Author Topic: Acts 13:48  (Read 3773 times)

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Offline RB

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Re: Acts 13:48
« Reply #70 on: Sun Mar 06, 2022 - 07:45:30 »
But given your adherence to the Calvinistic teachings, I am not a bit surprised that you do not understand the New Covenant and the differences between it and the Old Covenant
Briefly~ 4WD, I understand perfectly the difference between the two covenants.

The first was made with our father Adam as our head~the second made with Christ the head of the elect. Each covenant is based on the obedience of their head.

Christ SECURED eternal life for his posterity which Adam placed all of his posterity under the condemnation of death.

The first covenant God created our head in righteousness~ free of indwelling sin~and then LEFT him to his own power to obey ONE SIMPLE COMMANDMENT.

The second covenant God SECURED eternal life for his elect by two immutable acts of God~his oath and his promises of GRACE!
Quote from: THE HOLY GHOST
Hebrews 6:12-19~"That ye be not slothful, but followers of them who through faith and patience inherit the promises. For when God made promise to Abraham, because he could swear by no greater, he sware by himself, Saying, Surely blessing I will bless thee, and multiplying I will multiply thee. And so, after he had patiently endured, he obtained the promise. For men verily swear by the greater: and an oath for confirmation is to them an end of all strife. Wherein God, willing more abundantly to shew unto the heirs of promise the immutability of his counsel, confirmed it by an oath: That by two immutable things, in which it was impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us: Which hope we have as an anchor of the soul, both sure and stedfast, and which entereth into that within the veil;"
My hope is not in my works but in God's OATH and promises of GRACE secured by Jesus Christ, His Son. Psalms 89 a most blessed Psalm of David who understood this truth.
Quote from: 4WD on: Today at 05:31:42
What was revealed in the OT Scriptures was the prophecy of things to come.  Paul states on many occasions "the mystery that was kept secret for long ages" (Rom 15:25); but a "mystery that was made known to me [Paul] by revelation" (Eph 3:3).
4WD the NEW BIRTH was not the mystery Paul is speaking about, OT saints understood that truth~the mystery hidden in the scriptures since the world began was Jews and Gentiles being ONE BODY IN CHRIST which would make up the ONE spiritual temple where Jesus Christ shall dwell in the midst of world without end.
Quote from: Paul
Ephesians 3:1-6~"For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward. How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words, Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ) Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit; That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:"
Quote from: 4WD on: Today at 05:31:42
But I suspect that in John 3:10 Jesus may have been referring to the general rejection by the Pharisees (see for example Luke 7:30)
No sir, Jesus was rebuking Nicodemus for not understanding the NEW BIRTH which all teachers of the word of God should understand! The context of John 3:1-10 does not support your reasoning. The very fact of Nicodemus coming to Jesus confessing that he was of God shows he was of a different spirit than other Pharisees.

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Re: Acts 13:48
« Reply #71 on: Sun Mar 06, 2022 - 07:57:32 »
Briefly~ 4WD, I understand perfectly the difference between the two covenants.
Obviously you do not; as witnessed by your explanations.

Offline GB

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Re: Acts 13:48
« Reply #72 on: Sun Mar 06, 2022 - 09:02:27 »
Briefly~You are saying much what the RCC priest teach~they can forgive your sins by confessing to them! The priest under the Jews' religion did not have the power to forgive sins or provided means where the comers' sin would be forgiven, for many reasons.

I don't believe God is a Jew Red.

He made a Priesthood Covenant with Levi, "After the Order of Aaron", to minister before Him in the Priesthood Office. This Priesthood, called the "Levitical Priesthood" in Hebrews, was a Shadow of the Priesthood to Come, "After the Order of Melchizedek".

AS with our New High Priest, the Levitical Priesthood had duties, one of which was to provide for the forgiveness/atonement of sins. I have posted God's own Word's which clearly show this, but you deny HIM.

Lev. 4:1 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, (Not a Jew as you imply)

2 Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, If a soul shall sin through ignorance against any of the commandments of the LORD concerning things which ought not to be done, and shall do against any of them:

27 And if any one of the common people sin through ignorance, while he doeth somewhat against any of the commandments of the LORD concerning things which ought not to be done, and be guilty;

28 Or if his sin, which he hath sinned, come to his knowledge: then he shall bring his offering, a kid of the goats, a female without blemish, for his sin which he hath sinned.

29 And he shall lay his hand upon the head of the sin offering, and slay the sin offering in the place of the burnt offering.

30 And the priest shall take of the blood thereof with his finger, and put it upon the horns of the altar of burnt offering, and shall pour out all the blood thereof at the bottom of the altar.

31 And he shall take away all the fat thereof, as the fat is taken away from off the sacrifice of peace offerings; and the priest shall burn it upon the altar for a sweet savour unto the LORD; and the priest shall make an atonement for him, and it shall be forgiven him.

You preach to the world "The priest under the Jews' religion did not have the power to forgive sins or provided means where the comers' sin would be forgiven"

And yet, the very Word's of God in your own Bible expose this teaching of yours as another in a long line of falsehoods.

God made a Priesthood Covenant with Levi to minister before Him in the office of the Priesthood. This Priesthood "After the Order of Aaron" was a shadow of the prophesied Priesthood to come, "After the Order of Melchizedek", and was to be in place until the New High Priest " The SEED" should come.

The Levites had corrupted God's Covenant with Levi, and refused to walk in God's way, and became "Partial in the Law". (Mal. 2) As a result, they didn't know the Messiah when HE came to them. Zacharias, Simeon, Anna, all knew the Messiah when HE came, but they had Faith in God, while the Pharisees did not.

So the Pharisees were still requiring the sacrificial "Works of the Law" of forgiveness shown in the Word's of God I posted from your own Bible. They were still relying on the old and obsolete "works" of the "Order of Aaron" for forgiveness/justification. Paul is trying to teach the truth that the Pharisees, and you it seems, refused to acknowledge.

Rom. 3:26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

And again in acts 13:38 Be it known unto you therefore, men and brethren, that through this man is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins:

Not the Levitical Priesthood obsolete sacrificial "works of the Law" of a Temporary Priesthood "After the Order of Aaron".

28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

And what were those "DEEDS"? I posted the very Word's of the God who gave them.

I know you don't believe God here, and are happy in your own religion, as were the Pharisees who also "Transgressed God's Commandments by their own religions traditions."

But your unbelief, doesn't make God's Word a falsehood.

As the Jesus of the Bible said, "“And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.”

I replied to 4WD's post because he, in my view, allowed the scriptures themselves to interpret the Acts 13 message. It was refreshing to see others place their trust in the scriptures instead of one of the many religious franchises of this world that Jesus warned of over and over.

You decided to rail on me because of my encouragement towards 4WD, and so here we are.

But if you can't even acknowledge what the "works of the law" of atonement was in the Law of Moses, then it is a complete waste of time with you as Jesus Himself you will not be persuaded.

Of course you will want the last word, so you can have it.



« Last Edit: Sun Mar 06, 2022 - 09:13:39 by GB »

Offline RB

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Re: Acts 13:48
« Reply #73 on: Sun Mar 06, 2022 - 09:42:35 »
I don't believe God is a Jew Red.
GB, your logic is so perverted. I have never said God is a Jew! God is a Spirit~always has been and always WILL BE that inhabits eternity~eternal both ways! 

God's Son was born a Jew.
Quote
John 1:11~"He came unto his own, and his own received him not."
The Word in the beginning which was God, joined himself to the tabernacle of Jesus of Nazareth~and thus the Word was made FLESH in the person of God's Son~thus Jesus was God!
Quote from: THE HOLY GHOST
1st Timothy 3:16~"And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory."
You reject the biblical Sonship of Jesus Christ being God manifest in the flesh, which causes you to tell me that God is not a Jew. You reject the complex nature of Jesus Christ, being BOTH the Son of Man and the Son of God, making him ONE with His Father.

But, this is a subject that deserves another thread, that most likely is above your comprehension of understanding, by the fact you reject the Godhead of Jesus Christ, being the Everlasting Father of ALL THINGS.

The rest of your post has not one thing to do with this thread.

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Re: Acts 13:48
« Reply #73 on: Sun Mar 06, 2022 - 09:42:35 »

Offline Choir Loft

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Re: Acts 13:48
« Reply #74 on: Sun Mar 06, 2022 - 12:50:02 »
From the Mystery Babylon topic: 

Let’s take a look at Acts 13:48.  It is often used to explain the Calvinist view of things.  The key issue here is the use of the word ordained or appointed.



