Author Topic: Acts 13:48  (Read 3771 times)

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Offline 4WD

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Acts 13:48
« on: Sun Feb 20, 2022 - 06:21:02 »
From the Mystery Babylon topic: 
It is not to who would accept but to those who were ordained to eternal life according to the will of God which he purpose in Christ Jesus before the world begun.
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Acts 13:48~"And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed."

Let’s take a look at Acts 13:48.  It is often used to explain the Calvinist view of things.  The key issue here is the use of the word ordained or appointed.



Here is the NKJV rendering,

[b/]Now when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and glorified the word of the Lord. And as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.[/b]

The basic meaning of this word is to order, to arrange, to arrange in an orderly manner, i.e. assign or dispose (to a certain position or lot). Now let’s talk about the grammatical form of the word. The word appointed is from the Greek word tasso and is in a form that can be either middle or passive. In other words, the middle and passive voices share the same form in this tense (perfect participle). What’s the difference? The middle voice would suggest that these Gentiles appointed themselves to eternal life. The passive voice would suggest that someone else ordained them to eternal life.

The form of the word can be either middle or passive. Whether it is taken as a middle or as a passive is a matter of interpretation and that is what must be determined from the context.

Calvinists of course take it as a passive and conclude that God ordained them to eternal life in eternity past. However, there are actually good reasons to take this as a middle voice.

This exact form is used in Acts 20:13, (the only difference being the word has the prefix dia.) It is almost certainly a middle voice and should be translated, Then we went ahead to the ship and sailed to Assos, there intending to take Paul on board; for so he had arranged for himself, intending to go on foot This makes perfect sense with the grammar and context.

This reference shows that there is no reason, other than theological bias, to categorically dismiss even the possibility of the middle voice in Acts 13:48. It is at least as likely as the passive. Therefore, we should now look at the context to see which fits best, the middle or the passive. Here is Acts 13:48 with the immediate context.

38 Let it be known to you therefore, brothers, that through this man forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you,
39  and by him everyone who believes is freed from everything from which you could not be freed by the law of Moses.
40  Beware, therefore, lest what is said in the Prophets should come about:
41  "'Look, you scoffers, be astounded and perish; for I am doing a work in your days, a work that you will not believe, even if one tells it to you.'" .
42 As they went out, the people begged that these things might be told them the next Sabbath. .
43 Now when the congregation had broken up, many of the Jews and devout proselytes followed Paul and Barnabas, who, speaking to them, persuaded them to continue in the grace of God.
44 On the next Sabbath almost the whole city came together to hear the word of God.
45 But when the Jews saw the multitudes, they were filled with envy; and contradicting and blaspheming, they opposed the things spoken by Paul.
46 Then Paul and Barnabas grew bold and said, It was necessary that the word of God should be spoken to you first; but since you reject it, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, behold, we turn to the Gentiles.
47 For so the Lord has commanded us:
I have set you as a light to the Gentiles,
That you should be for salvation to the ends of the earth.
48 Now when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and glorified the word of the Lord. And as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.


Notice the contrast in this story between the Jews and the Gentiles in their response to the preaching of the Gospel (especially in verses 42-48). In verse 42, the Gentiles begged Paul to preach this to them again on the next Sabbath, one week later. In verse 43, many of the Jews and Gentile proselytes followed Paul and he exhorted and persuaded them to continue in the grace of God. This is extremely important.

We know that that week between the two Sabbaths must have been filled with much discussion because on the next Sabbath, almost the whole city came to hear Paul preach (verse 44). Paul had been exhorting all who would listen to continue in the grace of God. But when the Jews saw the multitudes coming to hear Paul, they were filled with envy, and they opposed the Gospel with blasphemy.

Now notice what Paul says to these Jews in verse 46: since you reject it and you judge yourselves unworthy of eternal life. He does not say that God judged them unworthy or ordained them to reprobation. Then in verse 47, in stark contrast we have the response of the Gentiles. Let me render it using the middle voice and note how it is in parallel with what Paul said to the Jews.

Now when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and glorified the word of the Lord. And as many as had disposed themselves to eternal life believed.

With this understanding, disposed themselves to eternal life is in parallel with and in contrast to, judged yourselves unworthy of eternal life. Both have the sense of the middle voice.

When did they dispose themselves to eternal life and what exactly does that mean? Obviously not in eternity past. The answer to when is during the previous week as they listened to Pauls exhortations, pondered the message, and discussed the Gospel as it had been preached by Paul, and as they anticipated his next message. Paul had exhorted them to continue in the grace of God. As they considered the message and counted the cost, they inclined or disposed themselves to eternal life. So when Paul preached again on the next Sabbath, they were ready to believe and embrace the message. In my opinion, that is the when and the what of this verse. And I think it makes perfect sense both grammatically and contextually.

Offline johntwayne

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Re: Acts 13:48
« Reply #1 on: Sun Feb 20, 2022 - 11:15:20 »
Great post.

Offline RB

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Re: Acts 13:48
« Reply #2 on: Fri Feb 25, 2022 - 03:38:00 »
Great post.
Johntwayne~any post is a great post if you think it supports your position~You may think it is great, but God's word may prove your understanding is not so great.

I'll give you and 4WD a chance to defend your position, but pretty sure you will not even attempt to do so~we shall see.

Offline 4WD

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Re: Acts 13:48
« Reply #3 on: Fri Feb 25, 2022 - 04:25:08 »
Johntwayne~any post is a great post if you think it supports your position~You may think it is great, but God's word may prove your understanding is not so great.

I'll give you and 4WD a chance to defend your position, but pretty sure you will not even attempt to do so~we shall see.

Defend my position??  I just did.  The position posed in the OP is in complete agreement with the whole rest of the Bible, including especially the NT presentation of soteriology.  I understand that it is against the Calvinist doctrine, but that is the whole point.

Your interpretation of Acts 13:48 stands in direct opposition to Acts 13:46. Acts 13:46 states that they rejected Paul's teaching.  Rejecting what Paul taught was a choice, a choice that you deny exists.

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Re: Acts 13:48
« Reply #3 on: Fri Feb 25, 2022 - 04:25:08 »

Offline GB

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Re: Acts 13:48
« Reply #4 on: Fri Feb 25, 2022 - 12:25:17 »
Defend my position??  I just did.  The position posed in the OP is in complete agreement with the whole rest of the Bible, including especially the NT presentation of soteriology.  I understand that it is against the Calvinist doctrine, but that is the whole point.

Your interpretation of Acts 13:48 stands in direct opposition to Acts 13:46. Acts 13:46 states that they rejected Paul's teaching.  Rejecting what Paul taught was a choice, a choice that you deny exists.

Excellent and honest examination of Scriptures, and one that aligns with the entire Bible. Jesus confirms this as well.

Matt. 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

It isn't that God rejected them because their name wasn't picked our of some secret Holy Lottery, or that HE was not able to bring them into His Righteousness. It was their choice not to "believe Moses" which led to their disbelief in Jesus.

Indeed, all "humans" in this world have a choice. We can choose to listen to Calvin, and other voices in the garden God placed us in, who quote "Some" of God's Word, or we can "yield our self" to God as instructed, and let His Word guide us.

Deut. 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

20 That thou mayest love the LORD thy God, and that thou mayest obey his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto him: for he is thy life, and the length of thy days: that thou mayest dwell in the land which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.

Paul also confirms your understanding in another place.

