wrong track already.  And it comes, probably, from your adherence to the KJV without recourse to other translations.
(KJV)Rom 4:1  What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?

Now consider another English translation, say the ESV:
Rom 4:1  What then shall we say was gained by Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh?

                                                                                                 
No greater person in the history of this world to call forth than the life of Abraham to prove what he possesses as pertaining to the flesh~or, another way of saying as pertaining to the power of his own will apart from the grace of God.

"Our flesh" in the scriptures speaks of the power or the desire to please God of ourselves apart from the inward working of God's Spirit to cause us to believe and fear him.

You have decided that "according to the flesh" in the KJV modifies the verb "hath found". You then enter into a discussion about the flesh as "desperately wicked and at enmity against God".  But that is not what Paul is speaking about.  The context of Chapter 4 says that "according to the flesh" actually modifies "our father"; The "our" is natural because of Paul's own identity as a Jew and thus as a physical descendant of Abraham. The reason for Paul's doing that in verse 1 is that it helps to set up a contrast that is important later in the chapter, namely the contrast between Abraham's role as the physical ancestor of the Jews only, and his role as the spiritual ancestor of all believers, whether they are Jews or Gentiles (vv. 11-12).

Paul's question then in verse 1 therefore means, "What shall we say with regard to Abraham the great ancestor of the Jewish people? How was he justified? By works, or by faith?"

Paul then proceeds to answer that question; and he will conclude the chapter with the basic proposition, relative for Christians today, that whoever believes, has faith, like Abraham will be justified like Abraham (4:23-25)

So then all of your discussion about the evils of the flesh is not even a point of interest at all here. But please continue.
« Last Edit: Wed Mar 02, 2022 - 06:19:17 by 4WD »

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Re: Acts 13:48
« Reply #38 on: Wed Mar 02, 2022 - 06:14:14 »

Offline RB

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Re: Acts 13:48
« Reply #39 on: Wed Mar 02, 2022 - 07:41:15 »
 
Quote from: THE HOLY GHOST
Romans 4:3~"For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. For what saith the scripture"
In all questions and controversies, the only final authority is what the scriptures declare, not what man has to say.

A child of God with inspired scriptures need not fear any man (Job 32:6-22; Psalms 119:98-100). Rather than just arguing from reason (4:2), Paul brought the scriptures to support him. The Holy Spirit moved Paul to write this as surely as He moved Moses to write Genesis 15:6. This simple verse of scripture, Genesis 15:6, was written for us to know how Abraham was justified and how we are also justified (4:23-25).

"Abraham believed God"~The event was recorded by Moses in Genesis 15:1-6, and the facts of the case are important. God blessed Abram to defeat four kings and declared He was his reward (Genesis 15:1)Abram took the liberty of the occasion to request a son other than Eliezer (Genesis 15:2-3).3. Abram showed a lack of faith in God’s earlier promises of a seed (Genesis 12:7; 13:15-16) In response, God declared that Eliezer would not be his seed, but his own son (Genesis 15:4) God told him to count the stars, for they represented the multitude of his seed (Genesis 15:5) Abraham believed God’s promise that Eliezer was not his seed, that he would have his own biological son, and that his seed would be an incredible multitude. God had promised this multitudinous seed before with a different metaphor (Genesis 13:16) The event was recorded for the benefit of Paul’s readers, both Jews, and Gentiles (4:23-25) though there was nothing exceptional about it, for Abraham had been full of faith long before this event, and it was not until his offering of Isaac did he really show faith (Hebrews 11:8-19)

Abraham believed God … but not without some serious doubts and lapses in the beginning. The very next chapter shows Abram listening to his wife to have a son by Hagar! The next chapter has Abraham laughing at God and begging for Ishmael (Genesis 17:17-18)! God mercifully described his faith without the lapses (Romans 4:3,17-22; Hebrews 11:8-19). See Isaiah 55:8-9! 

"And it was counted unto him for righteousness"This simple, profound, and important clause is of great import to the doctrine of salvation. What does it mean? How does this act of faith in Abram’s life relate to his justification? Abraham’s faith at this event was counted to him for righteousness, the grand object of Paul’s gospel of grace (1:17; 3:21; 4:3). How do we see faith counted for righteousness? Was his faith put on a scale of good to be counted (added) toward final justification?  Was this act of faith decisional regeneration of the Arminians, at which time Abraham’s old man and will of the flesh finally decided for Jesus, and he was born again, his name was written down in glory, and he was seen for the first time as righteous before God? As so many believe. Was this act of faith the instrument or means of regeneration and justification of most Calvinists, who see a decision of faith as the necessary condition, though sovereignty brought about, to be the moment that Abraham became legally righteous before God? Whatever hermeneutical and soteriological choice you make, you must define and prove Abram’s condition by nature and legal position before God in Genesis 11, 12, 13, and 14!(Just as I did above) 

This simple, profound, and important clause is repeated several times in the New Testament. Faith was “counted” to Abraham for righteousness (Genesis 15:6; Romans 4:3). Faith was “reckoned” to Abraham for righteousness (Romans 4:9-10). Faith was “imputed” to Abraham for righteousness (Romans 4:11,22-23; James 2:23). Faith was “accounted” to Abraham for righteousness (Galatians 3:6).

These are all synonyms without any significant differentiation in intent or meaning, all taken from Genesis 15:6 and used by the apostles as an important part of justification. It is our responsibility to identify the exact sense of the combined statements about faith.

Consider, “And Abraham believed Jehovah’s promise; and Jehovah counted, reckoned, imputed, and accounted Abraham’s faith in His promise to Abraham for righteousness". Every man seeks to be righteous before God, to be counted righteous by God; and God here counted Abraham as a righteous man by virtue of his faith in His promise. And this written record of Abram’s faith would one day condemn Jews and encourage us who understand this blessed truth. . There is no quantity of things to be numbered, so counted must be taken in another sense.

Count~ To esteem, account, reckon, consider, regard, hold (a thing) to be (so and so). Reckon. To consider, judge, or estimate by, or as the result of, calculation. Impute. To reckon or take into account; to reckon, regard, consider.  Account. To reckon, estimate, value, hold (a thing to be so and so). These words all mean to consider, esteem, hold, or regard (a thing) to be (so and so).  They are accounting terms for measuring the value of a person’s conduct (Matthew 18:23-24).11. Did God repay Abram’s faith with righteousness? Or commend his faith as righteous?

Consider~Abram had great faith and works long before ( Read Hebrews 11:8; Genesis 12:4,7-8; 13:4,18; 14:20,22).13. Why in the world did the priest of the Most High God bless him before he was justified? He was already elected to justification before the world began (Ephesians 1:4; 2nd Timothy 1:9; etc.). He was already fully justified in the sight of God by the everlasting covenant of grace.