Here is the NKJV rendering,

[b/]Now when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and glorified the word of the Lord. And as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.[/b]

The basic meaning of this word is to order, to arrange, to arrange in an orderly manner, i.e. assign or dispose (to a certain position or lot). Now let’s talk about the grammatical form of the word. The word appointed is from the Greek word tasso and is in a form that can be either middle or passive. In other words, the middle and passive voices share the same form in this tense (perfect participle). What’s the difference? The middle voice would suggest that these Gentiles appointed themselves to eternal life. The passive voice would suggest that someone else ordained them to eternal life.

The form of the word can be either middle or passive. Whether it is taken as a middle or as a passive is a matter of interpretation and that is what must be determined from the context.

Calvinists of course take it as a passive and conclude that God ordained them to eternal life in eternity past. However, there are actually good reasons to take this as a middle voice.

This exact form is used in Acts 20:13, (the only difference being the word has the prefix dia.) It is almost certainly a middle voice and should be translated, Then we went ahead to the ship and sailed to Assos, there intending to take Paul on board; for so he had arranged for himself, intending to go on foot This makes perfect sense with the grammar and context.

This reference shows that there is no reason, other than theological bias, to categorically dismiss even the possibility of the middle voice in Acts 13:48. It is at least as likely as the passive. Therefore, we should now look at the context to see which fits best, the middle or the passive. Here is Acts 13:48 with the immediate context.

38 Let it be known to you therefore, brothers, that through this man forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you,
39  and by him everyone who believes is freed from everything from which you could not be freed by the law of Moses.
40  Beware, therefore, lest what is said in the Prophets should come about:
41  "'Look, you scoffers, be astounded and perish; for I am doing a work in your days, a work that you will not believe, even if one tells it to you.'" .
42 As they went out, the people begged that these things might be told them the next Sabbath. .
43 Now when the congregation had broken up, many of the Jews and devout proselytes followed Paul and Barnabas, who, speaking to them, persuaded them to continue in the grace of God.
44 On the next Sabbath almost the whole city came together to hear the word of God.
45 But when the Jews saw the multitudes, they were filled with envy; and contradicting and blaspheming, they opposed the things spoken by Paul.
46 Then Paul and Barnabas grew bold and said, It was necessary that the word of God should be spoken to you first; but since you reject it, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, behold, we turn to the Gentiles.
47 For so the Lord has commanded us:
I have set you as a light to the Gentiles,
That you should be for salvation to the ends of the earth.
48 Now when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and glorified the word of the Lord. And as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.


Notice the contrast in this story between the Jews and the Gentiles in their response to the preaching of the Gospel (especially in verses 42-48). In verse 42, the Gentiles begged Paul to preach this to them again on the next Sabbath, one week later. In verse 43, many of the Jews and Gentile proselytes followed Paul and he exhorted and persuaded them to continue in the grace of God. This is extremely important.

We know that that week between the two Sabbaths must have been filled with much discussion because on the next Sabbath, almost the whole city came to hear Paul preach (verse 44). Paul had been exhorting all who would listen to continue in the grace of God. But when the Jews saw the multitudes coming to hear Paul, they were filled with envy, and they opposed the Gospel with blasphemy.

Now notice what Paul says to these Jews in verse 46: since you reject it and you judge yourselves unworthy of eternal life. He does not say that God judged them unworthy or ordained them to reprobation. Then in verse 47, in stark contrast we have the response of the Gentiles. Let me render it using the middle voice and note how it is in parallel with what Paul said to the Jews.

Now when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and glorified the word of the Lord. And as many as had disposed themselves to eternal life believed.

With this understanding, disposed themselves to eternal life is in parallel with and in contrast to, judged yourselves unworthy of eternal life. Both have the sense of the middle voice.

When did they dispose themselves to eternal life and what exactly does that mean? Obviously not in eternity past. The answer to when is during the previous week as they listened to Pauls exhortations, pondered the message, and discussed the Gospel as it had been preached by Paul, and as they anticipated his next message. Paul had exhorted them to continue in the grace of God. As they considered the message and counted the cost, they inclined or disposed themselves to eternal life. So when Paul preached again on the next Sabbath, they were ready to believe and embrace the message. In my opinion, that is the when and the what of this verse. And I think it makes perfect sense both grammatically and contextually.

Good post.  Nice try.   You forgot one or two important things, however.

First is that a Calvinist will ABSOLUTELY REFUSE to admit he's wrong. 

It doesn't matter how many scripture quotations you throw at him he will cling to his doctrines of demons without equivocation.  If you do manage to pin him down, he'll change the meaning of his words dodge the issue and approach the argument from a different direction.

Second is the weak point in Calvinist ideology - his TULIP. (*)

Pluck the first leaf of the tulip and you destroy all the rest of this satanic plant.

Calvinism claims man is Totally depraved and completely incapable of free will to understand or accept the gospel message of salvation.  (Everybody except Calvinists, that is.)

If humankind is incapable of freely understanding and accepting God's generous offer of peace and salvation, why did Jesus speak of it so often?
If humankind is incapable of free will, then why did God tell us to CHOOSE so many times?
If humankind is inherently evil, then why did God give His LAW to us?

IT IS NOT A SIN TO BE BORN HUMAN.

According to the LAW of Moses (also called the LAW of Grace because it's author is God) NO MAN is guilty of SIN unless he breaks the LAW. 

This principle is of primary consideration in every court of law on the planet.  For instance, one is not guilty of bank robbery until and unless one actually does the deed.  One is not guilty of murder unless one kills.  One is not guilty of theft unless one steals.  The list goes on.  There are ten items on the list, btw.

According to strict interpretation of Calvinist ideology, a new born baby who dies goes straight to hell because it's incapable of choosing good.  According to the LAW of Moses, the child isn't guilty of SIN because it hasn't broken the LAW.  Therefore the child is guiltless and innocent before God and the heavenly court.  It is justified innocent and righteous.  What will a Calvinist tell a grieving mother who's lost her child?  Will this deluded person tell the poor mom that her baby is in hell?   If I were her husband and present at such a meeting the Calvinist would probably lose a few teeth.  The entire ideology is inhuman inconsiderate and just plain wrong.

All of us are born with the POTENTIAL to SIN, including Jesus Christ.  The difference is that Jesus didn't SIN, didn't violate the LAW and SIN.  The potential to SIN isn't the same thing as doing it.

I once attended a Bible study at Panera Bread on Saturday mornings.  The subject of predestination came up often as you can imagine.  At one point I spoke to the LAW and stated the Bible's truth that one isn't guilty of SIN unless one breaks the LAW.  At that point the Calvinist moderator began screaming and yelling at me.  Everybody else in the restaurant turned around and looked at us.   All of us were very embarrassed at the outburst, except the Calvinist moderator of course.  That was my last day attending the meeting.  Suffice it to say I learned all I needed to know about Calvinists and their autocratic usurpation of the gospel. 

IT IS NOT A SIN TO BE BORN HUMAN.

Jesus advises us to choose God's way.  Did He lie to us?


that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

(*)
TULIP - an acronym to explain Calvinist ideology.  The first letter T stands for total depravity of man.
« Last Edit: Sun Mar 06, 2022 - 12:55:53 by Choir Loft »

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Re: Acts 13:48
« Reply #74 on: Sun Mar 06, 2022 - 12:50:02 »

Online 4WD

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Re: Acts 13:48
« Reply #75 on: Sun Mar 06, 2022 - 14:05:36 »
Good post.  Nice try.   You forgot one or two important things, however.
I don't necessarily disagree with you, but I don't know why you quoted me in your post, which really had little, if anything, to do with what I said.

Offline RB

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Re: Acts 13:48
« Reply #76 on: Sun Mar 06, 2022 - 15:34:56 »
First is that a Calvinist will ABSOLUTELY REFUSE to admit he's wrong.
I'm not a Calvinist~but your strong assessment and biased opinion of Calvinism is stated based on your few dealings with them, pretty sure of that. They are some of the most humble people I have ever known and read behind~but like all of Adam's fallen children, they have their faults, most likely less than yours and your messianic beliefs that are based upon Judaism instead of the pure religion of Jesus Christ, the only religion God approves of. 

We DO NOT defend any system that carries man's name~and NEITHER would John Calvin want any man to do this~I've read much behind this man of God and without question a very humble and God-fearing man. He had his error as we all do, but considering what they came out of, he was a mighty warrior of God. His work of the Christian religion written at a very tender age of 26 still stands as one of the greatest works outside of the apostles even to our day. He would shame all of us if he were alive in our generation~be thankful you have someone like me instead of the Reformers, none of us is a match against them.