Rom. 2:9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

11 For there is no respect of persons with God.


The Gentiles in Acts were following Paul's instruction.

Acts 26:19 Whereupon, O king Agrippa, I was not disobedient unto the heavenly vision:

20 But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they (ALL) should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.

They "Denied themselves" and followed the Christ, as instructed. They followed the instruction to "Humble yourselves therefore under the mighty hand of God, that he may exalt you in due time".

They Yielded themselves, submitted themselves, offered themselves, to God and were blessed as Jesus said.

Luke 11:28 But he said, Yea rather, blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it.

Great honest examination of Acts 13:48 4WD. The Calvinist's out there will not think so, but the scriptures certainly agree with you.






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Re: Acts 13:48
« Reply #4 on: Fri Feb 25, 2022 - 12:25:17 »

Offline RB

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Re: Acts 13:48
« Reply #5 on: Fri Feb 25, 2022 - 13:57:56 »
Defend my position??  I just did. 
No, you have not as of yet, all you have done is presented your view and the view of most in the professing church of the twenty-first century.

Once I post (which should be tomorrow,) then you can defend your understanding~maybe johntwayne, and GB will help you, for I'm pretty sure you will need all the help you can get and will still come up short my friend.

I'm tired at the moment and going to rest and watch a little of the fake news, or the news they want us to hear and believe. God forgive me for wasting my time in doing so.

We need to pray for the innocent souls in Ukraine and Russia~may God in his wrath remember MERCY!
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Habakkuk 3:2~"O LORD, I have heard thy speech, and was afraid: O LORD, revive thy work in the midst of the years, in the midst of the years make known; in wrath remember mercy".

Offline RB

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Re: Acts 13:48
« Reply #6 on: Fri Feb 25, 2022 - 14:06:40 »
Excellent and honest examination of Scriptures, and one that aligns with the entire Bible. Jesus confirms this as well.
It may have been done with an honest spirit, but far from being excellent.

GB, why do you not also contribute to this thread to show me why should I believe you would even know the difference between an excellent examination of the scriptures one poorly done? Pretty sure you would not know.

GB, the scriptures you quoted above are the same ones you have repeated over and over again, and we have addressed them each time you quoted them. You do know that we have 66 books in our Bible~ maybe you should get familiar with them.

Offline GB

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Re: Acts 13:48
« Reply #7 on: Fri Feb 25, 2022 - 18:42:30 »
It may have been done with an honest spirit, but far from being excellent.

GB, why do you not also contribute to this thread to show me why should I believe you would even know the difference between an excellent examination of the scriptures one poorly done? Pretty sure you would not know.

GB, the scriptures you quoted above are the same ones you have repeated over and over again, and we have addressed them each time you quoted them. You do know that we have 66 books in our Bible~ maybe you should get familiar with them.

I was responding to 4WD's post. It was his post, not mine. He presented some Scriptures, and a short study. I agree with his conclusions, and I added just a little bit to his study which shows the rest of the Bible agrees with his conclusion as well..

I could have continued to post scriptures and filled the entire thread with page and page of Holy Scriptures, many I have posted before, which confirm the undisputable truth that 4WD concluded about the message of God to us through Acts 13. But it is his thread. I only wanted to show support for what he concluded, as I have also concluded the same thing, based, not on some popular religious philosopher, like Calvin, but based on the entire teaching of the Holy Scriptures themselves.

You are a Calvinist. You are not allowed to agree with any understanding of scriptures which doesn't promote your Calvinist religious philosophy. That is why I knew you could not agree to his conclusion, or the "many" Scriptures which support his conclusion.

AS far as you "Addressing" the scriptures I post, All you have ever done is promote the Calvinist's view of them. A one trick pony. And you have done a very good job at providing the perspective of a Calvinist. Much in the same way a JW would promote and define the perspective of the Jehovah's Witness. But 4WD was examining and explaining what the actual Bible says. He was "Seeking" truth from Scriptures, not promoting a certain religious franchise, or the views of some popular religious philosopher like Russell, or Calvin, or Smith or White, etc..

For this reason, I replied to his thread to let him know that others have also concluded, through study, the same thing he did regarding Acts 13.

I don't expect you to understand Red. But I am saying it anyway.



 

Offline RB

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Re: Acts 13:48
« Reply #8 on: Sat Feb 26, 2022 - 04:38:32 »
I was responding to 4WD's post. It was his post, not mine.
I understood that you were only responding in agreement to 4WD's post~I have no problem following posts of others, at least not now, maybe as I get older I may.
Quote from: GB on: Yesterday at 18:42:30
You are a Calvinist.
GB, if you think I'm a Calvinist, then you do not understand Calvinism as far as its core teachings. John Calvin did teach unconditional election of grace, yet there were many before him that taught the same~even Martin Luther who was a contemporary of Calvin for a short time, being before Calvin twenty-five years or so taught the same and wrote a book against freewill in his debate with Erasmus (1467-1536) and Luther (1483-1546).

I'm what is considered a "high Calvinist" if you fill compel to give tag upon a person's teaching in opposition to what may others teach like your "high Arminianism".

And truly everyone can fall into one of those two camps with a little tweeting concerning their overall teaching. An age-old battle.
Quote from: GB on: Yesterday at 18:42:30
You are not allowed to agree with any understanding of scriptures which doesn't promote your Calvinist religious philosophy.
Well sir, you are dead wrong, I'm the Lord's FREEMAN, I belong to no sect or denomination!
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That is why I knew you could not agree to his conclusion, or the "many" Scriptures which support his conclusion.
Well, lay those many scriptures on the table and let us test them with the word of God.
Quote from: GB on: Yesterday at 18:42:30
All you have ever done is promote the Calvinist's view of them.
GB, I see you are still having trouble telling the truth.  I can quote per verbatim the word of God and you will accuse me of promoting Calvinism~we shall see very shortly if I'm being truthful.
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I don't expect you to understand Red. But I am saying it anyway.
One of us for sure does not understand, stay and debate and let the word of God reveal who is without an understanding of God's truth.

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Re: Acts 13:48
« Reply #8 on: Sat Feb 26, 2022 - 04:38:32 »

Offline 4WD

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Re: Acts 13:48
« Reply #9 on: Sat Feb 26, 2022 - 05:39:58 »
Once I post (which should be tomorrow,) then you can defend your understanding~maybe johntwayne, and GB will help you, for I'm pretty sure you will need all the help you can get and will still come up short my friend.
I will anxiously await your post.
No, you have not as of yet, all you have done is presented your view ......
I could certainly say the same thing to you.  As I have said in the past, anything that you post other than an absolute quotation of scripture is simply your view; that, of course is true of everyone. I understand that you do not see it that way, but that is fact.




Offline GB

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Re: Acts 13:48
« Reply #10 on: Sat Feb 26, 2022 - 07:03:05 »
I understood that you were only responding in agreement to 4WD's post~I have no problem following posts of others, at least not now, maybe as I get older I may. GB, if you think I'm a Calvinist, then you do not understand Calvinism as far as its core teachings. John Calvin did teach unconditional election of grace, yet there were many before him that taught the same~even Martin Luther who was a contemporary of Calvin for a short time, being before Calvin twenty-five years or so taught the same and wrote a book against freewill in his debate with Erasmus (1467-1536) and Luther (1483-1546).

I'm what is considered a "high Calvinist" if you fill compel to give tag upon a person's teaching in opposition to what may others teach like your "high Arminianism".