God chose this act of faith to commend and approve Abram as a righteous man, which finds its value in that nothing was done of a meritorious nature, especially Law works. Abram’s example is the antithesis of salvation by Moses’ Law; Abram merely believed. His legal status did not change, but God’s approval, his assurance, and our learning did! However, even his faith was not worth much until his great work (Genesis 22:12; James 2:21-24).

We understand Genesis 15:6 as given to confound Moses’ worshippers and comfort us! Therefore, these words all mean God considers faith to be the evidence of righteousness.

Consider by combining the definitions above,   “And   Abraham believed  Jehovah’s promise; and Jehovah considered, esteemed, held, and regarded Abraham’s faith in His promise as evidence and proof of Abraham’s righteousness.  Abraham’s faith was the evidence that God officially recognized (counted, accounted, imputed, or reckoned) for Abraham’s righteousness. God formally and scripturally declared faith as the basic identifying mark of justification.

We have basically three options to prove, and we will hold fast only one of the possibilities. Arminians hold Abram was condemned before God and dead in sin, but his faith moved God to regenerate him and legally declare him righteous by Christ’s offered merits. Calvinists must hold elect Abram was regenerated and therefore believed, simultaneously according to most, and fulfilled the necessary requirement of faith to be just before God.

We believe Jesus Christ absolutely, completely, and finally justified all the elect by His substitutionary death on the cross, with faith and good works merely being evidence of it.

His faith could not be a condition, since no man has even the basis for faith (Romans 3:10-18). God established faith as the basic and initial identifying mark of justification before God. We reject all false notions of this statement that have been invented by men to glory in men.

Such as:  Abraham believed God, so God gave him the offered righteousness by virtue of his faith. Abraham believed God, so he was born again right then and there by the Spirit’s power. Abraham believed God, so the gospel became the power of eternal life to his soul. Abraham believed God, so God counted his great faith as good enough for righteousness. Abraham believed God, so God changed him from unrighteous to righteous.

Later....RB
« Last Edit: Thu Mar 03, 2022 - 15:27:06 by RB »

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Re: Acts 13:48
« Reply #39 on: Wed Mar 02, 2022 - 07:41:15 »

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Re: Acts 13:48
« Reply #40 on: Wed Mar 02, 2022 - 08:39:26 »
RB, the statement "it [Abraham's faith] was counted unto him for righteousness" is the statement that he was justified.  That is what justification is.  To be declared righteous is to be justified.  That is what Abraham obtained by his believing God.

Paul posed the question, "what did Abraham gain?"  Paul then answered the question with, "Abraham believed, [had faith in] God, and it [his faith] was counted to him as righteousness [was justified]."

I can see now why you "found Romans 4, one of the most difficult chapters of Paul's writings to properly rightly divide the truth".  You refused to read and believe what it said.

It really is just that simple.

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Re: Acts 13:48
« Reply #41 on: Wed Mar 02, 2022 - 08:55:55 »
Here is the gist of Romans Chapter 4:

(1) Abraham was justified by faith apart from works (4:1-5)

(2) This is explained and confirmed by David in Psalms 32:1-2 (4:6-8)

(3) Membership in Abraham's family is by faith, not by circumcision; therefore, Abraham is the spiritual father of both believing Gentiles and believing Jews (4:9-12)

(4) The inheritance promised to Abraham comes by faith, not by low or works of law (4:13-17a)

(5) Abraham shows us what the justifying faith is like: it means giving glory to God and believing his promises (4:17b-22)

(6) Finally, all of this is pertinent for Christians today because anyone who believes like Abraham will be justified like Abraham (4:22-23)

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Re: Acts 13:48
« Reply #42 on: Wed Mar 02, 2022 - 09:28:27 »
 
Quote from: Paul
Romans 4:4~"Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt."

Now to him that worketh"~Paul pressed forward in his argument, having proven Abraham righteous without works. He proved it by works detracting from God’s glory (4:2), which cannot be (3:27). He proved it by the declaration of scripture (Genesis 15:6), which ascribed it to faith only in the sense explained above.   The work Paul opposed was legalistic work of the Law of Moses, which he will take up in order in the following verses ~ first circumcision (4:9-12), and then the law (4:13-15).  Paul never met an Arminian, and neither had the Romans, and this should be kept in mind, as we read his choice of language for a very different situation in another one altogether. However, we can and will include all Arminians, sacramentalists, decisionalists, and others who require conditions for justification to be included in this verse by their soteriology.

Any system of salvation that requires human conditions in order to obtain it is included. It does not matter how a condition is viewed or described, if it is the determining factor. Faith is a work, ( which we showed above) when we view it as the Arminians require and teach it for eternal life.  It is a work, because it is the human effort of preachers to get the gospel to men for it, and this work includes prayer warriors, organists, giving for missions, deputation work, etc.  It is a work, because it is the necessary condition by which a man distinguishes himself from other sinners to obtain God’s grace for eternal life by wisely using his own free will. It is a greater work than Jesus Christ’s work on the cross, for that did not save anyone at all by itself, without the sinner’s contribution of his own efforts to savingly believe. It is a work for a man dead in trespasses and sins to consider the gospel as precious, when all other such men consider it foolishness (John 8:43,47; Ist Corinthians 2:14; 2nd Corinthians 4:3; etc.).  Is the reward not reckoned of grace. If work is involved in obtaining God’s mercy, then God must pay, rather than freely give it which we know He does.  If work is involved in obtaining God’s mercy, then God is a debtor rather than a free Giver. YOu cannot escape this conclusion. Work makes it an issue of debt-reward instead of grace-gift, and eternal life is a grace-gift. Paul had established justification by free grace (3:24), so work is excluded by definition.E. Grace is demerited favor – the opposite of what a man has earned and has coming to him, as our brother will explain shortly in Romans 6:23. Grace and works are mutually exclusive, as Paul will preach just a few chapters later (11:6). Grace and works are exclusive by definition. They cannot be mixed under any conditions. Grace plus anything corrupts grace, because true Bible grace is a gift of free and pure mercy. Reckoning, or accounting, of such an arrangement of conditions denies any grace involved.  Yet, justification is by free grace (Please read Romans 3:24), so that any and all works are excluded by definition. But of debt. Conditions, as Moses’ Law, make justification the result of debt, not grace. God forbid! Eternal life is the gift of God in more ways than one: it is not "offered upon conditions" anywhere in the scriptures.

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Re: Acts 13:48
« Reply #43 on: Wed Mar 02, 2022 - 11:09:44 »
With all appreciation for your devotion and love for God, I do not know how you could screw up so badly a straightforward statement by the apostle Paul.  Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. Just before that Paul said,  "...a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law" (3:28). And immediately after that Paul said, Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ (5:1).