That being said, I would love the opportunity to debate you, on your doctrine of soteriology. 
Quote from:  Choir Loft on: Today at 12:50:02
It doesn't matter how many scripture quotations you throw at him he will cling to his doctrines of demons without equivocation.  If you do manage to pin him down,
If you think the doctrine of unconditional election is a doctrine of demons, then it is your duty to prove it~pin me down if you think you can~I have serious doubts you can~not vain boasting but confidence that I have the truth and can defend my understanding.

All you did in your post was babble into the air, with NO SCRIPTURES supporting your vain babbling.
Quote from:  Choir Loft on: Today at 12:50:02
According to the LAW of Moses (also called the LAW of Grace because it's author is God) NO MAN is guilty of SIN unless he breaks the LAW.
Give me scriptures proving those two points in this sentence. I'm waiting.

Offline RB

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Re: Acts 13:48
« Reply #77 on: Mon Mar 07, 2022 - 05:04:29 »
Pluck the first leaf of the tulip and you destroy all the rest of this satanic plant.
Calvinism acronym represented by the "tulip" is a fair analogy since Holland is known for its beautiful tulips and that country is known also for its Calvinistic theology. 
Quote
The Synod of Dordt (1618-1619) was held by the government of Holland to legally settle the issue of Calvinism versus Arminianism. It totally rejected the five main points of the Arminians from their remonstrance of 1610 and answered with five points of its own~and thus the acronym was created. The acrostic TULIP – Total depravity, Unconditional election, Limited atonement, Irresistible grace, and Perseverance of the saints. The strict Calvinist side won (Prince Maurice of Orange and the other provinces) and Johan van Oldebarnevelt, the official head of state of the County of Holland, was executed. Calvinism became the de facto state religion. Only Calvinists (and, in some cases, Jews) were allowed to hold political office.
Without question that's where it originated. That being said, We do not hold to the five points of Calvinism and CERTAINLY reject all five points of Arminianism.

Calvinism broadly used is a comprehensive theological system, but we shall limit ourselves to consider salvation unto eternal life. Since John Calvin, Martin Luther, and other reformers did not return all the way to apostolic Christianity, we shall find Romanism. in the teachings of these godly men.

They did not expunge the sacramentalism, the ritualism, the form, the ministerial elite, the worldly education, the state church, etc. Calvin and most Calvinists are in error on the subjects (infants), mode (sprinkling), and purpose (covenant guarantee) of baptism. They are in error on the purpose (convey literal or spiritual Jesus) and interpretation (not a metaphor) of the Lord’s Supper. They are in error on the relationship of the first two Persons in the Trinity, as they teach Jesus Christ is a begotten God. They are in error on the identity of the church and the form of local church government, tracing themselves back to Rome. They are in error on the relationship of the church to civil authority and government.

It is often called the Reformed faith, but Jesus Christ and His apostles reformed His church (Luke 16:16; John 4:21-24; Hebrews 9:10). Rome cannot be reformed, for it is "A" great whore, (among many) the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit alone with the world (Revelation 17:1-6; 18:2).

Yet, we are thankful for ancient and modern Calvinists who assisted in our conversion from Arminianism to the truth of the gospel. Since we deny freewill and teach God is sovereign in salvation by election and predestination, we are often accused of being Calvinists. For those not very knowledgeable or intending only the scheme of salvation, we may at certain times allow that we are Calvinists~in order to keep the conversation short and without boring people which few truly do not want to hear.

However, we are hyper-Calvinists regarding salvation, for we teach regeneration before faith, a different purpose for faith and the gospel, and the definite possibility of God’s elect backsliding into sin and having their faith overthrown (but not losing eternal life).

                                                                                                                             The Truth


The truth distinguishes between unconditional and conditional aspects of God’s salvation, dividing between God’s work and our duty. Arminianism in its five points is totally rejected as unscriptural and blasphemous against the intentions and accomplishments of Christ. Man is neither free nor able to cooperate with God for salvation (John 3:3; 8:43,47; 10:26; Romans 8:7-8 Ist Corinthians 2:14; Ephesians 2:1-3).

God’s foreknowledge in election did not find any conditions met; His omniscient knew that if He did not have an election of grace, then NONE would have been saved on their own........impossible~God's election of grace was of persons, not actions (Psalm 14:1-3; 53:1-3; Romans 8:29).

Jesus Christ’s death accomplished salvation for His elect; it did not merely make it possible (Matthew 1:21; Romans 5:10; Hebrews 9:15).

The Holy Spirit’s work in applying salvation through regeneration is effectual and sure (John 3:8; Ephesians 1:19; Titus 3:5; Ist Peter 1:2). Not one of them left to chance.

The elect cannot be lost nor separated from the purpose of God in salvation (John 6:38-39; Romans 8:28-39; 2nd Timothy 2:16-19).

Calvinism may be accepted in its first three points as scriptural and according to the truth of the gospel as preached by apostle Paul. Man’s nature is totally corrupt since Eden, rendering him without desire or ability to know or please God in any way for salvation. God’s election of some men to eternal life is based purely on the good pleasure of His will in spite of their foreseen evil rebellion. Jesus Christ died only for the elect, and He will not lose a single one of those that the Father gave Him to fully and finally redeem. John 17.

However, Calvinism errs with its point of Irresistible Grace, for they apply it to the gospel and conversion, which is farther than truth. They apply irresistible grace, or what they name the “effectual call,” to the preaching of the gospel in the case of all the elect. They believe that all the elect will hear and believe the gospel sometime during their lives and cannot be saved without these things. This is sacramental salvation, for unless the “priest” carries the grace of God’s gospel to the elect, they cannot be saved without it. They must therefore invent all sorts of alternative theories to cover the salvation of infants, idiots, heathen, the deaf and blind, etc.

Of course, they rarely define what they mean by “saving faith,” or they would make it to loose, or limit the elect to just a very few. The typical Calvinist, even John Calvin and Jonathan Edwards, seldom differentiate clearly between regeneration and conversion. God’s grace is definitely irresistible when it comes to regeneration, but conversion by the gospel depends on preacher and hearer. The first of the acts is God’s work in salvation, and the second is the information and news concerning it for the comfort of the elect. Ministers must make war with their hearers, for conversion is and always has been a struggle against the resistance of the saints.

However, Calvinism errs with its point of Final Perseverance, for they end up with a fatalist doctrine of men incapable of backsliding. Persevering is man’s action. If God guarantees man’s perseverance, then he will continue in faith and good works without fail. This fatalistic doctrine, if logically followed, would render the New Testament epistles and the work of the ministry unnecessary.

If by final perseverance the Calvinist means God will not lose any of His elect, then why not call it preservation like the Bible? God will preserve His saints so that not one will be lost and all make it safely to heaven, but He has not guaranteed their faithfulness.
Quote from: Choir Loft on: Yesterday at 12:50:02
Calvinism claims man is Totally depraved and completely incapable of free will to understand or accept the gospel message of salvation.  (Everybody except Calvinists, that is.)

If humankind is incapable of freely understanding and accepting God's generous offer of peace and salvation, why did Jesus speak of it so often? If humankind is incapable of free will, then why did God tell us to CHOOSE so many times? If humankind is inherently evil, then why did God give His LAW to us?
I'm coming back to finish answering this post.
« Last Edit: Mon Mar 07, 2022 - 12:47:30 by RB »

Online 4WD

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Re: Acts 13:48
« Reply #78 on: Mon Mar 07, 2022 - 07:09:09 »
If you think the doctrine of unconditional election is a doctrine of demons, then it is your duty to prove it~pin me down if you think you can~
I understand this was a response to Choir Loft, but given that Acts 13:48 is a premier passage of scripture that is used to support unconditional election, I think I have presented a very good argument to show that the typical translation/interpretation is likely wrong.  And under the circumstances, it certainly cannot be used to prove unconditional election.

Apart from that, I think the Calvinist teaching on election is simply wrong. Even without appealing to scriptures dealing directly with the concept itself, it is a terrible affront to God Himself. In the end, unconditional election removes any basis or reason for God's even creating this world at all.  If He just wanted to create the group of individuals to receive eternal life, He could have done that without creating this world and in the process creating the much larger group of individuals destined to eternal condemnation.

That is, the doctrine of unconditional election is not so much the creation of a relatively few individuals given eternal life; rather, given the relative numbers involved, it is more about the creation of the many individuals sentenced to eternal condemnation. And that flies in the face of a gracious God. They would argue that those many individuals were simply left to reap the reward of their sins.  But that is really not the case, when it is coupled with the concept of Total Depravity. And without the concept of Total Depravity, unconditional election is not even a rational concept.