Like I said, You are a Calvinist. You filter all Scriptures through Calvinism. 4WD, in this thread, didn't do that. He filtered his understanding of Acts 13, through the rest of the Holy scriptures. He didn't rely on some random religious philosopher of this world to mold or influence his belief regarding Acts 13. He placed his faith in the Word's of the Holy scriptures, and let them define God's meaning for him. This is the same study tactic I have used for 30 years. But in doing this, his conclusion will always be counter to some popular religious philosopher, in this case Calvin, which will always put him at odds with their followers, in this case you.

I am not influenced by these popular religious philosophers any longer, but I understand you must say so to provide cover for your ego.

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And truly everyone can fall into one of those two camps with a little tweeting concerning their overall teaching. An age-old battle.Well sir, you are dead wrong, I'm the Lord's FREEMAN, I belong to no sect or denomination!

Yes, an age old battle.

John 8:33 They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free?

Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.

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Well, lay those many scriptures on the table and let us test them with the word of God.  GB, I see you are still having trouble telling the truth.  I can quote per verbatim the word of God and you will accuse me of promoting Calvinism~we shall see very shortly if I'm being truthful. One of us for sure does not understand, stay and debate and let the word of God reveal who is without an understanding of God's truth.

I just watched 4WD do this very same thing you are suggesting, and you can't accept it because the conclusion of his honest examination of Scriptures, counters the foundational provision of Calvinism. And you do promote Calvinism Red, everyone knows it. Instead of denying this truth, why not just own it?



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Re: Acts 13:48
« Reply #11 on: Sat Feb 26, 2022 - 07:28:31 »


I'm what is considered a "high Calvinist" if you fill compel to give tag upon a person's teaching in opposition to what may others teach like your "high Arminianism".



 ::eatingpopcorn:

Offline RB

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Re: Acts 13:48
« Reply #12 on: Sat Feb 26, 2022 - 08:02:27 »
I am not influenced by these popular religious philosophers any longer, but I understand you must say so to provide cover for your ego.
Oh, but you are, and can be seen in the very scriptures you quoted.
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John 8:33~"They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free?"
Your spiritual fathers taught just as you do! These blinded Pharisees said they were never in bondage, when the Lord Jesus said:
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John 8:32~"And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free."
How blind were they! Everyman is born in sins and a servant of sin UNTIL he is made free by the power of God alone. Not only that, Israel was in bondage to the Egyptians, and other nations throughout their history, and even as they spoke these words to Christ were in bondage to the Romans! 

You and others reject the truth that fallen man is in bondage to sin and the devil and MUST be set free by the power of God at the new birth by the Spirit of God~BEFORE he is able to please God. 

More later~I'm working on an answer for 4WD and you can answer as well, the more the better. I have put it off until after some meetings I have today. But it is coming, trust me.

Btw, we ALL have an ego, just the new man in Christ can rules his flesh, so that, he confesses his weak, sinful works during his best and most holy duties are mixed with sins~which causes him to trust only in the righteousness of Jesus Christ, as his only hope of entering into life eternal. 
« Last Edit: Sun Feb 27, 2022 - 03:52:01 by RB »

Offline RB

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Re: Acts 13:48
« Reply #13 on: Sun Feb 27, 2022 - 07:28:05 »
Let’s take a look at Acts 13:48.
Let us do so.
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  It is often used to explain the Calvinist view of things.  The key issue here is the use of the word ordained or appointed.
"Often" ? Also, it is not used to explain the Calvinistic view~, but being there, its meaning can easily be supported by other scriptures if one was not so biased against the truth~ Besides, the Calvinists did not write the word of God, the Spirit of God did~and It was his sovereign purpose to use words as he did to teach the children of God His truth. 

Let us take a look at Acts 13 in the context in which it is used.
Quote from: THE HOLY GHOST
Acts 13:38-48~"Be it known unto you therefore, men and brethren, that through this man is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins: And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses. Beware therefore, lest that come upon you, which is spoken of in the prophets; Behold, ye despisers, and wonder, and perish: for I work a work in your days, a work which ye shall in no wise believe, though a man declare it unto you. And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath. Now when the congregation was broken up, many of the Jews and religious proselytes followed Paul and Barnabas: who, speaking to them, persuaded them to continue in the grace of God. And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God. But when the Jews saw the multitudes, they were filled with envy, and spake against those things which were spoken by Paul, contradicting and blaspheming. Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles. For so hath the Lord commanded us, saying, I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth. And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed."
4WD, you spent wasted time (I read Jack Cottrell's small article from whence you took your thoughts~ http://jackcottrell.com/?p=331 ) trying to prove the word ordained does not mean what it DOES mean. The word ordained means to APPOINT based upon God's use of the word in all thirty-seven times used in the scriptures~I could give each reference to prove this but you and others can read each one as I have done this morning~not once is it used to teach as you would have others to believe when you said:
Quote from: 4WD Sun Feb 20, 2022 - 06:21:02
The basic meaning of this word is to order, to arrange, to arrange in an orderly manner, i.e. assign or dispose (to a certain position or lot). Now let’s talk about the grammatical form of the word. The word appointed is from the Greek word tasso and is in a form that can be either middle or passive. In other words, the middle and passive voices share the same form in this tense (perfect participle). What’s the difference? The middle voice would suggest that these Gentiles appointed themselves to eternal life. The passive voice would suggest that someone else ordained them to eternal life.
Forget about giving a lesson on a language which many Greeks living today would know very little of when all one needs to do is use God's word and let Him reveal how He uses His own words~the Bible will guide us without a history on a language we know nothing about nor do any of us speak and even if we did, it would never change the sense in which God's uses words in his scriptures.  By the time Jack Cottrell was finished with his short article, he destroyed the very meaning of the word ordained and truly did no justice to other of his points in attempting to explain what Calvinism believes.

How foolish and wicked we might add to think that by man's righteous works he can ordain himself to eternal life. So many scriptures speak against such a wicked doctrine which we may give later.

Do I need to provide the thirty-seven times the word is used in the scriptures to prove just how it is used? If one is truly concerned about knowing the truth., let him look up the word each time it is used in the Holy scriptures.
Quote from: 4WD Sun Feb 20, 2022 - 06:21:0
The form of the word can be either middle or passive. Whether it is taken as a middle or as a passive is a matter of interpretation and that is what must be determined from the context.
4WD, we will not disagree with what you are saying~yet, when it comes to man and his salvation from sin and condemnation, without question man is PASSIVE, for it is impossible for man to do any works in the flesh apart from the indwelling Spirit of God that can acceptable and pleasing to God, especially knowing man by nature is at enmity against God~scriptures we can look at later.
Quote from: 4WD Sun Feb 20, 2022 - 06:21:0
Calvinists of course take it as a passive and conclude that God ordained them to eternal life in eternity past. However, there are actually good reasons to take this as a middle voice.
We take it based upon the context and the scripture's use of the word 37 times, where it is used passively each time.

Ordaining=appointed always when used in the scriptures 37 times has reference to the person doing the ordaining=apponting, never is it used in reference to the person who is appointed, as you and others desperately attempt to make this to be~ but ordained is without an exception used as the sovereign choice of the person doing the ordaining. 