And that is not, as you would have us believe, the faith OF Jesus Christ.  That is the faith of Abraham, Abraham's faith in God. Abraham believed God. And with that I will let you continue on to do terrible damage to the word of God without further interference from me.  I will trust that nearly everyone here will recognize the damage you are doing to what Paul wrote.


 

« Last Edit: Wed Mar 02, 2022 - 11:16:10 by 4WD »

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Re: Acts 13:48
« Reply #43 on: Wed Mar 02, 2022 - 11:09:44 »

Offline RB

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Re: Acts 13:48
« Reply #44 on: Wed Mar 02, 2022 - 13:04:09 »
[/i][/b] Just before that Paul said,  "...a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law" (3:28). And immediately after that Paul said, Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ (5:1).
In those two scriptures justification is used in two different sense all together.

I'm too busy to address it now, but will in the morning before continuing on in Romans four.
Quote from: THE HOLY GHOST
Nehemiah 8:8~"So they read in the book in the law of God distinctly, and gave the sense, and caused them to understand the reading."
No one will ever understand what they are reading UNLESS they read distinctly and apply the proper sense. You are wise, and I'm sure in your heart you agree with this.

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Re: Acts 13:48
« Reply #45 on: Wed Mar 02, 2022 - 13:46:21 »
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Re: Acts 13:48
« Reply #46 on: Thu Mar 03, 2022 - 04:11:23 »
In those two scriptures justification is used in two different sense all together.

I'm too busy to address it now, but will in the morning before continuing on in Romans four. No one will ever understand what they are reading UNLESS they read distinctly and apply the proper sense. You are wise, and I'm sure in your heart you agree with this.
Good morning 4WD~briefly, let me answer you concerning Romans 3:28 which is the conclusion drawn from Romans three; and Romans 5:1, also the conclusion of Romans four, interesting is it not?
Quote from: The gifted apostle Paul the man of God
Romans 3:20-31~"Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin. But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also: Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith. Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.
My dear brother, very briefly, or else, we shall never get finished until the Lord comes, or we both go and be with him.

"Therefore"~Why is therefore THERE? We should always ask ourselves when we are reading the word of God that question when we read that word~Therefore. It is there because Paul just proved.....
Quote from: The word of God
"For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God"
Knowing that all men are sinners, not just have sinned, but altogether were at enmity against God, both Jews and Gentiles.

Knowing this truth, by the deeds of the law of works, be whatsoever those laws are, man cannot be justified legally before God. All laws can be summed up by the Ten commandments given by Moses~and those law's purposes is to give us a knowledge of what sin and our need of mercy and a Savior.

"But now the righteousness of God without the law [is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets" The righteousness of God is what the law, prophets, and the apostles, gave witness to~this righteousness was secured by JESUS CHRIST'S faith and obedience!
Quote from: THE HOLY GHOST
Romans 3:22Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:"
The gospel is the power of God for therein is the righteousness of God revealed FROM faith TO faith. This righteousness which is freely given by grace is unto all (Jews and Gentiles) and upon all that believe. If one believes then his faith is counted unto him for righteousness or is given as evidence that he IS righteous. This evidence does not come by any works of the law, it comes by BY THE LAW OF FAITH, or, the system God has chosen to give his children peace, joy, and confront. Which we shall see after we finish Romans four where the LAW OF FAITH, or the system we live under is expounded more in depth~that's why after Romans four we read Romans 5:1,2
Quote
Romans 5:1~Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
There's the word "therefore" again, summarizing chapter four concerning the LAW OF FAITH which God has chosen for us to receive his truths concerning our free justification THROUGH JESUS CHRIST~by faith, in the gospel of Christ, give me perfect peace, and joy knowing that my sins are forgiven by Jesus' perfect faith and righteousness, which I could NEVER do enough works that would give my soul any peace, joy, or comfort of eternal life in the world to come. Besides ALL of our righteousness if we are truly honest with ourselves are worst than fifty rags.

Brother, we live under the system of the law of faith, not of the law of works. We trust totally in what Jesus did for us and what he secured for us by his holy life, death, and resurrection and ever living to make intercession for us. 

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Re: Acts 13:48
« Reply #47 on: Thu Mar 03, 2022 - 06:09:18 »
Quote from: HOLY GHOST
Nehemiah 8:8~"So they read in the book in the law of God distinctly, and gave the sense, and caused them to understand the reading."
No one will ever understand what they are reading UNLESS they read distinctly and apply the proper sense. You are wise, and I'm sure in your heart you agree with this.

We have here the irony of ironies.  First, RB, you don't even have the proper sense of the meaning of Nehemiah 8:8. You would have us believe that Ezra and the others were presenting some nuanced meaning in their reading of the law.  That appears not to be the case.  As so many commentaries have established, the problem was that those listening to the reading of the law had been in Babylonian captivity so many years they no longer were proficient, or had any understanding at all, in the Hebrew language. So that those reading the law in Hebrew had to translate it into the language the listeners understood.

Second, so that what Nehemiah 8:8 is telling us is precisely what you refuse to do and accept; that is, to recognize the importance of the original language of the scriptures.

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Re: Acts 13:48
« Reply #48 on: Thu Mar 03, 2022 - 06:39:05 »
In those two scriptures justification is used in two different sense all together.
Nah. In those two scriptures justification is used in precisely the same sense in both. Quite simply to justify is to declare righteous, to impute righteousness.

The only other "sense" is that of the RCC in which it is not an imputation of righteousness, but rather an impartation of righteousness.  But neither of us are RCC and thus both, I think, reject that meaning.  That justification means to declare righteous rather than to make righteous is seen in the use of the verb dikaioo in Luke 7:29, which says literally that the people who heard Jesus’ teaching about John the Baptist “justified God” (KJV). Obviously this cannot mean that the people made God righteous; they were simply declaring or acknowledging him to be righteous. Thus the NASB translates this as “They acknowledged God’s justice,” and the NIV says they “acknowledged that God’s way was right.” Likewise when God justifies us he is not making us righteous but is declaring us so.

And that is the sense of the word "justified" in both Romans 3:28 and Romans 5:1.
« Last Edit: Thu Mar 03, 2022 - 06:57:02 by 4WD »

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Re: Acts 13:48
« Reply #49 on: Thu Mar 03, 2022 - 11:41:25 »
This righteousness which is freely given by grace is unto all (Jews and Gentiles) and upon all that believe. If one believes then his faith is counted unto him for righteousness or is given as evidence that he IS righteous.
You have done this before.  But no matter how many times you say so, there is nothing in that passage that says anything about being given evidence of righteousness. It says faith is counted unto him for righteousness.  Counted unto him; accredited to him, reckoned to him, imputed to him.  He was declared righteous. And that, like Abraham, because he believed, i.e., had faith in God. He wasn't given evidence; he was counted as righteous.