All of that comes, I believe, from the definition given to "election" by those holding to unconditional election. It, like so many other words, has been jargonized by Calvinists to mean something not always intended by the author.
« Last Edit: Mon Mar 07, 2022 - 07:11:57 by 4WD »

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Re: Acts 13:48
« Reply #78 on: Mon Mar 07, 2022 - 07:09:09 »

Offline GB

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Re: Acts 13:48
« Reply #79 on: Mon Mar 07, 2022 - 08:09:42 »
I understand this was a response to Choir Loft, but given that Acts 13:48 is a premier passage of scripture that is used to support unconditional election, I think I have presented a very good argument to show that the typical translation/interpretation is likely wrong.  And under the circumstances, it certainly cannot be used to prove unconditional election.

Apart from that, I think the Calvinist teaching on election is simply wrong. Even without appealing to scriptures dealing directly with the concept itself, it is a terrible affront to God Himself. In the end, unconditional election removes any basis or reason for God's even creating this world at all.  If He just wanted to create the group of individuals to receive eternal life, He could have done that without creating this world and in the process creating the much larger group of individuals destined to eternal condemnation.

That is, the doctrine of unconditional election is not so much the creation of a relatively few individuals given eternal life; rather, given the relative numbers involved, it is more about the creation of the many individuals sentenced to eternal condemnation. And that flies in the face of a gracious God. They would argue that those many individuals were simply left to reap the reward of their sins.  But that is really not the case, when it is coupled with the concept of Total Depravity. And without the concept of Total Depravity, unconditional election is not even a rational concept.

All of that comes, I believe, from the definition given to "election" by those holding to unconditional election. It, like so many other words, has been jargonized by Calvinists to mean something not always intended by the author.

Beautiful!!!

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Re: Acts 13:48
« Reply #80 on: Mon Mar 07, 2022 - 12:28:27 »
Yes, but that is a prophecy of things to come.  It is in fact a prophecy of the coming of the kingdom of God which, I believe, most theologians understand was established by the death of Jesus Christ on the cross and was inaugurated at Pentecost.   It is a prophecy of the establishment of the New Covenant. See also Chapter 36:25-27.
It's a prophecy of the resurrection of the nation of Israel, which had ceased to exist about 150 years before Ezekiel lived. 

Anyhow, this was established through the work of Jesus (and John, and the apostles) during His life.  They baptized converts into Israel, thus re-establishing the nation.

Jarrod

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Re: Acts 13:48
« Reply #81 on: Tue Mar 08, 2022 - 04:33:55 »
Calvinism claims man is Totally depraved and completely incapable of free will to understand or accept the gospel message of salvation.  (Everybody except Calvinists, that is.)
It truly does not matter, what Calvinism or Arminianism teaches~or what each side has to say about the other~a wise and godly person would look to the scriptures and there stand upon the testimony of God Himself, and let others mock all they want to, for that's what they are best at anyway.

Sir, whether one is a Calvinist, or hyper as defined by man~they all understand they were born in sin, there are no exceptions to this TRUTH. Also, your mocking is just a way of you hollering into the air, since you have no biblical support from the scriptures that you can bring forth.
Quote from: Choir Loft Reply #74 on: Sun Mar 06, 2022 - 12:50:02
If humankind is incapable of freely understanding and accepting God's generous offer of peace and salvation, why did Jesus speak of it so often?
It is not a matter "IF" man is incapable of freely understanding and accepting the scriptures~man is in bondage to the devil and sin, and it spiritual dead to spiritual TRUTH. Jesus said:
Quote from: JESUS CHRIST
John 8:32-24~"And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free. They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free? Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin."
These blinded Jews said they were never in bondage! Amazingly they would make such a statement is it not? They were in literal bondage in Egypt and were also by other nations throughout their history, not to mention to the devil himself, which they would reject as well just as you have in your post.
Quote from: Choir Loft Reply #74 on: Sun Mar 06, 2022 - 12:50:02
If humankind is incapable of free will, then why did God tell us to CHOOSE so many times?
Provide the scriptures you are talking about~when I read where God/Jesus said "Come unto me" he is always speaking to his people, never is that used directly to those who reject him.
Quote from: Choir Loft Reply #74 on: Sun Mar 06, 2022 - 12:50:02
If humankind is inherently evil, then why did God give His LAW to us?
Have you never read so much as this:
Quote from: Paul
Galatians 3:19-24~"Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator. Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one. Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law. But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe. But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
Briefly~God's law was added to be a schoolmaster for God's children to teach them their COMPLETE need of Jesus Christ's life of obedience to be the only means of them trusting in for the free gift of eternal life!
Quote from: Choir Loft Reply #74 on: Sun Mar 06, 2022 - 12:50:02
IT IS NOT A SIN TO BE BORN HUMAN.

According to the LAW of Moses (also called the LAW of Grace because it's author is God) NO MAN is guilty of SIN unless he breaks the LAW.

This principle is of primary consideration in every court of law on the planet.  For instance, one is not guilty of bank robbery until and unless one actually does the deed.  One is not guilty of murder unless one kills.  One is not guilty of theft unless one steals.  The list goes on.  There are ten items on the list, btw.

According to strict interpretation of Calvinist ideology, a new born baby who dies goes straight to hell because it's incapable of choosing good.  According to the LAW of Moses, the child isn't guilty of SIN because it hasn't broken the LAW.
Well, by the very fact man dies proves he HAS broken God's law. Men like you reject the federal headship of Adam for all of his posterity~and when you do that, it only proves you are void of understanding the Ferdal headship of Christ for his people, thereby, you cannot truly understand the gospel of Jesus Christ, IMPOSSIBLE. In the eternal plan of God, he made TWO MEN the Federal head of their seed~Adam for ALL flesh, Jesus Christ, for the elect of God. Romans 5:12-21
Quote
Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
How was Adam a figure of Christ? We can come to Romans and answer that question~death has reigned over ALL since the fall, WHY has it reigned? Even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression~which could only be referring to infants.
Quote from: Choir Loft Reply #74 on: Sun Mar 06, 2022 - 12:50:02
What will a Calvinist tell a grieving mother who's lost her child?  Will this deluded person tell the poor mom that her baby is in hell? 
We could not tell her anything~since no man knows who are the elect. Besides, there is NO SUCH PLACE as a present burning hell~and there is NO such thing as the age of accountability since we ALL were accountable IN the first Adam.
Quote from: Choir Loft Reply #74 on: Sun Mar 06, 2022 - 12:50:02
All of us are born with the POTENTIAL to SIN, including Jesus Christ.  The difference is that Jesus didn't SIN, didn't violate the LAW and SIN.  The potential to SIN isn't the same thing as doing it.
That's YOUR gospel, not the truth of the word of God.
Quote
Psalms 58:3~ "The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies."
Never met the first child that we did not have to teach them to speak TRUTH, they are so selfish and self-centered from the womb. I know, I have 18 grandchildren and ALL of them are the same by nature~besides, the scriptures declare this regardless of what I think of them. Salvation for each one of them will not be because of them.....
Quote
Romans 9:16~"So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy."
I would have NEVER chosen God if he had not chosen me~and neither would any other person.

Offline Bemark

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Re: Acts 13:48
« Reply #82 on: Tue Mar 08, 2022 - 04:58:57 »
I would have NEVER chosen God if he had not chosen me~and neither would any other person.

so true.


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Re: Acts 13:48
« Reply #83 on: Tue Mar 08, 2022 - 05:21:20 »
We can thank out parents

and our grandparents and who ever prayed over there ones to come. there children's children .
Genesis 22:17
New King James Version
17 blessing I will bless you, and multiplying I will multiply your descendants as the stars of the heaven and as the sand which is on the seashore; and your descendants shall possess the gate of their enemies.


We owe it...to a request that was issued to God ....put upon our lives in the spirit realm, before we was even born ...... that out family line prayed to God for us who wasn't even born .......  a contract  to God to remember us. They entered into a legal binding contract based upon he doesn't lie

he came upon us in our generation  .....we now had to choose.

« Last Edit: Tue Mar 08, 2022 - 05:26:57 by Bemark »

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Re: Acts 13:48
« Reply #84 on: Tue Mar 08, 2022 - 06:00:32 »
Quote
Romans 4:12~"And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised."

"And the father of circumcision"~Abraham was the father of circumcision by virtue of the fact he was the first circumcised. Circumcision originated with Abraham: God gave it to him directly and first (Genesis 17:10-14). Thus being the father of circumcision, he is obviously the father of all circumcised Jews. However, there is another element that is far more important, and that is the issue of faith. He is the father of circumcised believers, or Jews, since circumcision was a sign of faith. He is the father of uncircumcised believers, or Gentiles, for he believed before circumcision.