The bottom line of your doctrine has man BY HIS GOOD WORKS appointing HIMSELF to eternal life~so many errors follow such wicked teachings. We shall consider them as we move on.
Quote from: 4WD Sun Feb 20, 2022 - 06:21:0
Notice the contrast in this story between the Jews and the Gentiles in their response to the preaching of the Gospel (especially in verses 42-48). In verse 42, the Gentiles begged Paul to preach this to them again on the next Sabbath, one week later. In verse 43, many of the Jews and Gentile proselytes followed Paul and he exhorted and persuaded them to continue in the grace of God. This is extremely important.
I love context, so, let us check this out very closely shall we?
Quote from: 4WD Sun Feb 20, 2022 - 06:21:0
We know that that week between the two Sabbaths must have been filled with much discussion because on the next Sabbath, almost the whole city came to hear Paul preach (verse 44). Paul had been exhorting all who would listen to continue in the grace of God. But when the Jews saw the multitudes coming to hear Paul, they were filled with envy, and they opposed the Gospel with blasphemy.

Now notice what Paul says to these Jews in verse 46: since you reject it and you judge yourselves unworthy of eternal life. He does not say that God judged them unworthy or ordained them to reprobation. Then in verse 47, in stark contrast we have the response of the Gentiles. Let me render it using the middle voice and note how it is in parallel with what Paul said to the Jews.
Let us consider these scriptures carefully:
Quote from: THE HOLY GHOST
Acts 13:38-48~"Be it known unto you therefore, men and brethren, that through this man is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins: And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses. Beware therefore, lest that come upon you, which is spoken of in the prophets; Behold, ye despisers, and wonder, and perish: for I work a work in your days, a work which ye shall in no wise believe, though a man declare it unto you. And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath. Now when the congregation was broken up, many of the Jews and religious proselytes followed Paul and Barnabas: who, speaking to them, persuaded them to continue in the grace of God. And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God. But when the Jews saw the multitudes, they were filled with envy, and spake against those things which were spoken by Paul, contradicting and blaspheming. Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles. For so hath the Lord commanded us, saying, I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth. And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed."
I'm pretty you and men like GB, johntwayne, and a host of others, do not consider the entire words the Holy Ghost.

"Be it known unto you therefore, men and brethren, that through this man is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins"~Paul concludes his sermon in Antioch with a powerful appeal to believe on Jesus (Acts 13:38-41). The message Paul brought was one of the forgiveness of sins through Jesus Christ. Forgiveness of sins legally is not through any works ( of any law of works ) on man's part but through the obedience and righteousness of Jesus Christ. What glad tidings for Jews bound up in the law for righteousness (Romans 10:4)! Forgiveness of sins is a blessing of election and predestination (Ephesians 1:3-7). Paul had the honor of announcing the word of reconciliation (2nd Corinthians 5:19). Rather than doing works the law of Moses, Paul declare full forgiveness by Christ alone.

Paul preached be ye reconciled unto God (in your minds): your sins are forgiven (2nd Corinthains 5:20). The message Paul brought was one of free justification personally claimed by faith. The law of Moses cannot justify any, but Christ has justified (Galatians 3:10-29). Justification is a sovereign act of the predestinating God (Romans 8:29-30; 5:18). NOTICE CAREFULLY PAUL'S WORDS:
Quote from: PAUL
"And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.
All that “believe” (present tense) are “justified” (perfect tense; passive voice).

We know there is certain knowledge of full justification by trusting Christ (Galatians 5:1-6). We believe in Christ to assure ourselves of justification by Him (Galatians 2:16). Yet without works, our faith is nothing more than a devil’s faith (James 2:14-26). So, GB, do not accuse us of denying works from believers for we KNOW without works our professing faith is vain~yet salvation from sin and condemnation is all of God, and those who enjoy THIS SALVATION proves it by maintaining good works.
Quote from: Paul
Beware therefore, lest that come upon you, which is spoken of in the prophets
Only those men whom God has called out of darkness into his marvelous light can and will heed those words and proven by what follows.
Quote from: Paul
"Behold, ye despisers, and wonder, and perish: for I work a work in your days, a work which ye shall in no wise believe, though a man declare it unto you. "
If this is so, and it is, then HOW will some believe? Only by it being revealed unto of the Father~Matthew 16:17; Acts 13:48, etc.  according to the teachings of Jesus Christ.
Quote
Now when the congregation was broken up, many of the Jews and religious proselytes followed Paul and Barnabas: who, speaking to them, persuaded them to continue in the grace of God. And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God. But when the Jews saw the multitudes, they were filled with envy, and spake against those things which were spoken by Paul, contradicting and blaspheming. Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.
My question to all who read these words is this: WHO made a difference between those who were filled with envy and who contradicted Paul's message of free justification through Christ and those who believed the message? God's election of grace!
Quote from: Paul
1st Corinthians 4:7~"For who maketh thee to differ from another? and what hast thou that thou didst not receive? now if thou didst receive it, why dost thou glory, as if thou hadst not received it?
Quote
1st Corinthians 1:26-31~"For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called: But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are: That no flesh should glory in his presence. But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord."
I'm not yet finished with Acts 13, more later.
« Last Edit: Sun Feb 27, 2022 - 11:52:32 by RB »

Offline RB

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Re: Acts 13:48
« Reply #14 on: Sun Feb 27, 2022 - 12:19:44 »
Quote from: THE HOLY GHOST
Acts 13:44-46~"And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God. But when the Jews saw the multitudes, they were filled with envy, and spake against those things which were spoken by Paul, contradicting and blaspheming. Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles."
God’s order for the preaching of the gospel had been to the Jews first (Acts 1:8; 3:26)~no secret here. They rejected the Word of God and judged themselves unworthy of everlasting life.

Let it be said very clearly: No man is worthy of eternal life, but these fools showed their profane hearts. Paul did not bring eternal life, and no man can, not even Jesus as man...... but rather preached the gracious means of it. Paul did He bring salvation TO LIGHT and the WORD OF it (2nd Timothy 1:10; 2nd Corinthians 5:19). As we have said many times over~the preaching of Christ manifests either existing life or death (2nd Corinthians 2:14-17).

There is only One Light: all others are only witnesses of that Light (John 1:4-9). There is only One Saviour: all others only witness of His salvation (Acts 4:12). Godly ministers must preach the sense rather than the mere sound of words. Salvation from sin and condemnation was secured by Jesus Christ for God's elect~read John 17, etc. Salvation from sin and condemnation is not based on how we hear and react to the gospel~how we hear and react will give evidence if we are in possession of eternal life or not. This is clearly seen in Acts 13:28-38 and all through the scriptures.
Quote
Acts 13:48~"And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed."
Reveals that no more, or no less believe or did not believe based on being ordained or not! Which agrees with so many others scriptures.
Quote
John 17:2~"As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him."
Saying the very same thing as Acts 13:48. Jesus had power over all flesh and he gave eternal life to AS MANY AS were ordained of God, or, as many as God gave him to give eternal life to.

Offline RB

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Re: Acts 13:48
« Reply #15 on: Sun Feb 27, 2022 - 15:51:11 »
Like I said, You are a Calvinist.
So, let me ask you~was Jesus a Calvinist in your estimation? He taught unconditional election.
Quote from: JESUS CHRIST
John 6:65~"And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father."
I have about a hundred more for you if you would just believe them. But, I'm convinced you are following the steps of your fathers in the faith in rejecting any scriptures that expose your false gospel.
Quote from: JESUS CHRIST
Matthew 11:25-27~"At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes. Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight. All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.

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Re: Acts 13:48
« Reply #16 on: Sun Feb 27, 2022 - 18:46:00 »
So, let me ask you~was Jesus a Calvinist in your estimation? He taught unconditional election.