Gen 15:6  And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness. What was the "it" counted to Abraham?  It was his faith in the Lord. He wasn't justified by his works; he was justified by his belief in God.

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Re: Acts 13:48
« Reply #50 on: Thu Mar 03, 2022 - 12:36:34 »
Gen 15:6  And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness. What was the "it" counted to Abraham?  It was his faith in the Lord. He wasn't justified by his works; he was justified by his belief in God.
This scripture will be covered in-depth very soon.

Your Soteriology is based on your rejection of human depravity. You reject Paul's teaching from Romans 3:9-19.

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Re: Acts 13:48
« Reply #51 on: Thu Mar 03, 2022 - 12:58:13 »
Quote from: Paul
Romans 4:5~"But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

"But to him that worketh not"~There is another plan of salvation, different from most~the Bible plan, revealed from heaven, which rejects works.

The Bible plan sees human cooperation and efforts the result of grace, not conditions for it! Salvation is of the LORD! We do not compromise that glorious declaration in any way at all! 4WD, Faith is definitely a work~a work that God expects and requires (John 6:28-29), but it is not a legal, Jewish work of the Law, when it rests on the gracious and finished gift of God. As we said above and many times before....Faith is definitely commandment-keeping (Ist John 3:23), but it is the acceptable evidence of justification when it is viewed as evidence of those justified by God’s grace in Christ Jesus.

The works Paul condemned are works of the Law viewed as conditions for justification.

"But believeth"~The Arminian shouts, “See, faith is not a work. Can you read Paul’s words? Leave us alone!” The Calvinist shouts, “See, faith is the instrument! Can you read Paul? Leave us alone!” We reject both Arminianism and Calvinism as manmade theories about salvation that are partial in God’s word. The contrast here by Paul is faith, Abraham’s faith in context, as opposed to works of Moses’Law like circumcision and the several hundred other commandments (4:9-15). Paul had never met an Arminian or Calvinist, so he was not defending either view of faith. He had met plenty of Jewish legalists, and he condemned their heresy on the grounds of faith.

Justifying faith here is faith that believes God justifies the ungodly by grace alone. Period!

"On him that justifieth the ungodly"~ The only faith that works in this context is faith in God as Justifier of the ungodly, of wicked enemies, not in God as Justifier of the believer, of the faithful, of the obedient, etc.  An Arminian’s faith generally rests on God justifying believers on the basis and/or merit of their faith produced by their free will ~thus faith becomes a meritorious, conditional work. If an Arminian denies this, it is due to their own confusion about their contradictory doctrine. God justifies men by free grace through Jesus Christ’s redemptive work (3:23-26; 8:28-33; etc.). They were chosen in Christ, died for by Christ, and had Christ’s work applied by the spirit when they were dead sinners following the devil (Ephesians 2:1-7; Titus 3:3-7; etc.).No wonder Samuel Richardson and William Kiffen in 1647 wrote against faith in believing as the means for justification, for they were sick of Arminian confidence in faith rather than in Jesus Christ  There is a means of justification~the means of death of the testator (Hebrews 9:12-15).

"His faith is counted for righteousness"~The identical language used of Abraham (Genesis 15:6) and Phinehas (PLEASE Psalms 106:31) is used here for those who show their righteousness by faith in God and His Son Jesus Christ (4:23-25). Faith is the first evidence of righteousness granted by God for numerous reasons.:

Faith is the consequence of bestowed righteousness through Jesus Christ (2nd Peter 1:1) Faith in God from men without understanding by nature is evidence indeed (3:11). Faith in God from men that never sought God by nature is evidence indeed (3:11). Faith in God from men that had no fear of God before their eyes is evidence (3:18) Why cannot men see and understand this simple truth? I know why.

Quote from: Paul
Romans 4:5~"But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Think with me for a moment~Is our faith counted for righteousness that God accepts as fulfilling the law of Law? OR, is our faith the EVIDENCE we are righteous before God? That question should be simple to answer UNLESS one is blinded by his own bias against the truth.
« Last Edit: Thu Mar 03, 2022 - 13:04:25 by RB »

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Re: Acts 13:48
« Reply #52 on: Thu Mar 03, 2022 - 13:30:07 »
Your Soteriology is based on your rejection of human depravity. You reject Paul's teaching from Romans 3:9-19.
No I do not reject Paul's teaching of human depravity. I reject Calvinist teaching of Total Depravity.

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Re: Acts 13:48
« Reply #53 on: Thu Mar 03, 2022 - 13:37:45 »
Think with me for a moment~Is our faith counted for righteousness that God accepts as fulfilling the law of Law? OR, is our faith the EVIDENCE we are righteous before God? That question should be simple to answer UNLESS one is blinded by his own bias against the truth.
Neither.  You have presented a false choice.  It has nothing to do with fulfilling the law of Law. And it has nothing to do with EVIDEMCE of anything. It has only to do with believing in God, as did Abraham.  And it is in believing in God that He credits that belief to us as righteousness.  Because we believe in Him, He declares us to be righteous.  And that is justification.

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Re: Acts 13:48
« Reply #54 on: Thu Mar 03, 2022 - 15:40:18 »
 
Quote
Romans 4:6~"Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works"

"Even as David also'~What is the also here for? It is an Old Testament passage teaching what Paul had just taught. Remember, the thought made in verse 5 now being confirmed is justification of the ungodly.  God justifies men by His grace through the merits of Jesus Christ, as was stated (3:23-26).  Paul had already given the Bible example of Abraham’s justification without works (4:2-3).  Paul had already argued that justification by grace could not possibly includes works (4:4-5).  Then he invoked David, a psalmist, and prophet, who had written of justification (Psalms 32:1-2). Paul defined legal justification of the ungodly (3:23-26; 4:5), and he confirmed it by David.  He used the scriptures so revered by the Jews to confirm that justification is without works. 

"Describeth the blessedness of the man'~  David’s 32nd Psalm describes and lists the blessings of sinners being forgiven and justified.  The forgiveness of sins, especially the legal aspect of such, is a great blessing (Ephesians 1:3-7).  The covering of sins, so that even God cannot remember them, is a great blessing (Hebrews 8:12).  The refusal to count, account, reckon, consider, esteem, or regard a man as a sinner – through the substitutionary work of Jesus Christ, of course~is a great blessing (3:23-26; 2nd Corinthians 5:21).  When rightly understood, God’s gracious gift should bind us to give thanks (2nd Thessalonians 2:13).  When rightly understood, God’s gracious gift should motivate us to service (2nd Corinthians 5:14-15).

"Unto whom God imputeth righteousness"~Impute. To reckon or take into account; to reckon, regard, consider. Here is the first of six uses of the verb impute in this chapter of Romans (4:6,8,11,22,23,24). 