"To them who are not of the circumcision only"~ He is obviously the father of circumcision to circumcised Jews keeping his example of it.  He is the father of circumcision in a fuller sense to circumcised Jews who also had his faith.  This verse is for Abraham to be the father of believing Jews, after believing Gentiles in 4:11. Those under consideration in this text are circumcised Jews who also had their father’s faith. 

"But who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham"~  He is the father of circumcision to the uncircumcised, since circumcision was a sign of faith; but that does not appear to be the apostle’s argument here by virtue of the adverb also. The also here contrasts circumcised Jews with faith from circumcised Jews without faith.  He is the father of circumcision to circumcised believers ~they have both faith and its sign.  The Jews walked in the steps of their father Abraham by being circumcised on the eighth day, but they also walked in the steps of their father Abraham by having the faith that he also had. There is more to faith than an emotional decision or sinner’s prayer made at a tent revival.  The just shall live by faith is exactly the case (1:17) … true faith results in a changed life.

"Which he had being yet uncircumcised"~  Again, Paul stated the obvious that Abraham had righteous faith before being circumcised.  The most important matter in Abraham’s justification was his faith, not his circumcision

Offline RB

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Re: Acts 13:48
« Reply #85 on: Tue Mar 08, 2022 - 06:25:04 »
Quote
Romans 4:13~"For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith."

"For the promise"~The coordinating conjunction "for" ties this argument with the one before, but there has been a shift from Paul’s defense of justification against circumcision to a defense against the Law of Moses; the connection by for further explains how Abraham is the father of all believers.  God promised Abraham many things, plural promises, and they are seen in Christ (Galatians 3:16) It is an error of Bible interpretation to emphasize the natural, physical,   national,   literal aspects of God’s promises to Abraham over spiritual aspects in Jesus Christ and heaven.  He promised him a land for an everlasting possession, which was fulfilled literally to Israel (Nehemiah 9:7-8), but more importantly to all believers spiritually. (Hebrews 11:8-10,13-16) He promised him an innumerable progeny, also fulfilled in Christ (Revelation 5:9-10; 7:9-10) He promised him the destruction of all his enemies, also fulfilled spiritually in Christ (Mathew 16:18; Luke 11:21-22; Ist Corinthians 15:25-26; Colossains 2:14-15). He promised him to be the source of blessings on all nations of the earth, also fulfilled spiritually in Christ (Romans 1:5; 16:26; Galatians 3:8; Revelation 5:9-10) What promise is under consideration here by Paul?

"That he should be the heir of the world"~There is no promise to Abraham recorded in Genesis by these words, so we study carefully. The next phrase and verses indicate the promise considered is to Abraham and his seed, used here collectively for Jews and Gentiles of faith, more like Galatians 3:29 than Galatians 3:16, therefore whatever promise is identified must be an inheritance to Abraham and all believers.  The land is clearly the item most often identified as an inheritance, making Abraham and his seed actual heirs, which provides a very nice fit (Hebrews 11:8-10; Acts 7:3-5)  God first promised Abraham the land before he was declared righteous by faith (Genesis 12:6-7)  He confirmed the promise of the land in specific terms at the time of his faith (Genesis 15:6-21). Why is it called the world? Because Israel was a figure the New heaven and New earth. (Hebrews 11:13-16)  Why is it called the world? Because we understand new heavens and new earth (2nd Peter 3:13) Why is it called the world? Because all things are Abraham’s and his seed’s (Ist Corinthians 3:21-23) Why is it called the world? Because all things include the world to come as the first world will pass away. (Revelation 21:7; Psalms 37:9,11,22)

"was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law"~ The promise of inheriting the world, as defined above, was not conditioned on Moses’ Law.  Here we can see Paul moving from arguing against circumcision to arguing against the Law. Paul went further in Galatians 3:17 and identifies 430 years between promise and the Law. God made and confirmed the promise of the land by virtue of Abraham’s faith (Genesis 15:6-21).

"But through the righteousness of faith"~God’s promises to Abraham were made and confirmed in association with Abraham’s faith.  They were not made or confirmed through Moses’ Law, which came 430 years later. More on this later.

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Re: Acts 13:48
« Reply #86 on: Tue Mar 08, 2022 - 06:43:32 »
It truly does not matter, what Calvinism or Arminianism teaches~or what each side has to say about the other~a wise and godly person would look to the scriptures and there stand upon the testimony of God Himself, and let others mock all they want to, for that's what they are best at anyway.
Within the whole of Christendom, there is no greater mocking of the scriptures than that of Calvinism.
Quote from: RB
Sir, whether one is a Calvinist, or hyper as defined by man~they all understand they were born in sin, there are no exceptions to this TRUTH.
I agree.  They, Calvinists, understand that.  However, their understanding is wrong.
Quote from: RB
Also, your mocking is just a way of you hollering into the air, since you have no biblical support from the scriptures that you can bring forth.
The problem here is that you quote scripture and then proceed to give your terrible interpretation of it. 
Quote from: RB
It is not a matter "IF" man is incapable of freely understanding and accepting the scriptures~man is in bondage to the devil and sin, and it spiritual dead to spiritual TRUTH. Jesus said:
Quote from: JESUS CHRIST
John 8:32-24~"And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free. They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free? Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin."
You do this all the time. You quote a verse or two or three and then add to it with your own eisegesis. There is not one word in that passage you posted that says anything about anyone being dead to spiritual truth.
Quote from: RB
These blinded Jews said they were never in bondage! Amazingly they would make such a statement is it not? They were in literal bondage in Egypt and were also by other nations throughout their history, not to mention to the devil himself, which they would reject as well just as you have in your post. 
You did it again here.  These Jews were not in literal bondage in Egypt. Neither were they in bondage to other nations.  Their ancestors were, but they were not.  They were at the time under the rule of Rome, but even with that they were not in literal bondage to Rome.
Quote from: RB
Provide the scriptures you are talking about~when I read where God/Jesus said "Come unto me" he is always speaking to his people, never is that used directly to those who reject him.
And still again.  I think it is true that when you read where God/Jesus said "Come unto me" he is always speaking to his people, you actually thinknever is that used directly to those who reject him. But that is not true.  And Judas Iscariot is the perfect example of that.
You quoted Galatians 3:19-24 and then said
Quote from: RB
Briefly~God's law was added to be a schoolmaster for God's children to teach them their COMPLETE need of Jesus Christ's life of obedience to be the only means of them trusting in for the free gift of eternal life!
RB, the Law was given to Israel--to every last Israelite.  It was not given to just some few previously "chosen" Israelites.  The fact that not all the Jews chose to heed the schoolmaster is a whole different subject. But the fact is that the Law was given to all.
Quote
Well, by the very fact man dies proves he HAS broken God's law.
Nah.  It only proves that Adam was ejected from the Garden which contained the tree of Life and no man any longer had access to the fruit of that tree to keep him from dying.  Death is the integral feature of God's physical creation. So again, it is your own thoughts and not scripture which is the basis for your Calvinistic thinking.
Quote from: RB
Men like you reject the federal headship of Adam for all of his posterity~and when you do that, it only proves you are void of understanding the Ferdal headship of Christ for his people, thereby, you cannot truly understand the gospel of Jesus Christ, IMPOSSIBLE.
You and your federal headships. Pure gobbledegook.
Quote
IMPOSSIBLE. In the eternal plan of God, he made TWO MEN the Federal head of their seed~Adam for ALL flesh, Jesus Christ, for the elect of God. Romans 5:12-21
And yet one more time you insert your own faulty, really bad, interpretation into the word. There is absolutely no distinction between those effected by Adam's disobedience and those effected by Jesus' obedience.

Rom 5:18  Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
Rom 5:19  For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.


Why do you insist on changing the word of God?  There is only one reason for your doing that.  Because the word of God does not agree with the word of RB.

Offline Bemark

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Re: Acts 13:48
« Reply #87 on: Tue Mar 08, 2022 - 07:19:39 »
4WD what happens to to the man who rejects the gift of God

many shall be made righteous.

means some will accept this free gift and many will not. for those who do not accept this pass will go to hell


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Re: Acts 13:48
« Reply #88 on: Tue Mar 08, 2022 - 07:52:54 »
4WD what happens to to the man who rejects the gift of God

many shall be made righteous.

means some will accept this free gift and many will not. for those who do not accept this pass will go to hell
The passage is not about who will or will not accept the free gift.  It is about the distinction between the effect of Adam's disobedience and the effect of Jesus' obedience. While the effect of Adam's disobedience was, as nearly all would agree, original sin.  What the effect of Jesus' obedience is, as so many don't understand, is to nullify the effect of Adam's disobedience. In other words were it not for Jesus' obedience all would be born sinners; but because of Jesus' obedience, all are born righteous.  What happens after that in the lives of all men is that they sin and become sinners. Rom 5:12  Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned--

Death entered the world through the one man, Adam, but it did not spread to all men because of Adam; rather it spread to all men because all men sinned.  Whether one receives eternal life or eternal condemnation depends, not on Adam, but on the one himself. 