No, not the Jesus of the Bible. The image of jesus you created, maybe so.

Matt. 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Matt. 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

Luke 13:3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

Mark 9:47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:

Matt. 5:20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

(And what was the Righteousness of the Pharisees, not according to you or your brother Jim Bakker, but according to the Jesus of the Bible.)

Matt. 15:7 Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying, 8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me. 9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.


Matt. 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

Matt. 16:24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

Matt. 13:41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; 42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

Matt. 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

Duet. 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I (He who became flesh)) have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

20 That thou mayest love the LORD thy God, (Of the Bible) and that thou mayest obey his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto him: for he is thy life, and the length of thy days: that thou mayest dwell in the land which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.

John 6:53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.

"Man shall Live By Every word which Proceeds from the mouth of God".

The jesus you created Red, with his long flowing hair and perfect profile, might be a Calvinist, and promoter of the mystery Holy Lottery that you and Jimmy Swaggert promote.

But the Jesus of the Bible, teaches just the opposite.

Luke 11:28 But he said, Yea rather, blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it.

Matt. 7:24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:

25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.

26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:

27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.

You can find a few verses that can be twisted to promote your Calvinism Red. But to call the Jesus of the Bible a Calvinist, is a new LOW even for you.





Offline RB

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Re: Acts 13:48
« Reply #17 on: Mon Feb 28, 2022 - 04:35:05 »
You can find a few verses that can be twisted to promote your Calvinism Red. But to call the Jesus of the Bible a Calvinist, is a new LOW even for you.[/size
Your post just reminded me just how deceitful you are and how you are unable to carry on an honest and biblical discourse on something as simple as addressing a simple question put to you based on your rejection of truth and you calling me a Calvinist when you never attempt to prove the scriptures I use to teach that God is sovereign and he gives grace or without the same according to his own eternal purposes which he purposed within Himself.

Sir, let us be honest, I'm not calling Jesus anything but asked you a simple question and it was this.... "SINCE you called me a Calvinist because I use certain scriptures in support of my teaching, then what is Jesus when he clearly said no less than what I have said and even a little more than what I have said thus far."~GB, if you were honest, (and it seems you have trouble with being so) then all you need to do is to take what I have posted and PROVE with other scriptures I not using the word of God correctly! That's how all debates work and you KNOW that, but your deceitful heart will not allow you to practice being honest with yourself and in dealing with others.  Shame on you. You quoted:
Quote from: GB Reply #16 on: Yesterday at 18:46:00
Matt. 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work in
Okay, what does this have to do with John 6:65 and Matthew 11:25-27? Not one thing. Those scriptures are so far removed from anything that has been said so far~ And I might add, so are the other fifteen so verses you quoted, they have not one thing to do with what we are discussing~this should prove to any seeker of the truth, that you are unable to carry on a serious and profitable Bible discussing even on simple subjects.
Quote from: GB Reply #16 on: Yesterday at 18:46:00
You can find a few verses that can be twisted to promote your Calvinism Red
GB, I find many scriptures to support THE TRUTH from God's word on the subject of Soteriology~you call it Calvinism, and that's okay with me for there are truly two main schools on the doctrine of Soteriology with a small number of men perfecting the truth. This is true on most doctrines.
Quote from: GB Reply #16 on: Yesterday at 18:46:00
You can find a few verses that can be twisted to promote your Calvinism Red
GB, why do you not at least show yourself to be noble and take what I do give and show others how I'm twisting the scriptures to teach Calvinism~noble Christians are honest and have always done what I asking you to do.
Quote from: THE HOLY GHOST
Acts 17:11~"These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so."
Quote from: THE LORD
Revelation 2:2~"I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars:"
Noble Christians try and test professors with the WORD OF GOD. Are you noble or just a liar and a fake Christian? If you hate and reject God's sovereign choice in the election of grace, then you are a fake apostle, or one sent forth from heaven. If God had not an election of grace, then NO ONE would have ever come to God on their own, impossible!
Quote from: Paul
Romans 11:1-6~"I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying, Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life. But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal. Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work."
Your system of works is another gospel based entirely on works by sinful and fallen man who is at enmity against God~which you deny and reject.   

Offline 4WD

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Re: Acts 13:48
« Reply #18 on: Mon Feb 28, 2022 - 05:22:07 »
Let us do so."Often" ? Also, it is not used to explain the Calvinistic view~, but being there, its meaning can easily be supported by other scriptures if one was not so biased against the truth~ Besides, the Calvinists did not write the word of God, the Spirit of God did~and It was his sovereign purpose to use words as he did to teach the children of God His truth. 
Yes, the word of God was indeed the work of the Holy Spirit through the various authors. But much to your chagrin, the New Testament was written in Greek.
Quote from: RB
Let us take a look at Acts 13 in the context in which it is used.4WD, you spent wasted time  trying to prove the word ordained does not mean what it DOES mean.
Actually, neither Cottrell nor I spent any time at all trying to prove anything about the word ordained. The discussion was about the word Greek word τεταγμενοι.
Quote from: RB
The word ordained means to APPOINT based upon God's use of the word in all thirty-seven times used in the scriptures~I could give each reference to prove this but you and others can read each one as I have done this morning~
It is you that wasted time trying to prove what the word ordain means.  That was not what the discussion was even about. But your believing that the Holy Spirit provided the KJV in English has completely clouded your understanding of what the Holy Spirit actually did provide.
Quote from: RB
not once is it used to teach as you would have others to believe when you said:Forget about giving a lesson on a language which many Greeks living today would know very little of when all one needs to do is use God's word and let Him reveal how He uses His own words~the Bible will guide us without a history on a language we know nothing about nor do any of us speak and even if we did, it would never change the sense in which God's uses words in his scriptures.  By the time Jack Cottrell was finished with his short article, he destroyed the very meaning of the word ordained and truly did no justice to other of his points in attempting to explain what Calvinism believes.
Again, the word ordain has nothing to do with what either of us provided. That you think it did and does is what keeps you from knowing the truth.
Quote from: RB
Do I need to provide the thirty-seven times the word is used in the scriptures to prove just how it is used? If one is truly concerned about knowing the truth., let him look up the word each time it is used in the Holy scriptures.4WD
No, you don't need to provide the thirty-seven times the word ordained is used in scriptures to prove anything because that is not even what is being discussed.
Quote from: RB
we will not disagree with what you are saying~yet, when it comes to man and his salvation from sin and condemnation, without question man is PASSIVE, for it is impossible for man to do any works in the flesh apart from the indwelling Spirit of God that can acceptable and pleasing to God, especially knowing man by nature is at enmity against God~scriptures we can look at later. We take it based upon the context and the scripture's use of the word 37 times, where it is used passively each time.
Again, my discusssion had nothing to do with the meaning and use of the word ordain or ordained.  But for what it is worth, in the KJV it appears that the word ordain and/or ordained is used 23 times. Of those 23 only about half are used in the passive tense.  The rest are used in the active tense.
Quote from: RB
Ordaining=appointed always when used in the scriptures 37 times has reference to the person doing the ordaining=apponting, never is it used in reference to the person who is appointed, as you and others desperately attempt to make this to be~ but ordained is without an exception used as the sovereign choice of the person doing the ordaining. 
Alas, it seems it has been much to long since your last English course.  What you said there is simply not true.  The word is used both in the active tense and the passive tense. But again, that is neither here nor there with regard to my OP.