"Unto whom God imputeth righteousness"~Remember, from 4:3 above, that impute is a synonym with count, account, and reckon.  If God inputs righteousness then faith is not the means, it can only be the evidence that righteousness has been imputed to our account based upon the merits of Jesus Christ.

God counts, accounts, reckons, regards, or considers some men to be righteous........

"Without works"~  How does Psalm 32 deny works? Since there is no such negative statement in Psalm 32:1-2.  How does Psalm 32 deny works? By virtue of its positive statement of a God-given blessing and its silence about any works or other conditions being the moving cause for God’s gift.
« Last Edit: Thu Mar 03, 2022 - 15:48:28 by RB »

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Re: Acts 13:48
« Reply #55 on: Fri Mar 04, 2022 - 04:30:35 »
Quote from: Paul
Romans 4:7~Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.

"Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven"~Here are the actual words from Psalm 32:1 brought forward by Paul by the Holy Ghost. The holy God of heaven forgives sins by virtue of Christ’s shed blood NOT by virtue of a person's faith that's so widely believed. (Ephesians 1:7; Hebrews 9:15).
Salvation by God’s grace and choice is a great blessing that binds us to praise (2nd Thessalonians 2:13). The inspired implication and application, by virtue of this passage’s silence regarding any conditions or works, was sufficient to the Holy Ghost and Paul to refute Jewish thinking.

"And whose sins are covered"~Our sins are covered by the blood of Jesus Christ through the forbearance of God (3:23-26).  Our sins are covered by the blood of the Lamb, Whom we shall praise forever (Revelation 1:5). If the blood (death) of Christ covers our sin, then it is NOT done by any work on our part, including our faith! Especially so, knowing man by nature cannot please God UNTIL they first have the Spirit of God within them which comes by the new birth. 
Quote from: Paul
Romans 4:8~"Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin"

"Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin"~]Again,  Impute. To reckon or take into account; to reckon, regard, consider. Here is the second of six uses of the verb impute in this chapter (4:6,8,11,22,23,24) Remember, from 4:3 above, that impute is a synonym with count, account, and reckon. God counts, accounts, reckons, regards, or considers some men to be righteous and declares them so through the finished work of Jesus Christ by the evidence of their faith in Him.  How does a just God not impute sin where it belongs?  ONLY by virtue of Jesus Christ (Please consider: 3:23-26)!  The inspired implication and application, by virtue of this passage’s silence regarding any conditions or works, was sufficient to the Holy Ghost and Paul to refute Jewish and modern-day thinking.  Notice carefully, the words of Psalm 32:2 are not used here, which will be implied soon in 8:1-4.
« Last Edit: Fri Mar 04, 2022 - 04:33:14 by RB »

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Re: Acts 13:48
« Reply #56 on: Fri Mar 04, 2022 - 04:50:15 »
"Unto whom God imputeth righteousness"~Remember, from 4:3 above, that impute is a synonym with count, account, and reckon.  If God inputs righteousness then faith is not the means, it can only be the evidence that righteousness has been imputed to our account based upon the merits of Jesus Christ.

God counts, accounts, reckons, regards, or considers some men to be righteous........
You have a wrong concept of imputation.  God does not consider anyone, save Jesus Christ alone, to be righteous.  And you are misguided in thinking that righteousness has been imputed to our account based upon the merits of Jesus Christ.

You have assumed that the righteousness of Christ that is imputed to us includes his active righteousness, i.e., his satisfaction of or obedience to the commandments of the law. With Christ’s perfect obedience put down on our account, God can look at us and declare us “not guilty,” thus treating us just as if we had never sinned. But this is not correct. But don't feel too badly; it is a very common mistake.

Christ did indeed obey the law perfectly, but he did so because as a human being this was his own personal responsibility and duty. It was necessary for his own sake; it was what he ought to have done, even apart from his saving purposes. Thus in terms of his active righteousness, even the sinless Christ is an “unprofitable servant” (Luke 17:10, KJV). He has no extra merits left over, so to speak, to share with anyone else.

This does not mean, of course, that his perfect obedience is irrelevant to our salvation. His perfect life was a prerequisite for his perfect sacrifice. Without the former, he could not have been the latter. What, then, is imputed to our account as the basis for our justification? Not Christ’s active righteousness—his life, his doing; rather his passive righteousness—his dying. Jesus not only satisfied the commandments of the law; he also satisfied the law’s requirements for penalty. He took its punishment in our place through his substitutionary and propitiatory death on the cross. This is the “one act of righteousness” that constitutes the righteousness of God: “Even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men” (Rom 5:18). Thus the righteousness of God revealed in the gospel and imputed to our account is Christ’s satisfaction, on our behalf, of the law’s requirement for penalty.

In essence the righteousness of God is the blood of Christ. This is why to be justified (declared righteous) does not mean that I am treated just as if I’d never sinned; rather, to be justified means to be treated just as if I’d already paid the penalty of eternal condemnation. As sinners justified by the blood of Christ we do not have to worry about hell because (as far as God is concerned) we have already been there, have paid our eternal debt, and have been released. One of my most favorite verses in all of God's word: Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.

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Re: Acts 13:48
« Reply #57 on: Fri Mar 04, 2022 - 05:15:30 »
 
"Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin"~]Again,  Impute. To reckon or take into account; to reckon, regard, consider. Here is the second of six uses of the verb impute in this chapter (4:6,8,11,22,23,24) Remember, from 4:3 above, that impute is a synonym with count, account, and reckon. God counts, accounts, reckons, regards, or considers some men to be righteous and declares them so through the finished work of Jesus Christ by the evidence of their faith in Him
As I noted above, God does not consider anyone righteous.  He declares us righteous.  That does not mean He declares us not guilty; it means He declares that the penalty for our being guilty has been paid.

And it is not evidence of faith that is counted as righteousness; it is faith that is counted as righteousness.  "Abraham believed God, and it [Abraham's belief, his faith] was counted to him as righteousness."
« Last Edit: Fri Mar 04, 2022 - 05:41:50 by 4WD »

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Re: Acts 13:48
« Reply #58 on: Fri Mar 04, 2022 - 11:56:34 »
GB, to say you are blind would be an understatement~You are not only blind but you cannot hear, speak, with any understanding. Sins were forgiven in the OT just as they are in the NT, that has never changed.

The animal sacrifices were a shadow of what the Prophesied "High Priest" of God would do to provide for the forgiveness of sins. But when the "New High Priest" came, things did most definitely change. Not according to you or Jimmy Swaggert, or the other religions of this world, but according to the Word's of the Holy Scriptures.

Yes, forgiveness was always made possible by the "Works" of the Lord's Christ, but only a fool refuses see that men, in Paul's time, were no longer required to bring a Sin Offering to a Levite Priest. While men, before Christ came in the Flesh, were required by Law to seek out the Levite Priest for forgiveness of sins. I posted the very Word's of God which clearly show this. If you had a little more respect for the God of the Bible, perhaps you would acknowledge what is right in front of your face.