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Re: Acts 13:48
« Reply #89 on: Tue Mar 08, 2022 - 12:33:20 »
Within the whole of Christendom, there is no greater mocking of the scriptures than that of Calvinism.
This is not about Calvinism and Arminianism~just address scriptures place before you and give the biblical sense you think it means~that should not be too difficult, but, you should do have trouble doing this.

4WD, it would have been nice and proper for you to allow Choir Loft to answer his own post. I still want him to do so, before I answer you back, and answer you I will.

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Re: Acts 13:48
« Reply #90 on: Tue Mar 08, 2022 - 13:11:46 »
Quote
Romans 4:14~"For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promisemade of none effect:"

"For if they which are of the law be heirs"~Paul left circumcision to argue against Moses’ Law having a role in promises to Abraham.  He will propose our eternal inheritance by the Law and prove it not so by the consequences. Who are those of the Law? The Jews, who were given Moses’ Law on Sinai by God Himself~and any system that requires work from the sinner in order for the sinner to inherit eternal life~ANY WORK whereby the sinner has an ACTIVE part in, be whatsoever that work be if required before a sinner can be saved from sin and condemantion.

"Faith is made void"~Faith and the works of the Law are mutually exclusive~ you cannot have them both; if you include works of the Law, then by definition you exclude any role for faith, like Abraham’s.  If Moses’ Law from Sinai is the condition, instrument, or means of obtaining justification or God’s promise of eternal inheritance, then the faith ascribed to Abraham is nothing. What did God’s declaration of Abraham’s faith mean (Genesis 15:6), if the Law is what matters?

"And the promise made of none effect"~God’s promise to Abraham is worthless if the Law is the means, based on its impossibility. As the next verse explains, the Law cannot bring good, since no man can keep its terms. Further, the Law was never to be a condition for salvation, but of condemnation (3:19-20). What was the Law’s purpose? To cause sin to abound as exceeding sinful (Romans 5:20; 7:7-13) What was the Law’s purpose? To prove sinfulness and drive men to Christ as mention in a few words above~(Galatians  3:19-24) What is the possibility of keeping the Law? It is impossible. Its terms are onerous (Galatians 3:10)
Quote
Romans 4:15~Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression

"Because the law worketh wrath"~The Law brings God’s wrath, for every man breaks it, bringing its dreaded curse (Galatians 3:10) Paul had already introduced the wrath of God (1:18), which he then brought to a conclusion from the Law itself, for no man, including the Jews, could keep its terms (3:19-20). During his argument of condemnation, he denied the Jews any salvation by the Law (2:1-24)

"For where no law is, there is no transgression"~Moses’ Law is not a good thing, when justification and obtaining promises are the goals. The effect of laws, whether human or divine, is to identify transgressions, thus causing guilt.
Quote
Romans 4:16~"Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all

Therefore it is of faith~Justification and our eternal inheritance are by the system of faith~claimed/embraced by faith as the stated evidence.  As throughout this whole fourth chapter, faith is set opposite the works of Moses’ Law; therefore, conclusions should not be drawn in this limited arena and by Paul’s limited scope to address free will, election, decisional regeneration, Arminianism, Calvinism, etc., etc. The sense in which justification or the promise is of faith is the same as the role held by works~ they are both evidence. Paul condemned works as conditions here in this chapter. Ephesians 2:8-9 in its context declares salvation to be by grace, with man hopelessly dead in trespasses and sins. What does faith serve? It is our claim and evidenceGod did not do all He could by grace but leave the results up to reprobates to exercise faith!

"That it might be by grace"~Grace means it is unconditional~a promise by sovereign Benefactor~without conditions.  God did not do all He could by grace but leave the results up to reprobates to exercise faith!

"To the end the promise might be sure to all the seed"~Any conditions for obtaining the promise would guarantee some, many, or all missing out. Arminians come up wanting here, for there is nothing sure about their plan of salvation, except that most of the seed God intended to save and tried to save will not be saved. What promise? The eternal inheritance of the elect, inclusive of all the promises to Abraham.  Since all will be saved that God intended to save (Romans 8:28-39), how was it accomplished? Because salvation is all by unconditional grace.

"Not to that only which is of the law"~How could God fulfill His promise to those following Moses’ Law? By unconditional grace! These are the Jews, being of the Law by race, nation, and creed, as distinct from Gentiles.

"But to that also which is of the faith of Abraham"The distinction here, from those just described as being of the Law, are Gentile believers. To be Abraham’s seed in this sense, Abraham must be their father, which was true (4:11).

"Who is the father of us all"~Abraham was not the father of the Jews only, which they were foolish and quick to claim and trust (Matthew 3:9; John 8:39) He was also the father of Gentile believers, which Paul had already shown (4:11-12) Paul elaborated on this fact of Gentile inclusion as Abraham’s seed (Galatians 3:29; 4:21-31

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Re: Acts 13:48
« Reply #91 on: Tue Mar 08, 2022 - 16:34:16 »
RB, You are free to continue your verse-by-verse presentation of your thoughts on Romans 4.  Some I agree with, some I do not.  And I you really want or need me to, I can go through each of your comments and point out the errors; and there are a bunch. But the point here is that NOTHING that you post can refute Paul's straightforward declaration that "Abraham believed God, and it [Abraham's belief, his faith] was counted to him as righteousness" (v,3) It was through Abraham's faith that God justified him.

..."he grew strong in his faith as he gave glory to God, fully convinced that God was able to do what he had promised. That is why his faith was "counted to him as righteousness".  But the words "it was counted to him" were not written for his sake alone, but for ours also. It will be counted to us who believe in him who raised from the dead Jesus our Lord, who was delivered up for our trespasses and raised for our justification.   (VV.20-25).

Counted as righteousness is one and the same as justified.  That is what it means to be justified.  Abraham was justified by his faith in God.  We are justified by our faith in God. It has nothing to do with evidence. It has to do with faith in God.
« Last Edit: Tue Mar 08, 2022 - 16:43:36 by 4WD »

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Re: Acts 13:48
« Reply #92 on: Wed Mar 09, 2022 - 03:32:08 »
RB, You are free to continue your verse-by-verse presentation of your thoughts on Romans 4.  Some I agree with, some I do not.  And I you really want or need me to, I can go through each of your comments and point out the errors; and there are a bunch.
Please do, I'll be finished soon~with my last post I will go in-depth on:
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Genesis 15:6~"And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness."
A statement by the Holy Ghost a "few years" after Abraham first begin to obey God:
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Genesis 11:31~"And Terah took Abram his son, and Lot the son of Haran his son's son, and Sarai his daughter in law, his son Abram's wife; and they went forth with them from Ur of the Chaldees, to go into the land of Canaan; and they came unto Haran, and dwelt there."
::pondering::

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Re: Acts 13:48
« Reply #93 on: Wed Mar 09, 2022 - 04:07:42 »
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Romans 4:17~(As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.

"(As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,)"~There is a connection here between 4:16 and the following description of Abraham’s faith.  Where is it written? It is written in Genesis 17:4-6; but read carefully for the verb tenses, for 17:4 and 17:6 use the future tense, but 17:5 uses the perfect tense, which Paul quotes here. The perfect tense (or present perfect tense) describes an action completed in the past and continuing to the present; or in other words, an action perfected in the past and still true.  We are sure of this point because Paul here argues this exact sense from the words. Modern Bibles corrupt the source passage in Genesis 17:4-6 to deny Paul’s argument here.

The Message (2002), a popular version endorsed by Rick Warren, America’s pastor as some call him, uses the future and present tenses, but not the past or the perfect tense. The Contemporary English Version (1995) uses the future tense for all three verses. The New Century Version (1991) uses the future and present tenses for the verses. Why do modern Bibles corrupt the source passage in Genesis to deny Paul’s argument here? Because they have no regard for the words of God, instead just wanting to give an idea. Because they have no regard for the doctrine of God, choosing to contradict Paul instead. Because they have the highest regard for themselves, so God turned them into fools, according to His promise (Ist Corinthians 1:19-20; 3:19-20).  Because God wants His children to know their books are not scripture, because scripture can not be broken, and these books are easily broken by this contradiction (John 10:34-35).

What are the nations referred to here, and in what sense is Abraham the father of them all?  Abram was the natural father of many nations by Ishmael, Isaac, and the sons of Keturah.  The coordinating phrase, as it is written, indicates also the father of believers from 4:16. 