I won't bother to comment on the rest of what you posted there since it does not relate directly to my discussion in the OP.  You and GB are unfortunately discussing something different.
« Last Edit: Mon Feb 28, 2022 - 05:27:49 by 4WD »

Offline RB

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Re: Acts 13:48
« Reply #19 on: Mon Feb 28, 2022 - 06:29:14 »
Yes, the word of God was indeed the work of the Holy Spirit through the various authors. But much to your chagrin, the New Testament was written in Greek. Actually, neither Cottrell nor I spent any time at all trying to prove anything about the word ordained.
Well, you both did. You spent your time showing that ordained in the Greek means disposed. You started out by saying:
Quote from: 4WD on: Today at 05:22:07
The basic meaning of this word is to order, to arrange, to arrange in an orderly manner, i.e. assign or dispose (to a certain position or lot). Now let’s talk about the grammatical form of the word. The word appointed is from the Greek word tasso and is in a form that can be either middle or passive. In other words, the middle and passive voices share the same form in this tense (perfect participle). What’s the difference? The middle voice would suggest that these Gentiles appointed themselves to eternal life.

The form of the word can be either middle or passive. Whether it is taken as a middle or as a passive is a matter of interpretation and that is what must be determined from the context.
Do you truly know how ridiculous that even sounds? The overall scriptures should tell any person with knowledge of the scriptures that no man can appoint himself to eternal life~that's just another way of bringing works into the backdoor while hoping to convince his hearer that he believes in grace and not works as a means of salvation from sin and condemnation.
Quote from: 4WD on: Today at 05:22:07
The passive voice would suggest that someone else ordained them to eternal life.
4WD, that would go against every NT epistle and the word of God overall. Every main doctrine cries out against what you have received and taught.   Ephesians chapter one for a starter. Maybe I'll come back and say more after some meetings. It's Monday morning and my plate is full and running over.

RB

Offline 4WD

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Re: Acts 13:48
« Reply #20 on: Mon Feb 28, 2022 - 06:47:23 »
You spent your time showing that ordained in the Greek means disposed.
No I didn't. I spent the time suggesting that the Greek word τεταγμενοι is best translated/interpreted in the middle voice.

Offline 4WD

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Re: Acts 13:48
« Reply #21 on: Mon Feb 28, 2022 - 07:00:43 »
The plain truth of the passage in Acts 13 is that the Jews rejected the teaching of Paul and Barnabas (v.46) while the Gentiles accepted the teaching (v.48).  What was that teaching?  Let it be known to you therefore, brothers, that through this man forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you, and by him everyone who believes is freed from everything from which you could not be freed by the law of Moses (vv.38-39).

Offline GB

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Re: Acts 13:48
« Reply #22 on: Mon Feb 28, 2022 - 07:55:52 »
The plain truth of the passage in Acts 13 is that the Jews rejected the teaching of Paul and Barnabas (v.46) while the Gentiles accepted the teaching (v.48).  What was that teaching?  Let it be known to you therefore, brothers, that through this man forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you, and by him everyone who believes is freed from everything from which you could not be freed by the law of Moses (vv.38-39).

Yes, the following "Law of Moses", which was "ADDED" because of Transgressions, "Til the SEED Should come", had become old and was ready to pass away.

Lev. 4:27 And if any one of the common people sin through ignorance, while he doeth somewhat against any of the commandments of the LORD concerning things which ought not to be done, and be guilty;

28 Or if his sin, which he hath sinned, come to his knowledge: then he shall bring his offering, a kid of the goats, a female without blemish, for his sin which he hath sinned.

29 And he shall lay his hand upon the head of the sin offering, and slay the sin offering in the place of the burnt offering.

30 And the priest shall take of the blood thereof with his finger, and put it upon the horns of the altar of burnt offering, and shall pour out all the blood thereof at the bottom of the altar.

31 And he shall take away all the fat thereof, as the fat is taken away from off the sacrifice of peace offerings; and the priest shall burn it upon the altar for a sweet savour unto the LORD; and the priest shall make an atonement for him, and it shall be forgiven him.

As Prophesied in Jer. 31 and Psalms, the manner in which sins were "forgiven" had changed. The "works of the Law" for forgiveness/justification, that the Jews were still requiring because they didn't believe Jesus was "The New High Priest", had become obsolete. They were still relying on the Covenant God made with Levi after the Golden calf.

It was now "through this man" that forgiveness was declared to them, no longer the Levite Priest who sprinkled the Blood of goats and bulls, as required by the "Law of Moses".

Rom. 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith (Belief that through "This Man" sins are forgiven) without the deeds of the law. (Levite Priests sprinkling the blood of animals on the alter)


Great topic 4WD.



Offline RB

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Re: Acts 13:48
« Reply #23 on: Mon Feb 28, 2022 - 13:32:37 »
As Prophesied in Jer. 31 and Psalms, the manner in which sins were "forgiven" had changed. The "works of the Law" for forgiveness/justification, that the Jews were still requiring because they didn't believe Jesus was "The New High Priest", had become obsolete. They were still relying on the Covenant God made with Levi after the Golden calf.
GB, to say you are blind would be an understatement~You are not only blind but you cannot hear, speak, with any understanding. Sins were forgiven in the OT just as they are in the NT, that has never changed. Have you never read so much as this:
Quote from: Paul
Romans 4:6~Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
Quote from: David
Psalms 32:1,2~"Blessed is he whose transgression is forgiven, whose sin is covered. Blessed is the man unto whom the LORD imputeth not iniquity, and in whose spirit there is no guile."
Every child of God's promises in the OT sins were forgiven even as those in the NT, to think otherwise shows a man's pure ignorance of the word of God and the gospel of Jesus Christ. Sins are forgiven by the imputation of Christ's righteousness to them in both Testaments.

What changed were those weak and beggarly elements that typified and were a shallow of things to come in the true worship of Jesus Christ post the cross. The priesthood changed and all connected with the priesthood; the place of worship changed, the location of worship forever changed; and the people of God changed to include every nation under heaven~etc., etc.   

Offline RB

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Re: Acts 13:48
« Reply #24 on: Mon Feb 28, 2022 - 13:45:09 »
The plain truth of the passage in Acts 13 is that the Jews rejected the teaching of Paul and Barnabas (v.46) while the Gentiles accepted the teaching (v.48). 
It is a fact, but far from being the truth revealed. The question that arises which should be answered is WHY THE DIFFERENCE between those who accepted and those who hated and rejected Paul's message. The election of God's grace made the difference between the two. Per 1st Corinthians chapter one 16-31 quoted above. You quoted:
Quote from: THE HOLY GHOST
Acts 13:39~"And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.
The emphasis is mine to show you how you missed precious truth. As I pointed out above with no response from either of you:
Quote from: RB
All that “believe” (present tense) are “justified” (perfect tense; passive voice).
If one believes they are ALREADY justified, proving that our faith is nothing more than clear evidence of our justification BY JESUS CHRIST'S faith and obedience.

Offline 4WD

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Re: Acts 13:48
« Reply #25 on: Mon Feb 28, 2022 - 16:39:20 »
If one believes they are ALREADY justified, proving that our faith is nothing more than clear evidence of our justification BY JESUS CHRIST'S faith and obedience.
That is simply not true. That is not what that verse says. Believing comes first.  It is believers whom God justifies. 

Rom 10:4  For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.