Quote
Have you never read so much as this: Every child of God's promises in the OT sins were forgiven even as those in the NT, to think otherwise shows a man's pure ignorance of the word of God and the gospel of Jesus Christ. Sins are forgiven by the imputation of Christ's righteousness to them in both Testaments.

I just posted from your own Bible, the Word's of the Very God who inspired it, in which God Himself tells Israel how to proceed when their sin became known to them.

Of course, you can't accept this because your religion is founded on the Popular Religious Philosophies of the "other voices" in this world, not on the Word of God Jesus said men were to Live by. Of course you won't admit any error, just as the Mainstream Preachers of Jesus Time wouldn't admit what the Scriptures clearly exposed regarding the "Commandments of men they taught for doctrines. So I don't expect you to ever choose Scriptures over the imaginatio9ns of your own mind. Jesus said you can not be persuaded.

Quote
What changed were those weak and beggarly elements that typified and were a shallow of things to come in the true worship of Jesus Christ post the cross.

What changed was the High Priest, which we are required to go to for forgiveness. In the Old Covenant, they were to go to a Levite Priest, and bring an unblemished sin offering before Forgiveness was granted, according to the Covenant God made with Levi... In the new covenant, people are to go to God's New High Priest, the Lord's Christ, the True Passover Lamb.

The Jews, because they didn't believe Jesus was that New high Priest David spoke of "After the Order of Melchizedek", were still requiring the Priesthood "Works of the Law" for forgiveness. These truths are not taught in the religions of this world you are promoting. But if a person would actually read the Holy Scriptures, and not the "other voice" in the garden God placed us in, they would see that this is true.

Quote
The priesthood changed and all connected with the priesthood; the place of worship changed, the location of worship forever changed; and the people of God changed to include every nation under heaven~etc., etc.

Yes, the Priesthood changed. Not God's definition of Good, Holy, Clean or Righteousness.

This is why Paul and Jesus both taught to "Be ye separate", and "take Heed of "Many" who come in Jesus Name", and to "Come out of her". I know you won't be persuaded, Jesus flat out said so, but for others reading along, I hope you might consider these things, and place your trust in the Scriptures, and the God which Inspired them.

Which is what 4WD did on his examination of Acts.



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Re: Acts 13:48
« Reply #59 on: Sat Mar 05, 2022 - 04:08:12 »
 
The animal sacrifices were a shadow of what the Prophesied "High Priest" of God would do to provide for the forgiveness of sins.
Briefly~You are saying much what the RCC priest teach~they can forgive your sins by confessing to them! The priest under the Jews' religion did not have the power to forgive sins or provided means where the comers' sin would be forgiven, for many reasons.
Quote
Mark 1:42-44~And as soon as he had spoken, immediately the leprosy departed from him, and he was cleansed. And he straitly charged him, and forthwith sent him away; And saith unto him, See thou say nothing to any man: but go thy way, shew thyself to the priest, and offer for thy cleansing those things which Moses commanded, for a testimony unto them."
As in these scriptures, the priest served in the temple in many capacities, NONE of which was to forgive sins! Read: Mark 2:7; Luke 5:21~ Jesus had the power to forgive sins since he was God manifest in the flesh.... a doctrine you reject! Matthew 9:6; Luke 5:24, etc.

Even those sacrifices offered because of their sins often times the SAME sacrifice were used over and over again~not only that, but those sacrifices NEVER put sins away~true believers who came KNEW that those offerings pointed to CHRIST~and those offerings only put it off until the next year when it had to be done again. So the remembrance of their sins was ever with them, in the sense those sacrifices and offerings, God truly had no pleasure in~the Jews' religion was a temporary religion until the promised Messiah would come and then It was to be forsaken for the religion of Jesus Christ. All of their types and shadows pointed to a much better covenant where true worshipers would worship God IN spirit and truth.
Quote from: GB on: Yesterday at 11:56:34
But when the "New High Priest" came, things did most definitely change. Not according to you or Jimmy Swaggert, or the other religions of this world, but according to the Word's of the Holy Scriptures.
GB, not going down this rabbit trail with you since it is taking us totally away from ACTS 13:48. Will only say a few words.

I will say this: you are much closer to Jimmy Swaggart than I'am. He's a true Armenian~he Believes much like you except he does not live under the dietaries laws of the OT as you do and Sabbath-keeping as you practice. But, when it comes to his doctrine on salvation from sin and condemnation you are one with him~in other words......... brothers! 
Quote from: GB on: Yesterday at 11:56:34
Yes, forgiveness was always made possible by the "Works" of the Lord's Christ,
Salvation under the New Covenant was secured by Christ for God's elect! Would you like to go to John 17 with me and debate that chapter for it is against your man-made religion that you SO trust in. Or, let's go to Psalm 89 where David sings of the faithfulness of God in providing for the salvation of his elect through Jesus Christ.
Quote from: GB on: Yesterday at 11:56:34
but only a fool refuses see that men, in Paul's time, were no longer required to bring a Sin Offering to a Levite Priest. While men, before Christ came in the Flesh, were required by Law to seek out the Levite Priest for forgiveness of sins.
Sir, the forgiveness of sins in BOTH testaments was FREELY imparted by the grace of God~no man had to seek out another man to have God forgive them of sin legally! If a person was forgiven by God, then THEIR FAITH was the evidence that they were forgiven and was a child of God. Hebrews 11 should convince all of this truth. You prove to me WHO did Abel seek for forgiveness, Noah, Abraham, Rahab, etc.? Let me help out....God sovereignly regenerated them and BY FAITH they did righteous deeds which show forth their righteous heart! Just as in our days, the new birth has always been the same for the very beginning, NOTHING HAS CHANGE~what has changed is the revelation of the religion of Jesus Christ which was started around two thousand years ago where true believers show forth their faith in God's Son by being baptized into HIS RELIGION showing forth their faith in him. True worshippers worship God in spirit (from their hearts) and in truth, according to the revelation of the New Covenant. Numbers are not important for where two or three are gathered together in Jesus' name, he is in their midst.

The rest of your babbling is not worthy of any comments. You make very little sense and serve very little good if any if the truth was known.

Address  Acts 13:48 and other such scriptures used above. Again, John 17 would be a nice place to start~or, Romans 9.
« Last Edit: Sat Mar 05, 2022 - 04:11:44 by RB »

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Re: Acts 13:48
« Reply #60 on: Sat Mar 05, 2022 - 05:30:37 »
Let me help out....God sovereignly regenerated them and BY FAITH they did righteous deeds which show forth their righteous heart! Just as in our days, the new birth has always been the same for the very beginning, NOTHING HAS CHANGE
But MUCH HAS CHANGED.  There is nothing in the whole of the OT that speaks of anyone being regenerated.  The Old Covenant was not such that regeneration was available.  That came with the New Covenant. John the Baptist introduced it as baptism with the Holy Spirit.  Jesus spoke to Nicodemus about it as born of water and the Spirit.