"Before him whom he believed, even God'~The words, before him, describe God’s consideration of Abram as the father of the faithful, for a person or thing is in your sight when before you. In God’s view, Abram was such and such. Abraham’s faith was in God alone, the integrity of His word, and the power of His ability. What did Abram believe? The context indicates his revived fatherhood that extended from fathering Isaac by Sarah to fathering six sons by Keturah much later. Give God the glory! In this and the following verses, God gives an inspired description of Abraham’s faith that is precious for both doctrinal matters of God’s word and personal matters of life and living.

"Who quickeneth the dead'~Quicken~ To give or restore life to; to make alive; to vivify or revive; to animate (as the soul the body). There is something man cannot do, under any circumstances, for it is a divine ability and prerogative, which is only shared in the sense of man being a passive instrument in the work, as in the cases in both testaments of God resurrecting dead bodies by His ministers. God is the source of all life, and He can give or restore it as He chooses (Genesis 2:7; Deut.  32:39; Ist Samuel 2:6; 2nd Kings 5:7; Psalms 68:20; Matthew 3:9; John 11:25-27; Ist Corinthians 15:45; Ist Timothy 6:13; Revelation 1:17-18) 

Proof of Jesus Christ’s divinity was His ability to raise the dead by His power (John 5:17-30).  It is this life-giving power that works the quickening or regeneration or being born again, of sinners from a state of spiritual death in trespasses and sins (Ephesians 2:1-3; Titus 3:5; John 1:13; 3:8).  Abraham had complete confidence in God’s ability to raise the dead in any sense whatsoever. By context (4:19), he was confident God could quicken Sarah’s and his dead reproductive powers, which He did gloriously for him to father children for decades (Genesis 25:1-10). In light of Hebrews 11:12, we understand that God quickened Abraham reproductively. In light of Hebrews 11:17-19, he was confident God could easily resurrect Isaac from death. In light of pains he took for Sarah’s burial, he believed in her resurrection (Genesis 23:1-4). Rather than trust in doctors, who cannot cure a common cold, put your trust in the LORD.

"And calleth those things which be not as though they were"~Jehovah of the Bible is able to operate above verb tenses by virtue of His ability and power to accomplish and perform His purposes with absolute certainty (Daniel 4:35; Job 9:4; 34:29;40:9-12; Job 42:2; Proverbs 21:30; Isaiah 43:13; Acts 5:39; 11:17). Instead of telling Abram He would make him the father of many nations, He declared it to him as a thing already perfected in the past (perfect tense) and still true in the present. Believer, He has declared similarly of our glorification (Romans 8:28-30)! Believest thou this?

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Romans 4:18~"Who against hope believed in hope, that he might become the father of many nations, according to that which was spoken, So shall thy seed be."

"Who against hope believed in hope"~How can hope be against hope? By taking hope in a hopeless matter! Have hope, brother! Hope is usually grounded on probabilities of success based on existing abilities to perform a work, but Abraham had no such hope, for both Sarah and he were dead reproductively.  Note the timing of this particular promise, when he was 99 and she was 89 (Genesis 17:5, 17,24).  The hope of believers, as Paul will shortly explain, is sure waiting for a certainty (8:24-25)  Mankind is generally hopeless, but believers should abound in hope by the power of the Holy Ghost, for they are believers in the God of hope, Who gives hope (Romans 15:13; 5:3-5). We will not face a temptation that is uncommon and has no way of escape (Ist Corinthians 10:13).  The Bible is filled with examples and illustrations, which we commonly call Bible stories, which should build our hope in God by learning what He did for others (Romans 15:4).  How in the world could Abraham find a good wife for his son Isaac (Genesis 24:1-67)? Hannah could not conceive (she is not the only one), but God gave her Samuel and more!  Luke traveled with Paul during a terrible storm, but Paul did not lose hope (Acts 27:20-25).  More examples could and should be multiplied indefinitely and shared among believers.

"That he might become the father of many nations"~Abraham delighted in such a wonderful promise from God, as a man would (Proverbs 5:16-18) Though God declared the event as done, Abraham knew he still had to father more children. Every promise in the Bible, from child training working (Proverbs 22:6) to long life by honoring parents (Ephesians 6:2-3) and many, many, more, should be desired and laid hold of by faith.  God promised David fantastic things, and see David’s claim of them (2nd Samuel 7:11-16,25-29).

"According to that which was spoken, So shall thy seed be"~Harking back to the earlier promise, Abraham knew his seed would be numerous (Genesis 15:5).   Paul by the Holy Spirit here shows us that Abraham’s faith was the same in both places.  Paul by the Holy Spirit here shows us that Abraham tied both promises together in faith. When we have God’s word, we should not need anything else for our faith and hope.

Offline Bemark

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Re: Acts 13:48
« Reply #94 on: Wed Mar 09, 2022 - 04:16:20 »
The passage is not about who will or will not accept the free gift.  It is about the distinction between the effect of Adam's disobedience and the effect of Jesus' obedience. While the effect of Adam's disobedience was, as nearly all would agree, original sin.  What the effect of Jesus' obedience is, as so many don't understand, is to nullify the effect of Adam's disobedience. In other words were it not for Jesus' obedience all would be born sinners; but because of Jesus' obedience, all are born righteous.  What happens after that in the lives of all men is that they sin and become sinners. Rom 5:12  Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned--

Death entered the world through the one man, Adam, but it did not spread to all men because of Adam; rather it spread to all men because all men sinned.  Whether one receives eternal life or eternal condemnation depends, not on Adam, but on the one himself.
Well lets see what the difference is shall we..if we can see a difference then we can say ...well maybe it really does matter

Adam to today . All born from Adam and Eve. all sin , prone to it. The proof is there is none righteous not one? includes the tiny babies, but didn't Jesus Christ come from the same stock? Did Gods word include him?

no because there was a difference . He was not born by a man . He did not come form Adam. He was form above made lower than the angels.

He nullified the effects of Adam on the Cross , when we  died with him and was resurrected with him. We are only ever made righteous by the blood of the lamb. This is why he came . to bring us back to the father. This is the plan of the father , lived out fully by his son. to bring many sons and daughters into his kingdom. We are made righteous by HIS WORKS .
« Last Edit: Wed Mar 09, 2022 - 04:20:50 by Bemark »

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Re: Acts 13:48
« Reply #95 on: Wed Mar 09, 2022 - 04:26:43 »
When God ordered the first born to be killed .....innocent?  . How does that work before his holy angels . A just God.

They was guilty .....sinful in nature  . blemished

He could never have issued this order if they was sinless .

Our God is a holy God . In him is no darkness. The one who ordered the death of man women and child

There was sin and his judgement was righteous
« Last Edit: Wed Mar 09, 2022 - 04:32:33 by Bemark »

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Re: Acts 13:48
« Reply #96 on: Wed Mar 09, 2022 - 04:30:23 »
Sin is not just transgression its inequity the bent desire to do wrong. From the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. seed from the fruit in us. waiting to grow

That entered mankind through Adam. Not in Christ. Satan is coming but he has nothing in me

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Re: Acts 13:48
« Reply #97 on: Wed Mar 09, 2022 - 05:06:08 »
Adam to today . All born from Adam and Eve. all sin , prone to it. The proof is there is none righteous not one? includes the tiny babies, but didn't Jesus Christ come from the same stock? Did Gods word include him?

no because there was a difference . He was not born by a man . He did not come form Adam. He was form above made lower than the angels.
Mary was from Adam, therefore Jesus was from Adam.

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Re: Acts 13:48
« Reply #98 on: Wed Mar 09, 2022 - 05:13:03 »
Who was Jesus Father 4WD?

Who did Jesus say his father was on earth?


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Re: Acts 13:48
« Reply #99 on: Wed Mar 09, 2022 - 05:24:03 »
All mighty God

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Re: Acts 13:48
« Reply #100 on: Wed Mar 09, 2022 - 05:29:29 »
God breathed his breath into mankind and he became a living soul

Then we Have Jesus the express image of FATHER GOD

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Re: Acts 13:48
« Reply #101 on: Wed Mar 09, 2022 - 05:32:46 »
This is why he alone is worthy. There is NONE  like him.
« Last Edit: Wed Mar 09, 2022 - 05:38:10 by Bemark »

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Re: Acts 13:48
« Reply #102 on: Wed Mar 09, 2022 - 06:14:52 »
[b]"For if they which are of the law be heirs"~[/b]Paul left circumcision to argue against Moses’ Law having a role in promises to Abraham.  He will propose our eternal inheritance by the Law and prove it not so by the consequences. Who are those of the Law? The Jews, who were given Moses’ Law on Sinai by God Himself~and any system that requires work from the sinner in order for the sinner to inherit eternal life~ANY WORK whereby the sinner has an ACTIVE part in, be whatsoever that work be if required before a sinner can be saved from sin and condemantion.
Paul declared that all who do not know God and those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus will end up, when Jesus returns, suffering the punishment of the eternal destruction (2 Thess 1:5-9):This is evidence of the righteous judgment of God, that you may be considered worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are also suffering-- since indeed God considers it just to repay with affliction those who afflict you, and to grant relief to you who are afflicted as well as to us, when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels in flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might,

This means of course that those who do obey the gospel will not suffer the punishment of eternal destruction; that is they will be saved from eternal destruction and will instead be rewarded with eternal life. To obey the gospel is clearly a work.  It is not a work of Law, but it is a work.  Obeying the gospel is doing something. Therefore it is apparent that you are wrong when you say that Paul, speaking against work of Law for salvation,  is speaking about "and any system that requires work from the sinner in order for the sinner to inherit eternal life~ANY WORK whereby the sinner has an ACTIVE part in".