Rom 10:9  because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
Rom 10:10  For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved.
« Last Edit: Mon Feb 28, 2022 - 17:00:49 by 4WD »

Offline RB

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Re: Acts 13:48
« Reply #26 on: Tue Mar 01, 2022 - 04:28:46 »
That is simply not true. That is not what that verse says. Believing comes first.  It is believers whom God justifies. 
4WD, if you want to show I'm wrong in what I'm saying, then take the scripture I used to prove my point, and show me how I'm incorrectly understanding the word of God~just saying that a person is wrong, carry's no weight, and shows serious weakness in your position.

Justification is not limited to an act of God at regeneration, and very seldom used in reference to our new birth~it is seen clearly in different senses in the scriptures. Acts 13:39 comes before one's believing the gospel. Many times in the OT and NT it comes over TIME into our hearts where we see ourselves justified by the perfect righteousness of Jesus Christ~this justification takes place IN OUR HEARTS once faith takes hold of Christ alone forsaking all of our efforts to please God for our acceptance before him. Romans 4-5:2; 10:1-13.  There's also a justification take took place in the counsel of God at Jesus' resurrection~Romans 4:25.

I could write a few papers on this one subject and maybe should start another thread on this glorious subject that is like speaking in an unknown tongue to today's churchgoers of the eternal love of God for his people he chose in Christ from all eternity.
Quote from: THE HOLY GHOST
Ephesians 1:3-7~"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;"
A question for you and GB~what made it possible for Abraham to be a friend of God before Jesus died legally for his sins? There has to be an eternal sense in which God views his elect justified IN CHRIST. God has eternally loved his elect which he chose IN CHRIST before the foundation of the world. To this agrees the scriptures:
Quote from: Paul
Ephesians 2:4,5~"But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
He has never not loved his own elect. Not so with the reprobates.

The church "right after" the reformation understood this truth as well as any since the apostles~the reformation was great for the church, but only took the church so far away from Catholicism, the next generation of believers grasp hold of it much better than Luther and Calvin and others of their time. Richardson, Brine,  (ALL BAPTIST~so much different than today's Baptist) and others with them taught this truth as strongly as the apostles.
« Last Edit: Tue Mar 01, 2022 - 04:33:17 by RB »

Offline 4WD

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Re: Acts 13:48
« Reply #27 on: Tue Mar 01, 2022 - 06:21:39 »
Acts 13:39 comes before one's believing the gospel.
I honestly do not know what you are trying to say.  Act 13:39  and by him everyone who believes is freed from everything from which you could not be freed by the law of Moses. Clearly the freedom spoken of there is to the one who believes.  First believe, then be freed.
Quote from: RB
Many times in the OT and NT it comes over TIME into our hearts where we see ourselves justified by the perfect righteousness of Jesus Christ~this justification takes place IN OUR HEARTS once faith takes hold of Christ alone forsaking all of our efforts to please God for our acceptance before him. Romans 4-5:2; 10:1-13.  There's also a justification take took place in the counsel of God at Jesus' resurrection~Romans 4:25.
Here again, I do not know what you are trying to say.  Justification doesn't take place in our hearts. Justification is the single and instantaneous act of God in declaring one righteous. Rom 4:3  For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness." That was the justification of Abraham. It was the result of Abraham's believing God. It was Abraham's faith that was counted to him as righteousness; that is, God justified Abraham because of Abraham's faith in God.
Quote from: RB
A question for you and GB~what made it possible for Abraham to be a friend of God before Jesus died legally for his sins?
I just answered that.  The entire fourth chapter of Romans has answered that question. (KJV)Rom 4:22  And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness. RB, what is the "it" in verse 22 that was counted, imputed, to Abraham for righteousness? The answer is obvious; it was Abraham's faith in God.
Quote from: RB
There has to be an eternal sense in which God views his elect justified IN CHRIST. God has eternally loved his elect which he chose IN CHRIST before the foundation of the world. To this agrees the scriptures: He has never not loved his own elect. Not so with the reprobates.
And once again, I really don't know what it is that you are trying to say. I do know that you are being confused in all of this by your faulty concept of election.  Abraham believed God, that is Abraham had faith in God, and as a result God declared Abraham righteous, that is, God justified Abraham.  In justifying Abraham, Abraham became one of God's elect.  Now clearly God was not surprised by anything that Abraham did; God knew from before the world began that Abraham would believe in Him. Abraham did not believe in God because he was one of God's elect; rather, Abraham was one of God's elect because Abraham believed in Him and God knew from before the world began that he would.
Quote from: RB
There's also a justification take took place in the counsel of God at Jesus' resurrection~Romans 4:25.
You are reading this wrong. 

(KJV)  Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

(NASB)  He who was delivered over because of our transgressions, and was raised because of our justification.


The "for" in the KJV there is from the Greek διά [dia]; unlike the Greek εἰς [eis] which means unto, the Greek διά [dia] means and signifies because of, by reason of, by the occasion of.
« Last Edit: Tue Mar 01, 2022 - 06:27:36 by 4WD »

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Re: Acts 13:48
« Reply #28 on: Tue Mar 01, 2022 - 07:12:13 »
The small words prove big again.

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Re: Acts 13:48
« Reply #29 on: Tue Mar 01, 2022 - 13:50:49 »
I honestly do not know what you are trying to say.
4WD~I did not purposely go into detail, because have said this and explained myself a few times over on this very subject.

                                                                                       Let us look at FAITH and its part in the life of a child of God. PART ONE

Faith is not our savior, for many scriptural reasons. Mainly, Jesus Christ is the reason we even have faith, he secured faith for us and is the fruit of the new man that is created in us when God's Spirit births/adopts us into the family of God.

This mystery of Christ is a great mystery.  The more I am exercising herein, the more I see into it and enjoy justification by Christ alone, and more clearly see our believing cannot legally justify us. I know the power to believe is from the Spirit, who is the life of motion of our faith. The life of faith is the life of Christ living in me~ what faith is, and what it does, and wherein it differs from presumption, etc. God hath given faith to us to know, assent and believe the Truth. (Philippians 1:29; Hebrews 11:3, Acts 28:24) This encourages us to go to God for all we need. (Acts 26:18) This enables us to suffer for Christ. This enables us to not be terrified of our enemies. (Philippians 1:29,29) It makes our afflictions easy to bear. It enables us to obey. (Romans 6:17) It helps us to cleave to God, (Acts 11:23) and to His word, (Psalms 119:30,31) This helps us to hope in His mercy. (Psalms 147:11) Faith causes us to depend upon Jesus Christ alone for life and salvation. What is more necessary and useful in this life than faith? There is a light in faith, and as our blind eyes and dark understandings are enlightened~Ephesians 1:18; 5:13; so accordingly, we are filled with the fullness of God. (Ephesians 3:19) The fullness of knowledge is that perfection we are to press after. (Philippians 3:12, Colossians 2:2, 4:12) This shows us our justification to be in Christ alone. And the seeking of a further measure of knowledge is a seeking to be justified. (Galatians 2:17) Because this knowledge is that which justifies our Conscience as I said above. Faith cannot satisfy justice nor merit the pardon of the least sin. Only Christ can do that. And that exposition that gives most glory to Christ and least to man, I believe is the truth.

Faith nor unbelief can make anything true or false, nor cause the being of that which had no being before. Therefore, when Christ, by His Spirit and Word of truth, declares and reveals to a soul that all his sins are forgiven and washed away in the blood of Christ, etc., it is a certain truth, and it is “the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.” (Ist John 5:6) Therefore, seeing we are justified by Christ before we believed it, may we not believe that faith in us was either a cause or a means, or any instrument of it, but only a means of our receiving the knowledge of it, and of our enjoying the comfort of it? The gospel of John was written for this very purpose~we must consider more of this later.