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Re: Acts 13:48
« Reply #61 on: Sat Mar 05, 2022 - 06:25:12 »
But MUCH HAS CHANGED.  There is nothing in the whole of the OT that speaks of anyone being regenerated.  The Old Covenant was not such that regeneration was available. 
4WD, it is amazing that you would even make such a statement! I would expect more from you~but, that being said, it does not surprise me, for many believe just as you do.

So, what are you going to do with so many scriptures which can be produced to prove this is a great error of many.

By faith Abel....by faith Noah...by faith Enoch....by faith Abraham.....through faith Sara also....by faith Isaac...by faith Jacob...by faith Joesph....by faith Moses....by faith they passed through the Red sea...by faith the walls of Jericho fell...by faith Rahab the harlot perished not....Gedeon, and of Barak, and of Samson, and of Jephthae; of David also, and Samuel, and of the prophets....Who through faith subdued kingdoms, wrought righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions, Quenched the violence of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, out of weakness were made strong, waxed valiant in fight, turned to flight the armies of the aliens. Women received their dead raised to life again: and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection: And others had trial of cruel mockings and scourgings, yea, moreover of bonds and imprisonment: They were stoned, they were sawn asunder, were tempted, were slain with the sword: they wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins; being destitute, afflicted, tormented; (Of whom the world was not worthy:) they wandered in deserts, and in mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth. And these all, having obtained a good report through faith , received not the promise:

Without the new birth, it is impossible to have faith that would have caused these SAINTS to do what they did! You need to reconsider your doctrine concerning the new birth!
Quote from: 4WD on: Today at 05:30:37
The Old Covenant was not such that regeneration was available.
As a covenant of work, it could NOT, yet God's everlasting covenant of grace ran "SIDE BY SIDE" with the old covenant until its full revelation was made known after the death of Jesus Christ. Noah found GRACE in the eyes of the Lord God, did he not?
Quote from: Moses
Genesis 6:7,8~"And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them. But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.
And if by grace, then it was not of works of the law!
Quote
Even so then at this present time (Just as it was in the OT~RB) also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work."
Quote from: 4WD on: Today at 05:30:37
Jesus spoke to Nicodemus about it as born of water and the Spirit.
And Jesus rebuked him for NOT knowing this truth that was clearly revealed in the OT scriptures.
Quote from: JESUS CHRIST
John 3:10~"Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?"
4WD, you need to rethink your position, for it is clearly against the scripture
« Last Edit: Sat Mar 05, 2022 - 06:28:34 by RB »

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Re: Acts 13:48
« Reply #62 on: Sat Mar 05, 2022 - 06:37:40 »
Quote from: on: Today at 05:30:37
Jesus spoke to Nicodemus about it as born of water and the Spirit.
Briefly~You are adding to God's word! The new birth is a birth by God's Spirit alone~you are adding water, which God never added.
Quote from: JESUS CHRIST
John 3:8~The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
Water from verse five is OMITTED for a reason since Jesus was simply answering Nicodemus' question and if Nicodemus had not mentioned re-entering his mother's womb, then water would have NEVER come up this discourse concerning the new birth.

One needs to be born ONLY ONCE from their mother's womb but all who are born of the flesh MUST be born again before they have the gift of faith. Selah

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Re: Acts 13:48
« Reply #63 on: Sat Mar 05, 2022 - 06:48:27 »
4WD, it is amazing that you would even make such a statement! I would expect more from you~but, that being said, it does not surprise me, for many believe just as you do.
I have to leave now but I will come back to respond.

Offline RB

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Re: Acts 13:48
« Reply #64 on: Sat Mar 05, 2022 - 12:28:00 »
I have to leave now but I will come back to respond.
Please do~also, GB needs to, but pretty sure this would take him away from his comfort zone of trying to talk about things he has no clue about.

He's pretty much exhausted his Bible knowledge in what he has posted so far.

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Re: Acts 13:48
« Reply #65 on: Sat Mar 05, 2022 - 14:57:57 »
There is nothing in the whole of the OT that speaks of anyone being regenerated.
Not in those words...

Regeneration
Strong's Number G3824 matches the Greek παλιγγενεσία (palingenesia), which occurs 0 times in 0 verses in the LXX Greek Old Testament.

Baptism
Strong's Number G908 matches the Greek βάπτισμα (baptisma), which occurs 0 times in 0 verses in the LXX Greek Old Testament.

Nonetheless... Ezekiel 37 is all about regeneration. ::smile::

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Re: Acts 13:48
« Reply #66 on: Sun Mar 06, 2022 - 04:44:13 »
Not in those words...

Regeneration
Strong's Number G3824 matches the Greek παλιγγενεσία (palingenesia), which occurs 0 times in 0 verses in the LXX Greek Old Testament.

Baptism
Strong's Number G908 matches the Greek βάπτισμα (baptisma), which occurs 0 times in 0 verses in the LXX Greek Old Testament.

Nonetheless... Ezekiel 37 is all about regeneration. ::smile::
Yes, but that is a prophecy of things to come.  It is in fact a prophecy of the coming of the kingdom of God which, I believe, most theologians understand was established by the death of Jesus Christ on the cross and was inaugurated at Pentecost.   It is a prophecy of the establishment of the New Covenant. See also Chapter 36:25-27.

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Re: Acts 13:48
« Reply #67 on: Sun Mar 06, 2022 - 04:50:09 »
Quote
Romans 4:9~"Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also?   for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness."

"Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only"~Justification is called "this" blessedness; David rightly described it as such (4:6-8; Psalms 32:1-2). Every child of God is bound to thank God always for His choice in salvation concerning his free justification by grace through Jesus' righteousness. (2nd Thessalonians  2:13).

Circumcision is used in this context, as in other places also, to identify Jews from Gentiles. Paul continued to move forward in his argumentation to refute Jewish legalism and its assumed national superiority over Gentiles in all matters, including justification before God.

"Or upon the uncircumcision also'~Uncircumcision is used in this context, as in other places also, to identify Gentiles from Jews. Though Paul had already stated the conclusion to the question, he led the Jews to the answer.

"For we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness"~Paul had shown from the Jewish scriptures that God declared Abram righteous by faith (4:3). This is the only basis we should ever say anything authoritatively~ inspired wisdom from God revealed for us to know the truth in any matter (Job 32:6-10; Psalms 119:128; 2nd Timothy 3:16-17). Here Paul used the synonym reckoned for counted in Genesis 15:6 and in Romans 4:3.