Peter echoes that same sentiment in 1 Pet 4:17 where he says For it is time for judgment to begin at the household of God; and if it begins with us, what will be the outcome for those who do not obey the gospel of God?


Most certainly justification comes by faith and not by the law.  But that does not rule out the requirement, the conditions, the obedience to the gospel that are necessary for justification. And that, of course, flies in the face of your soteriology.  Abraham's faith, his belief in God, was not a work of law; our faith, our belief in God, is not a work of law. It is a pity that you do not understand that. You go on and on in your diatribe against the law as a means for justification. But you fail to understand the difference between a work of the law and conditions for receiving justification.  Clearly, according to both Paul and Peter, it is necessary to obey the gospel; and that is doing something; doing what is a subject for another discussion.

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Re: Acts 13:48
« Reply #103 on: Wed Mar 09, 2022 - 06:53:09 »
"(As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,)"~There is a connection here between 4:16 and the following description of Abraham’s faith.  Where is it written? It is written in Genesis 17:4-6; but read carefully for the verb tenses, for 17:4 and 17:6 use the future tense, but 17:5 uses the perfect tense, which Paul quotes here. The perfect tense (or present perfect tense) describes an action completed in the past and continuing to the present; or in other words, an action perfected in the past and still true.  We are sure of this point because Paul here argues this exact sense from the words. Modern Bibles corrupt the source passage in Genesis 17:4-6 to deny Paul’s argument here.

Genesis 17:4

(ESV)  "Behold, my covenant is with you, and you shall be the father of a multitude of nations.

(KJV)  As for me, behold, my covenant is with thee, and thou shalt be a father of many nations.

(NASB)  "As for Me, behold, My covenant is with you, And you will be the father of a multitude of nations.

(NIV)  "As for me, this is my covenant with you: You will be the father of many nations.

(NKJV)  "As for Me, behold, My covenant is with you, and you shall be a father of many nations.

Genesis 17:5

(KJV)  Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee.

(ESV)  No longer shall your name be called Abram, but your name shall be Abraham, for I have made you the father of a multitude of nations.

(NASB)  "No longer shall your name be called Abram, But your name shall be Abraham; For I have made you the father of a multitude of nations.

(NIV)  No longer will you be called Abram; your name will be Abraham, for I have made you a father of many nations.

(NKJV)  No longer shall your name be called Abram, but your name shall be Abraham; for I have made you a father of many nations.

Genesis 17:6

(ESV)  I will make you exceedingly fruitful, and I will make you into nations, and kings shall come from you.

(KJV)  And I will make thee exceeding fruitful, and I will make nations of thee, and kings shall come out of thee.

(NASB)  "I will make you exceedingly fruitful, and I will make nations of you, and kings will come forth from you.

(NIV)  I will make you very fruitful; I will make nations of you, and kings will come from you.

(NKJV)  I will make you exceedingly fruitful; and I will make nations of you, and kings shall come from you.

Romans 5:17

(ESV)  as it is written, "I have made you the father of many nations"--in the presence of the God in whom he believed, who gives life to the dead and calls into existence the things that do not exist.

(KJV)  (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.

(NASB)  (as it is written, "A FATHER OF MANY NATIONS HAVE I MADE YOU") in the presence of Him whom he believed, even God, who gives life to the dead and calls into being that which does not exist.

(NIV)  As it is written: "I have made you a father of many nations." He is our father in the sight of God, in whom he believed--the God who gives life to the dead and calls into being things that were not.

(NKJV)  (as it is written, "I HAVE MADE YOU A FATHER OF MANY NATIONS") in the presence of Him whom he believed--God, who gives life to the dead and calls those things which do not exist as though they did;



Tell me again what your complaint is with modern translations.  I don't know where you are getting all of that: but there is no corruption in any of that.  If you see a corruption, please point it out.

Offline RB

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Re: Acts 13:48
« Reply #104 on: Thu Mar 10, 2022 - 04:26:29 »
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Romans 4:19~"And being not weak in faith, he considered not his own body now dead, whenhe was about an hundred years old, neither yet the deadness of Sara’s womb:"

"And being not weak in faith"~We should never forget God pities His children and overlooks their weaknesses in faith (Psalms 103:13-14)We should consider some of the entries in the Hall of Faith~Gideon? Barak? Samson? Moses? Etc. Both Abraham and Sarah initially laughed at this promise of God (Genesis 17:17; 18:12), but they are both listed here or in Hebrews 11:11 for their faith in this specific promise of God! Weakness in faith is marked by doubts, questions, worries, details, etc. But Abraham did not! If we have a fit or season of doubts, then we should confess our weakness, forsake our foolishness, take up the shield of faith again and believe God’s promises (Ephesians 6:16; Hebrews 11:6).

"He considered not"~It is a mark of skeptics or secret atheists to question God or consider difficulties of the Bible.  When we try figuring out how God did something or will do something, we are declaring we are an atheist, because we are foolishly forgetting our ignorance and His omnipotence.  We do not need to see photographs of Noah’s Ark to believe every fact written about it. I believe the King James Version is God’s word by faith, fruit, facts, and fools. We could hardly care less about manuscript evidence, textual criticism, or any other false science.  How did we get our canon of 66 books? … and how can we prove it? … by faith! And our enemies pertaining to the King James Version must eventually resort to the same canon faith. We cannot see a human spirit created to enter a body, and we do not see it depart to God (though we see the effects), but we believe exactly as the Bible reveals the truth of it to us.

"His own body now dead"~The Holy Spirit confirmed that the numerous seed came from a dead man (Hebrews 11:12).  Abraham continued to father children for at least another 50 years (Genesis 23:1-2; 25:1-10)! Because of his faith, Abraham did not consider how God would find and get sperm to Sarah!  When we bury dead believers, we need not consider how … because God will raise them!

"When he was about an hundred years old'~We can gather only anecdotal evidence of the potency of the patriarchs with their long lives. But we believe the record here and in Hebrews 11:12 that Abraham was dead reproductively.  Based on our knowledge of men, he would have had low testosterone levels, low desire, erectile difficulty, low sperm count, etc. In his opinion, he thought it ludicrous (Genesis 17:17).

"Neither yet the deadness of Sara’s womb"~We believe the record here and in Hebrews 11:11 that Sarah was dead reproductively.  Sarah being 89-90 years old (Genesis 17:17), the Holy Spirit declared the fact that they knew. Women typically enter menopause around mid-'50s (some sooner) and cannot bear children after that age.
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Romans 4:20~"He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong infaith, giving glory to God;"

"He staggered not at the promise of God"~The holy record has Abraham not only staggering, but falling down in laughter (Genesis 17:17). However, his overall faith in the matter is what God recorded in both testaments, repeatedly!  Do not forget God’s pity of our weaknesses (Psalms 103:13-14) … as He did Samson (He 11:32).D. When you doubt or question God’s word of any sort, you stagger in weak faith or unbelief. When God declares or promises something, we should believe it, and that should settle it!

"Through unbelief'~Unbelief is a terrible thing~you either doubt His will, His word, or His ability, or all three. We all have to some degree to our shame.

"But was strong in faith"~We all would be thankful that God judges our faithfulness by our overall life, not some weak moments in our life. Strong faith is unmoved by circumstances, laboring to trust entirely without doubts in God’s ability. How can we increase your faith? Pray for it (Mark 9:24), and read God’s word (Romans 10:17).

"Giving glory to God"~God has infinite and sufficient glory, but we give Him glory by declaring/believing in his word. When we believe God against natural considerations or reason, we glorify His great power. When we believe God can and will do what men believe to be impossible, we glorify Him
« Last Edit: Thu Mar 10, 2022 - 06:29:22 by RB »