That faith or anything in us is not a cause, means, or condition, required to partake of the Covenant of Grace, justification, or salvation, but only fruits and effects of the Covenant. That the Scripture holds forth justification by faith in a sense is very clear, but yet under no other consideration, but by way of evidence; (Hebrews 11:1,2) as it respects the taking away of sin from off the conscience; (the law could NOT do this!)  for indeed the debt is paid by the blood of Christ alone, and we are therefore said to be justified by His blood. (Romans 5:9) For indeed, as Christ Jesus our Lord has paid the debt, “the Lord having laid upon Him the iniquities of us all,” so does He declare this satisfaction and acceptation of us in Christ by faith. Faith is the eye of the understanding whereby the soul comes to see the great things which God the Father has prepared for them who love Him.

Many idolize their believing~(therefore their works)  They live upon it; fetch all their comfort from it and not from God in Christ. The work of faith is only to assent to the truth of what the Spirit in the word says, and receive its testimony.

We must be in Christ, before we can bear fruit; (John 15:4) therefore we must be in Christ, before we can believe; he that hath the Spirit of Christ hath Christ. We have the Spirit of Christ before we believe, therefore we have Christ before we believe. (READ Romans 8:9-11 several times so it can sink it!) Men are ordained unto eternal life before they believe. (Acts 13:48) Faith is a grace of the Covenant on God’s part to be given to those who are given to Christ; faith is given to some, that by it they may know their interest in Christ, and by it live upon Him. Faith is no condition of the Covenant, therefore they mistake who conceive faith to be a condition of the Covenant, either required on man’s part to partake of the Covenant of Grace, or given to men, and then required of them as a condition; although the Scripture expresses, that he that believes shall be saved, yet is not faith any condition of salvation; but such expressions are to be considered as a declaration to us what persons shall be saved; namely, such as believe. It is an information to such as know not who shall be saved, and if any desire to know who shall be saved; the answer is, he that believes shall be saved. (John 3:16) If faith did give us interest in Christ, when faith did not appear to act, it would appear to us, that we had no interest in Christ, and that we were not justified by him.

It is not men’s believing, but the Object of faith, that gives faith its denomination, or name, for there be divers kinds of faith; there is a natural faith; (Luke 8:13) and a divine faith, or the faith of God’s Elect. (Titus 1:1) Faith and its object is not to be separated, because faith and its object is one and the same.

It is against truth and reason to believe that by believing I make myself a son, and God my father. If I believe myself to be a King’s son, will believing it make me so? If I believe brass is gold, will it be so? He that is a Prince knows not that he is so until sometime after he is so, yet he is a son and a Prince whether he knows it or believes it or no; therefore, believing makes us not sons, but by it we see ourselves to be sons and enjoy the comfort of it by believing. (Samuel Richardson 1650) 

Some hold the act of faith is that which God accepts to Justification, but this is a mistake, because it makes Christ inferior to faith, and in ascribing such an honor to faith, they dishonor Christ, for although they do not exclude Christ wholly, yet in the act of Justification, it gives all to faith. They say, "as the act of Adam’s sin condemned him, so our act of faith justifies us.’" Adam’s sin was enough to condemn him and us, but our faith cannot save others, nor ourselves. They reply, "but we are justified by faith." Christ is called faith. “Before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.” (Galatians 3:23) “Before faith came;” which must be understood of Christ. We are justified before God in His sight only by Christ. (Romans 3:24) “My righteous servant (Christ) shall justify many.” (Isaiah 53:11) We are not justified before God by faith which is in us, but by Christ, by his blood; justified by his blood. (Romans 5:9) That which saves us is the blood of Christ; Jesus Christ hath loved us, and washed us from our sins in his blood. (Revelation 1:5)  Also we are said to be justified by faith, because it is the instrument whereby we apprehend and apply Christ our Righteousness; by faith we know ourselves to be justified. (Romans 5:1) Though faith be a grace of God, yet as it is an act, it is a work, and to be justified by it, is to be justified by a work of our own; for with the heart man believes. (Romans 10:9-10) That which justifies us, must be perfect, and so it is no act of ours; for all our Righteousness are as filthy rags, etc. (Isaiah 64:6) Not of works, least any man should boast. (Ephesians 2:9)

The Scripture says, that "Christ dwells in our hearts by faith," but where does it say, that we are in Christ by faith? The being in Christ, as in Ephesians1:4, is by election, and not by faith.  They rob Christ of the greatest part of his work and his glory, and give it to faith, and set faith in Christ's throne. And an hundred errors more may be reckoned up that will follow this opinion.

To believe that Jesus is the Christ implies a seeing and knowing all to be in Christ for life, and to trust in Him for pardon and life, and rest upon him for it. He that thus
believes in Christ, is brought over to Christ, and so centered upon Him, that he will not go from him. As Peter saith, “Lord, to whom shall we go; thou hast the words of
eternal life.” (John 6:68) “My soul, wait thou only upon God; for my expectation is from him.”
« Last Edit: Tue Mar 01, 2022 - 15:52:35 by RB »

Offline 4WD

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Re: Acts 13:48
« Reply #30 on: Tue Mar 01, 2022 - 15:29:10 »
RB, you said,
Acts 13:39 comes before one's believing the gospel.
That is what I was referring to at first when I said.
Quote from: 4WD
I honestly do not know what you are trying to say.
So again I will ask, what in the world does it mean that
Quote from: RB
Acts 13:39 comes before one's believing the gospel.
In Acts 13:39, Paul says (KJV) And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.  What is it about that that you think comes before one's believing the gospel?

It seems to me that statement by Paul just wipes away so much of what you had to say in your PART ONE above.  Paul's statement there in Acts 13 says that we are justified by faith (Rom 3:28, 5:1; Gal 2:16, 3:11,3:24).  Just as Abraham was justified by faith (Rom 4:3, 22) so we also are justified by faith (Rom 4:24).
« Last Edit: Tue Mar 01, 2022 - 15:49:26 by 4WD »

Offline RB

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Re: Acts 13:48
« Reply #31 on: Tue Mar 01, 2022 - 15:47:51 »
I'm going to address Romans four mainly dealing with Abraham. RB

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Re: Acts 13:48
« Reply #32 on: Tue Mar 01, 2022 - 15:50:26 »
Paul already did that.

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Re: Acts 13:48
« Reply #33 on: Tue Mar 01, 2022 - 15:58:26 »
Paul already did that.
Brother, that's why God calls men to teach us the sense of the word of God spoken by the prophets and apostles and Jesus Christ our Lord.

As you know I'm signing off until around four in the morning. Working with you is more a labor of love, with GB it is not so. With him, it is more out of necessity and a love for the truth. 
« Last Edit: Wed Mar 02, 2022 - 03:40:26 by RB »

Offline 4WD

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Re: Acts 13:48
« Reply #34 on: Tue Mar 01, 2022 - 18:45:02 »
Brother, that's why call men to teach us the sense of the word of God spoken by the prophets and apostles and Jesus Christ our Lord.
Well that is certainly true.  But in actuality, I think that Romans Chapter 4 is one of the most straight forward and least difficult of Paul's writings to understand.  But I will read what you have to say.  And I am sure that I will find something with which to contend.  ::smile::

 

     
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