Whether counted, reckoned, accounted, or imputed, the sense is the same~God considered, esteemed, regarded, and declared Abraham’s faith as the evidence of his righteousness
Quote from: Paul
Romans 4:10~"How was it then reckoned?  When he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision. "

"How was it then reckoned"~Paul continued his questions to lead his readers to their own conclusion from Abraham’s life. How (or when) was faith reckoned to him for righteousness? What were his circumstances? Here is where a timeline of Abraham’s life is so important … to see Genesis 15:6 (faith counted to Abraham for righteousness) before Genesis 17:24 (Abraham’s circumcision).

"When he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision?'~Ah, the power of an inspired point! Praise God the Holy Spirit! When was Abram justified? Was Abraham declared righteous as a circumcised man, or as an uncircumcised man? Did God count Abraham a righteous man by his faith, when circumcised, or uncircumcised?

"Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision"~The wise and scriptural answer is simple, for the chronology of Genesis reveals it clearly. Abraham was declared righteous in Genesis 15:6, but he was circumcised in Genesis 17:24! The evidence would indicate there were at least 15 years between the two events. A timeline of Abraham’s life is a very useful device to help get a visual picture of the events. To those who adored their ritualistic surgery, this consideration would have been powerful! How essential or important could circumcision be toward justification,   if  Abraham were justified many years before he was circumcised? The answer is obvious to honest readers.
Quote from: Paul
Romans 4:11~"And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:"

"And he received the sign of circumcision"~God gave Abraham the ritual of circumcision in His timing … after declaring him righteous! God gave Abram the rite of circumcision as a sign, not a meritorious condition or instrument. God gave the rite to Abraham~ note the passive voice~he did not originate it to please God. Choose to be fair and honest with God’s word to avoid confusing conditions and evidence,for the rite of circumcision was an evidence of righteousness, not a condition or means for it. We appreciate every word of God, here it is a sign, and in Ist Peter 3:21 it is a figure, both of which remind us that there was no actual, literal, inherent saving power in either ordinance. Circumcision was a sign of faith and righteousness; baptism is a figure of salvation by Christ.

"seal of the righteousness of the faith"~Circumcision was a sign, token, or emblem, of God’s declaration of Abram’s righteous faith. It was God’s outward ordinance acknowledging Abraham’s righteousness evidenced by faith. Baptism is a New Testament ordinance used by both sexes, authorized after qualifying by another disciple of Christ's gospel~ that is the seal of the righteousness of faith in Jesus Christ as Saviour. God further gives the Holy Spirit as a seal and earnest to such believers (Ephesians  1:13-14).

"Which he had yet being uncircumcised"~Paul restated his key conclusion~Abraham was uncircumcised when declared righteous. What did uncircumcised Abram have? Faith as evidence approved by God for righteousness.

"That he might be the father of all them that believe"~Why did God declare Abraham righteous by virtue of his faith before he was circumcised?So all believers, whether Jew or Gentile, could look to him as the example of free justification by the grace of God through Jesus Christ. God kept circumcision out of the matter of justification by arranging for it 15 years later.

"Though they be not circumcised"~There is no problem for an uncircumcised Gentile when it comes to justification, even in light of Abram as the Bible example, for he was uncircumcised when declared righteous! Gentiles were not excited by this ritualistic surgery of the Jews, and they did not need to be!

"That righteousness might be imputed unto them also"~Abraham was circumcised long after he was declared righteous to be of comfort to Gentiles. Gentiles may confidently assure themselves of righteousness by the evidence of their faith ALONE Here Paul chose the synonym imputed for counted (4:3) and reckoned (4:9) used before. The sense is the same~God declares men righteous by virtue of the evidence of true faith.

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Re: Acts 13:48
« Reply #68 on: Sun Mar 06, 2022 - 05:31:42 »
4WD, it is amazing that you would even make such a statement! I would expect more from you~but, that being said, it does not surprise me, for many believe just as you do.
But given your adherence to the Calvinistic teachings, I am not a bit surprised that you do not understand the New Covenant and the differences between it and the Old Covenant.
Quote from: RB
So, what are you going to do with so many scriptures which can be produced to prove this is a great error of many.
But there aren't many, in fact there aren't any.  There are the prophecies, such as Ezekiel 37 suggested by W_S, which point to the New Covenant
Quote from: RB
By faith Abel....by faith Noah...by faith Enoch....by faith Abraham.....through faith Sara also....by faith Isaac...by faith Jacob...by faith Joesph....by faith Moses....[

Without the new birth, it is impossible to have faith...
Again the disastrous error produced by the heresy of Total Depravity.
Quote from: RB
And Jesus rebuked him for NOT knowing this truth that was clearly revealed in the OT scriptures.
What was revealed in the OT Scriptures was the prophecy of things to come.  Paul states on many occasions "the mystery that was kept secret for long ages" (Rom 15:25); but a "mystery that was made known to me [Paul] by revelation" (Eph 3:3).

But I suspect that in John 3:10 Jesus may have been referring to the general rejection by the Pharisees (see for example Luke 7:30)
Quote from: RB
4WD, you need to rethink your position, for it is clearly against the scripture
No RB, it is you who need to rethink your position. And that would begin by rejecting the false teaching of Total Depravity. It is a doctrine which is simply incompatible with the God of the Bible.

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Re: Acts 13:48
« Reply #69 on: Sun Mar 06, 2022 - 06:08:15 »
Whether counted, reckoned, accounted, or imputed, the sense is the same~God considered, esteemed, regarded, and declared Abraham’s faith as the evidence of his righteousness
You continue to insist on inserting the word "evidence" into the scriptures when it simply is not there; and you change entirely what it actually says. It is a direct bastardization of God's word. It was Abraham's FAITH that was reckoned, not as evidence, but as righteousness.  Abraham's belief in God was the reason for God's declaring him righteous. That is what it says directly and specifically in Genesis 15:6. In Genesis 15:6, it has reference to God's promise to Abraham in Genesis 15:4-5; however, Paul then applies it generally to Abraham's faith in God:  And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness(Rom 4:22). He then makes the argument that just as Abraham's faith was counted to him for righteousness, so also our faith is counted to us for righteousness: But the words "it was counted to him" were not written for his sake alone, but for ours also. It will be counted to us who believe in him who raised from the dead Jesus our Lord (Rom 4:23-24).

RB, the whole chapter four is Paul's support of his declaration in Romans 3:28 Rom 3:28  For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law. And please note that the works he is speaking of are WORKS OF THE LAW.  Faith, believing in God, is not a work of the law. That is a claim by Paul in verse 28.
« Last Edit: Sun Mar 06, 2022 - 06:26:44 by 4WD »

 

     
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